@Lng: in no world ever are you nk tonight. Just no. The fact that you'd even phrase that question in that way makes me feel good voting you when the time comes.
@Terry, my point is to compare REs thoughts on different people. I could also say, "Pretend you get a magical cop shot and you found I was confirmed town". Whatever. My point is to get RE to compare others that aren't me, to share her beliefs. Her comment on possibly voting Shadow is givjng me (slight) pause.
Also, I don't see why you think a hypothetical case is scummy. *shrug*
@Terry, my point is to compare REs thoughts on different people. I could also say, "Pretend you get a magical cop shot and you found I was confirmed town". Whatever. My point is to get RE to compare others that aren't me, to share her beliefs. Her comment on possibly voting Shadow is givjng me (slight) pause.
Also, I don't see why you think a hypothetical case is scummy. *shrug*
Because you are subliminally planting ideas that are ridiculous.
I stand by the fact that I don't think Shadow and Lng and be on a scum team with QH, too much PR for scum not enough for town. So we either have AG/LNG handing out shots as scum to ONLY town, or we have Town AG/LNG handing out shots at their best discretion.
Now let's plug in who shadow targeted when handed the shots. Proph and Vaimes. If AG/LNG is town handing out shots, shadow is scum, targeting Proph and Vaimes, making Proph town (Shadow doesn't use that shot on a teammate because it does no good to the scum team). That makes Proph and LNG the town team. I think this is all I need.
If AG/LNG are scum only handing out shots to town, we have no concrete data, but it is a stretch to think AG/LNG's ability has a restriction on it that they can only hand out shots to town. On top of that the targets seem pretty logical from a AG/LNG!town perspective.
Now plug in Shadow's targets as a neighborizer assuming that the scum team is him & RE and AG/LNG. He chatted with Proph, Grape Fruit and Me. It doesn't conflict.
The QH vs. Proph fight works in this scenario, the LNG vs. RE fight works in this scenario.
RE is scum in two of the three real possibilities on the scum teams.
Terry, what subliminal idea am I trying to plant? To get myself NK'd?
That you're going to be night killed tonight, which implies you are town. Right now, I'm leaning that you are, but it made me uncomfortable seeing what you did.
@Terry, I'm fine with just saying outright I am town, if that makes you feel better. I don't think I'll be the NK no, but it's faster than saying something like, "Ok pretend you had a one time cop shot and you shot at me and you found I was confirmed town and for some reason you didn't tell the rest of town".
@Terry, I'm fine with just saying outright I am town, if that makes you feel better. I don't think I'll be the NK no, but it's faster than saying something like, "Ok pretend you had a one time cop shot and you shot at me and you found I was confirmed town and for some reason you didn't tell the rest of town".
Why is it about making me feel better. I want you to be town, it doesn't make me feel better to hear you just "say" it. Can you do that? Can you just "be" town please. Thanks.
Well sure, I'm trying to do that obviously. But RE and Proph have been viewing me as scum, and I'd like to get them out of that if they could, to look at other people. As someone who is pretty tunneled on a RE/Shadow team myself, I know I have a hard time breaking out of that viewpoint without impetus at times.
What do you think of RE behaviorally? You're looking at it from a mechanical standpoint, sure, but what do you think of QH's interactions with RE? What do you think of RE's play behaviorally?
I'm at the point where I'm calling Terry town. If he and I are both alive tomorrow then I revisit this, but I feel comfortable locking him in today. He has had some pretty major town indicators, as well as being darn convincing in our chat.
I'm pretty set on scum having 2 PRs, though I'm ever so slightly tinfoiling the idea that Lingerer could be town in a world where his role is meant to catch fake claims, but that seems too strong for town. So let's go with 2 PRs, meaning Lingerer (from my pov) is close to mechanically lock scum. I know, mechanics can be flawed, but I'm not seeing many options for a flaw here.
Behaviorally, looking back at AG, there is no meat to his thought process, which I've seen from AG as both alignments, though as town he shows up to actually participate eventually. Lingerer has done a good job with the slot; but a lot of his process is hypotheticals and doesn't feel overly fleshed out. Also this:
Her [RE's] comment on possibly voting Shadow is giving me (slight) pause.
Gives me the creeps. I'm not sure how to read it other than "The person I'm trying to push the lynch on has said they'd vote a townie, let's encourage that."
Between RE and Proph, Proph makes more sense as a partner. His presence in our chat was nothing to write home about, he's not seemed consistent with his reads, and kpaca was super scummy. Top that onto him shadily misconstruing posts and outright ignoring my questions to him today despite saying he was in my iso, I'm most sold on him being third scum.
