WG sounds pretty town. Not exactly certain what he sees as scummy from Vaimes, but his tone is townie.
AG, I know this game is off to a slow start, but how about some why's. Why is WG pretty town? Tone? You can do better. I don't want to mislynch you again, so do some splaining.
Just a feeling. I don't think he comes in as scum and says "I don't have anything right now, kbai!". I've been scum with him before, he's very much into acting, and being on active crusades. He doesn't lurk. and this behavior doesn't fall into this pattern. If he came in like AG, and said "Grape = good, Vaimes = good, and I like shadow too, kbai" *that* would have sent off alarms.
I think I'm most convinced with a town grape world. Which would lead me down a path where Vaimes is probably town, and suspicion falls to WG/Kpaca, Sinichi/QH worlds.
Why are you voting for AG instead of exploring these worlds?
so I am, I am asking you about specifically how you feel about your "Wagon" and the Kpaca/WG stuff. Because I'd like to hear if I'm totally off base with those two.
As far as Sinichi, he's gonna talk himself right into a noose if he's scum. And if not, I think he either deserves to fool me through sheer effort or he's town. Either way, I'm content to let him continue on as he is. Pressure there doesn't help. I would like to see more pressure on QH, but AG's entrance and his latest post, continue to alarm me more than anyone.
WG sounds pretty town. Not exactly certain what he sees as scummy from Vaimes, but his tone is townie.
AG, I know this game is off to a slow start, but how about some why's. Why is WG pretty town? Tone? You can do better. I don't want to mislynch you again, so do some splaining.
Terry, can you explain why you're worried about mislynching AG?
@Wheat Sure so there are a couple things commiting reads to the record is a good sign. It's harder to back out of them later if you get them out early so I like the existence of those two posts.
Second I really like his QH read.
Third and weaker I like his tale on RE. It looks super sketchy, but it rings true to me. If either of them were to flip scum it would make me look at the other but RE is raising valid points without really driving anything which doesn't scream scummy. In short I like his town reads.
It seems that, regardless of their alignments, poking at kpaca and WG isn't going to be very productive. I can already see myself getting annoyed at them, so I'll let other people handle that unless either of those two have specific questions for me.
Town: Vaimes
Townlean: Grapefruit, WG, QH, RE1031
Null: Roger Sherman, Joe Terry, AG, Mindreaver, shadowlancerx
Scumlean: kpaca, Shinichi
Scum:
---
@shadow
Can you tell me why you like Grapefruit, why you unvoted kpaca, and what you expect kpaca to do as a result? Please be specific.
What I see here is an effort to extend an olive branch instead of actually being concerned about a read even superficially, and...
I think Grapefruit is town, specifically for 107. Glad WG agrees with me!
I'm okay with the way WG is handling me, though I'm loathe to actually interact with him.
RE1031 just kind of feels agenda-less.
QH is more of a shrugread. I think it'd be weird for scum to be accused of making large empty posts, by responding to that accusation with an even bigger wallpost going over his own past posts to make a point. Reads more as towny defiance/snark.
I can only recall one game I played in with WG, some micro with a cult mechanic. He scumread me most of D1 for some reason, can't remember and don't feel like looking it up, then he reversed his read on me when I self-voted. Basically I feel like he's handling me in a similar fashion.
Though the way he's handling me also means that trying to interact with him will suck the fun out of the game for me. It gives off a very "you're scum so I don't care about anything you have to say," vibe, which I don't feel like subjecting myself to. So I'll interact with other people and he'll see I'm town sooner or later.
Why is Vaimes STILL talking about me if he thinks I'm town?? He seems very concerned about what I think, and is very interested in talking about it all the time. His other reads are extremely superficial, with no hard scum reads, which further drives home the fact that he *does not care* about hunting scum right now. He only cares about currying favor from me.
that was Titanic ultimatum, which I remember because it's the game that actually got me interested in Mafia. I didn't realize that was your only other game with Wheat.
So why are you town reading him?
There was another game that I don't recall offhand. I've played with Vaimes at least twice.
Well that was an incredibly self-centered twist on my posts.
In what universe does not having a hard, no brakes, this guy is 100% mafia scumread = not caring about scumhunting?
I talked about you a little more because shadow asked me about my read on you. Did you miss his post? Do you think I have a crush on you and can't help myself?
Frankly, I don't care about you more or less than any other player in this game, nor have I gone out of my way to talk about you. I'm "pocketing" you about as much as I pocketed Grapefruit, which is to say I don't really want to lynch either of you and would appreciate the opportunity to discuss reads with people I don't think are mafia.
I don't like this vote. Seems like an early bandwagon disguised as thought. I town read Sinichi early, well pretty close to that, I didn't see anything outwardly scummy. I'm just not feeling the sincerity.
UNVTOTE, VOTE: RE1031
Grapefruit admitted that he always scum reads Shinichi. I'm saying that Shinichi is not often town read. Shinichi can probably confirm that I in the past have scum read him and lynched him as town while at it. I've seen plenty of people struggle to read Shinichi. So I am suspicious of what led kpaca to say that Shinichi was a town read, even if it was soft.
What you're saying right now about how you feel about Shinichi is he's neutral. Someone who does nothing outwardly scummy nor outwardly townie (I'm assuming here) is neutral.
And I honestly haven't been keeping track of votes, I thought at least one person removed their votes from kpaca.
TBF i do get town read more often than scum read, but not in the early game. But if we compare this to a game on ms this would normally already be day 2, so technically its not strange that someone has a slight town read on me. The question that arises is do you scum read me? Or do u just question kpaca town read?
I don't like this vote. Seems like an early bandwagon disguised as thought. I town read Sinichi early, well pretty close to that, I didn't see anything outwardly scummy.
Can you go over this a little bit more? Why are you equating "not scummy" with "I townread him early"?
I don't think they're close concepts at all.
I mean if you town read them then obviously at the time you think they havent done or acting scummy am i wrong so come to the assumption?
It seems that, regardless of [his] alignment, poking at kpaca isn't going to be very productive. I can already see myself getting annoyed at [him]
Like his early posts did not feel like I have started expecting from him, but as soon as I called him out, he turned into a troll again.
What I'm hoping is that I'll be able to read him without the back and forth fight that would come from continuing to push him, because I have a feeling that he'll self resolve.
What does this mean for his alignment though, I practically used to playing with trolls in my mafia games so doesnt really change my view unless its someone new that im playing with. The way I see it is if hes doing something unatural for a town aligned player then yes you should be wary, but nothing he's done feels that obvious something scum would say, if anything its possible hes a carefree townie.
We had roughly 7 people actively posting in the beginning. My hypothesis is, that there is some number of scum in:
Grapefruit21
kpaca
Quickhoodies
Shinichi
Vaimes
Wheat_Grinder
Sorry to cut out most of this post, but i have to agree with you here outside of myself im sure atleast 1 of these players are scum if not 2.
If it's 1 then im pretty positive one of the quiet one is partnered with a talker. Though this theory is completely invalid if 3 mafia are in this game but i feel as though its more likely 2 are involved.
Shinichi, do you think Mindreaver is scum? If so, why?
If you think someone else is scum, please move your vote over to them and explain why you think they're mafia.
If you don't want to move your vote, please explain why.
I'll start off by saying i barely move my vote,unless it's to pursue a very strong scum read.
For now tho Unvote
I would say i am neutral on him still I can't really get a good read on him yet, if anything all my reads on players are very lacking cause not used to playing with any of you except the 4 I know.
I talked about you a little more because shadow asked me about my read on you. Did you miss his post? Do you think I have a crush on you and can't help myself?
