Obviously lynching a townie would not be the end of the world, I don't disagree with that. But within the context of your post it seems like a weird thing to say.
Fair enough. I'm asking these questions more so that I can accurately show my point of view. I'm interested in finding and killing scum. To that end, I think we move closer to solving the game by forcing scummy actors to kill each other, and then have to justify it. If a townie dies first, that does put us behind as far as straight numbers, but it might also give us better information about those who did the killing. Basically my thought process is: How many games mislynch D1? fairly often. How often is that a game-ending problem? Almost none.
Like, that literally we should protect townies acting is a scummy way? How do you tell them from the scum exactly?
Even scummy acting townies are townies. Personally I would prefer to lynch scum. And while there is no sure fire way to tell town from scum, I think we can aim higher then a preemptively justified mislynch.
This whole paragraph is like talking to a politician. Slimy. First, "preemptively justified mislynch" is your characterization, not mine. The next part, is like when one politician votes against a pentagon budget increase and their opponent just says "they don't support the troops": "Townies acting scummy are townies too". Duh. But in this game, they aren't likely to be an innocent child, or a doctor, or a cop, or anything. So lets say that we can only identify them for behavior, and if a townie acts in a scummy way, they should be suspected. Don't twist words around so that I look like I'm in favor of killing town because they act scummy. That isn't what I'm saying. The "personally I would perfer to lynch scum" implies that I'd rather lynch townies. Was that the intent? Especially since you agree you can't tell the scum from the town. I'm not saying we should put somebody acting town in a group and get them killed, I'm saying we toss scum reads in there, and see what happens.
"Putting only scummy people in a group and letting them pick the lynch is just begging for a mislynch." - I know this is gonna get taken out of context later, but that's not the worst thing in the world to happen. Think about it.
Again, "not the worst thing in the world" is a pretty low bar. I'm not saying it's the worst thing in the world. I'm saying it's a bad strategy.
How? Let me put it this way: Lets say you propose Me, You, and Shockwave as the group. We get voted. You both vote me, because I've started this line of questioning, and you seem to think it's a little suspect. That's fine. Now, I'm dead on the ground, confirmed town. Is this the worst position for the town to really be in? Confirmed dead town on the ground, two people who voted together to kill him. We've definitely got to take a much harder look at the two of you, since it's possible one or both are scum. We also need to look at who voted for the proposal, since they would know if the three of us were all town (and because of math, would have to be on the wagon unless we voted for outselves). Is that a terrible position? No, there is lots to look at there, and I think the town is much closer to winning than if everyone decides ahead of time that you two kill me.
#3. If we get one scum and two townies into a group, then there is a solid chance that the townies will lynch correctly. This is infinitely more likely to hit scum then possibility #2, and more likely to actually happen then possibility #1.
I'd love to hear why that is likely. How many 3 man endgames have you seen? How many times does scum convince a townie of being scum? A lot. Just because we manage this arrangement, doesn't give us better odds of correctly lynching. All things being equal, I'd actually say the scum in this position is at the advantage.
Given this, I think it would be much better to pick someone that the town collectively trusts to put into each proposal with clear instructions that that person is not to be lynched. If they are lynched, then we know the other two in the group are both scum, which negates the worst case scenario of possibility #2.
And then this. This is a great idea, except that I can't imagine how we're going to find this person. Especially if that person ends up being scum, we'll just hand them the game.
I think one person we trust plus two of our highest suspects is the most likely way to get to possibility #3, which is the best case scenario. I think this will yield better results then putting only our highest suspects in a group, because that strategy is more likely to result in possibility #2, which is the worst case scenario.
So in theory, I like this. Assuming that such a person can be found
I missed the significance of this earlier.
shockwave voting for a proposal including himself and seeing it as a responsibility is actually exceptionally villagery, and not something I find it likely that a wolf would think to fake.
Or if they did, they would save it for later in the phase for a more serious proposal.
How much thought did you put into these groupings?
For example, I note that you put yourself with a fairly new player and a notorious lurker, rather than relishing the challenge to figure out whoever are the most accomplished players in this game.
Propose Team Wobbegong : megiddo, seppel, NAG
vote team wobbegong
I already said that. This guy just put himself in a team.
I'll call your bluff.
@Rodemy - "even a townie acting scummy getting killed by two equally scummy people isn't the end of the world". I actually have said it twice now. Do you disagree with what I said here?
... wasn't that a given? Any town death is a bad thing. Why don't you get that?
@Sep Why did you choose your proposals?
I actually think, that because of that little slip up, that Shockwave is very likely scum and will vote any proposal with him in it, however I will not agree to vote one with him in it and someone else i think is scum and someone i think is town. That is an instant town death anyway.
Should we get reads on each person in the proposal before we vote for them? I don't think seppels way is good, unless he has a good reason. Which he probably doesn't.
Waiting for king deekus to reply for further insight as to who i want to propose.
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Rodemy Pizza
It’s not the best choice, but it’s a choice nonetheless
I don't buy your FOS reasoning, especially since it was this early in the game.
I am not confident in any of the proposals that are out there.I'm gonna wait until there is a good solid one that i can get behind. I can't propose one yet because i am not confident who is town due to pure lack of posts so far.
But I will be keeping an eye on Shock and Deekus.
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Rodemy Pizza
It’s not the best choice, but it’s a choice nonetheless
Currently I'm actually feeling good about you, but do hope you keep a healthy dose of suspicion. Not a Gimmick is looking townie for looking back at me for now.
