Yes, it was something I did on the fly. I left trinket mage out because I thought with all the discard trinkets to sac Reshape might actually be better by costing the same and actually putting the fetched trinket on the field.
Here is how that list ended up looking yesterday when I got out of work (Don't tell my bosses I play at work hahaha ):
I actually got the Necrogen lock to go off yesterday on 2 of the 3 games I tested. Its so sweet when you get the complete lock, like I said you essentially end up having a time walk effect every turn for 5 mana.
The first list attempted to make the opponent discard their hand as you assemble the combo and then recurs a discard trinket for the lock. But it felt weak to slipped creatures, so modified it to include more removal (Dispatch) and just one spellbomb for the lock. Worked well enough.
Anyways, Im at work again, but I sent me my lists early before coming to work so here are my two actual lists without much explanation cause Im at work:
Since I reduced the wishlist to only the essentials I also reduced the wishes to 2. Reduced Trinket to 2 as well and will probably end up switching it to Reshape beacuse as mentioned previously, adding Faithless, thoughtcas and gitaxian, the draw feels quite good and trinket has something I always dislike, I cant play the fetched card most of the time on the same turn. I will do some serious testing before I do that switch.
Suffer the Past - This card intrigues me, it empties an opponent's graveyard at instant speed while gaining you life. It can mess up graveyard decks, but what I like is it can shut down Snapcaster Mage by responding to it and emptying their grave from targets. I have not had the opportunity to test it out yet, but I think it will be an all-star in certain games, for example what if instead of taking -2 to from Grim Lavamancer I would actually gain +2 to 8? The added bonus is that it also does 1 damage per card to opponent, which begs the question, why do U mill decks not use this card? Mill 20, Suffer the Past, 20 damage. Is that not good enough? Could this card become some sort of alternate wincon for the deck? It does everything, destroys graveyards, gains life, does damage, all for B!!! EDIT: Nevermind, I misunderstood how this card works, but I'll test it nonetheless and see how it does.
Against decks like Scapeshift, eggs, storm, etc. Leyline is awesome, but I noticed those deck can bounce it for the kill, which is why I tried my best to fit in some counters, to counter their bounce spell. So they may win game 1 without my leyline if I cant counter their scapeshift, et cetera, but game 2 with a leyline out I'd just have to counter their bounce spell.
What this version is missing is a Dispatch effect at instant speed.
Hey Zero, Ive been following this thread for awhile and am interested when designers try out different strategies.
I think for the Wishless list, Misty Rainforest should be switched for Scalding Tarn, then you can also fetch the Sacred Foundry.
If you're looking to fit a Necrogen Spellbomb, you can probably cut a Probe.
You might be trying to avoid CITP tapped lands, but a 1-of Halimar depths replacing a Darksteel Citadel might be good with the strategy.
I might have missed where you discussed it, but what was the justification for omitting 2cc? It seems like Pyroclasm would be more effecient and a little more reliable than Firespout. Also, Stoic Rebuttal will often/always be 2cc in this deck.
As another way to dig through the deck, Ancient Stirrings is a thought.
To fight through Creeping Corrosion, a couple Second Sunrise could be ok. Creeping is a real threat since it is a common card against Robots.
Im sure you have mentioned it earlier, but Nihil Spellbomb would be a good reusable graveyard hate card. Much less mana intensive than Suffer the Past.
The ensnaring bridges you had earlier does everything you want from verdict, helps out Tezz and negates the need for Effigy (Emmy is just a 15 mana time walk then).
An Ethersworn Cannonist might be good as help against Storm out of the board. They cant shoot you through Leyline, but could run you over with a pile of gobbos.
Ill build this and test with my group and get back to you.
I think for the Wishless list, Misty Rainforest should be switched for Scalding Tarn, then you can also fetch the Sacred Foundry.
I think I may give up on the wish list, modern is too fast and I need the answers within the deck.
If you're looking to fit a Necrogen Spellbomb, you can probably cut a Probe.
I've tried it, but honestly it seems by the time you can lock with necrogen you should already be winning anyways. Unless there is a way to consistently get the combo with academy going pre-lock then I may give up on that idea as well.
You might be trying to avoid CITP tapped lands, but a 1-of Halimar depths replacing a Darksteel Citadel might be good with the strategy.
I guess I could give it a shot for a few test games, but I don't see it being that much useful. This isn't a turn 3-4 win combo deck, if you don't play your hand efficiently and fast you die, CITPT lands just don't let you play your first turns as efficiently as you should or as fast.
I might have missed where you discussed it, but what was the justification for omitting 2cc? It seems like Pyroclasm would be more effecient and a little more reliable than Firespout. Also, Stoic Rebuttal will often/always be 2cc in this deck.
The no 2cc issue was initially to have a slight advantage on game 1 vs decks sporting spells like Spell Snare. It also allowed to set explosives at 2 without any harm. But pyroclasm is a spell so explosives is harmless, I updated my list and have been playing all day with pyroclasm took out spouts just to be able to play a sweeper a turn sooner. Some of us were aslo contemplating playing Chalice of the Void and being able to set it at 2 is bad for most decks in modern. But theres really nothing wrong with 2cc cards.
As another way to dig through the deck, Ancient Stirrings is a thought.
This is prefect, it has been working all day, fetches combo pieces, it even fetches lands and could find a bridge, needle or explosives in the worst case scenario.
Combined with the natural deck digging of the combo this is too valuable, auto-include. Many thanks.
