I know I'm way behind, but I think either (but not both) King Torg or D_V are scum based on posts 176 + 177. For now, i'm inclined to Unvote. Vote: King Torg.
@EternalLurker: A total of 54 posts made, and only 13 actually include any explanation of your reads, analysis of people's posts, or challenging others for explanations of things they've posted (as opposed to challenging people to post in general).
...Why on earth would you use percentages instead of the number of relevant posts? How does making extra content-less posts override the ones with content that I've provided? I've made abundantly clear that the constant extra posts were just an attempt to keep the thread going, combating the excessive lurking. Now that there's actual activity here, said posts are no longer necessary, which is why, as you can see, the bolded parts in your spoiler are clustered at the bottom after D_V and Rhand arrived.
@Golli***: Huh. Interesting read there. I think I see what you're seeing. Given the other context of the thread, though, if I had to choose between those two I'd be going with D_V.
I wonder if this was a straight up request, or as a result of his post. If it was a request, then i think we might be mislynching. Makes me feel like his post was more of lack of understand and frustration than giving up. Also, the fact that he isn't giving up changes things, tho it does mean that he is still lurking, which isn't good. I want to see him post something today with an explanation on his actions. And please give us some of your reads.
@Moggrapler: I would be more than happy to share with everyone my explanation for getting a mentor. You've got it right: I think it was more a lack of understanding and frustration. I'm new to the format and haven't been able to get very good reads on anybody. I'm certainly going to go back and do an entire re-reading, as it seems like since I last posted I'm still on the chopping block but would prefer to be saved from that fate. That being said, my only current defense is that I am having trouble writing a defense, which is where I hope my mentor will be able to assist.
I'm looking to be more active now, I truly am, and when I get a better framework on reads I will let you know within the next couple real-life days.
@Bloodmoon: You are correct that I have possibly cracked under pressure, but I am confident I can make a full recovery. We'll just have to see what happens in the meantime.
I wonder if this was a straight up request, or as a result of his post. If it was a request, then i think we might be mislynching. Makes me feel like his post was more of lack of understand and frustration than giving up.
We really shouldn't be analyzing out-of-game stuff this much, but...this is still just as non-alignment-indicative as his earlier actions. If he's scum under heavy suspicion, he'd realize "Hm, I don't seem to know how to blend in as a proper Townie; maybe I should've had a mentor after all." There's no reason to read him requesting a mentor as a Townie thing to do.
@EternalLurker: I opted to include the total counts for posts to show that while you've had some items of substance (and yes, proportionally more since the replacements occurred), it is understandable that some of that substance might've gotten lost in the mass of fluff from the other posts. Like I said, Audio did have a point in that the vast majority of your posts were not notable content previously - and yet you've still provided more content in your posts than he or several other players have. I could see trying to read your posting pattern as scummy, but it's just a single possible tell in a game where we can probably find at least 2-3 scumtells on anyone at this point. (Also, that PBPA took entirely too long.)
I do agree that we should not be reading anything, alignment-wise, into Folza's decision to get a mentor. It would make sense from either side of the fence, town or scum. Mind you, I'm glad that the guy has opted to stick with it, and I'll be keeping my eyes open for what he puts forth now.
@fuggingolli***: I can see your train of thought, but I don't necessarily expect that their both scum. D_V's slot is more likely, though I'm still looking at what Torg's doing as well, just in case. They just seemed a bit too quick to try and call each other out as scum for me to think it's scumbuddies distancing one another.
@Folza: As I mentioned in my comments towards Lurker, I'm willing to give you the chance to defend yourself - always have been. But while you were posting previously, you weren't giving any real defense within the framework of the game itself, and it seemed you were refusing to provide any content posts at all. That's why I had voted on you. So get with your mentor for advice. Present your case - I, at least, am willing to hear it out and see if you can change my mind at this point.
@Rhand, D_V: Sorry - I tend to be fairly verbose in things like this. If you ever need me to summarize a point, or provide a tl;dr version of a post, let me know and I'll be happy to do so.
...Wow. Apparently that post was far too nuanced for you to understand, so maybe you should reread it a few dozen times until you stop pulling ridiculous reads out of thin air.
1) I specifically stated in option #2 that my noisiness was on the wrong targets, as a contrast to #1. Clearly this means that the noise was on the right targets in the hypothetical of #1.
2) I addressed the issue again because the post immediately prior to that, Blues' post, which I quoted in the post on which you're basing your entire non-read, brought up the issue again.
If you're gonna tunnel on someone to try to build false Town credibility via faked conviction, at least make an effort to have your argument make some sense. You're basing everything on a single post and you can't even bother to read that post properly.
@AudioTsunami: You know how you brought up how context changes when parts are added, when you tried to claim 56 as a scumtell based on 61? You seem to be missing the context between the two points in #61, and since I already explained it once I'm really leaning towards the idea that you're intentionally ignoring the context, rather than simply not being intelligent enough to see it. So let me point this out, as directly as possible, in the following spoilered section.
Regarding this speculation on my role...I'm not claiming anything, but since this is a newbie game I guess I'll offer some input on what -- from an outsider's perspective -- I would consider my actions to imply. Yes, it's true that a noisy person attracts attention, but the sort of attention varies depending on a few factors. Here's the basic breakdown.
1) I'm Town and my noisiness is scaring the Mafia. In this case, they'll possibly want to kill me, so it's true that an investigative Townie role wouldn't want to be in this position on day one, before having a chance to use investigative abilities.
2) I'm Town but my noisiness is all on the wrong targets, so the Mafia doesn't care. In this case, there's actually a chance that I'll get lynched for noisy misreads, in which case a Vanilla Townie wouldn't act like this cuz there's nothing he can role-claim to save himself from a mislynch.
3) I'm Mafia. Then I know I won't die at night, and, though I still have to worry about mislynches, the chance is a lil' lower cuz of the fact that my scum-buddy's not gonna be bussing me on day one.
So, if you're reading me as Town like you say, then it's option 1 or 2, in which case the most likely read on me would be as a non-investigative non-vanilla role who's not particularly worried about being night-killed.
Like, say, a Town Bulletproof.
just food for thought
Lurker's entire post, minus quotes of other posts, is provided above. The bolded parts are where context comes into play.
If you look at the bolded portion of 1) on its own, it says, "I'm town, and my noisiness is scaring the Mafia." Why would his noisiness be scaring them? It doesn't say it here.
Now look at the bolded portion of 2) on its own. It says, "I'm town, but my noisiness is on all the wrong targets, so the Mafia doesn't care." Here, the statement is that his noisiness would not be scaring the Mafia. The italicized part provides needed context, though. Why wouldn't the Mafia be scared if he's being noisy? Because he's being noisy about the wrong targets.
So look at context. 2) establishes the circumstances where the Mafia wouldn't care about him being noisy - when he's being noisy about the wrong targets. So what circumstances does that leave for 1) to apply, where his noisiness would scare the Mafia? When his noisiness is not on the wrong targets - meaning he's being noisy about the Mafia themselves. Obviously, it's not as cut and dried as that (as his noisiness doesn't matter unless he can persuade people to listen, meaning there are other variables to consider when trying to predict a scum response if he's town), but I'm pretty sure this would be elementary school level reading comprehension to parse out the first portion based on additional context clues provided in the second.
Now, regarding your other concern - that #61 is a scumtell because it's addressing the same thing as #56. Where your argument falls apart here is that the two posts aren't addressing the same thing.
EternalLurker I really think he's Town Vanilla. I think if he had a role he would be a lot quieter, he is throwing out lots of accusations trying to get people to talk which I think is a good thing. Tho he is also a loose cannon so my read could be way off. I tenitively trust him.
#56 was a response to the following part:
Quote from Mograppler »
Tho he is also a loose cannon
while #61 was a response to the following:
Quote from Mograppler »
I really think he's Town Vanilla. I think if he had a role he would be a lot quieter, he is throwing out lots of accusations trying to get people to talk which I think is a good thing.
as well as a response to this, in my #60:
Quote from BluesEclipse »
Re: Lurker - If he were a power role, I could see him sparking discussion specifically to try and get reads to narrow down possible targets for whatever he would be able to do. Town roles would want to see who looks particularly scummy, while scum roles would want to try and draw out info that might indicate a town power role that they can target on the NK.
You see? #56 was a joke made off of a small portion of the post, while #61 was a serious response not only to Mograppler's comments of substance in the post, but also to another person's comments on the same matter that occurred after #56. That I'm having to spell this out to you in this level of detail really makes me think of one of two possibilities. That you're just exceptionally bad at seeing context, or that you're intentionally misreading these things to try and push a lynch on Lurker. One's simply annoying, but can be remedied if you work on it, while the other is a scumtell. Which would you prefer me to believe?
