@Kabazame just so I have your worldview straight; you think Toast is likely scum for pushing you for untrue reasons. You think I'm scum for hopping on your bandwagon with minimal reasoning. And you think Zionite is scum for also hopping on your wagon and bandwagoning it. Then you think my flip makes Zionite more likely to be scum based on our interactions surrounding our push on you.
That seems like a very self centered view of the game.
@Kabazame just so I have your worldview straight; you think Toast is likely scum for pushing you for untrue reasons. You think I'm scum for hopping on your bandwagon with minimal reasoning. And you think Zionite is scum for also hopping on your wagon and bandwagoning it. Then you think my flip makes Zionite more likely to be scum based on our interactions surrounding our push on you.
That seems like a very self centered view of the game.
Meh, it's not my fault scum made it so easy. Regardless, I had a scum read on Zionite before he wagoned me, that just reinforced it. I thought Toast was town at first until he started reaching so hard to get me lynched. As for you, you could have wagoned on anyone and it would have been just as bad. Scum decided to go after me hard (probably because a lot of people voiced suspicion of my non-voting, I'm new here and my playstyle kind of clashes with the meta sometimes), nothing I can do about that.
My town reads have nothing to do with me either, and I even think LnGrrR is probably town. Jey K leaning scum not because of anything related to myself. You just picked out the three out of like 10 reads I posted that related to me. Of course, that's about what I expect from scum!
Well, I'm glad someone else brought up the possibility of Zionite and Grapefruit distancing.
Seems a little blatant, though; Zionite defending Grapefruit for no actual reason, and refusal to elaborate.
Grapefruit did the same thing earlier, when he said "Zion is town but don't ask why" and refused to explain the read. It's like they couldn't even fake a reason to read each other as town so they just don't explain it. Now that Grapefruit feels like he has a high chance of dying, he doesn't want Zion linked to him.
For the record I still think Zion is more likely town than not. Just a little worried that he's town reading me without stated reason when people are saying I'm lock scum. Well not so much town reading me as agreeing with me that Kaba is likely scum.
@Kabazame Your point is fair that I ignored your town reads in making that statement. What was your original reasoning on Zion being scum before he hopped on your wagon? In my recollection there wasn't much to base the read off before that. As for Toast I strongly disagree with your case here. I feel like you must either be scum or blinded by the fact that he's pushing you to have a scum read on him. I have nothing but good vibes coming off Toast and I find his arguments on you in particular and his worldview as a whole very compelling and likely to be town. I get that you feel like he's misrepresenting you, but I just don't see it.
Oh jeez. I am probably not going to be free most of Saturday, and I just realized the deadline is on Sunday. I really shouldn't be posting right now when I have a billion other things to do, but KZ being on the chopping block is really not cool with me when deadline's in three days.
Still not buying Toast as scum; he looks much more like tunneled Town. But I'll cross that bridge if we get to it, since he's in no danger of being lynched toDay anyway and I don't have a huge amount of time to spare.
Since Grapefruit and Toastboy asked me why KZ's my top Town-read...I'm certainly not alone in Town-reading him, but he does seem to be about as polarizing as, well, me. So here are a few notes.
1) Initial refusal to vote and all that jazz. Obviously can just be a playstyle difference, but if we all explain why we prefer him voting (mostly, voting leaves records for us to analyze) and he still doesn't do it, that's anti-Town behavior. Thankfully, that didn't happen. His transition into his first vote looked very organic: after a third person told him very clearly why he should vote, he explained his reasons for holding back his vote all this time, then permanently planted his vote on a player who he's clearly established as his strongest scum-read, which is consistent behavior from someone who entered the thread by saying he doesn't like throwing weak votes around.
2) Buddying up to me. He's taken practically every opportunity he can to say that he's Town-reading me or to use me as a counter-example to people he's scum-reading. The thing is, this has mostly happened after I voted the other person who did that (and I'm still hard-scum-reading that person). If he's scum pocketing me despite seeing my reaction to Tennis doing the same, then he's the ballsiest scum in the world, especially doing that while there's already so much attention on him for having not voted earlier. And if he's scum not intentionally pocketing me, then blatantly Town-reading me when people have been so divided on me is throwing away a fairly viable mislynch possibility. This looks like he's legitimately Town-reading me and trying to work with me. Obviously, since I can't prove my alignment, this isn't useful information for other people, but it's a factor in why I'm Town-reading him.
3) Consistent playstyle. He just hasn't had significant logical inconsistencies in his arguments, and his posting style is consistent with someone who's used to relatively shorter Days. (That's why he agreed with breaking out of RVS quickly and getting to the meat of the game, since he's not used to having plenty of time to **** around at game start; that's why he's careful with his vote, cuz he's not used to Days that are long enough for him to swap his vote around plenty of times; and that's why his activity's picked up in the last few days as deadline approaches.)
4) Reasonable reads progressions. Expressed early issues with Latin, for example, but considered Latin's reactions to the pressure to be Townie, and slowly changed his view. This one's kinda NAI because Latin's so widely Town-read that rocking the boat here would be dangerous. But still, he's consistent about shifting his reads by only small amounts with each observation he makes, and -- contrary to Grapefruit's claims -- the reads are not self-centered at all. He was leaning scum on Zionite, still didn't lock onto Zionite in spite of his observation about this pretty scummy shade-post Zionite made against him, and finally called Zionite scum when Zionite made a post that wasn't directed towards KZ at all. He's had multiple reasons to scum-read Rodemy (like here) but still considers Rodemy mostly null. He's just so cautious about declaring people scum, yet is fairly okay with Town-reading people, that the only way he's scum is if he's being the good cop to someone else's bad cop; otherwise he's closing off too many mislynch opportunities for no real benefit. And the only bad cops I see as potentially aligned with KZ are Rodemy and Tennis, both of whom I'm scum-reading, so I have absolutely no interest in lynching KZ before either of those (probably Rodemy first, given that Tennis has significantly improved in the last few pages while Rod just soft-claimed scum).
and that's all the time I've got at the moment {:^#{{
1) Initial refusal to vote and all that jazz. Obviously can just be a playstyle difference, but if we all explain why we prefer him voting (mostly, voting leaves records for us to analyze) and he still doesn't do it, that's anti-Town behavior. Thankfully, that didn't happen. His transition into his first vote looked very organic: after a third person told him very clearly why he should vote, he explained his reasons for holding back his vote all this time, then permanently planted his vote on a player who he's clearly established as his strongest scum-read, which is consistent behavior from someone who entered the thread by saying he doesn't like throwing weak votes around.
I see this reasoning (without the obvious benefit of knowing my alignment) to suggest a null read, and am a bit lost on how the words you said translate to a town tell. Showing conviction with a vote is good. But refusing to vote that long regardless of reasoning doesn't seem like it should garner a town read.
2) Buddying up to me. He's taken practically every opportunity he can to say that he's Town-reading me or to use me as a counter-example to people he's scum-reading. The thing is, this has mostly happened after I voted the other person who did that (and I'm still hard-scum-reading that person). If he's scum pocketing me despite seeing my reaction to Tennis doing the same, then he's the ballsiest scum in the world, especially doing that while there's already so much attention on him for having not voted earlier. And if he's scum not intentionally pocketing me, then blatantly Town-reading me when people have been so divided on me is throwing away a fairly viable mislynch possibility. This looks like he's legitimately Town-reading me and trying to work with me. Obviously, since I can't prove my alignment, this isn't useful information for other people, but it's a factor in why I'm Town-reading him.
This just baffles me. You explicitly scum read Pa Tennis for similar behavior but because Kaba town read you afterwards you town read him for it? Can you explain the difference between Tennis' read and Kaba's read? I am struggling to see how you can form a strong read based off the timing of similar behaviors. Especially when elsewhere people are being strongly critical of following other's reasoning even if the leader is being scum read as well.
