I'm torn on it; [Killjoy] had this hidden read of Lurker being pretty strong town, and then when he finally does a breakdown, he basically says "never mind, Lurker could go either way". I see this being one of two ways, either a scum motivated pull back against strongly white knighting someone that they realized could be a viable lynch target after all, or a town mistake with a very honest admittance that he was wrong.
Any particular reason the option of "scum protecting a buddy, then backing off when realizing he might get dragged down with the buddy" doesn't seem probable to you?
@Lurker, do you believe that there are any legitimate reasons for someone to scum read you currently?
Anyone can find reasons for anything if looking hard enough. >_> Still, upon ISO-ing myself as objectively as I can manage, I guess there are two main concerns I'd have:
1) Initially scum-reading two accusers based on their methods of attack (shadowlancerx and Rodemy) while Town-reading one (JeY K) seems like a reasonable mixed response if order isn't considered, but the fact that my Town-read was the last of my accusers to hop on the wagon made it seem like I was getting tired of fending off attacks and decided to go "hey JeY, I'm just gonna Town-read you so you lay off". That wasn't at all my intention, and in fact I'm bordering on scum-reading JeY K atm while mostly Town-reading shadow (though I'm still fairly strongly scum-reading Rodemy). But from an outsider's perspective I think it might have looked like that. My problem at the time was that shadow looked like he was fabricating reasons that were quite a stretch, but when JeY eventually did the same thing despite me initially Town-reading her, I went back and considered that shadow might have just been temporarily tunneled, which can similarly lead to reads that are somewhat of a stretch yet seemingly based in logic.
2) In the reads list of post #115, the only two people who I list as having posted yet not being readable for me (as opposed to the many people who weren't readable simply cuz they hadn't posted significantly) are the only two people who hadn't given opinions about me at the time. Thus, the reads list feels self-centered -- certainly not to the extent of basing my reads of people on their particular opinions of me, but at least in the sense of only having significant reads on the people who at least have some opinion of me one way or the other. I think the main reason for this was simply that, by this point, almost everyone had given an opinion on me, but it does look very self-focused, which is usually a strong scum-tell in my experience. That said, I think I was fairly focused on myself at the time because I'd been defending myself for attacks from quite a while and hadn't been able to look at other people for a while. When Killjoy outlined yet another rehash of shadow and Rodemy's previous posts, I finally sighed and ignored it to focus on more important things than constantly defending myself.
I really wish you posted less though. Like your wall of texts aren't necessary. Be concise pleaseeeeee make some attempt to summarize. And stop dominating the thread. It's just rubbing me the wrong way having super input all from one player and not getting anything from anyone else, because guess who has something else to say...
@Lurker: With the number of people already saying you're town, if you were scum together there's no good reason for KJ not to ride that, especially since he had already said he was town reading you.
Actually thanks, now I think you and KJ are probably unaligned. Cool.
It's making it not fun to even engage with. I can't focus on anyone else because this guy. I can't read anyone but him because he posts every other second. I'm going to keep waiting until I have something to do. Hopefully he won't turn this thread into the Encyclopedia Britannica before I have a chance to see what other players are thinking.
It's making it not fun to even engage with. I can't focus on anyone else because this guy. I can't read anyone but him because he posts every other second. I'm going to keep waiting until I have something to do. Hopefully he won't turn this thread into the Encyclopedia Britannica before I have a chance to see what other players are thinking.
Hey Zionite, how do you feel about real time interactions? Also, do you often get frustrated when one person is a post leader by a significant margin?
I don't know what you mean real time interaction. Like just a back and forth between a couple/few that everyone else reads?
Well, no. You were in the last game with me. I had no problem with Tom directing the town like he did in Apocalypse because it was short and to the point. He was an effective post leader. This is just really getting on my nerves and frustrating me for some reason.
I'm a lil' worried that I might be driving too much activity and thus allowing Rhand+Zionite+Toastboy+Vaimes+LnGrrrR to fall off everyone's radars, as we're all focusing on each other while they have basically not posted yet. I'll back off and slow things down if so; I really wanna let those guys have a chance to come in and post before we end up missing potential scum in that group. Anyone who's more familiar with this forum wanna tell me if three pages by IRL-day 2 of a two-week deadline is considered normal?
No one expressed concerns, so I kept up my posting rate. If it's a problem, I have no issues slowing down. In fact, I am slower throughout the later Days; I just like to drive interactions on Day One, since Town has no other source of information than communication on Day One.
I'm not slowing down all the way to your rate of near-nonexistence, though, so if you're just worried that my posting is making your lurking stand out all the more, that's not going to change.
Yeah and I don't want to tell you how to play your game. I just want to speak up if I'm getting annoyed with the frequency and length. Sorry I missed your statement regarding such, but you can see this illustrates my point that I'm simply not reading it because it's too much.
Grapefruit21 Replaced BlueEclipse. Everyone give him a warm welcome.
You are also reminded that if you have extra spaces next to your bold tags, you vote will not be counted (eg #202, #193). If your vote is not counted, simply revote with the correct syntax.
*shrug* You can tell me how to play the game. I may disagree -- even vehemently -- but no subject of conversation is off-limits. This is Mafia. It's about communication.
I'll try to post less frequently, but my average post length may be somewhat longer to compensate. Let's give it a whirl and see how it goes.
I think zionite is probably town.
As far as real time, yeah, basically just a back and forth conversation of quick snippets, think discord rather than forum.
Obviously I'm town reading EL, but I'm fuzzy on the other 14 players we have. I'd like to know immediately if anyone is scum reading EL and why. We have plenty there to discuss.
I'm mainly looking at Kazabame. I want to know where Vaimes is at on his light town read on him, but he's V/LA til Friday. As an aside, when did light reads become part of our vernacular? It's non-committal scum language. Own your reads, even if they're weak. Be wrong sometimes.
I was looking at Tubba Fett too, and I agree with his reads so far. Especially in 193 calling out JeY for backpedalling. Let's look into JeY.
196 and 192 do seem to contradict however. What is the purpose of 192?
EL's latest posts are looking good, actually. I always believe, especially this early, that we shouldn't really be so terrified to mislynch.
I feel like it could say "doesn't matter if he's town". But if he's town, it actually quite matters a lot. The entire tone of these two sentences is a town read on EL.
But in 196 JeY denies this, saying scum is capable of making good posts too. True, but if that is the case, why mention a mislynch?
@EternalLurker I read what you think Zionite's posts are and I read them myself and I'm raising an eyebrow. -re-reads both-
...I don't think he's rationalizing his 'excuse' for lurking.
I played with Zionite before and his posts read like the ones that helped me catch the last scum in that game. That's not really concrete in terms of just this game, but it's more than simply instinct.
@Study Latin More scumhunting and less pillowforting. I want to encourage this behavior for better analysis. It's true that if I believe he's scum he's going to be 'scumhunting' townies but more good posts = better analysis later.