I don't see anything about BlueEclipse to be scummy after reading his posts though. Just a lot there. So much there I'd argue that him being scum is largely an impossibility based on content produced alone. But there is a lot of town tells coming from his posts. For the moment he seems to be trying to solve the game. With that much content additionally BlueEclipse producing as much content as he has and me only having a few lines I could point too as possibly worrying makes me think that he is town.
Contrast that with Eternal Lurker who is rapidly moving down on my scum list for his attempt to lynch anyone who he sees as trying to take the reigns from him.
My current list is thus.
10. BluesEclipse
See above
1. JulsSkogs (m. Ecophagy)
Seems new, but seems town, post 162 is very towny I don't agree with it but its a towny attack.
I know I didn't chime in much yesterday, but since reading through what's transpired since, it's certainly strange that fug maintains his silence.
3. Rhand (r. Sandmummy)
I actually think Rhands town the more hes posted. Hes trying, I don't want to lynch him right now that says something to me.
6. nagobcnik
I agree with a lot of what nago has said maybe not the conclusion a 100%, but with the logic used. And it reads as town to me. I'm also suspicious that this is a gimmick which may change my read.
8. Folza (m. shadowlancerx)
I've talked about Folza before but I'm just not getting a scum read from him.
4. AudioTsunami
I'm not certain how I feel about Audio, I'm leaning town but more neutral town. Not a lot of content from their posts.
12. Bloodmoon0324 (m. Prophylaxis)
Seems town has said things about the game state in a progress minded way and has been attempting to scum hunt.
5. fuggingolli***
Seems town to me. Not a lot of content more neutral but not getting any scum
7. EternalLurker
I love eternal hes got it all imo.
First post vote a scum buddy? Check Second vote move to weak player and keep it there? Check. Set up speculation? Check. Defending himself or saying things that don't progress the game state? Check.
Talking about Flavor mechanics? Check. Voting another weak player? Check.
Any actual scum hunting noperino.
9. Mograppler
I've talked about this before. They just ooze scum.
2. King Torg (m. Iso)
Hes just 100% scum. That and his mentors Iso so hes even more likely to be scum. Nothing about King Torg is town.
MOLEGRAPPLER! YOUR'E OBVIOUSLY SCUM! Don't try to deny it because I have undisputable evidence that you don't even know exists yet! You should just confess now and get it over with.
****in' A, apparently I should've just lurked if I wanted to be Town-read. The scum reads on me that you people are pulling from your asses are quite impressive in how completely they manage to ignore what's actually going on in the thread.
Contrast that with Eternal Lurker who is rapidly moving down on my scum list for his attempt to lynch anyone who he sees as trying to take the reigns from him.
Where the actual **** do you get this *****? Literally none of my votes have been on people who are trying to present themselves as town leaders. I've pressure-voted lurkers, and I worked with nago and BluesEclipse on building a wagon on one of the lurkers to get some activity going; I even switched over to nago's choice rather than forcing him to join mine. I've never once presented myself as the leader nor attacked anyone who's tried to do so. Present a ******* quote instead of talking out of your ass.
7. EternalLurker
I love eternal hes got it all imo.
First post vote a scum buddy? Check Second vote move to weak player and keep it there? Check. Set up speculation? Check. Defending himself or saying things that don't progress the game state? Check.
Talking about Flavor mechanics? Check. Voting another weak player? Check.
Any actual scum hunting noperino.
******* amazing.
"Vote a scum buddy"? You're chain-reading me off your scum-read of Mograppler, and the multiple posts I make after that are altogether far too much early interaction with Mograppler for there to be even the slightest chance he's my scum-buddy. I'd have to be idiotic and suicidal to spend several of my first posts like that. So chain-reading is trash, your particular chain is trash, and your scum-read on the first link of the chain is trash. This is a great start.
"Second vote"? What, you mean when I'm still RVS-ing early on to get people to post, cuz it's clear we've got a major lurking issue? Sure, read into RVS cuz that'll get you far.
"Set up speculation"? You mean respond to speculation? Are you even trying to read the thread?
"Defending himself"? I wouldn't have to keep doing that if y'all wouldn't keep making trash reads.
"Talking about Flavor mechanics"? You mean explaining that flavor generally doesn't matter in response to a newbie question about it? Again, READ.
"Voting another weak player"? Did you not ******* read how nago (the guy you are Town-reading) asked me to do that, LITERALLY ONE POST BEFORE? And how BluesEclipse (the other guy you are Town-reading) joined the two of us right afterwards, yet somehow my doing it is suspicious while him doing it is fine in your books?
Incredibly stupid ***** like this is why I'm forced to waste posts and time and sanity defending myself.
9. Mograppler
I've talked about this before. They just ooze scum.
Your entire "read" was based on his focus on a Day One No Lynch (unless there's more information you'd like to share, but you say you've "talked about this before" and that was all you mentioned). We all discussed this already. You can scum-read it if you'd like, but it's possibly an honest mistake, and given that almost everything he's posted since then has been pretty Townie, it's best to give him the benefit of the doubt on that. Unless you'd like to continue picking and choosing your evidence on him as you have on me, so that his one early mistake is a scum-tell and every post he's made since then is irrelevant for you.
MOLEGRAPPLER! YOUR'E OBVIOUSLY SCUM! Don't try to deny it because I have undisputable evidence that you don't even know exists yet! You should just confess now and get it over with.
This just reads as scum to me.
So with that said Unvote Vote King Torg
...Jesus.
**** the Folza wagon; my vote's going back to the slot where it's always belonged.
Yo Townies (I think I've made it clear who my Town-reads are, but in case there's any question: nago, Bluesy, Grappler, BM, Torg), I'm pretty sure our job's 2/3 done now. Would y'all prefer to lynch D_V first or Golli***?
I know I didn't chime in much yesterday, but since reading through what's transpired since, it's certainly strange that fug maintains his silence.
There's literally nothing with which he can "disagree" when a person simply states "Hey it's weird that this guy's still not providing content given what's going on at the moment". So he dulls Juls' statement to defend Golli*** by saying "I don't agree with it BUT HEY I'M NOT DISCREDITING JULS OR ANYTHING, PROMISE". Classic tactic to defend a scum-buddy through emotion rather than logic: don't actually argue against the content (since it's not arguable in this situation), just say "I don't agree but I still think you're Town, so let's be friends".
And I know about half of you already wanted to wagon Golli***, while the other half were with me on D_V's slot. So you know these two are independently scummy and they're apparently buddied. Seems pretty cut and dry to me at this point.
Ahahaha, I hadn't even realized that Torg -- D_V's primary scum read for nonexistent reasons -- was the first to vote against Golli***. This gets better and better.
Man, I'm starting to wonder if D_V is just being this incredibly obvious about his buddying with Golli*** in order to drag down a random Townie when he gets lynched; maybe Golli*** is totally innocent. Whatever. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it. Let's just bury D_V for now and figure out where to go from there.
Ohla that's omgus if I ever saw any.
@EL: do you often react aggressively when someone accuses you?
I'm not too sure what to think of Blues now. His response is good, but that can be because he is a good player.
D_V white knights him, which I was expecting from scum!D_V but also from town!D_V if he really believes what he says.
I do get the feeling D_V ignored part of my case tho, so I think D_V is more likely scum than town here.
@D_V: can you show me those towntells from Blues please? And also make a case on Kingtorgs?
Keeping my vote where it is for now, but will probably move when I get responses to my post.
@Blues: in your reply to me, you talk about "actual scumtells (and the lack thereof)". What are actual scumtells? Do you think every scum has them? (Feel free to ignore the first part of the question if you think that would impeach your finding of scum).
About DV: you misinterpret my accusation there. What he did was post a typical buddy-line there. If you are scum, that post makes him very likely to be scum with you. The ending of your post there talking about that feels a bit like omgus/chainsaw. "Leave me an dmy buddy alone."
I'm not sure yet, and EL's reaction to DV seriously gives me pause, but if one of you or DV flips scum, I will lynch the other one in a heartbeat.
Ohla that's omgus if I ever saw any.
@EL: do you often react aggressively when someone accuses you?
OMGUS? The hell? He voted Torg, not me.
