@Folza: When I say you're higher up on my list, I'm referring specifically to the rainbow wall I provided before. Town is at the top, scum at the bottom, so moving up means that I'm getting a bit more of a town read on you now (since you've actually given me something to work from to try and understand your thought processes). Not clearing you by any means, but at the very least I'm less inclined at this point to vote you before others.
@JulsSkogs: When you do get back, I would like to ask for your opinion on the possible Olli*** lynch. He definitely seems like possible lurker!scum, but at the same time I'm not getting nearly as much of a scum vibe off of him as I have been D_V or Audio. Action vs inaction, and such. You think it's worth it to focus on Olli***, or keep pushing on someone else?
@Ophidia: Welcome to the party! I look forward to hearing your take on things.
@King Torg: I'm reading it as either Audio is scum - him calling Folza out as scum for 'starting the reads list train' (despite the fact that I am the one who started it). Honestly, the biggest reason I haven't voted him up yet is because I feel D_V is also scum, and Audio is far less likely to accomplish anything given what we've seen of his playstyle.
I'd like to point out every single person scum reading me is doing so for "Reasons"
That's their actual case. They feel that I've done scummy things but don't make reference to a single thing
@D_V: I would like to point out that I went into great detail on why I'm scumreading you. I can't speak for others, but I detailed my reasons in #308 at your request, and responded to your arguments regarding those reasons in #319. (#329 is when you offered to replace out, so I understand why you did not provide any further response, and may not have gone over #319.)
OK, I read the last couple of pages, and it seems that there is a giant flame war between the previous player and DV
judging by D_V's actions in the flame war, especially the self vote thing, he is likely scum along with mogg and somebody else
Because:
1) He is a good enough player to figure out, in a series of interactions (basically the last 3 pages), that a player is town or scum. As my character is as EL claimed, vanilla town, D_V would have no reason to argue further with him and accuse him.
2) D_V, to me, is the kind of player who can vote himself in order to intimidate newer players. He has more of an incentive to do so as scum since he can effectively make voting him a harder decision.
3) D_V's t/s list is not the most appealing. I have no idea what his king torg thing is, and mogg's interaction with him is awkward at best. His quick switch to EL does not bode well either.
4) D_V is what i fear will be the random factor in this game. He is hard to get a solid read on, and this is the one chance I get to actually see pure scumminess from his posts.
Basically I trust El's reads because I know his alignment and D_v did very scummy things
Also ***g is null and audio is null
Rhand, blue and blood is lean town as of now, but all the people I see as town will change if D_v flip town.
I'd like to point out every single person scum reading me is doing so for "Reasons"
That's their actual case. They feel that I've done scummy things but don't make reference to a single thing
@D_V: I would like to point out that I went into great detail on why I'm scumreading you. I can't speak for others, but I detailed my reasons in #308 at your request, and responded to your arguments regarding those reasons in #319. (#329 is when you offered to replace out, so I understand why you did not provide any further response, and may not have gone over #319.)
You've given reasons not good ones, but the rest of the votes on my wagon are just I see DV as scummy because of "reasons, but never really say what any of those are"
I am in complete agreement. I would lynch Audio too, but if we hit town, that would be a no info lynch. D_V's constant defense of acting like there's no case against him makes him very likely to be scum.
I only still feel bad about lynching the receiving end of EL's misbehaviour :/
You argue that anti-town does not equate to scum. I'm contending that selecting an anti-town course of action, when courses of action are available that would be more obviously beneficial to the town, is absolutely a scumtell. Acting based on available information in a way that you believe to be supportive of the town is not in itself anti-town, but continuing to pursue such a course of action when additional information has been provided that shows you to be acting to the town's detriment is. I can attribute the initial mistakes to ignorance, but if someone continues to make those same mistakes after being presented with reasoning for why the behavior is to the town's detriment, I have to consider malice, either in their choice to ignore the information provided or in acknowledging the information and still choosing to act in a way that is clearly to the detriment of the town.
Wrong?
Like how do people find this an argument.
I can point to times I've self voted as town and did for blue. He ignores you guys ignore this/ How is this a compelling argument? Please lynch me on this. You ever say it ever again I'll quote this game. Its a stupid argument, you're wrong. I've proven you to be wrong, and yet you keep going.
I do thank you for providing your other points of concern regarding Mog, and elaborating on why you considered his pattern of posting without providing content different from that of others. I'm still uncertain how you came to the neutral-to-town lean on the others mentioned who were posting infrequently and without content, as I can't reconcile that as a townie behavior (neutral at best), and I feel that lurkers in general need to be considered just as much as the more active players to ensure that they don't slip through the cracks.
I've explained this time and time again.
Mog showed scum tells. This wasn't from inactivity.
The others only scum tell was the inactivity. Once again. How is this compelling?
Regarding your choice to lynch Lurker when you did, the concern is this: you said you felt that it didn't matter which one you lynched first, in both of your previous responses to me regarding the matter. But you then changed the vote anyway, without providing any indication of why. It was either an effort to placate me by providing an action with no reasoning behind it (when I was asking for the reasoning behind your previous action instead), a change in response to Audio's comment for you to get Lurker (which would be, IMO, a scummy move since you'd be changing based off of a player that already seems scummy, with no real impetus from him to change your mind besides 'let's get lurker'), a change made with reasoning that you refused to provide (in which case your comment to me just blowing off the vote on Torg over Lurker would be questionable, since if you have reasoning for the change it's not just voting one over the other), or a change made with no reasoning whatsoever (which would be scummy as well, as it would indicate you're just trying to push towards whoever you feel you can get traction on at the time).
How is this even a scum tell. I changed my vote. Are you really saying I changed my vote because you questioned it? LUL.
I'M NOT ******* READING TORG AS SCUM FOR LURKING. STOP.