TBF i do get town read more often than scum read, but not in the early game. But if we compare this to a game on ms this would normally already be day 2, so technically its not strange that someone has a slight town read on me. The question that arises is do you scum read me? Or do u just question kpaca town read?
I question the read, I don't scum read you (yet). Actually, my case on kpaca kind of assumed you were town; I didn't think he was defending you as partners, I thought he was pocketing you (softly). I thought I sensed a tonal change, but right now, you seem no different from town. In fact, while it may seem like your 1,2,3 reply about there being no reason to town read Grapefruit for asking for old games is scummy, I don't think scum would be that rejecting of an idea. Scum love going on tangents. For now, I'm going to treat you as town, but as always, this is prone to change.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you.
We had roughly 7 people actively posting in the beginning. My hypothesis is, that there is some number of scum in:
Grapefruit21
kpaca
Quickhoodies
Shinichi
Vaimes
Wheat_Grinder
Sorry to cut out most of this post, but i have to agree with you here outside of myself im sure atleast 1 of these players are scum if not 2.
If it's 1 then im pretty positive one of the quiet one is partnered with a talker. Though this theory is completely invalid if 3 mafia are in this game but i feel as though its more likely 2 are involved.
Why do you think there are only two mafia now, when earlier you were speculating three?
Well that was an incredibly self-centered twist on my posts.
In what universe does not having a hard, no brakes, this guy is 100% mafia scumread = not caring about scumhunting?
I talked about you a little more because shadow asked me about my read on you. Did you miss his post? Do you think I have a crush on you and can't help myself?
Frankly, I don't care about you more or less than any other player in this game, nor have I gone out of my way to talk about you. I'm "pocketing" you about as much as I pocketed Grapefruit, which is to say I don't really want to lynch either of you and would appreciate the opportunity to discuss reads with people I don't think are mafia.
I saw Shadow's post. I saw your reply. I ignored that post because there was actually a reason for it.
I failed to see a convincing reason that you were so focused on saying you had nothing on me and weren't pursuing me, while also not pursuing anyone else.
I don't care that you don't have a balls to the wall scumread - I mentioned it because it would make more sense if you had one. I care that you're *not trying to hunt for one*.
1. AtheistGod (Neutral)-Not really enough to go by to figure out any sort of motive/Alignment
2. Grapefruit21 (Town)- Just from his interactions with vaimes and me I believe he is town atleast from the first 4 pages, time may change that.
3. kpaca (Town) - Like I said in a recent post he's more neutral/town lean than anything, his town read on me doesnt feel as sloppy as others make it out to be, honestly he's prob just noticecd something that others haven't.
4. Mindreaver (Neutral)- You come off as neutral for me for the same reason as QH but i don't know you as a player I just can't get a read off of you at all.
5. Quickhoodies (Neutral)-With his big posts and knowledge of the kind of player he is I honestly can't get anything from his posts.
6. RE1031(Scum Lean)- Your leaning way to onto just for my particular liking, I feel as though scum would normally just to pocket those who they are friends with and tho we aren't voting together it seems like you really like talking about me my DC buddy.
7. Roger Sherman(Neutral)-Not really enough to go by to figure out any sort of motive/Alignment
8. shadowlancerx (Scum Lean)-You seemed to be white knighting me alot which i found weird and i only noticed now after i back read, also you focused alot of your early posts on Kpaca, seem's like you were eager to jump on a person you could put alot of eyes on.
10. TheRealStinkyJoeTerry (Town)- This prob very biased but his entrance alone screams town motivated and a town player
11. Vaimes (Town/Scum)- Our interaction states 1 thing either I'm scum or your scum, but I don't think either is true your reaction towards me states that your town. Only reason i put the scum part is because other feel as though that is what makes you a scumlean.
12. Wheat_Grinder (town)- I believe you are hands down town just from your interactions with the other players.
After tomorrow ill prob reread all of vaimes post so i can get a proper read on him, same goes for the others i tagged as scum or scum lean.
We had roughly 7 people actively posting in the beginning. My hypothesis is, that there is some number of scum in:
Grapefruit21
kpaca
Quickhoodies
Shinichi
Vaimes
Wheat_Grinder
Sorry to cut out most of this post, but i have to agree with you here outside of myself im sure atleast 1 of these players are scum if not 2.
If it's 1 then im pretty positive one of the quiet one is partnered with a talker. Though this theory is completely invalid if 3 mafia are in this game but i feel as though its more likely 2 are involved.
Why do you think there are only two mafia now, when earlier you were speculating three?
Cause now that i look back at it when i played a setup this small on mafia scum they were only 2 scum, so it's possible both games have a similar alignment setup.
We had roughly 7 people actively posting in the beginning. My hypothesis is, that there is some number of scum in:
Grapefruit21
kpaca
Quickhoodies
Shinichi
Vaimes
Wheat_Grinder
Sorry to cut out most of this post, but i have to agree with you here outside of myself im sure atleast 1 of these players are scum if not 2.
If it's 1 then im pretty positive one of the quiet one is partnered with a talker. Though this theory is completely invalid if 3 mafia are in this game but i feel as though its more likely 2 are involved.
Ngl I'm not a fan of narrowing down suspects like this. I think this is a scummy thing to do - it directs attention away from the person who makes the list and the people not in the list and gets the people in the list to be against each other. I've seen this before, although much later in the game. You can analyze interactions to theorize alignment, but listing? If Mindreaver is a townie, then this might just end up giving scum a free pass. If they're scum, then this list is actually quite manipulative. And I think it's working.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you.
I failed to see a convincing reason that you were so focused on saying you had nothing on me and weren't pursuing me, while also not pursuing anyone else.
I don't care that you don't have a balls to the wall scumread - I mentioned it because it would make more sense if you had one. I care that you're *not trying to hunt for one*.
What about you? Are we talking about scumreads or not?
There have been very, very few games where I've 1) had a hard/definitive scumread, or 2) looked for one. I find people I believe to be town and shruglynch my way through everyone else with constant reevaluation. This is, has been, and for the foreseeable future, will always be true. I'm not going to change my playstyle just because you think I need to play a certain way to townread me.
As it is, I'm in the process of using Shinichi to figure out the game as best I can. If you want to sell me on him being town, since you were so sparse on your earlier explanation(s), feel free. Other people's reads haven't done it for me.
6. RE1031(Scum Lean)- Your leaning way to onto just for my particular liking, I feel as though scum would normally just to pocket those who they are friends with and tho we aren't voting together it seems like you really like talking about me my DC buddy.
I thought you knew me better than that... ;-;
If you think I'm leaning onto you, it's only because you're the only one here I know.
As for other players, I'm finding Vaimes to be my strongest town read. He's actively defending others and himself. Half the time, votes are a result of failure to communicate with one another, but I feel he's helping clarify things. kpaca I have a inkling of suspicion to be jester. He's not worried at all, but he hasn't actually bothered defending himself? Terry's on and off vote on me I don't quite get, could be nothing, or could be scum who saw an opportunity but doesn't seem worth it now. Mindreaver I probably will have to take a closer look at, because his list, it bothers me.
I'm having a lot of trouble distinguishing players from each other. Hopefully through interactions I'll get a better feel.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you.
I failed to see a convincing reason that you were so focused on saying you had nothing on me and weren't pursuing me, while also not pursuing anyone else.
I don't care that you don't have a balls to the wall scumread - I mentioned it because it would make more sense if you had one. I care that you're *not trying to hunt for one*.
What about you? Are we talking about scumreads or not?