To fight through Creeping Corrosion, a couple Second Sunrise could be ok. Creeping is a real threat since it is a common card against Robots.
I haven't noticed corrosions running wild, I cant recall the last time a corrosion was used against me. It just doesn't bother me enough to be on my mind as a threat but I know its a real thing.
Im sure you have mentioned it earlier, but Nihil Spellbomb would be a good reusable graveyard hate card. Much less mana intensive than Suffer the Past.
Yes. Got 3 on the sb.
The ensnaring bridges you had earlier does everything you want from verdict, helps out Tezz and negates the need for Effigy (Emmy is just a 15 mana time walk then).
Some of the guys were running the bridges, I was never really convinced, but I'm running 2 at the moment to give it a chance. Its good against affinity I can say that much from todays tests. It can also be fetched with reshape in an emergency.
An Ethersworn Cannonist might be good as help against Storm out of the board. They cant shoot you through Leyline, but could run you over with a pile of gobbos.
As with CITPT lands, I'm always skeptical of creatures that need to stay on the field to do something, they seem so fragile.
Ill build this and test with my group and get back to you.
Let us know how it goes, I'll post the list I've been running all day:
Reshape > Trinket: This is purely a change based on speed, I want to get a Lantern out ASAP. I have artifacts to sac, mox being the perfect target. You can also sac a bauble, or a codex/bell if you got two. Its been giving me better results than trinket just because the fetched piece is automatically put on the battlefield. Post midgame with 5 mana I can fetch a bridge to lock slipped in creatures from graveyards and such.
Upped the moxes to 4 to up the chances of drawing it for the early ramp. It can be sacced to reshape which allows to play extra copies you cant prevent drawing.
No planeswalkers, yes you can finish the game in a few turns with walkers, but for that you most probably need to have the lock set to protect the walkers and honestly I don't mind taking the time to actually mill my opponent with the combo. We should just concentrate on maintaining the lock instead of trying to finish 15 turns earlier, we don't have to be desperate to finish, let the opponent grow desperate trying to break free.
Intervention Pact: Unless I'm playing this wrong, it is the easiest thing to play. The opponent will need three grapeshots to kill you as the first one countered will put you out of range for the second one, so its a good card vs those kind of combos. Burn decks suddenly also lose 2 burn spells as one neutralizes the other. It also neutralizes two attacks from the creature with highest power (or creature with ability if deals damage).
I shifted the build to include a lot of removal mainboard and combo hate sb. I'm running a lot of removal to make sure I can get rid of any creature played as I set the lock or after.
Ancient Stirring is wonderful for finding pieces for the lock, its essentially UB Tezz's +1.
Sideboard:
Leyline of Sanctity, it hoses a lot of combo decks, but it needs to be backed up by something else, a smart combo player knows ways to bounce/remove your hoser. That situation could be remedied by an Intervention Pact to counter their kill spell while gainig you life. Next turn you replay your leyline if it was bounced, if it was destoryed it shouldn't matter since the opponent probably just wasted the removal he was trying to find and the kill spell he was trying to set up. Unless he had a copy of the kill spell and can get out of the lock to draw another removal spell it should be an easy mill. It kills other mill decks as well as RDW & Discard, and about half of red/black aggro/control decks. And some Planeswalker abilities, Lilly being the most annoying that comes to mind.
Beast Within, a card I've been thinking of adding all day, it was made to play with the bridges. It targets everything and we're really low on planeswalker answers. If I could up the bridge count effectively I'd also find a way to include this mainboard.
Nihil Spellbomb, needed as well. I'm going with 3 because in the games I would need it I want to make sure I get it.
Silence, it buys time and with a combo that can dig through decks, buying time is really useful. Its also funny to play it halfway through a storm.
Supreme Verdict, uncounterable sweeper, some decks just try really hard to swarm you.
Anyways, I thought the OP needed an update so I will be doing it during the week, comments on what to add are welcome.
I think I found the wincon for this deck: Beast Within
I'm running 2 at the moment, dumped the Intervention Pacts.
Beast Within serves as a get rid of anything spell pre-lock and a blow your own artifact and get a 3/3 post-lock.
With Ensnaring Bridge out you blow their permanent and the token can't attack, I'm thinking Firespout would be better than Pyroclasm to be able to control that token but I'll keep the pyros just for speed.
Previous to beast within I was trying Sands of Delirium for a more on-theme wincon with all the untapped lands post-lock. Just 1, you can fetch it or or dump it for later recursion.
EDIT: Pic - What a Beautiful sight! (He wished for a wheel of sun and moon, but it had a beast within it
EDIT2: Pic2 - With 2 codex and academy out on turn 2, I started milling myself to find a lantern, just keep milling the non-lantern cards and if you mill lantern put it back on the upkeep with academy. The deck feels so good versus creature based decks with 10 very good removal/sweeper spells to work with until a bridge drops. I think Sands is my personal pick for a wincon, just for the flavor of it.
EDIT3: Pic3 - I had to go through 3 Ancient Stirrings and 2 Faithless Looting to find my lantern. He spent his first three turns playing lands and BoP to play Gifts for Unburial and Elesh. He played unburial 4th turn and I dispatched his elesh, he attacked on his 5th turn with tarpit, then quit right after I played the lantern and he saw Ensnaring Bridge as my top card. Digging while being able to manage the early creatures until the bridge drops is key, it just shuts down every attacking strategy. It gives the lock an upgrade since you can let them draw beaters. Its too good vs nearly every deck, and it shuts down annoying manlands, I had underrated the bridge by a lot, it is now the fetch to card after the lantern.