You argue that anti-town does not equate to scum. I'm contending that selecting an anti-town course of action, when courses of action are available that would be more obviously beneficial to the town, is absolutely a scumtell. Acting based on available information in a way that you believe to be supportive of the town is not in itself anti-town, but continuing to pursue such a course of action when additional information has been provided that shows you to be acting to the town's detriment is. I can attribute the initial mistakes to ignorance, but if someone continues to make those same mistakes after being presented with reasoning for why the behavior is to the town's detriment, I have to consider malice, either in their choice to ignore the information provided or in acknowledging the information and still choosing to act in a way that is clearly to the detriment of the town.
Wrong?
Like how do people find this an argument.
I can point to times I've self voted as town and did for blue. He ignores you guys ignore this/ How is this a compelling argument? Please lynch me on this. You ever say it ever again I'll quote this game. Its a stupid argument, you're wrong. I've proven you to be wrong, and yet you keep going.
First, you didn't actually point me to times you've self-voted as town. The only time I'm aware of for that is in the current game. (Again, I don't go out of my way to look for other people's post patterns in other games.) Your only comment on the matter was that you self-voted to generate reads - which I still don't agree with doing, but that can be chalked up to a difference of opinion. At no point did you cite other examples of where you self-voted.
More importantly, the self-vote thing was not referenced anywhere in the part you quoted that you were responding to. The comments above are, in general, my explanation of why I feel a continued course of anti-town behavior is a scumtell. It's why I formed an initial scumread on Mograppler (pushing no-lynch after multiple people explained why it doesn't help) and Folza (refusal to defend self even in the face of accusations). It's why I cite your constant arguments of 'people too inexperienced to understand good/bad play' or 'more experienced player' in lieu of actual defenses as scumtells - I've explained already why simply citing your experience, or our inexperience, as a reason for an argument to be valid/invalid does not work. Experience doesn't stop people from making stupid mistakes. Inexperience doesn't stop people from coming up with good play. But if you intend to use superior experience as a justification for your actions, you have to support that with examples of where the things you're citing have worked before, because otherwise we have no reason to trust that experience.
I do thank you for providing your other points of concern regarding Mog, and elaborating on why you considered his pattern of posting without providing content different from that of others. I'm still uncertain how you came to the neutral-to-town lean on the others mentioned who were posting infrequently and without content, as I can't reconcile that as a townie behavior (neutral at best), and I feel that lurkers in general need to be considered just as much as the more active players to ensure that they don't slip through the cracks.
I've explained this time and time again.
Mog showed scum tells. This wasn't from inactivity.
The others only scum tell was the inactivity. Once again. How is this compelling?
Again, not responding to the argument here. The only reference to Mog was that I thanked you for pointing out why you felt his posting pattern was different enough to warrant the scumread. The actual concern is that you were reading other players who were lurking as neutral to town - I questioned why you seem willing to give lurkers in general a default town standing.
Regarding your choice to lynch Lurker when you did, the concern is this: you said you felt that it didn't matter which one you lynched first, in both of your previous responses to me regarding the matter. But you then changed the vote anyway, without providing any indication of why. It was either an effort to placate me by providing an action with no reasoning behind it (when I was asking for the reasoning behind your previous action instead), a change in response to Audio's comment for you to get Lurker (which would be, IMO, a scummy move since you'd be changing based off of a player that already seems scummy, with no real impetus from him to change your mind besides 'let's get lurker'), a change made with reasoning that you refused to provide (in which case your comment to me just blowing off the vote on Torg over Lurker would be questionable, since if you have reasoning for the change it's not just voting one over the other), or a change made with no reasoning whatsoever (which would be scummy as well, as it would indicate you're just trying to push towards whoever you feel you can get traction on at the time).
How is this even a scum tell. I changed my vote. Are you really saying I changed my vote because you questioned it? LUL.
I'M NOT ******* READING TORG AS SCUM FOR LURKING. STOP.
And that's the case on me.
Dear rhand. Please start playing.
And once more, you're ignoring the points I actually made. I cited the possibility of you changing the vote to placate me as one possibility - and pointed out that if that was the reason, the execution was poor, as I was never asking you to change the vote but instead to provide details as to why you had Torg above Lurker when you built far more of a case against Lurker. The other options were that you were responding to Audio prompting you to change your vote (#266), that you're intentionally hiding your reasons from us (and lied when you said there was no reason for you to vote one over the other), or that you didn't actually have a reason for the change (at which point, why make the change?). At no point was there a mention of you scumreading Torg for lurking (a bit confusing, perhaps, since the other player being referred to was EternalLurker, and I just use Lurker in reference to him), but the issue here was, and still is, that you aren't explaining your actions.
The 'not explaining your actions' part seems to be a theme here for you - you repeatedly try to fall back on the experience arguments in lieu of proof, as if you want the bulk of players in this newbie-dominated game to follow you implicitly. You refuse to provide an explanation of the reasoning driving your actions when directly asked, or even an explanation of why you feel elaborating on your reasoning would be detrimental to the town. You remain dismissive of any arguments provided against you, regardless of who is making the argument - and when pressed, you devolve into insulting the argument presented and offering a flat 'you're wrong'. And now, you make a show of addressing things that I considered to already be resolved when I made post #319 (the self-vote, the Mog read, and your reason for reading Torg as scum) instead of actually addressing the concerns I posed here (why would a continued anti-town behavior not be scummy, why should players who lurk and infrequently post with no content get a free townread, and why did you change your vote from Torg to EternalLurker when you did, and then flip back to Torg afterwards).
If you want to keep being evasive and/or dismissive, by all means, do so - I'll see what I can figure out from what you provide either way.