RE, if I'm right and you're town, I really need you to not place a vote on me just because. If you really think I'm scum, then actually get people to put down their thoughts on the matter. An agree upon lynch with [false] justification that I can at least fight against would be much less disappointing than being quick hammered.
Besides, who even is my partner in this scenario?
@Lingerer: In the unlikely event that you're town, I need you to show me why, or we are going to lose.
I made a solid post on #3069, can I get feedback? I seriously am ready to vote RE right now. The only reason I didn't was because it was actually RE's list I started working off.
Terry: I think Lingerer is way more likely to be scum, and the team that makes the most sense with RE is with Lingerer anyway. Like say what you want about bussing, but it's a thing that wins games.
From this basically, but I understand how I could misread it.
If you think I'm scum then why have you made no attempt to interact or engage with me? Like I'm literally Ctrl-Fing "Proph" in your first page ISO and all I see are 7 mentions.
Also shadow if you could pick one thing you did this game that makes you town this game, what would it be? Other people can answer this question if they want.
Me not answering your questions? Tell me what questions I haven't answered. In fact, I think YOU haven't been answering my questions (see the above).
If you think I'm scum then why have you made no attempt to interact or engage with me? Like I'm literally Ctrl-Fing "Proph" in your first page ISO and all I see are 7 mentions.
Also shadow if you could pick one thing you did this game that makes you town this game, what would it be? Other people can answer this question if they want.
Me not answering your questions? Tell me what questions I haven't answered. In fact, I think YOU haven't been answering my questions (see the above).
Also I'm here and finishing up my reread.
This was my point, you made that post saying I wasn't engaging you but only a few posts above it I asked you:
@Proph: Why does your wagon specifically require one of Lingerer or I to be scum? It was a CFD attempt off of one townie onto (from your pov) another townie. What makes you think scum didn't sit back and let a no lynch happen?
So basically the reason why is because I don't think scum's goal is to no lynch. No lynch is nice for the scum, sure, since they get to snipe a townie for free, but I think the scum are always looking to mislynch, especially because this is a 12 player game and the town no lynching doesn't change the number of mislynches the scum have to get. Considering that it was a CFD attempt from one townie to another I think the scum in this case (you) just saw a mislynch in the water and decided to go for it, knowing that they would receive little flak for it because it was a CFD attempt.
@shadow
What makes you think I am town? And when did you start thinking this?
Idk who your partner is. And honestly, I agree that post from LnG was creepy. In my mind, it's between you and LnG. Don't think I'm voting Proph or Terry today.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you.
@shadow
What makes you think I am town? And when did you start thinking this?
Idk who your partner is. And honestly, I agree that post from LnG was creepy. In my mind, it's between you and LnG. Don't think I'm voting Proph or Terry today.
I think you're town because I think Lingerer and Proph are scum. If we're both alive tomorrow we can cross that bridge then, but I'm pretty sure a Lingerer lynch ends with me getting NK'd because despite what anyone wants to push, that would be a far too weak town. Of course, there's always leaving me alive just for the WIFOM -_-
@Proph: I just don't buy that. Like, maybe you believe that, but to use it as a mechanical reason for someone to be scum seems disingenuous.
I understand the Wheat flip might have changed your mind on everything and that you wanted to look at AG after the town Wheat reveal, but I thought you agreed with my reasoning yesterDay that AG is town. Pretty sure I've seen you disreguard the bolded as only a very trivial possibility.
This is some pushiness on behalf of QH for EL to accept that AG is town. But still, though, I don't know if this is QH trying to whiteknight AG because he knows that AG is town, or if he's trying to protect a buddy.
It feels like the way QH treated GF and I he was trying to push mislynches, which means that he was probably protecting his buddies, but I am not 100% certain on that.
Quote from QH »
I don't know of Terry's history as mafia and if he's a cunning soul, but the Town Vanilla/Vanilla Town attempt is a clever one and I'm not sure there would be a use for scum to go that far.
In comparison to the above quote this one feels like he knows that he's referring to a townie. "I'm not sure if there would be a use for scum to go that far" is the line I'm looking at.
So actually I just remembered that QH was also pushing on Wheat AND Shinichi.
Quote from QH »
I never concluded anything about your alignment though, especially considering I'm open to Shinichi being scum, which means you would gain many town points, if such a thing exists.
So he was pushing on all villagers this game (Wheat, GF, and me) which means that he was likely trying to townread his buddies.