Sorry for the repeat posts, no one has posted in over a week.
I had been working on a nice looking update for the primer for a few days, however one of my sisters got into my room and used my computer, obviously she closed the browser containing the page I was editing on. I will not spend various days again trying to recreate it, so here is a 2 hour primer update: First Post
EDIT 2 (1/12/13): Did some minor editing on the primer, added some sections and added some tags. If anyone sends me their decklist privately I will gladly add it to the primer.
EDIT3 (1/14/13): Expanded on sections of the primer. Also added a "Trolling Wincon" section. If someone would like me to add anything to the primer, just ask.
EDIT 4 (1/16/13): Expanded on the match ups section, edited numbers on the decklist, updated SB.
Just to clear up any confusion, the way you suggested using Intervention Pact against grapeshot is incorrect. It will prevent damage from one individual copy of grapeshot. The other 20 will still end up hitting you. I notice it's out of your most recent list, but just didn't want anybody led astray.
Beast Within seems like a really slow win condition. Not to mention, it's great giving decks Path to Exile, Dismember, etc, as a dead draw. I don't think turning them on helps. (Not to say Beast Within isn't good here. On the contrary. I just think winning needs something else). I like just milling them out in bigger, more liberal chunks towards the end of games.
Against Tron, I like recurring Pyrite Spellbomb with Academy Ruins (since it's harder to profitably mill decks that have Emrakul...)
I'll be trying your newest list card for card tonight. It looks solid, especially Ancient Stirrings.
I've been play testing in a local group. This deck does well for fun games, but it won't hold up to higher tier decks. Any ideas to help?
Which version have you been playing?
There isn't much talk on the topic lately but I do play with the deck 2-5 matches a day to keep refining it.
The last list is the most solid I've been able to make, but I feel there is still space for improvement.
In the end I feel the deck will look something like G/R only for consistency, but for now I'm still testing bit by bit to make sure I try anything I can think off before committing to 1 or 2 colors only.
Suggestions are always welcomed.
Quote from headly »
Just to clear up any confusion, the way you suggested using Intervention Pact against grapeshot is incorrect. It will prevent damage from one individual copy of grapeshot. The other 20 will still end up hitting you. I notice it's out of your most recent list, but just didn't want anybody led astray.
Beast Within seems like a really slow win condition. Not to mention, it's great giving decks Path to Exile, Dismember, etc, as a dead draw. I don't think turning them on helps. (Not to say Beast Within isn't good here. On the contrary. I just think winning needs something else). I like just milling them out in bigger, more liberal chunks towards the end of games.
Against Tron, I like recurring Pyrite Spellbomb with Academy Ruins (since it's harder to profitably mill decks that have Emrakul...)
I'll be trying your newest list card for card tonight. It looks solid, especially Ancient Stirrings.
The way I described Intervention Pact was that you could respond to the first Grapeshot, putting you at 40 life or more (it prevents damage AND gives you that much life) thus requiring the opponent to play 2 more grapeshots for 20 a piece to get you down from 40. I still didn't like intervention that much, felt like a dead draw most of the time.
Beast Within is not really a wincon, it can be. Its in there because it can target everything, the best next things are Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse, Decay only targets 3cc or less and none target lands. Also it is indeed sweet to let the opponent draw dead removal spells, but turning them on is not that bad, you can recur beast within back and make another token. The thing is, you never really get to do it because the opponent just concedes, which is why I mainly focus on progressively mill them with the lock. The rest are just alternate wincons that are there just in case but you never really use them as wincons.
The tron decks that give me a hard time are the ones running oblivion stone. Vs tron I usually needle karn before it even hits the field if I can, then put up a bridge to neutralize emrakul, but when a stone drops unexpectedly there isn't much you can do unless you got another needle ready to go. Milling emrakul decks is indeed hard, Pyrite Spellbomb is indeed the best way to deal with it. At one time I thought I could just let them draw emarkul and let them play it if they liked so as to prevent it from going to the grave, but then I figured the opponent can just keep it on hand along with all the draws and just discard it from their hand at EOT to get down to 7 cards.
Ancient Stirrings is beast in this deck, worst case scenario you get a land from it.
Let me know how you feel the last decklist after testing, glad to have others interested.
The way I described Intervention Pact was that you could respond to the first Grapeshot, putting you at 40 life or more (it prevents damage AND gives you that much life) thus requiring the opponent to play 2 more grapeshots for 20 a piece to get you down from 40. I still didn't like intervention that much, felt like a dead draw most of the time.
No the thing is that each copy of Grapeshot is an individual source. Grapeshot +18 copies are 19 different sources. And Intervention Pact prevents only damage from 1 source. It will only prevent 1 damage and gain you 1 life, and you will probably still die to all the other Grapeshots aimed at you.
No the thing is that each copy of Grapeshot is an individual source. Grapeshot +18 copies are 19 different sources. And Intervention Pact prevents only damage from 1 source. It will only prevent 1 damage and gain you 1 life, and you will probably still die to all the other Grapeshots aimed at you.
Oh... I overlooked that. Oh well, never really liked it that much ; )
EDIT: I'm keeping an eye on Gatecrash, from the spoiled cards I can see there are a lot of cards with abilities to manipulate the top of libraries. Very interesting, although some look as if they could help the opponent break free from the lock.