There have been very, very few games where I've 1) had a hard/definitive scumread, or 2) looked for one. I find people I believe to be town and shruglynch my way through everyone else with constant reevaluation. This is, has been, and for the foreseeable future, will always be true. I'm not going to change my playstyle just because you think I need to play a certain way to townread me.
As it is, I'm in the process of using Shinichi to figure out the game as best I can. If you want to sell me on him being town, since you were so sparse on your earlier explanation(s), feel free. Other people's reads haven't done it for me.
I don't recall that playstyle from you. That said, I also don't mind being wrong. I'll reread Titanic Ultimatum soon. If you do play like that, then I'll reconsider the read. But if you don't play like that, it's the last nail in the coffin because it means you're trying to play like you think you do when you're town.
And, if it's truly your playstyle to not do anything and shruglynch...I'm disappointed. You should try harder than that.
In the meantime, as for Shinichi - there's a certain type of player who does scummy things without malice. It's the malice part that makes that sort of player actually scum.
I failed to see a convincing reason that you were so focused on saying you had nothing on me and weren't pursuing me, while also not pursuing anyone else.
I don't care that you don't have a balls to the wall scumread - I mentioned it because it would make more sense if you had one. I care that you're *not trying to hunt for one*.
What about you? Are we talking about scumreads or not?
There have been very, very few games where I've 1) had a hard/definitive scumread, or 2) looked for one. I find people I believe to be town and shruglynch my way through everyone else with constant reevaluation. This is, has been, and for the foreseeable future, will always be true. I'm not going to change my playstyle just because you think I need to play a certain way to townread me.
As it is, I'm in the process of using Shinichi to figure out the game as best I can. If you want to sell me on him being town, since you were so sparse on your earlier explanation(s), feel free. Other people's reads haven't done it for me.
I don't recall that playstyle from you. That said, I also don't mind being wrong. I'll reread Titanic Ultimatum soon. If you do play like that, then I'll reconsider the read. But if you don't play like that, it's the last nail in the coffin because it means you're trying to play like you think you do when you're town.
And, if it's truly your playstyle to not do anything and shruglynch...I'm disappointed. You should try harder than that.
In the meantime, as for Shinichi - there's a certain type of player who does scummy things without malice. It's the malice part that makes that sort of player actually scum.
Excuse you, finding town and denying scum mislynches can be just as game-winning as finding scum, thanks.
WG sounds pretty town. Not exactly certain what he sees as scummy from Vaimes, but his tone is townie.
AG, I know this game is off to a slow start, but how about some why's. Why is WG pretty town? Tone? You can do better. I don't want to mislynch you again, so do some splaining.
WG is actively engaged. He is more disinterested when he's scum.
I don't buy that read at all. Like not even remotely.
But it'd be pretty ballsy for scum seeing their buddy getting pressured on page one and think "yeah okay a super soft defense sounds like a good idea right about now."
I don't quite understand the context of the second sentence. If this was something you were considering beforehand why the pressure on Shin? Mindraver mentions also on Page2 that you're a robot. #96 I assume this is as your very logical when playing, but this post doesn't seem to follow much. It looks more to me like something to do in RVS or to build a persona of working out conclusions among the others. Care to share your mindset during this time?
Lets do that. I don't quite buy the "ZOmg, you don't care about alignments", nor the "I don't believe your read, at all" stuff. I mean, maybe those stances happen, but this early? Barely page 2? No. That's too much conviction. I might buy that you're just fishing for responses. But I'm also seeing you buddying/pocketing Grape, and it's pinging me so hard.
FOS: QUickHoodie - Why are you so tryhard? You have the longest post to date (or did ), and it's about literally nothing. I get wanting to make content. But is that coming from a "I feel pressure to help solve the game and demonstrate my towniness"? or is it from "zomg, if I don't start posting something, I"ll be marked as a lurker". Not sure yet.
On another note altogether. This game would be too small for a serial killer right? Just considering the flavor, I would have thought that was a natural extension. But 12 seems too few to suffer more than one kill a night for any length of time.
Why are you considering the flavor when it has no relevance to the game? Also you complain about the lack of content yet fail to suggest a means of remedy or try to prevent it. Why? It sounds like an excuse to not have an opinion.
Mindreaver, I don't really understand you complaining about there being nothing [to analyze], but criticizing me for my conviction (which implies I have content to dig through) and Quickhoodies for being a "tryhard."
Like...you say there's nothing, yet you have two pretty detailed scum/FOS reads. Barely on page two. No, that's too much conviction, etc.
This post comes off too defensive with the snark attached at the end. It seems a little too early for that if there truly was hardly anything to have faith in reads on.
I mean, that's what struck me about you. Not that you picked up on that stuff, but how quickly you went from 0 to 100. I'm gonna go read the rest of your responses, because i just glossed over it quickly earlier. I was more interested to see how you and Grapefruit would respond, specifically if I could see if you were scum that were pleased how you'd positioned yourselves.
I would wager they wouldn't be too pleased with how they positioned themselves considering Shin was being suspected early on. If they wanted to build a town read, then sure but that had yet to happen as of this post. How exactly would you tell if this were the case?
Is this sarcasm? Because unless you have absolute proof hes town for me hes guilty just like everyone else.
Also I think you read this post wrong, or maybe my grammar just sucks. I was saying should i be worried that the person who i said was aggresive announced that he had a slight town read on me. I wasn't implying i town read him but like I said my grammar ****ed that sentence up pretty badly.
Why is everyone guilty for you? You seem to have conflicting thoughts in this post.
So with that in mind, I had two or three scenarios:
1) Grape and Vaimes are a team, and are powerwolfing like crazy. They still could be, but based on Grape's reaction, or lack of one, when I went after Vaimes. I'm at least comfortable they aren't aligned.
2) Kpaca and WG were both behaving in a similar way. One-liners, and not much input, while keeping post count up. The difference there, was that I didn't see kpaca's agenda. Like, he's abrasive, and it's generally unhelpful. But that doesn't advance any scum worldview, he's not probing for mislynches, or discrediting anyone, even his "townread" was loose. WG was more troublesome, since he did comment on specific people, and kinda piled on to the Vaimes wagon. I disagree with Vaime that Kpaca was the scum on his wagon, and I think it might be WG. Assuming we see Vaimes flip town at some point.
3) Shinichi and QH seemed like they could be aligned, just the way they are interacting. But that also just seems like it could be that they know one another, and were more comfortable interacting with each other. If Shinichi is indeed scum here, that would seem to vindicate Vaimes.
I think I'm most convinced with a town grape world. Which would lead me down a path where Vaimes is probably town, and suspicion falls to WG/Kpaca, Sinichi/QH worlds.
I hated AGs entrance, and when contrasted with Terry's, I can't help feel Terry is town and AG just looked forced into making reads the second he came in. Shadow is null, RE I need to reread a bit.
I think I'd like to Vote AG. I'd like to see something other than consensus reads out of you.
1)That seems like a rather weak reason to be comfortable a pair aren't aligned. What about Grape makes you think that he would take up for Vaimes?
2)I can see how these reasons would work for Kpaca and WG individually, but I'm not seeing how it relates to them being a team. Mafia doesn't have to be in sync with their strategies. Playing to your town meta early on in RVS is just as helpful as strong arming opinion and thought.
3)Care to elaborate? Just what exactly is it about their interactions? This doesn't really speak of your thought processes, and more so to the general opinion.
Shinichi, do you think Mindreaver is scum? If so, why?
If you think someone else is scum, please move your vote over to them and explain why you think they're mafia.
If you don't want to move your vote, please explain why.
I'll start off by saying i barely move my vote,unless it's to pursue a very strong scum read.