Mindreaver could go either way at the moment. Seen mechanics as something to hide behind in off site games so naturally I'm a bit suspicious of this, but it isn't a solid read.
Seppel is too squirrelly for me to get a read yet. Come on, grouping each into a Pokemon team group based on each team having one letter shared between each? I don't appreciate being on team (as I'm dubbing it) KKK.
Not cool dude.
No solid scum reads so have to do some more reading, but wanted to get this much out there while it was fresh in my mind.
Currently I'm actually feeling good about you, but do hope you keep a healthy dose of suspicion. Not a Gimmick is looking townie for looking back at me for now.
Mindreaver could go either way at the moment. Seen mechanics as something to hide behind in off site games so naturally I'm a bit suspicious of this, but it isn't a solid read.
Seppel is too squirrelly for me to get a read yet. Come on, grouping each into a Pokemon team group based on each team having one letter shared between each? I don't appreciate being on team (as I'm dubbing it) KKK.
Not cool dude.
No solid scum reads so have to do some more reading, but wanted to get this much out there while it was fresh in my mind.
What no Not a Gimmick is totes scum.
Putting yourself on a possible vote this early in the game is a 100% scum play.
Currently I'm actually feeling good about you, but do hope you keep a healthy dose of suspicion. Not a Gimmick is looking townie for looking back at me for now.
Mindreaver could go either way at the moment. Seen mechanics as something to hide behind in off site games so naturally I'm a bit suspicious of this, but it isn't a solid read.
Seppel is too squirrelly for me to get a read yet. Come on, grouping each into a Pokemon team group based on each team having one letter shared between each? I don't appreciate being on team (as I'm dubbing it) KKK.
Not cool dude.
No solid scum reads so have to do some more reading, but wanted to get this much out there while it was fresh in my mind.
What no Not a Gimmick is totes scum.
Putting yourself on a possible vote this early in the game is a 100% scum play.
Hey, put some reasoning behind that. I dare you.
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Rodemy Pizza
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One thing we should be prepared to do is give our reads before a proposal is pushed through. Given we don't know who will live (in only the most extreme cases if any!) we should be prepared to give our reads.
Doing some calculations and we have 3 mislynches before Lylo, 4 before loss until the first mafia ejection. Then the numbers up to 5 and 6. Repeat for second and 3 with (7/8) and (9/10) respectively.
So we have plenty of time... More than plenty of time.
On to business.
Unvote
Proposal Dead Nuts: Seppel, Kpaca, and Mindreaver.
I think I am rather content to let mindreaver and deekus yell at each other some more.
Seems like a perfect pair to put in a proposal together at some point.
deekus I have no read on as yet, except that he seems a bit focused on mechanics for my taste.
mindreaver seems ok but is not the bastion of villageriness I know him to be capable of.
More on this situation as it develops.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I can tell you all right now that I will never be satisfied with a read on rodemy.
This is not the type of player I have much luck discerning their alignment.
I will likely make some big post about him eventually where I have come to some absolute conclusion.
Do not let me forget I said this.
shockwave voting for a proposal including himself and seeing it as a responsibility is actually exceptionally villagery
Why do you think that's a villagery thing to do? Premature lynchmobs just kinda feel wrong to me in this situation. Please explain to me.
You misunderstand me.
It's not the vote, nor the earliness, nor the fact he is a part of the proposal that he is voting for that is important to me.
It's that line that accompanies it:
>"Give me the shot captain"
He does not think he will be the one lynched in the grouping, which would be on a wolf's mind unless he has a partner in the grouping as well.
He does not think about looking bad if a villager gets lynched out of the grouping.
He simply wants the chance to try to kill a wolf.
Obviously it is too early to be certain of anything, but I think that is easily the most villagery post in the thread so far.
As fun as this sounds, do you feel this is optimal play?
What do you think? What's the optimal play for you? I'm still trying to figure out how to approach this. So I'll just stick to trying to create content...
I would appreciate if you would not answer questions directed at others. There is a reason I asked it, and will engage DV on the subject as I see fit.
Who do you think are the most accomplished players in this game? (That's a question for all of you actually)
(snip)
So first you state, that it's a very villagery thing to go ahead and put yourself on a proposal and then you instantly do the same. If it really is the most villagery thing to do in this game
that's fine. But I have to think that one through... Feels scummy to me when people 'clear' themselves with assumptions they put out there themselves. Any comment on that?
And again, this was just a misunderstanding of my earlier point. It is NOT inherently townie to put yourself in a proposal, especially when we do not know the alignments of the other players involved.
As for the most accomplished players, that is the grouping I proposed.
seppel and meggido I have some experience with and a decent amount of respect for. Thus making the name of the proposal a type of shark.
Now nykllor, I like that you chose to engage me over everyone else.
I think I have already made quite clear that I am no easy target, so plus points for you on that.
So tell me:
What is your read of me?
Have you played forum mafia before?
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Curiosity killed the cat. But for awhile, I was a suspect.
@not_a_gimmick: Idk what all this chat about Villagery is. We are a town. Not a village
and I see your reasoning and raise you this: You can use that same argument to say he is scum too.
[b]"He does not think he will be the one lynched in the grouping, which would be on a wolf's mind unless he has a partner in the grouping as well.
He does not think about looking bad if a villager gets lynched out of the grouping."
Also, side note: I am assuming you are using the terms wolf and villager to mean "Scum" and "Townie" in this sense. Please refer to them as the latter to avoid confusion. It seriously took me a second and it's annoying since this is called "Mafia" not "Werewolf" Thanks.