You're right, they don't, but they sure do get the birds chirping.
@shadowlancerx Ugh, I hate this story. I was incredibly upset; I caught scum early day 1 and got the rest of town to get on board with it for once, but because it was so soon I unvoted so we could continue playing the day and then everyone refused to lynch him from that point on. Everyone's reasoning was "Because you unvoted him". I was so angry. Scum won because the game was going so poorly I stopped analyzing and just went through the motions; I knew something fishy was happening but I was so demoralized I bother asking why it seemed fishy. After the game and a heated rant, almost no one bothered to explain to me why unvoting someone makes them unlynchable.
...Gosh just telling that now I feel so angry.
@Zionite Hi!
I'm just encouraging the current behavior EternalLurker's been having as opposed to his previous posts in the game.
I was mentioning mislynching because EternalLurker was.
IMPORTANT: LOLLIPOP BY AQUA JUST CAME ON MY MUSIC PLAYER AND I FORGOT I HAD THIS SONG AND I AM SO MUCH HAPPIER NOW YESSSS.
-ehem-. As I was saying, ...I have to go back and read his post again now. -read- Oh yeah! He wanted people to post more so there were more interactions etc. because even if we lynch a townie get get a trove of info, which I agree with. Obviously I'm not about to lynch someone I think is town, but it's not a game-ender Day 1 (at least it shouldn't be >_>).
I sternly believe EternalLurker is not a mislynch.
Btw shadow, to give you an idea of how much an effect that game had on me, I've thought about moving my vote a couple times and I just get flashbacks of that game and it's primarily why I'm not doing it.
I'll vote when I want to vote. You guys can attack me for it all you want, but I'm not going to just vote someone when I'm not feeling it to please anyone. Think about this though: what do I gain as scum from doing that? I actually stick out for not voting enough that several people called me on it.
@shadowlancer
My strongest town read is EL because he's very active and confrontational. This is probably the worst town style to emulate because it's the one that gets mislynched the most, so it's probably genuine. As scum there's no real reason to argue over small stuff and make a lot of enemies, so I think he's either town or really playing poorly as scum.
Most enigmatic player... well a lot of people have barely posted so I'm not sure. But Tubba Fett is new and new players are always hard to read because they don't conform to the usual play styles a lot of times. Usually how I read new players is try to get them to slip information they shouldn't have, or look into their interactions with dead players who's alignment is known
@toastboy
- I also play in Japanese, and I guess English is my "mother tongue" cause all of my school was in the USA but I'm fluent in both
- I said shadowlurker vs EL looks like a classic TVT, that doesn't mean I can't be wrong. Outside of that, I think EL looks better
- Yes, votes can be moved as much as I like. But I prefer to move it less because it has more impact. This is a Magic forum, what's more valuable, a common card you have 20 copies of or a Mystic Rare? Basically, my vote is stronger if I vote less frequently because you know I'm serious.
- I am posting more now because there is more to talk about! Honestly the first four pages was just a bunch or arguing about things that didn't really matter. The game is finally starting to pick up
Anak - he made a good point on Lngr being making that vote as scum and being able to adjust his motives based on the situation. Overall hasn't done much though but leaning town
[...]
Zionite - barely shows up and posts nothing much when he does. I think he has like 2 posts
They had posted about as much as each other at this point, why are these different reads?
</blockquote>
Forgot to answer this: post count and amount of content are two very different things. Anak said more in one post than Zionite said in like 6
@JeY: I believe you, but I think you haven't really made clear how EL is scum. It's hard to get on board with your insider knowledge argument. I don't feel like you're actually trying to compel anyone, which is unique given your story about being persuasive.
Okay through three pages and quick impressions: Blue was obv!Town. Just wish they'd left me more opinions to compare too.
Lurker is pretty obv town, but wants the game to move at a much faster pace than it is and appears scummy for that. The bouncing around is an awful look, but the content is very good. Only things that give me even slight pause was his move on Anak. Proclaiming Anak to be pretty scummy before walking it back after nothing changing. And his need to make everything about him. I don't like the way posts frame scumminess on it's relation to him. Eg: His read on Blue, his read on Pa Tennis (which I agree with but not for those reasons), and the way he reacted to Zion popping up after he posted about lurkers. Because I think he's more town than not overall I'm reading it charitably as "I'm super obviously town, and really good at the game, so people are warping their play around me." Now I don't think that is true but I can see someone making that case to themselves and I'd be surprised if he was doing that as scum.
Off topic I think it's going to be hard to be in two games with a bunch of the same people running simultaneously.
Shadow is reasonably town. Minus the weird question towards Kaba.
Toast is super town.
Rod is kind of town. But also Rod.
Latin is pretty good so far.
Very torn on Pa Tennis. Some posts and reactions that give me strong town vibes and some that give me strong scum ones. Generally when I'm getting both that strongly I lean towards scum.
Strongly agree with Toast's case against Kaba right now.
Not sure what to make of JeY. She is the person I'm having the hardest trouble getting a handle on right now.
Would really appreciate a sanity check on the RVS double standard thing.
Rodemy is attacking Killjoy, literally saying he must justify an opinion because it's unjustifiable. He is, by his own paramaters, putting Killjoy in an impossible position. Again, for saying the words "potential light scumread"
Shadow was probing for meaning in Eternal/Vaimes' posts while his own seemed crafted to have none. But both him and Eternal really seem to be at the same place from different directions. Where Shadow was random early on real solving seems to have steadily crept in, and really that's all Eternal seems to have been doing with yes serious but not super serious pushing he just doesn't think of it as random at all.
So, to answer your question @Latin:
I think that was likely a town v town argument with a fair helping of meta clash.
So this post. This is one giving me town feelings. Even if I think the implications of the questions are off base.
To answer them (and they've probably been answered in the interim) Rod is like that. He's aggressive, bombastic, and works in absolutes as both alignments. It makes him very hard to read. So yes his poking at KJ is unreasonable, but it's very in character for Rod.
With Shadow pushing for meaning but seeming to have none in his I think there is value in it. Forcing people to justify posts is the key aspect of the game. And if there wasn't meaning in early posts that is fine, but trying to find intent is giving me town vibes from Shadow. He is trying to hold people accountable.
@Jey, sorry, was not trying to drudge up negative emotion. I can assure you that unvoting someone as a wagon leader is not going to be a reason not to lynch them.
@Kabaz, have you heard of the theory of TSTBS (too scummy to be scum) and what do you think of it? Do you think you'd apply it to Lurker?
@Lingerer/Spyro, first off, okay for me to call you one of those, cause I'm not about this chain on consonants. Second, how much faith do you put into vote analysis?