First, you didn't actually point me to times you've self-voted as town. The only time I'm aware of for that is in the current game. (Again, I don't go out of my way to look for other people's post patterns in other games.) Your only comment on the matter was that you self-voted to generate reads - which I still don't agree with doing, but that can be chalked up to a difference of opinion. At no point did you cite other examples of where you self-voted.
Regarding players folding to pressure, it's worth noting that my concerns with Folza have been, and still are, not that he simply bows to pressure, but that he makes no attempt to defend himself at all. If the person is town, then to bow to pressure with no defense attempted directly harms town both because it would eliminate a townie and because it casts suspicion on the people voting on them. If the person is scum, however, then simply saying nothing and allowing us to lynch them - particularly early on like this - could help the scum team by depriving us of any clues that could be used to try and ferret out other scum. This is why I consider bowing to pressure with no attempt at a defense to be a scum tell. And do note, it's specifically the lack of a defense of any kind that I'm concerned with. And yes, this is the only attack on Folza - why do you think that I've moved towards other targets that seem to be going out of their way to paint themselves as scum?
Uhh
No.
Folza isn't an experienced enough player to think that through. That's evident. He isn't trying to deny the town interactions.
Sunray said gg smile face. That seemed like they were done pretty quickly.
Ya'll need to get your heads out of your ass and realize self vote doesn't equal self lynch.
Trigger happy mafia is a game I've self voted before to much effect. Its not a newb play. The fact that you all think it is. Well that's noob.
Again, not responding to the argument here. The only reference to Mog was that I thanked you for pointing out why you felt his posting pattern was different enough to warrant the scumread. The actual concern is that you were reading other players who were lurking as neutral to town - I questioned why you seem willing to give lurkers in general a default town standing.
Ugh this is new player stuff.
I'm asking why you would give them a scum default setting.
You can't give a good reason. You're going to say "Blah blah anti-town" I'm going to go back to not scum arguments and you're going to ignore that again. Fact is anti-town isn't scum so its just a neutral maybe a town read. I can see either alignment lurking so its a null tell to me, add the new player stuff and its more likely town imo. I've said this at least 4 other times.
I felt that my Torg case is stronger. Look at my post 250.
What?
Did you not see the flow of the game for me to swap my vote to Lurker?
Like Jesus Christ. I think you read the thread. Anyone reading from the outside would get why I voted lurker.
I don't even understand what you're saying.
I've spent ample time examining multiple players entire posts. I've elaborated on why they are scum.
Frankly I don't even get the points your making. That should be pretty clear from how I'm answering. I don't even understand how any of this makes me scum or what you're even talking about. I'm lost. I don't even know what you think makes me scum.
First, you didn't actually point me to times you've self-voted as town. The only time I'm aware of for that is in the current game. (Again, I don't go out of my way to look for other people's post patterns in other games.) Your only comment on the matter was that you self-voted to generate reads - which I still don't agree with doing, but that can be chalked up to a difference of opinion. At no point did you cite other examples of where you self-voted.
Regarding players folding to pressure, it's worth noting that my concerns with Folza have been, and still are, not that he simply bows to pressure, but that he makes no attempt to defend himself at all. If the person is town, then to bow to pressure with no defense attempted directly harms town both because it would eliminate a townie and because it casts suspicion on the people voting on them. If the person is scum, however, then simply saying nothing and allowing us to lynch them - particularly early on like this - could help the scum team by depriving us of any clues that could be used to try and ferret out other scum. This is why I consider bowing to pressure with no attempt at a defense to be a scum tell. And do note, it's specifically the lack of a defense of any kind that I'm concerned with. And yes, this is the only attack on Folza - why do you think that I've moved towards other targets that seem to be going out of their way to paint themselves as scum?
Uhh
No.
Folza isn't an experienced enough player to think that through. That's evident. He isn't trying to deny the town interactions.
Sunray said gg smile face. That seemed like they were done pretty quickly.
Ya'll need to get your heads out of your ass and realize self vote doesn't equal self lynch.
Trigger happy mafia is a game I've self voted before to much effect. Its not a newb play. The fact that you all think it is. Well that's noob.
LIAR
So quick to dismiss it as a lie, when I've said nothing untrue - though perhaps additional clarification on my part would have been warranted, for which I apologize. I explicitly told you that I don't go out of my way to look for people's posting patterns in other games. It's 45 pages of a game that I have not read, and have no desire to read through in its entirety. You gave the game's name - you did not cite any specific instances where you self-voted. I'm not necessarily asking you to explain those instances (though I may need to, if you did not go into any detail regarding what you learned from the self-votes and how it was a benefit to town within that game), but I am asking you to give me a specific incident to examine - at least the page number for me to look on.
Again, not responding to the argument here. The only reference to Mog was that I thanked you for pointing out why you felt his posting pattern was different enough to warrant the scumread. The actual concern is that you were reading other players who were lurking as neutral to town - I questioned why you seem willing to give lurkers in general a default town standing.
Ugh this is new player stuff.
I'm asking why you would give them a scum default setting.
You can't give a good reason. You're going to say "Blah blah anti-town" I'm going to go back to not scum arguments and you're going to ignore that again. Fact is anti-town isn't scum so its just a neutral maybe a town read. I can see either alignment lurking so its a null tell to me, add the new player stuff and its more likely town imo. I've said this at least 4 other times.
I felt that my Torg case is stronger. Look at my post 250.
What?
Did you not see the flow of the game for me to swap my vote to Lurker?
Like Jesus Christ. I think you read the thread. Anyone reading from the outside would get why I voted lurker.
I don't even understand what you're saying.
I've spent ample time examining multiple players entire posts. I've elaborated on why they are scum.
Frankly I don't even get the points your making. That should be pretty clear from how I'm answering. I don't even understand how any of this makes me scum or what you're even talking about. I'm lost. I don't even know what you think makes me scum.