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Rodemy Pizza
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I almost just want to run 4 groups of 3 straight up and see how the cookies crumble. I know its a terrible idea but it appeals to me so much because of what this game is.
That was my first desire but Xyre was like "no deal" also Kpaca's plan is best plan.
@Rodemy - "even a townie acting scummy getting killed by two equally scummy people isn't the end of the world". I actually have said it twice now. Do you disagree with what I said here?
While I agree with your plan, I think Kpaca's is better.
Sorry, but they are garbage. First, you managed to put BOTH the people beginning with N in the same group. Also, you put erryone in exactly one group, giving me nothing to analyze.
Well I think I did a good job of characterizing everyone. My favorite is team instinct. And I even put the newbies/gimmicks in Team Rocket!
I missed the significance of this earlier.
shockwave voting for a proposal including himself and seeing it as a responsibility is actually exceptionally villagery, and not something I find it likely that a wolf would think to fake.
Or if they did, they would save it for later in the phase for a more serious proposal.
How much thought did you put into these groupings?
For example, I note that you put yourself with a fairly new player and a notorious lurker, rather than relishing the challenge to figure out whoever are the most accomplished players in this game.
Propose Team Wobbegong : megiddo, seppel, NAG
vote team wobbegong
I already said that. This guy just put himself in a team.
I'll call your bluff.
Shockwave seems to be picking up some suspicion and I am not really sure why.
But other than rodemy, no one has actually interacted with him in a meaningful way. Just some people talking about him, and deekus (shockingly) disagreeing with the stoppage of mechanics talk.
#1 My read of you: That's the one I'm trying to figure out at the moment. I am under the vage impression you're not too comfortable being questioned.
I'd like you to come back to my question about the optimal play after DV has responded to you because I still need an answer. Nevertheless I engaged on you
because it seemed to me that you we're an accomplished player yourself. I need a solid starting point. You are a very light scumread on my list at the moment.
#2 played before: Yes, I have played before. Not on this board. Not in this year. So I might be a little rusty...
Would you please describe your point of view on Seppel's towngame in general for me? What is he like as a townie?
What gave you that impression? You are the first to ask me any questions.
As for seppel, he acts a bit crazy at times but I've found him to be quite insightful if you can manage to make him explain.
Perhaps he puts too much credence in some tells, but we are all guilty of attaching too much significance to our favorites.
You cannot read him on tone or confidence, so he really is best figured out later when there has been some flips. But I have some theories.
I see your reasoning and raise you this: You can use that same argument to say he is scum too.
How so? Being lynched and looking bad should be foremost on any [unfriendly force]'s mind.
Of course there is the side case that mindreaver just happened to put two [evil people] and a [member of the community of good people] in the proposal.
But I do not think he would word it like that when what he is actually thinking is "ah yes. we get to lynch a [defenseless denizen of the small city]"
Obviously lynching a townie would not be the end of the world, I don't disagree with that. But within the context of your post it seems like a weird thing to say.
Quote from Mindreaver »
Like, that literally we should protect townies acting is a scummy way? How do you tell them from the scum exactly?
Even scummy acting townies are townies. Personally I would prefer to lynch scum. And while there is no sure fire way to tell town from scum, I think we can aim higher then a preemptively justified mislynch.
Quote from Mindreaver »
"Putting only scummy people in a group and letting them pick the lynch is just begging for a mislynch." - I know this is gonna get taken out of context later, but that's not the worst thing in the world to happen. Think about it.
Again, "not the worst thing in the world" is a pretty low bar. I'm not saying it's the worst thing in the world. I'm saying it's a bad strategy.
Let's break it down by the numbers.
#1. If we get three scum into a group, then we automatically hit scum because they will have to lynch someone. But this is very unlikely. The chance that none of our picks are townies is pretty low.
#2. If we put two scum and one townie into a group, then the townie's dead automatically. Not only that, but we give those two scum a chance to communicate and coordinate privately. This is the worst possibility, and more likely to happen then possibility #1.
#3. If we get one scum and two townies into a group, then there is a solid chance that the townies will lynch correctly. This is infinitely more likely to hit scum then possibility #2, and more likely to actually happen then possibility #1.
#4. If we put all townies in a group, then we lose a townie no matter what. Obviously want to avoid this.
Given this, I think it would be much better to pick someone that the town collectively trusts to put into each proposal with clear instructions that that person is not to be lynched. If they are lynched, then we know the other two in the group are both scum, which negates the worst case scenario of possibility #2. I think one person we trust plus two of our highest suspects is the most likely way to get to possibility #3, which is the best case scenario. I think this will yield better results then putting only our highest suspects in a group, because that strategy is more likely to result in possibility #2, which is the worst case scenario.
Quote from Shockwave07 »
Let's not get too stuck on this vote strategy business. Watched too many times (including my first game host recently) town players get caught up on mechanics and not the players actions.
I think a little more discussion on the subject would be healthy. I agree that too much focus could distract us from actual scum hunting, but I don't think we are there yet.
Quote from Rodemy »
@king Deekus: Do you actually think Mindreaver is scum?
He's the only person who has pinged my scumdar, but it's hardly enough for me to have a solid read on him.
Quote from Rodemy »
EBWODP: ALSO DEEKUS- Why did you vote mindreaver instead of proposing a group
I was using my "Vote" more as a FOS. I don't have enough of a read on him, or anyone else for that matter, to propose a group.
Unlike Mindreaver I don't think you are actually trying to add anything to this discussion.
Proposal FROG: Megiddo, Deekus, Mindreaver
VOTE FROG
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
@NAG You literally said it in your argument for him being town.
