Hey Vaimes, I did do it myself, just not in the thread yet, I wanted other people's thoughts first.
Also LoL is awesome.
Seriously I'm gonna try and knock out a T/S list on my bus ride home today. I am sorry for dropping off the past few days, it couldn't be helped and I'm not at 100% yet.
3: This is a counterpoint to Colin's claim. How am I so blatantly scummy to Osie, but deceptively scummy to Colin? Actually, I don't think Osie has said why I'm scummy at all? I briefly skimmed her ISO, and short of calling me scum with the weakest of reasons in #129 and mentioning my actions as NAI in #190, Osie hasn't really made much of a case for having me as one of her top scum reads.
Try a little harder...
Your "Weakest of reasons" is referring to this ISO of you, I'm guessing:
TF's posts pre-118 amount to: 47 RVS, 95 Useless, 99 Using a lot of Words to say nothing, 104 Literally just "Hmmmmm…", 106 Joke, 107 I was actually contributing!
Although, to be fair, I didn't really talk much about you at all before jumping whole hog into Jenna's posts.
But sure, I'm down for going over your posts in further detail.
#47: You start out with an RVS vote of A Bear. This is NAI; noone was voting Bear at that point, and you didn't say anything of note in the post.
#95: You say that something everyone knows is likely is a given, without putting effort into thinking about who the scum might be.
#99: "Osie is possibly scum, Vaimes and Voxx are probably not scum together, Jenna is difficult to read." This post actually tells us very little, while acting like you're thinking about the game.
#104: As I said in #129, this post is literally just "Hmmmmm…" in response to DoTA. Of note as well is that Jenna's response in #105 looks like an attempt at distancing, which lends credence to a Jenna/Tubba scumteam.
#106: This post is just a joke. Jokes are fine and dandy, even good sometimes, but in terms of judging your posts, they add to your post count without inherently netting you anything alignment-wise.
#107: Defending #104 as something to come back to for a DoTA scumtell. If you think DoTA is scummy, given that it's no longer RVS, you should vote DoTA.
#124: Did you look up my old games before making this post? (Just kidding…) What exactly made you think I was flailing? Of note, in #127, Jenna now flips her tune and is now in sync with you on one of me or DoTA being scum.
#130: Here you state "Dot and Osie are scumspicious" and then just list what happened in the game with no input on it. There's two questions here for Jenna, which she says in #132 that she already answered and you said in #140 that you saw that. Where did she answer which of the questions? Do you have any follow-up thoughts based on her answers?
#131: You then imply that you think BOTH me and DoTA are scum, and continue with summary.
#136: Here you overreact to my post, then question me on the wagon with the pretense that I don't believe there's anyone on it. Of note, this pretense is repeated by Jenna in #154. The self-victimization looks bad either from a social contract perspective or from an alignment perspective. Please don't do that. The question itself is a reasonable one outside of the pretense.
#140: NAI response to Jenna, though why you don't push more here is a question. You also defend your strangely late vote of me in #124. There's no mention of the reasoning you used in #124. There's the comment that you voted me only because I left the wagon during discussion of it. Also, that's your big concern? What?
#150: "There hadn't been a whole lot of serious content" But there had been some, which you ignored, in particular, your own comment on DoTA in #107. Also, if you're playing as town and you feel someone is the scummiest slot, you vote them. You don't wait… Doing that remotely often is a recipe for a mislynch. You also poke Tau with the same question you had towards me, which in this context looks like you're attempting to either A) Redirect attention from yourself, B) Look like you're contributing while not having to think of new content, or C) Both.
#153: Self-victimization, again. And a bit of a strawman towards Tau… I'm okay with parts of this post though, and I will stop talking about Carl (it was just a joke… :panda:)
#160: I call this sort of post an "I'm town!" post, because it's not saying anything else. In context with multiple other scumtells, this makes you look worse.
#194: Here you stay on the point that you've been on for a while now. Just based on this post, given context, you're either tunneled really hard, or you're scum.
#198/199: First off, "Protecting his buddy?" What do you mean? Oh, you're trying to suggest that RT and I are buddies… HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. No. Point 2 is bad. You start out with what reads as a strawman argument about interaction with your scumreads being necessary, then move into a seemingly intentional misinterpretation of what Tau said. Point 3 is funny. So two different people can't call things out in different manners? Also, you very much ignored part of Colin's point: "This is especially clear in the poor response to RT and osie throwing some pressure on him." As for Point 4… No, you definitely haven't.
Switching the gimmick didn't seem natural to me. Why do it? If you're not happy with the first gimmick then drop it and play. It's not helpful to bounce around attempting to be funny.
Less Scum
Reverb
Osie (Flailing not factored into this read, can confirm, Osie seems flaily in every gamed I've played with him)
Colin
Scum
Jenna
@Colin: is the order within each tier of your T/S list relevant or is it arbitrary? I find your list feels somewhat inconsistent with your actual descriptions of each individual. Did you have the list before writing the descriptions or create it after writing down thoughts?
@Reverb: can you explain what you meant by this: "shadow -
shadow is clearly capable of faking his points if he is scum. ..... but I think if shadow he may have asked his partner(s) to do some distancing early. shadow was never in any actual danger of dying."
It feels like you know who I am.
Jenna: I find you difficult to discern, and I think that's intentional, and I don't trust you. Is playing a character with this depth a common thing for you, or is this something you've decided to add to your repertoire?
Fun is NAI, sure, but I think for a new-ish player, roleplayig + seeming at ease while doing so is more likely to come from town. Plus, I think her posting style is naturally going to draw some negative attention and I don't think she thinks she could reasonably get away with it as scum.
