I was going to make a big giant post about why you're wrong and how that makes you scum and then I realized a thing so I'm actually not down with lynching you any more. My early vote on you was part reaction-baiting, part me thinking you could be scum for what seemed like non-genuine opening posts.
So, Unvote.
However, I'm still happy to clear up some misconceptions for you.
As Wheat said, he and I have a Mafia history; one that goes back 5 years. None of my posts or points about suspecting Wheat have even been slightly joking. Outside of yourself, he was my strongest scum read. (Now he is my strongest scum read!)
On that note, Vote Wheat.
Perhaps you're misunderstanding my tone. I can get that, as I'm certainly approaching this game dramatically differently in execution than I was with Townville. However, what you're not considering is how the setup is affecting my process. Electron Cloud is weaker in single scum setups, which relates to the ~reasons~ thing you were curious about, but also still not something I'll be touching on until an unspecified amount of time later, as that will decrease the effectiveness of my approach if I do. I have to wonder why you assume I would automatically share my reasoning for voting a person, though, when you've seen me utilize naked votes as pressure tools both with and without having a reason for scumreading my targets and seeing what falls out when I shake the tree. That seems disingenuous.
I realize that it's difficult to let go of a scum read when they're the original reason you came under pressure, but now that I've performed a small paradigm shift and let a little bit of information on my thoughts loose, that will hopefully assuage your concerns about myself.
I do have a question for you, though - why push me for my railing of you ( ) but not Wheat for the identical push?
I don't understand anything about your read on Vaimes.
I'd like to hear from Anak and DV a bit.
I'm pretty sure Vaimes is not the Cult from the last day or so of posts. Comfortable with Iso, and Tom as well.
@Iso
I'm not sure I agree with your Wheat push Iso. Basically, because you agree with him, he must be the scum? Is it similar to Proph's litmus test when reading me; "If Hunt's acting town, he's scum. If he's acting scummy, he's town?"
Otherwise, he has seemed like normal wheat to me.
Who do you think is scum then? You are down to Anak and DV.
It's the only answer you're getting. I'm not going to make one up.
Yes, for accountability purposes; otherwise, eh.
1. I'm not asking you to make one up. I'm asking you to give me one that's based in factual reality, since the original premise of your push has been proven to be fallacious.
@Iso
I'm not sure I agree with your Wheat push Iso. Basically, because you agree with him, he must be the scum? Is it similar to Proph's litmus test when reading me; "If Hunt's acting town, he's scum. If he's acting scummy, he's town?"
Otherwise, he has seemed like normal wheat to me.
It's more that Wheat and I desperately want to be able to townread each other and when one of us tries to pocket the other, it's usually because the pocketer is scum. S.O.P. for townWheat is "oh wait Iso's first post is totally scummy, better vote him and never try advancing the state of the game beyond that", or along those lines. So, the fact that Wheat not only didn't even scrutinize me initially, but also that he jumped on Vaimes with me naturally has me ing him.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
That's an awful reason to townread me. And you should know that.
I feel like you're waving an "I'm scum but your reasons suck" flag at me. My read is fallicious because you weren't joking about pushing on Wheat, as I thought you were? Who's to say you were joking but switched gears to get me to change my read of you?
That's an awful reason to townread me. And you should know that.
I feel like you're waving an "I'm scum but your reasons suck" flag at me. My read is fallicious because you weren't joking about pushing on Wheat, as I thought you were? Who's to say you were joking but switched gears to get me to change my read of you?
I'll say it - Iso was never really joking about pushing on me. If it's any sort of joke it's the sort of joke that goes "ha ha we'll have clinton or trump in the white house next year, ha ha :("
That's an awful reason to townread me. And you should know that.
I feel like you're waving an "I'm scum but your reasons suck" flag at me. My read is fallicious because you weren't joking about pushing on Wheat, as I thought you were? Who's to say you were joking but switched gears to get me to change my read of you?
I mean you can read literally any game Wheat and I have participated in together within the past 3 years and see this trend, plus Wheat, himself, has confirmed this. I'm not sure what you think I have to gain from creating what would be an extremely easily disprovable lie in this scenario.
Why wouldn't Vaimes have claimed it by now instead of self-voting? I'm trying to wrap my head around how you could possibly think this.