EDIT 2: From Gatecrash - Dimir Charm - Counter for sorceries, destroy creature with 2 power or less or look at target player's top 3 cards, put one back (a land) and 2 on the graveyard.
I haven't looked at the complete gatecrash pool, but I ran a quick search and from the cards that interact with the top of decks Dimir Charm is the only one that seems able to compete for its cost and top manipulation ability. As a bonus it has 2 other very useful abilities, the seond one lets me replace removal spells with this easily, the first one helps against storm (lots of sorceries), scapeshift (sorcery) and some others. I will find a way to main some of these for testing.
Meanwhile, Since the deck really only needs one color producing mana source (Mox or Glimmervoid) I've been designing a version running the urza lands. Why?
- It is an artifact deck.
- You don't need to speed into it but once active, recursion gets insane by having more than enough mana for academy and codexes and to play the recurred pieces.
- We can run a big creature a la emrakul or a mana hungry artifact like sands of delirium to eat huge chunks of their deck.
Its only been tested twice, dropped emrakul once, won by lock-concede the other.
I'm trying to think up ways to abuse the urza lands without deviating from the deck idea (which is why I though of sands of delirium) because it just seems like an overkill idea. Meaning, by the time I assemble tron I should already be winning anyways.
But again I'm just testing this as an experiment, I truly want to test this deck in a lot of ways until I'm comfortable with the build. I will do some more testing on the urza lands and let you guys know if we should shift towards it or not, or if I find some kind of interaction with something else and the lands.
Thats about it, I'll update on a decklist with Dimir Charm after I do some tests.
I'm holding on the updates and testing until gatecrash is official to include the charms. Looking forward to testing the charms, since it provides support for our combo, replaces removal easily and gives us a freebie sorcery counter which we just couldn't find a spot for and I'm hoping it will stop scapeshift decks dead in its tracks along with some others.
In other news:
- storm is no longer as consistent a deck, sweet, much easier to lock now since they take more time to prep. and i get a sorcery counter with the new charm to boot.
- jund lost the one card I hated most, bloodbraid elf. It was the only card from jund that could override the lock with the cascade ability. Confidant can let them draw, but I can take out confidant on the spot while BBE's cascade was unstoppable, potentially playing an abrupt decay or maelstrom pulse to break the lock. In fact, with a bridge down confidant is jund's deathwish, last game vs jund I had bridge out and he had 2 confidants (Which i didn't care to kill since I only needed to make them discard abrupt decay or maelstrom pulse) that took him down to 8 life, last turn took 4 from a bloodbraid with confidant and I reshaped a needle into a second pyrite spellbomb, he conceded before my upkeep.
Very interesting deck. It basically runs the same lock as my decks (Bridge + Leyline), but with a completely different victory path.
I think with a deck like this is would first start with 4 bridges and leylines then go from there.
Yes I looked at your lockdown deck a few times when looking for ideas but I wanted to stay as far away from creatures or planeswalkers as possible. My lock relies more on bridge to nullify attacks and lantern combo to prevent threats from being drawn. Leyline usually comes out of the sideboard when needed because as good as it is, in the games where I don't need it it feels like a really really bad dead draw. I've tried running it main in different numbers, it just doesn't feel like it should be mained.
I do think I should be running 4 bridge because it just kills decks, however, I'm running 3 because I can't cut stuff out easily and since the deck has a really good digging engine I can get to one of the bridges easily (ancient stirrings, faithless looting w/flashback, reshape, combo for digging, pyrite's cycle, recur from grave, etc)
Yeah, there is no space for it, and it isn't very useful even if you can fix your top card.
Counters work against our tempo sadly, Dimir Charm is the only counter we can run, simply because its a charm and it does other stuff.
My latest list is slightly modified, runs only 2 charms and 2 more on the SB. I currently have one card spot free, so I'm toying around with different wincons lately just for fun. The SB has been revamped, but SBs are meta dependent so I won't post it.
The only thing going on now is that I'm keeping track of matches with a stat table on Excel. I will post win % versus deck types as soon as I have enough matches done, last time I checked it had 12 matches tracked winning 100% of the matches (RDW, Jund, Affinity and Ubr Control being the only tiers, the rest were brews or random decks), sadly I just moved a week ago and am waiting for an internet connection, so the tests have been on hold for a few days.
Deck is still open for ideas, keep them coming cause I feel there is a sleeper in the modern pool that will break this deck open at any time.
Decklists are welcome to be posted on the primer's member decklist section, so if you got a different version just send it to me.
Since I haven't seen it mentioned Hedron Crab can also help you with the mill and I want to wonder why no counterbalance? It would work if you are willing to sacrifice a card or mill a card for it.
Yeah, there is no space for it, and it isn't very useful even if you can fix your top card.
Counters work against our tempo sadly, Dimir Charm is the only counter we can run, simply because its a charm and it does other stuff.
My latest list is slightly modified, runs only 2 charms and 2 more on the SB. I currently have one card spot free, so I'm toying around with different wincons lately just for fun. The SB has been revamped, but SBs are meta dependent so I won't post it.
The only thing going on now is that I'm keeping track of matches with a stat table on Excel. I will post win % versus deck types as soon as I have enough matches done, last time I checked it had 12 matches tracked winning 100% of the matches (RDW, Jund, Affinity and Ubr Control being the only tiers, the rest were brews or random decks), sadly I just moved a week ago and am waiting for an internet connection, so the tests have been on hold for a few days.