And once again, attempting to discredit arguments with the experience card - a common thread in your posts.
You're correct that the lurkers might not necessarily be able to be defaulted as scum. But if your read is neutral, you can call them neutral. You went out of your way to state them as town, though. You did not give them a neutral read, you gave them a town read, and now I am asking you again, as I was previously, to justify that town read on those players.
As for your case on EternalLurker vs Torg, you went out of your way to elucidate the several things you thought made Lurker scum in #234.
7. EternalLurker
I love eternal hes got it all imo.
First post vote a scum buddy? Check Second vote move to weak player and keep it there? Check. Set up speculation? Check. Defending himself or saying things that don't progress the game state? Check.
Talking about Flavor mechanics? Check. Voting another weak player? Check.
Any actual scum hunting noperino.
King Torg is particular scummy so I'll just over all of their posts right now.
Post 1 confirm
Post 2 Votes Sunray for silly reasons, but its RVS.
Post 3 Votes for a lurker(And lurks himself) CLASSIC, and reads mograppler as towny(Defense of scum mate). And defends his RVS vote(not good).
Post 4 Defends RVS vote again, ugh.
Post 5 Defends RVS vote AGAIN.
Post 6 I can't find anything to do. (I read this as scummy myself because town should be at least trying to town clear people, and scum hunt. Saying nothing to do reads as man I really want a wagon to start.)
Post 7 Literally a scum buddy slip.
Post 8 I'm going to express my opinions, WHAT opinions?
Post 9 Votes folza wagon for silly reasons. Says could be new player behavior and doesn't see it. Why? See his post 6 finally found a wagon to jump on as scum HYPE. I'd vote DV for what reasons? Cause others said so that's why. Hype wagon time.
Post 10 Literally worthless banter. Still thinks I'm scum. Never once did they ever read Mystic as scum. Ever. Find it I dare you.
This consists of his RVS and him offering requested explanations of his subsequent vote (2-5), him complaining about inactivity in the thread (6), a comment which I see as a simple joke made due to lack of content, but you somehow call a 'scum buddy slip' based on your read on Mog (7), and three posts that would all be debatable as scumtells (8-10). You nearly had as many different scumtells on Lurker as there were entire posts on Torg. Yet you first put Torg up (despite having given what many would argue as a stronger case on Lurker). Then you later said you didn't care who you lynch first, and promptly switched your vote to Lurker. This is inconsistent - if you believe you've got a stronger case on Torg, voting Lurker (who would subsequently be a less feasible lynch due to a weaker case) makes no sense. If you feel the case on each is equal, and don't care who goes first, then switching the vote from Torg to Lurker makes no sense. If you decided that your case on Lurker was stronger, then switching the vote back to Torg in #305 makes no sense. If you feel you've got a stronger case on one over the other, the sensible move is to push the stronger case, the one that you can offer more evidence to support, and use that to try and build both credibility in yourself and a stronger case on your other scumreads.
Lastly, I went into detail in #308 of what I considered to be scumtells from you. I don't believe I need to reiterate the same points, though if you want me to go over it again, I will do so.
That's funny because when I first called you scum, you called me town.
Have you ever thought I was town?
Have you ever once determined my alignment correctly?
What exactly do you find a compelling argument about me being scum?
I am in complete agreement. I would lynch Audio too, but if we hit town, that would be a no info lynch. D_V's constant defense of acting like there's no case against him makes him very likely to be scum.
I only still feel bad about lynching the receiving end of EL's misbehaviour :/
The same logic goes for lynching fuggingolli***. If we lynch him, he only posted like 4 times. I don't think that lynching him for EL's actions is bad, since it was EL that got the most 'evidence' out on him in the first place. Not lynching him because of that would be like not prosecuting a criminal because the interrogating officer was mean to him.
@ophidia Why would you think D_V got exposed?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"When I'm sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story"
-Barney Stinson
Day phases will last no longer than 3 weeks. The mod may choose to shorten this deadline based on activity. If time runs out without a lynch, the player with the most votes will be lynched. If two players are tied, the player who reached that number of votes first will be lynched.
You may NOT discuss this game anywhere but the game thread or a mod-sanctioned QuickTopic thread (for mentors and the scum).
Night phases will last no longer than 72 hours. If this time runs out, any players who haven't submitted their Night action (if applicable) will perform no action.
You must post once every 3 IRL days at minimum, or you will be prodded. Failure to respond after being prodded will result in you being replaced. Please post more often than once every 3 IRL days.
No editing your posts!
No liking posts.
The bolded section indicates that there will be a lynch at deadline, based on majority (with ties being resolved by who has the most votes at that time). Just to confirm, which applies?
Also, I'm seeing errors in the vote count.
The last vote I can find from Torg was post #176, where he votes for Folza. (Possible syntax error with bold tags.)
D_V voted last for King Torg in #305. (Vote counter may not have recognized because full name was not used.)
Nagobcnik moved his vote to D_V in #384. (Possible syntax error with bold tags.)
Olli*** moved his vote to Torg in #221. (Possible syntax error with bold tags.)
Rhand, Ophidia, Bloodmoon, Audio, Mograppler, Folza and Blues (myself) are correctly attributed.
Thank you in advance for responding.
@King Torg: Could you please elaborate on your last post? The wording suggests that you favor lynching D_V, yet your vote is still on either Olli*** or Folza (depending on whether the error is with the vote count software, or with my brief review of your posts). If you feel either Folza or Olli*** is a better option for lynch at this point, could you please specify why you feel that way?
BluesEclipse is correct on all counts. There *will* be a lynch on the 24th even if no player reaches the lynch threshold of 7 - the player with the most votes will be lynched in that eventuality.