For now tho Unvote
I would say i am neutral on him still I can't really get a good read on him yet, if anything all my reads on players are very lacking cause not used to playing with any of you except the 4 I know.
How about trying to get a pinpoint read on the four you know then? Or are you afraid we'll use our meta to fool you?
Ngl I'm not a fan of narrowing down suspects like this. I think this is a scummy thing to do - it directs attention away from the person who makes the list and the people not in the list and gets the people in the list to be against each other. I've seen this before, although much later in the game. You can analyze interactions to theorize alignment, but listing? If Mindreaver is a townie, then this might just end up giving scum a free pass. If they're scum, then this list is actually quite manipulative. And I think it's working.
I was under a similar impression when I first read the post despite agreeing with it. Though they seemed to not really do anything with it. Just set it out there.
Though this theory is completely invalid if 3 mafia are in this game but i feel as though its more likely 2 are involved.
O.o
How many 12 player games have you played in, and how many had 2 scum? Maybe just a site by site difference, but all of the 12 player setups that follow traditional Mafia rules that I've seen use 3.
3. kpaca (Town) - Like I said in a recent post he's more neutral/town lean than anything, his town read on me doesnt feel as sloppy as others make it out to be, honestly he's prob just noticecd something that others haven't.
You're going to have to delve into this one a bit more. What did he notice?
Quote from Shinichi »
8. shadowlancerx (Scum Lean)-You seemed to be white knighting me alot which i found weird and i only noticed now after i back read
I'm sorry, what? This is blatantly false.
Vote Shinichi
Anyone townreading Shinichi, please go back and read his read wall, it's a mess.
Like sure, a couple people have said he gets scum read regardless, but that read walls screams "keep options open."
We had roughly 7 people actively posting in the beginning. My hypothesis is, that there is some number of scum in:
Grapefruit21
kpaca
Quickhoodies
Shinichi
Vaimes
Wheat_Grinder
Sorry to cut out most of this post, but i have to agree with you here outside of myself im sure atleast 1 of these players are scum if not 2.
If it's 1 then im pretty positive one of the quiet one is partnered with a talker. Though this theory is completely invalid if 3 mafia are in this game but i feel as though its more likely 2 are involved.
Ngl I'm not a fan of narrowing down suspects like this. I think this is a scummy thing to do - it directs attention away from the person who makes the list and the people not in the list and gets the people in the list to be against each other. I've seen this before, although much later in the game. You can analyze interactions to theorize alignment, but listing? If Mindreaver is a townie, then this might just end up giving scum a free pass. If they're scum, then this list is actually quite manipulative. And I think it's working.
Interesting. I like you. Moving you to the town column. I hadn't really thought about it in that way.
I wasn't really trying to, give anyone a pass. I just wanted to share my thought process in the beginning. Obviously it's going to change. It's entirely possible that the entire scum team didn't post actively when the game started. In that case, I'm still pretty set on AG, at least until I get more from him. I'd like an answer from terry as well.
I promised content today but it is late now and I just want to sleep. No promises about tomorrow, but I should be reasonably active over the weekend.
Quick thoughts on this most recent page town + for RE, Mind, and Shadow
Scum + for Roger and Shinichi.
Wheat and Vaimes highly unlikely to be (knowingly) aligned.
I keep forgetting AG is in the game, but I also don't want to lynch him again D1 for lack of presence. Burned me before.
Not willing to lynch Vaimes, Shadow, RE, or Mind at this stage.
V/LA heads up: I will be on a 18 hour flight on my tuesday the 20th (currently thursday night here) and my access will be spotty for the couple of days after that, but I will be making an effort to be engaged.
Lets do that. I don't quite buy the "ZOmg, you don't care about alignments", nor the "I don't believe your read, at all" stuff. I mean, maybe those stances happen, but this early? Barely page 2? No. That's too much conviction. I might buy that you're just fishing for responses. But I'm also seeing you buddying/pocketing Grape, and it's pinging me so hard.
FOS: QUickHoodie - Why are you so tryhard? You have the longest post to date (or did ), and it's about literally nothing. I get wanting to make content. But is that coming from a "I feel pressure to help solve the game and demonstrate my towniness"? or is it from "zomg, if I don't start posting something, I"ll be marked as a lurker". Not sure yet.
On another note altogether. This game would be too small for a serial killer right? Just considering the flavor, I would have thought that was a natural extension. But 12 seems too few to suffer more than one kill a night for any length of time.
Why are you considering the flavor when it has no relevance to the game? Also you complain about the lack of content yet fail to suggest a means of remedy or try to prevent it. Why? It sounds like an excuse to not have an opinion.
I'm sorry, this is Silence of the Lambs. FBI and Serial Killer Cannibal. I know from my own name, that the good and bad guy names are all mixed up (I'm a bad guy, but I'm town if anyone cares). So I know we can't trust flavor. But having a silence of the lambs mafia without a serial killer... is like having Star Wars mafia without Jedi. But my gut said there was no way you can have a neutral serial killer in a 12 man game. So I wanted to see what other people thought.
The interesting part of this for me, is that you are coming after me complaining about content without adding any. Of course, my vote on Vaimes certainly added conversation, as did my criticism of QH. Both were attempts that remedying the situation. I've been added thoughts this whole time, and following up, so I think this argument is an empty one. I'm a little surprised you didn't say the same things regarding Terry, AG, or QH. Also, I've got plenty of opinions
Mindreaver, I don't really understand you complaining about there being nothing [to analyze], but criticizing me for my conviction (which implies I have content to dig through) and Quickhoodies for being a "tryhard."
Like...you say there's nothing, yet you have two pretty detailed scum/FOS reads. Barely on page two. No, that's too much conviction, etc.
This post comes off too defensive with the snark attached at the end. It seems a little too early for that if there truly was hardly anything to have faith in reads on.
I thought the same here. It was too defensive. Good observation. Thinking that you and Vaimes aren't scum together at the very least.
I mean, that's what struck me about you. Not that you picked up on that stuff, but how quickly you went from 0 to 100. I'm gonna go read the rest of your responses, because i just glossed over it quickly earlier. I was more interested to see how you and Grapefruit would respond, specifically if I could see if you were scum that were pleased how you'd positioned yourselves.
I would wager they wouldn't be too pleased with how they positioned themselves considering Shin was being suspected early on. If they wanted to build a town read, then sure but that had yet to happen as of this post. How exactly would you tell if this were the case?
I don't quite understand what you mean here. I'm saying that Vaimes and Grape had positioned themselves rather well, as is evidenced with Shadow's posts (where they align "organically") and AG's entry post (where we says he townreads both Vaimes and Grape). I think they were considered, at the time, to be the most townie posters, specifically by going after Shin. The test here, was to see if Vaimes and Grape would both act in concert when confronted. Grape seemed thoughtful, and Vaimes seemed defensive. I would have expected Grape to have defended his buddy in that situation.
So with that in mind, I had two or three scenarios:
1) Grape and Vaimes are a team, and are powerwolfing like crazy. They still could be, but based on Grape's reaction, or lack of one, when I went after Vaimes. I'm at least comfortable they aren't aligned.
2) Kpaca and WG were both behaving in a similar way. One-liners, and not much input, while keeping post count up. The difference there, was that I didn't see kpaca's agenda. Like, he's abrasive, and it's generally unhelpful. But that doesn't advance any scum worldview, he's not probing for mislynches, or discrediting anyone, even his "townread" was loose. WG was more troublesome, since he did comment on specific people, and kinda piled on to the Vaimes wagon. I disagree with Vaime that Kpaca was the scum on his wagon, and I think it might be WG. Assuming we see Vaimes flip town at some point.