Quote from QH »
I'm not lending my vote to an AG lynch today. No-lynch does sound like the logical move so I might have to hold off on Proph. I'll go into respectable details about my reads soon.
Still defending AG.
Quote from QH »
About the shadow-Shinichi alignment problem. I think I've said this before, but I'm really reluctant to base my reads on that. I'd rather focus on their posts, ya know? I'd like to take the easy route and say shadow is likely scum, but we all know that's not fair at all, right? A neighborizer can be scum, sure, but shadow's posts have mostly been townie to me and the problem I had with him on D1 has disappeared.
D I S T A N C I N G
Quote from QH »
I'm town, AG is my protégé, Vaimes is town, Shinichi is town, shadow and RE I'm willing to argue that they're town, I like EL and Terry for their effort.
OK so QH's two buddies are in here.
Does QH flat out say that his buddy is his protege? That's what's driving me in for a loop at the moment. Also: Does he just put his two scumbuddies in his "I'm willing to argue that they're town" pile? Man, QH is taking a lot of unorthodox mini-interactions and making my brain hurt.
Quote from QH »
And I townlock Terry for bringing up the topic and being in the same line of thinking as me , so I will be siding with him from now on, if he doesn't mind.
THIS comment right here makes Terry town though. QH was really buddying up to Terry during the last Day he was alive. It could be WiFOM but he was already townreading Terry prior to it and he just went further into the buddying.
Quote from QH »
Would you vote with me, Terry?
Yeeeaah Terry is just town.
--
OK so I admit that one thing that has been weighing on my mind is that if LnG was scum I would expect him to come out, guns ablazing, at me, especially since he was setting up some suspicion of me Yesterday. The fact that he isn't has kind of weirded me out, which means that he's either town and I'll be an idiot for lynching him or he's scum trying to pocket me. The real question is, why would he as scum box himself in my townreading me, when he would have just pushed me endlessly? Am I getting into a WiFOM loop here?
--
Quote from QH »
I've been thinking about who Proph and Grape's teammate could be and it just kind of jumped at me that RE is a good candidate. Wasn't he scumreading Proph not too long ago? I missed his reasoning (will get to reading it soon) behind that switch in scumreads but I hope it's good. This LyLo situation where I'm the preferred lynch sounds like an okay time to get to townreading Proph and getting rid of me for once and for all. I might need to ISO them because their slot is too unclear for me at the moment. Plus I kinda liked RE at some point, I should make up my mind by rereading him, but it's just that he might work with Proph and Grape better than the others.
...except that Proph and RE are vanilla, which would make the game quite weird. For all we know Grape might have a good PR to counterbalance our line-up of weak-type PRs, but I wouldn't bet on that. I think RE wasn't checked? I forgot whether he claimed before AG though, this could be worth looking into. I'm giving this a pause for now as I want to focus on Proph and Grape, but I still need to forge a good scumteam in my head before this lynch.
So this is QH's really first major interaction or so with RE and my brain is too tired to process what this post means :/
So deadline is in like, in 17 hours or so if I'm not mistaken?
I'll be around all day tomorrow to hash it out with you guys. I need to find ONE town out of LnG/RE/shadow. If Terry is scum then gg to him; I'd be very surprised if he was tbh. If he is then congrats to QH for laying down the best anti spew possible.
What do you think of RE behaviorally? You're looking at it from a mechanical standpoint, sure, but what do you think of QH's interactions with RE? What do you think of RE's play behaviorally?
Also what do you think about shadow?
Dude, I've been all over Re all game behaviorly. Way before mechanics even were a factor.
@shadow
What makes you think I am town? And when did you start thinking this?
Idk who your partner is. And honestly, I agree that post from LnG was creepy. In my mind, it's between you and LnG. Don't think I'm voting Proph or Terry today.
ummm, you or Proph or me basically have to be scum. I know it's not me you SHOULD know it's not you, but you are scum so that thought didn't cross your mind. I'm ready
I meant more like, what were your thoughts on RE's more recent posts. Also you said that you were going to look at QH's interactions with RE - did anything come out of that?
@shadow
What makes you think I am town? And when did you start thinking this?
Idk who your partner is. And honestly, I agree that post from LnG was creepy. In my mind, it's between you and LnG. Don't think I'm voting Proph or Terry today.
ummm, you or Proph or me basically have to be scum. I know it's not me you SHOULD know it's not you, but you are scum so that thought didn't cross your mind. I'm ready
1. I don't know if you're town. Not 100% anyway.
2. I don't want to rely on mechanics to determine who I will lynch.
3. Why "or"? Why not "and"?
4. Go for it. Also, why are you so convinced that one of the VTs have to be scum?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you.