3) Consistent playstyle. He just hasn't had significant logical inconsistencies in his arguments, and his posting style is consistent with someone who's used to relatively shorter Days. (That's why he agreed with breaking out of RVS quickly and getting to the meat of the game, since he's not used to having plenty of time to **** around at game start; that's why he's careful with his vote, cuz he's not used to Days that are long enough for him to swap his vote around plenty of times; and that's why his activity's picked up in the last few days as deadline approaches.)
You are reading intent into behavior pretty heavily there, but I largely agree with you.
4) Reasonable reads progressions. Expressed early issues with Latin, for example, but considered Latin's reactions to the pressure to be Townie, and slowly changed his view. This one's kinda NAI because Latin's so widely Town-read that rocking the boat here would be dangerous. But still, he's consistent about shifting his reads by only small amounts with each observation he makes, and -- contrary to Grapefruit's claims -- the reads are not self-centered at all. He was leaning scum on Zionite, still didn't lock onto Zionite in spite of his observation about this pretty scummy shade-post Zionite made against him, and finally called Zionite scum when Zionite made a post that wasn't directed towards KZ at all. He's had multiple reasons to scum-read Rodemy (like here) but still considers Rodemy mostly null. He's just so cautious about declaring people scum, yet is fairly okay with Town-reading people, that the only way he's scum is if he's being the good cop to someone else's bad cop; otherwise he's closing off too many mislynch opportunities for no real benefit. And the only bad cops I see as potentially aligned with KZ are Rodemy and Tennis, both of whom I'm scum-reading, so I have absolutely no interest in lynching KZ before either of those (probably Rodemy first, given that Tennis has significantly improved in the last few pages while Rod just soft-claimed scum).
and that's all the time I've got at the moment {:^#{{
Okay this last one has me convinced that you're in a tunnel here because the quotes you provided do the opposite of assure me he's town.
First you quote his response to this post, which you call a scummy shade post.
Kabazame looks more scummy in this exchange than grapefruit.
This might be a semantics thing but there is no shade in that post. It's an unsupported read. In my experience shading is used when someone is besmirching character while not making a read. Which clearly isn't the case here. Anyway you're awarding town points for not OMGUS'ing that post. He doesn't really engage with it either and is using to draw a comparison between my post and Zion's. He asks for follow up but doesn't have any particular question about the read. Then in your effort to show Kaba's reads aren't self centered you quote a post which is an at best NAI and at worst scummy post discrediting Zion for a valid strategy while not engaging with behavior. Which is a classic scum tool. So yeah, his progression there isn't explicitly self centered as I had accused, but it's also not particularly townie as you suggest.
Your secondary point of being slow to scum read but quick to town read is interesting. And in looking at it I just realized I'd been misreading Kaba's side of the town hunting debate this whole time. I thought he was anti town block based on that reply, but he clearly isn't. I need to reread. In my mind I had him taking these behaviors while having an anti-town hunting stance... Ughh... Need to reevaluate.
See this is why I'd just rather not post. I'm not great at day 1, guys. I'd rather just chill instead of forcing myself to post. I'm a huge distraction/red herring every time. My reads aren't even that great.
The Grapefruit distancing me thing is bunk because hey, I'm not scum. Your reads happen to be wrong. He probably isn't scum either. Why can't I just have a read on someone without being their buddy, or pocketing them? What makes the difference?
So now I'm at the crossroads where I can play how I want, or I can spend all this time defending myself and hearing what everyone thinks about me instead of other players. Great, exactly what I was trying to avoid.
Unvote V/LA until Sunday
I know it doesn't do you any favors if you are town, thank you for understanding.
Preeetty sure Zionite's "I'm bad at D1" thing is false, based on past games I've read. Unless D1 apathy is a new meta for him.
I'll have to double check. I'll probably also look at all of Zionite's posts and try to get a Real Read on him. Right now I wouldn't mind killing him, from what little content I've seen.
I see this reasoning (without the obvious benefit of knowing my alignment) to suggest a null read, and am a bit lost on how the words you said translate to a town tell. Showing conviction with a vote is good. But refusing to vote that long regardless of reasoning doesn't seem like it should garner a town read.
"Regardless of reasoning"? Reasoning is generally much more important than end results in terms of indicating alignment. Otherwise all Townies would have to scum-read whoever votes them.
Anyway, the overall incident was null-ish, leaning Town. I shoulda specified that I wasn't really using that to Town-read him, simply showing why it wasn't a reason to scum-read him as many others were doing. Again, typed that post in a bit of a rush, sorry.
This just baffles me. You explicitly scum read Pa Tennis for similar behavior but because Kaba town read you afterwards you town read him for it? Can you explain the difference between Tennis' read and Kaba's read? I am struggling to see how you can form a strong read based off the timing of similar behaviors. Especially when elsewhere people are being strongly critical of following other's reasoning even if the leader is being scum read as well.
First of all, I wouldn't be critical of following other people's reasoning if it's good reasoning. That's silly. Dunno if/why others are doing that. Acknowledging that someone else made a good argument is not a scum-tell.
Anyway, timing is key in analyzing plenty of behavioral tells. Otherwise the concept of bandwagon votes wouldn't be a thing.
On top of timing, though, he's clearly buddying me but it's not the same sorta thing that I thought Tennis was doing by pocketing me. As I illustrated in that post, literally all of Tennis' first seven posts outside of his random vote seemed to be intended to pocket me. KZ, on the other hand, was strongly buddying me but not to the exclusion of doing other useful things with his posts.
This might be a semantics thing but there is no shade in that post. It's an unsupported read. In my experience shading is used when someone is besmirching character while not making a read. Which clearly isn't the case here.
A lot of reads are "semantics things". If I'd held Zionite's view of the exchange between you two, I'd've said "Grapefruit seems the Townier of the two". Talking about who seems "more scummy" instead? That looks like diction which comes from the mentality of wanting to keep all your lynch options open, and it's especially awkward wording when it comes from someone who criticized JeY's read of shadow vs me as somehow being Mafia-vs-Mafia theater.
Anyway you're awarding town points for not OMGUS'ing that post. He doesn't really engage with it either and is using to draw a comparison between my post and Zion's. He asks for follow up but doesn't have any particular question about the read.
Which...is a pretty Townie thing to do, still trying to give Zionite the benefit of the doubt but hoping for more clarity than has been provided thus far? Not sure where you have a problem with that.
Then in your effort to show Kaba's reads aren't self centered you quote a post which is an at best NAI and at worst scummy post discrediting Zion for a valid strategy while not engaging with behavior. Which is a classic scum tool.
Uh. No. Saying that "town hunting shouldn't be a goal" is quite in line with Zionite's previous posting which, as I said, seemed to be intended to keep all his lynch options open. "Valid strategy", really? Scum-hunting vs Town-hunting is kind of timing-dependent and generally NAI, but specifically shutting down other people's Town-hunting attempts was, in combination with his previous behavior, something for which I immediately scum-read Zionite too; I have no issue with KZ's read there.
Your secondary point of being slow to scum read but quick to town read is interesting. And in looking at it I just realized I'd been misreading Kaba's side of the town hunting debate this whole time. I thought he was anti town block based on that reply, but he clearly isn't. I need to reread. In my mind I had him taking these behaviors while having an anti-town hunting stance... Ughh... Need to reevaluate.
On the bright side, this paragraph from you is Townie. Doesn't override everything else yet, but at least there's that.
Okay so interesting note EternalLurker. You call Zionite out the language of "Kaba being more scummy". As opposed to him saying grape is more townie. And paint that as a scum tell of keeping lynches open. But for a player who believes that scum hunting is the more important hunt that would be the natural diction.