3) Shinichi and QH seemed like they could be aligned, just the way they are interacting. But that also just seems like it could be that they know one another, and were more comfortable interacting with each other. If Shinichi is indeed scum here, that would seem to vindicate Vaimes.
I think I'm most convinced with a town grape world. Which would lead me down a path where Vaimes is probably town, and suspicion falls to WG/Kpaca, Sinichi/QH worlds.
I hated AGs entrance, and when contrasted with Terry's, I can't help feel Terry is town and AG just looked forced into making reads the second he came in. Shadow is null, RE I need to reread a bit.
I think I'd like to Vote AG. I'd like to see something other than consensus reads out of you.
1)That seems like a rather weak reason to be comfortable a pair aren't aligned. What about Grape makes you think that he would take up for Vaimes?
2)I can see how these reasons would work for Kpaca and WG individually, but I'm not seeing how it relates to them being a team. Mafia doesn't have to be in sync with their strategies. Playing to your town meta early on in RVS is just as helpful as strong arming opinion and thought.
3)Care to elaborate? Just what exactly is it about their interactions? This doesn't really speak of your thought processes, and more so to the general opinion.
1) I do think that if Grape and Vaimes were scum together, then the plan was to mislynch shin, or at least be seen to go after a somewhat scummy target early and build towncred. I think in that scenario, the response to "Vaimes is scum" is Vaimes to say "no I'm not" and Grape to say "I don't think so, he's so town". This isn't something I'm married to. Grape could conceivably be a much better player than I am (spoiler, he is), but that's just WIFOM. I'm going to trust, for now, that they aren't aligned. That doesn't clear Vaimes, but it does make me feel a lot better about my Grape read.
2) I probably should have been clearer. I don't think WG and Kpaca are a team. I think they are acting in a similar way, and this scenario is more of a lone-scum-in-my-list-of-six scenario. Because if Vaimes/Grape/Shin are all town, I have to look at those who are keeping up post count without doing anything. QH and kpaca do fit that pattern, but with no agenda I can see. That's what this is all about.
3) So the world here is that Vaimes and Grape are town, and have genuinely caught Shin. In that case, I think QH's interaction is questionable, and I'd put him and shin as aligned. That's what I was trying to get out, but didn't articulate well.
I promised content today but it is late now and I just want to sleep. No promises about tomorrow, but I should be reasonably active over the weekend.
Quick thoughts on this most recent page town + for RE, Mind, and Shadow
Scum + for Roger and Shinichi.
Wheat and Vaimes highly unlikely to be (knowingly) aligned.
I keep forgetting AG is in the game, but I also don't want to lynch him again D1 for lack of presence. Burned me before.
Not willing to lynch Vaimes, Shadow, RE, or Mind at this stage.
V/LA heads up: I will be on a 18 hour flight on my tuesday the 20th (currently thursday night here) and my access will be spotty for the couple of days after that, but I will be making an effort to be engaged.
Have a good flight!
Regarding AG, to me he's one you kind of just let alone for a day and see what he does. I'm not willing to wagon him based on the low impact argument.
I promised content today but it is late now and I just want to sleep. No promises about tomorrow, but I should be reasonably active over the weekend.
Quick thoughts on this most recent page town + for RE, Mind, and Shadow
Scum + for Roger and Shinichi.
Wheat and Vaimes highly unlikely to be (knowingly) aligned.
I keep forgetting AG is in the game, but I also don't want to lynch him again D1 for lack of presence. Burned me before.
Not willing to lynch Vaimes, Shadow, RE, or Mind at this stage.
V/LA heads up: I will be on a 18 hour flight on my tuesday the 20th (currently thursday night here) and my access will be spotty for the couple of days after that, but I will be making an effort to be engaged.
Have a good flight!
Regarding AG, to me he's one you kind of just let alone for a day and see what he does. I'm not willing to wagon him based on the low impact argument.
I can appreciate that argument for not quick-lynching him D1 (I'm not in favor of that either). I cannot accept it if you're talking about not applying pressure for better/more content (which is what I want).
So yeah, he could be today's lynch, IFF he doesn't respond to these prompts. It's the only way to make sure the pressure means anything. Giving him a "wait till Day 2 at least" pass, doesn't help.
I can appreciate that argument for not quick-lynching him D1 (I'm not in favor of that either). I cannot accept it if you're talking about not applying pressure for better/more content (which is what I want).
So yeah, he could be today's lynch, IFF he doesn't respond to these prompts. It's the only way to make sure the pressure means anything. Giving him a "wait till Day 2 at least" pass, doesn't help.
Fair enough. I guess a day 1 lynch of AG based on his impact just sounds like the same song and dance that's happened a few times and not worked then either.
I'm sorry, this is Silence of the Lambs. FBI and Serial Killer Cannibal. I know from my own name, that the good and bad guy names are all mixed up (I'm a bad guy, but I'm town if anyone cares). So I know we can't trust flavor. But having a silence of the lambs mafia without a serial killer... is like having Star Wars mafia without Jedi. But my gut said there was no way you can have a neutral serial killer in a 12 man game. So I wanted to see what other people thought.
The interesting part of this for me, is that you are coming after me complaining about content without adding any. Of course, my vote on Vaimes certainly added conversation, as did my criticism of QH. Both were attempts that remedying the situation. I've been added thoughts this whole time, and following up, so I think this argument is an empty one. I'm a little surprised you didn't say the same things regarding Terry, AG, or QH. Also, I've got plenty of opinions
So you have a specific character name attached to your role? Interesting. That is something to make note of. While I can understand your reasons for asking about it, focusing on the SK can be a tactic to shift suspicion and increase doubt within the town. With more enemies there are less allies and one has to be more careful with who they trust. That was my concern along with reminding you that flavor does not play a significant role in this game.
Do not misunderstand me, I have no room to complain of lack of content. I was more so drawing attention to your lack of commitment to your stance. You really didn't seem like someone aggravated by the lack of content and who was willing to change it in order to help town forward. It was simply a small grievance you had for one reason or another. Also consider the question was made at the time of reading it. I won't deny you've added to the discussions so far, but I'll need to further judge those posts again as my memory of last night is hazy.
I don't quite understand what you mean here. I'm saying that Vaimes and Grape had positioned themselves rather well, as is evidenced with Shadow's posts (where they align "organically") and AG's entry post (where we says he townreads both Vaimes and Grape). I think they were considered, at the time, to be the most townie posters, specifically by going after Shin. The test here, was to see if Vaimes and Grape would both act in concert when confronted. Grape seemed thoughtful, and Vaimes seemed defensive. I would have expected Grape to have defended his buddy in that situation.
Strange. This has nothing to do with the post that I quoted. Mind you I can understand you forgetting or not recognizing it from the portion I quoted alone. But the 0 to 100 comment was specifically aimed at Shinichi and no one else. He even answers it here. #114.
Not exactly sure. So far my notes are that he might be scummy for exactly the reasons you've noted. Basically not taking that "next step" that people who haven't solved the game might take. But that doesn't help me much right now, since he's never played here before, I've never played with him, and I have no idea what his skill level is.
So @Shinichi: What's your history? Are you a rockstar?
I mean, that's what struck me about you. Not that you picked up on that stuff, but how quickly you went from 0 to 100. I'm gonna go read the rest of your responses, because i just glossed over it quickly earlier. I was more interested to see how you and Grapefruit would respond, specifically if I could see if you were scum that were pleased how you'd positioned yourselves.