There are a multitude of reasons Vaimes would have taken the course of action he did as the Deprogrammer and it's absolutely silly (read as: scummy) that you're pretending you can't fathom any of them.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
If there are a multitude of reasons, share one then? Because the way I see it there's only one line of reasoning that makes sense, which is that it's better for the deprogrammer to claim than be lynched on Day 1, and then use that townfirm status to try to win the game D1 before they can no longer be trusted.
"Hurr durr maybe if I self-vote myself to L-1 people will either flip out and back off or we'll get a bad hammer from the Cultist and lynch them the next Day"?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Damn you totally caught me! Superb scum play right there, fishing for a reaction instead of just discreetly capitalizing on the perceived breadcrumb by recruiting you N1 and trying to lynch someone else, and acting surprised when you get run up and claim Deprogrammer on a later Day!
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
"Hurr durr maybe if I self-vote myself to L-1 people will either flip out and back off or we'll get a bad hammer from the Cultist and lynch them the next Day"?
Damn you totally caught me! Superb scum play right there, fishing for a reaction instead of just discreetly capitalizing on the perceived breadcrumb by recruiting you N1 and trying to lynch someone else, and acting surprised when you get run up and claim Deprogrammer on a later Day!
Okay so, none of the reasons above actually would lead you to thinking Vaimes is the Deprogrammer though. The Cultist would never hammer in that situation, for the exact reason you give, and attempting to induce panic to dissipate your wagon is so ludicrously risky.
It feels more like fishing to me as well, but it's strange to me because it's not like he would just come out and say, "oh yes, that's what I am."
Tom is hard to read because of the flavor text, slight town on him because of consistent mindset and votes. DV is null still, Hunt I actually think k is town because of how emotionally charged he got. I would expect him to remain calm more as scum. Vaimes I see as town from that vote gambit, at this point it makes more sense for that vote gambit to come from town. Wheat I have agreed with on things, not yet sure if that's a good thing though, null. Iso is my top candidate for scum, he comes across as more of wanting to look like he is solving the game as opposed to actually trying to solve it. On top of that, I dislike the fishing there about roles.
@Hunt seconding the what are your scumread question.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
vaimes - An enlightened soul caged in a body made for battle.
anak - On Naya, ambition and treachery are scarce, hunted nearly to extinction by the awe owed to terrestrial gods.
huntz - For the necromancer barons, killing and recruitment are one and the same.
DV - It's simple, really. If they can't find us, they can't kill us.
wheat - Momentum is a great ally.
iso - When you've got the temperament of a dragon, every argument is one you'll win.
Please tell me you all huddled together pre-game in a PM or something and said, "You know what would be funny? Let's troll Iso for the first few days of the game and then actually play it once the joke is over."
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Please tell me you all huddled together pre-game in a PM or something and said, "You know what would be funny? Let's troll Iso for the first few days of the game and then actually play it once the joke is over."
Finding themselves in a new and unexplored world, they immediately set it on fire.
Please tell me you all huddled together pre-game in a PM or something and said, "You know what would be funny? Let's troll Iso for the first few days of the game and then actually play it once the joke is over."
If I act indignant, then everyone will must see how town I am.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Wheat and I have been playing Mafia together almost as long as I've been playing Mafia. We're also good friends OoG.
Wheat and I have had hours-long discussions on Mafia Theory and reading each other in Mafia games, to the point where Wheat created a flowchart to help him determine my alignment. (He eventually scrapped the flowchart, IIRC, due to a game I'm about to mention.)
We always want the other to be town when we are town, but even when we're both town, we always find some reason to scumread the other. (There was one game - Battle Factory Mafia - where I was the Cop and Wheat was the Vig and I falsecrumbed Bulletproof so he wouldn't shoot me. Then he shot me.)
Wheat's also extremely paranoid of me ever getting one over on him in a Mafia game. I believe this trend started with CCMVI, but it can be seen as recently as Ace Attorney Mafia. Ergo, Wheat's natural paranoia tends to overtake his rational mind when it comes to playing with me.
I have a trust tell. When I claim VT, I am VT. However, I make it a point never to claim my role in games where the setup is openly known to house a large number of Vanillas, such as this game, as that dramatically reduces the fairness of the game in question. Wheat is not only aware of my trust tell, he is aware of my self-imposed restriction on games with setups akin to this one.
