Did you just propose making a functionally worse (and legendary) Ornithopter? And making it (R)?
This is ridiculous. I've stated my case. You've stated yours. Maybe we should hear from someone else.
Remember, printing cards that are (strictly) better or (strictly) worse than old cards isn't actually a bad thing.
Prototype Zero is a top down design and I stand by it. I'm not going to discuss Prototype Zero here further though as it isn't particularly on topic for the thread.
Kayva, Ice Queen could be improved, the design isn't perfect or clean,
Did you see my suggestion of combining the frost touch and lure ability into a single ability? Something like...
Kayva, Ice Queen U
Legendary Creature - Merfolk Siren {R} 1U : Target creature must attack this combat if able and doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.
1/2
...I'm not sure on costs for this. Just kind of guessing at it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
I get the flavor behind it, but I too feel that the whole "tap two untapped forests" thing is just a tad over the top, especially how it interferes with the ever important concept of flexibility.
I think a more interesting solution might be to boomerang an untapped forest as part of the cost. The effect is slightly different since it hits you on mana ramp early on. But it does illustrate the whole, let's take a forest out of commission thing. The advantage is if the meta tries to go after your lands such as through LD or auras, it pulls double duty as a land saver.
I get the feeling that you're pretty steadfast on your card as-is and aren't really looking for dismantling criticism that entombedhydra offers, however... tart it may be. I doubt you would accept mine.
Of course, who am I to offer advice? I work in an industry where there is too much on the line for niceties.
What of it? It is true that "tap a forest : " is equivalent to "tap an untapped forest : " but that isn't relevant. Wizards has been using "tap an untapped {THING} :" as a template for years because it's more clear to players how it works. Or are you trying to point out something else?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
Name an existing 1-drop blue legend with 3 toughness.
Name an existing 1-drop green or white legend with 3 toughness, where these are the best creature colors.
But seriously, Kraken Hatchling is a 0/4 and not only is it not legendary, it's common. A 1/3 for U is not out of the question.
Isamaru, Hound of Konda is a 2/2 for 1 in white, which is generally better than a 1/3. This was before creatures got way better around M11 or so, most notably in regard to being able to have strong abilities and on-curve P/T. See: Duskmantle Seer
But seriously, Kraken Hatchling is a 0/4 and not only is it not legendary, it's common. A 1/3 for U is not out of the question.
Isamaru, Hound of Konda is a 2/2 for 1 in white, which is generally better than a 1/3. This was before creatures got way better around M11 or so, most notably in regard to being able to have strong abilities and on-curve P/T. See: Duskmantle Seer
What is the difference in power level between Savannah Lions and Norwood Ranger? If the answer is "+1/-1", you're ignoring a big thing: The latter saw no play.
Giving +1/-1 DOES change power of a card. Just because Kraken Hatchling is printable, doesn't mean a 1/3 or 2/2 or 3/1 for U is. Obviously so.
In any case, Duskmantle Seer is 2 colors. I can tell you for a fact it's not efficient because of it's blueness but in spite of it.
What is the difference in power level between Savannah Lions and Norwood Ranger? If the answer is "+1/-1", you're ignoring a big thing: The latter saw no play.
Giving +1/-1 DOES change power of a card. Just because Kraken Hatchling is printable, doesn't mean a 1/3 or 2/2 or 3/1 for U is. Obviously so.
In any case, Duskmantle Seer is 2 colors. I can tell you for a fact it's not efficient because of it's blueness but in spite of it.
Permeating Mass then; a rare which, much like Kayva, is focused on blocking and defense.
I'll grant you that Permeating Mass has something of a drawback mechanic for creature-centric Green, but Blue creatures can definitely be among the best and most efficient creatures when it comes to blocking and defense. The only color with comparably efficient blockers to blue is white (and white is slightly better at it, with cards like Lagonna-Band Trailblazer and God-Pharaoh's Faithful). Considering that Kayva is legendary as well, it really isn't too much.
blue gets Vertigo Spawn at uncommon for 2 cmc, and Wall of Frost for 3 cmc at the same rarity. Are you saying that a legendary rare that does the same, with an added ability that itself costs mana, can't conceivably have a cmc one less than an uncommon?
I will also argue that a 1/3 isn't that much different from a 0/4, namely because they're both not very worthwhile to attack with (unless you have Coastal Piracy out or something). A 2/2 or 3/1, on the other hand, would very much be worth attacking with.