I'll comment on Kpaca as well. Seems like he just playing a "I'm drop one-liners" game for now. But I don't see him having much of an agenda. Like, I just don't see him steering the convo any particular place or making anyone in particular looks suspect. I'll feel better when he stops with the games, and has content. But I don't see a smoking gun either.
Care to answer it again? I do not see how Vaimes and Grape relate to a post directed at Shinichi and discussing your view on him.
1) I do think that if Grape and Vaimes were scum together, then the plan was to mislynch shin, or at least be seen to go after a somewhat scummy target early and build towncred. I think in that scenario, the response to "Vaimes is scum" is Vaimes to say "no I'm not" and Grape to say "I don't think so, he's so town". This isn't something I'm married to. Grape could conceivably be a much better player than I am (spoiler, he is), but that's just WIFOM. I'm going to trust, for now, that they aren't aligned. That doesn't clear Vaimes, but it does make me feel a lot better about my Grape read.
2) I probably should have been clearer. I don't think WG and Kpaca are a team. I think they are acting in a similar way, and this scenario is more of a lone-scum-in-my-list-of-six scenario. Because if Vaimes/Grape/Shin are all town, I have to look at those who are keeping up post count without doing anything. QH and kpaca do fit that pattern, but with no agenda I can see. That's what this is all about.
3) So the world here is that Vaimes and Grape are town, and have genuinely caught Shin. In that case, I think QH's interaction is questionable, and I'd put him and shin as aligned. That's what I was trying to get out, but didn't articulate well.
1)I see. That's a better explanation than simply a Grape reaction to Vaimes being pressured means the two of them aren't a team.
2)A bit. You highlighted two players in each scenario and started with a team so my mind came to the conclusion that's what you were going for. You also end with a team scenario so it pushes that you're looking for a team more instead of lone mafia.
3)I see. I will have to look further at their interactions under these assumptions. Though currently not getting a town opinion/vibe from Vaimes.
Roger, I think you're quite mistaken about the 0 to 100 comment. I directed that to Vaimes ABOUT shin in 71. Shin is using the same phrase, but I think you need to re-read that interaction.
Interesting. I like you. Moving you to the town column. I hadn't really thought about it in that way.
I wasn't really trying to, give anyone a pass. I just wanted to share my thought process in the beginning. Obviously it's going to change. It's entirely possible that the entire scum team didn't post actively when the game started. In that case, I'm still pretty set on AG, at least until I get more from him. I'd like an answer from terry as well.
It's definitely more harmful late game. Your list is still quite large, so the possibility of excluding scum is lower + by excluding the less-than-actives, you're not attempting to pocket active players. That being said, your confidence in #237 about flavor not being alignment indicative is kind of a town tell. Or maybe you got a good guy and you're scum, who knows :3
So you have a specific character name attached to your role? Interesting. That is something to make note of. While I can understand your reasons for asking about it, focusing on the SK can be a tactic to shift suspicion and increase doubt within the town. With more enemies there are less allies and one has to be more careful with who they trust. That was my concern along with reminding you that flavor does not play a significant role in this game.
O___O
...Is that not normal?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you.
WG sounds pretty town. Not exactly certain what he sees as scummy from Vaimes, but his tone is townie.
AG, I know this game is off to a slow start, but how about some why's. Why is WG pretty town? Tone? You can do better. I don't want to mislynch you again, so do some splaining.
Terry, can you explain why you're worried about mislynching AG?
Because we mislynched him in Day 1 in Mistborn, the only other game I have played on here.
1. AtheistGod (Neutral)-Not really enough to go by to figure out any sort of motive/Alignment
2. Grapefruit21 (Town)- Just from his interactions with vaimes and me I believe he is town atleast from the first 4 pages, time may change that.
3. kpaca (Town) - Like I said in a recent post he's more neutral/town lean than anything, his town read on me doesnt feel as sloppy as others make it out to be, honestly he's prob just noticecd something that others haven't.
4. Mindreaver (Neutral)- You come off as neutral for me for the same reason as QH but i don't know you as a player I just can't get a read off of you at all.
5. Quickhoodies (Neutral)-With his big posts and knowledge of the kind of player he is I honestly can't get anything from his posts.
6. RE1031(Scum Lean)- Your leaning way to onto just for my particular liking, I feel as though scum would normally just to pocket those who they are friends with and tho we aren't voting together it seems like you really like talking about me my DC buddy.
7. Roger Sherman(Neutral)-Not really enough to go by to figure out any sort of motive/Alignment
8. shadowlancerx (Scum Lean)-You seemed to be white knighting me alot which i found weird and i only noticed now after i back read, also you focused alot of your early posts on Kpaca, seem's like you were eager to jump on a person you could put alot of eyes on.
10. TheRealStinkyJoeTerry (Town)- This prob very biased but his entrance alone screams town motivated and a town player
11. Vaimes (Town/Scum)- Our interaction states 1 thing either I'm scum or your scum, but I don't think either is true your reaction towards me states that your town. Only reason i put the scum part is because other feel as though that is what makes you a scumlean.
12. Wheat_Grinder (town)- I believe you are hands down town just from your interactions with the other players.
After tomorrow ill prob reread all of vaimes post so i can get a proper read on him, same goes for the others i tagged as scum or scum lean.
AM I the only one or does this whole post just read Fence ALL. I know it's early, but what's the point?
Mod Speccing MR as town with his very vague flavor claim (#237). I'm a bad guy in flavor too, but town in alignment. This can be revoked, but for now I'm rolling with it.
WG sounds pretty town. Not exactly certain what he sees as scummy from Vaimes, but his tone is townie.
AG, I know this game is off to a slow start, but how about some why's. Why is WG pretty town? Tone? You can do better. I don't want to mislynch you again, so do some splaining.
Terry, can you explain why you're worried about mislynching AG?
Because we mislynched him in Day 1 in Mistborn, the only other game I have played on here.
Okay the reason I was asking was specifically because you can read your original comment two ways. Either A) you were talking about that game that I actually got an AG mislynch and you didn't want to fall for something like that again or B) You know AG is a mislynch, this game. Shadow might have given you the answer, but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that this wasn't a slip, and that you don't actually know AGs alignment here.
Roger, I think you're quite mistaken about the 0 to 100 comment. I directed that to Vaimes ABOUT shin in 71. Shin is using the same phrase, but I think you need to re-read that interaction.
I went and re-read the interaction, and that post is just a convoluted mess to me. The 0 to 100 comment could work for either of them depending. Shinichi went from being laid back to challenging the town read of Grape, and Vaimes has been intense in his approach since the start. But that's not the main issue. The format of the post doesn't lean toward you addressing Vaimes, at least in the second half.
"I mean, that's what struck me about you"
It seemed like you used "you" here instead of "him" to refer to Shin. This was right after pinging Shin and asking about his history. But I can also sorta see this being a question you popped into the middle of your paragraphs, but it signifies a leap in thought. If you were referring to Vaimes with the "you" then the sentence doesn't make sense. You complained of Shin's lack of conviction, but then Vaimes has too much conviction. It's fine to suspect both extremes, but that sentence implies that the same behavior tipped you off to Vaimes which isn't the case. You suspected Shin of to little and Vaimes of too much, but one does not lead to the other, they're the ends to a spectrum of the same idea.
If anything it just strikes me as a sign of faulty/weak reasoning or a post spliced together.
Or at least, I'm fairly confident nobody would have interpreted "Shinichi isn't scummy" as "Shinichi is town" in that scenario.
@CANTRIP: Please prod or replace this slot.
so I am, I am asking you about specifically how you feel about your "Wagon" and the Kpaca/WG stuff. Because I'd like to hear if I'm totally off base with those two.