Hey all, I apologize again for my absence over the last couple of days. Work was awful, but thats neither here nor there. Jumping right into it:
A lot has happened in the past couple of days that have changed my initial view on who is the biggest threat now. First off, D_V did change on my reads list, and he's sitting at the bottom. Also, I'm pretty much on the same page as everyone else regarding D_V. He's claiming that we are all wrong, yet his only comments to why are either we're "not as experienced" or we're just wrong. He's not really providing much beyond that. He's refusing to look at any of the accusations against him from town point of view which makes me think that he isn't town, he's scum.
most of the things D_v said are quite non sequitur, and rhand just pointed out one of them.
Notice how D_v started to deflect the question after rhand's questions?
we should vote DV before a no lynch happens. Hurry.
Ophidia, we can't no lynch unless everyone takes their votes off. Wheat's post 402 says that we lynch whoever has the most counts on them. Also, I think everyone's reads change if he does end up flipping town. We all will have to look at the game under closer inspection.
That being said, at this point since we seem to be all on the same page:
Hey all, I apologize again for my absence over the last couple of days. Work was awful, but thats neither here nor there. Jumping right into it:
A lot has happened in the past couple of days that have changed my initial view on who is the biggest threat now. First off, D_V did change on my reads list, and he's sitting at the bottom. Also, I'm pretty much on the same page as everyone else regarding D_V. He's claiming that we are all wrong, yet his only comments to why are either we're "not as experienced" or we're just wrong. He's not really providing much beyond that. He's refusing to look at any of the accusations against him from town point of view which makes me think that he isn't town, he's scum.
most of the things D_v said are quite non sequitur, and rhand just pointed out one of them.
Notice how D_v started to deflect the question after rhand's questions?
we should vote DV before a no lynch happens. Hurry.
Ophidia, we can't no lynch unless everyone takes their votes off. Wheat's post 402 says that we lynch whoever has the most counts on them. Also, I think everyone's reads change if he does end up flipping town. We all will have to look at the game under closer inspection.
That being said, at this point since we seem to be all on the same page:
@D_V: people actually have said a lot of things that they say makes you scummy. You just constantly refuse to acknowledge it. You keep saying nobody has evidence, then you give a half assed excuse about how nobody has as much experience as you, and then go back to saying that nobody has given any evidence as to what makes you scummy. That, my friend, is what makes you scummy.
@D_V: people actually have said a lot of things that they say makes you scummy. You just constantly refuse to acknowledge it. You keep saying nobody has evidence, then you give a half assed excuse about how nobody has as much experience as you, and then go back to saying that nobody has given any evidence as to what makes you scummy. That, my friend, is what makes you scummy.
Like I'm actually offended blood moon would say what was said.
I did address the case on me. I've asked time and time again for someone to point to something that says I'm scum.
Which NOBODY has done.
Like its just a lie offensive and rude to say I've done otherwise.
You haven't addressed the case on you, and people have pointed out multiple things that say you're scum. There's a difference between logically disproving arguments and straw-manning arguments (such as post 381) disregarding their argument because "you're more experienced" (292 as well as others) or giving responses that aren't actually arguments. (388)
Players have given reasons to vote for you (Bluesy, Ophidia, and Rhand) and you refuse to respond to them in a satisfactory manner. If you want me to name specific posts, I will. You can't deny everything, but you still try to. Unvote
Vote: D_V
@Bluesy I wasn't super confident on lynching DV before, but looking back at previous pages, its hard not to be. The post where Folza asked for a mentor seemed like a "they're voting for me, guess they figured my scumminess out! gg." Now that he's posted more, he doesn't seem scummy anymore. My read on olli stands, since he hasn't done anything else since I made that post. Currently I'd like to hang DV, then fugg.
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"When I'm sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story"
-Barney Stinson
You know its a problem nobody even asked me to claim.
I'm Vanilla Town will flip as much.
Rhand is scum.
Blue is town.
If Ophidia is town and pulls this again I think I'm done playing with them.
One of the others on my wagon is scum maybe both. But I really think Torg is scum.
My initial guess of the scum team is Grappler Rhand and Torg.
Bloodmoon I think is town just totally wrong. I totally looked at that Blue had to say from a town point of view. I think Blue is town. Therefore its coming from town.
Like I'm actually offended blood moon would say what was said.
I did address the case on me. I've asked time and time again for someone to point to something that says I'm scum.
Which NOBODY has done.
Like its just a lie offensive and rude to say I've done otherwise.
You haven't addressed the case on you, and people have pointed out multiple things that say you're scum. There's a difference between logically disproving arguments and straw-manning arguments (such as post 381) disregarding their argument because "you're more experienced" (292 as well as others) or giving responses that aren't actually arguments. (388)
Players have given reasons to vote for you (Bluesy, Ophidia, and Rhand) and you refuse to respond to them in a satisfactory manner. If you want me to name specific posts, I will. You can't deny everything, but you still try to. Unvote
Vote: D_V
@Bluesy I wasn't super confident on lynching DV before, but looking back at previous pages, its hard not to be. The post where Folza asked for a mentor seemed like a "they're voting for me, guess they figured my scumminess out! gg." Now that he's posted more, he doesn't seem scummy anymore. My read on olli stands, since he hasn't done anything else since I made that post. Currently I'd like to hang DV, then fugg.
OK, I read the last couple of pages, and it seems that there is a giant flame war between the previous player and DV
judging by D_V's actions in the flame war, especially the self vote thing, he is likely scum along with mogg and somebody else
Because:
1) He is a good enough player to figure out, in a series of interactions (basically the last 3 pages), that a player is town or scum. As my character is as EL claimed, vanilla town, D_V would have no reason to argue further with him and accuse him.
2) D_V, to me, is the kind of player who can vote himself in order to intimidate newer players. He has more of an incentive to do so as scum since he can effectively make voting him a harder decision.