I'm aggressive when people are clearly making ***** up left and right in their accusations, regardless of whether or not I'm the target. Even worse than all the complete lies he said about me is his final vote on Torg. If he actually believed any of the ***** he'd said about me, he'd be voting me, cuz his fake reasons for calling me scum are far stronger and more plentiful than his fake reasons for voting Torg. The fact that he then voted Torg in spite of that shows that he doesn't really believe anything he said about me, and knows he couldn't back it up if I were his actual vote target; he just decided to throw baseless shade my way while voting Torg in support of his scum-buddy. (Golli*** also voted Torg, in case the connections between those two weren't clear enough yet.)
It's really quite ridiculous to call that OMGUS. I don't understand why people in this game are incapable of reading the thread before posting. I've had two other people vote me and I ignored or calmly explained why their votes were wrong; then Tsunami voted me for stupid reasons and I said he was probably Town but just dumb, finally explaining why he was dumb when he kept on it; and now I'm voting D_V when he didn't vote for me. How on earth can you possibly call that OMGUS?
@Rhand: What I meant when saying there were no actual scumtells I could find on Torg was simply that in the few posts he provided, there was nothing that jumped out to me as a possible scumtell - his posts were sparse, but he was at least providing some content relevant to the discussions. I qualified it as a weak town lean at the time specifically because, as I said, my gut at the time was telling me that the content of his posts seemed townish. And yes, I believe that even the best scum players will have some tells, but the better the player, the easier it will be for them to hide their tells or mask them. Most of my methods involve trying to get a grasp on the player's thought process (which is why some of the questions I've answered have been ones where the answer itself didn't matter as much - it was just a means to try and see how the person reached a conclusion). If someone's posting things that are inconsistent with how they would normally approach an issue, I'm likely going to see that as a scumtell - because it means that they've got a specific reason for deviating from the normal patterns that they would follow if trying to solve the issue. It's similar to the logic of trying to figure out if someone's scum by seeing if their play matches up with other games, but I'm looking specifically for consistency of thought and patterns of posting within this individual game. Likewise, if a person is holding to a line of thought that is verifiably flawed, either due to not actually parsing the information correctly (as in AudioTsunami's case currently), or when they try to hold to a line of thought after it has been clearly explained as to how that line of thought is flawed or anti-town (such as Mograppler's original hangup on the no-lynch idea), I'm going to see that as a scumtell because there's got to be some reason they want to cling to a flawed line of thought. You may not feel that I'm necessarily good at doing so (you said yourself that you felt my reads were poor) but it's how I like to approach things. And, assuming I'm doing it right, it should lead to positive results more often than not.
@D_V: You're calling Torg out as 100% scum, based off of his initial concern with Mog's push for no-lynch (which I was seeing as scummy at the time myself), as well as his concern with lurkers (which I consider to be sensible - unfortunately, we can't take the stance of 'ignore them and they'll go away' in this). I don't see those as enough to claim him as 100% scum by any means - nor do I consider his posting enough to clear him (since my list, he's moved from weak town lean to weak scum lean). So could you elaborate on what other tells you're seeing from him that you feel are enough to lock him as scum above anyone else?
Regarding Lurker, your arguments for him being scum are somewhat lacking, especially after my review of his posts. The initial votes, first on Mog, then on Sunray, are RVS votes - even if he and Mog do both turn out to be scum, the vote on Sunray was early enough that he couldn't be classified as a weak player. I can't consider that vote a scumtell. To say he set up speculation isn't entirely unfounded - at the time, there were only 3 to 4 of us posting, so we had little more than speculation available for the others. All of us who were active at the time indulged in some speculation regarding the quieter players, as we had nothing more available to us regarding them. Not a scumtell, unless you're trying to argue it is scummy for all of the active players in the game to speculate about the inactives. Defending himself at this stage of the game should not be considered a scumtell under any circumstances - unless you can point me to a gamestate where a townie would benefit from being lynched on D1. This is my main issue with Folza - simply bowing to pressure and refusing to defend yourself when nothing can be gained (with any certainty) from your lynch would be anti-town. The discussion of flavor vs mechanics was in direct reply to someone commenting that they expected roleplaying from the game, and felt we should be using flavor more - not a scumtell, but rather addressing a concern (and I commented on the matter as well). Voting another weak player, in Folza - Lurker had concerns about Folza prior to that vote, but was not alone in that. Nago had concerns about Folza as well (and was the first to vote for Folza), and I had expressed concerns on him prior to that, had him as one of my top scumreads, and shifted my own vote to him as well immediately after Lurker and nago. As I've stated before, I still have my concerns with Folza (see my previous comment regarding refusal to defend). So, again, not something I am inclined to view as a scumtell. Whether or not you agree with my viewpoints here is up to you, but I do have one question regarding this.
If you have so much that you feel marks Lurker as scum - far more than you've suggested for Torg - what is it that's keeping you from voting for Lurker?
Also, you say that you read nago as town, but have concerns that this is a gimmick. What is causing those concerns?
Lastly, you're saying that you are reading neutral to neutral!town from AudioTsunami's posts. I have to wonder how you are reconciling his recent posts regarding Lurker with a town read, as his posting has seemed (to me) to be clearly anti-town. Not necessarily because he's targeting Lurker, but because he's indicated he's not willing to consider further information, and certainly seems to be actively misinterpreting Lurker's post #61 (whether through malice or ignorance, though I am currently leaning towards the former).
You've managed to raise several flags for me here - more than Folza, more than Audio, and more than anyone else I've been looking at. The fact that you seem to be intent on arguing behaviors that don't really offer any benefit to the town under any circumstances as pro-town doesn't cast a positive light on your own actions.
(since my list, [Mograppler]'s moved from weak town lean to weak scum lean)
I know this was a minor part of your post, but since I don't disagree with anything else you said...What's the reason for this?
I have literally only one concern about Mograppler right now, and, while it's a strong one, I don't think it's applicable to your reads. Namely, it's that he's been following me pretty strongly, in votes and general opinions. I'd like to believe that it's just cuz he's fairly inexperienced, Town-reads me, and feels he should be working with his strongest Town-read until he's gotten enough experience to work more on his own. But I am somewhat worried that he might be Mafia pocketing me.
However, I don't think any worries about pocketing me can fuel your scum-read of him, because that line of argument requires hard-Town-reading me, and I'm not sure you're quite that sold on me being Town just yet.
Oh, whoops. Well, I'm mostly Town-reading Torg, but if your scum-read on him is "weak", there's no real conflict I guess. If it gets stronger we'll have to discuss it.
Oh and it bugs me that DV voted kingtorgs. He's my most likely scum candidate #3.
I will reread and get a t/s out.
Maybe because he's scum
Oh man so I've got Rhand voting me, scum and a new town player.
Neat.
@Blues like I said bowing to pressure is a null tell.
Nago's accounts been made for a while. I definitely have a couple of gimick accounts sitting around from many years ago I've never used on purpose.
Regarding Eternal, all of what he is doing is classic scum tells a couple isn't a lot but that many is a lot. He has yet to scum hunt or even actively move towards scum. More than half his posts are really really bad setup analysis. Its a basic setup shouldn't even really be concerned.
King Torg is particular scummy so I'll just over all of their posts right now.
Post 1 confirm
Post 2 Votes Sunray for silly reasons, but its RVS.
Post 3 Votes for a lurker(And lurks himself) CLASSIC, and reads mograppler as towny(Defense of scum mate). And defends his RVS vote(not good).
Post 4 Defends RVS vote again, ugh.
Post 5 Defends RVS vote AGAIN.
Post 6 I can't find anything to do. (I read this as scummy myself because town should be at least trying to town clear people, and scum hunt. Saying nothing to do reads as man I really want a wagon to start.)
Post 7 Literally a scum buddy slip.
Post 8 I'm going to express my opinions, WHAT opinions?
Post 9 Votes folza wagon for silly reasons. Says could be new player behavior and doesn't see it. Why? See his post 6 finally found a wagon to jump on as scum HYPE. I'd vote DV for what reasons? Cause others said so that's why. Hype wagon time.
Post 10 Literally worthless banter. Still thinks I'm scum. Never once did they ever read Mystic as scum. Ever. Find it I dare you.
"Vote a scum buddy"? You're chain-reading me off your scum-read of Mograppler, and the multiple posts I make after that are altogether far too much early interaction with Mograppler for there to be even the slightest chance he's my scum-buddy. I'd have to be idiotic and suicidal to spend several of my first posts like that. So chain-reading is trash, your particular chain is trash, and your scum-read on the first link of the chain is trash. This is a great start.
Oh I'll hit this too. Interaction with other players means about nothing to me in the sense of "I wouldn't talk to X if they were my scum buddy". I could point to you about 5 games in the last year that I've interacted plenty with my buddies. Lack of interaction sometimes means more than actual interaction and there is a thing called bussing. Like this is so weak. WEAK.
