The card is designed for commander, where both it and a 3/1 for B would not be overpowered due to the 40-life starting total.
This is not how to design magic cards. Magic cards must be designed not to warp any format they are a member of. If your position is that these are "designed to be printed in legacy-only sets," you're missing the point of the legacy-only category here.
First, it is not going to warp any format that it is a member of, because it is a member of only Commander, Legacy, and Vintage. This is a near-certain fact which you don't seem to be acknowledging in any way, shape, or form.
Second, you're going to need to explain the legacy-only category to me if it is not, in fact, a category concerning only all cards legal in legacy (or which would hypothetically be legal in legacy, when it comes to card design).
Wizards makes Commander decks not standard legal because they don't want Standard players to have to buy 4x copies of a Commander deck - a limited product.
I disagree; commander decks aren't standard-legal because any card contained therein must be balanced against cards already available in commander (many of which are not standard legal).
The idea that wizards would design ANY product explicitly for "legacy" (IE, including overpowered cards that cannot be printed for standard or modern) is absurd.
I think we've already clarified that these cards are explicitly for commander, but need to be considered with regard to legacy because commander cards are also legacy-legal. As far as that goes, we've already seen that they'll sneak the occasional new legacy card into an otherwise commander-oriented product since that card would be overpowered in standard. It's called Flusterstorm.
The idea that Wizards would print a 3/1 for B in a commander set is absurd.
Correct, it would be too boring. A legendary 1/1 that pings opponents for casting spells at the same mana cost is a lot more interesting (and still not overpowered in the specific format of commander, by your own admission).
There are some cards that are good in modern, but not in standard. And some good in standard, but not modern. And some good in limited, but not (normal) constructed. This is how metagames work. If your contention is that Savannah Lions isn't commander playable... who cares!Extirpate is not limited playable. You don't "power up" a extirpate effect to make it limited playable (Let's have it extirpate all the cards from the graveyard... but this isn't a graveyard heavy set... so let's also make it cantrip!).
Extirpate was in an actual set, and therefore available at various points in time in limited, standard, modern, legacy, vintage, and commander. It therefore needs to be balanced for all of those. The same is true of Savannah Lions.
Veko, like Flusterstorm, would never be in standard, modern, or limited. Thus, the fact that a strong 1-mana auto-pinger in standard would be broken is as irrelevant as the fact that a 1-mana super-powered Force Spike would have been broken in standard; they'll never be in standard.
If you're asking for a balanced burn spell in commander... I'm not sure you understand that burn spells USUALLY aren't good in commander because it's a multiplayer format, and targeted burn usually hits 1 thing, and people's life totals start higher, etc., etc.,etc.
And let's be clear here - It's quite easy to design actual burn spells that are relevant in commander. Zo-Zu the Punisher, for example, is actually quite interesting.
Gosh, an easy way to design good burn spells in commander is to have them be a permanent that repeatedly burns people over time for more total damage than an equivalently-costed 1-shot instant? Maybe we should turn Veko into that instead, maybe if it, like, pings them for 1 whenever they cast a spell?
This card in question is obscene compared to Zo-Zu, as is discussed. It's obscene compared to any existing cards. Your "excuse" is that it's designed for a different format.
Zo-Zu: 1 card (or the commander slot), 3 mana for a 2/2 that pings for 2 whenever a land ETBs for any player. Deals actual damage, and so can combo with lifelink or infect.
Veko: 1 card (or the commander slot), 1 mana for a 1/1 that pings for 1 whenever a spell is cast by an opponent. Can't benefit from lifelink, but gets past damage prevention.
They seem pretty similar to me, with tradeoffs naturally expected of any two similar-but-not-identical cards. To call one fair and balanced while the other is "obscene" is flagrant exaggeration.
But Commander is full of good cards that DO NOT warp ever other constructed format they're in.
Veko: good card, would not warp every other constructed format it would be in.
I think we've got a perfect fit here.
The card is designed for commander, where both it and a 3/1 for B would not be overpowered due to the 40-life starting total.
This is not how to design magic cards. Magic cards must be designed not to warp any format they are a member of. If your position is that these are "designed to be printed in legacy-only sets," you're missing the point of the legacy-only category here.
Wizards makes Commander decks not standard legal because they don't want Standard players to have to buy 4x copies of a Commander deck - a limited product.