3) D_V's t/s list is not the most appealing. I have no idea what his king torg thing is, and mogg's interaction with him is awkward at best. His quick switch to EL does not bode well either.
4) D_V is what i fear will be the random factor in this game. He is hard to get a solid read on, and this is the one chance I get to actually see pure scumminess from his posts.
Basically I trust El's reads because I know his alignment and D_v did very scummy things
Also ***g is null and audio is null
Rhand, blue and blood is lean town as of now, but all the people I see as town will change if D_v flip town.
Vote D_V
1 Isn't even a reason its a statement. It also if I take it where I think its going, (But it never goes there) assumes I know EL is town?
2 Yeah sure or I can use it to prove a point or self lynch.
3 My town list isn't the most appealing because of "Reasons" Also laughable coming from someone without a town list.
4 ???????????????????????????
So you got one sort of point from Oph.
Which is that I might self vote to intimidate new players, and I have incentive to do this as scum, but I also do as town, so this may lean to me being scum.
With D_V in the lead for votes as well as there being less than 2 hours remaining before the official end to the daty, I will not be changing my vote to D_V. Hopefully you will continue to enjoy your time playing Mafia on MTGSalvation, even though your flaming against EternalLurker, Ophelia and Blues has irked me.
As I have some more work to do this evening, I wish everyone the best of luck for when we wake up in the morning. Sleep well, and don't let the Mafia visit!
@JulsSkogs: When you do get back, I would like to ask for your opinion on the possible Olli*** lynch. He definitely seems like possible lurker!scum, but at the same time I'm not getting nearly as much of a scum vibe off of him as I have been D_V or Audio. Action vs inaction, and such. You think it's worth it to focus on Olli***, or keep pushing on someone else?
@Ophidia: Welcome to the party! I look forward to hearing your take on things.
@King Torg: I'm reading it as either Audio is scum - him calling Folza out as scum for 'starting the reads list train' (despite the fact that I am the one who started it). Honestly, the biggest reason I haven't voted him up yet is because I feel D_V is also scum, and Audio is far less likely to accomplish anything given what we've seen of his playstyle.
I'd like to point out every single person scum reading me is doing so for "Reasons"
That's their actual case. They feel that I've done scummy things but don't make reference to a single thing
@D_V: I would like to point out that I went into great detail on why I'm scumreading you. I can't speak for others, but I detailed my reasons in #308 at your request, and responded to your arguments regarding those reasons in #319. (#329 is when you offered to replace out, so I understand why you did not provide any further response, and may not have gone over #319.)
judging by D_V's actions in the flame war, especially the self vote thing, he is likely scum along with mogg and somebody else
Because:
1) He is a good enough player to figure out, in a series of interactions (basically the last 3 pages), that a player is town or scum. As my character is as EL claimed, vanilla town, D_V would have no reason to argue further with him and accuse him.
2) D_V, to me, is the kind of player who can vote himself in order to intimidate newer players. He has more of an incentive to do so as scum since he can effectively make voting him a harder decision.
3) D_V's t/s list is not the most appealing. I have no idea what his king torg thing is, and mogg's interaction with him is awkward at best. His quick switch to EL does not bode well either.
4) D_V is what i fear will be the random factor in this game. He is hard to get a solid read on, and this is the one chance I get to actually see pure scumminess from his posts.
Basically I trust El's reads because I know his alignment and D_v did very scummy things
Also ***g is null and audio is null
Rhand, blue and blood is lean town as of now, but all the people I see as town will change if D_v flip town.
Vote D_V
Didn't you want to lynch me in Horseman to avoid just get the mislynch over with?
You've given reasons not good ones, but the rest of the votes on my wagon are just I see DV as scummy because of "reasons, but never really say what any of those are"
I only still feel bad about lynching the receiving end of EL's misbehaviour :/
Wrong?
Like how do people find this an argument.
I can point to times I've self voted as town and did for blue. He ignores you guys ignore this/ How is this a compelling argument? Please lynch me on this. You ever say it ever again I'll quote this game. Its a stupid argument, you're wrong. I've proven you to be wrong, and yet you keep going.
I've explained this time and time again.
Mog showed scum tells. This wasn't from inactivity.
The others only scum tell was the inactivity. Once again. How is this compelling?
How is this even a scum tell. I changed my vote. Are you really saying I changed my vote because you questioned it? LUL.
I'M NOT ******* READING TORG AS SCUM FOR LURKING. STOP.
And that's the case on me.
Dear rhand. Please start playing.
First, you didn't actually point me to times you've self-voted as town. The only time I'm aware of for that is in the current game. (Again, I don't go out of my way to look for other people's post patterns in other games.) Your only comment on the matter was that you self-voted to generate reads - which I still don't agree with doing, but that can be chalked up to a difference of opinion. At no point did you cite other examples of where you self-voted.
More importantly, the self-vote thing was not referenced anywhere in the part you quoted that you were responding to. The comments above are, in general, my explanation of why I feel a continued course of anti-town behavior is a scumtell. It's why I formed an initial scumread on Mograppler (pushing no-lynch after multiple people explained why it doesn't help) and Folza (refusal to defend self even in the face of accusations). It's why I cite your constant arguments of 'people too inexperienced to understand good/bad play' or 'more experienced player' in lieu of actual defenses as scumtells - I've explained already why simply citing your experience, or our inexperience, as a reason for an argument to be valid/invalid does not work. Experience doesn't stop people from making stupid mistakes. Inexperience doesn't stop people from coming up with good play. But if you intend to use superior experience as a justification for your actions, you have to support that with examples of where the things you're citing have worked before, because otherwise we have no reason to trust that experience.