@Grapefruit, regarding the question to Kabaz, I feel like something that gets overlooked a lot is how difficult it can be for scum to justify a town read, and how difficult it is to fake being perplexed by someone's alignment, because scum always know. Faking a scum read is easy, there's a reason scum win games, townies can look scummy, and scum can bus.
Well, the vote wasn't random now that you address it. He gave a reason for it which he states in #21.
I asked questions about that reasoning because the post it's based off of doesn't seem all that alignment indicative fmpov.
This is just the way I talk and think.
I haven't really done a lot so far, nor have a majority of the people in the game.
As for me "hiding" something, what from my posts feels like scum obfuscating their alignment? I'm curious as to what you see semantically that you find scummy.
Your talking style sounds so unnatural. Who uses words like extrapolate and obfuscate in normal conversation? You seem tense and like you are really thinking out your posts, which could mean you are hiding something and treading carefully. It might also just be the way you always talk, I guess, but it looks suspicious
I've used both "extrapolate" and "obfuscate" both in Mafia and real life all the time.
Why does something really thinking out their posts more often come from scum to you?
This is the question I was referring to Shadow for clarity's sake. Is that the one you thought I was referring to?
@Toasty: Something came up in the middle of writing the post and I just posted what I had.
The original idea that I had going into that was that Lurker/Latin was town on town, and I was trying to show that, but as I read more into Lurker the more I realized there were things in his posts that didn't make sense.
I'm working on a T/S List/Rest of the post in the mix.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I'll vote when I want to vote. You guys can attack me for it all you want, but I'm not going to just vote someone when I'm not feeling it to please anyone. Think about this though: what do I gain as scum from doing that? I actually stick out for not voting enough that several people called me on it.
@shadowlancer
My strongest town read is EL because he's very active and confrontational. This is probably the worst town style to emulate because it's the one that gets mislynched the most, so it's probably genuine. As scum there's no real reason to argue over small stuff and make a lot of enemies, so I think he's either town or really playing poorly as scum.
Most enigmatic player... well a lot of people have barely posted so I'm not sure. But Tubba Fett is new and new players are always hard to read because they don't conform to the usual play styles a lot of times. Usually how I read new players is try to get them to slip information they shouldn't have, or look into their interactions with dead players who's alignment is known
@toastboy
- I also play in Japanese, and I guess English is my "mother tongue" cause all of my school was in the USA but I'm fluent in both
- I said shadowlurker vs EL looks like a classic TVT, that doesn't mean I can't be wrong. Outside of that, I think EL looks better
- Yes, votes can be moved as much as I like. But I prefer to move it less because it has more impact. This is a Magic forum, what's more valuable, a common card you have 20 copies of or a Mystic Rare? Basically, my vote is stronger if I vote less frequently because you know I'm serious.
- I am posting more now because there is more to talk about! Honestly the first four pages was just a bunch or arguing about things that didn't really matter. The game is finally starting to pick up
Here's the rub with abstaining from voting like that. You could totally be genuine in your reasoning above, in fact I actually believe you. However, it makes you come off as someone who either doesn't want to rock the boat inadvertantly by voting, or doesn't know who they should vote without drawing scrutiny onto themselves. Who is more likely to want to keep their head down, town or scum? Not voting anyone is one of the best ways to avoid the limelight.
Does that make sense? I want you to commit and vote someone in one of your next 2 posts, I really want to see where your heads at.
@Jey I know you think EL is scum, but I can't for the life of me figure out why you think that. Would greatly appreciate a ELI5 on it, it feels a bit contrived.
Oh hey Grapefruits scum. That's neat.
Vote: Grapefruit21
You in your catch up post cursory reads on everyone, then vote the one person you didn't mention, citing hopping on the wagon. Talk about an action that's trying to let you blend in and back out if needed.
Here's the rub with abstaining from voting like that. You could totally be genuine in your reasoning above, in fact I actually believe you. However, it makes you come off as someone who either doesn't want to rock the boat inadvertantly by voting, or doesn't know who they should vote without drawing scrutiny onto themselves. Who is more likely to want to keep their head down, town or scum? Not voting anyone is one of the best ways to avoid the limelight.
Does that make sense? I want you to commit and vote someone in one of your next 2 posts, I really want to see where your heads at.
I understand that completely, but there are two counter-points I could make. First of all, not voting is clearly having the exact opposite effect and is actually thrusting me into the limelight, as several people have noticed it and attacked me for it. Secondly, I'm not really concerned if I look scummy this early into the Day. In fact, I'm totally fine with it!
Regardless, I probably wouldn't vote just because you told me too, but Grapefruit was nice enough to just claim scum
Vote: Grapefruit21
You can't just say "I agree with everything toast said" without providing your own thoughts and jump on an easy bandwagon. You're buddying up to Toast calling him "super town" with no reason, same with Rod. Most of your reads are just town or scum with nothing explaining it, except Lurker who everyone has already talked to death about.
@Jey, sorry, was not trying to drudge up negative emotion. I can assure you that unvoting someone as a wagon leader is not going to be a reason not to lynch them.
@Kabaz, have you heard of the theory of TSTBS (too scummy to be scum) and what do you think of it? Do you think you'd apply it to Lurker?
@Lingerer/Spyro, first off, okay for me to call you one of those, cause I'm not about this chain on consonants. Second, how much faith do you put into vote analysis?
@Grapefruit, regarding the question to Kabaz, I feel like something that gets overlooked a lot is how difficult it can be for scum to justify a town read, and how difficult it is to fake being perplexed by someone's alignment, because scum always know. Faking a scum read is easy, there's a reason scum win games, townies can look scummy, and scum can bus.
Nope, but I can guess what it means. Is it like WIFOM (Wine In Front Of Me)? Anyway, I don't think it applies to Lurker because I don't think he's scummy.
Here's the rub with abstaining from voting like that. You could totally be genuine in your reasoning above, in fact I actually believe you. However, it makes you come off as someone who either doesn't want to rock the boat inadvertantly by voting, or doesn't know who they should vote without drawing scrutiny onto themselves. Who is more likely to want to keep their head down, town or scum? Not voting anyone is one of the best ways to avoid the limelight.
Does that make sense? I want you to commit and vote someone in one of your next 2 posts, I really want to see where your heads at.
I understand that completely, but there are two counter-points I could make. First of all, not voting is clearly having the exact opposite effect and is actually thrusting me into the limelight, as several people have noticed it and attacked me for it. Secondly, I'm not really concerned if I look scummy this early into the Day. In fact, I'm totally fine with it!
Regardless, I probably wouldn't vote just because you told me too, but Grapefruit was nice enough to just claim scum
Vote: Grapefruit21
You can't just say "I agree with everything toast said" without providing your own thoughts and jump on an easy bandwagon. You're buddying up to Toast calling him "super town" with no reason, same with Rod. Most of your reads are just town or scum with nothing explaining it, except Lurker who everyone has already talked to death about.
Anything original to add?