Also after having this conversation with you the idea that you consider Kabazame lock town is still raising my eyebrows. One of your 4 points you admit is a null tell and your stance on Kaba/Pa Tennis is crazy even after the linked ISO. I don't get how you can have multiple people friending with you and be so comfortable declaring one lock town and the other scum.
Also you getting town vibes from me for agreeing with you in that last paragraph tells me you're very likely to be town, just maybe struggling to find a footing for reads that don't revolve around you. Because of all the things to town read me for, slightly backing down my stance on Kabazame should not be one of them.
@Kabazame Your point is fair that I ignored your town reads in making that statement. What was your original reasoning on Zion being scum before he hopped on your wagon? In my recollection there wasn't much to base the read off before that. As for Toast I strongly disagree with your case here. I feel like you must either be scum or blinded by the fact that he's pushing you to have a scum read on him. I have nothing but good vibes coming off Toast and I find his arguments on you in particular and his worldview as a whole very compelling and likely to be town. I get that you feel like he's misrepresenting you, but I just don't see it.
Zion barely posted, but when he did he didn't really say much and usually showed up right after someone mentioned him (contrast that to Anak, who posted about as infrequently but actually made points and provided meaningful content). Then he started posting a lot of reads without explaining them which I didn't like. Also saying town-hunting isn't a good goal is scummy. I think EL mentioned it, but town hunting is actually very townie behavior, because you're basically eliminating potential mislynches you could force. Scum wants to keep their options open, and if the flip on a read and try to lynch them it's going to look awful, so it doesn't really benefit scum to do it other than trying to look town.
As for Toast, I explained this before. But seriously that majority of his points aren't related to alignment at all. I can make a detailed post about it. EL actually went through and explained why my actions make sense from a town perspective, but Toast doesn't actually explain why any of it makes sense from a scum perspective
"And then Kabazame goes full hog in responding to me under the guise of explaining that I'm mafia in #365 because EternalLurker threatens to change his read. This implies that his derision of my points a few moments ago was feigned. "
This is not true (Lurker confirmed this). Also, I made it clear I didn't care to debate with him, but if someone I'm reading as town wants an explanation I'll provide it. If he's town and I'm scum and he's going in on me, wouldn't I be worried and try to convince him I'm town? (That's wifom I guess). But I'm pretty sure he's scum so there's no value in trying to convince him of something he already knows. EL doesn't know though so I'll explain it to him. Once again though he twists it to make me look bad.
"And yet you were insistent to the point of being genuine of withholding your vote up until this point. To be fair, I don't think this is much of a point against you, but it ties Anak to you should you flip as Mafia. "
At least he admitted this isn't "much of a point" against me, but he leaves the door open to lynch Anak if the need arises. Look at his reads leads and you'll see a lot of this! A lot of leans and "for now"s and nulls. Doesn't commit to anything except me being scum and Pa Tennis being Town. Once again, he ignores the fact that I said I would vote when I decided it was necessary, and Grapefruit made a very scummy post so I voted. It's not like I said I wouldn't vote until a certain time or something, I said I would vote when someone deserved it!
"I also commetned on the structure of your post as being similar to Anak's ie sarcastic assertion that Grapefruit is obv scum, vote, explanation.
The crux of both of your points is Grapefruit's vote following me, not providing analysis of his own. Sure, you go further saying he's “buddying up to me” but in essence it's the same point."
Has a problem with Anak and I having a similar structure. Doesn't have a problem with Grapefruit literally just taking his read. lol
"Let me explain further. Many of your reads thus far have been “scum does/doesn't do x. Y did x. Therefore scummy/not scummy” or variations with “town” insctead of scum. This is simplistic to the extreme. I'm not condemning you for poor analysis, that's not a tell, I'm saying the frequency at which you use these arguments reveals a superficiality with which you are viewing players that is indicative of a mafia alignment – you are pretending to analyse the game rather than actually analysing it."
My reads are simplistic and I'm not analyzing the game... yet he had Zion as a slight town read when he literally doesn't even explain his reads at all. He also doesn't have a problem with Grapefruit not explaining his reads, or just stealing reads... OK
"That does not explain the timing of you newly fervent activity (which is now even further renewed to an exaggerated level) that matches my attacks on you. Surely if you were used to 48 hour days you would have been posting like this from the off?"
This doesn't make sense. If you have homework do every two days and suddenly you get a project do in two weeks, you're not going to work hard on it the first couple days (if you do it at all, I'd probably wait until a few days before it was due...) He refuses to understand that I would start slow when I don't know anyone here, don't know the meta, and am used to much shorter days. Obviously it's going to take me a bit to get my footing, and I'm not going to have the same sense of urgency when I have 12 extra days. I don't think he's legitimately oblivious enough to not realize there's an adjustment period here, so I think he's just reaching for stuff
"Your tone noticeably shifted to a more extraverted and self-assured style with after you voted Grapefruit and people agreed with you. Success gives you confidence. I think it's a mark of letting your guard down."
I came out of the gates and went after SL for his word choice, refused to random vote, and didn't bend when people said I should vote someone. So I'm not sure how I was ever not confident. He doesn't explain how I'm more "self-assured" when I've actually just done things my own way this whole time, even when most of the game didn't agree with me
@Shadow
I'd previously rated Zion as Null/scum based on my opinion that he wasn't posting a lot of content. I'm interested in refining my reads on everyone as information becomes available. I thought that was the point.
Is there a reason you don't want me refining my reads?
You have 9 people listed in your Null section, but you specifically chose Zionite to comment to about refining your read on. Why? What made him special?
======
In related news, I just skimmed back through Zionite in horsemen, and he doesn't feel the same at all.
@Zionite: how much of your play this game was/is affected by your irritation with Lurker?I know I missed questions, I am not going to look back through for them right now for lack of time/energy, can those who asked either re-ask or link me back to them?
Still not seeing it Killjoy. You made a single weak statement. Grapefruit hard defended rodemy while giving a null read. He basically took my argument and said that's just rodemy, therefore he's town. But you're pretty close to getting your wish of me scumreading you so that's cool.
Full agreement on tubba=noobtown. Already talked about it a bit but Latin did it better.
How the hell do you not see it? I've explained it multple times now.
And I'm not sure I agree about Tubba. I have two problems: He's laying on the noob card WAY too hard, and is, at the same time, being overly cautious. Like, more than is believable.
@Killjoy Because I did believe that Blues was townie not lock town, but more townie than not. Gave me a very similar vibe to Study Latin who I'm also town reading. And no I don't buy EL's theory that Blue copied Latin's style for town reads. That's a silly argument.
...its really not though. From the perspective of /everyone but you/ your opinion on your predecessor is pointless because obviously you KNOW his alignment, and trying to convince us that /you believe/ that he was town is, at best, hollow and insincere. So no, not a silly argument.
Anaklusmos – I dislike his connection to Kabazame but nothing really on him personally yet.
Grapefruit21 – I don't see much nefarious or positive going on here. His reads seem exaggerated but I think that replacement jitters more than anything. Wait and see,
EternalLurker – I'm happy leaving him as town for now. I'm not a fan of his posting style but he's analysing the game and engaging in a way I find very positive.
JeyK – 'gut reads' seem laboured, logical inconsistencies and shallow reasoning. Leaning scum.
Kabazame – Scum, I've been quite clear.
Killjoy – Null. He hans't put himself out there much.
LnGrrrR – Seems to be poking without much substance. On the scum side of netural.
Pa Tennis – Town. He's trying to be myterious but coming out of his shell more in posting style and the triumphant town when he thinks he's found scum comes off as positive.
Rhand – nothing.
Rodemy – leaning scum. None of his votes stick, very defensive and has a mentality that he is being persecuted and picked out.
Shadowlancer – Seems to be hanging out in the background not contributing anything, I am wary.
Study Latin – leaning town. Seems innocent enough and appears motivating in genuinely analysing play.
