The one thing I do like about RVS is it gives me a chance to wiggle, loosen up, etc. along with getting a shot of everyone (attempting to) acting a little casual for an IRL day or two and the switches in tone give me better feels on the players. To aggressively stomp it out so soon is forcing me to play a little out of my comfort zone is a tad unpleasant. That's fine, I'll adjust, even if I'm unhappy about it.
Vote EternalLurker
Maybe I missed some of these answers because of sudden short term memory loss (I'm really tired), but do you think RVS is entirely useless/a waste of time? Have you had a bitter experience about it which caused you to hate it or were you immediately not he fan the first time you experienced it? Was there an RVS in your first-ever (forum) mafia game?
The one thing I do like about RVS is it gives me a chance to wiggle, loosen up, etc. along with getting a shot of everyone (attempting to) acting a little casual for an IRL day or two and the switches in tone give me better feels on the players. To aggressively stomp it out so soon is forcing me to play a little out of my comfort zone is a tad unpleasant. That's fine, I'll adjust, even if I'm unhappy about it.
Maybe I missed some of these answers because of sudden short term memory loss (I'm really tired), but do you think RVS is entirely useless/a waste of time? Have you had a bitter experience about it which caused you to hate it or were you immediately not he fan the first time you experienced it? Was there an RVS in your first-ever (forum) mafia game?
You just said it: "acting" a little casual. RVS gives people a chance to act a certain way without any game pressure to bring out their real behaviors. The fact that I'm "forcing [you] to play a little out of [your] comfort zone" is exactly what I want. People in their comfort zones are also more comfortable lying easily, and that's not at all helpful for my reads.
RVS certainly can have its uses in getting to know people, but don't you already know most of the players here?
I'm quite new to play-by-post Mafia (no completed games yet), but my old IRL group always rushed through the early-game banter pretty quickly (partly due to me pushing through it quickly). Though, to be fair, it's a little easier when you can also get body language reads IRL, so things can progress much more quickly.
Eternals attack on study Latin early game gives me the scumvibes.
unvote
No pressure yet though. Too early.
...No. Give me a ******* reason. I'd much prefer you attacking me for good reason, even if it involved an actual vote, than you throwing shade without an explanation while trying to fencesit about it. JeY's vote on me sparked useful interaction, so I quite like that post. Your post does nothing, especially when preceded by your post #32 that clearly shows an unwillingness to engage on the actual facts of the thread (since I'd already explained my thought processes twice before that).
The one thing I do like about RVS is it gives me a chance to wiggle, loosen up, etc. along with getting a shot of everyone (attempting to) acting a little casual for an IRL day or two and the switches in tone give me better feels on the players. To aggressively stomp it out so soon is forcing me to play a little out of my comfort zone is a tad unpleasant. That's fine, I'll adjust, even if I'm unhappy about it.
Maybe I missed some of these answers because of sudden short term memory loss (I'm really tired), but do you think RVS is entirely useless/a waste of time? Have you had a bitter experience about it which caused you to hate it or were you immediately not he fan the first time you experienced it? Was there an RVS in your first-ever (forum) mafia game?
You just said it: "acting" a little casual. RVS gives people a chance to act a certain way without any game pressure to bring out their real behaviors. The fact that I'm "forcing [you] to play a little out of [your] comfort zone" is exactly what I want. People in their comfort zones are also more comfortable lying easily, and that's not at all helpful for my reads.
RVS certainly can have its uses in getting to know people, but don't you already know most of the players here?
I'm quite new to play-by-post Mafia (no completed games yet), but my old IRL group always rushed through the early-game banter pretty quickly (partly due to me pushing through it quickly). Though, to be fair, it's a little easier when you can also get body language reads IRL, so things can progress much more quickly.
Eternals attack on study Latin early game gives me the scumvibes.
unvote
No pressure yet though. Too early.
...No. Give me a ******* reason. I'd much prefer you attacking me for good reason, even if it involved an actual vote, than you throwing shade without an explanation while trying to fencesit about it. JeY's vote on me sparked useful interaction, so I quite like that post. Your post does nothing, especially when preceded by your post #32 that clearly shows an unwillingness to engage on the actual facts of the thread (since I'd already explained my thought processes twice before that).
... Your. Attack. On. Study. Fear mongering his question (saying who is the best player is one thing... best scum player yadda yadda)... You know, what I've been saying?
You are really on edge right now.
First scum game not goin so well, bud?
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You just said it: "acting" a little casual. RVS gives people a chance to act a certain way without any game pressure to bring out their real behaviors. The fact that I'm "forcing [you] to play a little out of [your] comfort zone" is exactly what I want. People in their comfort zones are also more comfortable lying easily, and that's not at all helpful for my reads.
RVS certainly can have its uses in getting to know people, but don't you already know most of the players here?
I'm quite new to play-by-post Mafia (no completed games yet), but my old IRL group always rushed through the early-game banter pretty quickly (partly due to me pushing through it quickly). Though, to be fair, it's a little easier when you can also get body language reads IRL, so things can progress much more quickly.
...You are going to hate me this game, I can already tell You're not much of an observer, are you?
Otherwise, that's cool. I would unvote here, but the bolded makes me worried. Why would you make that assumption?
...You are going to hate me this game, I can already tell You're not much of an observer, are you?
I don't mind sitting and observing a little bit, as long as there's already plenty of interaction without me driving it. But, at the beginning of the game, there's no way I can tell whether or not there will be, so I prefer pushing things a bit at first.
So far, since Kabazame's the only person who's attempted any interaction that wasn't focused on me, I'll probably have to keep driving the interaction for at least a little while longer to bring the lurkers out of the woodwork. >_> Still waiting for posts from Zionite and Tubba, fr'ex.
Again, my experience is mostly from IRL games, and lurkers obviously aren't a thing in that. It's painfully obvious when someone is failing to contribute in a small room of people staring at each other. Some observation's certainly fine, but I want contributions from everyone.
Otherwise, that's cool. I would unvote here, but the bolded makes me worried. Why would you make that assumption?
You co-modded that Apocalypse game Iso ran which just ended recently. I figured a co-mod would know most of the Mafia community by now. Sorry if that assumption was inaccurate?
... Your. Attack. On. Study. Fear mongering his question (saying who is the best player is one thing... best scum player yadda yadda)... You know, what I've been saying?
You are really on edge right now.
First scum game not goin so well, bud?
Do I seem "on edge" in my interactions with JeY, who's actually voting me unlike you? No, because I have no problem with pressure on me; if I were concerned about that, I wouldn't make it a point to be the first one to push through RVS in every game. You, on the other hand, are not being a useful Townie. Fix that *****.
I already explained, well before your post #32, that my issue with his question had nothing to do with fear-mongering and that it wasn't even a real attack; his over-reaction just painted it as such, as Kabazame noted. I just don't like questions that will lead people to scum-read experienced players simply by virtue of their experience, for reasons that should be obvious.
So, if you're scum-reading me, give me real reasons for it, base them on actually reading my posts, and interact with me over them, as JeY is doing. Saying "I have scumvibes but I'm going to sit around and let other people drive the wagon for me" is the scummiest way possible to throw shade.
First game so bear with me. I'm not picking up the reads that people are claiming, would anyone care to elaborate on them? I'm perfectly prepared to chalk it up to newb, but any extra insight would be appreciated.
I'm Iso's roommate, which is why he asked me. The players in this game? three of them were in Iso's game and I "know" two other players on the list from games 3ish years ago.
I have a bad feeling about EternalLurker. Vote will not be moving for now.
@Shadow, why ask EL about the tone of their post specifically?
I was gauging Eternal's level of seriousness with his vote. Specifically, I didn't find the comment he voted you for to be alignment indicative, and wanted to see if he was joking or not. Turns out not.
@Latin: You just quoted three parts of my post and responded to each separately, even though each subsequent part specifically answers your previous response. C'mon. Do you just want me to repeat myself by answering you again? No thanks.
I'm not really making you do anything, that comes down to you and your own accord. I'm just trying to get out of rvs, which I think I've succeeded in.
Light townread on Latin. Decent townread on Lurker.
Potential light scumread on Rodemy.
Could you possibly explain all of these a little more in-depth?
Vote: Killjoy
---
@Shadow, how do you read that wee bit of self-meta defense EL gives in #47? You say you "feel like he's not being scummy," and does that imply a neutral read?
I'm Iso's roommate, which is why he asked me. The players in this game? three of them were in Iso's game and I "know" two other players on the list from games 3ish years ago.
I have a bad feeling about EternalLurker. Vote will not be moving for now.
---
Rodemy, go home, you're drunk.
...oh wait
Don't make me pull out that PR again haha.
Eternal is very aggressive right now. Leaning town for now.
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First game so bear with me. I'm not picking up the reads that people are claiming, would anyone care to elaborate on them? I'm perfectly prepared to chalk it up to newb, but any extra insight would be appreciated.