Sure, you're now OMGUS'ing me which is a nice tell. And it got Anak to come out of the woodwork and attack me for a weak reason. So there is that too.
But no I can't add much original because most of the ground has already been covered. If you have anything in particular you want me to weigh in on ask away though. And the point of a catch up post is too give reads and state where my head is at. I pulled a few things I thought needed to be discussed but hadn't been and left all the things discussed to death alone.
@Kabazame while I'm at it what do you think of that quote from Shadow? It strikes me as a very strange question to ask, but I'm interested in what you think of it.
@Jey, sorry, was not trying to drudge up negative emotion. I can assure you that unvoting someone as a wagon leader is not going to be a reason not to lynch them.
@Kabaz, have you heard of the theory of TSTBS (too scummy to be scum) and what do you think of it? Do you think you'd apply it to Lurker?
@Lingerer/Spyro, first off, okay for me to call you one of those, cause I'm not about this chain on consonants. Second, how much faith do you put into vote analysis?
@Grapefruit, regarding the question to Kabaz, I feel like something that gets overlooked a lot is how difficult it can be for scum to justify a town read, and how difficult it is to fake being perplexed by someone's alignment, because scum always know. Faking a scum read is easy, there's a reason scum win games, townies can look scummy, and scum can bus.
Nope, but I can guess what it means. Is it like WIFOM (Wine In Front Of Me)? Anyway, I don't think it applies to Lurker because I don't think he's scummy.
Ohhh and because this didn't show up when I was typing what does WIFOM (which you seem to understand) have to do with TBSTS? The other part of your answer I follow, but I don't get the comparison.
You actually only gave your thoughts on Lurker... the single most discussed topic in the game.
and no one else has said Toast is "super town" so that ground has definitely not been covered. Why do you think Rodemy is town? You didn't provide any reasoning for your reads. It's like you just want to look like you're playing but aren't really
Add that to shameless bandwagoning and extreme buddying (pocketing?) with Toast and you've got a recipe for scum. This is like straight out of the "how to find scum 101" textbook
You actually only gave your thoughts on Lurker... the single most discussed topic in the game.
and no one else has said Toast is "super town" so that ground has definitely not been covered. Why do you think Rodemy is town? You didn't provide any reasoning for your reads. It's like you just want to look like you're playing but aren't really
Add that to shameless bandwagoning and extreme buddying (pocketing?) with Toast and you've got a recipe for scum. This is like straight out of the "how to find scum 101" textbook
Rod is town for a few things, first his unprompted post 1 flavor claim. Second his tenacity and bounciness. He does this as both alignments (see bare bones) but this feels more like Rod from Mistborn. His no way out question that Pa Tennis was talking about stands out to me.
I'll get to my read on toast, but first was it an easy bandwagon to join? Or was toast someone who isn't being widely town read? I'm confused?
As for where the town read comes from: 145 is about as townie of a wall as they come. His nuanced take of EL's play being a symptom of irl mafia is smart and on point after thinking about it. And I love his confidence to walk back his read on my slot. He entered town reading Blue, but backed it off. Which makes sense to me. As town giant walls full of questions are the easiest thing to mistakenly town read and Toast walked it back without taking any pressure over that read.
Ohh and since you're asking for things that haven't been discussed: Zionite feels really town to me. Don't ask for a basis because I don't have one beyond tone. And I don't want to try to explain that right now. Ask again later.
vote JeY
Sticking to my guns for now.
The back and forth on EL isn't the problem, it's more the timing of it. Also, finding "gut feelings" suspicious. Makes me wonder if you have inside information?
@Grapefruit
Can you explain a little more on Rodemy? You seem to be pretty sure while saying everything but the flavor (lol) is just Rodemy being Rodemy. And I'm not sure how not reading is a personality trait.
Vote from Kabazame was awkward, but it probably always would be when you finally vote after talking about why you didn't vote.
Anaklusmos' posts are really impactful. Seems pretty town for 4 posts.
EL's latest posts are looking good, actually. I always believe, especially this early, that we shouldn't really be so terrified to mislynch.
I feel like it could say "doesn't matter if he's town". But if he's town, it actually quite matters a lot. The entire tone of these two sentences is a town read on EL.
But in 196 JeY denies this, saying scum is capable of making good posts too. True, but if that is the case, why mention a mislynch?
Think you're misreading this. JeY's not saying Town shouldn't be afraid to mislynch me, as if hedging with her read on me; she's saying that she likes my post, in part because I said that Town shouldn't be afraid of a Day One mislynch.
Annnnnd I've now caught up enough to see that JeY already explained this, but I'm too lazy to delete it. {:^#{{
I was. He was in the top section of my reads list (bottom section of the post). He's maintained his refusal to vote despite multiple requests not to do so, however, which has now raised red flags for me. Voting leaves a trackable pattern (due to the official vote counts), and not voting thus seems like a method of not committing to any reads.
El, can you link to Jey previous post referring to Shadow's #104? Also, why do you not focus on this more? Such a logical inconsistency seems to go against your town read of Jey.
JeY referenced shadow's #104 as a Town-tell in her post right before that one. I had already spent an entire post discussing how logically inconsistent JeY is (to which she amusingly responded by trying to reframe her own previous statements while simultaneously claiming that she always stands by everything she says), so I didn't feel that much need to go into it again.
My Town-read of JeY is evaporating, as I've noted. However, earlier posts always hold more weight than later posts for me, because it's easier for scum to adapt their playstyles to people's wishes as the game goes on. So for now her earlier Townie posts are still more relevant to me than the more recent scummy posts. (It's also common for scum to get more confident about pushing things after they've been widely Town-read, so a Town-to-Mafia posting style progression can still mean a person is scummy, but JeY wasn't being widely Town-read at the time of her descent so I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt.)
I'm, uh, definitely not voting myself. Pretty sure I was voting BluesEclipse. Did you somehow alias "BluesEclipse" to me instead of to Grapefruit?
I'll update to the replacement so you don't need to alias it at all (since I'm pretty sure I was the only one voting BluesEclipse). Vote: Grapefruit21
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Re: Grapefruit
Man, I hate seeing someone replace in and go "Oh hey I'm replacing in for obv-Town that's so great", especially when Blues was...not obv-Town. It's such a gross way to try to steal an undeserved Town-read.
Calling KZ's vote an OMGUS scum-tell is just straight-up misleading. Toastboy's been on KZ for a while and KZ's never shown any indication of wanting to vote in retaliation. He's voting GF now because he believes in the vote.
I like most of the content of GF's reads-list, though, especially the way that he seems legitimately undecided on Tennis' alignment. (As long as he explains his Toast read in more depth, cuz I'm not seeing Toast as "super town".) Overall, enough Town points and enough Mafia points that I'm pretty much exactly where I was on Blues pre-replacement (maybe sliiiightly more Town-leaning than before), so my vote stands for now.