Tubba Fett – the only thing for certain is that he is new. Leanign town for similar reasons to StudyLatin, but less so.
Vaimes – nothing of consequence.
Zionite – On the town side of neutral but only on general feel.
...This is what you have right now? Given how much you've said on others, I'd have assumed this would have more.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
You call Zionite out the language of "Kaba being more scummy". As opposed to him saying grape is more townie. And paint that as a scum tell of keeping lynches open. But for a player who believes that scum hunting is the more important hunt that would be the natural diction.
Dunno about "natural", but I do agree it's not a strong scum-tell. That's why I'm not really scum-reading Zionite for it. My immediate reaction, however, was to do so, which is why I can certainly understand KZ having the same reaction; I just wasn't in the thread at the time to post my immediate response, and by the time I was able to post I'd thought about it more and decided it wasn't as bad as it'd initially seemed.
Also after having this conversation with you the idea that you consider Kabazame lock town is still raising my eyebrows. One of your 4 points you admit is a null tell and your stance on Kaba/Pa Tennis is crazy even after the linked ISO. I don't get how you can have multiple people friending with you and be so comfortable declaring one lock town and the other scum.
Well, I just explained that, so I'll chalk this up to different Mafia experiences. Timing of behavior is extremely key in my reads.
Also you getting town vibes from me for agreeing with you in that last paragraph tells me you're very likely to be town, just maybe struggling to find a footing for reads that don't revolve around you. Because of all the things to town read me for, slightly backing down my stance on Kabazame should not be one of them.
Again, reasons are more important than results. I don't care about you changing your opinion, just the reasons for which you do so. Not gonna go into too much detail about how that particular reasoning was Townie (especially since it's only slightly Townie), cuz if it's not evident to this meta then I'd just be giving scum too much information about how to act to evoke Town-reads from me.
...This is what you have right now? Given how much you've said on others, I'd have assumed this would have more.
Given the "said on others" line, I assume you're just referring to what Toast has just on you, and the fact that it's null? I mean...you hadn't said too much at that point, to be fair. I don't mind most of Toast's other reads, and I don't think they're lacking just because they're written concisely. (Heck, I even agree with some of the things he considers scum-tells on KZ; I just think they're extremely minor and not nearly as relevant as KZ's Town-tells.)
@Shadow
Zion's 188 (and again reiterated in his 415) seemed to me at the time as an excuse to sit back and watch. That sort of passive approach struck me as not being helpful to solving the game. So, he was either not posting because he wanted to lay low and wait for the right opportunity to make a case, or he's scum and doesn't care much how the game goes. 188 made me consider scum hiding, the further posts seeming to come only after being called out seems more so. The content of his posts has been higher quality of late, offering more insight on his perspective. Im still leaning scum but still not really sure.
As an aside, I'm aware that I've been just as guilty with my lack of posting the last few days, I've been trying to get some work things wrapped up for the long weekend! I should have more time to catch up later tonight.
@everyone, we should decide on a lynch soon so we have time for claim and evaluation. Seems a lot of people will be busy this weekend (I will be in Paris for five days on Monday so Sunday I will be packing). I am fine staying on Kabazame; his meta might be different at another site but that doesn't mean he is town. I dont buy the "true but also trap" comment. If the 10 mos old goes to bed on time I should have time for a response to his defense.
@JeyK, why Kabazame instead of Grapefruit? I know you are limited but I am sure you can find the time to type out a reason for your vote.
lol there's the second vote on me with absolutely nothing backing it up. Add in grapefruit's blatant piggybacking on Toast and only two people have voted me and actually provided reasoning
I really hope town has the common sense to see how bad this is
Also Jey K is scum as well. She said she wouldn't unvote EL unless someone claimed scum, basically saying her scum read on EL was so strong she wouldn't back off... but now that EL is getting no pressure she jumps on the easy mislynch wagon without even explaining why. So yeah, that's a really bad vote
@Killjoy Your vote in #313 was not counted because there was a full stop inside your bold tags. Please revote.
The deadline is now just over 48 hours away. Also note: the Day will not end until I post and end it. This means you may continue posting and voting after the deadline nominally expires until I end the Day. I would not rely on that taking a long time.
Also Jey K is scum as well. She said she wouldn't unvote EL unless someone claimed scum, basically saying her scum read on EL was so strong she wouldn't back off... but now that EL is getting no pressure she jumps on the easy mislynch wagon without even explaining why. So yeah, that's a really bad vote
Scum is making this so easy!
Here you go @Zionite. This is why.
I'll elaborate;
Kabazame conveniently forgot whom I suspect as scum and thinks that just because I can't effectively push my main scumspect that I might as well not lynch any.
Kabazame conveniently forgot whom I suspect as scum and thinks that just because I can't effectively push my main scumspect that I might as well not lynch any.
JeY conveniently forgot that Grapefruit was her own Mafia suspect, and thus that she should've given some damn good reasoning when deciding where to place her vote between Grapefruit or Kabazame. Instead she's just doing whichever vote she thinks attracts less attention. And then she uses a post that comes AFTER her vote to justify her vote.
This slot is just not even trying anymore and absolutely needs to die toMorrow (since CFDing onto her toDay isn't feasible).
This is a game where I just like I'm on a completely different page to almost everyone else. My opinions on things have been so consistently opposite to EL that it doesn't even feel worth discussing. We just view the game very differently and since I have so many people scum reading me I'm having some serious doubts that my reads are very off base. Going to try and reread this evening.
Unvote
I might move my vote back, but I'm significantly less confident than I was 24 hours when I was still reading the exchange with Zionite over town hunting backwards.
Also Jey K is scum as well. She said she wouldn't unvote EL unless someone claimed scum, basically saying her scum read on EL was so strong she wouldn't back off... but now that EL is getting no pressure she jumps on the easy mislynch wagon without even explaining why. So yeah, that's a really bad vote
Scum is making this so easy!
Here you go @Zionite. This is why.
I'll elaborate;
Kabazame conveniently forgot whom I suspect as scum and thinks that just because I can't effectively push my main scumspect that I might as well not lynch any.
You're the one who said you weren't moving your vote off of EL, not me. Of course, I don't have a problem with you switching to a more realistic option, the problem is the back pedal and lack of explanation until you got called on it. and EL beat me to it but you also suspected GF and you still haven't said why you're going after me in stead of GF
and you seem to have conveniently forgotten that I was leaning scum on you anyway before you're awful vote, so it's only natural that my read got stronger after that
of course, I'm pretty sure the real reason is that GF is scum with you and you want to save him by going after the second leading lynch, but you can't really say that out loud
@Eco, I will be V/LA starting on Sunday the 6th and lasting until Sunday the 13th.
I'll be restricted to mobile where access and time allow, expect far less wall-posting, messed-up quotes, and less backreading to use minimal data.
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@Vaimes, what's your take on Zionite's tone? E.g. post #390.
---
My read on Rodemy has grown stale since I've been focusing on other players. I tried going back and re-reading his posts, but I really couldn't come up with anything conclusive, (it's D1 after all). I even found some things that felt like genuine reactions,for instance his reaction to Killjoy's early scumread of him, thus:
See this is why I'd just rather not post. I'm not great at day 1, guys. I'd rather just chill instead of forcing myself to post. I'm a huge distraction/red herring every time. My reads aren't even that great.
The Grapefruit distancing me thing is bunk because hey, I'm not scum. Your reads happen to be wrong. He probably isn't scum either. Why can't I just have a read on someone without being their buddy, or pocketing them? What makes the difference?
So now I'm at the crossroads where I can play how I want, or I can spend all this time defending myself and hearing what everyone thinks about me instead of other players. Great, exactly what I was trying to avoid.
Unvote V/LA until Sunday
I know it doesn't do you any favors if you are town, thank you for understanding.