As far as Sinichi, he's gonna talk himself right into a noose if he's scum. And if not, I think he either deserves to fool me through sheer effort or he's town. Either way, I'm content to let him continue on as he is. Pressure there doesn't help. I would like to see more pressure on QH, but AG's entrance and his latest post, continue to alarm me more than anyone.
Sure:
What I see here is an effort to extend an olive branch instead of actually being concerned about a read even superficially, and...
This further feels like an attempt to pocket me.
And we'll have one more!
Why is Vaimes STILL talking about me if he thinks I'm town?? He seems very concerned about what I think, and is very interested in talking about it all the time. His other reads are extremely superficial, with no hard scum reads, which further drives home the fact that he *does not care* about hunting scum right now. He only cares about currying favor from me.
There was another game that I don't recall offhand. I've played with Vaimes at least twice.
In what universe does not having a hard, no brakes, this guy is 100% mafia scumread = not caring about scumhunting?
I talked about you a little more because shadow asked me about my read on you. Did you miss his post? Do you think I have a crush on you and can't help myself?
Frankly, I don't care about you more or less than any other player in this game, nor have I gone out of my way to talk about you. I'm "pocketing" you about as much as I pocketed Grapefruit, which is to say I don't really want to lynch either of you and would appreciate the opportunity to discuss reads with people I don't think are mafia.
TBF i do get town read more often than scum read, but not in the early game. But if we compare this to a game on ms this would normally already be day 2, so technically its not strange that someone has a slight town read on me. The question that arises is do you scum read me? Or do u just question kpaca town read?
I mean if you town read them then obviously at the time you think they havent done or acting scummy am i wrong so come to the assumption?
What does this mean for his alignment though, I practically used to playing with trolls in my mafia games so doesnt really change my view unless its someone new that im playing with. The way I see it is if hes doing something unatural for a town aligned player then yes you should be wary, but nothing he's done feels that obvious something scum would say, if anything its possible hes a carefree townie.
Do you have any reads, Shinichi?
Sorry to cut out most of this post, but i have to agree with you here outside of myself im sure atleast 1 of these players are scum if not 2.
If it's 1 then im pretty positive one of the quiet one is partnered with a talker. Though this theory is completely invalid if 3 mafia are in this game but i feel as though its more likely 2 are involved.
I do, though mine are prob less indepth, ill finish catching up then i'll explain my reads.
I'll start off by saying i barely move my vote,unless it's to pursue a very strong scum read.
For now tho Unvote
I would say i am neutral on him still I can't really get a good read on him yet, if anything all my reads on players are very lacking cause not used to playing with any of you except the 4 I know.
*giggle*
I question the read, I don't scum read you (yet). Actually, my case on kpaca kind of assumed you were town; I didn't think he was defending you as partners, I thought he was pocketing you (softly). I thought I sensed a tonal change, but right now, you seem no different from town. In fact, while it may seem like your 1,2,3 reply about there being no reason to town read Grapefruit for asking for old games is scummy, I don't think scum would be that rejecting of an idea. Scum love going on tangents. For now, I'm going to treat you as town, but as always, this is prone to change.
TBF this line is quite accurate and happens more often than i wish it sadly
Short reply @Wheat I agree the read on you seems a bit fabricated, but I like the rest of his actions so I think he's town.
I saw Shadow's post. I saw your reply. I ignored that post because there was actually a reason for it.
I failed to see a convincing reason that you were so focused on saying you had nothing on me and weren't pursuing me, while also not pursuing anyone else.
I don't care that you don't have a balls to the wall scumread - I mentioned it because it would make more sense if you had one. I care that you're *not trying to hunt for one*.
2. Grapefruit21 (Town)- Just from his interactions with vaimes and me I believe he is town atleast from the first 4 pages, time may change that.
3. kpaca (Town) - Like I said in a recent post he's more neutral/town lean than anything, his town read on me doesnt feel as sloppy as others make it out to be, honestly he's prob just noticecd something that others haven't.
4. Mindreaver (Neutral)- You come off as neutral for me for the same reason as QH but i don't know you as a player I just can't get a read off of you at all.
5. Quickhoodies (Neutral)-With his big posts and knowledge of the kind of player he is I honestly can't get anything from his posts.
6. RE1031(Scum Lean)- Your leaning way to onto just for my particular liking, I feel as though scum would normally just to pocket those who they are friends with and tho we aren't voting together it seems like you really like talking about me my DC buddy.
7. Roger Sherman(Neutral)-Not really enough to go by to figure out any sort of motive/Alignment
8. shadowlancerx (Scum Lean)-You seemed to be white knighting me alot which i found weird and i only noticed now after i back read, also you focused alot of your early posts on Kpaca, seem's like you were eager to jump on a person you could put alot of eyes on.
10. TheRealStinkyJoeTerry (Town)- This prob very biased but his entrance alone screams town motivated and a town player
11. Vaimes (Town/Scum)- Our interaction states 1 thing either I'm scum or your scum, but I don't think either is true your reaction towards me states that your town. Only reason i put the scum part is because other feel as though that is what makes you a scumlean.
12. Wheat_Grinder (town)- I believe you are hands down town just from your interactions with the other players.
After tomorrow ill prob reread all of vaimes post so i can get a proper read on him, same goes for the others i tagged as scum or scum lean.
Cause now that i look back at it when i played a setup this small on mafia scum they were only 2 scum, so it's possible both games have a similar alignment setup.
Ngl I'm not a fan of narrowing down suspects like this. I think this is a scummy thing to do - it directs attention away from the person who makes the list and the people not in the list and gets the people in the list to be against each other. I've seen this before, although much later in the game. You can analyze interactions to theorize alignment, but listing? If Mindreaver is a townie, then this might just end up giving scum a free pass. If they're scum, then this list is actually quite manipulative. And I think it's working.
There have been very, very few games where I've 1) had a hard/definitive scumread, or 2) looked for one. I find people I believe to be town and shruglynch my way through everyone else with constant reevaluation. This is, has been, and for the foreseeable future, will always be true. I'm not going to change my playstyle just because you think I need to play a certain way to townread me.
As it is, I'm in the process of using Shinichi to figure out the game as best I can. If you want to sell me on him being town, since you were so sparse on your earlier explanation(s), feel free. Other people's reads haven't done it for me.
I thought you knew me better than that... ;-;
If you think I'm leaning onto you, it's only because you're the only one here I know.
As for other players, I'm finding Vaimes to be my strongest town read. He's actively defending others and himself. Half the time, votes are a result of failure to communicate with one another, but I feel he's helping clarify things. kpaca I have a inkling of suspicion to be jester. He's not worried at all, but he hasn't actually bothered defending himself? Terry's on and off vote on me I don't quite get, could be nothing, or could be scum who saw an opportunity but doesn't seem worth it now. Mindreaver I probably will have to take a closer look at, because his list, it bothers me.
I'm having a lot of trouble distinguishing players from each other. Hopefully through interactions I'll get a better feel.
I don't recall that playstyle from you. That said, I also don't mind being wrong. I'll reread Titanic Ultimatum soon. If you do play like that, then I'll reconsider the read. But if you don't play like that, it's the last nail in the coffin because it means you're trying to play like you think you do when you're town.
And, if it's truly your playstyle to not do anything and shruglynch...I'm disappointed. You should try harder than that.
In the meantime, as for Shinichi - there's a certain type of player who does scummy things without malice. It's the malice part that makes that sort of player actually scum.
My personal judgement is that it's flimsy because I see very little town motivation in his opening non-RVS posts.
Good times.