What of it? It is true that "tap a forest : " is equivalent to "tap an untapped forest : " but that isn't relevant. Wizards has been using "tap an untapped {THING} :" as a template for years because it's more clear to players how it works. Or are you trying to point out something else?
You really should take what you quoted within the context of my post. Here, I'll help and give you one for free. You have Dune Diviner, then there are the Gates. Then you have a small number that affect permanents. So they affect lands indirectly, so I'll count them anyways even though tapping "permanents" is meant to be as broad as possible, not narrow. What do all the other cards affect and how many of them are there that do "tap an untapped" to non-lands as a cost? Lots. How many affect lands this way? Very few.
So why do I bring that up? Put it in the context of my post.
The OP is so focused on "flavor" that (s)he never takes anyones suggestions seriously unless it's in full agreement. Entombedhydra answers are tart, but he has his points. Someone else offered a perfectly acceptable alternate solution that also has a built in brake and it was ignored and my suggestion, as I expected, was also ignored. If the OP doesn't want any opinions that detract from his "vision" why bother posting? He wants agreeable answers from people that harbor hjs opinion.
The OP is so focused on "flavor" that (s)he never takes anyones suggestions seriously unless it's in full agreement. Entombedhydra answers are tart, but he has his points. Someone else offered a perfectly acceptable alternate solution that also has a built in brake and it was ignored and my suggestion, as I expected, was also ignored. If the OP doesn't want any opinions that detract from his "vision" why bother posting? He wants agreeable answers from people that harbor hjs opinion.
Entombedhydra has offered one point in regards to Poju, "tap two untapped forests" is mechanically more clunky than "GG". It's a good point, but it's not news and their are good flavor reasons to prefer to explicitly state forests. We all recognize that "tap two untapped forests" isn't a typical cost. An atypical cost is being used here intentionally to make the ability draw more attention and get people to consider the flavor of the card. You could do it either way of course and using GG as a cost isn't unreasonable. But to say that the OP is just ignoring this point is entirely wrong. The OP is very aware of what you are pointing out and has intentionally chose to do it another way.
Your design suggestion is interesting, but seems a lot less flavorful to me. Why should talking to a tree bounce that tree? Bounce (when it's flavored) is typically flavored as an abrupt vanishing of the permanent from existence. How does that relate to the intended flavor? Tapping is the typical mechanism of signifying use and makes more sense in this case.
I'm not sure what other design you were referring to exactly, Maybe Ujop? Ujop after some fixes is a reasonable design in my opinion, but it fills an entirely different mechanical niche.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
This is going to be my last post. If you're still hung up, then I'm sorry.
This isn't one of them or rather, not in this way. Dune Diviner works because of the sets Deserts actually appear in. In the greater scheme of things, the card has loads of flavor but is narrowly constrained to very specific decks. Yay for Vorthos but I feel bad for this card, it'll unlikely ever be played outside of Amonkhet. I have never seen anyone play the Gate matters cards myself but the same applies for them.
The OPs card swings the other way to the point where people might look at the card and just go, " why not tap for instead?" I can't honestly think of a reasonable situation where a player might look at and not understand this has to do with Forest. A new player? Doubtful, my 9 year old takes one look at and knows right away it's a Forest. Even recognizes it on my duals even if trees aren't explicitly shown in the art. This doesn't hold true for Deserts because of the inherent ambiguity with .
So back to the flavor, I was referring to Anachronity. I honestly think Anachonity's suggestion made the most sense. It has a built in brake. It taps forests as part of the ability and included Treefolk to boot. I don't feel like reading through the posts again but I don't think you or the OP even mentioned it.
That whole trope about talking to the trees or whatever? Yeah, I get it. It's interesting. It might find a home in a small Legends-Like set.
I'm just not a big fan of how WotC handles typical tropes but that's a discussion for another time.
I happen to like Boomerang effects because I play in a meta with lots of LD. And this is one way to preserve good lands or entice Counterspells to come out. To me this makes sense because Tree Huggers are out to save the forests. And a thing that talks to trees is likely to care for them and prevent their destruction.
The OPs card swings the other way to the point where people might look at the card and just go, " why not tap for instead?"
We want people asking that question. If people are asking that question then they will be actively thinking about the ability and trying to understand why it is the way it is. And when they do, they will look over the card, see the name, the art, and the flavor text, and come to the conclusion that the card isn't just a flavorless piece of cardboard but is instead a design that is playing with and representing druidic lore and tropes.
So back to the flavor, I was referring to Anachronity. I honestly think Anachonity's suggestion made the most sense. It has a built in brake. It taps forests as part of the ability and included Treefolk to boot. I don't feel like reading through the posts again but I don't think you or the OP even mentioned it.
I'm the person who offered the suggestion relating to treefolk actually. I recommended simplifying the ability and/or extending it to treefolk. I explicitly gave two possible versions that I think would be improvements. Anachronity then came along and offered another iteration in a similar space. I think any of the three options would be fine. Relevant quotes below.
I happen to like Boomerang effects because I play in a meta with lots of LD. And this is one way to preserve good lands or entice Counterspells to come out. To me this makes sense because Tree Huggers are out to save the forests. And a thing that talks to trees is likely to care for them and prevent their destruction.
Tree huggers wouldn't typically save forests by making them disappear from reality though, right? (or as an incidental cost to something they were actually trying to do) They would protect the forest by sacrificing themselves to defend the forest, or otherwise using 'magic' to make the forest impervious to destruction, or rebuff intruders that would destroy the forest. IDK. Just my 2cents
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Remember, printing cards that are (strictly) better or (strictly) worse than old cards isn't actually a bad thing.
Prototype Zero is a top down design and I stand by it. I'm not going to discuss Prototype Zero here further though as it isn't particularly on topic for the thread.
Did you see my suggestion of combining the frost touch and lure ability into a single ability? Something like...
Kayva, Ice Queen U
Legendary Creature - Merfolk Siren {R}
1U : Target creature must attack this combat if able and doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.
1/2
...I'm not sure on costs for this. Just kind of guessing at it.
- Manite
I get the flavor behind it, but I too feel that the whole "tap two untapped forests" thing is just a tad over the top, especially how it interferes with the ever important concept of flexibility.
I think a more interesting solution might be to boomerang an untapped forest as part of the cost. The effect is slightly different since it hits you on mana ramp early on. But it does illustrate the whole, let's take a forest out of commission thing. The advantage is if the meta tries to go after your lands such as through LD or auras, it pulls double duty as a land saver.
I get the feeling that you're pretty steadfast on your card as-is and aren't really looking for dismantling criticism that entombedhydra offers, however... tart it may be. I doubt you would accept mine.
Of course, who am I to offer advice? I work in an industry where there is too much on the line for niceties.
What of it? It is true that "tap a forest : " is equivalent to "tap an untapped forest : " but that isn't relevant. Wizards has been using "tap an untapped {THING} :" as a template for years because it's more clear to players how it works. Or are you trying to point out something else?
- Manite
I'll do 1 better and name Ulrich, Uncontested Alpha; he doesn't even have a mana cost!
But seriously, Kraken Hatchling is a 0/4 and not only is it not legendary, it's common. A 1/3 for U is not out of the question.
Isamaru, Hound of Konda is a 2/2 for 1 in white, which is generally better than a 1/3. This was before creatures got way better around M11 or so, most notably in regard to being able to have strong abilities and on-curve P/T. See: Duskmantle Seer
- Rabid Wombat
What is the difference in power level between Savannah Lions and Norwood Ranger? If the answer is "+1/-1", you're ignoring a big thing: The latter saw no play.
Giving +1/-1 DOES change power of a card. Just because Kraken Hatchling is printable, doesn't mean a 1/3 or 2/2 or 3/1 for U is. Obviously so.
In any case, Duskmantle Seer is 2 colors. I can tell you for a fact it's not efficient because of it's blueness but in spite of it.
Permeating Mass then; a rare which, much like Kayva, is focused on blocking and defense.
I'll grant you that Permeating Mass has something of a drawback mechanic for creature-centric Green, but Blue creatures can definitely be among the best and most efficient creatures when it comes to blocking and defense. The only color with comparably efficient blockers to blue is white (and white is slightly better at it, with cards like Lagonna-Band Trailblazer and God-Pharaoh's Faithful). Considering that Kayva is legendary as well, it really isn't too much.
blue gets Vertigo Spawn at uncommon for 2 cmc, and Wall of Frost for 3 cmc at the same rarity. Are you saying that a legendary rare that does the same, with an added ability that itself costs mana, can't conceivably have a cmc one less than an uncommon?
I will also argue that a 1/3 isn't that much different from a 0/4, namely because they're both not very worthwhile to attack with (unless you have Coastal Piracy out or something). A 2/2 or 3/1, on the other hand, would very much be worth attacking with.
- Rabid Wombat
You really should take what you quoted within the context of my post. Here, I'll help and give you one for free. You have Dune Diviner, then there are the Gates. Then you have a small number that affect permanents. So they affect lands indirectly, so I'll count them anyways even though tapping "permanents" is meant to be as broad as possible, not narrow. What do all the other cards affect and how many of them are there that do "tap an untapped" to non-lands as a cost? Lots. How many affect lands this way? Very few.
So why do I bring that up? Put it in the context of my post.
The OP is so focused on "flavor" that (s)he never takes anyones suggestions seriously unless it's in full agreement. Entombedhydra answers are tart, but he has his points. Someone else offered a perfectly acceptable alternate solution that also has a built in brake and it was ignored and my suggestion, as I expected, was also ignored. If the OP doesn't want any opinions that detract from his "vision" why bother posting? He wants agreeable answers from people that harbor hjs opinion.
So... sorry.... what more does the OP want?
And yet a converted mana cost of 5... DFCs got kind of weird.
Entombedhydra has offered one point in regards to Poju, "tap two untapped forests" is mechanically more clunky than "GG". It's a good point, but it's not news and their are good flavor reasons to prefer to explicitly state forests. We all recognize that "tap two untapped forests" isn't a typical cost. An atypical cost is being used here intentionally to make the ability draw more attention and get people to consider the flavor of the card. You could do it either way of course and using GG as a cost isn't unreasonable. But to say that the OP is just ignoring this point is entirely wrong. The OP is very aware of what you are pointing out and has intentionally chose to do it another way.
Your design suggestion is interesting, but seems a lot less flavorful to me. Why should talking to a tree bounce that tree? Bounce (when it's flavored) is typically flavored as an abrupt vanishing of the permanent from existence. How does that relate to the intended flavor? Tapping is the typical mechanism of signifying use and makes more sense in this case.
I'm not sure what other design you were referring to exactly, Maybe Ujop? Ujop after some fixes is a reasonable design in my opinion, but it fills an entirely different mechanical niche.
- Manite
This isn't one of them or rather, not in this way. Dune Diviner works because of the sets Deserts actually appear in. In the greater scheme of things, the card has loads of flavor but is narrowly constrained to very specific decks. Yay for Vorthos but I feel bad for this card, it'll unlikely ever be played outside of Amonkhet. I have never seen anyone play the Gate matters cards myself but the same applies for them.
The OPs card swings the other way to the point where people might look at the card and just go, " why not tap for instead?" I can't honestly think of a reasonable situation where a player might look at and not understand this has to do with Forest. A new player? Doubtful, my 9 year old takes one look at and knows right away it's a Forest. Even recognizes it on my duals even if trees aren't explicitly shown in the art. This doesn't hold true for Deserts because of the inherent ambiguity with .
So back to the flavor, I was referring to Anachronity. I honestly think Anachonity's suggestion made the most sense. It has a built in brake. It taps forests as part of the ability and included Treefolk to boot. I don't feel like reading through the posts again but I don't think you or the OP even mentioned it.
That whole trope about talking to the trees or whatever? Yeah, I get it. It's interesting. It might find a home in a small Legends-Like set.
I'm just not a big fan of how WotC handles typical tropes but that's a discussion for another time.
I happen to like Boomerang effects because I play in a meta with lots of LD. And this is one way to preserve good lands or entice Counterspells to come out. To me this makes sense because Tree Huggers are out to save the forests. And a thing that talks to trees is likely to care for them and prevent their destruction.
I'm the person who offered the suggestion relating to treefolk actually. I recommended simplifying the ability and/or extending it to treefolk. I explicitly gave two possible versions that I think would be improvements. Anachronity then came along and offered another iteration in a similar space. I think any of the three options would be fine. Relevant quotes below.
Tree huggers wouldn't typically save forests by making them disappear from reality though, right? (or as an incidental cost to something they were actually trying to do) They would protect the forest by sacrificing themselves to defend the forest, or otherwise using 'magic' to make the forest impervious to destruction, or rebuff intruders that would destroy the forest. IDK. Just my 2cents
- Manite