I don't get most of this post because analyzing the game based off interactions is essentially what mafia is, and you're discluding yourself from this by throwing in the towel once you're starting to take the smallest amount of heat. Possibly a playstyle clash, but it really does not strike me as such because the post essentially says "You're wrong, I'm town, I hate D1, and... I'm not going to post?" three of which are, indeed, subjective opinions players can have, but "forcing" yourself to post... is just playing the game, correct?
I don't understand the effect of this post either. What do you want from making it? Do you want us to ignore you until D2? What then, ignore you until D3? I'm being fully serious when I say I don't understand the logic here.
I also don't understand why you're unvoting Kabazame here, and I am intrigued as to why you're choosing to no-longer push him.
I have no knowledge of your meta, but it appears like you're suffering from possible burnout.
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I concur with Vaimes, Zionites play has been very underwhelming, and in contrast with many other players in this game who I am currently reading town, he's playing almost inversely to them. I mentioned previously I am uncertain I got previous scumvibes from him when he gave the unsupported "Kabazame is scummier than Grapefruit" post, and he never really responded to me asking why iirc.
Vote: Zionite
I think it would only be detrimental to the general gamestate should he choose to "play the the way he wants to play," because honestly that just sounded like lurking with no vote on anyone.
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I haven't seen enough play from Rhand to make an accurate read on them.
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I need to look at Grapefruit independently of all this hubub before I make a conclusion on him.
"I concur with Vaimes, Zionites play has been very underwhelming, and in contrast with many other players in this game who I am currently reading town, he's playing almost inversely to them. I mentioned previously I am uncertain if his play this game is just clashing with my own, but there are other things indicative of scum here. I got previous scumvibes from him when he gave the unsupported "Kabazame is scummier than Grapefruit" post, and he never really responded to me asking why iirc.
Vote: Zionite
I think it would only be detrimental to the general gamestate should he choose to "play the the way he wants to play," because honestly that just sounded like lurking with no vote on anyone."
@Kabazame, I thought your reasoming for not voting was that you didnt like to throw it around. But saying scum are "taking the bait" implies you deliberately didn't vote to draw scum onto your wagon. (Which seems pointless, since not voting isnt a towny thing to do but whatever.) So which reason is it?
Why not both? As the old saying goes, two birds with one stone. In communities where I have played a lot of games, people know my style so the scum know they can't convince town to lynch me over it. But since this is my first game here scum could do it. Basically I'm just playing as I always do, but in this situation I was also paying attention to how people reacted to it. So it's not like I was doing it intentionally as a trap, it just kind of became one!
Just want to highlight this for the Kabazame wagon. I think this is true.
I don't get most of this post because analyzing the game based off interactions is essentially what mafia is, and you're discluding yourself from this by throwing in the towel once you're starting to take the smallest amount of heat. Possibly a playstyle clash, but it really does not strike me as such because the post essentially says "You're wrong, I'm town, I hate D1, and... I'm not going to post?" three of which are, indeed, subjective opinions players can have, but "forcing" yourself to post... is just playing the game, correct?
I don't understand the effect of this post either. What do you want from making it? Do you want us to ignore you until D2? What then, ignore you until D3? I'm being fully serious when I say I don't understand the logic here.
I also don't understand why you're unvoting Kabazame here, and I am intrigued as to why you're choosing to no-longer push him.
I have no knowledge of your meta, but it appears like you're suffering from possible burnout.
From my POV, Zionite was townreading Grapefruit, who has a wagon on him. I ask him about it, and he says his read on Grape is "I'm skeptical of the arguments against him." I ask what arguments, and then Zionite basically checks out of the game.
I have a lot of trouble following that chain of events from town, given that he's either 1) town and playing against his wincon, or 2) scum making ***** up.
- deliberately lurking just because you don't want to post during a certain (and very information-rich, further down the line) period of the game is completely antitown, because you're pretty much dooming your slot to be PoE lynched eventually no matter what
- Zionite calls himself a distraction when I was the only person grilling him. He calls himself a red herring, which sounds a lot like a preemptive handwave of any potential negative attention
- "Why can't I have a townread without pocketing them, or being their buddy?" > He never even really explained the read, so ??? This complaint is pretty unwarranted.
I'd like to lynch Zionite, but I also don't really want to run him up when he's gone until deadline and there probably won't be time to get a claim and potentially reevaluate.
Muh.
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Hey Grapefruit, please put your vote on someone you think will flip mafia. You don't really have time to waffle.
I don't have a strong scum read on anyone. Since I came into the thread on the defense and been focused on Kabazame. I still buy Toast's arguments on the whole but I've been swayed by Kabazame's recent posting. I like 421 even if I don't agree with the conclusion.
My biggest problem is right now is so many people (coughELcough) have been using my widely scum read slot to make their other scum reads. And these pre-flip associations make it hard for me to get a read on who is scum.
Vote: Jey K
Consider this another sheeping. I don't have much of a read on Jey but I think that train is my best chance of survival and more likely to flip scum at this stage than Kaba.
The point that Jey tried to paint me and Kaba as buddies is a strange reach and might have been laying the ground work to lynch whichever one of us survives toDay. It's not a strong read but my view of the game state is not pretty foggy right now.
I'd like to lynch Zionite, but I also don't really want to run him up when he's gone until deadline and there probably won't be time to get a claim and potentially reevaluate.
He's not actually gone, though; his not-really-V/LA post made it clear that he's just refusing to post until deadline for the same reason behind which he hid previously.
My biggest problem is right now is so many people (coughELcough) have been using my widely scum read slot to make their other scum reads. And these pre-flip associations make it hard for me to get a read on who is scum.
Me? What? None of my other scum reads require that you be scum. If you're talking about my views on Zio's recent behavior, interaction tells are often similar whether the target is a scum-buddy or a pocketed Townie; in either case, the point is that the person in question seems to know alignments in advance, and Zio's unexplained views on you appear to fit that bill. And none of my other scum-reads (JeY, Tennis, Rodemy) have anything to do with you being scum.
I am perfectly fine with a CFD onto JeY for a few reasons, the most relevant being that her hilarious vote on KZ has put her beyond Grapefruit on my scum-dar. I don't think it's actually going to happen before the deadline, though, and I don't wanna switch and end up causing a No Lynch. With 9 votes needed to lynch and only maybe 5 people currently in the mood for lynching JeY, I don't think that's a viable CFD.
Well we need to decide quickly. Kabazame, Grapefruit or JeyK. I am on K, but if JeY gets a wagon I will switch to avoid a no-lynch. I am not for a Grapefruit lynch toDay. Too many people are lurking, people need to chime in on preferences.
Pretty much the above. The weird thing to me about Jeys vote is that it feels intentionally bad, like she wanted to get herself voted. No idea what that means, but that's how I see it anyway.
Zionite we should just jeave for tomorrow. We won't get anything from him and in turn his wagon would be much less useful post flip if we lynched him today.
The point that Jey tried to paint me and Kaba as buddies is a strange reach and might have been laying the ground work to lynch whichever one of us survives toDay. It's not a strong read but my view of the game state is not pretty foggy right now.
Or I just think you're both scum. Less to do with you being a team and more individual reads.
About the people making comments that you two couldn't possibly be on the same team, I just co-modded a game where multiple people from the town team said variations of "player X and player Y can't possibly both be scum" and they were both scum, so at this early in the game I'm focusing on individuals as opposed to teams.
Pretty much the above. The weird thing to me about Jeys vote is that it feels intentionally bad, like she wanted to get herself voted. No idea what that means, but that's how I see it anyway.
Wasn't intentionally bad. I don't even register how it's bad. I don't understand this game. My main scumread isn't getting lynched, so I'm not allowed to vote another that actually has a wagon? What the hell are all of these dumb rules?