So, take a look at all of this in the context of this game.
Wheat started on Vaimes in a similar manner that I did, after I opened the floodgates on Vaimes. This was opportunistic.
Then, as soon as I expressed my change of read on Vaimes and started voting Wheat, the Iso wagon gained traction, and Wheat immediately hopped on.
This is disingenuous, and even more opportunistic than his previous actions. Wheat can't even keep track of his read on me! In post #56, Wheat says, "Feeling good about Tom and Iso."
The basis of this read, I assume, is the fact that I was pushing on Vaimes at the time, considering in the same post he called Vaimes scum and commended my pushing of him.
Then I expressed my scum read of Wheat, and Wheat's very next post says, "still pretty sure tom is town. Can't remember if I said that already.
I see exactly where he's coming from and he's wrong but only because Vaimes is scum and therefore Iso isn't."
So suddenly I'm town but only because Vaimes isn't? That's a bit of an extreme change in basis of stance, considering in his previous post he verbatim said he liked me and expressed no qualms with my actions to that point. But then suddenly, I express my suspicion of Wheat and "oh I guess Iso is only town because Vaimes isn't". Seems legit, and not at all like an OMGUS fabrication. /s
But then...Wheat doubles down on Vaimes, after a post of Vaimes's that I thought was quite reasonable to the point where I was willing to back off of him. (Protip, btw, Vaimes: Scum don't usually Unvote people that OMGUS Vote them like the exchange between you and myself here! They tunnel harder, 99% of the time.) So where did all of that "well maybe Iso's scum" go? If townWheat were this certain about his read on Vaimes, there's no way he'd set down the foundation for voting me as soon as the tides changed.
(I still want Vaimes to explain how Wheat isn't scum for the same reason he thinks I am, though, since the entire basis on which he believed such was proven to be garbage!)
Wheat then questions "hay Iso y r u townreading Vaimes??? lol" (also clearly a direct quote)
I then explain my reasoning for thinking such, after Vaimes initially voted me, tom voted me, and Huntz expresses confusion as to my Vaimes read.
Then Wheat votes me, claiming "you're not this bad at Mafia" when I'm literally the only person who always has his finger on the pulse of a game thread. I've explained my understanding of game flow and momentum to him before, and to pretend he doesn't understand it now is completely disingenuous, opportunistic, and scum-motivated.
I did a Ctrl+F for all instances of "obvious" in this post before posting it, just for you, Vaimes.
-
Hi, D_V! Please name a single game in recent history where I've been town and haven't been as aggressive as a rabid porcupine with a laser cannon attachment once somebody has received a scumread from me. I mean, absolutely nothing you said about me and the events that have transpired in this game thus far have been even remotely close to based in reality, but I felt I could generate the best imagery by pointing out this one, in particular.
Somewhat relatedly, I don't understand. Do you think Wheat's the Cultist or do you think I'm the Cultist?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
So, yeah. tl;dr: Wheat makes ***** up as he goes and everyone but Iso ignores it in favor of pushing on the person making the most noise (which, let's face it, is almost always guaranteed to be me in any given game).
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Rhox monks are dedicated to spiritual growth and learning, and most bear the sigils of many students. However, they do not gladly suffer fools or those who disagree with their carefully wrought dogma.
Votecount:
iso (2) - tom (73), wheat (117)
tom (1) - dv (35)
wheat (1) - iso (93)
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I don't believe scum Vaimes rolls over and dies when he's got pressure on him in this instance. Mainly because he'd be just tossing the game being the only scum. I also believe he's vanilla, for the same reason. He wouldn't just give up on being towns only power role.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I almost felt bad for not coming back last night. Then I saw the nothingness and came to my senses.
I'm not voting Iso. He isn't the cult leader.
I'm also not voting Wheat. I don't think he is either.
Same goes for Vaimes.
That leaves Tom. Anak. DVD.
Tom's been posting and putting a lot of effort into his self inflicted post restriction. The PR is not exactly alignment indicative for Tom. The fact that he's taking time to make the flavor quotes actually relevant to the questions and topics does however. He could simply post whatever random jank he wanted and get away with it otherwise. He's looking townie to me.