The idea that wizards would design ANY product explicitly for "legacy" (IE, including overpowered cards that cannot be printed for standard or modern) is absurd. The idea that Wizards would print a 3/1 for B in a commander set is absurd.
The idea that you sincerely don't know that there is ALREADY a massive gulf between these formats and Standard and that Wizards ALREADY prints cards to a very different power level when they aren't going to be available to Standard is absurd. Wizards prints Eternal treats in supplemental products like Commander ON THE REGULAR, and there's a very clear progression of power level available in a product as it sheds availability and design intent to certain formats: products intended for Standard availability with drafting in mind have a low average power level, products where the cards will not be available in Standard but which are still intended to be drafted are more powerful, and products unavailable to Standard and not suitable for drafting tend to have the highest average power level across their designs. The fewer lower-power formats a product's cards are available to, the more powerful the designs in the product tend to be on average. This is a pretty consistent thing that many Eternal players actively count on going into various spoiler seasons.
The assertion that Zo-Zu the Punisher is legitimately relevant in commander is absurd. You have to walk down the casual <-> competitive scale a good deal of the way toward full casual before Zo-Zu becomes relevant in a game-changing way as opposed to blown out of proportion for punishing a resource players hate having interference on.
Veko is definitely an attention-grabber and people will want to blow it out in both EDH and the Eternal formats, but it's not going to warp any of the formats it's available in, and even if it were available to Standard, it wouldn't obliterate the format the way you're Chicken Littleing about. It would be strong there, even oppressive in the wrong design environment (a standard with particularly weak or slow creature removal, say), but not disastrous.
I honestly think that if Veko was legal in Modern (which was not the intended design) it wouldn't break the format. I don't even think Burn would want to play it over Eidolon of the Great Revel. It certainly wouldn't be oppressive in Legacy or EDH.
In Commander, it's interesting because it encourages an aggressive early game plan, but it's a 1/1 that slowly leeches away at opponents in a format with 40 life.
Then there are cards that auto whack the opponent on discard, upkeep, graveyard, whatever. I don't really feel like copying and pasting the relevant handful right now.
Personally, I don't see the negative impact Vekos would have in Vintage/Legacy since I don't see these other cards having any impact, at all. I could be wrong, I won't say I know what's in every deck running around in any format.
I don't like the card because it's a little bit ahead of the curve for 1cmc. And at 1 cmc, it's a card that'll be hard to keep dead (a feature I strongly dislike in Yu-Gi-Oh). However, being mono colored, I'm not entirely sure what impact it will have in said deck against decks equipped with good repeatable answers.
In addition I feel cards that auto whack for damage should be introduced judiciously into the larger card pool.
These intuitive feelings aren't really enough to turn my thumb down without more playtesting though.
EtombedHydra at it again Commander products have 15 new cards per deck designed specifically for Commander. Time to move on.
Cards look good HB
The notion they don't consider other formats when designing the cards is just wrong. Scavenging Ooze, for example.
Still, it seems to be your position that anything is printable if it doesn't unbalance commander. So, with that in mind:
Counterer SpellU
Instant (C) (but really Rare, since this is commander)
Counter target spell you don't control.
Broken in commander? NOPE!
Big Fat 1 DropG
Creature - Elephant (R)
When ~ enters the battlefield, choose an opponent at random. That player has Protection from Big Fat 1 Drop.
6/6
Broken in commander? NOPE!
Wait, Burn Spell?3R
Sorcery (R)
~ deals 10 damage to target player.
Broken in commander? NOPE! Heck, probably not even playable!
When he said he designed cards for commander, he meant he designed cards for commander products - something that could realistically be printed in a 100 card deck. He did NOT mean that he designed something that could ONLY be played in commander format, and was never intended to be played in any format where commander cards are also legal.
We can have a sensible disagreement about this card. But the only cards that people have noted that works ANYTHING CLOSE to this are 3 mana creatures. Hence, precedent.
EtombedHydra at it again Commander products have 15 new cards per deck designed specifically for Commander. Time to move on.
Cards look good HB
The notion they don't consider other formats when designing the cards is just wrong. Scavenging Ooze, for example.
Still, it seems to be your position that anything is printable if it doesn't unbalance commander. So, with that in mind:
Counterer SpellU
Instant (C) (but really Rare, since this is commander)
Counter target spell you don't control.
Broken in commander? NOPE!
Big Fat 1 DropG
Creature - Elephant (R)
When ~ enters the battlefield, choose an opponent at random. That player has Protection from Big Fat 1 Drop.