Man, it's like there wasn't a replacement at all. I read a post from Sunray's slot and it looks like someone completely new to Mafia, and then I remember it's not supposed to be a novice slot anymore.
"Votes for a lurker"? There is a difference between someone who's completely inactive, versus someone who's in the game but not actually contributing. The latter kind of lurking is an obvious scum-tell. Torg was voting Golli*** (who you're constantly bending over backwards to defend) for doing the latter kind of lurking, as, again, you'd know if you'd bothered reading, cuz he made it quite clear. (Or you're just choosing to ignore words, as I expect.) And I know you're at least vaguely aware that posting without contributing content is the worst kind of lurking because you specifically said Mograppler was "lurking in plain sight" by doing so. But, of course, when it's Golli*** doing it, it's okay and he shouldn't be voted for it, right?
"Defends RVS vote again"? He's defending his vote on Golli***, which was not an RVS vote; Sunray was his RVS vote. It's becoming increasingly difficult to tell if you're twisting the facts or just too lazy to read.
"Defends RVS vote AGAIN"? Yes, he responds to an accusation, how dare he. Oh, and he responds by saying that he wanted to vote for an active player instead of a lurker in RVS. So you have it listed as a scum-tell that he'd defend an RVS vote on a non-lurker, yet just two lines above you list it as a scum-tell when he does vote for a lurker. You're not even ******* trying to pretend you believe in your arbitrary bull***** reads now.
"Scum buddy slip", sure, let's keep chain-reading off of Mograppler when your scum-read of Mograppler is trash.
"I'm going to express my opinions, WHAT opinions?" ...You mean the ones he lists in the very next sentence?
"Says [Folza's play] could be new player behavior and doesn't see it. Why?" Iunno, maybe for the same reasons Blues and nago didn't see it, and thus they voted Folaz too? But when it's them you're totally okay with it, huh? Voting Folza in that situation is only a scum-tell if it's Torg, because Torg targeted Golli*** and now you gotta chainsaw him hard.
"Never once did they ever read Mystic as scum. Ever. Find it I dare you." Okay, since you asked so nicely. Torg expressed in #145 that Sunray's early posts, while not Townie, weren't "enough" for a lynch in his eyes. I responded in #146 that those posts were literally 100% of Sunray's content, so they had better be "enough". Torg never argued against that; I took that to mean he'd acknowledged my point, especially since my argument was against lurking and he'd already expressed anti-lurking sentiments multiple times with his targeting of Golli***. So I've been quite sure he had a scum-read on Sunray for a while now. I guess subtext isn't your thing, though, given that literal text is already clearly not.
Jesus, I know you're trying your damnedest to chainsaw-defend Golli***, but is it really worth making yourself the guaranteed Day One lynch in the process? Cuz you've just responded to digging yourself a hole by upgrading your shovel to an excavator.
To clarify: while it's fine to drag out RVS a little longer in that context, doing so against someone who's already posted and had votes on him is not fruitful. A Townie in that situation either contributes useful opinions or drags out RVS by voting on someone who hasn't yet posted anything meaningful, in order to drag lurkers into the conversation.
I think that RVS against active players is much more productive in the first day or two of the game. If I had used my vote against Jules or Tsunami, I wouldn't get much. One mostly random vote on someone isn't enough to pull them into the conversation. As is, however, I was able to spark a large discussion just by voting for an active player.
@KingTorg: like Lurker said, you are voting for someone for doing exactly what you yourself did. Seems only right that you have a vote on yourself too!
Vote: King Torg
While you are thinking of a way to explain your vote without looking scummy, take a moment to answer one more question. You threw a little bit of dirt Lurker's way with:
@EternalLurker In post #61, you said that as a mafia player you might get myslinched. Was that a typo or purposeful?
What do you think EL was trying to achieve with that post? Were there more options than just the three he presented?
I think that what I did was very different from olli. While my first vote was "devoid of any opinions," it still served it's purpose in pushing along the game and putting myself out into the field. This is completely different from saying: "I'm not going to make any accusations right now because it might make people notice me and think I'm scum." I'll admit was dumb when I said "confirming and not posting" (of course he wouldn't post, the game hasn't started yet!) but that doesn't reduce the fact that he is lurking.
In post #61, I was just confused by the wording. Isn't killing villagers considered a myslynch, and killing a mafia member a 'good' lynch?
@BlueEclipse & EternalLurkerMy Sunray vote was just RVS. My reasoning behind it was:
a) I wanted to be funny. (I have a mentor as well)
b) Sunray was the only active player with a mentor.
I don't really care about the dice rolling comment, it just seems like a natural instinct a new player would have. I'm having a bit of trouble getting reads on people right now (don't have much time, on vacation for the Fourth) but right now I'm getting scum reads on Eclipse and oil***.
Eclipse just feels like he's trying to peg pretty much everyone down as scum, which seems pretty scummy to me. (Correct me If I'm wrong, I'm pretty new to Mafia.)
fugginolli*** seems like he's lurking too much. I understand being unplugged for a few days, but confirming and not posting, and then posting again without making any opinions also seems a bit scummy. Also, anyone who says "dopeboi" deserves to die. Vote: fugginolli*** because of the first reason, not the second.
As for mograppler, I don't think what he's doing is scummy. Calling for no vote IS scummy, but as a new player, it seems completely reasonable to consider doing it.
@EternalLurker In post #61, you said that as a mafia player you might get myslinched. Was that a typo or purposeful?
p.s. How do you quote text? When I try to quote there's just a button that says "post quote" without any place to put text. Do I click that or do something else?
I'm not even trying to defend Golliwag too, I'm actually kind of baffled on this.
This isn't even on my radar at all. Seems town to me. There wasn't even a wagon on him. Its on Folza right now and now me.
In what world was I preventing a wagon onto Golliwag?
Torg Post #1: A requested defense of RVS. I said something and he responded. What a ******* concept.
Torg Post #2: No. It's really not. It's a defense of his vote against Golli***. He voted against Golli*** for a bad first post, I said that his own first post had been similarly bad, and he said that the two first posts were very different, justifying his vote against Golli***. Context.
Torg Post #3: It's an explanation that it was an RVS vote, in response to questions. Again, oh no, how dare he respond to queries? What are you even trying to get at here?
I challenge anyone to quote me anything from Mograppler and say it comes from town.
Takeyourpick. He's consistently shown that he's willing to change his opinion when presented with new evidence, but he's not a pushover jumping from bandwagon to bandwagon either. He strikes exactly the right balance of inertia that I'd expect from an open-minded Townie.
I'm just pointing out the fact that damn near everything you've said is patently false, and it just so happens that most of what you've said is against those two or myself. If being truthful and logical is a scum-tell for you, then we're going to have some issues. You, on the other hand, are consistently holding people to double-standards based on whether or not they're targeting Golli***, appealing to relationships instead of evidence in constructing your non-arguments, and generally making things up.
Yeah, that does it. Scum-lock initiated. I don't see D_V feasibly climbing out of this hole before deadline.
The scenario was "Sunray may have had some scummy posts, but not enough scummy posts to call him scum." "Nope, that's all of his posts, so I think it's fair to make a judgment." "Oh, fair point."
The Folza wagon was dead. It was created solely to get some activity going. Lurkers being replaced out solved that problem already. Golli*** was the secondary "active-lurker" on everyone's radars. And scum don't wait until a wagon's forming before trying to bail out a scum-buddy; that makes them even more obvious than you're being.
I think that what I did was very different from olli. While my first vote was "devoid of any opinions," it still served it's purpose in pushing along the game and putting myself out into the field. This is completely different from saying: "I'm not going to make any accusations right now because it might make people notice me and think I'm scum." I'll admit was dumb when I said "confirming and not posting" (of course he wouldn't post, the game hasn't started yet!) but that doesn't reduce the fact that he is lurking.
vote: MysticSunray
I agree with your analysis. I had comepletely forgotten about that, and had brushed it off as a joke because I had assumed he posted again. Now I don't think we should put enough votes to get to the next day. I would like to wait until we get the 2 other players active or switched out. Going to day 2 without information on them would be unwise
I wonder if this was a straight up request, or as a result of his post. If it was a request, then i think we might be mislynching. Makes me feel like his post was more of lack of understand and frustration than giving up. Also, the fact that he isn't giving up changes things, tho it does mean that he is still lurking, which isn't good. I want to see him post something today with an explanation on his actions. And please give us some of your reads.
Meanwhile you white knight two players and use white knighting as an attack on me.