I didn't leave an explanation becuase I didn't have time to sift through posts and go 'these make me think this therefore scum' and then when I checked back, Kabazame made a hilarious reaction to my vote that did all my work for me because it has all the same properties as what I had a problem with before and I already explained that when LnGrrrR asked why.
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Anyone questioning "Kabazame over Grapefruit", Kabazame is simply a stronger read.
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Holy *****, if I get lynched, don't let EternalLurker, Kabazame, or Grapefruit go unchecked.
I can't make any promises but I'll try to do a more in-depth catch-up post way later today so I can post a T/S list reflective of the most recent game-state so if you guys actually want to lynch me, it's not in vain.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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That seems like a very self centered view of the game.
Meh, it's not my fault scum made it so easy. Regardless, I had a scum read on Zionite before he wagoned me, that just reinforced it. I thought Toast was town at first until he started reaching so hard to get me lynched. As for you, you could have wagoned on anyone and it would have been just as bad. Scum decided to go after me hard (probably because a lot of people voiced suspicion of my non-voting, I'm new here and my playstyle kind of clashes with the meta sometimes), nothing I can do about that.
My town reads have nothing to do with me either, and I even think LnGrrR is probably town. Jey K leaning scum not because of anything related to myself. You just picked out the three out of like 10 reads I posted that related to me. Of course, that's about what I expect from scum!
Seems a little blatant, though; Zionite defending Grapefruit for no actual reason, and refusal to elaborate.
Grapefruit did the same thing earlier, when he said "Zion is town but don't ask why" and refused to explain the read. It's like they couldn't even fake a reason to read each other as town so they just don't explain it. Now that Grapefruit feels like he has a high chance of dying, he doesn't want Zion linked to him.
@Kabazame Your point is fair that I ignored your town reads in making that statement. What was your original reasoning on Zion being scum before he hopped on your wagon? In my recollection there wasn't much to base the read off before that. As for Toast I strongly disagree with your case here. I feel like you must either be scum or blinded by the fact that he's pushing you to have a scum read on him. I have nothing but good vibes coming off Toast and I find his arguments on you in particular and his worldview as a whole very compelling and likely to be town. I get that you feel like he's misrepresenting you, but I just don't see it.
Still not buying Toast as scum; he looks much more like tunneled Town. But I'll cross that bridge if we get to it, since he's in no danger of being lynched toDay anyway and I don't have a huge amount of time to spare.
Since Grapefruit and Toastboy asked me why KZ's my top Town-read...I'm certainly not alone in Town-reading him, but he does seem to be about as polarizing as, well, me. So here are a few notes.
1) Initial refusal to vote and all that jazz. Obviously can just be a playstyle difference, but if we all explain why we prefer him voting (mostly, voting leaves records for us to analyze) and he still doesn't do it, that's anti-Town behavior. Thankfully, that didn't happen. His transition into his first vote looked very organic: after a third person told him very clearly why he should vote, he explained his reasons for holding back his vote all this time, then permanently planted his vote on a player who he's clearly established as his strongest scum-read, which is consistent behavior from someone who entered the thread by saying he doesn't like throwing weak votes around.
2) Buddying up to me. He's taken practically every opportunity he can to say that he's Town-reading me or to use me as a counter-example to people he's scum-reading. The thing is, this has mostly happened after I voted the other person who did that (and I'm still hard-scum-reading that person). If he's scum pocketing me despite seeing my reaction to Tennis doing the same, then he's the ballsiest scum in the world, especially doing that while there's already so much attention on him for having not voted earlier. And if he's scum not intentionally pocketing me, then blatantly Town-reading me when people have been so divided on me is throwing away a fairly viable mislynch possibility. This looks like he's legitimately Town-reading me and trying to work with me. Obviously, since I can't prove my alignment, this isn't useful information for other people, but it's a factor in why I'm Town-reading him.
3) Consistent playstyle. He just hasn't had significant logical inconsistencies in his arguments, and his posting style is consistent with someone who's used to relatively shorter Days. (That's why he agreed with breaking out of RVS quickly and getting to the meat of the game, since he's not used to having plenty of time to **** around at game start; that's why he's careful with his vote, cuz he's not used to Days that are long enough for him to swap his vote around plenty of times; and that's why his activity's picked up in the last few days as deadline approaches.)
4) Reasonable reads progressions. Expressed early issues with Latin, for example, but considered Latin's reactions to the pressure to be Townie, and slowly changed his view. This one's kinda NAI because Latin's so widely Town-read that rocking the boat here would be dangerous. But still, he's consistent about shifting his reads by only small amounts with each observation he makes, and -- contrary to Grapefruit's claims -- the reads are not self-centered at all. He was leaning scum on Zionite, still didn't lock onto Zionite in spite of his observation about this pretty scummy shade-post Zionite made against him, and finally called Zionite scum when Zionite made a post that wasn't directed towards KZ at all. He's had multiple reasons to scum-read Rodemy (like here) but still considers Rodemy mostly null. He's just so cautious about declaring people scum, yet is fairly okay with Town-reading people, that the only way he's scum is if he's being the good cop to someone else's bad cop; otherwise he's closing off too many mislynch opportunities for no real benefit. And the only bad cops I see as potentially aligned with KZ are Rodemy and Tennis, both of whom I'm scum-reading, so I have absolutely no interest in lynching KZ before either of those (probably Rodemy first, given that Tennis has significantly improved in the last few pages while Rod just soft-claimed scum).
and that's all the time I've got at the moment {:^#{{
I see this reasoning (without the obvious benefit of knowing my alignment) to suggest a null read, and am a bit lost on how the words you said translate to a town tell. Showing conviction with a vote is good. But refusing to vote that long regardless of reasoning doesn't seem like it should garner a town read.
This just baffles me. You explicitly scum read Pa Tennis for similar behavior but because Kaba town read you afterwards you town read him for it? Can you explain the difference between Tennis' read and Kaba's read? I am struggling to see how you can form a strong read based off the timing of similar behaviors. Especially when elsewhere people are being strongly critical of following other's reasoning even if the leader is being scum read as well.
You are reading intent into behavior pretty heavily there, but I largely agree with you.
Okay this last one has me convinced that you're in a tunnel here because the quotes you provided do the opposite of assure me he's town.
First you quote his response to this post, which you call a scummy shade post.
This might be a semantics thing but there is no shade in that post. It's an unsupported read. In my experience shading is used when someone is besmirching character while not making a read. Which clearly isn't the case here. Anyway you're awarding town points for not OMGUS'ing that post. He doesn't really engage with it either and is using to draw a comparison between my post and Zion's. He asks for follow up but doesn't have any particular question about the read. Then in your effort to show Kaba's reads aren't self centered you quote a post which is an at best NAI and at worst scummy post discrediting Zion for a valid strategy while not engaging with behavior. Which is a classic scum tool. So yeah, his progression there isn't explicitly self centered as I had accused, but it's also not particularly townie as you suggest.
Your secondary point of being slow to scum read but quick to town read is interesting. And in looking at it I just realized I'd been misreading Kaba's side of the town hunting debate this whole time. I thought he was anti town block based on that reply, but he clearly isn't. I need to reread. In my mind I had him taking these behaviors while having an anti-town hunting stance... Ughh... Need to reevaluate.
The Grapefruit distancing me thing is bunk because hey, I'm not scum. Your reads happen to be wrong. He probably isn't scum either. Why can't I just have a read on someone without being their buddy, or pocketing them? What makes the difference?
So now I'm at the crossroads where I can play how I want, or I can spend all this time defending myself and hearing what everyone thinks about me instead of other players. Great, exactly what I was trying to avoid.
Unvote
V/LA until Sunday
I know it doesn't do you any favors if you are town, thank you for understanding.
I'll have to double check. I'll probably also look at all of Zionite's posts and try to get a Real Read on him. Right now I wouldn't mind killing him, from what little content I've seen.
