Veko, Haunted WretchB
Legendary Creature - Spirit Horror [R]
Menace
Whenever an opponent casts a spell, that player loses 1 life.
1/1
Odeena, Covert SpyU
Legendary Creature - Bird Rouge [R]
Flying
Your opponents play with the top card of their library and their hands revealed.
1/1
Rok the SpunkyR
Legendary Creature - Goblin Warrior [R]
First Strike
If another goblin creature you control with power two or less would deal combat damage, it deals that much damage plus one instead.
1/1
Since it's specifically goblin creatures and specifically Power < 2 (and also its a replacement effect so you can't pump them in-between like how Goblin Tunneler works), I think Rok could just double the damage.
Alternatively you could go with the Kessig Forgemaster ability and deal damage to creatures blocking or blocked by those goblins. Then you could probably include Rok himself in the ability (i.e "whenever a goblin [...]").
Veko - How much damage do you think this will do to a single opponent in a 1v1 match? If the answer is "about 10", which against a green or blue deck sounds about right, then I'd hate to see how much damage your 1 drop red sorcery direct damage spell would do.
Odeena - Two things: (1) Maybe try symmetrical effects. (2) Pick one - reveal top card of the library, or reveal hands. (3) It's clearly a fairy.
Rok - I'm not sure what's going on here. Why is this guy boosting all of your other goblins? This is the closest to being interesting and fair, how about something like this:
Rok, Cool SidekickR
Creature - Goblin Warrior
Haste
Partner
Your other partner legend has double strike.
1/1
Veko - How much damage do you think this will do to a single opponent in a 1v1 match? If the answer is "about 10", which against a green or blue deck sounds about right, then I'd hate to see how much damage your 1 drop red sorcery direct damage spell would do.
Actually, that's a fair point. I was thinking of Veko in the context of commander where gradual life loss like that isn't a huge deal. Veko might be a bit strong in modern or legacy where the spells fall fast and starting life totals are still 20.
Veko - This doesn't seem like a fun design. It's a really powerful burn spell, and I'm just not sure it produces much fun gameplay.
Odeena - Once again, this effect seems clunky and not very fun. Hidden information is really important to the game in my opinion. I wouldn't want to play with or against this commander, and there are better ways to get information about opponents hands in eternal formats.
Rok - Definitely the best design here. I think I'd prefer for the card to just use a triggered ability. The followign ability just seems cleaner and simpler, "Whenever a goblin creature you control with power two or less attacks or blocks, it gets +1/+0 until end of turn." I just don't see why we are using a replacement effect here when we don't really need to.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
I don't understand why Veko, Haunted Wretch is unfun to play against or really powerful. It is essentially a pushed version of Blood Seeker/Suture Priest (both of which are common), but because it is legendary it can't stack. In EDH, the life total is 40 life, so it is a modest effect. In Legacy and other eternal formats it shuts down storm based decks, but it can be removed by literally any removal spell (Dismember, Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, Fatal Push, Abrupt Decay, etc). Seems like a decent but not particularly strong burn spell. Your opponent would have to cast three spells before it would do what Lightning Bolt would have done.
If Odeena, Covert Spy was a symmetrical effect, it wouldn't be good. Telepathy sees no play in eternal formats and it sees incredibly limited play in EDH. Hidden information is important and valuable. This card provides hidden information but doesn't do anything else and is very susceptible to removal.
I agree with harlannowick's proposed version of Rok the Spunky. Using a trigger ability instead of a replacement effect is cleaner and has the same result. In response to entombedhydra asking why does this guy boost other goblins, Rok is a courageous spunky little goblin that inspires other little goblins to continue to fight.
Veko UnboundB
Legendary Creature - Avatar of Good Times (M)
Trample, Menace
19/3
Completely fair, right?
Also, the idea that you can print something in a commander deck that wouldn't be fair in standard... is quite scary.
Telepathy on a 1/1 flyer (perhaps with partner, hint hint) would be pretty good actually. Infact, insofar as it's symmetrical, you could count it as a drawback and make it a 1/2 flying flash creature (letting you "turn it on" when you want.)
Also, the idea that you can print something in a commander deck that wouldn't be fair in standard... is quite scary.