Also at this point you've said you hold silence as acceptance.
I attacked everything you said in attack on me. You never responded to it. You accepted what I said by your own standards.
For the record too if you try and go back and respond to them now I'll just straight up post silence is acquiescence is full all caps. It'll be great. You should do it. It will be really fun for me.
I'm just pointing out the fact that damn near everything you've said is patently false, and it just so happens that most of what you've said is against those two or myself. If being truthful and logical is a scum-tell for you, then we're going to have some issues. You, on the other hand, are consistently holding people to double-standards based on whether or not they're targeting Golli***, appealing to relationships instead of evidence in constructing your non-arguments, and generally making things up.
If everything I've said is false then you wouldn't have an argument to be made against it other than that's a lie. Which isn't the case. Please don't use fluff words if you don't even understand the meaning behind them. Saying what I've said is patently false actually is patently false.
I'm not really using Golli*** as a merit at all. I'm confused on this.
You keep saying that. Please explain? I've already asked you to explain this and you blazed past it where I said I wasn't. So you accepted that right?
Well, there's the fact that I'm the only one to really accuse fugg of being scum for my past few posts, then you target me the hardest while ignoring most of the other players. You also consider him neutral for saying nothing of value, which I think is a bit more scummy than my lack of posting.
In post 253, you say that I'm defending my RVS, which is true, because I had to defend my RVS.
Post 256 is just wrong. I said I'd consider voting for you since there were 2 possible ways for me to vote and stay on topic. I did have a moderate scum read on your previous player's posts, so I said that I'd consider voting for you. This is nowhere near an 100% scum accusation.
Sorry for not posting as often as I really should. I've had some family issues, but if they shake out the way they should, I'll be back to normal in a couple of days.
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@Blues like I said bowing to pressure is a null tell.
It's rather interesting that you can consider clear anti-town behavior to be a null tell. As I asked before, provide me with an example - just one - of a basic game where a town player refusing to defend themselves from a wagon is a good thing for the town. Prove to me that you've actually got a reason to consider this even neutral, rather than anti-town - whether I agree or not, I want to see where you get the idea from.
Regarding Torg's posts, I'll first ask that the next time you do something like this you provide the post numbers for reference - it makes it more convenient for people to cross-check your analysis. That said, most of your 'analysis' of his posts boils down to either complaining that he was responding to other people who commented on his RVS posts, or complaining that he was complaining about lack of activity in the time frame where EVERYONE who was active was complaining about inactivity. (See posts #87-#100 - it's all either us complaining about lack of activity, Wheat posting votecounts and prod notices, or Juls showing up and getting jumped on for posting and not providing any actual content with it.) I'll leave you to your opinions regarding the last three posts - I don't agree, necessarily, but oh well.
That all being said... you still never actually answered a couple of my questions/concerns. I'll quote them for you outside of the wall of text, so you don't miss them again.
If you have so much that you feel marks Lurker as scum - far more than you've suggested for Torg - what is it that's keeping you from voting for Lurker?
Lastly, you're saying that you are reading neutral to neutral!town from AudioTsunami's posts. I have to wonder how you are reconciling his recent posts regarding Lurker with a town read, as his posting has seemed (to me) to be clearly anti-town. Not necessarily because he's targeting Lurker, but because he's indicated he's not willing to consider further information, and certainly seems to be actively misinterpreting Lurker's post #61 (whether through malice or ignorance, though I am currently leaning towards the former).
I hope to get responses from you soon that cover these.
@AudioTsunami: This post of yours is rather astounding. You completely fail to respond to anything from my prior post regarding context and how it actually applies, fail to provide any content whatsoever towards anyone else's posts here, you do a very good job of making D_V look like your scumbuddy (whether you're both scum or not), and fail to even register who the ongoing argument between D_V and Lurker is actually concerning. I seriously have to ask - did you actually read anything between your last post and that one?
@Blue for the Lurker thing I'll pretty much lynch him Torg or Mograppler. I've found the scum team, I really couldn't care less which one we hit first.
I'm uncertain what you mean about misrepresenting post 61. Where did he do that?
For examples of players folding. Literally this game MysticSunray. I just don't see it as a tell. You keep saying it is. But I've given reasons it can be either. Either its a new town member being flustered and not knowing how to react to pressure or the same thing can be said about it just replace that word with scum. No one has made an argument for why its a scum tell. Pro-tip if you can replace the word scum with the word town in the argument and it is still basically the same argument its a null tell. Now maybe you can add things together and say well X might be null and Y might be null but X and Y together are scum or town. But this hasn't been done in Folzas case. Its the one and only attack vs Folza.
There is just no way that someone needs to defend their RVS that much. He wasn't responding to things really. Eternal is vastly misrepresenting how those conversations flowed. I mean ****. Eternal was so ready to shut me down even Torg himself said they were all about his RVS, after Eternal tried to white knight him and say they weren't.
Unvote Vote Eternal
That last sentence just convinced me that Torg might somehow be town and against the buddying of Eternal. Eternal on the other hand has gone full something. And hes made up things that actually are patently false such as me caring about the golli*** wagon. I just don't see him as scum. I think its a bad lynch but I haven't attacked anyone for it. I don't even think I've said anyone was scummy for that wagon. I'm at a loss there the fact that he is so sensitive about that is just bizarre.
Man, that's top-tier. Same frickin' post, "Lurker+Torg+Mograppler is scum-team" and "actually Torg might somehow be Town but I'm still gonna chain-read Eternal as scum due to his scum-buddying with Torg". Your chain-reads are nonsensical and yet you keep making them. If you're Town you need to stop your chain-reading, cuz it's terrible.
But I don't think there's any significant chance that you are.
Arguing that people are attacking Folza for baseless reasons is particularly priceless. 1) nago is the one who turned us onto the Folza wagon, and you're town-reading him in spite of that. So you obviously don't believe that bull***** argument either; you're just using it to throw shade, yet again. 2) The Folza wagon is dead and has been since you two replaced in; we explicitly discussed how we were just using it to get some activity going and focus the new players onto a specific conversational topic. So of course its basis was weak: we admitted as much.
I had multiple consecutive posts describing your Golli***-buddying; I'm not repeating myself that much cuz you can't bother to read the first time.
I've responded to everything you've said with which I disagree (unless someone else like Blues and Torg covered it), so trying to reverse the silence-as-acceptance argument is just, as usual, misrepresentation and baseless shade. I may have ignored some parts where you repeated the same thing after I already discredited them, because they're just ridiculous, like how you again just referred to Torg defending his RVS when I'd already described that in detail. (One was NOT an RVS defense, and one was RESPONDING TO A QUESTION WHICH IS NOT A TELL IN ANY WAY.)
So yeah, go ahead and vote me for "defending" someone that you're now Town-reading, cuz that'll be just as logical as everything else you've done thus far.
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I wonder if this was a straight up request, or as a result of his post. If it was a request, then i think we might be mislynching. Makes me feel like his post was more of lack of understand and frustration than giving up. Also, the fact that he isn't giving up changes things, tho it does mean that he is still lurking, which isn't good. I want to see him post something today with an explanation on his actions. And please give us some of your reads.
I'm looking to be more active now, I truly am, and when I get a better framework on reads I will let you know within the next couple real-life days.
@Bloodmoon: You are correct that I have possibly cracked under pressure, but I am confident I can make a full recovery. We'll just have to see what happens in the meantime.
Dealing with moving/housing contracts. I'll give this game some real focus sometime tonight or tomorrow.
I do agree that we should not be reading anything, alignment-wise, into Folza's decision to get a mentor. It would make sense from either side of the fence, town or scum. Mind you, I'm glad that the guy has opted to stick with it, and I'll be keeping my eyes open for what he puts forth now.
@fuggingolli***: I can see your train of thought, but I don't necessarily expect that their both scum. D_V's slot is more likely, though I'm still looking at what Torg's doing as well, just in case. They just seemed a bit too quick to try and call each other out as scum for me to think it's scumbuddies distancing one another.
@Folza: As I mentioned in my comments towards Lurker, I'm willing to give you the chance to defend yourself - always have been. But while you were posting previously, you weren't giving any real defense within the framework of the game itself, and it seemed you were refusing to provide any content posts at all. That's why I had voted on you. So get with your mentor for advice. Present your case - I, at least, am willing to hear it out and see if you can change my mind at this point.
@Rhand, D_V: Sorry - I tend to be fairly verbose in things like this. If you ever need me to summarize a point, or provide a tl;dr version of a post, let me know and I'll be happy to do so.