He does not think he will be the one lynched in the grouping, which would be on a wolf's mind unless he has a partner in the grouping as well.
"WHICH WOULD BE ON A (SCUMS) MIND"
._. is anyone else seeing this? please, speak up.
How can you say his thinking could be scum and not see it as an argument for him being scum?
I actually thought the same thing when I first saw NAGs post. I had to read it a few times. I guess he's just saying Shockwave couldn't be that guileless. Which I believe is Shock's argument as well (#80).
Shock either thought that he wouldn't be the lynch because he is mafia. Which means he would give us his partner when nominating/voting. That would be a VERY bold move. I don't see Shock pulling that off.
Or he didn't realize/care that he could be the lynch, thinking that the other people he proposed (which I couldn't be bothered to look up) are more likely lynches. Which is how I'm reading this, thus far.
On another topic, I'm not sure how much I trust people voting themselves into a position of power. That seems to favor a scum player a lot more than a town one. I'm especially suspicious of the two people (Seppel and Megs) offering to be the "third vote" between myself and Deekus. If I was scum, the clear way to kill people and avoid suspicion altogether is to find town on town arguments, and offer to chose between them. I'm not saying I think Deekus is town, but I don't think we're a dichotomy either.
I'm not fool enough to think I'm never a possible lynch in a game. The number of games I've not been lynched are fewer than those I haven't been. 8 to 13.
Even games I replace out of my slot is still likely lynched, making it 8 to 17 that I'm aware of.
I still want to see you lynched, but until then I will do what I can to keep discussion flowing.
I've got a list of reads, but until we're closer to a proposal going through I'm going to be keeping them close to chest.
I had a town read on Seppel, until I saw his read of you and his reaction to me. Now it's a bit more muddled.
I have not one problem being the flip if it gets us closer to finding the scum, but I want a shot at being the hero first. Fate isn't always kind.
@Shock: I am having trouble following who you are talking to, could you specify in your posts. It would make me reading you a lot easier and i wouldn't have to go looking
I think NAG's townread of Shockwave comes from knowing he is town. there is no way, with that reasoning he had, that he pulled a town read out of it.
ALSO [b]@ DV [/b]
you never put reasoning behind your scumread of NAG. i'd like to hear it.
I don't think NAG and Shockwave should be proposed together for the sole purpose that they could be scum together and NAG is trying to throw us off, or Shock IS town and NAG knows it. That being said, the first part (scum together) is the reason i think we should keep those two seperated from now on.
So i will, instead of making a proposal, voting one.
[b] vote team wobbegong [/b[
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Rodemy Pizza
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You reply to me, but answer the question as if I'm not really there NAG posted the way he did because he knows Shockwave is town.
Then you bounce over to replying to DV and throw out two other scenarios, one not supported by the above statement, and the one you are going for? I don't think NAG and Shock should be proposed together, they maybe scum together.
It's like you bounced in thought in the matter of time it took you to type that short bit up!
Obviously lynching a townie would not be the end of the world, I don't disagree with that. But within the context of your post it seems like a weird thing to say.
Quote from Mindreaver »
Like, that literally we should protect townies acting is a scummy way? How do you tell them from the scum exactly?
Even scummy acting townies are townies. Personally I would prefer to lynch scum. And while there is no sure fire way to tell town from scum, I think we can aim higher then a preemptively justified mislynch.
Quote from Mindreaver »
"Putting only scummy people in a group and letting them pick the lynch is just begging for a mislynch." - I know this is gonna get taken out of context later, but that's not the worst thing in the world to happen. Think about it.
Again, "not the worst thing in the world" is a pretty low bar. I'm not saying it's the worst thing in the world. I'm saying it's a bad strategy.
Let's break it down by the numbers.
#1. If we get three scum into a group, then we automatically hit scum because they will have to lynch someone. But this is very unlikely. The chance that none of our picks are townies is pretty low.
#2. If we put two scum and one townie into a group, then the townie's dead automatically. Not only that, but we give those two scum a chance to communicate and coordinate privately. This is the worst possibility, and more likely to happen then possibility #1.
#3. If we get one scum and two townies into a group, then there is a solid chance that the townies will lynch correctly. This is infinitely more likely to hit scum then possibility #2, and more likely to actually happen then possibility #1.
#4. If we put all townies in a group, then we lose a townie no matter what. Obviously want to avoid this.
Given this, I think it would be much better to pick someone that the town collectively trusts to put into each proposal with clear instructions that that person is not to be lynched. If they are lynched, then we know the other two in the group are both scum, which negates the worst case scenario of possibility #2. I think one person we trust plus two of our highest suspects is the most likely way to get to possibility #3, which is the best case scenario. I think this will yield better results then putting only our highest suspects in a group, because that strategy is more likely to result in possibility #2, which is the worst case scenario.
Quote from Shockwave07 »
Let's not get too stuck on this vote strategy business. Watched too many times (including my first game host recently) town players get caught up on mechanics and not the players actions.
I think a little more discussion on the subject would be healthy. I agree that too much focus could distract us from actual scum hunting, but I don't think we are there yet.
Quote from Rodemy »
@king Deekus: Do you actually think Mindreaver is scum?
He's the only person who has pinged my scumdar, but it's hardly enough for me to have a solid read on him.
Quote from Rodemy »
EBWODP: ALSO DEEKUS- Why did you vote mindreaver instead of proposing a group
I was using my "Vote" more as a FOS. I don't have enough of a read on him, or anyone else for that matter, to propose a group.
Unlike Mindreaver I don't think you are actually trying to add anything to this discussion.