I will note that if either Toastboy or GF flips scum I'll probably lynch the other on the next Day. GF saying that he'll jump on the "KZ bandwagon" when Toastboy was literally the only other KZ vote is a fairly strong hint that the two are aligned: people tend to give their allies' votes a little more subconscious weight, thinking there's more pressure against a person that an ally's voting than there might actually be.
Re: Grapefruit
Man, I hate seeing someone replace in and go "Oh hey I'm replacing in for obv-Town that's so great", especially when Blues was...not obv-Town. It's such a gross way to try to steal an undeserved Town-read.
Calling KZ's vote an OMGUS scum-tell is just straight-up misleading. Toastboy's been on KZ for a while and KZ's never shown any indication of wanting to vote in retaliation. He's voting GF now because he believes in the vote.
How do you know that? For someone who has been very cautious of reading people's motives that is a big jump. As for why I think it's OMGUS the defensiveness stands out to me. Swinging back and forth from calling it and easy wagon to jump on (1 Vote) to saying that Toast isn't widely town read doesn't line up. Feels forced.
Plus the new guy who posted a lazy catch up wall is a much easier target than the guy who posted a thorough catch up wall. Especially when the new guy replaces into a slot that some were already scum reading.
I like most of the content of GF's reads-list, though, especially the way that he seems legitimately undecided on Tennis' alignment. (As long as he explains his Toast read in more depth, cuz I'm not seeing Toast as "super town".) Overall, enough Town points and enough Mafia points that I'm pretty much exactly where I was on Blues pre-replacement (maybe sliiiightly more Town-leaning than before), so my vote stands for now.
I will note that if either Toastboy or GF flips scum I'll probably lynch the other on the next Day. GF saying that he'll jump on the "KZ bandwagon" when Toastboy was literally the only other KZ vote is a fairly strong hint that the two are aligned: people tend to give their allies' votes a little more subconscious weight, thinking there's more pressure against a person that an ally's voting than there might actually be.
Fair enough. I'll post more when I have more. But for now my earlier explanation for toast stands. His read on you and his progression on Blue were very townie.
I'm torn on it; he had this hidden read of Lurker being pretty strong town, and then when he finally does a breakdown, he basically says "never mind, Lurker could go either way". I see this being one of two ways, either a scum motivated pull back against strongly white knighting someone that they realized could be a viable lynch target after all, or a town mistake with a very honest admittance that he was wrong. I'm trying to decide if KJ would have been willing to stick to his original leaning as scum, but I don't think he would have.
I foresaw this being a problem, and me trying to draw an earlier response out of KJ was in-part trying to avoid this.
Much like yourself, I have no clear perception on whether it's coming from scum or town. However, do you think the reasoning itself feels like KJ is approaching Me vs. Lurker from the mindset of town?
The other three that I'd like to focus on a bit more are Kabaz, Toastboy, and KJ. I feel reasonably confident that there is at least one scum in that grouping. To clarify before it's asked, not because of their interactions with each other, but because those three specifically stood out as curious when I did my isos.
Could you possibly give an example of what made them 'stand out' in their ISOs?
Or at least, please explain why their posting style caused this to occur.
Okay through three pages and quick impressions: Blue was obv!Town. Just wish they'd left me more opinions to compare too.
Lurker is pretty obv town, but wants the game to move at a much faster pace than it is and appears scummy for that. The bouncing around is an awful look, but the content is very good. Only things that give me even slight pause was his move on Anak. Proclaiming Anak to be pretty scummy before walking it back after nothing changing. And his need to make everything about him. I don't like the way posts frame scumminess on it's relation to him. Eg: His read on Blue, his read on Pa Tennis (which I agree with but not for those reasons), and the way he reacted to Zion popping up after he posted about lurkers. Because I think he's more town than not overall I'm reading it charitably as "I'm super obviously town, and really good at the game, so people are warping their play around me." Now I don't think that is true but I can see someone making that case to themselves and I'd be surprised if he was doing that as scum.
Off topic I think it's going to be hard to be in two games with a bunch of the same people running simultaneously.
Shadow is reasonably town. Minus the weird question towards Kaba.
Toast is super town.
Rod is kind of town. But also Rod.
Latin is pretty good so far.
Very torn on Pa Tennis. Some posts and reactions that give me strong town vibes and some that give me strong scum ones. Generally when I'm getting both that strongly I lean towards scum.
Strongly agree with Toast's case against Kaba right now.
Not sure what to make of JeY. She is the person I'm having the hardest trouble getting a handle on right now.
Back to reading.
I have many questions on this, similar to Rhand's readlist, but I'm uncertain where to start.
Could you possibly do a recap on every individual under EL?
To answer them (and they've probably been answered in the interim) Rod is like that. He's aggressive, bombastic, and works in absolutes as both alignments. It makes him very hard to read. So yes his poking at KJ is unreasonable, but it's very in character for Rod.
@Toasty: Something came up in the middle of writing the post and I just posted what I had.
The original idea that I had going into that was that Lurker/Latin was town on town, and I was trying to show that, but as I read more into Lurker the more I realized there were things in his posts that didn't make sense.
I'm working on a T/S List/Rest of the post in the mix.
I'm curious as to why you didn't respond to me or my vote when I addressed you about those reads, and instead postponed said explanation.
You in your catch up post cursory reads on everyone, then vote the one person you didn't mention, citing hopping on the wagon. Talk about an action that's trying to let you blend in and back out if needed.
I know I asked this previously, but could you still go into detail on why you think EL vs Lurker is TvT?
Why not ask Grape to explain his reads before jumping to conclusions?
Ohh and since you're asking for things that haven't been discussed: Zionite feels really town to me. Don't ask for a basis because I don't have one beyond tone. And I don't want to try to explain that right now. Ask again later.
As for why I think it's OMGUS the defensiveness stands out to me. Swinging back and forth from calling it and easy wagon to jump on (1 Vote) to saying that Toast isn't widely town read doesn't line up. Feels forced.
I don't see this happening nor do I understand this narrative of scum!Kabazame omgus voting you.
@Shadow, what do you think of GF's entrance to the game? What do you think about him finding Kabazame scummy for his push?
@Study Latin
Not going to do a recap for everyone. Most of it is regurgitating other peoples points.
Rods push on Jey feels genuine. But that is Rods strength as both alignments. I have no problem with it but I also don't find it persuasive.
With Kabazame the way they have focused on things that are not remotely alignment indicative. Your word choice, defending their lack of voting, and now pushing me as a knee jerk reaction.
Not yet on Zionite. Ask again laterer.
A question for you; do you think OMGUS is a tell at all? Not in this case but in general? And why do you take issue (question) Anak for their vote on me, but not Kaba when they were very similar in tone and text?