This is one of those "I'm never going to drink again" moments of which there are so many.
The only reason to address ANYTHING twice unsolicited is because you were unhappy with what your initial response sounded/looked like.
1) I specifically stated in option #2 that my noisiness was on the wrong targets, as a contrast to #1. Clearly this means that the noise was on the right targets in the hypothetical of #1.
2) I addressed the issue again because the post immediately prior to that, Blues' post, which I quoted in the post on which you're basing your entire non-read, brought up the issue again.
If you're gonna tunnel on someone to try to build false Town credibility via faked conviction, at least make an effort to have your argument make some sense. You're basing everything on a single post and you can't even bother to read that post properly.
Lurker's entire post, minus quotes of other posts, is provided above. The bolded parts are where context comes into play.
If you look at the bolded portion of 1) on its own, it says, "I'm town, and my noisiness is scaring the Mafia." Why would his noisiness be scaring them? It doesn't say it here.
Now look at the bolded portion of 2) on its own. It says, "I'm town, but my noisiness is on all the wrong targets, so the Mafia doesn't care." Here, the statement is that his noisiness would not be scaring the Mafia. The italicized part provides needed context, though. Why wouldn't the Mafia be scared if he's being noisy? Because he's being noisy about the wrong targets.
So look at context. 2) establishes the circumstances where the Mafia wouldn't care about him being noisy - when he's being noisy about the wrong targets. So what circumstances does that leave for 1) to apply, where his noisiness would scare the Mafia? When his noisiness is not on the wrong targets - meaning he's being noisy about the Mafia themselves. Obviously, it's not as cut and dried as that (as his noisiness doesn't matter unless he can persuade people to listen, meaning there are other variables to consider when trying to predict a scum response if he's town), but I'm pretty sure this would be elementary school level reading comprehension to parse out the first portion based on additional context clues provided in the second.
Here's the post from Mog:
#56 was a response to the following part:
while #61 was a response to the following:
as well as a response to this, in my #60:
You see? #56 was a joke made off of a small portion of the post, while #61 was a serious response not only to Mograppler's comments of substance in the post, but also to another person's comments on the same matter that occurred after #56. That I'm having to spell this out to you in this level of detail really makes me think of one of two possibilities. That you're just exceptionally bad at seeing context, or that you're intentionally misreading these things to try and push a lynch on Lurker. One's simply annoying, but can be remedied if you work on it, while the other is a scumtell. Which would you prefer me to believe?
Contrast that with Eternal Lurker who is rapidly moving down on my scum list for his attempt to lynch anyone who he sees as trying to take the reigns from him.
My current list is thus.
10. BluesEclipse
See above
1. JulsSkogs (m. Ecophagy)
Seems new, but seems town, post 162 is very towny I don't agree with it but its a towny attack.
3. Rhand (r. Sandmummy)
I actually think Rhands town the more hes posted. Hes trying, I don't want to lynch him right now that says something to me.
6. nagobcnik
I agree with a lot of what nago has said maybe not the conclusion a 100%, but with the logic used. And it reads as town to me. I'm also suspicious that this is a gimmick which may change my read.
8. Folza (m. shadowlancerx)
I've talked about Folza before but I'm just not getting a scum read from him.
4. AudioTsunami
I'm not certain how I feel about Audio, I'm leaning town but more neutral town. Not a lot of content from their posts.
12. Bloodmoon0324 (m. Prophylaxis)
Seems town has said things about the game state in a progress minded way and has been attempting to scum hunt.
5. fuggingolli***
Seems town to me. Not a lot of content more neutral but not getting any scum
7. EternalLurker
I love eternal hes got it all imo.
First post vote a scum buddy? Check Second vote move to weak player and keep it there? Check. Set up speculation? Check. Defending himself or saying things that don't progress the game state? Check.
Talking about Flavor mechanics? Check. Voting another weak player? Check.
Any actual scum hunting noperino.
9. Mograppler
I've talked about this before. They just ooze scum.
2. King Torg (m. Iso)
Hes just 100% scum. That and his mentors Iso so hes even more likely to be scum. Nothing about King Torg is town.
This just reads as scum to me.
So with that said
Unvote Vote King Torg
Where the actual **** do you get this *****? Literally none of my votes have been on people who are trying to present themselves as town leaders. I've pressure-voted lurkers, and I worked with nago and BluesEclipse on building a wagon on one of the lurkers to get some activity going; I even switched over to nago's choice rather than forcing him to join mine. I've never once presented myself as the leader nor attacked anyone who's tried to do so. Present a ******* quote instead of talking out of your ass.
We've had altogether too little from fug for a read in either direction IMO, really. Seems premature.
******* amazing.
"Vote a scum buddy"? You're chain-reading me off your scum-read of Mograppler, and the multiple posts I make after that are altogether far too much early interaction with Mograppler for there to be even the slightest chance he's my scum-buddy. I'd have to be idiotic and suicidal to spend several of my first posts like that. So chain-reading is trash, your particular chain is trash, and your scum-read on the first link of the chain is trash. This is a great start.
"Second vote"? What, you mean when I'm still RVS-ing early on to get people to post, cuz it's clear we've got a major lurking issue? Sure, read into RVS cuz that'll get you far.
"Set up speculation"? You mean respond to speculation? Are you even trying to read the thread?
"Defending himself"? I wouldn't have to keep doing that if y'all wouldn't keep making trash reads.
"Talking about Flavor mechanics"? You mean explaining that flavor generally doesn't matter in response to a newbie question about it? Again, READ.
"Voting another weak player"? Did you not ******* read how nago (the guy you are Town-reading) asked me to do that, LITERALLY ONE POST BEFORE? And how BluesEclipse (the other guy you are Town-reading) joined the two of us right afterwards, yet somehow my doing it is suspicious while him doing it is fine in your books?
Incredibly stupid ***** like this is why I'm forced to waste posts and time and sanity defending myself.
Your entire "read" was based on his focus on a Day One No Lynch (unless there's more information you'd like to share, but you say you've "talked about this before" and that was all you mentioned). We all discussed this already. You can scum-read it if you'd like, but it's possibly an honest mistake, and given that almost everything he's posted since then has been pretty Townie, it's best to give him the benefit of the doubt on that. Unless you'd like to continue picking and choosing your evidence on him as you have on me, so that his one early mistake is a scum-tell and every post he's made since then is irrelevant for you.
...Jesus.
**** the Folza wagon; my vote's going back to the slot where it's always belonged.
Vote: D_V
I mean, just look at this ***** here: There's literally nothing with which he can "disagree" when a person simply states "Hey it's weird that this guy's still not providing content given what's going on at the moment". So he dulls Juls' statement to defend Golli*** by saying "I don't agree with it BUT HEY I'M NOT DISCREDITING JULS OR ANYTHING, PROMISE". Classic tactic to defend a scum-buddy through emotion rather than logic: don't actually argue against the content (since it's not arguable in this situation), just say "I don't agree but I still think you're Town, so let's be friends".
And I know about half of you already wanted to wagon Golli***, while the other half were with me on D_V's slot. So you know these two are independently scummy and they're apparently buddied. Seems pretty cut and dry to me at this point.
Man, I'm starting to wonder if D_V is just being this incredibly obvious about his buddying with Golli*** in order to drag down a random Townie when he gets lynched; maybe Golli*** is totally innocent. Whatever. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it. Let's just bury D_V for now and figure out where to go from there.
@EL: do you often react aggressively when someone accuses you?
I'm not too sure what to think of Blues now. His response is good, but that can be because he is a good player.
D_V white knights him, which I was expecting from scum!D_V but also from town!D_V if he really believes what he says.
I do get the feeling D_V ignored part of my case tho, so I think D_V is more likely scum than town here.
@D_V: can you show me those towntells from Blues please? And also make a case on Kingtorgs?
Keeping my vote where it is for now, but will probably move when I get responses to my post.
About DV: you misinterpret my accusation there. What he did was post a typical buddy-line there. If you are scum, that post makes him very likely to be scum with you. The ending of your post there talking about that feels a bit like omgus/chainsaw. "Leave me an dmy buddy alone."
I'm not sure yet, and EL's reaction to DV seriously gives me pause, but if one of you or DV flips scum, I will lynch the other one in a heartbeat.
I will reread and get a t/s out.
I'm aggressive when people are clearly making ***** up left and right in their accusations, regardless of whether or not I'm the target. Even worse than all the complete lies he said about me is his final vote on Torg. If he actually believed any of the ***** he'd said about me, he'd be voting me, cuz his fake reasons for calling me scum are far stronger and more plentiful than his fake reasons for voting Torg. The fact that he then voted Torg in spite of that shows that he doesn't really believe anything he said about me, and knows he couldn't back it up if I were his actual vote target; he just decided to throw baseless shade my way while voting Torg in support of his scum-buddy. (Golli*** also voted Torg, in case the connections between those two weren't clear enough yet.)