@NAG You literally said it in your argument for him being town.
He does not think he will be the one lynched in the grouping, which would be on a wolf's mind unless he has a partner in the grouping as well.
"WHICH WOULD BE ON A (SCUMS) MIND"
._. is anyone else seeing this? please, speak up.
How can you say his thinking could be scum and not see it as an argument for him being scum?
I actually thought the same thing when I first saw NAGs post. I had to read it a few times. I guess he's just saying Shockwave couldn't be that guileless. Which I believe is Shock's argument as well (#80).
Shock either thought that he wouldn't be the lynch because he is mafia. Which means he would give us his partner when nominating/voting. That would be a VERY bold move. I don't see Shock pulling that off.
Or he didn't realize/care that he could be the lynch, thinking that the other people he proposed (which I couldn't be bothered to look up) are more likely lynches. Which is how I'm reading this, thus far.
On another topic, I'm not sure how much I trust people voting themselves into a position of power. That seems to favor a scum player a lot more than a town one. I'm especially suspicious of the two people (Seppel and Megs) offering to be the "third vote" between myself and Deekus. If I was scum, the clear way to kill people and avoid suspicion altogether is to find town on town arguments, and offer to chose between them. I'm not saying I think Deekus is town, but I don't think we're a dichotomy either.
Did you miss the part where I suggested that people do this as a thought experiment? This is exactly what I'm trying to get people to do.
Rodemy - Town until easily proven otherwise. If he's scum, he'll slip up and/or replace out.
kpaca - Lean town. Pretty sure I know how to read him now.
Tordeck - Need more info
Shockwave07 - Need more info
Nykllor - Need more info
dkingsland967 - Need more info
D_V - Need more info
not_a_gimmick - Not the same NaG I remember from Goldeneye.
Megiddo - Mr. Unoriginal. I'd be fine with him dying asap, and I don't want him in a box with Deekus.
King_Deekus - Conversation with Mindreaver, hypocrisy, numbers.
That was less polarizing than I though. If you're in "need more info" you should post more so I know your true nature.
I don't understand why anyone thinks Deekus is scum.
His first couple posts showed he clearly didn't have a grasp on the rules/mechanics of the game, and that's the kind of stuff scum discuss in pregame. It can be faked by a savvy player, but in this case I think it's legit.
Did you miss the part where I suggested that people do this as a thought experiment? This is exactly what I'm trying to get people to do.
Meaning vote themselves into a group? I didn't miss it, but I guess I didn't give much thought to your motivations for doing so either. Sorry if I messed that up.
@dKingsland: I'm not even sure scum team got a pre-game chat, or even a quicktopic, due to the nature of this game and this hint in the opening post: space mafia lost their guns and communicators. So no NK and no Night, why do they need a QT of their own?
I'll take my own look at Deekus. Also have to say now that the reason you presented isn't bad in the right context, but considering it now we have to find another reason to clear or condemn Deekus.
@Seppel: Opening post you talked about the player base and I didn't take it was in a positive context. Scum wouldn't think about that. They'd be gloating over it and less likely to point it out in my opinion.
Plus the Pokemon team proposals I feel was just baiting reactions. Why else would you form groups who shared one common letter in their group? NEKD
Also what do you think of this bit from Mindreaver's post 33: The two-town-one-scum scenario would work better once we have killed scum, and have people on the record voting to kill him. If Shockwave, Seppel, and Tordeck go into a room, deliberate among themselves, and kill a scum tordeck, I would have a lot stronger town read on D_V/Shock later on in the game when we NEED to murder the last scum, and we think it's Rodemy.
Also what do you think of this bit from Mindreaver's post 33: The two-town-one-scum scenario would work better once we have killed scum, and have people on the record voting to kill him. If Shockwave, Seppel, and Tordeck go into a room, deliberate among themselves, and kill a scum tordeck, I would have a lot stronger town read on D_V/Shock later on in the game when we NEED to murder the last scum, and we think it's Rodemy.
Just because I didn't understand this at first when I read it, and then checked my own post. The bolded should have been Seppel. Hopefully that example makes more sense.
I don't understand why anyone thinks Deekus is scum.
His first couple posts showed he clearly didn't have a grasp on the rules/mechanics of the game, and that's the kind of stuff scum discuss in pregame. It can be faked by a savvy player, but in this case I think it's legit.
Did you miss the part where I suggested that people do this as a thought experiment? This is exactly what I'm trying to get people to do.
Meaning vote themselves into a group? I didn't miss it, but I guess I didn't give much thought to your motivations for doing so either. Sorry if I messed that up.
I mean it's kind of ruined now, but it would have been godly for information.
Also what do you think of this bit from Mindreaver's post 33: The two-town-one-scum scenario would work better once we have killed scum, and have people on the record voting to kill him. If Shockwave, Seppel, and Tordeck go into a room, deliberate among themselves, and kill a scum tordeck, I would have a lot stronger town read on D_V/Shock later on in the game when we NEED to murder the last scum, and we think it's Rodemy.
Just because I didn't understand this at first when I read it, and then checked my own post. The bolded should have been Seppel. Hopefully that example makes more sense.
I got even more confused because I thought I was still talking to Shockwave.
I don't think Shock's assessment is true.
This game is kind of like Ace Attorney on crack. We're essentially deciding on a lynch ahead of time and then telling these other two people to go do it.
The look of the group of Wobbegong isn't bad, even if I'm questioning if you are town or not Seppel, feel good about Not a Gimmick, and Meg... I can't really get a good read off of her one post.