@shadow
What makes you think I am town? And when did you start thinking this?
Idk who your partner is. And honestly, I agree that post from LnG was creepy. In my mind, it's between you and LnG. Don't think I'm voting Proph or Terry today.
ummm, you or Proph or me basically have to be scum. I know it's not me you SHOULD know it's not you, but you are scum so that thought didn't cross your mind. I'm ready
@everyone
I need to know if it is just me or does this make no sense?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you.
I'm in class right now so I'll put up a post summarizing all of my thoughts (I'm thinking PRO/CON list) in a couple of hours.
Also RE, I think Terry was referring to the situation when he thinks that in 2/3 scenarios he thinks that you are scum but I don't understand that post out of context.
@shadow
What makes you think I am town? And when did you start thinking this?
Idk who your partner is. And honestly, I agree that post from LnG was creepy. In my mind, it's between you and LnG. Don't think I'm voting Proph or Terry today.
ummm, you or Proph or me basically have to be scum. I know it's not me you SHOULD know it's not you, but you are scum so that thought didn't cross your mind. I'm ready
1. I don't know if you're town. Not 100% anyway.
2. I don't want to rely on mechanics to determine who I will lynch.
3. Why "or"? Why not "and"?
4. Go for it. Also, why are you so convinced that one of the VTs have to be scum?
1. You should know I'm town by now.
2. Mechanics are part of the game. Mechanics like targeting patterns, PR balance and voting. You can't deny it.
3. There is no way scum is QH and two goons. I'm willing to bet the game on it. There can only be 1 VT claim that's actually scum.
4. See above
Everything points to the two possible scum teams being Proph/Lng or Shadow/RE. Shadow's targeting makes me think he has to be scum with RE. However, RE is scum in two of the three possible scenarios I see, so I'm going to Vote RE. We lose if we don't Lynch.
I'm in class right now so I'll put up a post summarizing all of my thoughts (I'm thinking PRO/CON list) in a couple of hours.
Also RE, I think Terry was referring to the situation when he thinks that in 2/3 scenarios he thinks that you are scum but I don't understand that post out of context.
The whole problem with that is Shadow and AG's targeting. If LNG if scum, he targeted only town. Do you think that was built into LNG's role? That he can only target town?
If Terry's town, and there's two scum, then we've lost.
I'm going to wait to see if anyone hammers. If nobody does, then I'll vote Terry. But you can imagine my vote on shadow.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you.
If Terry's town, and there's two scum, then we've lost.
I'm going to wait to see if anyone hammers. If nobody does, then I'll vote Terry. But you can imagine my vote on shadow.
A) Both or one of you was town, and scum might be enticed to killing whichever was town to prevent them using the shot.
B) Both of you were scum, in which case I was giving it to Terry anyways. (Who I figured would target GF to determine bulletproofedness.)
RE, assume Shadow gets lynched and flips scum, then I get NK'd. Do you think the last scum is Terry or Proph in that situation, and why?
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
@Lng: in no world ever are you nk tonight. Just no. The fact that you'd even phrase that question in that way makes me feel good voting you when the time comes.
Also, I don't see why you think a hypothetical case is scummy. *shrug*
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Very busy couple of days for me.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
It's just that rereading is taking so long because I have class and I'm in another, faster mafia game
I want to make a decision by tonight though.
OK immediately after I finish my project I am putting as much work as I can in this game
Also what do you think about shadow?
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
I'm at the point where I'm calling Terry town. If he and I are both alive tomorrow then I revisit this, but I feel comfortable locking him in today. He has had some pretty major town indicators, as well as being darn convincing in our chat.
I'm pretty set on scum having 2 PRs, though I'm ever so slightly tinfoiling the idea that Lingerer could be town in a world where his role is meant to catch fake claims, but that seems too strong for town. So let's go with 2 PRs, meaning Lingerer (from my pov) is close to mechanically lock scum. I know, mechanics can be flawed, but I'm not seeing many options for a flaw here.
Behaviorally, looking back at AG, there is no meat to his thought process, which I've seen from AG as both alignments, though as town he shows up to actually participate eventually. Lingerer has done a good job with the slot; but a lot of his process is hypotheticals and doesn't feel overly fleshed out. Also this: Gives me the creeps. I'm not sure how to read it other than "The person I'm trying to push the lynch on has said they'd vote a townie, let's encourage that."