Again, not responding to the argument here. The only reference to Mog was that I thanked you for pointing out why you felt his posting pattern was different enough to warrant the scumread. The actual concern is that you were reading other players who were lurking as neutral to town - I questioned why you seem willing to give lurkers in general a default town standing.
And once more, you're ignoring the points I actually made. I cited the possibility of you changing the vote to placate me as one possibility - and pointed out that if that was the reason, the execution was poor, as I was never asking you to change the vote but instead to provide details as to why you had Torg above Lurker when you built far more of a case against Lurker. The other options were that you were responding to Audio prompting you to change your vote (#266), that you're intentionally hiding your reasons from us (and lied when you said there was no reason for you to vote one over the other), or that you didn't actually have a reason for the change (at which point, why make the change?). At no point was there a mention of you scumreading Torg for lurking (a bit confusing, perhaps, since the other player being referred to was EternalLurker, and I just use Lurker in reference to him), but the issue here was, and still is, that you aren't explaining your actions.
The 'not explaining your actions' part seems to be a theme here for you - you repeatedly try to fall back on the experience arguments in lieu of proof, as if you want the bulk of players in this newbie-dominated game to follow you implicitly. You refuse to provide an explanation of the reasoning driving your actions when directly asked, or even an explanation of why you feel elaborating on your reasoning would be detrimental to the town. You remain dismissive of any arguments provided against you, regardless of who is making the argument - and when pressed, you devolve into insulting the argument presented and offering a flat 'you're wrong'. And now, you make a show of addressing things that I considered to already be resolved when I made post #319 (the self-vote, the Mog read, and your reason for reading Torg as scum) instead of actually addressing the concerns I posed here (why would a continued anti-town behavior not be scummy, why should players who lurk and infrequently post with no content get a free townread, and why did you change your vote from Torg to EternalLurker when you did, and then flip back to Torg afterwards).
If you want to keep being evasive and/or dismissive, by all means, do so - I'll see what I can figure out from what you provide either way.
LIAR
None of this makes me scum.
I'm just arguing with someone on who is scum.
Notice Blue never says anything about this makes me scum.
I'm baffled anyone thinks otherwise.
Ugh this is new player stuff.
I'm asking why you would give them a scum default setting.
You can't give a good reason. You're going to say "Blah blah anti-town" I'm going to go back to not scum arguments and you're going to ignore that again. Fact is anti-town isn't scum so its just a neutral maybe a town read. I can see either alignment lurking so its a null tell to me, add the new player stuff and its more likely town imo. I've said this at least 4 other times.
I felt that my Torg case is stronger. Look at my post 250.
What?
Did you not see the flow of the game for me to swap my vote to Lurker?
Like Jesus Christ. I think you read the thread. Anyone reading from the outside would get why I voted lurker.
I don't even understand what you're saying.
I've spent ample time examining multiple players entire posts. I've elaborated on why they are scum.
Frankly I don't even get the points your making. That should be pretty clear from how I'm answering. I don't even understand how any of this makes me scum or what you're even talking about. I'm lost. I don't even know what you think makes me scum.
You're correct that the lurkers might not necessarily be able to be defaulted as scum. But if your read is neutral, you can call them neutral. You went out of your way to state them as town, though. You did not give them a neutral read, you gave them a town read, and now I am asking you again, as I was previously, to justify that town read on those players.
As for your case on EternalLurker vs Torg, you went out of your way to elucidate the several things you thought made Lurker scum in #234.Your case on Torg, in #250, is the following.This consists of his RVS and him offering requested explanations of his subsequent vote (2-5), him complaining about inactivity in the thread (6), a comment which I see as a simple joke made due to lack of content, but you somehow call a 'scum buddy slip' based on your read on Mog (7), and three posts that would all be debatable as scumtells (8-10). You nearly had as many different scumtells on Lurker as there were entire posts on Torg. Yet you first put Torg up (despite having given what many would argue as a stronger case on Lurker). Then you later said you didn't care who you lynch first, and promptly switched your vote to Lurker. This is inconsistent - if you believe you've got a stronger case on Torg, voting Lurker (who would subsequently be a less feasible lynch due to a weaker case) makes no sense. If you feel the case on each is equal, and don't care who goes first, then switching the vote from Torg to Lurker makes no sense. If you decided that your case on Lurker was stronger, then switching the vote back to Torg in #305 makes no sense. If you feel you've got a stronger case on one over the other, the sensible move is to push the stronger case, the one that you can offer more evidence to support, and use that to try and build both credibility in yourself and a stronger case on your other scumreads.
Lastly, I went into detail in #308 of what I considered to be scumtells from you. I don't believe I need to reiterate the same points, though if you want me to go over it again, I will do so.
I truly am done.
I don't care.
You don't have case.
It bothers me that you're scum reading me for zero reason and seem to think there is a case on me.
Don't worry you promptly shot to number 3 on my scum list.
Have you ever once determined my alignment correctly?
What exactly do you find a compelling argument about me being scum?
I'll wait.
The same logic goes for lynching fuggingolli***. If we lynch him, he only posted like 4 times. I don't think that lynching him for EL's actions is bad, since it was EL that got the most 'evidence' out on him in the first place. Not lynching him because of that would be like not prosecuting a criminal because the interrogating officer was mean to him.
@ophidia Why would you think D_V got exposed?
-Barney Stinson
"Hodor"
-Hodor
AudioTsunami - 1 (Mograppler)
D_V - 4 (Rhand, BluesEclipse, JulsSkogs, Ophidia)
fuggingolli*** - 4 (King Torg, nagobcnik, Bloodmoon0324, Folza)
nagobcnik - 1 (fuggingolli***)
Not Voting - 1 (D_V)
Ophidia - 1 (AudioTsunami)
The deadline is on Monday, 7/24 at 7PM CST. If there has not been a lynch by then, the day will end in a No Lynch!