The wagon so far (besides NAG) is not as good. Right now I'm null on DV and I don't trust Rodemy. Until I get a better view on this I'm not trusting this push.
@dKingsland: I'm not even sure scum team got a pre-game chat, or even a quicktopic, due to the nature of this game and this hint in the opening post: space mafia lost their guns and communicators. So no NK and no Night, why do they need a QT of their own?
I'll take my own look at Deekus. Also have to say now that the reason you presented isn't bad in the right context, but considering it now we have to find another reason to clear or condemn Deekus.
Ugh, you're right. It's right there in the rules post: no scum chat.
Goddammit.
Now I have to actually read the wall-of-text war between Deekus and Mindreaver.
The look of the group of Wobbegong isn't bad, even if I'm questioning if you are town or not Seppel, feel good about Not a Gimmick, and Meg... I can't really get a good read off of her one post.
What exactly is appealing to you about Wobbegong when it hosts one town read and two undecideds?
This whole paragraph is like talking to a politician. Slimy. First, "preemptively justified mislynch" is your characterization, not mine. The next part, is like when one politician votes against a pentagon budget increase and their opponent just says "they don't support the troops": "Townies acting scummy are townies too". Duh. But in this game, they aren't likely to be an innocent child, or a doctor, or a cop, or anything. So lets say that we can only identify them for behavior, and if a townie acts in a scummy way, they should be suspected. Don't twist words around so that I look like I'm in favor of killing town because they act scummy. That isn't what I'm saying. The "personally I would perfer to lynch scum" implies that I'd rather lynch townies. Was that the intent? Especially since you agree you can't tell the scum from the town. I'm not saying we should put somebody acting town in a group and get them killed, I'm saying we toss scum reads in there, and see what happens.
How? Let me put it this way: Lets say you propose Me, You, and Shockwave as the group. We get voted. You both vote me, because I've started this line of questioning, and you seem to think it's a little suspect. That's fine. Now, I'm dead on the ground, confirmed town. Is this the worst position for the town to really be in? Confirmed dead town on the ground, two people who voted together to kill him. We've definitely got to take a much harder look at the two of you, since it's possible one or both are scum. We also need to look at who voted for the proposal, since they would know if the three of us were all town (and because of math, would have to be on the wagon unless we voted for outselves). Is that a terrible position? No, there is lots to look at there, and I think the town is much closer to winning than if everyone decides ahead of time that you two kill me.
Good point there.
I'd love to hear why that is likely. How many 3 man endgames have you seen? How many times does scum convince a townie of being scum? A lot. Just because we manage this arrangement, doesn't give us better odds of correctly lynching. All things being equal, I'd actually say the scum in this position is at the advantage. I'd like to hear how you plan to avoid this. @Everyone - Can you just raise your hand if you're honest to goodness town. No liars!
And then this. This is a great idea, except that I can't imagine how we're going to find this person. Especially if that person ends up being scum, we'll just hand them the game.
So in theory, I like this. Assuming that such a person can be found
I already said that. This guy just put himself in a team.
I'll call your bluff.
vote team wobbegong
... wasn't that a given? Any town death is a bad thing. Why don't you get that?
@Sep Why did you choose your proposals?
I actually think, that because of that little slip up, that Shockwave is very likely scum and will vote any proposal with him in it, however I will not agree to vote one with him in it and someone else i think is scum and someone i think is town. That is an instant town death anyway.
Should we get reads on each person in the proposal before we vote for them? I don't think seppels way is good, unless he has a good reason. Which he probably doesn't.
Waiting for king deekus to reply for further insight as to who i want to propose.
I don't buy your FOS reasoning, especially since it was this early in the game.
I am not confident in any of the proposals that are out there.I'm gonna wait until there is a good solid one that i can get behind. I can't propose one yet because i am not confident who is town due to pure lack of posts so far.
But I will be keeping an eye on Shock and Deekus.
Currently I'm actually feeling good about you, but do hope you keep a healthy dose of suspicion. Not a Gimmick is looking townie for looking back at me for now.
Mindreaver could go either way at the moment. Seen mechanics as something to hide behind in off site games so naturally I'm a bit suspicious of this, but it isn't a solid read.
Seppel is too squirrelly for me to get a read yet. Come on, grouping each into a Pokemon team group based on each team having one letter shared between each? I don't appreciate being on team (as I'm dubbing it) KKK.
Not cool dude.
No solid scum reads so have to do some more reading, but wanted to get this much out there while it was fresh in my mind.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
What no Not a Gimmick is totes scum.
Putting yourself on a possible vote this early in the game is a 100% scum play.
Hey, put some reasoning behind that. I dare you.
Doing some calculations and we have 3 mislynches before Lylo, 4 before loss until the first mafia ejection. Then the numbers up to 5 and 6. Repeat for second and 3 with (7/8) and (9/10) respectively.
So we have plenty of time... More than plenty of time.
On to business.
Unvote
Proposal Dead Nuts: Seppel, Kpaca, and Mindreaver.
You demonstrating the airlock with Mindreaver?
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
Seems like a perfect pair to put in a proposal together at some point.
deekus I have no read on as yet, except that he seems a bit focused on mechanics for my taste.
mindreaver seems ok but is not the bastion of villageriness I know him to be capable of.
More on this situation as it develops.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I can tell you all right now that I will never be satisfied with a read on rodemy.
This is not the type of player I have much luck discerning their alignment.
I will likely make some big post about him eventually where I have come to some absolute conclusion.
Do not let me forget I said this.
You misunderstand me.
It's not the vote, nor the earliness, nor the fact he is a part of the proposal that he is voting for that is important to me.