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Anyone can find reasons for anything if looking hard enough. >_> Still, upon ISO-ing myself as objectively as I can manage, I guess there are two main concerns I'd have:
1) Initially scum-reading two accusers based on their methods of attack (shadowlancerx and Rodemy) while Town-reading one (JeY K) seems like a reasonable mixed response if order isn't considered, but the fact that my Town-read was the last of my accusers to hop on the wagon made it seem like I was getting tired of fending off attacks and decided to go "hey JeY, I'm just gonna Town-read you so you lay off". That wasn't at all my intention, and in fact I'm bordering on scum-reading JeY K atm while mostly Town-reading shadow (though I'm still fairly strongly scum-reading Rodemy). But from an outsider's perspective I think it might have looked like that. My problem at the time was that shadow looked like he was fabricating reasons that were quite a stretch, but when JeY eventually did the same thing despite me initially Town-reading her, I went back and considered that shadow might have just been temporarily tunneled, which can similarly lead to reads that are somewhat of a stretch yet seemingly based in logic.
2) In the reads list of post #115, the only two people who I list as having posted yet not being readable for me (as opposed to the many people who weren't readable simply cuz they hadn't posted significantly) are the only two people who hadn't given opinions about me at the time. Thus, the reads list feels self-centered -- certainly not to the extent of basing my reads of people on their particular opinions of me, but at least in the sense of only having significant reads on the people who at least have some opinion of me one way or the other. I think the main reason for this was simply that, by this point, almost everyone had given an opinion on me, but it does look very self-focused, which is usually a strong scum-tell in my experience. That said, I think I was fairly focused on myself at the time because I'd been defending myself for attacks from quite a while and hadn't been able to look at other people for a while. When Killjoy outlined yet another rehash of shadow and Rodemy's previous posts, I finally sighed and ignored it to focus on more important things than constantly defending myself.
Actually thanks, now I think you and KJ are probably unaligned. Cool.
Well, no. You were in the last game with me. I had no problem with Tom directing the town like he did in Apocalypse because it was short and to the point. He was an effective post leader. This is just really getting on my nerves and frustrating me for some reason.
Except I very specifically addressed this and got no responses.
No one expressed concerns, so I kept up my posting rate. If it's a problem, I have no issues slowing down. In fact, I am slower throughout the later Days; I just like to drive interactions on Day One, since Town has no other source of information than communication on Day One.
I'm not slowing down all the way to your rate of near-nonexistence, though, so if you're just worried that my posting is making your lurking stand out all the more, that's not going to change.
You are also reminded that if you have extra spaces next to your bold tags, you vote will not be counted (eg #202, #193). If your vote is not counted, simply revote with the correct syntax.
Vote Count coming in about 10 hours.
I'll try to post less frequently, but my average post length may be somewhat longer to compensate. Let's give it a whirl and see how it goes.
As far as real time, yeah, basically just a back and forth conversation of quick snippets, think discord rather than forum.
Obviously I'm town reading EL, but I'm fuzzy on the other 14 players we have. I'd like to know immediately if anyone is scum reading EL and why. We have plenty there to discuss.
I'm mainly looking at Kazabame. I want to know where Vaimes is at on his light town read on him, but he's V/LA til Friday. As an aside, when did light reads become part of our vernacular? It's non-committal scum language. Own your reads, even if they're weak. Be wrong sometimes.
I was looking at Tubba Fett too, and I agree with his reads so far. Especially in 193 calling out JeY for backpedalling. Let's look into JeY.
196 and 192 do seem to contradict however. What is the purpose of 192?
I feel like it could say "doesn't matter if he's town". But if he's town, it actually quite matters a lot. The entire tone of these two sentences is a town read on EL.
But in 196 JeY denies this, saying scum is capable of making good posts too. True, but if that is the case, why mention a mislynch?
Vote JeY
But Rodemys reaction to Killjoy still makes no sense from a town perspective. Think he's pretty likely scum.
I had an impression they weren't partners though. Will have to figure out why I thought that.
...I don't think he's rationalizing his 'excuse' for lurking.
I played with Zionite before and his posts read like the ones that helped me catch the last scum in that game. That's not really concrete in terms of just this game, but it's more than simply instinct.
@Study Latin More scumhunting and less pillowforting. I want to encourage this behavior for better analysis. It's true that if I believe he's scum he's going to be 'scumhunting' townies but more good posts = better analysis later.
You're right, they don't, but they sure do get the birds chirping.
@shadowlancerx Ugh, I hate this story. I was incredibly upset; I caught scum early day 1 and got the rest of town to get on board with it for once, but because it was so soon I unvoted so we could continue playing the day and then everyone refused to lynch him from that point on. Everyone's reasoning was "Because you unvoted him". I was so angry. Scum won because the game was going so poorly I stopped analyzing and just went through the motions; I knew something fishy was happening but I was so demoralized I bother asking why it seemed fishy. After the game and a heated rant, almost no one bothered to explain to me why unvoting someone makes them unlynchable.
...Gosh just telling that now I feel so angry.
@Zionite Hi!
I'm just encouraging the current behavior EternalLurker's been having as opposed to his previous posts in the game.
I was mentioning mislynching because EternalLurker was.
IMPORTANT: LOLLIPOP BY AQUA JUST CAME ON MY MUSIC PLAYER AND I FORGOT I HAD THIS SONG AND I AM SO MUCH HAPPIER NOW YESSSS.
-ehem-. As I was saying, ...I have to go back and read his post again now. -read- Oh yeah! He wanted people to post more so there were more interactions etc. because even if we lynch a townie get get a trove of info, which I agree with. Obviously I'm not about to lynch someone I think is town, but it's not a game-ender Day 1 (at least it shouldn't be >_>).
I sternly believe EternalLurker is not a mislynch.
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
Oh, it was this. I guess if scumRodemy is just voting people for silly out of context ***** why wouldn't he just do the same to his buddies? Shrug.
Tubba-Shadow-Toast-Kabazame
NULL - Killjoy-Zionite-Anak-Vaimes-Lngrr-Rhand
BluesGrapefruit-Jey
SCUM - Rodemy
I'll vote when I want to vote. You guys can attack me for it all you want, but I'm not going to just vote someone when I'm not feeling it to please anyone. Think about this though: what do I gain as scum from doing that? I actually stick out for not voting enough that several people called me on it.
@shadowlancer
My strongest town read is EL because he's very active and confrontational. This is probably the worst town style to emulate because it's the one that gets mislynched the most, so it's probably genuine. As scum there's no real reason to argue over small stuff and make a lot of enemies, so I think he's either town or really playing poorly as scum.