This point begs the question of whether you've actually seen the kinds of things that have been printed in commander releases that become Eternal viable inclusions, not to mention the card pool commander uses in general. Trying to balance EDH to the Standard format's power level is almost comically futile, the format is in its most rudimentary and casual form still ALREADY a higher power format by at least a full order of magnitude.
Veko - This could be extremely interesting as a meta-counter in certain EDH pods. Keeping in mind Eternal format access to commander releases, you might consider making this symmetrical to require more thought and planning from its player.
Odeena - If you don't want to go symmetrical, maybe go with just the topdeck reveal effect (it's often going to be the more powerful effect, as long as you have a good memory). Otherwise, you're ending up with a card that is technically less powerful than people will treat it but still almost universally hated and ganged. Also, +1 to This Is Clearly A Fairy.
Rok - Agree with harlannowick's suggestion, which is cleaner and less vulnerable to bizarre replacement stacking abuse. That version of the card also puts a ceiling on how much the trigger can be milked by multiple attack phases.
Veko UnboundB
Legendary Creature - Avatar of Good Times (M)
Trample, Menace
19/3
Completely fair, right?
Also, the idea that you can print something in a commander deck that wouldn't be fair in standard... is quite scary.
Telepathy on a 1/1 flyer (perhaps with partner, hint hint) would be pretty good actually. Infact, insofar as it's symmetrical, you could count it as a drawback and make it a 1/2 flying flash creature (letting you "turn it on" when you want.)
Don't be ridiculous.
You haven't explained why my card (Veko, Haunted Wretch) is too strong. If it goes unchecked for multiple turns, it doesn't win the game. It is a 1/1 so it has no major impact in combat. What Legacy deck wants to play this card?
Why do you think Telepathy sees practically zero play in commander even though the format has access to dozens of tutors? I will say I agree with Ebline, that the card if anything is overrated. Also, I must say Telepathy with Partner would be much more powerful than as a single commander with a color identity of U for reasons that I assume are obvious.
Not a big deal, but there's no reason Odeena, Covert Spy has to be a faerie or can't be a bird. If anything, it is obviously a rouge. Balustrade Spy, Shadowmage Infiltrator, and Dimensional Infiltrator don't need to be fairies (but they should be rouges).
The flavor signals of a tiny (1/1) blue flier with a topdeck/hand viewing effect and a name like "Odeena" just scream Fairy, is all. It doesn't NEED to be one, it just reads and feels so much like one that it's actually slightly jarring when it isn't.
And that's what I'm getting at. The black one can be expected to do about 10 damage in many decks depending on how much removal your opponent drafted. And in constructed, it might be worse! Dealing 10 damage for 1 mana is ridiculous.
And that's what I'm getting at. The black one can be expected to do about 10 damage in many decks depending on how much removal your opponent drafted. And in constructed, it might be worse! Dealing 10 damage for 1 mana is ridiculous.
The card isn't designed to be drafted. In constructed, do you really think an opponent would cast 10 spells without being able to remove a 1/1 or win the game? That's incredibly unlikely.
The card isn't designed to be drafted. In constructed, do you really think an opponent would cast 10 spells without being able to remove a 1/1 or win the game? That's incredibly unlikely.
Step 1: Grab a deck. For the sake of argument, let's say it's a U or G deck.
Step 2: Play a game of magic. Keep track of the number of cards you played that game.
So you have a 1/1 that burns for that many spells. Given magic is a game of playing spells, I think this is clearly overpowered.
Look at Zo-Zu the Punisher. Even if this was half of zo-zu, a 1/1 for say 1 that dealt 1 damage whenever a player played a land, it'd still be symmetrical and probably overpowered. There's a reason it's a 2/2 for 3. But this? This doesn't hurt you (even if it did, it's probably too good), AND it doesn't limit itself to one damage per turn. If your opponent PLAYS THE GAME, it hurts them.
Let's do the psychatog test. What would the power and toughness of a vanilla creature have to be to make it a better card than psychatog in the psychatog deck? 6/6 for 3? 7/7?
What would the power and toughness of a vanilla 1 drop have to be to be a better play than this? A 3/1 for B? No, because this thing doesn't need to attack to get in. A 5/1 for B No... it'd still be hard to push through the same damage with that.
This card is insane. The design is simple enough, "bad thing + only to your opponents + on a 1/1 for 1", but it's not even close to being balanced for any format.
The card isn't designed to be drafted. In constructed, do you really think an opponent would cast 10 spells without being able to remove a 1/1 or win the game? That's incredibly unlikely.
Step 1: Grab a deck. For the sake of argument, let's say it's a U or G deck.
Step 2: Play a game of magic. Keep track of the number of cards you played that game.
So you have a 1/1 that burns for that many spells. Given magic is a game of playing spells, I think this is clearly overpowered.
Even if you didn't remove it, a green stompy deck could easily race it. Not saying the spell isn't good. It's okay in EDH, it's pretty good in eternal formats, but if a blue deck is so afraid of it, they could use Force of Will. I mean, perhaps I'm missing something and I don't mean this in a rhetorical sense when I ask because I am genuinely curious... What competitive eternal deck would play this card in the main deck?
You are correct, Veko, Haunted Wretch punishes the opponent for casting spells. It is a punishment of 1 life in formats where the life total is 20 life or 40 life.
Do you think the spell is overpowered for the commander format?
What would the power and toughness of a vanilla 1 drop have to be to be a better play than this? A 3/1 for B? No, because this thing doesn't need to attack to get in.
I'm fairly confidant that a 3/1 for B is a more powerful card. It would be a much better top deck and deals damage much faster. Its easier to interact with of course, but either card is really easy to interact with in constructed.
That said, this legend is still just slightly more interactive burn at a (perhaps too) competitive cost. Maybe that excites some players, but it doesn't do anything for me.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
What would the power and toughness of a vanilla 1 drop have to be to be a better play than this? A 3/1 for B? No, because this thing doesn't need to attack to get in.
I'm fairly confidant that a 3/1 for B is a more powerful card.
I can block a 3/1 with anything in my green deck and get rid of it.
A 3/1 for B is too powerful. This is worse than that.
I'll ask again. What competitive eternal deck would play this card in the main deck?
It's a mediocre top deck. It's a legendary, so you probably wouldn't want to run 4 of them. It dies to anything that blocks it in combat. It deals damage at a very slow rate and it is easy to interact with (any removal spell answers it).
Perhaps you initially overreacted to the power level of the card?
I'll ask again. What competitive eternal deck would play this card in the main deck?
All of them? Any of them? It doesn't matter?
What competitive eternal deck would play a 2/2 octopus for U? What competitive eternal deck would play a 10/10 for 4UU? What competitive eternal deck would run a 22/22 for 10G?
Your question is leading and irrelevant. I genuinely do not understand how you see the game; if it's not legacy tier playable it's not too powerful? WHAT?
I'll ask again. What competitive eternal deck would play this card in the main deck?
All of them? Any of them? It doesn't matter?
What competitive eternal deck would play a 2/2 octopus for U? What competitive eternal deck would play a 10/10 for 4UU? What competitive eternal deck would run a 22/22 for 10G?
Your question is leading and irrelevant. I genuinely do not understand how you see the game; if it's not legacy tier playable it's not too powerful? WHAT?
It's not a leading question and it does matter. I said I designed the card with EDH and eternal formats in mind. You said it is "clearly overpowered" and "it's not even close to being balanced for any format"
You either initially overreacted to the power level of the card, or you believe the card would break formats and have yet to explain why. The card certainly wouldn't break EDH and I couldn't even see it being a top 10 general power level wise. I can't even imagine an eternal constructed deck that would want to play this, so how could it be broken for the format?
Veko is definitely not overpowered for commander. He's essentially a burn spell in a 40-life format, and anyone who actually cares about that life loss *and* isn't packing removal for a 1/1 1-drop is asking for trouble. The fact that he/she/it stops certain combos is a pretty big plus.
Your question is leading and irrelevant. I genuinely do not understand how you see the game; if it's not legacy tier playable it's not too powerful? WHAT?
The card is designed for commander, where both it and a 3/1 for B would not be overpowered due to the 40-life starting total.
Considering the poster originally specified that the card is designed with respect to EDH and eternal, it's pretty explicitly irrelevant how strong it would be in standard. The interest in legacy, I assume, is primarily due to the fact that any card printed in a commander product is legal for eternal play.
So...