It's that line that accompanies it:
>"Give me the shot captain"
He does not think he will be the one lynched in the grouping, which would be on a wolf's mind unless he has a partner in the grouping as well.
He does not think about looking bad if a villager gets lynched out of the grouping.
He simply wants the chance to try to kill a wolf.
Obviously it is too early to be certain of anything, but I think that is easily the most villagery post in the thread so far. I would appreciate if you would not answer questions directed at others. There is a reason I asked it, and will engage DV on the subject as I see fit. And again, this was just a misunderstanding of my earlier point. It is NOT inherently townie to put yourself in a proposal, especially when we do not know the alignments of the other players involved.
As for the most accomplished players, that is the grouping I proposed.
seppel and meggido I have some experience with and a decent amount of respect for. Thus making the name of the proposal a type of shark.
Now nykllor, I like that you chose to engage me over everyone else.
I think I have already made quite clear that I am no easy target, so plus points for you on that.
So tell me:
What is your read of me?
Have you played forum mafia before?
The Family
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
and I see your reasoning and raise you this: You can use that same argument to say he is scum too.
[b]"He does not think he will be the one lynched in the grouping, which would be on a wolf's mind unless he has a partner in the grouping as well.
He does not think about looking bad if a villager gets lynched out of the grouping."
Also, side note: I am assuming you are using the terms wolf and villager to mean "Scum" and "Townie" in this sense. Please refer to them as the latter to avoid confusion. It seriously took me a second and it's annoying since this is called "Mafia" not "Werewolf" Thanks.
*Whistle* WOMP WOMP WOOOOOMP
King Deekus is scum and Mindreaver is town.
Kpaca is making sense this game.
Nag is underwhelming.
Shockwave says "let's not discuss strategy" the proceeds to discuss strategy. You're on notice. Rodemy is likely town for noticing this.
DK agreeing with Rodemy is underwhelming.
Oh god Deekus is doing numbers. Kill it with fire.
That was my first desire but Xyre was like "no deal" also Kpaca's plan is best plan.
While I agree with your plan, I think Kpaca's is better.
Well I think I did a good job of characterizing everyone. My favorite is team instinct. And I even put the newbies/gimmicks in Team Rocket!
@NAG and Rodemy: See above.
Here's a thought experiment for EVERYONE:
PROPOSE A GROUP THAT INCLUDES YOURSELF IN IT.
Unvote
Propose Seppel (Seppel, Mindreaver, Deekus)
Hell no.
Okay.
Proposal Rodemy: (Rodemy, Seppel,Shockwave)
"Dead Nuts" has been renamed to "Nuts".
Vote Count
(7 to pass)
Instinct: D_V, Megiddo, Rodemy
1 - Seppel
Nuts: kpaca, Mindreaver, Seppel
1 - Shockwave07
Wobbegong: Megiddo, not_a_gimmick, Seppel
2 - not_a_gimmick, D_V
Mystic: Mindreaver, Seppel, Tordeck
1 - Tordeck
RVS-One: Seppel, Shockwave07, Tordeck
1 - Mindreaver
Active Proposals
None
Rocket: King_Deekus, not_a_gimmick, Nykllor
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
AUTO LYNCH.
NOW WE HAVE ANARCHY!
Propose SMD (Seppel, Mindreaver, Deekus)
Well then.
*snicker*
SMD...
Seppel, are you being coy?
It's why I'm in every proposal.
But other than rodemy, no one has actually interacted with him in a meaningful way. Just some people talking about him, and deekus (shockingly) disagreeing with the stoppage of mechanics talk.
What gave you that impression? You are the first to ask me any questions.
As for seppel, he acts a bit crazy at times but I've found him to be quite insightful if you can manage to make him explain.
Perhaps he puts too much credence in some tells, but we are all guilty of attaching too much significance to our favorites.
You cannot read him on tone or confidence, so he really is best figured out later when there has been some flips. But I have some theories. Ah. Good to see you. How so? Being lynched and looking bad should be foremost on any [unfriendly force]'s mind.
Of course there is the side case that mindreaver just happened to put two [evil people] and a [member of the community of good people] in the proposal.
But I do not think he would word it like that when what he is actually thinking is "ah yes. we get to lynch a [defenseless denizen of the small city]" What is the proper amount of whelm at this point in the game?
And how do you feel about team wobbegong? Shall we discuss optimal strategy?
It's quite foxy and exciting.
We cannot have any crew members sleeping on the job.
He does not think he will be the one lynched in the grouping, which would be on a wolf's mind unless he has a partner in the grouping as well.
"WHICH WOULD BE ON A (SCUMS) MIND"
._. is anyone else seeing this? please, speak up.
How can you say his thinking could be scum and not see it as an argument for him being scum?
Do you believe that is my mindset above Rodemy? Is there a reason to believe I'm teammate with one of the two in the first proposal?
Or is there a different direction you intend this to be taken?
@Seppel: So much for me thinking you were town.
Unvote, Vote Proposal Blunt: Shockwave07, Seppel, Kpaca
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
Proposal FROG: Megiddo, Deekus, Mindreaver
VOTE FROG
Shock either thought that he wouldn't be the lynch because he is mafia. Which means he would give us his partner when nominating/voting. That would be a VERY bold move. I don't see Shock pulling that off.
Or he didn't realize/care that he could be the lynch, thinking that the other people he proposed (which I couldn't be bothered to look up) are more likely lynches. Which is how I'm reading this, thus far.