Most enigmatic player... well a lot of people have barely posted so I'm not sure. But Tubba Fett is new and new players are always hard to read because they don't conform to the usual play styles a lot of times. Usually how I read new players is try to get them to slip information they shouldn't have, or look into their interactions with dead players who's alignment is known
@toastboy
- I also play in Japanese, and I guess English is my "mother tongue" cause all of my school was in the USA but I'm fluent in both
- I said shadowlurker vs EL looks like a classic TVT, that doesn't mean I can't be wrong. Outside of that, I think EL looks better
- Yes, votes can be moved as much as I like. But I prefer to move it less because it has more impact. This is a Magic forum, what's more valuable, a common card you have 20 copies of or a Mystic Rare? Basically, my vote is stronger if I vote less frequently because you know I'm serious.
- I am posting more now because there is more to talk about! Honestly the first four pages was just a bunch or arguing about things that didn't really matter. The game is finally starting to pick up
Forgot to answer this: post count and amount of content are two very different things. Anak said more in one post than Zionite said in like 6
@PA Tennis: What stood out to you about rodemy?
Lurker is pretty obv town, but wants the game to move at a much faster pace than it is and appears scummy for that. The bouncing around is an awful look, but the content is very good. Only things that give me even slight pause was his move on Anak. Proclaiming Anak to be pretty scummy before walking it back after nothing changing. And his need to make everything about him. I don't like the way posts frame scumminess on it's relation to him. Eg: His read on Blue, his read on Pa Tennis (which I agree with but not for those reasons), and the way he reacted to Zion popping up after he posted about lurkers. Because I think he's more town than not overall I'm reading it charitably as "I'm super obviously town, and really good at the game, so people are warping their play around me." Now I don't think that is true but I can see someone making that case to themselves and I'd be surprised if he was doing that as scum.
Off topic I think it's going to be hard to be in two games with a bunch of the same people running simultaneously.
Shadow is reasonably town. Minus the weird question towards Kaba.
Toast is super town.
Rod is kind of town. But also Rod.
Latin is pretty good so far.
Very torn on Pa Tennis. Some posts and reactions that give me strong town vibes and some that give me strong scum ones. Generally when I'm getting both that strongly I lean towards scum.
Strongly agree with Toast's case against Kaba right now.
Not sure what to make of JeY. She is the person I'm having the hardest trouble getting a handle on right now.
Back to reading.
So this post. This is one giving me town feelings. Even if I think the implications of the questions are off base.
To answer them (and they've probably been answered in the interim) Rod is like that. He's aggressive, bombastic, and works in absolutes as both alignments. It makes him very hard to read. So yes his poking at KJ is unreasonable, but it's very in character for Rod.
With Shadow pushing for meaning but seeming to have none in his I think there is value in it. Forcing people to justify posts is the key aspect of the game. And if there wasn't meaning in early posts that is fine, but trying to find intent is giving me town vibes from Shadow. He is trying to hold people accountable.
Vote: Kabazame
@Kabaz, have you heard of the theory of TSTBS (too scummy to be scum) and what do you think of it? Do you think you'd apply it to Lurker?
@Lingerer/Spyro, first off, okay for me to call you one of those, cause I'm not about this chain on consonants. Second, how much faith do you put into vote analysis?
@Grapefruit, regarding the question to Kabaz, I feel like something that gets overlooked a lot is how difficult it can be for scum to justify a town read, and how difficult it is to fake being perplexed by someone's alignment, because scum always know. Faking a scum read is easy, there's a reason scum win games, townies can look scummy, and scum can bus.
This is the question I was referring to Shadow for clarity's sake. Is that the one you thought I was referring to?
The original idea that I had going into that was that Lurker/Latin was town on town, and I was trying to show that, but as I read more into Lurker the more I realized there were things in his posts that didn't make sense.
I'm working on a T/S List/Rest of the post in the mix.
Here's the rub with abstaining from voting like that. You could totally be genuine in your reasoning above, in fact I actually believe you. However, it makes you come off as someone who either doesn't want to rock the boat inadvertantly by voting, or doesn't know who they should vote without drawing scrutiny onto themselves. Who is more likely to want to keep their head down, town or scum? Not voting anyone is one of the best ways to avoid the limelight.
Does that make sense? I want you to commit and vote someone in one of your next 2 posts, I really want to see where your heads at.
@Jey I know you think EL is scum, but I can't for the life of me figure out why you think that. Would greatly appreciate a ELI5 on it, it feels a bit contrived.
Oh hey Grapefruits scum. That's neat.
Vote: Grapefruit21
You in your catch up post cursory reads on everyone, then vote the one person you didn't mention, citing hopping on the wagon. Talk about an action that's trying to let you blend in and back out if needed.
Yupo, zero mention of Kaba in my catch up post.
I understand that completely, but there are two counter-points I could make. First of all, not voting is clearly having the exact opposite effect and is actually thrusting me into the limelight, as several people have noticed it and attacked me for it. Secondly, I'm not really concerned if I look scummy this early into the Day. In fact, I'm totally fine with it!
Regardless, I probably wouldn't vote just because you told me too, but Grapefruit was nice enough to just claim scum
Vote: Grapefruit21
You can't just say "I agree with everything toast said" without providing your own thoughts and jump on an easy bandwagon. You're buddying up to Toast calling him "super town" with no reason, same with Rod. Most of your reads are just town or scum with nothing explaining it, except Lurker who everyone has already talked to death about.
Anything original to add?
Nope, but I can guess what it means. Is it like WIFOM (Wine In Front Of Me)? Anyway, I don't think it applies to Lurker because I don't think he's scummy.
Sure, you're now OMGUS'ing me which is a nice tell. And it got Anak to come out of the woodwork and attack me for a weak reason. So there is that too.
But no I can't add much original because most of the ground has already been covered. If you have anything in particular you want me to weigh in on ask away though. And the point of a catch up post is too give reads and state where my head is at. I pulled a few things I thought needed to be discussed but hadn't been and left all the things discussed to death alone.
Ohhh and because this didn't show up when I was typing what does WIFOM (which you seem to understand) have to do with TBSTS? The other part of your answer I follow, but I don't get the comparison.
and no one else has said Toast is "super town" so that ground has definitely not been covered. Why do you think Rodemy is town? You didn't provide any reasoning for your reads. It's like you just want to look like you're playing but aren't really
Add that to shameless bandwagoning and extreme buddying (pocketing?) with Toast and you've got a recipe for scum. This is like straight out of the "how to find scum 101" textbook
Rod is town for a few things, first his unprompted post 1 flavor claim. Second his tenacity and bounciness. He does this as both alignments (see bare bones) but this feels more like Rod from Mistborn. His no way out question that Pa Tennis was talking about stands out to me.
I'll get to my read on toast, but first was it an easy bandwagon to join? Or was toast someone who isn't being widely town read? I'm confused?
As for where the town read comes from: 145 is about as townie of a wall as they come. His nuanced take of EL's play being a symptom of irl mafia is smart and on point after thinking about it. And I love his confidence to walk back his read on my slot. He entered town reading Blue, but backed it off. Which makes sense to me. As town giant walls full of questions are the easiest thing to mistakenly town read and Toast walked it back without taking any pressure over that read.