Deck is still open for ideas, keep them coming cause I feel there is a sleeper in the modern pool that will break this deck open at any time.
Decklists are welcome to be posted on the primer's member decklist section, so if you got a different version just send it to me.
Mostly I've been testing Etherwrought Page and I'm loving it, life gain, deck digging or deal damage each turn.
Also switching between:
Sands of Delirium to dump free mana on the late game Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas cause it's been discussed how much it synergizes with the deck Thopter Foundry for a bit of lifegain and free tokens post-lock (draw, attack, play drawn card to reactivate bridge)
Its a free slot on a deck that needs no win cons, so you can test anything you feel like, pick a win con of your choice and give it a try, remember you can dump it early game and recur it back late game to finish. Also, pick something well costed, otherwise your opponent will quit from the lock before you play your trump card.
Here is how that list ended up looking yesterday when I got out of work (Don't tell my bosses I play at work hahaha ):
4 Glimmervoid
4 Misty Ranforest
4 Steam Vents
2 Academy Ruins
2 Buried Ruins
1 Godless Shrine
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Ghoulcaller's Bell
4 Codex Shredder
3 Mishra's Bauble
3 Mox Opal
2 Engineered Explosive
1 Necrogen Spellbomb
4 Faithless Looting
4 Thoughtcast
3 Pyroclasm
3 Stoic Rebuttal
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Dispatch
2 Firespout
No trinket mage or Reshape and just one Necrogen Spellbomb. Thoughtcast, Faithless Looting and Gitaxian Probe seem a good enough drawing engine now that I'm running Firespout, Pyroclasm, Dispatch and Stoic Rebuttal combined with the discard effects.
I actually got the Necrogen lock to go off yesterday on 2 of the 3 games I tested. Its so sweet when you get the complete lock, like I said you essentially end up having a time walk effect every turn for 5 mana.
The first list attempted to make the opponent discard their hand as you assemble the combo and then recurs a discard trinket for the lock. But it felt weak to slipped creatures, so modified it to include more removal (Dispatch) and just one spellbomb for the lock. Worked well enough.
Anyways, Im at work again, but I sent me my lists early before coming to work so here are my two actual lists without much explanation cause Im at work:
2 Academy Ruins
2 Marsh Flats
2 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple Garden
2 Trinket Mage
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Codex Shredder
4 Ghoulcaller's Bell
3 Mox Opal
3 Mishra's Bauble
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Faithless Looting
3 Stoic Rebuttal
3 Thoughtcast
3 Pyroclasm
2 Firespout
2 Glittering Wish
3 Suffer the Past
2 Pithing Needle
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Dreadbore
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sundering Growth
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Since I reduced the wishlist to only the essentials I also reduced the wishes to 2. Reduced Trinket to 2 as well and will probably end up switching it to Reshape beacuse as mentioned previously, adding Faithless, thoughtcas and gitaxian, the draw feels quite good and trinket has something I always dislike, I cant play the fetched card most of the time on the same turn. I will do some serious testing before I do that switch.
Suffer the Past - This card intrigues me, it empties an opponent's graveyard at instant speed while gaining you life. It can mess up graveyard decks, but what I like is it can shut down Snapcaster Mage by responding to it and emptying their grave from targets. I have not had the opportunity to test it out yet, but I think it will be an all-star in certain games, for example what if instead of taking -2 to from Grim Lavamancer I would actually gain +2 to 8? The added bonus is that it also does 1 damage per card to opponent, which begs the question, why do U mill decks not use this card? Mill 20, Suffer the Past, 20 damage. Is that not good enough? Could this card become some sort of alternate wincon for the deck? It does everything, destroys graveyards, gains life, does damage, all for B!!! EDIT: Nevermind, I misunderstood how this card works, but I'll test it nonetheless and see how it does.
Against decks like Scapeshift, eggs, storm, etc. Leyline is awesome, but I noticed those deck can bounce it for the kill, which is why I tried my best to fit in some counters, to counter their bounce spell. So they may win game 1 without my leyline if I cant counter their scapeshift, et cetera, but game 2 with a leyline out I'd just have to counter their bounce spell.
What this version is missing is a Dispatch effect at instant speed.
Here is the wishless list to which I want to fit a Necrogen Spellbomb:
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Academy Ruins
2 Darksteel Citadel
2 Island
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Trinket Mage
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Codex Shredder
4 Ghoulcaller's Bell
3 Mox Opal
3 Mishra's Bauble
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Firespout
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Stoic Rebuttal
3 Thoughtcast
2 Dispatch
2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Suffer the Past
2 Pithing Needle
2 Dispatch
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Stoic Rebuttal
1 Brittle Effigy
No Pyroclasm, since I'm not playing the wishes here I wanted to stay true to the no 2cmc rule.
The only card I don't like on the sb is Brittle Effigy, but its there as a guarantee vs Emrakul decks.
Well, I gotta get working before the bosses get here, so I cant give more explanations.
What do you guys think about all these?
EDIT: Vengeful Pharaoh would be sweet vs manlands and probably flashed in creatures at EOT. But how would you fit it in? out of the SB?
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
I think for the Wishless list, Misty Rainforest should be switched for Scalding Tarn, then you can also fetch the Sacred Foundry.
If you're looking to fit a Necrogen Spellbomb, you can probably cut a Probe.
You might be trying to avoid CITP tapped lands, but a 1-of Halimar depths replacing a Darksteel Citadel might be good with the strategy.