Point out any specific post, along with what you don't understand, and I can help shed light on it to the best of my ability.
Also, would you like any reading material on how to play as town? I've collected some here and there. A very decent selection can be found here as well.
Eternal is very aggressive right now. Leaning town for now.
Are you reading it as genuine town frustration coming from EL? Or is it a townie reaction to his wagon?
Was he not being aggressive before Jey voted him?
Well, the vote wasn't random now that you address it. He gave a reason for it which he states in #21.
I asked questions about that reasoning because the post it's based off of doesn't seem all that alignment indicative fmpov.
This is just the way I talk and think.
I haven't really done a lot so far, nor have a majority of the people in the game.
As for me "hiding" something, what from my posts feels like scum obfuscating their alignment? I'm curious as to what you see semantically that you find scummy.
Your talking style sounds so unnatural. Who uses words like extrapolate and obfuscate in normal conversation? You seem tense and like you are really thinking out your posts, which could mean you are hiding something and treading carefully. It might also just be the way you always talk, I guess, but it looks suspicious
@Shadow, how do you read that wee bit of self-meta defense EL gives in #47? You say you "feel like he's not being scummy," and does that imply a neutral read?
Wait, who is the he in this context? Currently I'm reading Eternal as pretty darn scummy (see below).
Getting a little cheeky, I'm amused. Never crossed my mind that you were trying to pocket me, but I'll dispense with scum reading you when I feel like you're not being scummy.
"never crossed your mind"
sure, that's clearly what "You're so sure of me being town that chainsawing to my defense feels right?" means
No, it means that as scum, if you saw a dumb attack on a townie, chainsawing would be a great way to earn some town cred.
Quote from EL »
I'm fine with being scum-read right at the start of Day One; it's a common side effect of my hatred of RVS, as my efforts to pull us out of that stage inevitably result in me being the noisiest person in the thread. But at least stick to your guns in your scum-read. I'm not fine with being targeted by an amorphous non-argument that can't actually be debated because it's just "you're scummy, and my reasons for stating that will change whenever you pin them down".
1. Where am I not sticking to my guns? I'm not feeling particularly waffly on you at all.
2. Why do you have the assumption that I have no reasons for scum reading you? When I say I'll stop scum reading you when you stop being scummy, that isn't the extent of my case.
3. Let's lay the cards on the table then shall we? We can even start with the rest of this post and why I find it scummy.
Pretty close to null, as with most people given how early into the game we are right now.
My only significantly non-null reads right now are slight scum-reads on Anak and Tennis. My Town-leans on Killjoy and Kabazame are light enough as to be pretty much null. Which, given we'd still be in RVS if I hadn't forced us out of it, should not be surprising.
Couple things here, you were having a back and forth with Study Latin, whom you self admittedly wanted to pressure. Then you backed off at the behest of KJ saying "TvT", despite having as either "pretty close to null" or "town lean light enough to be null" which are not quite the same, but that's splitting hairs. It's weird to me that you voted for pressure, but unvoted without Study Latin actually reacting, which was your whole point according to you.
Quote from EL »
Though it's nice of you to try to help with that by giving me enough interaction to get a read on you. Not quite sure this read'll end up the way you'd like, but we'll see.
This is using potential read to threaten me, "I'll scum read you if you don't behave," which is not how organic reads should work.
Otherwise we'd all just have to lynch you [Shadowlancerx] Day One, obviously. Are you asking us to do that?
This one is a very light scum ping, but it's got that RVS jokey feel, except you had already pulled out of RVS, so instead comes across and another subtle threat, "if you disagree with me, we could just lynch you."
It totally was; I won't deny that. I like to move out of RVS as quickly as possible, even if that necessitates pushing votes pretty early.
I still find that question scummy, but that wouldn't be enough for me to vote if not for RVS.
I just don't follow the logic of this post at all.
-You want to move out of RVS
-You voted for something you saw scummy
-But you wouldn't have voted if it hadn't still been RVS...?
You extrapolated the scummiest thing I could do from asking a question like that, and then voted me?
I extrapolated what seemed to be the most probable reason for asking a question like that. Tell me if there's another reason for it.
Note that my explanation didn't imply that the probable reasoning for the question was inherently scummy. Your being defensive about it is odd. I specifically stated that the reasoning might seem logical but was simply a bad idea, which implies more "poor play" rather than "scummy behavior".
This is...gross. You definitely assumed the scummiest motivation for Latin's question, but framed it so that he could just say "yup, I'm just a bad player, not scummy," and then when he gets defensive you say "huh, your defensiveness seems odd [read: scummy]"
Quote from EL »
Obviously, I wouldn't normally vote someone for a decision with which I disagree, but it's RVS, so why not?
For wanting to get out of RVS, you are sure hiding behind it a bunch.
Well, the vote wasn't random now that you address it. He gave a reason for it which he states in #21.
I asked questions about that reasoning because the post it's based off of doesn't seem all that alignment indicative fmpov.
This is just the way I talk and think.
I haven't really done a lot so far, nor have a majority of the people in the game.
As for me "hiding" something, what from my posts feels like scum obfuscating their alignment? I'm curious as to what you see semantically that you find scummy.
Your talking style sounds so unnatural. Who uses words like extrapolate and obfuscate in normal conversation? You seem tense and like you are really thinking out your posts, which could mean you are hiding something and treading carefully. It might also just be the way you always talk, I guess, but it looks suspicious
I've used both "extrapolate" and "obfuscate" both in Mafia and real life all the time.
Why does something really thinking out their posts more often come from scum to you?
Shadow continues to try to have it both ways. Sort of still being "random" but attacking people without having that in mind. It's a sort of manipulative use of the RVS stage that doesn't sit well with me. That said, he seems to be an aggressive sort and I'm vaguely open to the idea that it's just playstyle.
Eternal solidifying his town status. I like that all his thoughts are out there, and I don't see anything that doesn't track
Latin already looks like a keystone read. More on this, as it develops.
Shadow continues to try to have it both ways. Sort of still being "random" but attacking people without having that in mind. It's a sort of manipulative use of the RVS stage that doesn't sit well with me. That said, he seems to be an aggressive sort and I'm vaguely open to the idea that it's just playstyle.
Eternal solidifying his town status. I like that all his thoughts are out there, and I don't see anything that doesn't track
Latin already looks like a keystone read. More on this, as it develops.
Um...what?
How am I being random?
Who have I attacked except for Eternal?
I don't typically consider myself the aggressive player, might I ask where you're seeing aggression from me?
If you'd known you were going to be investigating grand conspiracy to commit murder and steal a kingdom, you might not have had that sixth Margarita. But you think the seventh and eight were probably alright.
Your talking style sounds so unnatural. Who uses words like extrapolate and obfuscate in normal conversation? You seem tense and like you are really thinking out your posts, which could mean you are hiding something and treading carefully. It might also just be the way you always talk, I guess, but it looks suspicious
By those standards, you might find me a very strange person. I think understanding me or my posts might become easier as the game progresses.
Do you find anyone else suspicious atm?
Shadow continues to try to have it both ways. Sort of still being "random" but attacking people without having that in mind. It's a sort of manipulative use of the RVS stage that doesn't sit well with me. That said, he seems to be an aggressive sort and I'm vaguely open to the idea that it's just playstyle.
Eternal solidifying his town status. I like that all his thoughts are out there, and I don't see anything that doesn't track
Latin already looks like a keystone read. More on this, as it develops.
It sounds like you're getting scumvibes from Shadow. Where do you see Shadow's push on EL as coming from scum?
No, it means that as scum, if you saw a dumb attack on a townie, chainsawing would be a great way to earn some town cred.
Whereas if you see a dumb attack as Town you just...ignore it? That's absolutely horrifying. Am I supposed to interpret your repeated chainsaw defense of Latin against my not-actually-an-attack to be a scum-tell from you? No, because that'd be stupid.
Couple things here, you were having a back and forth with Study Latin, whom you self admittedly wanted to pressure. Then you backed off at the behest of KJ saying "TvT", despite having as either "pretty close to null" or "town lean light enough to be null" which are not quite the same, but that's splitting hairs.
No, I switched targets because Pa Tennis was juicier; KJ suggesting that Study and I were both Town simply made the decision easier. And no, I do consider those to be the same, because null defaults to Town for me; randomness dictates that a null read is more likely to be Town than Mafia, so innocent-until-proven-guilty is my modus operandus.
This is using potential read to threaten me, "I'll scum read you if you don't behave," which is not how organic reads should work.
..."I'll scum-read you if you're acting scummy" is not a threat; it's a basic fact of how Mafia works. Throwing shade at me without any analysis, as you were trying to do, is scummy. Confronting me with details about your reads, as you're currently doing, is perfectly fine.
This one is a very light scum ping, but it's got that RVS jokey feel, except you had already pulled out of RVS, so instead comes across and another subtle threat, "if you disagree with me, we could just lynch you."