On another topic, I'm not sure how much I trust people voting themselves into a position of power. That seems to favor a scum player a lot more than a town one. I'm especially suspicious of the two people (Seppel and Megs) offering to be the "third vote" between myself and Deekus. If I was scum, the clear way to kill people and avoid suspicion altogether is to find town on town arguments, and offer to chose between them. I'm not saying I think Deekus is town, but I don't think we're a dichotomy either.
Even games I replace out of my slot is still likely lynched, making it 8 to 17 that I'm aware of.
I still want to see you lynched, but until then I will do what I can to keep discussion flowing.
I've got a list of reads, but until we're closer to a proposal going through I'm going to be keeping them close to chest.
I had a town read on Seppel, until I saw his read of you and his reaction to me. Now it's a bit more muddled.
I have not one problem being the flip if it gets us closer to finding the scum, but I want a shot at being the hero first. Fate isn't always kind.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
I think NAG's townread of Shockwave comes from knowing he is town. there is no way, with that reasoning he had, that he pulled a town read out of it.
ALSO [b]@ DV [/b]
you never put reasoning behind your scumread of NAG. i'd like to hear it.
I don't think NAG and Shockwave should be proposed together for the sole purpose that they could be scum together and NAG is trying to throw us off, or Shock IS town and NAG knows it. That being said, the first part (scum together) is the reason i think we should keep those two seperated from now on.
So i will, instead of making a proposal, voting one.
[b] vote team wobbegong [/b[
Vote team wobbegong
You reply to me, but answer the question as if I'm not really there NAG posted the way he did because he knows Shockwave is town.
Then you bounce over to replying to DV and throw out two other scenarios, one not supported by the above statement, and the one you are going for? I don't think NAG and Shock should be proposed together, they maybe scum together.
It's like you bounced in thought in the matter of time it took you to type that short bit up!
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
Overwhelmed = You made a post that I can definitely call you a townie for posting.
Whelmed = I like what you're selling.
Underwhelmed = I am bored / anxious from your play so far.
What made you think I was town?
Wow hello Mr. Unoriginal.
Did you miss the part where I suggested that people do this as a thought experiment? This is exactly what I'm trying to get people to do.
This carries no weight unless you can actually point to where you got your town read from. Open your brain to me. I want to see where it went.
Rodemy - Town until easily proven otherwise. If he's scum, he'll slip up and/or replace out.
kpaca - Lean town. Pretty sure I know how to read him now.
Tordeck - Need more info
Shockwave07 - Need more info
Nykllor - Need more info
dkingsland967 - Need more info
D_V - Need more info
not_a_gimmick - Not the same NaG I remember from Goldeneye.
Megiddo - Mr. Unoriginal. I'd be fine with him dying asap, and I don't want him in a box with Deekus.
King_Deekus - Conversation with Mindreaver, hypocrisy, numbers.
That was less polarizing than I though. If you're in "need more info" you should post more so I know your true nature.
His first couple posts showed he clearly didn't have a grasp on the rules/mechanics of the game, and that's the kind of stuff scum discuss in pregame. It can be faked by a savvy player, but in this case I think it's legit.
I'm still not digging Mindreaver or Shockwave.
I'll take my own look at Deekus. Also have to say now that the reason you presented isn't bad in the right context, but considering it now we have to find another reason to clear or condemn Deekus.
@Seppel: Opening post you talked about the player base and I didn't take it was in a positive context. Scum wouldn't think about that. They'd be gloating over it and less likely to point it out in my opinion.
Plus the Pokemon team proposals I feel was just baiting reactions. Why else would you form groups who shared one common letter in their group? NEKD
Also what do you think of this bit from Mindreaver's post 33: The two-town-one-scum scenario would work better once we have killed scum, and have people on the record voting to kill him. If Shockwave, Seppel, and Tordeck go into a room, deliberate among themselves, and kill a scum tordeck, I would have a lot stronger town read on D_V/Shock later on in the game when we NEED to murder the last scum, and we think it's Rodemy.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
(7 to pass)
FROG: King_Deekus, Megiddo, Mindreaver
1 - Megiddo
SMD: King_Deekus, Mindreaver, Seppel
1 - Seppel
Blunt: kpaca, Seppel, Shockwave07
1 - Shockwave07
Wobbegong: Megiddo, not_a_gimmick, Seppel
3 - not_a_gimmick, D_V, Rodemy
Mystic: Mindreaver, Seppel, Tordeck
1 - Tordeck
RVS-One: Seppel, Shockwave07, Tordeck
1 - Mindreaver
Active Proposals
None
Instinct: D_V, Megiddo, Rodemy
Rocket: King_Deekus, not_a_gimmick, Nykllor
Nuts: kpaca, Mindreaver, Seppel
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
IIRC pregame was less than 24 hours long.
DK is town.
I mean it's kind of ruined now, but it would have been godly for information.
Wat. I didn't even realize I did that. I formed the teams based on personality.
You lost with the Mindreaver thing.
I got even more confused because I thought I was still talking to Shockwave.
I don't think Shock's assessment is true.
This game is kind of like Ace Attorney on crack. We're essentially deciding on a lynch ahead of time and then telling these other two people to go do it.
The wagon so far (besides NAG) is not as good. Right now I'm null on DV and I don't trust Rodemy. Until I get a better view on this I'm not trusting this push.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
Ugh, you're right. It's right there in the rules post: no scum chat.
Goddammit.
Now I have to actually read the wall-of-text war between Deekus and Mindreaver.
And you're still voting for it.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
What exactly is appealing to you about Wobbegong when it hosts one town read and two undecideds?