I didn't ask if you always react aggressively. I know you don't; I asked if you often do it.
Anyways, I got the answer I was looking for from you.
vote: D_V
Blues can wait.
@D_V: You're calling Torg out as 100% scum, based off of his initial concern with Mog's push for no-lynch (which I was seeing as scummy at the time myself), as well as his concern with lurkers (which I consider to be sensible - unfortunately, we can't take the stance of 'ignore them and they'll go away' in this). I don't see those as enough to claim him as 100% scum by any means - nor do I consider his posting enough to clear him (since my list, he's moved from weak town lean to weak scum lean). So could you elaborate on what other tells you're seeing from him that you feel are enough to lock him as scum above anyone else?
Regarding Lurker, your arguments for him being scum are somewhat lacking, especially after my review of his posts. The initial votes, first on Mog, then on Sunray, are RVS votes - even if he and Mog do both turn out to be scum, the vote on Sunray was early enough that he couldn't be classified as a weak player. I can't consider that vote a scumtell. To say he set up speculation isn't entirely unfounded - at the time, there were only 3 to 4 of us posting, so we had little more than speculation available for the others. All of us who were active at the time indulged in some speculation regarding the quieter players, as we had nothing more available to us regarding them. Not a scumtell, unless you're trying to argue it is scummy for all of the active players in the game to speculate about the inactives. Defending himself at this stage of the game should not be considered a scumtell under any circumstances - unless you can point me to a gamestate where a townie would benefit from being lynched on D1. This is my main issue with Folza - simply bowing to pressure and refusing to defend yourself when nothing can be gained (with any certainty) from your lynch would be anti-town. The discussion of flavor vs mechanics was in direct reply to someone commenting that they expected roleplaying from the game, and felt we should be using flavor more - not a scumtell, but rather addressing a concern (and I commented on the matter as well). Voting another weak player, in Folza - Lurker had concerns about Folza prior to that vote, but was not alone in that. Nago had concerns about Folza as well (and was the first to vote for Folza), and I had expressed concerns on him prior to that, had him as one of my top scumreads, and shifted my own vote to him as well immediately after Lurker and nago. As I've stated before, I still have my concerns with Folza (see my previous comment regarding refusal to defend). So, again, not something I am inclined to view as a scumtell. Whether or not you agree with my viewpoints here is up to you, but I do have one question regarding this.
If you have so much that you feel marks Lurker as scum - far more than you've suggested for Torg - what is it that's keeping you from voting for Lurker?
Also, you say that you read nago as town, but have concerns that this is a gimmick. What is causing those concerns?
Lastly, you're saying that you are reading neutral to neutral!town from AudioTsunami's posts. I have to wonder how you are reconciling his recent posts regarding Lurker with a town read, as his posting has seemed (to me) to be clearly anti-town. Not necessarily because he's targeting Lurker, but because he's indicated he's not willing to consider further information, and certainly seems to be actively misinterpreting Lurker's post #61 (whether through malice or ignorance, though I am currently leaning towards the former).
You've managed to raise several flags for me here - more than Folza, more than Audio, and more than anyone else I've been looking at. The fact that you seem to be intent on arguing behaviors that don't really offer any benefit to the town under any circumstances as pro-town doesn't cast a positive light on your own actions.
Unvote, Vote: D_V
FOS: Folza, AudioTsunami
I have literally only one concern about Mograppler right now, and, while it's a strong one, I don't think it's applicable to your reads. Namely, it's that he's been following me pretty strongly, in votes and general opinions. I'd like to believe that it's just cuz he's fairly inexperienced, Town-reads me, and feels he should be working with his strongest Town-read until he's gotten enough experience to work more on his own. But I am somewhat worried that he might be Mafia pocketing me.
However, I don't think any worries about pocketing me can fuel your scum-read of him, because that line of argument requires hard-Town-reading me, and I'm not sure you're quite that sold on me being Town just yet.
Maybe because he's scum
Oh man so I've got Rhand voting me, scum and a new town player.
Neat.
@Blues like I said bowing to pressure is a null tell.
Nago's accounts been made for a while. I definitely have a couple of gimick accounts sitting around from many years ago I've never used on purpose.
Regarding Eternal, all of what he is doing is classic scum tells a couple isn't a lot but that many is a lot. He has yet to scum hunt or even actively move towards scum. More than half his posts are really really bad setup analysis. Its a basic setup shouldn't even really be concerned.
King Torg is particular scummy so I'll just over all of their posts right now.
Post 1 confirm
Post 2 Votes Sunray for silly reasons, but its RVS.
Post 3 Votes for a lurker(And lurks himself) CLASSIC, and reads mograppler as towny(Defense of scum mate). And defends his RVS vote(not good).
Post 4 Defends RVS vote again, ugh.
Post 5 Defends RVS vote AGAIN.
Post 6 I can't find anything to do. (I read this as scummy myself because town should be at least trying to town clear people, and scum hunt. Saying nothing to do reads as man I really want a wagon to start.)
Post 7 Literally a scum buddy slip.
Post 8 I'm going to express my opinions, WHAT opinions?
Post 9 Votes folza wagon for silly reasons. Says could be new player behavior and doesn't see it. Why? See his post 6 finally found a wagon to jump on as scum HYPE. I'd vote DV for what reasons? Cause others said so that's why. Hype wagon time.
Post 10 Literally worthless banter. Still thinks I'm scum. Never once did they ever read Mystic as scum. Ever. Find it I dare you.
Its scum guys. Stop being bad lynch it.
Oh I'll hit this too. Interaction with other players means about nothing to me in the sense of "I wouldn't talk to X if they were my scum buddy". I could point to you about 5 games in the last year that I've interacted plenty with my buddies. Lack of interaction sometimes means more than actual interaction and there is a thing called bussing. Like this is so weak. WEAK.
"Votes for a lurker"? There is a difference between someone who's completely inactive, versus someone who's in the game but not actually contributing. The latter kind of lurking is an obvious scum-tell. Torg was voting Golli*** (who you're constantly bending over backwards to defend) for doing the latter kind of lurking, as, again, you'd know if you'd bothered reading, cuz he made it quite clear. (Or you're just choosing to ignore words, as I expect.) And I know you're at least vaguely aware that posting without contributing content is the worst kind of lurking because you specifically said Mograppler was "lurking in plain sight" by doing so. But, of course, when it's Golli*** doing it, it's okay and he shouldn't be voted for it, right?
"Defends RVS vote again"? He's defending his vote on Golli***, which was not an RVS vote; Sunray was his RVS vote. It's becoming increasingly difficult to tell if you're twisting the facts or just too lazy to read.
"Defends RVS vote AGAIN"? Yes, he responds to an accusation, how dare he. Oh, and he responds by saying that he wanted to vote for an active player instead of a lurker in RVS. So you have it listed as a scum-tell that he'd defend an RVS vote on a non-lurker, yet just two lines above you list it as a scum-tell when he does vote for a lurker. You're not even ******* trying to pretend you believe in your arbitrary bull***** reads now.
"Scum buddy slip", sure, let's keep chain-reading off of Mograppler when your scum-read of Mograppler is trash.
"I'm going to express my opinions, WHAT opinions?" ...You mean the ones he lists in the very next sentence?
"Says [Folza's play] could be new player behavior and doesn't see it. Why?" Iunno, maybe for the same reasons Blues and nago didn't see it, and thus they voted Folaz too? But when it's them you're totally okay with it, huh? Voting Folza in that situation is only a scum-tell if it's Torg, because Torg targeted Golli*** and now you gotta chainsaw him hard.
"Never once did they ever read Mystic as scum. Ever. Find it I dare you." Okay, since you asked so nicely. Torg expressed in #145 that Sunray's early posts, while not Townie, weren't "enough" for a lynch in his eyes. I responded in #146 that those posts were literally 100% of Sunray's content, so they had better be "enough". Torg never argued against that; I took that to mean he'd acknowledged my point, especially since my argument was against lurking and he'd already expressed anti-lurking sentiments multiple times with his targeting of Golli***. So I've been quite sure he had a scum-read on Sunray for a while now. I guess subtext isn't your thing, though, given that literal text is already clearly not.
Jesus, I know you're trying your damnedest to chainsaw-defend Golli***, but is it really worth making yourself the guaranteed Day One lynch in the process? Cuz you've just responded to digging yourself a hole by upgrading your shovel to an excavator.