Man, you're reeeeally ******* stretching for these "reads". I was referencing your own statement about being the best scum player. I was illustrating the problem with the silly idea of focusing attention on the most experienced scum-player, which Latin's question would have done regardless of his intent in so doing.
I just don't follow the logic of this post at all.
-You want to move out of RVS
-You voted for something you saw scummy
-But you wouldn't have voted if it hadn't still been RVS...?
...It's a transition? I want to move out of RVS, because I hate totally unserious votes, so I start the transition by making semi-serious votes such as that one, with regard to something I see that is potentially scummy but not necessarily so (in this case, something that's equally explicable as just poor play). And it seemed to work just fine at transitioning us out of RVS, regardless of whether or not you're capable of following the logic of it, soooo....
This is...gross. You definitely assumed the scummiest motivation for Latin's question, but framed it so that he could just say "yup, I'm just a bad player, not scummy," and then when he gets defensive you say "huh, your defensiveness seems odd [read: scummy]"
So...you are assuming the scummiest motivation for my response, even when I clearly explained what my actual motivation was, and your argument for my scumminess is that I'm assuming scummy motivations of others (when I'm not)? ******* really now?
Why would an opening RVS vote make any difference when voting someone for something you actually thought was scummy?
Why are you bringing this up again when I already explained why this was questionable behavior, and when you responded to that explanation by saying that you'd wait for more Vaimes input before you went back to having fun misinterpreting all my statements?
Letting me "Do the honors" is basically saying you want me to start a wagon for you so you can be less responsible for your read.
No, it's saying that I already have a vote on someone else at the time that's more relevant for me right now, but if you consider Vaimes to be a good vote, I'd be willing to back you. If I hadn't had other, more pressing vote targets at the time, I would certainly have done the vote myself. Claiming that I don't want to be responsible for my reads when neither of my non-random votes thus far have been piggybacking on anyone else (Latin and Tennis) is, again,, just bull*****.
Thanks for, unlike Rodemy, engaging in an attempt at actual conversation and post analysis, but your analysis is sorely lacking, dude.
First game so bear with me. I'm not picking up the reads that people are claiming, would anyone care to elaborate on them? I'm perfectly prepared to chalk it up to newb, but any extra insight would be appreciated.
Point out any specific post, along with what you don't understand, and I can help shed light on it to the best of my ability.
Also, would you like any reading material on how to play as town? I've collected some here and there. A very decent selection can be found here as well.
I have a bad feeling about EternalLurker. Vote will not be moving for now.
Is it possible to express this feeling in more specific terms relating to what EL has said/done?
Thanks for the link, the posts in question are #38 and #42. I'd just like a little more clarity on the thought process that resulted in those reads, or is it just too early for anything but random vibes?
Well, the vote wasn't random now that you address it. He gave a reason for it which he states in #21.
I asked questions about that reasoning because the post it's based off of doesn't seem all that alignment indicative fmpov.
This is just the way I talk and think.
I haven't really done a lot so far, nor have a majority of the people in the game.
As for me "hiding" something, what from my posts feels like scum obfuscating their alignment? I'm curious as to what you see semantically that you find scummy.
Your talking style sounds so unnatural. Who uses words like extrapolate and obfuscate in normal conversation? You seem tense and like you are really thinking out your posts, which could mean you are hiding something and treading carefully. It might also just be the way you always talk, I guess, but it looks suspicious
As the type of person who uses words like that in a typical demeanor it doesn't really have that vibe.
@Study Latin I can't. I'm the worst type of mafia player; my reads are always on point but I have no way to explain them and I can't push lynches effectively. The only town game I've played well was when I was a vig and therefore could take matters into my own hands. Other games I was right most of the time but it amounted to nothing; including the game that caused me to quit for 3 years.
Thanks for the link, the posts in question are #38 and #42. I'd just like a little more clarity on the thought process that resulted in those reads, or is it just too early for anything but random vibes?
Early townreads to Eternal for casting a real vote and Kabazame for refusing to take part in the randomness.
I'd classify these as tentative townreads for those two players. It's early in the game, so it's likely Tennis made those reads out of gut-feelings he received from the posts those players made thus far. On page 1, it's a bit early for anything highly alignment indicative to arise, but some players like to come to conclusions on peoples' alignments regardless. It could be seen as a way to quickly get the town out of RVS. I would redirect you to Tennis if you want him to go into more detail on his thoughts here, as I'm not one to interpret everything correctly. However, I could give you an example, for instance, Kabazame was possibly read as town by Tennis for demonstrating cautious and inquisitive new-town behavior in his #13 and #23. Yet, I am not Tennis, so that's just a theory.
I'm as much at a loss on explanation for a good portion of Killjoy's 42 as you are. I am currently seeking a bit more detail on that post.
@Study Latin I can't. I'm the worst type of mafia player; my reads are always on point but I have no way to explain them and I can't push lynches effectively. The only town game I've played well was when I was a vig and therefore could take matters into my own hands. Other games I was right most of the time but it amounted to nothing; including the game that caused me to quit for 3 years.
Ok, that's fine, but...
I don't like shadowlancerx either.
...how do you read the interactions between Shadow and EL? It seems like you received scumvibes from both of them, but do they sound like unaligned pairs to you? Or don't they?
So, just to be clear....If your reads are always on point, yet you're simultaneously voting for me and unhappy with my primary tunneler accuser...are you suggesting that this is a hardcore Day One bussing attempt by shadow? Cuz that's a highly amusing interpretation of this situation if so.
Thanks for the link, the posts in question are #38 and #42. I'd just like a little more clarity on the thought process that resulted in those reads, or is it just too early for anything but random vibes?
Ugh, yes, thank you. The constant "this is how I feel, but I'm not gonna bother backing it up until I'm interrogated about it" that I'm seeing throughout this thread is driving me mad. That doesn't even happen in IRL games, wherein people are talking at each other much more rapidly; there's definitely no excuse for it whatsoever in a forum game, wherein you have plenty of time to type up at least a short explanation of your reads before hitting Post Reply.
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@shadowlancerx: On that topic, lemme just note a couple apparent playstyle differences between us which might be contributing to why your reads on me are terrible. >_>
You have, on two separate occasions, expressed discontent with my need to know what a person's reasons for a read are, rather than just being satisfied that the person has reasons and I should trust that they're not simply making ***** up. This is...completely nonsensical, because making ***** up is what scum does so obviously I'm gonna want to know why people have the reads that they do. But if your playstyle involves trusting people when they spit out reads without evidence, well, that's your (unhealthy) prerogative, but don't scum-read me for wanting to know more about why people think what they think. That's utterly ridiculous. Town has to communicate; stifling communication is anti-Town behavior. I'll sometimes accept an evidence-less statement if I don't see anything significantly wrong with it (as in Killjoy's statements about Latin and Rodemy), but if there's any disagreement it's basic ******* sense to wanna know why the disagreement exists.
You seem to think that I either have to be totally in RVS mode or completely serious, that off-topic comments or jokes can't ever come from a player like me once RVS is over. I'll just point you to the entirety of post #51 as a counter-example. Being serious and analytical with regard to the basic facts of the game doesn't mean I can't be jokey about matters that are orthogonal to gameplay. Actually, my observation at the beginning of this post about JK's alleged SvS analysis of our conflict, when clearly he doesn't actually believe that, is another example: I'm pointing out that his statements are inconsistent, and I'm doing so in a "somewhat jokey manner", even though RVS ended ages ago. If that's a scum-tell to you, something is seriously wrong with your reads.
I don't understand from where your preconceptions of other players' behavior come, but hopefully you can get past them? Cuz they're...weird at best, and unhealthy at worst.
Light townread on Latin. Decent townread on Lurker.
Potential light scumread on Rodemy.
Could you possibly explain all of these a little more in-depth?
Vote: Killjoy
Also not just yet. Waiting on a little more of the game to unfold before I go into detail.
I will say that I really, really think that Lurker is town. He's just so... open. In a heart on his sleeve kinda way.And in a way I like.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Well, the vote wasn't random now that you address it. He gave a reason for it which he states in #21.
I asked questions about that reasoning because the post it's based off of doesn't seem all that alignment indicative fmpov.
This is just the way I talk and think.
I haven't really done a lot so far, nor have a majority of the people in the game.
As for me "hiding" something, what from my posts feels like scum obfuscating their alignment? I'm curious as to what you see semantically that you find scummy.
Your talking style sounds so unnatural. Who uses words like extrapolate and obfuscate in normal conversation? You seem tense and like you are really thinking out your posts, which could mean you are hiding something and treading carefully. It might also just be the way you always talk, I guess, but it looks suspicious
I've used both "extrapolate" and "obfuscate" both in Mafia and real life all the time.
Why does something really thinking out their posts more often come from scum to you?
Of course, scum has to be more cautious when talking because they are trying to appear town. Town players are usually more relaxed and talk more freely.