6/6
Broken in commander? NOPE!
Wait, Burn Spell?3R
Sorcery (R)
~ deals 10 damage to target player.
Broken in commander? NOPE! Heck, probably not even playable!
When he said he designed cards for commander, he meant he designed cards for commander products - something that could realistically be printed in a 100 card deck. He did NOT mean that he designed something that could ONLY be played in commander format, and was never intended to be played in any format where commander cards are also legal.
We can have a sensible disagreement about this card. But the only cards that people have noted that works ANYTHING CLOSE to this are 3 mana creatures. Hence, precedent.
The majority of new cards printed in EDH decks are printed primarily for EDH. Many of the cards specifically refer to multiplayer mechanics or the command zone.
Your counterspell would be played in every blue EDH deck. It would be overpowered for the format in the sense that it would become probably the best counterspell in the entire format in a format where dozens of counterspells are legal. None of the cards I designed, particularly Veko, would do that.
Your green creature spell would be more mana efficient than every other creature in the format with the exception of Serra Ascendant.
These cards would dramatically impact the format. They would both become staples instantly. Veko, Haunted Wretch wouldn't dramatically impact EDH (or eternal formats for that matter). It wouldn't become an instant staple.
You originally said that Veko, Haunted Wretch is "clearly overpowered" and "it's not even close to being balanced for any format". It sounds like you spoke in a hyperbolic manner or didn't realize you were wrong to say that. Neither of those things, particularly the second statement, are true. I have plenty of sensible disagreements with many people on this forum, including yourself. But the notion that this card is just super powerful or broken is pretty silly.
First, it is not going to warp any format that it is a member of, because it is a member of only Commander, Legacy, and Vintage. This is a near-certain fact which you don't seem to be acknowledging in any way, shape, or form.
Second, you're going to need to explain the legacy-only category to me if it is not, in fact, a category concerning only all cards legal in legacy (or which would hypothetically be legal in legacy, when it comes to card design).
I disagree; commander decks aren't standard-legal because any card contained therein must be balanced against cards already available in commander (many of which are not standard legal).
I think we've already clarified that these cards are explicitly for commander, but need to be considered with regard to legacy because commander cards are also legacy-legal. As far as that goes, we've already seen that they'll sneak the occasional new legacy card into an otherwise commander-oriented product since that card would be overpowered in standard. It's called Flusterstorm.
Correct, it would be too boring. A legendary 1/1 that pings opponents for casting spells at the same mana cost is a lot more interesting (and still not overpowered in the specific format of commander, by your own admission).
Extirpate was in an actual set, and therefore available at various points in time in limited, standard, modern, legacy, vintage, and commander. It therefore needs to be balanced for all of those. The same is true of Savannah Lions.
Veko, like Flusterstorm, would never be in standard, modern, or limited. Thus, the fact that a strong 1-mana auto-pinger in standard would be broken is as irrelevant as the fact that a 1-mana super-powered Force Spike would have been broken in standard; they'll never be in standard.
Gosh, an easy way to design good burn spells in commander is to have them be a permanent that repeatedly burns people over time for more total damage than an equivalently-costed 1-shot instant? Maybe we should turn Veko into that instead, maybe if it, like, pings them for 1 whenever they cast a spell?
Zo-Zu: 1 card (or the commander slot), 3 mana for a 2/2 that pings for 2 whenever a land ETBs for any player. Deals actual damage, and so can combo with lifelink or infect.
Veko: 1 card (or the commander slot), 1 mana for a 1/1 that pings for 1 whenever a spell is cast by an opponent. Can't benefit from lifelink, but gets past damage prevention.
They seem pretty similar to me, with tradeoffs naturally expected of any two similar-but-not-identical cards. To call one fair and balanced while the other is "obscene" is flagrant exaggeration.
Veko: good card, would not warp every other constructed format it would be in.
I think we've got a perfect fit here.
- Rabid Wombat
The idea that you sincerely don't know that there is ALREADY a massive gulf between these formats and Standard and that Wizards ALREADY prints cards to a very different power level when they aren't going to be available to Standard is absurd. Wizards prints Eternal treats in supplemental products like Commander ON THE REGULAR, and there's a very clear progression of power level available in a product as it sheds availability and design intent to certain formats: products intended for Standard availability with drafting in mind have a low average power level, products where the cards will not be available in Standard but which are still intended to be drafted are more powerful, and products unavailable to Standard and not suitable for drafting tend to have the highest average power level across their designs. The fewer lower-power formats a product's cards are available to, the more powerful the designs in the product tend to be on average. This is a pretty consistent thing that many Eternal players actively count on going into various spoiler seasons.