For legacy, burn would probably like to play him off the top of my head, but burn isn't exactly dominant right now. It would be less powerful than Eidolon of the Great Revel (it's half the mana cost, half the damage, but still 1 card in a deck that lacks card advantage; the vast majority of important spells in legacy are CMC <= 3 so that's not especially relevant). What's more, it would act as a counter to storm and Grixis Delver, two of the top decks in the format which just so happen to like playing a lot of 1-mana blue cantrips. So it would actually stabilize the format.
For vintage, the mana cost of a card is drastically less expensive than the fact that it is one less card in your hand. Veko isn't going to help you combo off, and isn't going to stop your opponent from combo'ing. So, no, not overpowered by a long shot.
The card is designed for commander, where both it and a 3/1 for B would not be overpowered due to the 40-life starting total.
This is not how to design magic cards. Magic cards must be designed not to warp any format they are a member of. If your position is that these are "designed to be printed in legacy-only sets," you're missing the point of the legacy-only category here.
Wizards makes Commander decks not standard legal because they don't want Standard players to have to buy 4x copies of a Commander deck - a limited product.
The idea that wizards would design ANY product explicitly for "legacy" (IE, including overpowered cards that cannot be printed for standard or modern) is absurd. The idea that Wizards would print a 3/1 for B in a commander set is absurd.
There are some cards that are good in modern, but not in standard. And some good in standard, but not modern. And some good in limited, but not (normal) constructed. This is how metagames work. If your contention is that Savannah Lions isn't commander playable... who cares!Extirpate is not limited playable. You don't "power up" a extirpate effect to make it limited playable (Let's have it extirpate all the cards from the graveyard... but this isn't a graveyard heavy set... so let's also make it cantrip!).
If you're asking for a balanced burn spell in commander... I'm not sure you understand that burn spells USUALLY aren't good in commander because it's a multiplayer format, and targeted burn usually hits 1 thing, and people's life totals start higher, etc., etc.,etc.
And let's be clear here - It's quite easy to design actual burn spells that are relevant in commander. Zo-Zu the Punisher, for example, is actually quite interesting. This card in question is obscene compared to Zo-Zu, as is discussed. It's obscene compared to any existing cards. Your "excuse" is that it's designed for a different format. But Commander is full of good cards that DO NOT warp ever other constructed format they're in.
Magic cards must be designed not to warp any format they are a member of. If your position is that these are "designed to be printed in legacy-only sets," you're missing the point of the legacy-only category here.
No one else seems to think the card will warp legacy. We could all be wrong though. I don't expect the card to see much of any play. Maybe sideboard, but probably not. Frankly I think you are dramatically overestimating the impact of the card. It's not "B:Deal 10 damage to each opponent" any more than managorger hydra is a 3 cost 10/10 trampler.
If you're asking for a balanced burn spell in commander... I'm not sure you understand that burn spells USUALLY aren't good in commander because it's a multiplayer format, and targeted burn usually hits 1 thing, and people's life totals start higher, etc., etc.,etc.
We all understand that burn isn't good in commander. This is a large part of the reason why we don't think the card is OP, as it's ultimately just a slow clunky burn spell in a format where burn is bad.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
Managorger hydra is a good example. How much mana does that cost again? Is your creature a 1/1 for 2B? No? Okay then.
Let's not pretend that there aren't existing cards to compare this to. So do that.
Question: Would managorger hydra be printable at the cost of G if it was legendary? I think not. That said, I shouldn't have to remind you that for managorger hydra to deal any damage to my opponent at all, he has to attack and get through blockers. Yours? Direct damage. Wait - I mean life loss, which costs more mechanically!
The sad thing is that "1 damage" isn't even substantial in commander. So all we're really talking about here is a card too strong for standard and modern, above the curve for legacy (I don't think you can say ANYTHING is too strong for legacy, given existing legacy cards, but let's be clear that this is above the curve), and a terrible commander for commander. In terms of design, this is like robbing the wrong bank where had you robbed the right bank, you still wouldn't have enough money.
Veko, Haunted Wretch B
Legendary Creature - Spirit Horror [R]
Menace
Whenever an opponent casts a spell, that player loses 1 life.
1/1
Odeena, Covert Spy U
Legendary Creature - Bird Rouge [R]
Flying
Your opponents play with the top card of their library and their hands revealed.