Usually if someone seems paranoid or nervous, it's not because they're afraid someone will realize they are town lol
This isn't always true but it often is
Your talking style sounds so unnatural. Who uses words like extrapolate and obfuscate in normal conversation? You seem tense and like you are really thinking out your posts, which could mean you are hiding something and treading carefully. It might also just be the way you always talk, I guess, but it looks suspicious
By those standards, you might find me a very strange person. I think understanding me or my posts might become easier as the game progresses.
Do you find anyone else suspicious atm?
Not really, but I'm thinking Lurker is town. He's drawing a lot of attention to himself (ironically) when he could be lurking pretty easily. Also I think RVS is beneficial to scum and so him trying to bust out of it as soon as possible is a good sign
Not really, but I'm thinking Lurker is town. He's drawing a lot of attention to himself (ironically) when he could be lurking pretty easily. Also I think RVS is beneficial to scum and so him trying to bust out of it as soon as possible is a good sign
Ahh, I see. If you feel that EL is town for these reasons, do you not like the reasons shadow is pushing him for? Does one of their arguments feel scummy to you, or do you think it's possible that both of them are coming from town?
Latin, can I get an actual opinion from you? One? Somewhere? Doing nothing but asking other people their opinions is a great way to pretend to contribute content, but...I'm not gonna let that slide. That's classic "figure out where everyone wants me to put pressure before actually doing it" scum behavior.
Give us your top Town-read and your top Mafia-read, for starters.
Latin, can I get an actual opinion from you? One? Somewhere? Doing nothing but asking other people their opinions is a great way to pretend to contribute content, but...I'm not gonna let that slide. That's classic "figure out where everyone wants me to put pressure before actually doing it" scum behavior.
Give us your top Town-read and your top Mafia-read, for starters.
I feel like the current dynamic between EL and Shadow is most likely TvT.
I can't see the scum-motivation for EL drawing out an argument like this for so long, and in such fervent defense so early in the game. In #83 he gives a very thought out explanation of playstyle clashes he thinks are aiding in the conflict between him and Shadow. I can follow these clearly, especially his earlier mention of "innocent until proven guilty" approach to the game in #77, as well as the one where he says the intent of some of his posts are lost in translation due to them being written in a "joking" manner.
However, unlike Rodemy, I am unsure if these feelings of frustration can simply be read as town without a deeper explanation. El's reactions to people finding him scummy/towny in what he perceived as "reasonless" fashions seems like he's genuinely frustrated with the lack of explanation they're giving, and would much rather draw that information into the thread. Forcefully. All of which I could see coming from a town mindset.
On another note, none of the angles that Shadow was pushing EL for felt contrived. I am somewhat incredulous as to how they made what looks like a case for a player being scum on page 2, but many of the individual reasons in post #67 made sense to me coming from the approach of a player who uses the scumtell method, (Shadow), quite a bit.
In essence, I think it's quite possible that the playstyle clashes are real between Shadow and El, and Shadow perceiving El's actions as scummy is coming from a town mindset. Along with that, EL's play thus far could be seen as scummy, but the way he's engaging players and his frustration with players' reads seems to me most likely to be coming from a town mindset at this stage in the game.
Also, both players are looking to engage other players outside of their eye-to-eye tunnel, a very good sign.
This is what I have so far.
I'll wait a little on top scumreads because I don't think everyone has posted in the thread yet iirc.
No, it means that as scum, if you saw a dumb attack on a townie, chainsawing would be a great way to earn some town cred.
Whereas if you see a dumb attack as Town you just...ignore it? That's absolutely horrifying. Am I supposed to interpret your repeated chainsaw defense of Latin against my not-actually-an-attack to be a scum-tell from you? No, because that'd be stupid.
Couple things here, you were having a back and forth with Study Latin, whom you self admittedly wanted to pressure. Then you backed off at the behest of KJ saying "TvT", despite having as either "pretty close to null" or "town lean light enough to be null" which are not quite the same, but that's splitting hairs.
No, I switched targets because Pa Tennis was juicier; KJ suggesting that Study and I were both Town simply made the decision easier. And no, I do consider those to be the same, because null defaults to Town for me; randomness dictates that a null read is more likely to be Town than Mafia, so innocent-until-proven-guilty is my modus operandus.
This is using potential read to threaten me, "I'll scum read you if you don't behave," which is not how organic reads should work.
..."I'll scum-read you if you're acting scummy" is not a threat; it's a basic fact of how Mafia works. Throwing shade at me without any analysis, as you were trying to do, is scummy. Confronting me with details about your reads, as you're currently doing, is perfectly fine.
This one is a very light scum ping, but it's got that RVS jokey feel, except you had already pulled out of RVS, so instead comes across and another subtle threat, "if you disagree with me, we could just lynch you."
Man, you're reeeeally ******* stretching for these "reads". I was referencing your own statement about being the best scum player. I was illustrating the problem with the silly idea of focusing attention on the most experienced scum-player, which Latin's question would have done regardless of his intent in so doing.
I just don't follow the logic of this post at all.
-You want to move out of RVS
-You voted for something you saw scummy
-But you wouldn't have voted if it hadn't still been RVS...?
...It's a transition? I want to move out of RVS, because I hate totally unserious votes, so I start the transition by making semi-serious votes such as that one, with regard to something I see that is potentially scummy but not necessarily so (in this case, something that's equally explicable as just poor play). And it seemed to work just fine at transitioning us out of RVS, regardless of whether or not you're capable of following the logic of it, soooo....
This is...gross. You definitely assumed the scummiest motivation for Latin's question, but framed it so that he could just say "yup, I'm just a bad player, not scummy," and then when he gets defensive you say "huh, your defensiveness seems odd [read: scummy]"
So...you are assuming the scummiest motivation for my response, even when I clearly explained what my actual motivation was, and your argument for my scumminess is that I'm assuming scummy motivations of others (when I'm not)? ******* really now?
Why would an opening RVS vote make any difference when voting someone for something you actually thought was scummy?
Why are you bringing this up again when I already explained why this was questionable behavior, and when you responded to that explanation by saying that you'd wait for more Vaimes input before you went back to having fun misinterpreting all my statements?
Letting me "Do the honors" is basically saying you want me to start a wagon for you so you can be less responsible for your read.
No, it's saying that I already have a vote on someone else at the time that's more relevant for me right now, but if you consider Vaimes to be a good vote, I'd be willing to back you. If I hadn't had other, more pressing vote targets at the time, I would certainly have done the vote myself. Claiming that I don't want to be responsible for my reads when neither of my non-random votes thus far have been piggybacking on anyone else (Latin and Tennis) is, again,, just bull*****.
Thanks for, unlike Rodemy, engaging in an attempt at actual conversation and post analysis, but your analysis is sorely lacking, dude.
I mean, why would i even want to engage you after that little comment? and also i did engage you, you just decided to.. not want to understand.
Also, you are now moving back to scumlean. You use me as a comparison to shadow stating i didn't engage you when
A: I did.
B: I gave up when you wouldn't actually listen to me.
I said i had you as scumlean for pushing paranoia on Study Latins question. YOu called it leading and then made up a story about why he asked the question. Here it is right here
Uh, whatever tone means I don't like the question? Asking who the best player is would be...something. Asking who the best scum player is sounds like Latin (ouch, can't use SL for either of you two) wants to focus on that player for fear that a good scum player could fly under the radar. Which, while it might seem logical on the surface, is a really bad idea because random alignment rolls don't care who's a good or bad scum player.
You took his question and made it scummy. Which.. is pretty scummy.
Saying you didn't like it is fine. But then you voted him for it and your reasoning is.. actually pretty dumb. He asked who the best scum player is. Lets say the answer was Rodemy. (because lets face it. it's totally me) And he used that to push a lynch on me and stir fear.... THAT would be scummy. But you voted him for a thing he didn't do. And said it "sounded" like he was gonna do it. THAT is fearmongoring.
Please, don't dismiss me. And don't insult me with your silly insults. It's a lighthearted game. Keep it that way.
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Lemme read his reactions after hey and I'll get back to you at work, doin an on the spot read. Not alot of time
That is cool with me. Whenever you get the time.
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Well he certainly is being agressive towards me.. I just pointed out that one bit about how his attacks felt scummy due to fear mongoring.... and he seems to have it in his head that i would have a novel of information and discussion on the topic.. when i stated all i felt about it. Your question was not scummy nor bad play... it was odd.
i am gonna have to ask why you feel the need to gain site-meta and such from hearsay on this site. Everyone here has a different opinion.
In the two scumgames i have completed, i have been last scum lynched. Does that make me a good scum player? I don't know. But what exactly does that tell you? and what will you use the information you gained from this question for? It is a rather odd question.
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I mean, why would i even want to engage you after that little comment? and also i did engage you, you just decided to.. not want to understand.
Please, don't dismiss me. And don't insult me with your silly insults. It's a lighthearted game. Keep it that way.