So what you are saying is that because he is putting a lot of effort into a SELF inflicted PR, he is town? As scum, he wouldn't be putting this much effort into something he gave himself? If it was a PR that he was forced to have your point would hold water, but not one that was self assigned.
There are reasons to town read Tom I think. That doesn't make sense to me however.
@DV to answer your question, maybe? In a game with one scum, there is nothing to gain by running that gambit that Vaimes did. I don't think it's as much to prove trust but more to try and induce a bad hammer from the cultist. Maybe I am projecting my thoughts onto Vaimes but I would never consider that as scum and would as town.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
But joking aside, I just don't agree with you. I didn't want to dissuade others by calling it out though. I also didn't feel like saying why, but I could certainly do so if you need me to.
@anak
Its not JUST effort. It's the relevance. I believe Tom would absolutely fluff post the thread until death if he were playing this way as scum. The fact that the flavor quotes actually make sense is a town point +1 in his favor.
Where are you falling in the wheat vs. Iso debate?
But joking aside, I just don't agree with you. I didn't want to dissuade others by calling it out though. I also didn't feel like saying why, but I could certainly do so if you need me to.
@anak
Its not JUST effort. It's the relevance. I believe Tom would absolutely fluff post the thread until death if he were playing this way as scum. The fact that the flavor quotes actually make sense is a town point +1 in his favor.
Where are you falling in the wheat vs. Iso debate?
Tom is literally giving us Fortune Cookie logic.
Why would you not want to weigh in on this debate. It's clearly the most important thing going on?
Tom plz Need that TM TM TM analysis I want to lynch this again.
No need to sully the waters if there isn't cause for it. I beg to differ though that it's the most important thing going on. I think you hiding from the thread is the most important thing (not) going on. Notice how quickly you came running once someone expressed a scumread towards you.
No need to sully the waters if there isn't cause for it. I beg to differ though that it's the most important thing going on. I think you hiding from the thread is the most important thing (not) going on. Notice how quickly you came running once someone expressed a scumread towards you.
You were absent from the thread for a time, but you replied as soon as someone mentioned you. That would make you appear as though you were actively lurking.
Watching the thread and not saying anything.
So, now that I got you here. Who do you think is the Cult leader?
@Hunt if he did that then we would have him dead immediately. So he would never do that as scum.
@Iso If wheat is as paranoid about you as you say, then wouldn't him opportunistically voting you be right in his town game. As scum he would have no reason to be paranoid of you and therefore wouldn't have hopped like that
I don't understand anything about your read on Vaimes.
Who do you think is scum then? You are down to Anak and DV.
1. I'm not asking you to make one up. I'm asking you to give me one that's based in factual reality, since the original premise of your push has been proven to be fallacious.
2. I think you're the Deprogrammer.
It's more that Wheat and I desperately want to be able to townread each other and when one of us tries to pocket the other, it's usually because the pocketer is scum. S.O.P. for townWheat is "oh wait Iso's first post is totally scummy, better vote him and never try advancing the state of the game beyond that", or along those lines. So, the fact that Wheat not only didn't even scrutinize me initially, but also that he jumped on Vaimes with me naturally has me ing him.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
That's an awful reason to townread me. And you should know that.
I feel like you're waving an "I'm scum but your reasons suck" flag at me. My read is fallicious because you weren't joking about pushing on Wheat, as I thought you were? Who's to say you were joking but switched gears to get me to change my read of you?
Vote in spirit: Iso
Why wouldn't Vaimes have claimed it by now instead of self-voting? I'm trying to wrap my head around how you could possibly think this.
I'll say it - Iso was never really joking about pushing on me. If it's any sort of joke it's the sort of joke that goes "ha ha we'll have clinton or trump in the white house next year, ha ha :("
I mean you can read literally any game Wheat and I have participated in together within the past 3 years and see this trend, plus Wheat, himself, has confirmed this. I'm not sure what you think I have to gain from creating what would be an extremely easily disprovable lie in this scenario.
There are a multitude of reasons Vaimes would have taken the course of action he did as the Deprogrammer and it's absolutely silly (read as: scummy) that you're pretending you can't fathom any of them.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm more inclined to think you're fishing.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
That sounds like a terrible idea.
That's even more terrible.
Unvote, Vote: Iso
You are not this bad at mafia.