Anyway, the overall incident was null-ish, leaning Town. I shoulda specified that I wasn't really using that to Town-read him, simply showing why it wasn't a reason to scum-read him as many others were doing. Again, typed that post in a bit of a rush, sorry.
First of all, I wouldn't be critical of following other people's reasoning if it's good reasoning. That's silly. Dunno if/why others are doing that. Acknowledging that someone else made a good argument is not a scum-tell.
Anyway, timing is key in analyzing plenty of behavioral tells. Otherwise the concept of bandwagon votes wouldn't be a thing.
On top of timing, though, he's clearly buddying me but it's not the same sorta thing that I thought Tennis was doing by pocketing me. As I illustrated in that post, literally all of Tennis' first seven posts outside of his random vote seemed to be intended to pocket me. KZ, on the other hand, was strongly buddying me but not to the exclusion of doing other useful things with his posts.
A lot of reads are "semantics things". If I'd held Zionite's view of the exchange between you two, I'd've said "Grapefruit seems the Townier of the two". Talking about who seems "more scummy" instead? That looks like diction which comes from the mentality of wanting to keep all your lynch options open, and it's especially awkward wording when it comes from someone who criticized JeY's read of shadow vs me as somehow being Mafia-vs-Mafia theater. Which...is a pretty Townie thing to do, still trying to give Zionite the benefit of the doubt but hoping for more clarity than has been provided thus far? Not sure where you have a problem with that. Uh. No. Saying that "town hunting shouldn't be a goal" is quite in line with Zionite's previous posting which, as I said, seemed to be intended to keep all his lynch options open. "Valid strategy", really? Scum-hunting vs Town-hunting is kind of timing-dependent and generally NAI, but specifically shutting down other people's Town-hunting attempts was, in combination with his previous behavior, something for which I immediately scum-read Zionite too; I have no issue with KZ's read there.
On the bright side, this paragraph from you is Townie. Doesn't override everything else yet, but at least there's that.
Also after having this conversation with you the idea that you consider Kabazame lock town is still raising my eyebrows. One of your 4 points you admit is a null tell and your stance on Kaba/Pa Tennis is crazy even after the linked ISO. I don't get how you can have multiple people friending with you and be so comfortable declaring one lock town and the other scum.
Also you getting town vibes from me for agreeing with you in that last paragraph tells me you're very likely to be town, just maybe struggling to find a footing for reads that don't revolve around you. Because of all the things to town read me for, slightly backing down my stance on Kabazame should not be one of them.
Zion barely posted, but when he did he didn't really say much and usually showed up right after someone mentioned him (contrast that to Anak, who posted about as infrequently but actually made points and provided meaningful content). Then he started posting a lot of reads without explaining them which I didn't like. Also saying town-hunting isn't a good goal is scummy. I think EL mentioned it, but town hunting is actually very townie behavior, because you're basically eliminating potential mislynches you could force. Scum wants to keep their options open, and if the flip on a read and try to lynch them it's going to look awful, so it doesn't really benefit scum to do it other than trying to look town.
As for Toast, I explained this before. But seriously that majority of his points aren't related to alignment at all. I can make a detailed post about it. EL actually went through and explained why my actions make sense from a town perspective, but Toast doesn't actually explain why any of it makes sense from a scum perspective
This is not true (Lurker confirmed this). Also, I made it clear I didn't care to debate with him, but if someone I'm reading as town wants an explanation I'll provide it. If he's town and I'm scum and he's going in on me, wouldn't I be worried and try to convince him I'm town? (That's wifom I guess). But I'm pretty sure he's scum so there's no value in trying to convince him of something he already knows. EL doesn't know though so I'll explain it to him. Once again though he twists it to make me look bad.
"And yet you were insistent to the point of being genuine of withholding your vote up until this point. To be fair, I don't think this is much of a point against you, but it ties Anak to you should you flip as Mafia. "
At least he admitted this isn't "much of a point" against me, but he leaves the door open to lynch Anak if the need arises. Look at his reads leads and you'll see a lot of this! A lot of leans and "for now"s and nulls. Doesn't commit to anything except me being scum and Pa Tennis being Town. Once again, he ignores the fact that I said I would vote when I decided it was necessary, and Grapefruit made a very scummy post so I voted. It's not like I said I wouldn't vote until a certain time or something, I said I would vote when someone deserved it!
"I also commetned on the structure of your post as being similar to Anak's ie sarcastic assertion that Grapefruit is obv scum, vote, explanation.
The crux of both of your points is Grapefruit's vote following me, not providing analysis of his own. Sure, you go further saying he's “buddying up to me” but in essence it's the same point."
Has a problem with Anak and I having a similar structure. Doesn't have a problem with Grapefruit literally just taking his read. lol
"Let me explain further. Many of your reads thus far have been “scum does/doesn't do x. Y did x. Therefore scummy/not scummy” or variations with “town” insctead of scum. This is simplistic to the extreme. I'm not condemning you for poor analysis, that's not a tell, I'm saying the frequency at which you use these arguments reveals a superficiality with which you are viewing players that is indicative of a mafia alignment – you are pretending to analyse the game rather than actually analysing it."
My reads are simplistic and I'm not analyzing the game... yet he had Zion as a slight town read when he literally doesn't even explain his reads at all. He also doesn't have a problem with Grapefruit not explaining his reads, or just stealing reads... OK
"That does not explain the timing of you newly fervent activity (which is now even further renewed to an exaggerated level) that matches my attacks on you. Surely if you were used to 48 hour days you would have been posting like this from the off?"
This doesn't make sense. If you have homework do every two days and suddenly you get a project do in two weeks, you're not going to work hard on it the first couple days (if you do it at all, I'd probably wait until a few days before it was due...) He refuses to understand that I would start slow when I don't know anyone here, don't know the meta, and am used to much shorter days. Obviously it's going to take me a bit to get my footing, and I'm not going to have the same sense of urgency when I have 12 extra days. I don't think he's legitimately oblivious enough to not realize there's an adjustment period here, so I think he's just reaching for stuff
"Your tone noticeably shifted to a more extraverted and self-assured style with after you voted Grapefruit and people agreed with you. Success gives you confidence. I think it's a mark of letting your guard down."
I came out of the gates and went after SL for his word choice, refused to random vote, and didn't bend when people said I should vote someone. So I'm not sure how I was ever not confident. He doesn't explain how I'm more "self-assured" when I've actually just done things my own way this whole time, even when most of the game didn't agree with me
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tl;dr Toast is scum
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In related news, I just skimmed back through Zionite in horsemen, and he doesn't feel the same at all.
@Zionite: how much of your play this game was/is affected by your irritation with Lurker?
I know I missed questions, I am not going to look back through for them right now for lack of time/energy, can those who asked either re-ask or link me back to them?
How the hell do you not see it? I've explained it multple times now.
And I'm not sure I agree about Tubba. I have two problems: He's laying on the noob card WAY too hard, and is, at the same time, being overly cautious. Like, more than is believable.
...its really not though. From the perspective of /everyone but you/ your opinion on your predecessor is pointless because obviously you KNOW his alignment, and trying to convince us that /you believe/ that he was town is, at best, hollow and insincere. So no, not a silly argument.
...This is what you have right now? Given how much you've said on others, I'd have assumed this would have more.
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Zion's 188 (and again reiterated in his 415) seemed to me at the time as an excuse to sit back and watch. That sort of passive approach struck me as not being helpful to solving the game. So, he was either not posting because he wanted to lay low and wait for the right opportunity to make a case, or he's scum and doesn't care much how the game goes. 188 made me consider scum hiding, the further posts seeming to come only after being called out seems more so. The content of his posts has been higher quality of late, offering more insight on his perspective. Im still leaning scum but still not really sure.