1/1
Rok the Spunky R
Legendary Creature - Goblin Warrior [R]
First Strike
If another goblin creature you control with power two or less would deal combat damage, it deals that much damage plus one instead.
1/1
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Alternatively you could go with the Kessig Forgemaster ability and deal damage to creatures blocking or blocked by those goblins. Then you could probably include Rok himself in the ability (i.e "whenever a goblin [...]").
The other two look fine.
- Rabid Wombat
Odeena - Two things: (1) Maybe try symmetrical effects. (2) Pick one - reveal top card of the library, or reveal hands. (3) It's clearly a fairy.
Rok - I'm not sure what's going on here. Why is this guy boosting all of your other goblins? This is the closest to being interesting and fair, how about something like this:
Rok, Cool Sidekick R
Creature - Goblin Warrior
Haste
Partner
Your other partner legend has double strike.
1/1
Actually, that's a fair point. I was thinking of Veko in the context of commander where gradual life loss like that isn't a huge deal. Veko might be a bit strong in modern or legacy where the spells fall fast and starting life totals are still 20.
- Rabid Wombat
Odeena - Once again, this effect seems clunky and not very fun. Hidden information is really important to the game in my opinion. I wouldn't want to play with or against this commander, and there are better ways to get information about opponents hands in eternal formats.
Rok - Definitely the best design here. I think I'd prefer for the card to just use a triggered ability. The followign ability just seems cleaner and simpler, "Whenever a goblin creature you control with power two or less attacks or blocks, it gets +1/+0 until end of turn." I just don't see why we are using a replacement effect here when we don't really need to.
- Manite
If Odeena, Covert Spy was a symmetrical effect, it wouldn't be good. Telepathy sees no play in eternal formats and it sees incredibly limited play in EDH. Hidden information is important and valuable. This card provides hidden information but doesn't do anything else and is very susceptible to removal.
I agree with harlannowick's proposed version of Rok the Spunky. Using a trigger ability instead of a replacement effect is cleaner and has the same result. In response to entombedhydra asking why does this guy boost other goblins, Rok is a courageous spunky little goblin that inspires other little goblins to continue to fight.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Veko UnboundB
Legendary Creature - Avatar of Good Times (M)
Trample, Menace
19/3
Completely fair, right?
Also, the idea that you can print something in a commander deck that wouldn't be fair in standard... is quite scary.
Telepathy on a 1/1 flyer (perhaps with partner, hint hint) would be pretty good actually. Infact, insofar as it's symmetrical, you could count it as a drawback and make it a 1/2 flying flash creature (letting you "turn it on" when you want.)
This point begs the question of whether you've actually seen the kinds of things that have been printed in commander releases that become Eternal viable inclusions, not to mention the card pool commander uses in general. Trying to balance EDH to the Standard format's power level is almost comically futile, the format is in its most rudimentary and casual form still ALREADY a higher power format by at least a full order of magnitude.
Veko - This could be extremely interesting as a meta-counter in certain EDH pods. Keeping in mind Eternal format access to commander releases, you might consider making this symmetrical to require more thought and planning from its player.
Odeena - If you don't want to go symmetrical, maybe go with just the topdeck reveal effect (it's often going to be the more powerful effect, as long as you have a good memory). Otherwise, you're ending up with a card that is technically less powerful than people will treat it but still almost universally hated and ganged. Also, +1 to This Is Clearly A Fairy.
Rok - Agree with harlannowick's suggestion, which is cleaner and less vulnerable to bizarre replacement stacking abuse. That version of the card also puts a ceiling on how much the trigger can be milked by multiple attack phases.
Most Used (of many dozens) EDH Decks:
Brago, King Eternal - Stax
Grenzo, Dungeon Warden - Aggro Combo
Wort, the Raidmother - Spellslinger Swarm Control
Animar, Soul of Elements - Tempo Combo
Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder - Spellslinger
Exodia the Forbidden One:
Oona, Queen of the Fae - Combowins.dec
Don't be ridiculous.
You haven't explained why my card (Veko, Haunted Wretch) is too strong. If it goes unchecked for multiple turns, it doesn't win the game. It is a 1/1 so it has no major impact in combat. What Legacy deck wants to play this card?
Why do you think Telepathy sees practically zero play in commander even though the format has access to dozens of tutors? I will say I agree with Ebline, that the card if anything is overrated. Also, I must say Telepathy with Partner would be much more powerful than as a single commander with a color identity of U for reasons that I assume are obvious.