They're not "silly insults" and I'd certainly prefer not to dismiss you. But in post #32 you asked me to do something I'd already done twice, implying a lack of effort in reading the thread, and in post #53 you threw shade at me without actually engaging me in conversation in the process. Neither of these made me happy.
I am totally open to actual discussion, however, so let's go.
I said i had you as scumlean for pushing paranoia on Study Latins question. YOu called it leading and then made up a story about why he asked the question. Here it is right here
Asking who the best player is would be...something. Asking who the best scum player is sounds like Latin...wants to focus on that player for fear that a good scum player could fly under the radar. Which, while it might seem logical on the surface, is a really bad idea because random alignment rolls don't care who's a good or bad scum player.
You took his question and made it scummy. Which.. is pretty scummy.
But...I didn't reinterpret his words as scum-tells. You're the one doing that for my words right now.
I specifically stated that the purpose of Latin's question seemed to be to target the best scum player for fear that a good scum player might otherwise fly under the radar. That is a potentially TOWNIE thing to do in terms of motivation, NOT necessarily a scummy thing. It's just a poor decision (because being experienced is not a scum-tell), which is why I called it a "bad idea" rather than a "scum-tell". I didn't like the question, but it wasn't making me scum-read Latin.
You are struggling to read scummy motivation into this by ignoring the words that you're literally quoting right here. I even stated shortly thereafter that I didn't consider it particularly scummy -- slightly scummy, maybe, but definitely not enough to be worth a vote under normal circumstances. However, during RVS, I'm looking for any little excuse to latch onto something that can break us out of RVS, so that seemed a useful enough conversational focus. As soon as it had served its purpose and I found a better target, I switched to Tennis, where my vote has stayed ever since (since he's still being frustratingly light on the explanations for his reads, although the last post was an improvement).
At no point did I invoke fearmongering tactics against Latin, and I even acknowledged the likelihood of him being Town shortly thereafter when Killjoy brought it up. I'm also very happy with his post #90; I haven't yet decided whether or not shadow is Town, but I appreciate Latin's thought process in defending him.
In fact, my post #89 was somewhat of a hint that I'm growing to trust Latin; I'll leave the details of figuring out why as an exercise for the reader, for now. That'll give me an idea of whether or not people are still misreading my intentions.
Uh, whatever tone means I don't like the question? Asking who the best player is would be...something. Asking who the best scum player is sounds like Latin (ouch, can't use SL for either of you two) wants to focus on that player for fear that a good scum player could fly under the radar. Which, while it might seem logical on the surface, is a really bad idea because random alignment rolls don't care who's a good or bad scum player.
Otherwise we'd all just have to lynch you Day One, obviously. Are you asking us to do that?
It's rvs, but explain this to me. You're basing the reasoning for your vote on scum-motivation that lies in events that haven't occurred? You extrapolated the scummiest thing I could do from asking a question like that, and then voted me?
Why are you so worried about a random vote? Also, why do you talk so formally and robotic, like your nervous and carefully choosing your words?
Do you have a secret? Are you worried someone might find out what you did??
I don't see how he is worried. Where are you getting "worried"? Why are you implying he is worried scum? WHERE IS THE JOKER???!!!!!
I extrapolated what seemed to be the most probable reason for asking a question like that. Tell me if there's another reason for it.
I didn't really think the question could be seen as alignment indicative in hindsight, which is why I questioned you gaining scumvibes from it.
Don't really think it breaks down into scummy reason nor townie reason.
Note that my explanation didn't imply that the probable reasoning for the question was inherently scummy. Your being defensive about it is odd. I specifically stated that the reasoning might seem logical but was simply a bad idea, which implies more "poor play" rather than "scummy behavior".
So you voted me for poor play as opposed to something scummy?
What exactly do you read "odd" about my questions in regards to your vote?
Obviously, I wouldn't normally vote someone for a decision with which I disagree, but it's RVS, so why not?
I thought rvs ended the moment you find something alignment indicative, thus voting would no longer be random.
@Latin: You just quoted three parts of my post and responded to each separately, even though each subsequent part specifically answers your previous response. C'mon. Do you just want me to repeat myself by answering you again? No thanks.
Oh? Explain. give me a PBP (read 2 posts.) I don't buy scumreads based off 2 rvs posts. The only thing you can get a scumlean from my first post is the fact i am voting seppel (my only meta) which would mean you'd mention Jey's vote on iso.. buuut hey you don't mention him at all. So it would have to be my one post about Eternal fearmongoring. What about that pings your scumdar?
I mean, why would i even want to engage you after that little comment? and also i did engage you, you just decided to.. not want to understand.
Please, don't dismiss me. And don't insult me with your silly insults. It's a lighthearted game. Keep it that way.
They're not "silly insults" and I'd certainly prefer not to dismiss you. But in post #32 you asked me to do something I'd already done twice, implying a lack of effort in reading the thread, and in post #53 you threw shade at me without actually engaging me in conversation in the process. Neither of these made me happy.
I am totally open to actual discussion, however, so let's go.
I said i had you as scumlean for pushing paranoia on Study Latins question. YOu called it leading and then made up a story about why he asked the question. Here it is right here
Asking who the best player is would be...something. Asking who the best scum player is sounds like Latin...wants to focus on that player for fear that a good scum player could fly under the radar. Which, while it might seem logical on the surface, is a really bad idea because random alignment rolls don't care who's a good or bad scum player.
You took his question and made it scummy. Which.. is pretty scummy.
But...I didn't reinterpret his words as scum-tells. You're the one doing that for my words right now.
I specifically stated that the purpose of Latin's question seemed to be to target the best scum player for fear that a good scum player might otherwise fly under the radar. That is a potentially TOWNIE thing to do in terms of motivation, NOT necessarily a scummy thing. It's just a poor decision (because being experienced is not a scum-tell), which is why I called it a "bad idea" rather than a "scum-tell". I didn't like the question, but it wasn't making me scum-read Latin.
You are struggling to read scummy motivation into this by ignoring the words that you're literally quoting right here. I even stated shortly thereafter that I didn't consider it particularly scummy -- slightly scummy, maybe, but definitely not enough to be worth a vote under normal circumstances. However, during RVS, I'm looking for any little excuse to latch onto something that can break us out of RVS, so that seemed a useful enough conversational focus....
I switched to Tennis, where my vote has stayed ever since (since he's still being frustratingly light on the explanations for his reads, although the last post was an improvement).
At no point did I invoke fearmongering tactics against Latin
Except vote him and said he was asking a leading question when he wasn't
and I even acknowledged the likelihood of him being Town shortly thereafter when Killjoy brought it up. I'm also very happy with his post #90; I haven't yet decided whether or not shadow is Town, but I appreciate Latin's thought process in defending him.
In fact, my post #89 was somewhat of a hint that I'm growing to trust Latin; I'll leave the details of figuring out why as an exercise for the reader, for now. That'll give me an idea of whether or not people are still misreading my intentions.
I am reading you as scumreading him for it because you VOTED HIM. Jesus. Your switch to him being town doesn't do ***** when the original fact was you said he was asking a leading question and then voted him. a vote means you FOUND IT SCUMMY.
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Having just come from a game where I witnessed hardcore Day 1 bussing resulting in a scum getting vig'd and another getting lynched that same day, it's entirely possible.
Also last few times I betrayed my intuition this game it cost me. EternalLurker is the more likely of scum in my suspicions of him and shadowlancerx. Everyone is getting town reads but I don't buy it; not right now.
Nobody else has stood out as anything.
Also @Rodemy the comment I made earlier is hysterical to only me right now but I wanted to leave that there so it could be appreciated later.
Why didn't you just.. ask him? I feel like his response would have warranted a better read than you straight up assuming..
Is "asking for clarification by way of vote pressure" something you find scummy? Because Latin did exactly that against Killjoy shortly thereafter, yet you're conveniently ignoring that. Cuz, you know, it's not a scum-tell; you're just repeatedly stretching to try to find ways to reinterpret my actions to fit your narrative, even when other people do the same thing.
Sidenote, you are offically voting vaimes at this point. You never unvoted.. but that is not why this pings me.
Why are you so concerned about the fact you already voted vaimes? what are you worried about?
...Your entire non-argument hinges on the fact that I was voting Latin, which you find so important for reasons that clearly show you're refusing to read what I'm saying...yet you now claim I was voting Vaimes at that point instead of Latin. Nice. This is what I mean when I say you're really not putting effort into reading the thread, and why I'm having difficulty taking your reads seriously.
Anyway, I was not "concerned" about re-voting Vaimes. I was voting a target I preferred; that oddity from Vaimes seemed much less useful as a conversational focus to me for the purpose of breaking everyone out of RVS. I was simply acknowledging that I found it strange in a potentially scummy way, as shadow seemed to be implying he felt as well, and that I would thus be willing to back him in pressuring Vaimes about that issue if necessary. The whole "already voted Vaimes" thing was a joking excuse for keeping my vote where I felt it was more useful at the time; sorry for the confusion that may have caused. Apparently I shouldn't make jokes in games involving you or shadow.