Also, I'm seeing errors in the vote count.
The last vote I can find from Torg was post #176, where he votes for Folza. (Possible syntax error with bold tags.)
D_V voted last for King Torg in #305. (Vote counter may not have recognized because full name was not used.)
Nagobcnik moved his vote to D_V in #384. (Possible syntax error with bold tags.)
Olli*** moved his vote to Torg in #221. (Possible syntax error with bold tags.)
Rhand, Ophidia, Bloodmoon, Audio, Mograppler, Folza and Blues (myself) are correctly attributed.
Thank you in advance for responding.
@King Torg: Could you please elaborate on your last post? The wording suggests that you favor lynching D_V, yet your vote is still on either Olli*** or Folza (depending on whether the error is with the vote count software, or with my brief review of your posts). If you feel either Folza or Olli*** is a better option for lynch at this point, could you please specify why you feel that way?
Notice how D_v started to deflect the question after rhand's questions?
we should vote DV before a no lynch happens. Hurry.
Updated votecount:
AudioTsunami - 1 (Mograppler)
D_V - 5 (Rhand, BluesEclipse, JulsSkogs, Ophidia, nagobcnik)
fuggingolli*** - 2 (Bloodmoon0324, Folza)
King Torg - 2 (fuggingolli***,D_V)
Folza - 1 (King Torg)
Ophidia - 1 (AudioTsunami)
Additionally, fuggingolli***, mograppler, and AudioTsunami are being prodded.
What deflection are you even talking about?
Can you get ******* better at this game and not try and lynch me every game?
Jesus ******* christ.
Just post some thoughts.
Can be things like I think X is scummy because of Y or
I think Z is town because of B. Things like that.
A lot has happened in the past couple of days that have changed my initial view on who is the biggest threat now. First off, D_V did change on my reads list, and he's sitting at the bottom. Also, I'm pretty much on the same page as everyone else regarding D_V. He's claiming that we are all wrong, yet his only comments to why are either we're "not as experienced" or we're just wrong. He's not really providing much beyond that. He's refusing to look at any of the accusations against him from town point of view which makes me think that he isn't town, he's scum.
Ophidia, we can't no lynch unless everyone takes their votes off. Wheat's post 402 says that we lynch whoever has the most counts on them. Also, I think everyone's reads change if he does end up flipping town. We all will have to look at the game under closer inspection.
That being said, at this point since we seem to be all on the same page:
unvote vote D_V
Umm.
I've looked at plenty of arguments against me.
Have you even read post 390 386?
But I'm serious people keep saying "I like the case on DV", but no one is saying what that is or a single point that they agree with.
I did address the case on me. I've asked time and time again for someone to point to something that says I'm scum.
Which NOBODY has done.
Like its just a lie offensive and rude to say I've done otherwise.
unvote vote: D_V
This is what I'm talking about.
Once again just vague theirs points against you.
I literally have no clue what those are.
You haven't addressed the case on you, and people have pointed out multiple things that say you're scum. There's a difference between logically disproving arguments and straw-manning arguments (such as post 381) disregarding their argument because "you're more experienced" (292 as well as others) or giving responses that aren't actually arguments. (388)
Players have given reasons to vote for you (Bluesy, Ophidia, and Rhand) and you refuse to respond to them in a satisfactory manner. If you want me to name specific posts, I will. You can't deny everything, but you still try to.
Unvote
Vote: D_V
@Bluesy I wasn't super confident on lynching DV before, but looking back at previous pages, its hard not to be. The post where Folza asked for a mentor seemed like a "they're voting for me, guess they figured my scumminess out! gg." Now that he's posted more, he doesn't seem scummy anymore. My read on olli stands, since he hasn't done anything else since I made that post. Currently I'd like to hang DV, then fugg.
-Barney Stinson
"Hodor"
-Hodor
I'm Vanilla Town will flip as much.
Rhand is scum.
Blue is town.
If Ophidia is town and pulls this again I think I'm done playing with them.
One of the others on my wagon is scum maybe both. But I really think Torg is scum.
My initial guess of the scum team is Grappler Rhand and Torg.
Bloodmoon I think is town just totally wrong. I totally looked at that Blue had to say from a town point of view. I think Blue is town. Therefore its coming from town.
I'd love for you to do so.
I don't think you can.
Rhands said zero about why I'm scummy.
1 Isn't even a reason its a statement. It also if I take it where I think its going, (But it never goes there) assumes I know EL is town?
2 Yeah sure or I can use it to prove a point or self lynch.
3 My town list isn't the most appealing because of "Reasons" Also laughable coming from someone without a town list.
4 ???????????????????????????
So you got one sort of point from Oph.
Which is that I might self vote to intimidate new players, and I have incentive to do this as scum, but I also do as town, so this may lean to me being scum.
That's it.
Hes posted feelings, but nothing real.
Don't worry he will blame his bad play here by being on the cruise.
And blues posted some thoughts none of which hes capable of stringing together to say I'm scum.
Great job at throwing the game!
You even got used for points by others!
Well played!
As I have some more work to do this evening, I wish everyone the best of luck for when we wake up in the morning. Sleep well, and don't let the Mafia visit!
Thank you D_V!
Well played!
Might be just a straight scum claim here.
IDK.
In the forests of Naya, the elves move quickly, but none arrive in time.
What light there was, has faded from her eyes.
D_V has been lynched. He was Mayael the Anima, town Vanilla
It is now Night 1! Night actions are due by 7PM CST on Thursday, 7/27.
Or is it three of you?
Rhand has been killed. He was Sen Triplets, town Vanilla
It is now Day 2. With 10 alive, it is 6 to lynch.
The deadline will be shorter due to lack of activity last phase - the deadline is Thursday, 8/10 at 7PM CST