Not a big deal, but there's no reason Odeena, Covert Spy has to be a faerie or can't be a bird. If anything, it is obviously a rouge. Balustrade Spy, Shadowmage Infiltrator, and Dimensional Infiltrator don't need to be fairies (but they should be rouges).
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Most Used (of many dozens) EDH Decks:
Brago, King Eternal - Stax
Grenzo, Dungeon Warden - Aggro Combo
Wort, the Raidmother - Spellslinger Swarm Control
Animar, Soul of Elements - Tempo Combo
Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder - Spellslinger
Exodia the Forbidden One:
Oona, Queen of the Fae - Combowins.dec
And that's what I'm getting at. The black one can be expected to do about 10 damage in many decks depending on how much removal your opponent drafted. And in constructed, it might be worse! Dealing 10 damage for 1 mana is ridiculous.
The card isn't designed to be drafted. In constructed, do you really think an opponent would cast 10 spells without being able to remove a 1/1 or win the game? That's incredibly unlikely.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Step 1: Grab a deck. For the sake of argument, let's say it's a U or G deck.
Step 2: Play a game of magic. Keep track of the number of cards you played that game.
So you have a 1/1 that burns for that many spells. Given magic is a game of playing spells, I think this is clearly overpowered.
Look at Zo-Zu the Punisher. Even if this was half of zo-zu, a 1/1 for say 1 that dealt 1 damage whenever a player played a land, it'd still be symmetrical and probably overpowered. There's a reason it's a 2/2 for 3. But this? This doesn't hurt you (even if it did, it's probably too good), AND it doesn't limit itself to one damage per turn. If your opponent PLAYS THE GAME, it hurts them.
Let's do the psychatog test. What would the power and toughness of a vanilla creature have to be to make it a better card than psychatog in the psychatog deck? 6/6 for 3? 7/7?
What would the power and toughness of a vanilla 1 drop have to be to be a better play than this? A 3/1 for B? No, because this thing doesn't need to attack to get in. A 5/1 for B No... it'd still be hard to push through the same damage with that.
This card is insane. The design is simple enough, "bad thing + only to your opponents + on a 1/1 for 1", but it's not even close to being balanced for any format.
Or you remove Veko, Haunted Wretch...
Turn 1: Forest into Young Wolf.
Turn 1: Swamp into Veko, Haunted Wretch.
Turn 2: Forest into Prey Upon/Hornet Sting and a second Young Wolf. The green player lost 1 life because of Veko, Haunted Wretch.
Even if you didn't remove it, a green stompy deck could easily race it. Not saying the spell isn't good. It's okay in EDH, it's pretty good in eternal formats, but if a blue deck is so afraid of it, they could use Force of Will. I mean, perhaps I'm missing something and I don't mean this in a rhetorical sense when I ask because I am genuinely curious... What competitive eternal deck would play this card in the main deck?
You are correct, Veko, Haunted Wretch punishes the opponent for casting spells. It is a punishment of 1 life in formats where the life total is 20 life or 40 life.
Do you think the spell is overpowered for the commander format?
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
I'm fairly confidant that a 3/1 for B is a more powerful card. It would be a much better top deck and deals damage much faster. Its easier to interact with of course, but either card is really easy to interact with in constructed.
That said, this legend is still just slightly more interactive burn at a (perhaps too) competitive cost. Maybe that excites some players, but it doesn't do anything for me.
- Manite
I can block a 3/1 with anything in my green deck and get rid of it.
A 3/1 for B is too powerful. This is worse than that.
I'll ask again. What competitive eternal deck would play this card in the main deck?
It's a mediocre top deck. It's a legendary, so you probably wouldn't want to run 4 of them. It dies to anything that blocks it in combat. It deals damage at a very slow rate and it is easy to interact with (any removal spell answers it).
Perhaps you initially overreacted to the power level of the card?
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
All of them? Any of them? It doesn't matter?
What competitive eternal deck would play a 2/2 octopus for U? What competitive eternal deck would play a 10/10 for 4UU? What competitive eternal deck would run a 22/22 for 10G?
Your question is leading and irrelevant. I genuinely do not understand how you see the game; if it's not legacy tier playable it's not too powerful? WHAT?