Annnd here we go. I specifically explained that it was a way to help break us out of RVS, in my very next two posts. And it worked, even though the process by which it did so involved shadow turning on me. I'm fine with that. But now you go and repeatedly ask this same question and build your entire argument around it, so I'm quickly giving up any hopes that you'll actually start reading my posts before responding to them.
However, during RVS, I'm looking for any little excuse to latch onto something that can break us out of RVS, so that seemed a useful enough conversational focus....
It wasn't
Clearly the facts don't agree with your opinions. Again.
I am reading you as scumreading him for it because you VOTED HIM. Jesus. Your switch to him being town doesn't do ***** when the original fact was you said he was asking a leading question and then voted him. a vote means you FOUND IT SCUMMY.
annnnnd explained already
So. Yeah. I'm really getting tired of explaining that my vote for Latin was not a "you're definitely scum" vote but a "this is slightly fishy, so let's get people talking about something to break out of RVS" vote. The fact that Latin himself seems to have understood this while you and shadow haven't, no matter how many times I keep repeating this fairly simple concept, is really mind-boggling to me.
Having just come from a game where I witnessed hardcore Day 1 bussing resulting in a scum getting vig'd and another getting lynched that same day, it's entirely possible.
shadowlancer was in said game, so I'd imagine he'd've learned that lesson.
Well he certainly is being agressive towards me.. I just pointed out that one bit about how his attacks felt scummy due to fear mongoring.... and he seems to have it in his head that i would have a novel of information and discussion on the topic.. when i stated all i felt about it. Your question was not scummy nor bad play... it was odd.
i am gonna have to ask why you feel the need to gain site-meta and such from hearsay on this site. Everyone here has a different opinion.
In the two scumgames i have completed, i have been last scum lynched. Does that make me a good scum player? I don't know. But what exactly does that tell you? and what will you use the information you gained from this question for? It is a rather odd question.
I think the original intent of the question was to gauge how good scumplay can get on this site. I read revolution mafia, and I'm reading the hearthstone invitational game, both of which seem to have really strong performances by town, and I was wondering what a strong performance by scum would look like, or even how strong a performance could be seen in this game. What's the quickest way to know where skill levels fall for scum? Just ask everyone who the strongest scum player is I suppose. That was something along the lines of my logic. It was probably a badly phrased question for what I was looking for, but it certainly had a part in leading us to the current gamestate, no?
Having just come from a game where I witnessed hardcore Day 1 bussing resulting in a scum getting vig'd and another getting lynched that same day, it's entirely possible.
I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm now curious as to why you think the dialogue between Shadow and EL is scum-theatre.
Are you referring to revolution mafia by any chance? Or another game?
Also last few times I betrayed my intuition this game it cost me. EternalLurker is the more likely of scum in my suspicions of him and shadowlancerx. Everyone is getting town reads but I don't buy it; not right now.
Are you saying you don't think anyone else's townreads on those slots have merit to them?
Gut has the tendency to be wrong in my experience, it's not an always accurate tool, but it is helpful in gaining more concrete reads.
@Eternal. I am done talking about it. Clearly you are right and everything i am saying is dumb if interpreted in a certain way. Done. Done Done.
(by the way, you have to unvote in order to change your vote. Soooo your switch from vaimes to latin wasn't actually legit.. but it seems that it doesn't matter to Eco in this game.. or he hasn't said anything yet.)
You mentioned a "Better target" being Tennis. Yet you wanted to vote vaimes before that but couldn't due to the fact "You lead with a vote on him" So vaimes was.. what?
@Latin Okay. Fair enough.
and Idk why iso, just your speech and logic.
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Vote EternalLurker
Maybe I missed some of these answers because of sudden short term memory loss (I'm really tired), but do you think RVS is entirely useless/a waste of time? Have you had a bitter experience about it which caused you to hate it or were you immediately not he fan the first time you experienced it? Was there an RVS in your first-ever (forum) mafia game?
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Eternals attack on study Latin early game gives me the scumvibes.
unvote
No pressure yet though. Too early.
RVS certainly can have its uses in getting to know people, but don't you already know most of the players here?
I'm quite new to play-by-post Mafia (no completed games yet), but my old IRL group always rushed through the early-game banter pretty quickly (partly due to me pushing through it quickly). Though, to be fair, it's a little easier when you can also get body language reads IRL, so things can progress much more quickly.
...No. Give me a ******* reason. I'd much prefer you attacking me for good reason, even if it involved an actual vote, than you throwing shade without an explanation while trying to fencesit about it. JeY's vote on me sparked useful interaction, so I quite like that post. Your post does nothing, especially when preceded by your post #32 that clearly shows an unwillingness to engage on the actual facts of the thread (since I'd already explained my thought processes twice before that).
... Your. Attack. On. Study. Fear mongering his question (saying who is the best player is one thing... best scum player yadda yadda)... You know, what I've been saying?
You are really on edge right now.
First scum game not goin so well, bud?
...You are going to hate me this game, I can already tell You're not much of an observer, are you?
Otherwise, that's cool. I would unvote here, but the bolded makes me worried. Why would you make that assumption?
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So far, since Kabazame's the only person who's attempted any interaction that wasn't focused on me, I'll probably have to keep driving the interaction for at least a little while longer to bring the lurkers out of the woodwork. >_> Still waiting for posts from Zionite and Tubba, fr'ex.
Again, my experience is mostly from IRL games, and lurkers obviously aren't a thing in that. It's painfully obvious when someone is failing to contribute in a small room of people staring at each other. Some observation's certainly fine, but I want contributions from everyone.
You co-modded that Apocalypse game Iso ran which just ended recently. I figured a co-mod would know most of the Mafia community by now. Sorry if that assumption was inaccurate?
Do I seem "on edge" in my interactions with JeY, who's actually voting me unlike you? No, because I have no problem with pressure on me; if I were concerned about that, I wouldn't make it a point to be the first one to push through RVS in every game. You, on the other hand, are not being a useful Townie. Fix that *****.
I already explained, well before your post #32, that my issue with his question had nothing to do with fear-mongering and that it wasn't even a real attack; his over-reaction just painted it as such, as Kabazame noted. I just don't like questions that will lead people to scum-read experienced players simply by virtue of their experience, for reasons that should be obvious.
So, if you're scum-reading me, give me real reasons for it, base them on actually reading my posts, and interact with me over them, as JeY is doing. Saying "I have scumvibes but I'm going to sit around and let other people drive the wagon for me" is the scummiest way possible to throw shade.
I have a bad feeling about EternalLurker. Vote will not be moving for now.
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Rodemy, go home, you're drunk.
...oh wait
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I'm not really making you do anything, that comes down to you and your own accord. I'm just trying to get out of rvs, which I think I've succeeded in.
Unvote
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Could you possibly explain all of these a little more in-depth?
Vote: Killjoy
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@Shadow, how do you read that wee bit of self-meta defense EL gives in #47? You say you "feel like he's not being scummy," and does that imply a neutral read?
Don't make me pull out that PR again haha.
Eternal is very aggressive right now. Leaning town for now.
Also, would you like any reading material on how to play as town? I've collected some here and there. A very decent selection can be found here as well.
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Is it possible to express this feeling in more specific terms relating to what EL has said/done?
Was he not being aggressive before Jey voted him?
just correcting this in the meantime: wut
He said "when I feel like you're not being scummy", implying that he currently thinks I am. (Or then-currently, anyway.)
Oh wow, you're right, I completely misread that. Whoops.
Your talking style sounds so unnatural. Who uses words like extrapolate and obfuscate in normal conversation? You seem tense and like you are really thinking out your posts, which could mean you are hiding something and treading carefully. It might also just be the way you always talk, I guess, but it looks suspicious
2. Why do you have the assumption that I have no reasons for scum reading you? When I say I'll stop scum reading you when you stop being scummy, that isn't the extent of my case.
3. Let's lay the cards on the table then shall we? We can even start with the rest of this post and why I find it scummy. Couple things here, you were having a back and forth with Study Latin, whom you self admittedly wanted to pressure. Then you backed off at the behest of KJ saying "TvT", despite having as either "pretty close to null" or "town lean light enough to be null" which are not quite the same, but that's splitting hairs. It's weird to me that you voted for pressure, but unvoted without Study Latin actually reacting, which was your whole point according to you. This is using potential read to threaten me, "I'll scum read you if you don't behave," which is not how organic reads should work. This one is a very light scum ping, but it's got that RVS jokey feel, except you had already pulled out of RVS, so instead comes across and another subtle threat, "if you disagree with me, we could just lynch you." I just don't follow the logic of this post at all.