This is a defense of RVS
This is a defense of RVS
This is a defense of RVS.
Neat.
Like he never once expressed finding mystic scummy. Ever.
He then turned around and said I think you're scum to me.
Even if we take your interpretation of events then the scenario becomes this and this is heavily giving the benefit of the doubt.
"I think mystic is slight scum read, but I'm not 100% sure"
"I think you're scum" -After I replace in.
Like WHUT?
Come on man. What you trying to sell me here?
This isn't even on my radar at all. Seems town to me. There wasn't even a wagon on him. Its on Folza right now and now me.
In what world was I preventing a wagon onto Golliwag?
Torg Post #2: No. It's really not. It's a defense of his vote against Golli***. He voted against Golli*** for a bad first post, I said that his own first post had been similarly bad, and he said that the two first posts were very different, justifying his vote against Golli***. Context.
Torg Post #3: It's an explanation that it was an RVS vote, in response to questions. Again, oh no, how dare he respond to queries? What are you even trying to get at here?
Take your pick. He's consistently shown that he's willing to change his opinion when presented with new evidence, but he's not a pushover jumping from bandwagon to bandwagon either. He strikes exactly the right balance of inertia that I'd expect from an open-minded Townie.
I'm not intentionally defending Mograppler or King Torg. Torg is only a shade above neutral in my reads, so I'm quite open to people scum-reading him for legitimate reasons, as I just said earlier. And my first Town-read, Bluesy, was based mostly on him scum-reading Mograppler, as I too was doing at the time. So, as usual, your argument holds absolutely no water.
I'm just pointing out the fact that damn near everything you've said is patently false, and it just so happens that most of what you've said is against those two or myself. If being truthful and logical is a scum-tell for you, then we're going to have some issues. You, on the other hand, are consistently holding people to double-standards based on whether or not they're targeting Golli***, appealing to relationships instead of evidence in constructing your non-arguments, and generally making things up.
Yeah, that does it. Scum-lock initiated. I don't see D_V feasibly climbing out of this hole before deadline.
The Folza wagon was dead. It was created solely to get some activity going. Lurkers being replaced out solved that problem already. Golli*** was the secondary "active-lurker" on everyone's radars. And scum don't wait until a wagon's forming before trying to bail out a scum-buddy; that makes them even more obvious than you're being.
What was his first vote
Oh gee
RVS
This post is scum
This post is scum backing off.
The other post in null.
The only person I've defend is Folza.
Please quote me where I defend Golli***?
Please.
I'll wait.
Meanwhile you white knight two players and use white knighting as an attack on me.
Also at this point you've said you hold silence as acceptance.
I attacked everything you said in attack on me. You never responded to it. You accepted what I said by your own standards.
For the record too if you try and go back and respond to them now I'll just straight up post silence is acquiescence is full all caps. It'll be great. You should do it. It will be really fun for me.
If everything I've said is false then you wouldn't have an argument to be made against it other than that's a lie. Which isn't the case. Please don't use fluff words if you don't even understand the meaning behind them. Saying what I've said is patently false actually is patently false.
I'm not really using Golli*** as a merit at all. I'm confused on this.
You keep saying that. Please explain? I've already asked you to explain this and you blazed past it where I said I wasn't. So you accepted that right?
Well, there's the fact that I'm the only one to really accuse fugg of being scum for my past few posts, then you target me the hardest while ignoring most of the other players. You also consider him neutral for saying nothing of value, which I think is a bit more scummy than my lack of posting.
In post 253, you say that I'm defending my RVS, which is true, because I had to defend my RVS.
Post 256 is just wrong. I said I'd consider voting for you since there were 2 possible ways for me to vote and stay on topic. I did have a moderate scum read on your previous player's posts, so I said that I'd consider voting for you. This is nowhere near an 100% scum accusation.
Sorry for not posting as often as I really should. I've had some family issues, but if they shake out the way they should, I'll be back to normal in a couple of days.
-Barney Stinson
"Hodor"
-Hodor
And the other stuff that makes you think I'm scum. Forgot to mentioning that part.
-Barney Stinson
"Hodor"
-Hodor
It's rather interesting that you can consider clear anti-town behavior to be a null tell. As I asked before, provide me with an example - just one - of a basic game where a town player refusing to defend themselves from a wagon is a good thing for the town. Prove to me that you've actually got a reason to consider this even neutral, rather than anti-town - whether I agree or not, I want to see where you get the idea from.
Regarding Torg's posts, I'll first ask that the next time you do something like this you provide the post numbers for reference - it makes it more convenient for people to cross-check your analysis. That said, most of your 'analysis' of his posts boils down to either complaining that he was responding to other people who commented on his RVS posts, or complaining that he was complaining about lack of activity in the time frame where EVERYONE who was active was complaining about inactivity. (See posts #87-#100 - it's all either us complaining about lack of activity, Wheat posting votecounts and prod notices, or Juls showing up and getting jumped on for posting and not providing any actual content with it.) I'll leave you to your opinions regarding the last three posts - I don't agree, necessarily, but oh well.
That all being said... you still never actually answered a couple of my questions/concerns. I'll quote them for you outside of the wall of text, so you don't miss them again.
I hope to get responses from you soon that cover these.
@AudioTsunami: This post of yours is rather astounding. You completely fail to respond to anything from my prior post regarding context and how it actually applies, fail to provide any content whatsoever towards anyone else's posts here, you do a very good job of making D_V look like your scumbuddy (whether you're both scum or not), and fail to even register who the ongoing argument between D_V and Lurker is actually concerning. I seriously have to ask - did you actually read anything between your last post and that one?
Votecount!
D_V - 3 (EternalLurker, Rhand, BluesEclipse)
EternalLurker - 1 (Folza)
Folza - 2 (nagobcnik, Mograppler)
fuggingolli*** - 3 (King Torg, JulsSkogs, Bloodmoon0324)
King Torg - 1 (D_V)
nagobcnik - 1 (fuggingolli***)
Not Voting - 1 (AudioTsunami)
I'm uncertain what you mean about misrepresenting post 61. Where did he do that?
For examples of players folding. Literally this game MysticSunray. I just don't see it as a tell. You keep saying it is. But I've given reasons it can be either. Either its a new town member being flustered and not knowing how to react to pressure or the same thing can be said about it just replace that word with scum. No one has made an argument for why its a scum tell. Pro-tip if you can replace the word scum with the word town in the argument and it is still basically the same argument its a null tell. Now maybe you can add things together and say well X might be null and Y might be null but X and Y together are scum or town. But this hasn't been done in Folzas case. Its the one and only attack vs Folza.
There is just no way that someone needs to defend their RVS that much. He wasn't responding to things really. Eternal is vastly misrepresenting how those conversations flowed. I mean ****. Eternal was so ready to shut me down even Torg himself said they were all about his RVS, after Eternal tried to white knight him and say they weren't.
Unvote Vote Eternal
That last sentence just convinced me that Torg might somehow be town and against the buddying of Eternal. Eternal on the other hand has gone full something. And hes made up things that actually are patently false such as me caring about the golli*** wagon. I just don't see him as scum. I think its a bad lynch but I haven't attacked anyone for it. I don't even think I've said anyone was scummy for that wagon. I'm at a loss there the fact that he is so sensitive about that is just bizarre.
But I don't think there's any significant chance that you are.
Arguing that people are attacking Folza for baseless reasons is particularly priceless. 1) nago is the one who turned us onto the Folza wagon, and you're town-reading him in spite of that. So you obviously don't believe that bull***** argument either; you're just using it to throw shade, yet again. 2) The Folza wagon is dead and has been since you two replaced in; we explicitly discussed how we were just using it to get some activity going and focus the new players onto a specific conversational topic. So of course its basis was weak: we admitted as much.
I had multiple consecutive posts describing your Golli***-buddying; I'm not repeating myself that much cuz you can't bother to read the first time.
I've responded to everything you've said with which I disagree (unless someone else like Blues and Torg covered it), so trying to reverse the silence-as-acceptance argument is just, as usual, misrepresentation and baseless shade. I may have ignored some parts where you repeated the same thing after I already discredited them, because they're just ridiculous, like how you again just referred to Torg defending his RVS when I'd already described that in detail. (One was NOT an RVS defense, and one was RESPONDING TO A QUESTION WHICH IS NOT A TELL IN ANY WAY.)
So yeah, go ahead and vote me for "defending" someone that you're now Town-reading, cuz that'll be just as logical as everything else you've done thus far.