It's not a leading question and it does matter. I said I designed the card with EDH and eternal formats in mind. You said it is "clearly overpowered" and "it's not even close to being balanced for any format"
You either initially overreacted to the power level of the card, or you believe the card would break formats and have yet to explain why. The card certainly wouldn't break EDH and I couldn't even see it being a top 10 general power level wise. I can't even imagine an eternal constructed deck that would want to play this, so how could it be broken for the format?
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
The card is designed for commander, where both it and a 3/1 for B would not be overpowered due to the 40-life starting total.
Considering the poster originally specified that the card is designed with respect to EDH and eternal, it's pretty explicitly irrelevant how strong it would be in standard. The interest in legacy, I assume, is primarily due to the fact that any card printed in a commander product is legal for eternal play.
So...
For legacy, burn would probably like to play him off the top of my head, but burn isn't exactly dominant right now. It would be less powerful than Eidolon of the Great Revel (it's half the mana cost, half the damage, but still 1 card in a deck that lacks card advantage; the vast majority of important spells in legacy are CMC <= 3 so that's not especially relevant). What's more, it would act as a counter to storm and Grixis Delver, two of the top decks in the format which just so happen to like playing a lot of 1-mana blue cantrips. So it would actually stabilize the format.
For vintage, the mana cost of a card is drastically less expensive than the fact that it is one less card in your hand. Veko isn't going to help you combo off, and isn't going to stop your opponent from combo'ing. So, no, not overpowered by a long shot.
- Rabid Wombat
This is not how to design magic cards. Magic cards must be designed not to warp any format they are a member of. If your position is that these are "designed to be printed in legacy-only sets," you're missing the point of the legacy-only category here.
Wizards makes Commander decks not standard legal because they don't want Standard players to have to buy 4x copies of a Commander deck - a limited product.
The idea that wizards would design ANY product explicitly for "legacy" (IE, including overpowered cards that cannot be printed for standard or modern) is absurd. The idea that Wizards would print a 3/1 for B in a commander set is absurd.
There are some cards that are good in modern, but not in standard. And some good in standard, but not modern. And some good in limited, but not (normal) constructed. This is how metagames work. If your contention is that Savannah Lions isn't commander playable... who cares! Extirpate is not limited playable. You don't "power up" a extirpate effect to make it limited playable (Let's have it extirpate all the cards from the graveyard... but this isn't a graveyard heavy set... so let's also make it cantrip!).
If you're asking for a balanced burn spell in commander... I'm not sure you understand that burn spells USUALLY aren't good in commander because it's a multiplayer format, and targeted burn usually hits 1 thing, and people's life totals start higher, etc., etc.,etc.
And let's be clear here - It's quite easy to design actual burn spells that are relevant in commander. Zo-Zu the Punisher, for example, is actually quite interesting. This card in question is obscene compared to Zo-Zu, as is discussed. It's obscene compared to any existing cards. Your "excuse" is that it's designed for a different format. But Commander is full of good cards that DO NOT warp ever other constructed format they're in.
No one else seems to think the card will warp legacy. We could all be wrong though. I don't expect the card to see much of any play. Maybe sideboard, but probably not. Frankly I think you are dramatically overestimating the impact of the card. It's not "B:Deal 10 damage to each opponent" any more than managorger hydra is a 3 cost 10/10 trampler.
We all understand that burn isn't good in commander. This is a large part of the reason why we don't think the card is OP, as it's ultimately just a slow clunky burn spell in a format where burn is bad.
- Manite
Let's not pretend that there aren't existing cards to compare this to. So do that.
Question: Would managorger hydra be printable at the cost of G if it was legendary? I think not. That said, I shouldn't have to remind you that for managorger hydra to deal any damage to my opponent at all, he has to attack and get through blockers. Yours? Direct damage. Wait - I mean life loss, which costs more mechanically!
The sad thing is that "1 damage" isn't even substantial in commander. So all we're really talking about here is a card too strong for standard and modern, above the curve for legacy (I don't think you can say ANYTHING is too strong for legacy, given existing legacy cards, but let's be clear that this is above the curve), and a terrible commander for commander. In terms of design, this is like robbing the wrong bank where had you robbed the right bank, you still wouldn't have enough money.