-You want to move out of RVS
-You voted for something you saw scummy
-But you wouldn't have voted if it hadn't still been RVS...? This is...gross. You definitely assumed the scummiest motivation for Latin's question, but framed it so that he could just say "yup, I'm just a bad player, not scummy," and then when he gets defensive you say "huh, your defensiveness seems odd [read: scummy]" For wanting to get out of RVS, you are sure hiding behind it a bunch. Why would an opening RVS vote make any difference when voting someone for something you actually thought was scummy?
Letting me "Do the honors" is basically saying you want me to start a wagon for you so you can be less responsible for your read.
Consider me as currently voting you, just waiting for the first vote count to confirm the Jey vote worked.
Why does something really thinking out their posts more often come from scum to you?
Lemme read his reactions after hey and I'll get back to you at work, doin an on the spot read. Not alot of time
Eternal solidifying his town status. I like that all his thoughts are out there, and I don't see anything that doesn't track
Latin already looks like a keystone read. More on this, as it develops.
How am I being random?
Who have I attacked except for Eternal?
I don't typically consider myself the aggressive player, might I ask where you're seeing aggression from me?
Vote Count 1.1
EternalLurker - 1 (JeY k)
JeY k - 1 (shadowlancerx)
Killjoy - 2 (Rhand, Study Latin)
LnGrrrR - 1 (Anaklusmos)
Pa Tennis - 2 (BluesEclipse, EternalLurker)
shadowlancerx - 1 (Pa Tennis)
Not Voting - 8 (Kabazame, Killjoy, LnGrrrR, Rodemy, Toastboy, Tubba Fett, Vaimes, Zionite)
With 16 Alive it Takes 9 votes to lynch.
LnGrrrR's vote in #24 has not been counted. Don't put spaces next to bold tags!
You also reminded that votes for people not on the player list will be ignored.
vote Rodemy for not voting.
Do you find anyone else suspicious atm?
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That is cool with me. Whenever you get the time.
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It sounds like you're getting scumvibes from Shadow. Where do you see Shadow's push on EL as coming from scum?
No, I switched targets because Pa Tennis was juicier; KJ suggesting that Study and I were both Town simply made the decision easier. And no, I do consider those to be the same, because null defaults to Town for me; randomness dictates that a null read is more likely to be Town than Mafia, so innocent-until-proven-guilty is my modus operandus.
...What? He totally reacted. In multiple posts. We had a "back-and-forth": your words. So that's simply bull*****.
..."I'll scum-read you if you're acting scummy" is not a threat; it's a basic fact of how Mafia works. Throwing shade at me without any analysis, as you were trying to do, is scummy. Confronting me with details about your reads, as you're currently doing, is perfectly fine.
Man, you're reeeeally ******* stretching for these "reads". I was referencing your own statement about being the best scum player. I was illustrating the problem with the silly idea of focusing attention on the most experienced scum-player, which Latin's question would have done regardless of his intent in so doing.
...It's a transition? I want to move out of RVS, because I hate totally unserious votes, so I start the transition by making semi-serious votes such as that one, with regard to something I see that is potentially scummy but not necessarily so (in this case, something that's equally explicable as just poor play). And it seemed to work just fine at transitioning us out of RVS, regardless of whether or not you're capable of following the logic of it, soooo....
So...you are assuming the scummiest motivation for my response, even when I clearly explained what my actual motivation was, and your argument for my scumminess is that I'm assuming scummy motivations of others (when I'm not)? ******* really now?
explained the transition process above, since apparently it wasn't clear (-.-)
Why are you bringing this up again when I already explained why this was questionable behavior, and when you responded to that explanation by saying that you'd wait for more Vaimes input before you went back to having fun misinterpreting all my statements?
No, it's saying that I already have a vote on someone else at the time that's more relevant for me right now, but if you consider Vaimes to be a good vote, I'd be willing to back you. If I hadn't had other, more pressing vote targets at the time, I would certainly have done the vote myself. Claiming that I don't want to be responsible for my reads when neither of my non-random votes thus far have been piggybacking on anyone else (Latin and Tennis) is, again,, just bull*****.
Thanks for, unlike Rodemy, engaging in an attempt at actual conversation and post analysis, but your analysis is sorely lacking, dude.
Thanks for the link, the posts in question are #38 and #42. I'd just like a little more clarity on the thought process that resulted in those reads, or is it just too early for anything but random vibes?
As the type of person who uses words like that in a typical demeanor it doesn't really have that vibe.
@Study Latin I can't. I'm the worst type of mafia player; my reads are always on point but I have no way to explain them and I can't push lynches effectively. The only town game I've played well was when I was a vig and therefore could take matters into my own hands. Other games I was right most of the time but it amounted to nothing; including the game that caused me to quit for 3 years.
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I don't like shadowlancerx either.
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
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Hmm. You bring up good questions.
I'd classify these as tentative townreads for those two players. It's early in the game, so it's likely Tennis made those reads out of gut-feelings he received from the posts those players made thus far. On page 1, it's a bit early for anything highly alignment indicative to arise, but some players like to come to conclusions on peoples' alignments regardless. It could be seen as a way to quickly get the town out of RVS. I would redirect you to Tennis if you want him to go into more detail on his thoughts here, as I'm not one to interpret everything correctly. However, I could give you an example, for instance, Kabazame was possibly read as town by Tennis for demonstrating cautious and inquisitive new-town behavior in his #13 and #23. Yet, I am not Tennis, so that's just a theory.
I'm as much at a loss on explanation for a good portion of Killjoy's 42 as you are. I am currently seeking a bit more detail on that post.
...how do you read the interactions between Shadow and EL? It seems like you received scumvibes from both of them, but do they sound like unaligned pairs to you? Or don't they?
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I actually studied Spanish. I thought it would be much more applicable in life as opposed to a dead language, but that's just me.
tunneleraccuser...are you suggesting that this is a hardcore Day One bussing attempt by shadow? Cuz that's a highly amusing interpretation of this situation if so.Ugh, yes, thank you. The constant "this is how I feel, but I'm not gonna bother backing it up until I'm interrogated about it" that I'm seeing throughout this thread is driving me mad. That doesn't even happen in IRL games, wherein people are talking at each other much more rapidly; there's definitely no excuse for it whatsoever in a forum game, wherein you have plenty of time to type up at least a short explanation of your reads before hitting Post Reply.
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@shadowlancerx: On that topic, lemme just note a couple apparent playstyle differences between us which might be contributing to why your reads on me are terrible. >_>
You have, on two separate occasions, expressed discontent with my need to know what a person's reasons for a read are, rather than just being satisfied that the person has reasons and I should trust that they're not simply making ***** up. This is...completely nonsensical, because making ***** up is what scum does so obviously I'm gonna want to know why people have the reads that they do. But if your playstyle involves trusting people when they spit out reads without evidence, well, that's your (unhealthy) prerogative, but don't scum-read me for wanting to know more about why people think what they think. That's utterly ridiculous. Town has to communicate; stifling communication is anti-Town behavior. I'll sometimes accept an evidence-less statement if I don't see anything significantly wrong with it (as in Killjoy's statements about Latin and Rodemy), but if there's any disagreement it's basic ******* sense to wanna know why the disagreement exists.
You seem to think that I either have to be totally in RVS mode or completely serious, that off-topic comments or jokes can't ever come from a player like me once RVS is over. I'll just point you to the entirety of post #51 as a counter-example. Being serious and analytical with regard to the basic facts of the game doesn't mean I can't be jokey about matters that are orthogonal to gameplay. Actually, my observation at the beginning of this post about JK's alleged SvS analysis of our conflict, when clearly he doesn't actually believe that, is another example: I'm pointing out that his statements are inconsistent, and I'm doing so in a "somewhat jokey manner", even though RVS ended ages ago. If that's a scum-tell to you, something is seriously wrong with your reads.
I don't understand from where your preconceptions of other players' behavior come, but hopefully you can get past them? Cuz they're...weird at best, and unhealthy at worst.
I am clearly voting seppel. Check your facts.
Not yet. I will though.
Also not just yet. Waiting on a little more of the game to unfold before I go into detail.
I will say that I really, really think that Lurker is town. He's just so... open. In a heart on his sleeve kinda way.And in a way I like.
Of course, scum has to be more cautious when talking because they are trying to appear town. Town players are usually more relaxed and talk more freely.
Usually if someone seems paranoid or nervous, it's not because they're afraid someone will realize they are town lol
This isn't always true but it often is
Not really, but I'm thinking Lurker is town. He's drawing a lot of attention to himself (ironically) when he could be lurking pretty easily. Also I think RVS is beneficial to scum and so him trying to bust out of it as soon as possible is a good sign
Give us your top Town-read and your top Mafia-read, for starters.
I can't see the scum-motivation for EL drawing out an argument like this for so long, and in such fervent defense so early in the game. In #83 he gives a very thought out explanation of playstyle clashes he thinks are aiding in the conflict between him and Shadow. I can follow these clearly, especially his earlier mention of "innocent until proven guilty" approach to the game in #77, as well as the one where he says the intent of some of his posts are lost in translation due to them being written in a "joking" manner.