As an aside, I'm aware that I've been just as guilty with my lack of posting the last few days, I've been trying to get some work things wrapped up for the long weekend! I should have more time to catch up later tonight.
@JeyK, why Kabazame instead of Grapefruit? I know you are limited but I am sure you can find the time to type out a reason for your vote.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
I really hope town has the common sense to see how bad this is
Scum is making this so easy!
Vote Count 1.4
Grapefruit21 - 5 (Anaklusmos, Kabazame, EternalLurker, Pa Tennis, Vaimes)
JeY k - 1 (Tubba Fett)
Kabazame - 4 (Toastboy, Grapefruit21, LnGrrrR, JeY k)
Killjoy - 1 (Rodemy)
Pa Tennis - 1 (Rhand)
Rodemy - 1 (Study Latin)
Tubba Fett - 1 (shadowlancerx)
Not Voting - 2 (Killjoy, Zionite)
With 16 alive it take 9 to lynch
@Killjoy Your vote in #313 was not counted because there was a full stop inside your bold tags. Please revote.
The deadline is now just over 48 hours away. Also note: the Day will not end until I post and end it. This means you may continue posting and voting after the deadline nominally expires until I end the Day. I would not rely on that taking a long time.
Here you go @Zionite. This is why.
I'll elaborate;
Kabazame conveniently forgot whom I suspect as scum and thinks that just because I can't effectively push my main scumspect that I might as well not lynch any.
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This slot is just not even trying anymore and absolutely needs to die toMorrow (since CFDing onto her toDay isn't feasible).
Unvote
I might move my vote back, but I'm significantly less confident than I was 24 hours when I was still reading the exchange with Zionite over town hunting backwards.
You're the one who said you weren't moving your vote off of EL, not me. Of course, I don't have a problem with you switching to a more realistic option, the problem is the back pedal and lack of explanation until you got called on it. and EL beat me to it but you also suspected GF and you still haven't said why you're going after me in stead of GF
and you seem to have conveniently forgotten that I was leaning scum on you anyway before you're awful vote, so it's only natural that my read got stronger after that
of course, I'm pretty sure the real reason is that GF is scum with you and you want to save him by going after the second leading lynch, but you can't really say that out loud
I'll be restricted to mobile where access and time allow, expect far less wall-posting, messed-up quotes, and less backreading to use minimal data.
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@Vaimes, what's your take on Zionite's tone? E.g. post #390.
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My read on Rodemy has grown stale since I've been focusing on other players. I tried going back and re-reading his posts, but I really couldn't come up with anything conclusive, (it's D1 after all). I even found some things that felt like genuine reactions,for instance his reaction to Killjoy's early scumread of him, thus:
Unvote
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This is... not a real read, correct?
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I don't get most of this post because analyzing the game based off interactions is essentially what mafia is, and you're discluding yourself from this by throwing in the towel once you're starting to take the smallest amount of heat. Possibly a playstyle clash, but it really does not strike me as such because the post essentially says "You're wrong, I'm town, I hate D1, and... I'm not going to post?" three of which are, indeed, subjective opinions players can have, but "forcing" yourself to post... is just playing the game, correct?
I don't understand the effect of this post either. What do you want from making it? Do you want us to ignore you until D2? What then, ignore you until D3? I'm being fully serious when I say I don't understand the logic here.
I also don't understand why you're unvoting Kabazame here, and I am intrigued as to why you're choosing to no-longer push him.
I have no knowledge of your meta, but it appears like you're suffering from possible burnout.
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I concur with Vaimes, Zionites play has been very underwhelming, and in contrast with many other players in this game who I am currently reading town, he's playing almost inversely to them. I mentioned previously I am uncertain I got previous scumvibes from him when he gave the unsupported "Kabazame is scummier than Grapefruit" post, and he never really responded to me asking why iirc.
Vote: Zionite
I think it would only be detrimental to the general gamestate should he choose to "play the the way he wants to play," because honestly that just sounded like lurking with no vote on anyone.
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I haven't seen enough play from Rhand to make an accurate read on them.
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I need to look at Grapefruit independently of all this hubub before I make a conclusion on him.
"I concur with Vaimes, Zionites play has been very underwhelming, and in contrast with many other players in this game who I am currently reading town, he's playing almost inversely to them. I mentioned previously I am uncertain if his play this game is just clashing with my own, but there are other things indicative of scum here. I got previous scumvibes from him when he gave the unsupported "Kabazame is scummier than Grapefruit" post, and he never really responded to me asking why iirc.
Vote: Zionite
I think it would only be detrimental to the general gamestate should he choose to "play the the way he wants to play," because honestly that just sounded like lurking with no vote on anyone."
Completely dropped a clause there.
Just want to highlight this for the Kabazame wagon. I think this is true.
Just a reminder that this is the entirety of the "push" on Jey that Grapefruit said was "genuine" "hard to fake tonally".
From my POV, Zionite was townreading Grapefruit, who has a wagon on him. I ask him about it, and he says his read on Grape is "I'm skeptical of the arguments against him." I ask what arguments, and then Zionite basically checks out of the game.
I have a lot of trouble following that chain of events from town, given that he's either 1) town and playing against his wincon, or 2) scum making ***** up.
- deliberately lurking just because you don't want to post during a certain (and very information-rich, further down the line) period of the game is completely antitown, because you're pretty much dooming your slot to be PoE lynched eventually no matter what
- Zionite calls himself a distraction when I was the only person grilling him. He calls himself a red herring, which sounds a lot like a preemptive handwave of any potential negative attention
- "Why can't I have a townread without pocketing them, or being their buddy?" > He never even really explained the read, so ??? This complaint is pretty unwarranted.
I'd like to lynch Zionite, but I also don't really want to run him up when he's gone until deadline and there probably won't be time to get a claim and potentially reevaluate.
Muh.
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Hey Grapefruit, please put your vote on someone you think will flip mafia. You don't really have time to waffle.
(I don't really care about Tubba right now; he isn't a viable lynch right now. Let's do Zionite first, and Tubba later, if applicable.)
My biggest problem is right now is so many people (coughELcough) have been using my widely scum read slot to make their other scum reads. And these pre-flip associations make it hard for me to get a read on who is scum.
Vote: Jey K
Consider this another sheeping. I don't have much of a read on Jey but I think that train is my best chance of survival and more likely to flip scum at this stage than Kaba.
I am perfectly fine with a CFD onto JeY for a few reasons, the most relevant being that her hilarious vote on KZ has put her beyond Grapefruit on my scum-dar. I don't think it's actually going to happen before the deadline, though, and I don't wanna switch and end up causing a No Lynch. With 9 votes needed to lynch and only maybe 5 people currently in the mood for lynching JeY, I don't think that's a viable CFD.
I'd love to be proven wrong, though.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Would vote Jey over a no lynch.
Zion isn't being pro town, but that doesn't make him not town.
Zionite we should just jeave for tomorrow. We won't get anything from him and in turn his wagon would be much less useful post flip if we lynched him today.
About the people making comments that you two couldn't possibly be on the same team, I just co-modded a game where multiple people from the town team said variations of "player X and player Y can't possibly both be scum" and they were both scum, so at this early in the game I'm focusing on individuals as opposed to teams.
Wasn't intentionally bad. I don't even register how it's bad. I don't understand this game. My main scumread isn't getting lynched, so I'm not allowed to vote another that actually has a wagon? What the hell are all of these dumb rules?
I didn't leave an explanation becuase I didn't have time to sift through posts and go 'these make me think this therefore scum' and then when I checked back, Kabazame made a hilarious reaction to my vote that did all my work for me because it has all the same properties as what I had a problem with before and I already explained that when LnGrrrR asked why.
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Anyone questioning "Kabazame over Grapefruit", Kabazame is simply a stronger read.
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Holy *****, if I get lynched, don't let EternalLurker, Kabazame, or Grapefruit go unchecked.
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