I might have missed where you discussed it, but what was the justification for omitting 2cc? It seems like Pyroclasm would be more effecient and a little more reliable than Firespout. Also, Stoic Rebuttal will often/always be 2cc in this deck.
As another way to dig through the deck, Ancient Stirrings is a thought.
To fight through Creeping Corrosion, a couple Second Sunrise could be ok. Creeping is a real threat since it is a common card against Robots.
Im sure you have mentioned it earlier, but Nihil Spellbomb would be a good reusable graveyard hate card. Much less mana intensive than Suffer the Past.
The ensnaring bridges you had earlier does everything you want from verdict, helps out Tezz and negates the need for Effigy (Emmy is just a 15 mana time walk then).
An Ethersworn Cannonist might be good as help against Storm out of the board. They cant shoot you through Leyline, but could run you over with a pile of gobbos.
Ill build this and test with my group and get back to you.
I think I may give up on the wish list, modern is too fast and I need the answers within the deck.
I've tried it, but honestly it seems by the time you can lock with necrogen you should already be winning anyways. Unless there is a way to consistently get the combo with academy going pre-lock then I may give up on that idea as well.
I guess I could give it a shot for a few test games, but I don't see it being that much useful. This isn't a turn 3-4 win combo deck, if you don't play your hand efficiently and fast you die, CITPT lands just don't let you play your first turns as efficiently as you should or as fast.
The no 2cc issue was initially to have a slight advantage on game 1 vs decks sporting spells like Spell Snare. It also allowed to set explosives at 2 without any harm. But pyroclasm is a spell so explosives is harmless, I updated my list and have been playing all day with pyroclasm took out spouts just to be able to play a sweeper a turn sooner. Some of us were aslo contemplating playing Chalice of the Void and being able to set it at 2 is bad for most decks in modern. But theres really nothing wrong with 2cc cards.
This is prefect, it has been working all day, fetches combo pieces, it even fetches lands and could find a bridge, needle or explosives in the worst case scenario.
Combined with the natural deck digging of the combo this is too valuable, auto-include. Many thanks.
I haven't noticed corrosions running wild, I cant recall the last time a corrosion was used against me. It just doesn't bother me enough to be on my mind as a threat but I know its a real thing.
Yes. Got 3 on the sb.
Some of the guys were running the bridges, I was never really convinced, but I'm running 2 at the moment to give it a chance. Its good against affinity I can say that much from todays tests. It can also be fetched with reshape in an emergency.
As with CITPT lands, I'm always skeptical of creatures that need to stay on the field to do something, they seem so fragile.
Let us know how it goes, I'll post the list I've been running all day:
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Academy Ruins
2 Marsh Flats
2 Island
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Plains
1 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Codex Shredder
4 Ghoulcaller's Bell
4 Mox Opal
3 Mishra's Bauble
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pithing Needle
4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Intervention Pact
2 Lightning Helix
2 Dispatch
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Reshape
3 Beast Within
3 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Silence
2 Supreme Verdict
Couple notes:
Reshape > Trinket: This is purely a change based on speed, I want to get a Lantern out ASAP. I have artifacts to sac, mox being the perfect target. You can also sac a bauble, or a codex/bell if you got two. Its been giving me better results than trinket just because the fetched piece is automatically put on the battlefield. Post midgame with 5 mana I can fetch a bridge to lock slipped in creatures from graveyards and such.
Upped the moxes to 4 to up the chances of drawing it for the early ramp. It can be sacced to reshape which allows to play extra copies you cant prevent drawing.
No planeswalkers, yes you can finish the game in a few turns with walkers, but for that you most probably need to have the lock set to protect the walkers and honestly I don't mind taking the time to actually mill my opponent with the combo. We should just concentrate on maintaining the lock instead of trying to finish 15 turns earlier, we don't have to be desperate to finish, let the opponent grow desperate trying to break free.
Intervention Pact: Unless I'm playing this wrong, it is the easiest thing to play. The opponent will need three grapeshots to kill you as the first one countered will put you out of range for the second one, so its a good card vs those kind of combos. Burn decks suddenly also lose 2 burn spells as one neutralizes the other. It also neutralizes two attacks from the creature with highest power (or creature with ability if deals damage).
I shifted the build to include a lot of removal mainboard and combo hate sb. I'm running a lot of removal to make sure I can get rid of any creature played as I set the lock or after.
Ancient Stirring is wonderful for finding pieces for the lock, its essentially UB Tezz's +1.
Sideboard:
Leyline of Sanctity, it hoses a lot of combo decks, but it needs to be backed up by something else, a smart combo player knows ways to bounce/remove your hoser. That situation could be remedied by an Intervention Pact to counter their kill spell while gainig you life. Next turn you replay your leyline if it was bounced, if it was destoryed it shouldn't matter since the opponent probably just wasted the removal he was trying to find and the kill spell he was trying to set up. Unless he had a copy of the kill spell and can get out of the lock to draw another removal spell it should be an easy mill. It kills other mill decks as well as RDW & Discard, and about half of red/black aggro/control decks. And some Planeswalker abilities, Lilly being the most annoying that comes to mind.
Beast Within, a card I've been thinking of adding all day, it was made to play with the bridges. It targets everything and we're really low on planeswalker answers. If I could up the bridge count effectively I'd also find a way to include this mainboard.
Nihil Spellbomb, needed as well. I'm going with 3 because in the games I would need it I want to make sure I get it.
Silence, it buys time and with a combo that can dig through decks, buying time is really useful. Its also funny to play it halfway through a storm.