It feels more like fishing to me as well, but it's strange to me because it's not like he would just come out and say, "oh yes, that's what I am."
Tom is hard to read because of the flavor text, slight town on him because of consistent mindset and votes. DV is null still, Hunt I actually think k is town because of how emotionally charged he got. I would expect him to remain calm more as scum. Vaimes I see as town from that vote gambit, at this point it makes more sense for that vote gambit to come from town. Wheat I have agreed with on things, not yet sure if that's a good thing though, null. Iso is my top candidate for scum, he comes across as more of wanting to look like he is solving the game as opposed to actually trying to solve it. On top of that, I dislike the fishing there about roles.
@Hunt seconding the what are your scumread question.
@Tom What are your current thoughts on everyone?
@Mod Vote count please?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
anak - On Naya, ambition and treachery are scarce, hunted nearly to extinction by the awe owed to terrestrial gods.
huntz - For the necromancer barons, killing and recruitment are one and the same.
DV - It's simple, really. If they can't find us, they can't kill us.
wheat - Momentum is a great ally.
iso - When you've got the temperament of a dragon, every argument is one you'll win.
Saying things that don't check out? Check.
Saying Bro "Trust me"? Check.
Saying things that don't benefit the town? Check.
"Stopping" the Vaimes gambit? Check.
BTW, I think Iso unvoted because he knew that there was no cultist that was going to hammer since he knew the cultist was on the wagon.
Basically voting Iso.
Yo huntz, what about Vaimes posts make you think he was town?
Why are you town reading Tom?
No really why?
@ Tom PLZ my soul. Stahp.
@ Wheat, Sup. How is being cult master swag?
@ Anak, Why is that vote gambit town? Was anyone really going to be voting that here?
Isn't that the gambit itself to "Prove" Trust?
@ Vaimes, What you doing bra?
Pretend I'm not here for a day or so.
Please tell me you all huddled together pre-game in a PM or something and said, "You know what would be funny? Let's troll Iso for the first few days of the game and then actually play it once the joke is over."
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
If I act indignant, then everyone will must see how town I am.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I mean you are literally on another team from everyone else.
no u
Sure!
...
But it'll have to wait until I'm home from work. (So like...2.25 hours.)
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Okay, so, let's start from the beginning.
Wheat and I have been playing Mafia together almost as long as I've been playing Mafia. We're also good friends OoG.
Wheat and I have had hours-long discussions on Mafia Theory and reading each other in Mafia games, to the point where Wheat created a flowchart to help him determine my alignment. (He eventually scrapped the flowchart, IIRC, due to a game I'm about to mention.)
We always want the other to be town when we are town, but even when we're both town, we always find some reason to scumread the other. (There was one game - Battle Factory Mafia - where I was the Cop and Wheat was the Vig and I falsecrumbed Bulletproof so he wouldn't shoot me. Then he shot me.)
Wheat's also extremely paranoid of me ever getting one over on him in a Mafia game. I believe this trend started with CCMVI, but it can be seen as recently as Ace Attorney Mafia. Ergo, Wheat's natural paranoia tends to overtake his rational mind when it comes to playing with me.
I have a trust tell. When I claim VT, I am VT. However, I make it a point never to claim my role in games where the setup is openly known to house a large number of Vanillas, such as this game, as that dramatically reduces the fairness of the game in question. Wheat is not only aware of my trust tell, he is aware of my self-imposed restriction on games with setups akin to this one.
So, take a look at all of this in the context of this game.
Wheat started on Vaimes in a similar manner that I did, after I opened the floodgates on Vaimes. This was opportunistic.
Then, as soon as I expressed my change of read on Vaimes and started voting Wheat, the Iso wagon gained traction, and Wheat immediately hopped on.
This is disingenuous, and even more opportunistic than his previous actions. Wheat can't even keep track of his read on me! In post #56, Wheat says, "Feeling good about Tom and Iso."
The basis of this read, I assume, is the fact that I was pushing on Vaimes at the time, considering in the same post he called Vaimes scum and commended my pushing of him.
Then I expressed my scum read of Wheat, and Wheat's very next post says, "still pretty sure tom is town. Can't remember if I said that already.
I see exactly where he's coming from and he's wrong but only because Vaimes is scum and therefore Iso isn't."
So suddenly I'm town but only because Vaimes isn't? That's a bit of an extreme change in basis of stance, considering in his previous post he verbatim said he liked me and expressed no qualms with my actions to that point. But then suddenly, I express my suspicion of Wheat and "oh I guess Iso is only town because Vaimes isn't". Seems legit, and not at all like an OMGUS fabrication. /s
But then...Wheat doubles down on Vaimes, after a post of Vaimes's that I thought was quite reasonable to the point where I was willing to back off of him. (Protip, btw, Vaimes: Scum don't usually Unvote people that OMGUS Vote them like the exchange between you and myself here! They tunnel harder, 99% of the time.) So where did all of that "well maybe Iso's scum" go? If townWheat were this certain about his read on Vaimes, there's no way he'd set down the foundation for voting me as soon as the tides changed.
(I still want Vaimes to explain how Wheat isn't scum for the same reason he thinks I am, though, since the entire basis on which he believed such was proven to be garbage!)
Wheat then questions "hay Iso y r u townreading Vaimes??? lol" (also clearly a direct quote)
I then explain my reasoning for thinking such, after Vaimes initially voted me, tom voted me, and Huntz expresses confusion as to my Vaimes read.
Then Wheat votes me, claiming "you're not this bad at Mafia" when I'm literally the only person who always has his finger on the pulse of a game thread. I've explained my understanding of game flow and momentum to him before, and to pretend he doesn't understand it now is completely disingenuous, opportunistic, and scum-motivated.
I did a Ctrl+F for all instances of "obvious" in this post before posting it, just for you, Vaimes.
-
Hi, D_V! Please name a single game in recent history where I've been town and haven't been as aggressive as a rabid porcupine with a laser cannon attachment once somebody has received a scumread from me. I mean, absolutely nothing you said about me and the events that have transpired in this game thus far have been even remotely close to based in reality, but I felt I could generate the best imagery by pointing out this one, in particular.
Somewhat relatedly, I don't understand. Do you think Wheat's the Cultist or do you think I'm the Cultist?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Votecount:
iso (2) - tom (73), wheat (117)
tom (1) - dv (35)
wheat (1) - iso (93)
"Words are a waste of time. Destruction is a language everyone understands."
—Sarkhan Vol
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
More later. Vote to come.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
—Nacatl scratchforms
I almost felt bad for not coming back last night. Then I saw the nothingness and came to my senses.
I'm not voting Iso. He isn't the cult leader.
I'm also not voting Wheat. I don't think he is either.
Same goes for Vaimes.
That leaves Tom. Anak. DVD.
Tom's been posting and putting a lot of effort into his self inflicted post restriction. The PR is not exactly alignment indicative for Tom. The fact that he's taking time to make the flavor quotes actually relevant to the questions and topics does however. He could simply post whatever random jank he wanted and get away with it otherwise. He's looking townie to me.
Anak. D.V.
Vote DV
There are reasons to town read Tom I think. That doesn't make sense to me however.
@DV to answer your question, maybe? In a game with one scum, there is nothing to gain by running that gambit that Vaimes did. I don't think it's as much to prove trust but more to try and induce a bad hammer from the cultist. Maybe I am projecting my thoughts onto Vaimes but I would never consider that as scum and would as town.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
But joking aside, I just don't agree with you. I didn't want to dissuade others by calling it out though. I also didn't feel like saying why, but I could certainly do so if you need me to.
@anak
Its not JUST effort. It's the relevance. I believe Tom would absolutely fluff post the thread until death if he were playing this way as scum. The fact that the flavor quotes actually make sense is a town point +1 in his favor.
Where are you falling in the wheat vs. Iso debate?
Vote count please
Tom is literally giving us Fortune Cookie logic.
Why would you not want to weigh in on this debate. It's clearly the most important thing going on?
Tom plz Need that TM TM TM analysis I want to lynch this again.
In what way am I hiding?
K, NVM Tom that's a Town I don't need you.
Watching the thread and not saying anything.
So, now that I got you here. Who do you think is the Cult leader?
like when the rest of the game and/or mod show up.
@Iso If wheat is as paranoid about you as you say, then wouldn't him opportunistically voting you be right in his town game. As scum he would have no reason to be paranoid of you and therefore wouldn't have hopped like that