WG is actively engaged. He is more disinterested when he's scum.
I'll be addressing posts by page that strike my attention.
Page2
I don't quite understand the context of the second sentence. If this was something you were considering beforehand why the pressure on Shin? Mindraver mentions also on Page2 that you're a robot. #96 I assume this is as your very logical when playing, but this post doesn't seem to follow much. It looks more to me like something to do in RVS or to build a persona of working out conclusions among the others. Care to share your mindset during this time?
Why are you considering the flavor when it has no relevance to the game? Also you complain about the lack of content yet fail to suggest a means of remedy or try to prevent it. Why? It sounds like an excuse to not have an opinion.
This post comes off too defensive with the snark attached at the end. It seems a little too early for that if there truly was hardly anything to have faith in reads on.
I would wager they wouldn't be too pleased with how they positioned themselves considering Shin was being suspected early on. If they wanted to build a town read, then sure but that had yet to happen as of this post. How exactly would you tell if this were the case?
Page3
Why is everyone guilty for you? You seem to have conflicting thoughts in this post.
Page4
1)That seems like a rather weak reason to be comfortable a pair aren't aligned. What about Grape makes you think that he would take up for Vaimes?
2)I can see how these reasons would work for Kpaca and WG individually, but I'm not seeing how it relates to them being a team. Mafia doesn't have to be in sync with their strategies. Playing to your town meta early on in RVS is just as helpful as strong arming opinion and thought.
3)Care to elaborate? Just what exactly is it about their interactions? This doesn't really speak of your thought processes, and more so to the general opinion.
Page5
The same reasons they mis-lynched them in the past?
How about trying to get a pinpoint read on the four you know then? Or are you afraid we'll use our meta to fool you?
I was under a similar impression when I first read the post despite agreeing with it. Though they seemed to not really do anything with it. Just set it out there.
How many 12 player games have you played in, and how many had 2 scum? Maybe just a site by site difference, but all of the 12 player setups that follow traditional Mafia rules that I've seen use 3. You're going to have to delve into this one a bit more. What did he notice? I'm sorry, what? This is blatantly false.
Vote Shinichi
Anyone townreading Shinichi, please go back and read his read wall, it's a mess.
Like sure, a couple people have said he gets scum read regardless, but that read walls screams "keep options open."
I wasn't really trying to, give anyone a pass. I just wanted to share my thought process in the beginning. Obviously it's going to change. It's entirely possible that the entire scum team didn't post actively when the game started. In that case, I'm still pretty set on AG, at least until I get more from him. I'd like an answer from terry as well.
Quick thoughts on this most recent page town + for RE, Mind, and Shadow
Scum + for Roger and Shinichi.
Wheat and Vaimes highly unlikely to be (knowingly) aligned.
I keep forgetting AG is in the game, but I also don't want to lynch him again D1 for lack of presence. Burned me before.
Not willing to lynch Vaimes, Shadow, RE, or Mind at this stage.
V/LA heads up: I will be on a 18 hour flight on my tuesday the 20th (currently thursday night here) and my access will be spotty for the couple of days after that, but I will be making an effort to be engaged.
The interesting part of this for me, is that you are coming after me complaining about content without adding any. Of course, my vote on Vaimes certainly added conversation, as did my criticism of QH. Both were attempts that remedying the situation. I've been added thoughts this whole time, and following up, so I think this argument is an empty one. I'm a little surprised you didn't say the same things regarding Terry, AG, or QH. Also, I've got plenty of opinions
I thought the same here. It was too defensive. Good observation. Thinking that you and Vaimes aren't scum together at the very least.
I don't quite understand what you mean here. I'm saying that Vaimes and Grape had positioned themselves rather well, as is evidenced with Shadow's posts (where they align "organically") and AG's entry post (where we says he townreads both Vaimes and Grape). I think they were considered, at the time, to be the most townie posters, specifically by going after Shin. The test here, was to see if Vaimes and Grape would both act in concert when confronted. Grape seemed thoughtful, and Vaimes seemed defensive. I would have expected Grape to have defended his buddy in that situation.
1) I do think that if Grape and Vaimes were scum together, then the plan was to mislynch shin, or at least be seen to go after a somewhat scummy target early and build towncred. I think in that scenario, the response to "Vaimes is scum" is Vaimes to say "no I'm not" and Grape to say "I don't think so, he's so town". This isn't something I'm married to. Grape could conceivably be a much better player than I am (spoiler, he is), but that's just WIFOM. I'm going to trust, for now, that they aren't aligned. That doesn't clear Vaimes, but it does make me feel a lot better about my Grape read.
2) I probably should have been clearer. I don't think WG and Kpaca are a team. I think they are acting in a similar way, and this scenario is more of a lone-scum-in-my-list-of-six scenario. Because if Vaimes/Grape/Shin are all town, I have to look at those who are keeping up post count without doing anything. QH and kpaca do fit that pattern, but with no agenda I can see. That's what this is all about.
3) So the world here is that Vaimes and Grape are town, and have genuinely caught Shin. In that case, I think QH's interaction is questionable, and I'd put him and shin as aligned. That's what I was trying to get out, but didn't articulate well.
I want Terry to respond.
Regarding AG, to me he's one you kind of just let alone for a day and see what he does. I'm not willing to wagon him based on the low impact argument.
So yeah, he could be today's lynch, IFF he doesn't respond to these prompts. It's the only way to make sure the pressure means anything. Giving him a "wait till Day 2 at least" pass, doesn't help.
Do not misunderstand me, I have no room to complain of lack of content. I was more so drawing attention to your lack of commitment to your stance. You really didn't seem like someone aggravated by the lack of content and who was willing to change it in order to help town forward. It was simply a small grievance you had for one reason or another. Also consider the question was made at the time of reading it. I won't deny you've added to the discussions so far, but I'll need to further judge those posts again as my memory of last night is hazy.
Strange. This has nothing to do with the post that I quoted. Mind you I can understand you forgetting or not recognizing it from the portion I quoted alone. But the 0 to 100 comment was specifically aimed at Shinichi and no one else. He even answers it here. #114.
#95
Care to answer it again? I do not see how Vaimes and Grape relate to a post directed at Shinichi and discussing your view on him.
1)I see. That's a better explanation than simply a Grape reaction to Vaimes being pressured means the two of them aren't a team.
2)A bit. You highlighted two players in each scenario and started with a team so my mind came to the conclusion that's what you were going for. You also end with a team scenario so it pushes that you're looking for a team more instead of lone mafia.
3)I see. I will have to look further at their interactions under these assumptions. Though currently not getting a town opinion/vibe from Vaimes.
It's definitely more harmful late game. Your list is still quite large, so the possibility of excluding scum is lower + by excluding the less-than-actives, you're not attempting to pocket active players. That being said, your confidence in #237 about flavor not being alignment indicative is kind of a town tell. Or maybe you got a good guy and you're scum, who knows :3
O___O
...Is that not normal?
"I mean, that's what struck me about you"
It seemed like you used "you" here instead of "him" to refer to Shin. This was right after pinging Shin and asking about his history. But I can also sorta see this being a question you popped into the middle of your paragraphs, but it signifies a leap in thought. If you were referring to Vaimes with the "you" then the sentence doesn't make sense. You complained of Shin's lack of conviction, but then Vaimes has too much conviction. It's fine to suspect both extremes, but that sentence implies that the same behavior tipped you off to Vaimes which isn't the case. You suspected Shin of to little and Vaimes of too much, but one does not lead to the other, they're the ends to a spectrum of the same idea.
If anything it just strikes me as a sign of faulty/weak reasoning or a post spliced together.
From the film.