Supreme Verdict, uncounterable sweeper, some decks just try really hard to swarm you.
Anyways, I thought the OP needed an update so I will be doing it during the week, comments on what to add are welcome.
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
I'm running 2 at the moment, dumped the Intervention Pacts.
Beast Within serves as a get rid of anything spell pre-lock and a blow your own artifact and get a 3/3 post-lock.
With Ensnaring Bridge out you blow their permanent and the token can't attack, I'm thinking Firespout would be better than Pyroclasm to be able to control that token but I'll keep the pyros just for speed.
Previous to beast within I was trying Sands of Delirium for a more on-theme wincon with all the untapped lands post-lock. Just 1, you can fetch it or or dump it for later recursion.
EDIT: Pic - What a Beautiful sight! (He wished for a wheel of sun and moon, but it had a beast within it
EDIT2: Pic2 - With 2 codex and academy out on turn 2, I started milling myself to find a lantern, just keep milling the non-lantern cards and if you mill lantern put it back on the upkeep with academy. The deck feels so good versus creature based decks with 10 very good removal/sweeper spells to work with until a bridge drops. I think Sands is my personal pick for a wincon, just for the flavor of it.
EDIT3: Pic3 - I had to go through 3 Ancient Stirrings and 2 Faithless Looting to find my lantern. He spent his first three turns playing lands and BoP to play Gifts for Unburial and Elesh. He played unburial 4th turn and I dispatched his elesh, he attacked on his 5th turn with tarpit, then quit right after I played the lantern and he saw Ensnaring Bridge as my top card. Digging while being able to manage the early creatures until the bridge drops is key, it just shuts down every attacking strategy. It gives the lock an upgrade since you can let them draw beaters. Its too good vs nearly every deck, and it shuts down annoying manlands, I had underrated the bridge by a lot, it is now the fetch to card after the lantern.
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
I had been working on a nice looking update for the primer for a few days, however one of my sisters got into my room and used my computer, obviously she closed the browser containing the page I was editing on. I will not spend various days again trying to recreate it, so here is a 2 hour primer update: First Post
Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions?
EDIT 1: Decklist
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Academy Ruins
2 Marsh Flats
2 Island
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Temple Garden
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Plains
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Codex Shredder
4 Ghoulcaller's Bell
4 Mox Opal
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Pyrite Spellbomb
2 Pithing Needle
4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Dispatch
3 Beast Within
2 Reshape
2 Pyroclasm
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroclasm
1 Dispatch
EDIT 2 (1/12/13): Did some minor editing on the primer, added some sections and added some tags. If anyone sends me their decklist privately I will gladly add it to the primer.
EDIT3 (1/14/13): Expanded on sections of the primer. Also added a "Trolling Wincon" section. If someone would like me to add anything to the primer, just ask.
EDIT 4 (1/16/13): Expanded on the match ups section, edited numbers on the decklist, updated SB.
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
Beast Within seems like a really slow win condition. Not to mention, it's great giving decks Path to Exile, Dismember, etc, as a dead draw. I don't think turning them on helps. (Not to say Beast Within isn't good here. On the contrary. I just think winning needs something else). I like just milling them out in bigger, more liberal chunks towards the end of games.
Against Tron, I like recurring Pyrite Spellbomb with Academy Ruins (since it's harder to profitably mill decks that have Emrakul...)
I'll be trying your newest list card for card tonight. It looks solid, especially Ancient Stirrings.
Which version have you been playing?
There isn't much talk on the topic lately but I do play with the deck 2-5 matches a day to keep refining it.
The last list is the most solid I've been able to make, but I feel there is still space for improvement.
In the end I feel the deck will look something like G/R only for consistency, but for now I'm still testing bit by bit to make sure I try anything I can think off before committing to 1 or 2 colors only.
Suggestions are always welcomed.
The way I described Intervention Pact was that you could respond to the first Grapeshot, putting you at 40 life or more (it prevents damage AND gives you that much life) thus requiring the opponent to play 2 more grapeshots for 20 a piece to get you down from 40. I still didn't like intervention that much, felt like a dead draw most of the time.
Beast Within is not really a wincon, it can be. Its in there because it can target everything, the best next things are Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse, Decay only targets 3cc or less and none target lands. Also it is indeed sweet to let the opponent draw dead removal spells, but turning them on is not that bad, you can recur beast within back and make another token. The thing is, you never really get to do it because the opponent just concedes, which is why I mainly focus on progressively mill them with the lock. The rest are just alternate wincons that are there just in case but you never really use them as wincons.
The tron decks that give me a hard time are the ones running oblivion stone. Vs tron I usually needle karn before it even hits the field if I can, then put up a bridge to neutralize emrakul, but when a stone drops unexpectedly there isn't much you can do unless you got another needle ready to go. Milling emrakul decks is indeed hard, Pyrite Spellbomb is indeed the best way to deal with it. At one time I thought I could just let them draw emarkul and let them play it if they liked so as to prevent it from going to the grave, but then I figured the opponent can just keep it on hand along with all the draws and just discard it from their hand at EOT to get down to 7 cards.
Ancient Stirrings is beast in this deck, worst case scenario you get a land from it.
Let me know how you feel the last decklist after testing, glad to have others interested.
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
No the thing is that each copy of Grapeshot is an individual source. Grapeshot +18 copies are 19 different sources. And Intervention Pact prevents only damage from 1 source. It will only prevent 1 damage and gain you 1 life, and you will probably still die to all the other Grapeshots aimed at you.