Between RE and Proph, Proph makes more sense as a partner. His presence in our chat was nothing to write home about, he's not seemed consistent with his reads, and kpaca was super scummy. Top that onto him shadily misconstruing posts and outright ignoring my questions to him today despite saying he was in my iso, I'm most sold on him being third scum.
RE, if I'm right and you're town, I really need you to not place a vote on me just because. If you really think I'm scum, then actually get people to put down their thoughts on the matter. An agree upon lynch with [false] justification that I can at least fight against would be much less disappointing than being quick hammered.
Besides, who even is my partner in this scenario?
@Lingerer: In the unlikely event that you're town, I need you to show me why, or we are going to lose.
Me not answering your questions? Tell me what questions I haven't answered. In fact, I think YOU haven't been answering my questions (see the above).
Also I'm here and finishing up my reread.
So basically the reason why is because I don't think scum's goal is to no lynch. No lynch is nice for the scum, sure, since they get to snipe a townie for free, but I think the scum are always looking to mislynch, especially because this is a 12 player game and the town no lynching doesn't change the number of mislynches the scum have to get. Considering that it was a CFD attempt from one townie to another I think the scum in this case (you) just saw a mislynch in the water and decided to go for it, knowing that they would receive little flak for it because it was a CFD attempt.
What makes you think I am town? And when did you start thinking this?
Idk who your partner is. And honestly, I agree that post from LnG was creepy. In my mind, it's between you and LnG. Don't think I'm voting Proph or Terry today.
@Proph: I just don't buy that. Like, maybe you believe that, but to use it as a mechanical reason for someone to be scum seems disingenuous.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
This is some pushiness on behalf of QH for EL to accept that AG is town. But still, though, I don't know if this is QH trying to whiteknight AG because he knows that AG is town, or if he's trying to protect a buddy.
It feels like the way QH treated GF and I he was trying to push mislynches, which means that he was probably protecting his buddies, but I am not 100% certain on that.
In comparison to the above quote this one feels like he knows that he's referring to a townie. "I'm not sure if there would be a use for scum to go that far" is the line I'm looking at.
So actually I just remembered that QH was also pushing on Wheat AND Shinichi.
So he was pushing on all villagers this game (Wheat, GF, and me) which means that he was likely trying to townread his buddies.
Still defending AG.
D I S T A N C I N G
OK so QH's two buddies are in here.
Does QH flat out say that his buddy is his protege? That's what's driving me in for a loop at the moment. Also: Does he just put his two scumbuddies in his "I'm willing to argue that they're town" pile? Man, QH is taking a lot of unorthodox mini-interactions and making my brain hurt.
THIS comment right here makes Terry town though. QH was really buddying up to Terry during the last Day he was alive. It could be WiFOM but he was already townreading Terry prior to it and he just went further into the buddying.
Yeeeaah Terry is just town.
--
OK so I admit that one thing that has been weighing on my mind is that if LnG was scum I would expect him to come out, guns ablazing, at me, especially since he was setting up some suspicion of me Yesterday. The fact that he isn't has kind of weirded me out, which means that he's either town and I'll be an idiot for lynching him or he's scum trying to pocket me. The real question is, why would he as scum box himself in my townreading me, when he would have just pushed me endlessly? Am I getting into a WiFOM loop here?
--
So this is QH's really first major interaction or so with RE and my brain is too tired to process what this post means :/
I'll be around all day tomorrow to hash it out with you guys. I need to find ONE town out of LnG/RE/shadow. If Terry is scum then gg to him; I'd be very surprised if he was tbh. If he is then congrats to QH for laying down the best anti spew possible.
What are your thoughts on shadow?
Let's figure it out tomorrow.
2. I don't want to rely on mechanics to determine who I will lynch.
3. Why "or"? Why not "and"?
4. Go for it. Also, why are you so convinced that one of the VTs have to be scum?
I need to know if it is just me or does this make no sense?
I'm in class right now so I'll put up a post summarizing all of my thoughts (I'm thinking PRO/CON list) in a couple of hours.
Also RE, I think Terry was referring to the situation when he thinks that in 2/3 scenarios he thinks that you are scum but I don't understand that post out of context.
Terry, can you clarify who you intend to vote?
2. Mechanics are part of the game. Mechanics like targeting patterns, PR balance and voting. You can't deny it.
3. There is no way scum is QH and two goons. I'm willing to bet the game on it. There can only be 1 VT claim that's actually scum.
4. See above
I want a chance to post my PRO/CON list before I vote once I'm out of class.
I'm going to wait to see if anyone hammers. If nobody does, then I'll vote Terry. But you can imagine my vote on shadow.