However, unlike Rodemy, I am unsure if these feelings of frustration can simply be read as town without a deeper explanation. El's reactions to people finding him scummy/towny in what he perceived as "reasonless" fashions seems like he's genuinely frustrated with the lack of explanation they're giving, and would much rather draw that information into the thread. Forcefully. All of which I could see coming from a town mindset.
On another note, none of the angles that Shadow was pushing EL for felt contrived. I am somewhat incredulous as to how they made what looks like a case for a player being scum on page 2, but many of the individual reasons in post #67 made sense to me coming from the approach of a player who uses the scumtell method, (Shadow), quite a bit.
In essence, I think it's quite possible that the playstyle clashes are real between Shadow and El, and Shadow perceiving El's actions as scummy is coming from a town mindset. Along with that, EL's play thus far could be seen as scummy, but the way he's engaging players and his frustration with players' reads seems to me most likely to be coming from a town mindset at this stage in the game.
Also, both players are looking to engage other players outside of their eye-to-eye tunnel, a very good sign.
This is what I have so far.
I'll wait a little on top scumreads because I don't think everyone has posted in the thread yet iirc.
Sorry, I have a bunch of double shifts in a row coming up.
I mean, why would i even want to engage you after that little comment? and also i did engage you, you just decided to.. not want to understand.
Also, you are now moving back to scumlean. You use me as a comparison to shadow stating i didn't engage you when
A: I did.
B: I gave up when you wouldn't actually listen to me.
I said i had you as scumlean for pushing paranoia on Study Latins question. YOu called it leading and then made up a story about why he asked the question. Here it is right here
You took his question and made it scummy. Which.. is pretty scummy.
Saying you didn't like it is fine. But then you voted him for it and your reasoning is.. actually pretty dumb. He asked who the best scum player is. Lets say the answer was Rodemy. (because lets face it. it's totally me) And he used that to push a lynch on me and stir fear.... THAT would be scummy. But you voted him for a thing he didn't do. And said it "sounded" like he was gonna do it. THAT is fearmongoring.
Please, don't dismiss me. And don't insult me with your silly insults. It's a lighthearted game. Keep it that way.
Well he certainly is being agressive towards me.. I just pointed out that one bit about how his attacks felt scummy due to fear mongoring.... and he seems to have it in his head that i would have a novel of information and discussion on the topic.. when i stated all i felt about it. Your question was not scummy nor bad play... it was odd.
i am gonna have to ask why you feel the need to gain site-meta and such from hearsay on this site. Everyone here has a different opinion.
In the two scumgames i have completed, i have been last scum lynched. Does that make me a good scum player? I don't know. But what exactly does that tell you? and what will you use the information you gained from this question for? It is a rather odd question.
They're not "silly insults" and I'd certainly prefer not to dismiss you. But in post #32 you asked me to do something I'd already done twice, implying a lack of effort in reading the thread, and in post #53 you threw shade at me without actually engaging me in conversation in the process. Neither of these made me happy.
I am totally open to actual discussion, however, so let's go.
But...I didn't reinterpret his words as scum-tells. You're the one doing that for my words right now.
I specifically stated that the purpose of Latin's question seemed to be to target the best scum player for fear that a good scum player might otherwise fly under the radar. That is a potentially TOWNIE thing to do in terms of motivation, NOT necessarily a scummy thing. It's just a poor decision (because being experienced is not a scum-tell), which is why I called it a "bad idea" rather than a "scum-tell". I didn't like the question, but it wasn't making me scum-read Latin.
You are struggling to read scummy motivation into this by ignoring the words that you're literally quoting right here. I even stated shortly thereafter that I didn't consider it particularly scummy -- slightly scummy, maybe, but definitely not enough to be worth a vote under normal circumstances. However, during RVS, I'm looking for any little excuse to latch onto something that can break us out of RVS, so that seemed a useful enough conversational focus. As soon as it had served its purpose and I found a better target, I switched to Tennis, where my vote has stayed ever since (since he's still being frustratingly light on the explanations for his reads, although the last post was an improvement).
At no point did I invoke fearmongering tactics against Latin, and I even acknowledged the likelihood of him being Town shortly thereafter when Killjoy brought it up. I'm also very happy with his post #90; I haven't yet decided whether or not shadow is Town, but I appreciate Latin's thought process in defending him.
In fact, my post #89 was somewhat of a hint that I'm growing to trust Latin; I'll leave the details of figuring out why as an exercise for the reader, for now. That'll give me an idea of whether or not people are still misreading my intentions.
A few observations:
I don't see how he is worried. Where are you getting "worried"? Why are you implying he is worried scum? WHERE IS THE JOKER???!!!!!
No but seriously.
Why didn't you just.. ask him? I feel like his response would have warranted a better read than you straight up assuming..
Why am i getting an "Iso" vibe from you? ._.
Sidenote, you are offically voting vaimes at this point. You never unvoted.. but that is not why this pings me.
Why are you so concerned about the fact you already voted vaimes? what are you worried about?
Oh? Explain. give me a PBP (read 2 posts.) I don't buy scumreads based off 2 rvs posts. The only thing you can get a scumlean from my first post is the fact i am voting seppel (my only meta) which would mean you'd mention Jey's vote on iso.. buuut hey you don't mention him at all. So it would have to be my one post about Eternal fearmongoring. What about that pings your scumdar?
not from my phone.
The why did you vote him?
It wasn't
Except when you wanted to vote vaimes...
Except vote him and said he was asking a leading question when he wasn't
I am reading you as scumreading him for it because you VOTED HIM. Jesus. Your switch to him being town doesn't do ***** when the original fact was you said he was asking a leading question and then voted him. a vote means you FOUND IT SCUMMY.
Having just come from a game where I witnessed hardcore Day 1 bussing resulting in a scum getting vig'd and another getting lynched that same day, it's entirely possible.
Also last few times I betrayed my intuition this game it cost me. EternalLurker is the more likely of scum in my suspicions of him and shadowlancerx. Everyone is getting town reads but I don't buy it; not right now.
Nobody else has stood out as anything.
Also @Rodemy the comment I made earlier is hysterical to only me right now but I wanted to leave that there so it could be appreciated later.
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
.. which one?
...Your entire non-argument hinges on the fact that I was voting Latin, which you find so important for reasons that clearly show you're refusing to read what I'm saying...yet you now claim I was voting Vaimes at that point instead of Latin. Nice. This is what I mean when I say you're really not putting effort into reading the thread, and why I'm having difficulty taking your reads seriously.
Anyway, I was not "concerned" about re-voting Vaimes. I was voting a target I preferred; that oddity from Vaimes seemed much less useful as a conversational focus to me for the purpose of breaking everyone out of RVS. I was simply acknowledging that I found it strange in a potentially scummy way, as shadow seemed to be implying he felt as well, and that I would thus be willing to back him in pressuring Vaimes about that issue if necessary. The whole "already voted Vaimes" thing was a joking excuse for keeping my vote where I felt it was more useful at the time; sorry for the confusion that may have caused. Apparently I shouldn't make jokes in games involving you or shadow.
Annnd here we go. I specifically explained that it was a way to help break us out of RVS, in my very next two posts. And it worked, even though the process by which it did so involved shadow turning on me. I'm fine with that. But now you go and repeatedly ask this same question and build your entire argument around it, so I'm quickly giving up any hopes that you'll actually start reading my posts before responding to them.
Clearly the facts don't agree with your opinions. Again.
...What the hell does that even mean in this context?
explained already
annnnnd explained already
So. Yeah. I'm really getting tired of explaining that my vote for Latin was not a "you're definitely scum" vote but a "this is slightly fishy, so let's get people talking about something to break out of RVS" vote. The fact that Latin himself seems to have understood this while you and shadow haven't, no matter how many times I keep repeating this fairly simple concept, is really mind-boggling to me.
shadowlancer was in said game, so I'd imagine he'd've learned that lesson.
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Who's Iso? The guy who posted in sign-ups? I'm reading some of his play in the invitational game, but I'm not that far.
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I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm now curious as to why you think the dialogue between Shadow and EL is scum-theatre.
Are you referring to revolution mafia by any chance? Or another game?
Are you saying you don't think anyone else's townreads on those slots have merit to them?
Gut has the tendency to be wrong in my experience, it's not an always accurate tool, but it is helpful in gaining more concrete reads.
(by the way, you have to unvote in order to change your vote. Soooo your switch from vaimes to latin wasn't actually legit.. but it seems that it doesn't matter to Eco in this game.. or he hasn't said anything yet.)
You mentioned a "Better target" being Tennis. Yet you wanted to vote vaimes before that but couldn't due to the fact "You lead with a vote on him" So vaimes was.. what?
@Latin Okay. Fair enough.
and Idk why iso, just your speech and logic.