Oh... I overlooked that. Oh well, never really liked it that much ; )
EDIT: I'm keeping an eye on Gatecrash, from the spoiled cards I can see there are a lot of cards with abilities to manipulate the top of libraries. Very interesting, although some look as if they could help the opponent break free from the lock.
EDIT 2: From Gatecrash - Dimir Charm - Counter for sorceries, destroy creature with 2 power or less or look at target player's top 3 cards, put one back (a land) and 2 on the graveyard.
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
I haven't looked at the complete gatecrash pool, but I ran a quick search and from the cards that interact with the top of decks Dimir Charm is the only one that seems able to compete for its cost and top manipulation ability. As a bonus it has 2 other very useful abilities, the seond one lets me replace removal spells with this easily, the first one helps against storm (lots of sorceries), scapeshift (sorcery) and some others. I will find a way to main some of these for testing.
Meanwhile, Since the deck really only needs one color producing mana source (Mox or Glimmervoid) I've been designing a version running the urza lands. Why?
- It is an artifact deck.
- You don't need to speed into it but once active, recursion gets insane by having more than enough mana for academy and codexes and to play the recurred pieces.
- We can run a big creature a la emrakul or a mana hungry artifact like sands of delirium to eat huge chunks of their deck.
Its only been tested twice, dropped emrakul once, won by lock-concede the other.
I'm trying to think up ways to abuse the urza lands without deviating from the deck idea (which is why I though of sands of delirium) because it just seems like an overkill idea. Meaning, by the time I assemble tron I should already be winning anyways.
But again I'm just testing this as an experiment, I truly want to test this deck in a lot of ways until I'm comfortable with the build. I will do some more testing on the urza lands and let you guys know if we should shift towards it or not, or if I find some kind of interaction with something else and the lands.
Thats about it, I'll update on a decklist with Dimir Charm after I do some tests.
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
I think with a deck like this is would first start with 4 bridges and leylines then go from there.
In other news:
- storm is no longer as consistent a deck, sweet, much easier to lock now since they take more time to prep. and i get a sorcery counter with the new charm to boot.
- jund lost the one card I hated most, bloodbraid elf. It was the only card from jund that could override the lock with the cascade ability. Confidant can let them draw, but I can take out confidant on the spot while BBE's cascade was unstoppable, potentially playing an abrupt decay or maelstrom pulse to break the lock. In fact, with a bridge down confidant is jund's deathwish, last game vs jund I had bridge out and he had 2 confidants (Which i didn't care to kill since I only needed to make them discard abrupt decay or maelstrom pulse) that took him down to 8 life, last turn took 4 from a bloodbraid with confidant and I reshaped a needle into a second pyrite spellbomb, he conceded before my upkeep.
Yes I looked at your lockdown deck a few times when looking for ideas but I wanted to stay as far away from creatures or planeswalkers as possible. My lock relies more on bridge to nullify attacks and lantern combo to prevent threats from being drawn. Leyline usually comes out of the sideboard when needed because as good as it is, in the games where I don't need it it feels like a really really bad dead draw. I've tried running it main in different numbers, it just doesn't feel like it should be mained.
I do think I should be running 4 bridge because it just kills decks, however, I'm running 3 because I can't cut stuff out easily and since the deck has a really good digging engine I can get to one of the bridges easily (ancient stirrings, faithless looting w/flashback, reshape, combo for digging, pyrite's cycle, recur from grave, etc)
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
Counters work against our tempo sadly, Dimir Charm is the only counter we can run, simply because its a charm and it does other stuff.
My latest list is slightly modified, runs only 2 charms and 2 more on the SB. I currently have one card spot free, so I'm toying around with different wincons lately just for fun. The SB has been revamped, but SBs are meta dependent so I won't post it.
The only thing going on now is that I'm keeping track of matches with a stat table on Excel. I will post win % versus deck types as soon as I have enough matches done, last time I checked it had 12 matches tracked winning 100% of the matches (RDW, Jund, Affinity and Ubr Control being the only tiers, the rest were brews or random decks), sadly I just moved a week ago and am waiting for an internet connection, so the tests have been on hold for a few days.
Deck is still open for ideas, keep them coming cause I feel there is a sleeper in the modern pool that will break this deck open at any time.
Decklists are welcome to be posted on the primer's member decklist section, so if you got a different version just send it to me.
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
I love this combo, well done.
What did you add if you took out a charm?
I've just been using it to test 1-of wincons:
Mostly I've been testing Etherwrought Page and I'm loving it, life gain, deck digging or deal damage each turn.
Also switching between:
Sands of Delirium to dump free mana on the late game
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas cause it's been discussed how much it synergizes with the deck
Thopter Foundry for a bit of lifegain and free tokens post-lock (draw, attack, play drawn card to reactivate bridge)
and some times:
Red Sun's Zenith removal and damage to player that keeps shuffling back into the library.
Throne of Empire One token a turn
Invisible Stalker - hexproof and unblockable
Razortip Whip - Its a very cheap clock, 1 damage a turn.
Its a free slot on a deck that needs no win cons, so you can test anything you feel like, pick a win con of your choice and give it a try, remember you can dump it early game and recur it back late game to finish. Also, pick something well costed, otherwise your opponent will quit from the lock before you play your trump card.
If you want a serious card I'd try +1 Pyrcoclasm.
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
Zerodown, I'm very interested in that list you made using Tron, how did that turn out?