The assertion that Zo-Zu the Punisher is legitimately relevant in commander is absurd. You have to walk down the casual <-> competitive scale a good deal of the way toward full casual before Zo-Zu becomes relevant in a game-changing way as opposed to blown out of proportion for punishing a resource players hate having interference on.
Veko is definitely an attention-grabber and people will want to blow it out in both EDH and the Eternal formats, but it's not going to warp any of the formats it's available in, and even if it were available to Standard, it wouldn't obliterate the format the way you're Chicken Littleing about. It would be strong there, even oppressive in the wrong design environment (a standard with particularly weak or slow creature removal, say), but not disastrous.
Most Used (of many dozens) EDH Decks:
Brago, King Eternal - Stax
Grenzo, Dungeon Warden - Aggro Combo
Wort, the Raidmother - Spellslinger Swarm Control
Animar, Soul of Elements - Tempo Combo
Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder - Spellslinger
Exodia the Forbidden One:
Oona, Queen of the Fae - Combowins.dec
Cards look good HB
In Commander, it's interesting because it encourages an aggressive early game plan, but it's a 1/1 that slowly leeches away at opponents in a format with 40 life.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Then there's Kambal, Consul of Allocation.
Then there are cards that auto whack the opponent on discard, upkeep, graveyard, whatever. I don't really feel like copying and pasting the relevant handful right now.
Personally, I don't see the negative impact Vekos would have in Vintage/Legacy since I don't see these other cards having any impact, at all. I could be wrong, I won't say I know what's in every deck running around in any format.
I don't like the card because it's a little bit ahead of the curve for 1cmc. And at 1 cmc, it's a card that'll be hard to keep dead (a feature I strongly dislike in Yu-Gi-Oh). However, being mono colored, I'm not entirely sure what impact it will have in said deck against decks equipped with good repeatable answers.
In addition I feel cards that auto whack for damage should be introduced judiciously into the larger card pool.
These intuitive feelings aren't really enough to turn my thumb down without more playtesting though.
The notion they don't consider other formats when designing the cards is just wrong. Scavenging Ooze, for example.
Still, it seems to be your position that anything is printable if it doesn't unbalance commander. So, with that in mind:
Counterer SpellU
Instant (C) (but really Rare, since this is commander)
Counter target spell you don't control.
Broken in commander? NOPE!
Big Fat 1 Drop G
Creature - Elephant (R)
When ~ enters the battlefield, choose an opponent at random. That player has Protection from Big Fat 1 Drop.
6/6
Broken in commander? NOPE!
Wait, Burn Spell? 3R
Sorcery (R)
~ deals 10 damage to target player.
Broken in commander? NOPE! Heck, probably not even playable!
When he said he designed cards for commander, he meant he designed cards for commander products - something that could realistically be printed in a 100 card deck. He did NOT mean that he designed something that could ONLY be played in commander format, and was never intended to be played in any format where commander cards are also legal.
We can have a sensible disagreement about this card. But the only cards that people have noted that works ANYTHING CLOSE to this are 3 mana creatures. Hence, precedent.
The majority of new cards printed in EDH decks are printed primarily for EDH. Many of the cards specifically refer to multiplayer mechanics or the command zone.
Your counterspell would be played in every blue EDH deck. It would be overpowered for the format in the sense that it would become probably the best counterspell in the entire format in a format where dozens of counterspells are legal. None of the cards I designed, particularly Veko, would do that.
Your green creature spell would be more mana efficient than every other creature in the format with the exception of Serra Ascendant.
These cards would dramatically impact the format. They would both become staples instantly. Veko, Haunted Wretch wouldn't dramatically impact EDH (or eternal formats for that matter). It wouldn't become an instant staple.
You originally said that Veko, Haunted Wretch is "clearly overpowered" and "it's not even close to being balanced for any format". It sounds like you spoke in a hyperbolic manner or didn't realize you were wrong to say that. Neither of those things, particularly the second statement, are true. I have plenty of sensible disagreements with many people on this forum, including yourself. But the notion that this card is just super powerful or broken is pretty silly.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate