Well I think shin will need to be lynched at some point this game since he dodged it twice now. The question is, do we do it now or try to get more info from another angle first. The risk we run is that we out a clearly competent town power role.
Well I think shin will need to be lynched at some point this game since he dodged it twice now. The question is, do we do it now or try to get more info from another angle first. The risk we run is that we out a clearly competent town power role.
Well I think shin will need to be lynched at some point this game since he dodged it twice now. The question is, do we do it now or try to get more info from another angle first. The risk we run is that we out a clearly competent town power role.
How do you suggest we get more info?
Also, I'd say sooner than later. I'm seriously considering an AG/Shinichi/?? team. I'll search for it later but there was a post where Shinichi said that AG might have been the best lynch for today (a post made day 2). I think that could have been a case of reverse bussing, since it seemed like Shinichi was going down at the time.
@Shinichi can you post your crier message today? Just want to test something.
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When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you.
Gah. I'm annoyed Wheat flipped town, I thought I was going somewhere with this game but now I'm more confused than anything so I will do my best to look at other people toDay. This includes Proph, Terry and Grapefruit above everyone else. That, or I'll just go with the flow.
I don't see why scum!Wheat doesn't move to the Shinichi wagon when it is readily available for him
Explain to me why Wheat would switch to Shinichi (and probably cause a lynch) when he has been townreading him for a while and has no reason to give up on his scumreads on Vaimes and AG. That sounds like a horrible move to make as scum. I feel like the votes on Wheat were fair, including mine, and if the quote above is one of the reasons you're townreading him then I'd say it's a faulty one.
To be completely honest, I'm actually more confident in a Shinichi lynch than a WG lynch. Proph's defense of WG is really suspicious, but I don't think this is his scum game. He's also one to buss, and I have never seen scum (from what I remember) defend a lynch of a partner so surely. On the other hand, now that I've moved past reading Shinichi based off of meta, his reads are not solid at all. Yes, he has memory issues, but the only reason they're so prevalent now is because he's not reading anybody strongly, which at this point, is really unlikely for town.
Ok. So like.
You think Shinichi is more likely scum than Wheat. Then you townread Proph under the basis that he wouldn't defend a teammate (in this case, Wheat) so hard. It's weird how you didn't consider the possibility of Proph being mafia defending Wheat being townie. Especially since you put Shinich above Wheat on your scumlist and Proph (who you agree is one to buss) is pushing a lynch on Shinichi.
I feel like EL is tunneling Wheat as hard as he's accusing Wheat of tunneling onto Vaimes. I also feel like if we Lynch WG and he flips town, EL is just going to be like "Oh Well" and start tunneling on someone else. I'm just getting some bad vibes from this situation. I need to step back and read some things for my self.
Do you feel like EL's reasons to vote Wheat are on the same level as Wheat's reasons to go against Vaimes?
@crossbell Question why are you afraid of a hammer? Am i not scum? I thought you were super sure of my alignment if you are then so that conviction and keep your vote on me.
I unvoted to give us more time to discuss. I still think you are somewhat likely scum, I'm just trying to give you a chance if you ARE in fact town.
Quote from Quickhoodies »
In case I can't catch up by the lynch (I should be catching up tomorrow (as I've repeatedly said time and time again... :/)), I'm not voting Shinichi but I'm voting Wheat. Pretty sure my vote's on him at the moment so I'm not moving it. If my opinion changes tomorrow, we'll see if I'll help out on the Shinichi lynch. Not even sure who has the most votes at the moment. Please don't push for a modkill on Shinichi, I don't really care if that would benefit us or not. I guess Cantrip has the final word but just don't push for it.
So wait. You think Wheat is scum, but you're also willing to lend your vote to a Shinichi lynch?
Please explain, especially when your last posts were:
Quote from Quick »
Tomorrow I catch up.
Bad vibes from Grapefruit.
Pretty sure Wheat is scum.
I feel like his play is more like "people scumread me for Reason X, but I'm gonna keep playing it out as if Reason X is a perfectly reasonable townie behavior coming from me.
And your last stance on Shinichi was:
Quote from Quick »
Guys, I really have a good feeling about Shinichi. My dilemma is that this good feeling could come from the fact that I am naturally much more inclined to trust him than other players here because of some kind of familiarity bias (?). Quite literally, each time someone accused Shinichi of doing something scummy, it was for things which I've seen him do as town as well, so the accusations don't strike me as hard as they could. I also think he's having good intentions for the most part, so I guess that's one thing I agree with Wheat on.
This is looking somewhat opportunistic, if you ask me.
Uh. How does my last stance on Shinichi even matter. I said myself that EL made me more willing to vote Shinichi. And yeah, I thought Wheat was scum and I had him on my list from D1, but the scumteam is not limited to one person. At the moment of writing the post you're quoting, it looked like a Shinichi lynch was going on, so I expressed my willingness to help out with it if needed. Seemed kind of necessary for me to speak up about what I think of the two of them. And in the end, my vote stayed on Wheat and day ended before I knew it.
And yeah, my read on the kpaca slot is now more on the negative-neutral than on the positive-neutral side, because of Proph's play.
Obviously not convinced at all about Proph though (relative to what I think of Wheat and Shinichi), because I'm still conflicted concerning what I talked about in my previous post: "With all the defense I've seen these three players do towards each other, I don't feel like Proph would just do what she's doing right now. On one hand this seems like the exact type of situation I know she would bus in, on the other hand she mentioned in-thread that she very much likes to bus as scum (or something like that) and it's the fact that she mentioned it which bugs me."
What?
1. How does my play this phase trend your read on my slot towards the negative-neutral rather than the positive-neutral vibe? If kpaca was still here and shiptoasting would you still have a more positive view of him?
2. Why are you making post-flip reads when not a single member of the scumteam has flipped yet?
3. Why does me mentioning that I like to bus more as scum more bug you? I am just telling you guys how I play when I roll scum (ie, I am a terrible scum player, so I bus to cover that fact up).
1. I'm not sure I would tolerate kpaca's play for a long time, but I suppose it all depends on how others would have treated him after having escaped a lynch and all. It might be a stretch to say this, but your content has made me feel worse than kpaca's. You're asking people typical run-of-the-mill questions a countless amount of times. You're defending Wheat by relying on his more recent posts where he's been frustrated (posts which are quite neutral if you ask me) while me and EL were scumreading him for reasons that date from much older. You're onto Shinichi for reasons you've repeated for like 5 posts straight. These reasons include the fact that Shinichi doesn't explain his reads enough, which is pretty much the reason we were voting Wheat. I definitely could see you as a scum trying to "get one townie lynched and save the other for good measure." You could for sure still be town taking a side by giving his stance on the Shin/Wheat matter, but I'm just more wary of you than I was with kpaca. Plus people (including Grapefruit) pretty much gave you peace once you came in replacing kpaca.
2. Why not? Look at this EL guy, hehe.
3. It's pretty simple. You're aware of how you play as scum, you're aware that people are aware of how you play as scum. So your best bet is to acknowledge it in-thread and not bus your buddies. This means if Shinichi is scum, my suspicions on you fall short because you would be bussing him.fsome
In the event where Shinichi flips scum then I think Wheat is incredibly likely to be even more town. I would definitely destroy AtheistGod and QH then for pushing the counterwagon. Plus shadow would essentially be lock town.
Ehhh. I started the Wheat lynch, didn't I? Did I counter a wagon? I don't remember that o.o
/corroborate the above.
I think we really need Shin's flip to actually move forward the gamestate. Also, might be a good idea for a protective role to target me tonight, since I should be basically lock clear with a scum!shin flip.
Ok, this post makes me feel very good about shadow. If Shin is scum, then I'm not sure why shadow would discuss him being scum with Grape during N1. If Shin is town, then in this post above shadow is pushing for his lynch all the while being convinced that a scum!shin flip would townlock him. This looks like a very non-instinctive post to make if shadow is a mafia who knows that Shinichi is town. Like, he would know Shinichi would flip town, but still post something as blunt as this?
Role/vanilla cops are almost always scum aligned because it says nothing about the alignment of the player. Which mafia already knows. When they are town they are better served as being kept quiet to confirm people's claims as being truthful or not. That's why the particular design of this cop has me scratching my head. As for the latter part more than half the game has not claimed at all at this stage.
Guys, we're not talking about a vanilla cop here, we're talking about someone who gives a vanilla cop shot. This difference is important because it doesn't make AG any more scummy mechanically because he doesn't know if he's giving his shots to a townie or a mafia. If anything, the fact that mafia know the alignments and townies don't make me even more confident that AG is a townie himself, because his role adds a neat randomness to the game.
I believe that Shinichi is scum. I believe this from his behavior, his role conflicting with mine is the icing
I'm really not comfortable with you pushing the whole "conflicting roles must be different factions" angle, as opposed to other people doing it on your behalf.
I think the opposite, I'm actually more comfortable with him having a stance on it than others having one. It kind of reminds me of when Terry townlocked himself and others townlocked him afterwards: it felt more natural coming from Terry. Suppose shadow is scum and many players start to agree with the idea that 'one of Shin and shadow is mafia,' he's gonna have to negate that idea somehow otherwise he's cooked once Shinichi flips (I guess if both are scum then the story is different). Instead I see him embracing the idea.
Because if Shinichi flips Town toDay then your own argument paints you as Mafia, and that makes for a very awkward toMorrow.
This just looks like all the more reason that a townie Shin makes for a townie shadow.
-----
Vaimes and AG are town to me, as I explained in #1126, and I doubt this will ever change, especially if we're starting to catch scum outside of Vaimes and AG.
Additional notes:
Prophylaxis: the way kpaca was being slaughtered on D1 is the biggest town-tell. I don't like how he was defending Wheat.
Grapefruit: apparently everyone is townreading this guy and I've yet to see actual reasoning for it. Am I blind?
EternalLurker: the way his reads and opinions often mirror mine is the biggest town-tell. This could also be some massive pocketing but considering he can't read my mind, ya know. Somehow because of his presence the Wheat train became his responsibility instead of mine and my reasons for voting Wheat were almost robbed for a lack of a better word. There's also the fact he wanted to lynch someone who townread him (#1223), this is town-ish: if there was any time where EL would switch to Shin as scum, it would have been after this, but he didn't really budge.
RE1031: the reaction to Terry's trap or whatever is the biggest town-tell. And for #1234.
Terry: gonna quote myself here:
"I also have this super underground feeling that Terry knows something about Wheat and Shinichi's alignments. Mainly due to his conspiracy thing against EL, foreshadowing a townie flip from Shin/Wheat to make sure EL gets negative points for pushing such lynches. But given that I think Shinichi and Wheat are more likely scum (maybe not together, though! but in all likelihood, yeah) than Terry at this point, this is only an 'aside' line of thinking that could or not become useful."
Seems like this thinking might not have been entirely stupid.
Done with Day 2. Gonna tackle Day 3 tomorrow and have some ReAl TiMe InTeRaCtIoNs with you all because Proph seems to want that from what I just saw. I'll be on a day off, so yay.
Ok. So like.
You think Shinichi is more likely scum than Wheat. Then you townread Proph under the basis that he wouldn't defend a teammate (in this case, Wheat) so hard. It's weird how you didn't consider the possibility of Proph being mafia defending Wheat being townie. Especially since you put Shinich above Wheat on your scumlist and Proph (who you agree is one to buss) is pushing a lynch on Shinichi.
Actually, I have, but I just didn't say anything about it... I was also wary that if both Shinichi and WG were scum, then Proph had nothing to lose by bussing Shinichi (but that's no longer a possibility).
And to be completely honest, had WG flipped scum, Proph probably would have jumped a lot higher on my town reads list because of that defense. Only under very few circumstances do I see scum defending a buddy like that.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you.
Not quoting because that would be a mess but replying to QH.
Re me giving Proph a pass. Check out this reads list where I include in him in a group of 4 and say I think there are 2 scum in it. It's not that I'm against lynching him, it's that I think Shin and AG are solid to very good bets to be scum.
Re AG's role: I think it giving out shots makes it equal or greater likelihood that it's a scum role. Doesn't lessen the scumminess at all. This particular design takes away the main utility it would provide town. And saying it's town for injecting randomness is head scratching to me.
This is probably a bit OMGUS but the fact that you keep shading me while not providing any evidence is piquing my interest. I kind of think I'm so widely town read that I'm spewed town at this stage. I don't think RE is even scum reading me anymore.
I find it mildly hilarious that you mention you town read EL for mind melds, but your only two quotes of his you think are wrong. I get that it's because you are only quoting things that needed to be sorted and questioned, but it's still funny to me.
The fact that you spent a lot of time re-litigating why Wheat is scummy is a huge red flag for me. Feels like trying to avoid blame. If EL hadn't done a bit of that as well I'd vote you right now for it.
I really like your question to RE.
Your reply to proph's quotes in spoilers on the other hand I do not. Of course your last stance on Shin matters when your opinion suddenly shifts. It's the same thing you were pointing out at the top of your post as a scum tell in Wheat (who flipped town). You suddenly flipped from defending Shin to being willing to vote him, based on the reasoning of someone who much preferred lynching Wheat... I just don't get it.
Well I think shin will need to be lynched at some point this game since he dodged it twice now. The question is, do we do it now or try to get more info from another angle first. The risk we run is that we out a clearly competent town power role.
Well I think shin will need to be lynched at some point this game since he dodged it twice now. The question is, do we do it now or try to get more info from another angle first. The risk we run is that we out a clearly competent town power role.
How do you suggest we get more info?
Also, I'd say sooner than later. I'm seriously considering an AG/Shinichi/?? team. I'll search for it later but there was a post where Shinichi said that AG might have been the best lynch for today (a post made day 2). I think that could have been a case of reverse bussing, since it seemed like Shinichi was going down at the time.
@Shinichi can you post your crier message today? Just want to test something.
Here's a good place to start. Let's talk about why there wasn't a kill last night. Who was the target? We figure that out we have lock town. Was someone blocked? We figure that out we have lock scum. I'm really curious who certain players think would have been the target. What do you think RE?
Correction: I also saw interaction tells with Proph, but my worries about him are also starting to fade.
So who are you interested in lynching? If you are more in the camp that AG's role is null to town.
Same general question to you Shadow.
I missed this earlier, but I'm interested in lynching Shinichi as soon as possible. He's both most likely to flip scum, and in the unlikely event that he's town, the earlier we know that, the better for actually figuring out this game, because despite a kill not happening, we don't have a lot of days left if we get it wrong.
Speaking of, the most probable worlds are one with a doctor and one with a roleblocker (I doubt both), and if we have a doctor STAY SILENT! But if we have a role blocker, I think the 1 for 1 would absolutely be worth it at this point for claiming. There is also the less probable worlds where we have someone who is bullet proof, which I think they should probably stay silent at this point for the WIFOM, or even the chance that "Death guard" is literally a bodyguard that activates upon death, which would be really cool.
Here's a good place to start. Let's talk about why there wasn't a kill last night. Who was the target? We figure that out we have lock town. Was someone blocked? We figure that out we have lock scum. I'm really curious who certain players think would have been the target. What do you think RE?
Part of the reason why I'm asking Shinichi to post his crier message. It's a really long shot since I doubt roleblocks carry on during the day, but I feel Shinichi could have been roleblocked last night.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you.
Here's a good place to start. Let's talk about why there wasn't a kill last night. Who was the target? We figure that out we have lock town. Was someone blocked? We figure that out we have lock scum. I'm really curious who certain players think would have been the target. What do you think RE?
Part of the reason why I'm asking Shinichi to post his crier message. It's a really long shot since I doubt roleblocks carry on during the day, but I feel Shinichi could have been roleblocked last night.
If you RoleBlocked Shinichi, I feel like you should just claim it.
@Cantrip: are there deleted posts that weren't noticed? The post number here doesn't match up with the total post number when looking at the thread list
@Quickhoodies: I agree that shadow arguing the mechanical read on Shinichi is potentially a Town-tell, but he also hedged it afterwards, so it's kinda NAI to me in the end. I wasn't saying that I was "uncomfortable" with it as in I was scum-reading him for it; rather, I was uncomfortable with it because if he's Town then he's just risking a double-mislynch by pushing that angle.
Grapefruit: apparently everyone is townreading this guy and I've yet to see actual reasoning for it. Am I blind?
No, if you're reading Day 2 I'll agree that he was mostly somewhat null, but my read comes all the way from Day One. Overall, Grapefruit's reads on other players have seemed to change in very organic manners, which is my personal reason for Town-reading him: post #125 is a very Townie change of opinion in response to RE, for example.
the chance that "Death guard" is literally a bodyguard that activates upon death, which would be really cool
My belief as the second-most-likely option, yeah, but I'd specify "on Night-kill" rather than "on death". Rhand specifically stated that he'd be a "horrible deadline lynch"; I kinda think his soft-claim might've been an attempt to get Night-killed, which is what made me think that he used a 1-shot post-death protection last night.
If you RoleBlocked Shinichi, I feel like you should just claim it.
Well, had I roleblocked Shinichi, I probably would have voted him already this phase. And the fact you're the only one who has done so kind of ruins my theory because the real roleblocker (if exists) has not done so yet. And you're neighborizer, so pretty sure you're not also roleblocker.
Also, random thought, but so far, all the actives revealed are day shots, no? Shinichi's crier, AG gives out shots during the day, and shadow chooses who to neighborize during the day. Weird.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you.
Proph, when you're scum and someone's townreading you, you don't try to shove them deeper into your pocket, do you?
Asking for a friend.
Dude, this is for MY benefit. I feel like you're sort of trending off/being really disengaged as the game goes on and I've heard that that's what you do as scum. I want to real time interact with you because even though I have historically been bad at reading you I feel like I should be able to solidify my read on you once I do that.
Quote from Voxxicus »
Proph and Vaimes are my all-underrated players in this series because a lot of what makes them good as town isn't something that shows up in a one game sample. They work well with almost any town in any game and have decent win rates through it.
Just putting this here because I feel like you'd like to hear it and because I treasure this comment from Voxx.
I want to come back to this. Vaimes really bugged me at EoD yesterday. This post in particular:
I could be as lurky as I want, but even then I'd still step in to ensure we didn't No Lynch. So chastising me for my activity there is a bit silly.
WG is 99% not a PR, so I feel better about voting him. On the other hand, Shinichi is just...going to get lynched eventually, pretty much no matter what. He is either unwilling or incapable of clearing himself via play.
1. I hate that I had to pry activity out of him
2. I hated his response
3. He didn't step in to ensure a no Lynch
4. His comments on WG in this post don't sit right either. He admits that Shin will need to be lynched anyway, but still wants to Lynch WG. When Shin was L-1, he didn't hammer. He uses role assumptions to push WG not alignment. This is important because his #1 focus is on roles (it doesn't matter if he's trying to justify it by him not thinking WG is a PR), not what his alignment is.
5. The Vaimes of late Day 2 was not the Vaimes Proph just refereed to in his quote from Voxx.
So RE and QH still have not reported in. I don't think we can go this whole game with out lynching shin, but I'm willing to try to Lynch someone else first. Shin has dodged a Lynch twice now.
Almost Positive Ill have dodge a third at this point
@Prox Why Lie in the first place?
@shadow Uhm are you blind because even though the make focus was me and WG there was alot of apathy. Also why are you still so focused on me? Why not vote prop who obviously lied?
Why was it necessary for @shadow to reveal that Proph was vanilla?
I can't think of any reason.
This on the otherhand seem's like it hurt town more than helped them. Like unless shadow was absolutely sure proph was scum then why would it ever be necessary to reveal the information.
Well I think shin will need to be lynched at some point this game since he dodged it twice now. The question is, do we do it now or try to get more info from another angle first. The risk we run is that we out a clearly competent town power role.
Well I think shin will need to be lynched at some point this game since he dodged it twice now. The question is, do we do it now or try to get more info from another angle first. The risk we run is that we out a clearly competent town power role.
How do you suggest we get more info?
Also, I'd say sooner than later. I'm seriously considering an AG/Shinichi/?? team. I'll search for it later but there was a post where Shinichi said that AG might have been the best lynch for today (a post made day 2). I think that could have been a case of reverse bussing, since it seemed like Shinichi was going down at the time.
@Shinichi can you post your crier message today? Just want to test something.
Here's a good place to start. Let's talk about why there wasn't a kill last night. Who was the target? We figure that out we have lock town. Was someone blocked? We figure that out we have lock scum. I'm really curious who certain players think would have been the target. What do you think RE?
Kill was stopped, someone was saved, or Mafia choose not to kill which i think would be just stupid. But why do we need to discuss this anyways?
Correction: I also saw interaction tells with Proph, but my worries about him are also starting to fade.
So who are you interested in lynching? If you are more in the camp that AG's role is null to town.
Same general question to you Shadow.
I missed this earlier, but I'm interested in lynching Shinichi as soon as possible. He's both most likely to flip scum, and in the unlikely event that he's town, the earlier we know that, the better for actually figuring out this game, because despite a kill not happening, we don't have a lot of days left if we get it wrong.
Speaking of, the most probable worlds are one with a doctor and one with a roleblocker (I doubt both), and if we have a doctor STAY SILENT! But if we have a role blocker, I think the 1 for 1 would absolutely be worth it at this point for claiming. There is also the less probable worlds where we have someone who is bullet proof, which I think they should probably stay silent at this point for the WIFOM, or even the chance that "Death guard" is literally a bodyguard that activates upon death, which would be really cool.
I don't understand why your so open to causing a mislynch, if even for a second you believe i could flip town then you should not be voting me lol.
I'm going to go dark for a bit while I do a deep re-read of this thread. I'm having major trouble seeing this as anything but another derp-clear attempt. And I think I may have actually accepted some of his others subconsciously. I need to stop doing that, and a full re-read may help.
Here's a good place to start. Let's talk about why there wasn't a kill last night. Who was the target? We figure that out we have lock town. Was someone blocked? We figure that out we have lock scum. I'm really curious who certain players think would have been the target. What do you think RE?
Part of the reason why I'm asking Shinichi to post his crier message. It's a really long shot since I doubt roleblocks carry on during the day, but I feel Shinichi could have been roleblocked last night.
If you RoleBlocked Shinichi, I feel like you should just claim it.
My ability is day use so I don't think a role block would stop it, that be said I didn't receive any message about being blocked. I just saw no more point to my ability since its already out in the open. Unless you think there is another reason.
If you RoleBlocked Shinichi, I feel like you should just claim it.
Well, had I roleblocked Shinichi, I probably would have voted him already this phase. And the fact you're the only one who has done so kind of ruins my theory because the real roleblocker (if exists) has not done so yet. And you're neighborizer, so pretty sure you're not also roleblocker.
Also, random thought, but so far, all the actives revealed are day shots, no? Shinichi's crier, AG gives out shots during the day, and shadow chooses who to neighborize during the day. Weird.
OH shadow is the neighorbizer idk why i had the idea it was cross >_<, Im assuming I got mixed up because I knew both had power roles and i confused who had what.
@re1031 Can't i already posted 5 messages, so now i can't use my ability. What did you want to test anyways?
So you can't announceanything if you've already posted five times that day?
Yep thats one of the negatives of my ability, not sure what purpose it serves though. This game has been going on for a while so i just gonna write role claims in my little notpad near me desk because its very hard to remember stuff, while also hosting my own game.
Evident? Well then. My first thought to Proph's post was something entirely different (Proph protected shadow from a NK) but I guess you're right afterall.
The benefit is that not revealing the information would be hiding information from Town. Why would you ever want that?
But it would be hiding information from the mafia too, no? I get what RE is saying. There isn't much to conclude from the fact that Proph is a vanilla role, so if shadow and Proph are both town, scum would have just gotten someone to remove from their "kill because PR" list.
It's still better for Town for the most part anyway, though, especially since I don't believe there's a second protective role. Rhand was almost certainly protective, given his role's name.
We don't have a roleblocker though so where did the kill go?
It wasn't a no-kill plan from scum either like you suggested lol. Four mafia in a 12 players game is a decent joke indeed.
Actually, upon learning of this kill-less Night, my second thought (after the 4-Mafia one) was that Rhand has a 1-shot post-death protective ability, but that's really drawing on my experiences with weird setups that are probably inapplicable here.
"Deathguard"
I like how what you're saying actually makes sense. Mmh. You know what, I think it's fair to say Rhand might have saved someone somehow?
So you are saying that AG is scum and Vaimes and Shadow are town?
No, I'm not remotely sold on shadow being Town. I'm just saying that "none of it makes sense if AG is scum" is going way too far. There are plenty of reasons for scum-AG to gift his ability to Townies.
I understand the Wheat flip might have changed your mind on everything and that you wanted to look at AG after the town Wheat reveal, but I thought you agreed with my reasoning yesterDay that AG is town. Pretty sure I've seen you disreguard the bolded as only a very trivial possibility.
Can you go into the case a bit more. I understand lack of agenda is usually an okay town tell, but given the lack of flips I'm having trouble pointing out anyone with an agenda except QH and EL.
What exactly is an agenda? A careful planning? It if makes you feel any better, I have no idea what I'm gonna do toDay.
This is probably a bit OMGUS but the fact that you keep shading me while not providing any evidence is piquing my interest. I kind of think I'm so widely town read that I'm spewed town at this stage. I don't think RE is even scum reading me anymore.
I'm not sure where I shaded you? It not like I think you're scum or anything, I'm just puzzled as to why you're so widely townread. Is 'spewed town' something like "the guy who everyone townreads for good measure, including the scum so they're not out of the loop"? If so I understand the concept, I just think it's weird to townread someone because everyone townreads him and I'm not gonna do it because I don't understand where these townreads are coming from.
The fact that you spent a lot of time re-litigating why Wheat is scummy is a huge red flag for me. Feels like trying to avoid blame. If EL hadn't done a bit of that as well I'd vote you right now for it.
Am I supposed to revisit the lynch and think "Yeah, Wheat wasn't scummy at all afterall! Darnit, what was I thinking..."? I mean sure, I'm bummed out that I was wrong, but that's about it. I don't really want blame for it so you're right in saying I want to avoid it, though if I deserve blame in the end that's not for me to judge.
No, if you're reading Day 2 I'll agree that he was mostly somewhat null, but my read comes all the way from Day One. Overall, Grapefruit's reads on other players have seemed to change in very organic manners, which is my personal reason for Town-reading him: post #125 is a very Townie change of opinion in response to RE, for example.
Ahh thank you. I didn't even expect a response to this, and I like your reasoning so I feel better now. About you, not necessarily about Grape.
OH shadow is the neighorbizer idk why i had the idea it was cross >_<, Im assuming I got mixed up because I knew both had power roles and i confused who had what.
vote: Shinichi
Okay...
Not being able to post a crier message after 5 posts is the weirdest mechanic I've ever heard of. Also just scrolling down the first page, that's not the case at all.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you.
Can you go into the case a bit more. I understand lack of agenda is usually an okay town tell, but given the lack of flips I'm having trouble pointing out anyone with an agenda except QH and EL.
What exactly is an agenda? A careful planning? It if makes you feel any better, I have no idea what I'm gonna do toDay.
By an agenda I just mean that you have been pushing for something you see rather than following other's reads. You've been doing that. Very few people this game have. I don't see that as a scum tell here. Just pointing out that town reading people for lack of an agenda is useless when no one except like you, me, and lurker are pushing anything coherent.
This is probably a bit OMGUS but the fact that you keep shading me while not providing any evidence is piquing my interest. I kind of think I'm so widely town read that I'm spewed town at this stage. I don't think RE is even scum reading me anymore.
I'm not sure where I shaded you? It not like I think you're scum or anything, I'm just puzzled as to why you're so widely townread. Is 'spewed town' something like "the guy who everyone townreads for good measure, including the scum so they're not out of the loop"? If so I understand the concept, I just think it's weird to townread someone because everyone townreads him and I'm not gonna do it because I don't understand where these townreads are coming from.
By shading I just mean questioning my towniness. You weren't asking people why they thought I was town till I called you out on it. You were actively saying I'm going to look into Grape without providing any reason to do so. The lack of interest in doing anything with it beyond just saying "Hey guys I'm not so sure about that grapefruit character" stood out to me. With everyone else you have these detailed posts going through and pulling a ton of quotes. With me there is none of that, but you keep putting me in your PoE.
As for spewed town it's an idea that someone is so widely town read so quickly that they are very likely town and mafia jumped on to try and earn town points for identifying the read. And then they get too widely town read to really walk it back. I kind of consider Terry that as well because of the way his entrance was the most widely acclaimed townie entrance in the history of mafia.
The fact that you spent a lot of time re-litigating why Wheat is scummy is a huge red flag for me. Feels like trying to avoid blame. If EL hadn't done a bit of that as well I'd vote you right now for it.
Am I supposed to revisit the lynch and think "Yeah, Wheat wasn't scummy at all afterall! Darnit, what was I thinking..."? I mean sure, I'm bummed out that I was wrong, but that's about it. I don't really want blame for it so you're right in saying I want to avoid it, though if I deserve blame in the end that's not for me to judge.
I agree with the settlement I just was pointing out that you started defending the lynch while under no pressure to do so. I've seen scum do that more than town, but EL did it too, and I really don't think you're scum together so I'm throwing it in the NAI pile.
OH shadow is the neighorbizer idk why i had the idea it was cross >_<, Im assuming I got mixed up because I knew both had power roles and i confused who had what.
Proph doesn't have a power role lmao.
I just don't even know what to do with today... Like I want to lynch Shin because I see no way around it, but I also just have a hard time seeing mafia being this repeatedly sloppy...
vote: Shinichi
Okay...
Not being able to post a crier message after 5 posts is the weirdest mechanic I've ever heard of. Also just scrolling down the first page, that's not the case at all.
Yeah, that is just a blatant lie. Dunno if it makes him scum, but clearly not true. Good catch. Vote: Shinichi
For the record, while I do think the "not being able to post after 5 messages" thing is just a convenient excuse, there's actually no way to disprove it as a "blatant lie". When Cantripmancer posts the Crier messages is not when Shinichi requests them; the mod may take some time to post the message.
For the record, while I do think the "not being able to post after 5 messages" thing is just a convenient excuse, there's actually no way to disprove it as a "blatant lie". When Cantripmancer posts the Crier messages is not when Shinichi requests them; the mod may take some time to post the message.
I've considered this. But like you say, what kind of rule is this.
Also, @QH, why do you say we don't have a roleblocker? How do you know?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you.
For the record, while I do think the "not being able to post after 5 messages" thing is just a convenient excuse, there's actually no way to disprove it as a "blatant lie". When Cantripmancer posts the Crier messages is not when Shinichi requests them; the mod may take some time to post the message.
Well that's why we need Shin to clarify because it's clearly untrue. The thing is the text of the first message suggests otherwise.
The arguing thus far has been muffled, perhaps thanks to the dampening effect of the fog, but suddenly a shrill voice echoes out from somewhere undiscernable:
So my first post is going to be announced (50)
It's slightly strange first message to send when you've posted many times already.
Err...that actually suggests exactly what I'm saying? That message implies Shinichi asked Cantripmancer to send the Crier message well before Shinichi had ever posted, and then he just got tired of waiting and started posting before Cantripmancer had a chance to send the message.
Err...that actually suggests exactly what I'm saying? That message implies Shinichi asked Cantripmancer to send the Crier message well before Shinichi had ever posted, and then he just got tired of waiting and started posting before Cantripmancer had a chance to send the message.
I was there when the game started. Shin didn't really wait at all. But I see your point. Still raises to the issue that Shin was at L-2 for a long time and never specified that part of his claim. Seems like a very strange thing to omit. And it's existence makes his claim in his second crier message that the role would be OP even more baffling.
Err...that actually suggests exactly what I'm saying? That message implies Shinichi asked Cantripmancer to send the Crier message well before Shinichi had ever posted, and then he just got tired of waiting and started posting before Cantripmancer had a chance to send the message.
I was there when the game started. Shin didn't really wait at all. But I see your point. Still raises to the issue that Shin was at L-2 for a long time and never specified that part of his claim. Seems like a very strange thing to omit. And it's existence makes his claim in his second crier message that the role would be OP even more baffling.
Also checking the time stamps that doesn't even make sense. Shin was the second post of the game and posted 6 times on the 10th. He then continued posting on the 11th which is when the message went up.
But still the more curious part I want answered is the lack of explaining this till now when he'd been in claim range (and explained his role publicly) previously.
I'll try to catch up tomorrow after my quiz.
How do you suggest we get more info?
Also, I'd say sooner than later. I'm seriously considering an AG/Shinichi/?? team. I'll search for it later but there was a post where Shinichi said that AG might have been the best lynch for today (a post made day 2). I think that could have been a case of reverse bussing, since it seemed like Shinichi was going down at the time.
@Shinichi can you post your crier message today? Just want to test something.
I feel you, I've had so many problems with the website lately. Terry too by his earlier post.
I'm going to try and case AG tomorrow and see if Shadow is right that he's been mostly null.
Explain to me why Wheat would switch to Shinichi (and probably cause a lynch) when he has been townreading him for a while and has no reason to give up on his scumreads on Vaimes and AG. That sounds like a horrible move to make as scum. I feel like the votes on Wheat were fair, including mine, and if the quote above is one of the reasons you're townreading him then I'd say it's a faulty one.
Ok. So like.
You think Shinichi is more likely scum than Wheat. Then you townread Proph under the basis that he wouldn't defend a teammate (in this case, Wheat) so hard. It's weird how you didn't consider the possibility of Proph being mafia defending Wheat being townie. Especially since you put Shinich above Wheat on your scumlist and Proph (who you agree is one to buss) is pushing a lynch on Shinichi.
Do you feel like EL's reasons to vote Wheat are on the same level as Wheat's reasons to go against Vaimes?
Why do all of your posts include some kind of "what if" question?
Wot.
I swear I've seen someone in the Mafia Society say you were a girl. In any case, I'm sorry.
1. I'm not sure I would tolerate kpaca's play for a long time, but I suppose it all depends on how others would have treated him after having escaped a lynch and all. It might be a stretch to say this, but your content has made me feel worse than kpaca's. You're asking people typical run-of-the-mill questions a countless amount of times. You're defending Wheat by relying on his more recent posts where he's been frustrated (posts which are quite neutral if you ask me) while me and EL were scumreading him for reasons that date from much older. You're onto Shinichi for reasons you've repeated for like 5 posts straight. These reasons include the fact that Shinichi doesn't explain his reads enough, which is pretty much the reason we were voting Wheat. I definitely could see you as a scum trying to "get one townie lynched and save the other for good measure." You could for sure still be town taking a side by giving his stance on the Shin/Wheat matter, but I'm just more wary of you than I was with kpaca. Plus people (including Grapefruit) pretty much gave you peace once you came in replacing kpaca.
2. Why not? Look at this EL guy, hehe.
3. It's pretty simple. You're aware of how you play as scum, you're aware that people are aware of how you play as scum. So your best bet is to acknowledge it in-thread and not bus your buddies. This means if Shinichi is scum, my suspicions on you fall short because you would be bussing him.fsome
Ehhh. I started the Wheat lynch, didn't I? Did I counter a wagon? I don't remember that o.o
Ok, this post makes me feel very good about shadow. If Shin is scum, then I'm not sure why shadow would discuss him being scum with Grape during N1. If Shin is town, then in this post above shadow is pushing for his lynch all the while being convinced that a scum!shin flip would townlock him. This looks like a very non-instinctive post to make if shadow is a mafia who knows that Shinichi is town. Like, he would know Shinichi would flip town, but still post something as blunt as this?
Do you still want this explained?
Guys, we're not talking about a vanilla cop here, we're talking about someone who gives a vanilla cop shot. This difference is important because it doesn't make AG any more scummy mechanically because he doesn't know if he's giving his shots to a townie or a mafia. If anything, the fact that mafia know the alignments and townies don't make me even more confident that AG is a townie himself, because his role adds a neat randomness to the game.
I think the opposite, I'm actually more comfortable with him having a stance on it than others having one. It kind of reminds me of when Terry townlocked himself and others townlocked him afterwards: it felt more natural coming from Terry. Suppose shadow is scum and many players start to agree with the idea that 'one of Shin and shadow is mafia,' he's gonna have to negate that idea somehow otherwise he's cooked once Shinichi flips (I guess if both are scum then the story is different). Instead I see him embracing the idea.
This just looks like all the more reason that a townie Shin makes for a townie shadow.
-----
Vaimes and AG are town to me, as I explained in #1126, and I doubt this will ever change, especially if we're starting to catch scum outside of Vaimes and AG.
Additional notes:
Prophylaxis: the way kpaca was being slaughtered on D1 is the biggest town-tell. I don't like how he was defending Wheat.
Grapefruit: apparently everyone is townreading this guy and I've yet to see actual reasoning for it. Am I blind?
EternalLurker: the way his reads and opinions often mirror mine is the biggest town-tell. This could also be some massive pocketing but considering he can't read my mind, ya know. Somehow because of his presence the Wheat train became his responsibility instead of mine and my reasons for voting Wheat were almost robbed for a lack of a better word. There's also the fact he wanted to lynch someone who townread him (#1223), this is town-ish: if there was any time where EL would switch to Shin as scum, it would have been after this, but he didn't really budge.
RE1031: the reaction to Terry's trap or whatever is the biggest town-tell. And for #1234.
Terry: gonna quote myself here:
"I also have this super underground feeling that Terry knows something about Wheat and Shinichi's alignments. Mainly due to his conspiracy thing against EL, foreshadowing a townie flip from Shin/Wheat to make sure EL gets negative points for pushing such lynches. But given that I think Shinichi and Wheat are more likely scum (maybe not together, though! but in all likelihood, yeah) than Terry at this point, this is only an 'aside' line of thinking that could or not become useful."
Seems like this thinking might not have been entirely stupid.
Done with Day 2. Gonna tackle Day 3 tomorrow and have some ReAl TiMe InTeRaCtIoNs with you all because Proph seems to want that from what I just saw. I'll be on a day off, so yay.
Actually, I have, but I just didn't say anything about it... I was also wary that if both Shinichi and WG were scum, then Proph had nothing to lose by bussing Shinichi (but that's no longer a possibility).
And to be completely honest, had WG flipped scum, Proph probably would have jumped a lot higher on my town reads list because of that defense. Only under very few circumstances do I see scum defending a buddy like that.
Re me giving Proph a pass. Check out this reads list where I include in him in a group of 4 and say I think there are 2 scum in it. It's not that I'm against lynching him, it's that I think Shin and AG are solid to very good bets to be scum.
Re AG's role: I think it giving out shots makes it equal or greater likelihood that it's a scum role. Doesn't lessen the scumminess at all. This particular design takes away the main utility it would provide town. And saying it's town for injecting randomness is head scratching to me.
This is probably a bit OMGUS but the fact that you keep shading me while not providing any evidence is piquing my interest. I kind of think I'm so widely town read that I'm spewed town at this stage. I don't think RE is even scum reading me anymore.
I find it mildly hilarious that you mention you town read EL for mind melds, but your only two quotes of his you think are wrong. I get that it's because you are only quoting things that needed to be sorted and questioned, but it's still funny to me.
The fact that you spent a lot of time re-litigating why Wheat is scummy is a huge red flag for me. Feels like trying to avoid blame. If EL hadn't done a bit of that as well I'd vote you right now for it.
I really like your question to RE.
Your reply to proph's quotes in spoilers on the other hand I do not. Of course your last stance on Shin matters when your opinion suddenly shifts. It's the same thing you were pointing out at the top of your post as a scum tell in Wheat (who flipped town). You suddenly flipped from defending Shin to being willing to vote him, based on the reasoning of someone who much preferred lynching Wheat... I just don't get it.
Speaking of, the most probable worlds are one with a doctor and one with a roleblocker (I doubt both), and if we have a doctor STAY SILENT! But if we have a role blocker, I think the 1 for 1 would absolutely be worth it at this point for claiming. There is also the less probable worlds where we have someone who is bullet proof, which I think they should probably stay silent at this point for the WIFOM, or even the chance that "Death guard" is literally a bodyguard that activates upon death, which would be really cool.
Part of the reason why I'm asking Shinichi to post his crier message. It's a really long shot since I doubt roleblocks carry on during the day, but I feel Shinichi could have been roleblocked last night.
Well, had I roleblocked Shinichi, I probably would have voted him already this phase. And the fact you're the only one who has done so kind of ruins my theory because the real roleblocker (if exists) has not done so yet. And you're neighborizer, so pretty sure you're not also roleblocker.
Also, random thought, but so far, all the actives revealed are day shots, no? Shinichi's crier, AG gives out shots during the day, and shadow chooses who to neighborize during the day. Weird.
1. I hate that I had to pry activity out of him
2. I hated his response
3. He didn't step in to ensure a no Lynch
4. His comments on WG in this post don't sit right either. He admits that Shin will need to be lynched anyway, but still wants to Lynch WG. When Shin was L-1, he didn't hammer. He uses role assumptions to push WG not alignment. This is important because his #1 focus is on roles (it doesn't matter if he's trying to justify it by him not thinking WG is a PR), not what his alignment is.
5. The Vaimes of late Day 2 was not the Vaimes Proph just refereed to in his quote from Voxx.
Almost Positive Ill have dodge a third at this point
@Prox Why Lie in the first place?
@shadow Uhm are you blind because even though the make focus was me and WG there was alot of apathy. Also why are you still so focused on me? Why not vote prop who obviously lied?
This situation is alot different than this.
1.Re1031 was a suspect at one point so it would make sense for EL to reveal that
This on the otherhand seem's like it hurt town more than helped them. Like unless shadow was absolutely sure proph was scum then why would it ever be necessary to reveal the information.
So u lied to make yourself a target, but outside of that what purpose did that serve?
Maybe I mixed up roles again, but didn't prop claim that hes a neighborer way earlier in the game?
Kill was stopped, someone was saved, or Mafia choose not to kill which i think would be just stupid. But why do we need to discuss this anyways?
I don't understand why your so open to causing a mislynch, if even for a second you believe i could flip town then you should not be voting me lol.
I will get a votecount up later tonight.
I'm going to go dark for a bit while I do a deep re-read of this thread. I'm having major trouble seeing this as anything but another derp-clear attempt. And I think I may have actually accepted some of his others subconsciously. I need to stop doing that, and a full re-read may help.
My ability is day use so I don't think a role block would stop it, that be said I didn't receive any message about being blocked. I just saw no more point to my ability since its already out in the open. Unless you think there is another reason.
OH shadow is the neighorbizer idk why i had the idea it was cross >_<, Im assuming I got mixed up because I knew both had power roles and i confused who had what.
Yep thats one of the negatives of my ability, not sure what purpose it serves though. This game has been going on for a while so i just gonna write role claims in my little notpad near me desk because its very hard to remember stuff, while also hosting my own game.
Evident? Well then. My first thought to Proph's post was something entirely different (Proph protected shadow from a NK) but I guess you're right afterall.
Oh god, the push is real.
I guess toDay will be a big Day for me.
But it would be hiding information from the mafia too, no? I get what RE is saying. There isn't much to conclude from the fact that Proph is a vanilla role, so if shadow and Proph are both town, scum would have just gotten someone to remove from their "kill because PR" list.
We don't have a roleblocker though so where did the kill go?
It wasn't a no-kill plan from scum either like you suggested lol. Four mafia in a 12 players game is a decent joke indeed.
"Deathguard"
I like how what you're saying actually makes sense. Mmh. You know what, I think it's fair to say Rhand might have saved someone somehow?
I understand the Wheat flip might have changed your mind on everything and that you wanted to look at AG after the town Wheat reveal, but I thought you agreed with my reasoning yesterDay that AG is town. Pretty sure I've seen you disreguard the bolded as only a very trivial possibility.
What exactly is an agenda? A careful planning? It if makes you feel any better, I have no idea what I'm gonna do toDay.
I'm not sure where I shaded you? It not like I think you're scum or anything, I'm just puzzled as to why you're so widely townread. Is 'spewed town' something like "the guy who everyone townreads for good measure, including the scum so they're not out of the loop"? If so I understand the concept, I just think it's weird to townread someone because everyone townreads him and I'm not gonna do it because I don't understand where these townreads are coming from.
Am I supposed to revisit the lynch and think "Yeah, Wheat wasn't scummy at all afterall! Darnit, what was I thinking..."? I mean sure, I'm bummed out that I was wrong, but that's about it. I don't really want blame for it so you're right in saying I want to avoid it, though if I deserve blame in the end that's not for me to judge.
Ahh thank you. I didn't even expect a response to this, and I like your reasoning so I feel better now. About you, not necessarily about Grape.
Proph doesn't have a power role lmao.
Okay...
Not being able to post a crier message after 5 posts is the weirdest mechanic I've ever heard of. Also just scrolling down the first page, that's not the case at all.
By an agenda I just mean that you have been pushing for something you see rather than following other's reads. You've been doing that. Very few people this game have. I don't see that as a scum tell here. Just pointing out that town reading people for lack of an agenda is useless when no one except like you, me, and lurker are pushing anything coherent.
By shading I just mean questioning my towniness. You weren't asking people why they thought I was town till I called you out on it. You were actively saying I'm going to look into Grape without providing any reason to do so. The lack of interest in doing anything with it beyond just saying "Hey guys I'm not so sure about that grapefruit character" stood out to me. With everyone else you have these detailed posts going through and pulling a ton of quotes. With me there is none of that, but you keep putting me in your PoE.
As for spewed town it's an idea that someone is so widely town read so quickly that they are very likely town and mafia jumped on to try and earn town points for identifying the read. And then they get too widely town read to really walk it back. I kind of consider Terry that as well because of the way his entrance was the most widely acclaimed townie entrance in the history of mafia.
I agree with the settlement I just was pointing out that you started defending the lynch while under no pressure to do so. I've seen scum do that more than town, but EL did it too, and I really don't think you're scum together so I'm throwing it in the NAI pile.
I just don't even know what to do with today... Like I want to lynch Shin because I see no way around it, but I also just have a hard time seeing mafia being this repeatedly sloppy...
Yeah, that is just a blatant lie. Dunno if it makes him scum, but clearly not true. Good catch.
Vote: Shinichi
Just been.. fairly busy.
I've considered this. But like you say, what kind of rule is this.
Also, @QH, why do you say we don't have a roleblocker? How do you know?
Sat among the cinders
Warming her pretty little toes.
Mother came and caught her
And whipped her little daughter
And just for spite, cut off her nose.
Votecount 3.1 - With 10 alive, it's 6 to lynch.
QuickHoodies (1): Prophylaxis
RE1031 (1): Shinichi
Shinichi (3): shadowlancerx, RE1031, Grapefruit21
Not Voting: AtheistGod, EternalLurker, Quickhoodies, TheRealStinkyJoeTerry, Vaimes
Please inform me of any errors.
Deadline is Wednesday, August 9th, at 2pm MDT.
Well that's why we need Shin to clarify because it's clearly untrue. The thing is the text of the first message suggests otherwise.
It's slightly strange first message to send when you've posted many times already.
I was there when the game started. Shin didn't really wait at all. But I see your point. Still raises to the issue that Shin was at L-2 for a long time and never specified that part of his claim. Seems like a very strange thing to omit. And it's existence makes his claim in his second crier message that the role would be OP even more baffling.
Also checking the time stamps that doesn't even make sense. Shin was the second post of the game and posted 6 times on the 10th. He then continued posting on the 11th which is when the message went up.
But still the more curious part I want answered is the lack of explaining this till now when he'd been in claim range (and explained his role publicly) previously.
The sheer amount of derp clear/spacey-ness coming from Shinichi has gone well past the point of believable and into the realm of forced.
Again I'll offer my couch for someone to request a chat, I've already picked someone but might be up for a change.