VoteCount 1.2
EternalLurker - 2 (JeY k, EternalLurker)
Grapefruit21 - 2 (Anaklusmos, Kabazame)
JeY k - 1 (Zionite)
Kabazame - 2 (Toastboy, Grapefruit21)
Pa Tennis - 1 (Rhand)
Rodemy - 2 (Study Latin, Pa Tennis)
Not Voting - 6 (Killjoy, LnGrrrR, Rodemy, shadowlancerx, Tubba Fett, Vaimes)
Votes made in 193 and 202 were not counted
One more week and I'll be home again
Sticking to my guns for now.
The back and forth on EL isn't the problem, it's more the timing of it. Also, finding "gut feelings" suspicious. Makes me wonder if you have inside information?
Can you explain a little more on Rodemy? You seem to be pretty sure while saying everything but the flavor (lol) is just Rodemy being Rodemy. And I'm not sure how not reading is a personality trait.
Vote from Kabazame was awkward, but it probably always would be when you finally vote after talking about why you didn't vote.
Anaklusmos' posts are really impactful. Seems pretty town for 4 posts.
Think you're misreading this. JeY's not saying Town shouldn't be afraid to mislynch me, as if hedging with her read on me; she's saying that she likes my post, in part because I said that Town shouldn't be afraid of a Day One mislynch.
Annnnnd I've now caught up enough to see that JeY already explained this, but I'm too lazy to delete it. {:^#{{
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@Toastboy:
I was. He was in the top section of my reads list (bottom section of the post). He's maintained his refusal to vote despite multiple requests not to do so, however, which has now raised red flags for me. Voting leaves a trackable pattern (due to the official vote counts), and not voting thus seems like a method of not committing to any reads.
JeY referenced shadow's #104 as a Town-tell in her post right before that one. I had already spent an entire post discussing how logically inconsistent JeY is (to which she amusingly responded by trying to reframe her own previous statements while simultaneously claiming that she always stands by everything she says), so I didn't feel that much need to go into it again.
My Town-read of JeY is evaporating, as I've noted. However, earlier posts always hold more weight than later posts for me, because it's easier for scum to adapt their playstyles to people's wishes as the game goes on. So for now her earlier Townie posts are still more relevant to me than the more recent scummy posts. (It's also common for scum to get more confident about pushing things after they've been widely Town-read, so a Town-to-Mafia posting style progression can still mean a person is scummy, but JeY wasn't being widely Town-read at the time of her descent so I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt.)
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@Mod:
I'm, uh, definitely not voting myself. Pretty sure I was voting BluesEclipse. Did you somehow alias "BluesEclipse" to me instead of to Grapefruit?
I'll update to the replacement so you don't need to alias it at all (since I'm pretty sure I was the only one voting BluesEclipse). Vote: Grapefruit21
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Re: Grapefruit
Man, I hate seeing someone replace in and go "Oh hey I'm replacing in for obv-Town that's so great", especially when Blues was...not obv-Town. It's such a gross way to try to steal an undeserved Town-read.
Calling KZ's vote an OMGUS scum-tell is just straight-up misleading. Toastboy's been on KZ for a while and KZ's never shown any indication of wanting to vote in retaliation. He's voting GF now because he believes in the vote.
I like most of the content of GF's reads-list, though, especially the way that he seems legitimately undecided on Tennis' alignment. (As long as he explains his Toast read in more depth, cuz I'm not seeing Toast as "super town".) Overall, enough Town points and enough Mafia points that I'm pretty much exactly where I was on Blues pre-replacement (maybe sliiiightly more Town-leaning than before), so my vote stands for now.
I will note that if either Toastboy or GF flips scum I'll probably lynch the other on the next Day. GF saying that he'll jump on the "KZ bandwagon" when Toastboy was literally the only other KZ vote is a fairly strong hint that the two are aligned: people tend to give their allies' votes a little more subconscious weight, thinking there's more pressure against a person that an ally's voting than there might actually be.
Vote kabazame
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
How do you know that? For someone who has been very cautious of reading people's motives that is a big jump. As for why I think it's OMGUS the defensiveness stands out to me. Swinging back and forth from calling it and easy wagon to jump on (1 Vote) to saying that Toast isn't widely town read doesn't line up. Feels forced.
Plus the new guy who posted a lazy catch up wall is a much easier target than the guy who posted a thorough catch up wall. Especially when the new guy replaces into a slot that some were already scum reading.
Fair enough. I'll post more when I have more. But for now my earlier explanation for toast stands. His read on you and his progression on Blue were very townie.
I foresaw this being a problem, and me trying to draw an earlier response out of KJ was in-part trying to avoid this.
Much like yourself, I have no clear perception on whether it's coming from scum or town. However, do you think the reasoning itself feels like KJ is approaching Me vs. Lurker from the mindset of town?
Could you possibly give an example of what made them 'stand out' in their ISOs?
Or at least, please explain why their posting style caused this to occur.
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What made you come to this conclusion?
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I personally do not see this being valid. I think Jey's reasoning/evidence in unsubstantial.
You also ignored the questions I brought up about your analysis of Toast's vote in post 198 and I would very-much like you to respond to it.
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But you're thinking his recent posts are better, and thus more likely to come from town?
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@EternalLurker, what's your take on this readslist? How does it compare to your own mental-readslist atm?
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I have many questions on this, similar to Rhand's readlist, but I'm uncertain where to start.
Could you possibly do a recap on every individual under EL?
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How do you read Rod's push on Jey?
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Could you possibly go a bit more in-depth on why you agree with the reasons people are voting them?
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I'm curious as to why you didn't respond to me or my vote when I addressed you about those reads, and instead postponed said explanation.
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I know I asked this previously, but could you still go into detail on why you think EL vs Lurker is TvT?
Why not ask Grape to explain his reads before jumping to conclusions?
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Why is him voteing you indicative of his alignment? Could you go over why you state this? *nvm after reading 252.
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Debateable. Could you go in-depth as to why you think this?
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May I ask again now?
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I don't see this happening nor do I understand this narrative of scum!Kabazame omgus voting you.
@Shadow, what do you think of GF's entrance to the game? What do you think about him finding Kabazame scummy for his push?
Not going to do a recap for everyone. Most of it is regurgitating other peoples points.
Rods push on Jey feels genuine. But that is Rods strength as both alignments. I have no problem with it but I also don't find it persuasive.
With Kabazame the way they have focused on things that are not remotely alignment indicative. Your word choice, defending their lack of voting, and now pushing me as a knee jerk reaction.
Not yet on Zionite. Ask again laterer.
A question for you; do you think OMGUS is a tell at all? Not in this case but in general? And why do you take issue (question) Anak for their vote on me, but not Kaba when they were very similar in tone and text?