She's been evasive and dodgy in response to questions. A list of badly answered or unanswered questions from me. Tau noted her question dodging as well in #149, although he backed down on it a bit. Colin also mentioned it in #158.
Vaimes;
Now this is an opening that I don't like. The interaction with Voxx comes across as someone trying too hard to blend in. The short posts of no actual value in quick succession is creating the illusion of content. The interaction with shadow is one that doesn't leave a good taste in my mouth either, shadow's looking for a more in depth answer to his question and isn't too happy with what he's given on the first two attempts. His post reads that he is begrudgingly accepting that he's getting nothing more, and then Vaimes elaborates. I feel that going out of the way to appease shadow after twice before not bothering is scummy. It's like Vaimes suddenly realised that there might be some sort of consequence for this exchange. This was followed up by an attempt to poke back which was limp at best. I'll point out again, that I have flipped my opinion on the opening since my initial post about it.
I'm partially going to trust Bear's read for now. I don't usually do this, but there are other people I'm town-reading that seem to be rading Vaimes town too.
Ignoring Bear/other townread's townread of Vaimes, is he scum? Everything before the last sentence seems like you're suspicious of him then you default to town because other people. Explain please.
Tubba Fett:
I don't like the asking about the expected number of mafia. It feels like a question a mafia would ask in an attempt at getting some town credit.
Going on from that, Tubba's posts are pretty much a guide to how not to post as mafia. This is especially clear in the poor response to RT and osie throwing some pressure on him.
This seems... flimsy. Asking how many mafia isn't very substancial. Expand on which of Tubbas posts are "a guide how not to play as mafia"?
To summarise;
Townsfolk; Colin, Reaverb Tau, A Bear
Living in the outskirts; Vaimes, osieorb, Voxxicus, Killjoy
Just visiting; shadowlancerx, King Torg
Banished; Jenna Tolaria, DoTArchon, Tubba Fett
I'm also slightly confused here. Like, Reaverb, you say you still have issues with his opening, and other than that he's town... but he's in your Town section. Shadow reads like you're fully townreading him, but he's in your "Just visiting" seciton (which I interpret as "barely leaning town"). Vaimes I've addressed, but what doesn't make sense is he's higher on the list than people like shadow (who it looks like you're townreading hard). Osie is also higher than shadow, after all you've said about him.
1. I feel like I'm struggling to get a read on Vaimes, and I'm not sure where to go with it. Therefore I'm more inclined to sheep a little bit. Maybe Vaimes should be one tier down, but those tiers are pretty close together anyway, so it's not a huge deal. I put him in the Outskirts as I am unlikely to be willing to vote for him today.
2. I'd like to do this at a later date as I don't feel I can commit the brain power and time to do so now, and a sloppy job would be counter-productive.
3. Everything apart from Reaverb's opening felt so townie to me that I'm willing to shelf how I feel about it. That's what I mean by saying "I'm not going to push it further at this point."
I'm not townreading shadow hard. I think I have done him a disservice in the groupings though. I think I didn't put as much thought into the middle two groups as I could have.
The grouping thing is more of a quick summary anyway and wont provide a full picture alone. The content of my reads is more important. It is where I started, so a few of my feelings may have changed while I was typing them up. My strongest ones did not shift at all though.
@Colin: is the order within each tier of your T/S list relevant or is it arbitrary? I find your list feels somewhat inconsistent with your actual descriptions of each individual. Did you have the list before writing the descriptions or create it after writing down thoughts?
I just touched on this above, but I'll expand. I wrote the groupings first and then typed out my thoughts, I can't remember if I did any sort of re-grouping after writing everything though. The order of the names in each group is not relevant. I should have alphabetised it really.
Killjoy:
Flattery will get you everywhere. Seriously though, it was a good entrance showing the thought process as he reads though the thread.
Could you summarize the thought process you see in #142?
I felt the post presented someone who was going through the thread and noting anything of interest that they had a comment on. It felt natural as Killjoy seemed to not be concerned about how long ago the post was made and if it was still relevant in the current time. If he had something to say, it didn't matter that the moment had passed he wanted to say it. For me, it showed that he wanted to be involved in the game and give content on what had happened so far without it. It presents a lot of opportunities for the other players to interact with him, which would have otherwise been missed due to him not being present in the game before that. Also, he's asking questions of other players and actively seeking out those interactions.
Vaimes, the problem is that the only reason that those metas were like that is because Sotek forced everyone to act in a way that was +ev to him specifically for collecting data as long as he was the only one using The Machine. Everyone was enamoured with it, so they went along with it for years and years and years. Sotek didn’t really practice what he preached as far as voting went, either, btw. You can look that up. The only reasons why he voted outside of consolidation were to try to influence wagons in a way that gave him even more data. I know I’m town, and I don’t need to analyze my own votes to be able to read my own role PM… is basically the thing. Also, I’m trying a new strat. I don’t think it’s going to work in this game because it’s been dead air in here most of the time... Voxx says it works for him on this forum, though? The “sit back and watch other players do things without your influence in order to generate something as close to (wide text) spectator chat reads as possible”? I think that’s my wording and not his at the end there but I feel like with my IRL situation it’s the strat that makes the most sense for me rn. Even if I had time, regular Beruposting would drown the thread, so...
As far as analyzing things from a votes perspective in this game, it’s mostly been trash so far. I’ve moved on to charting people’s town/scumreads because that seems more helpful to me than the scattered votes I’m seeing? I need more pen colours and a bigger sheet of paper, but mostly I’m just keeping track of hard town/scumreads right now. I’m still surprised that literally nobody is townreading Archon, but it turns out that Osie isn’t actually being townread by anyone either? Shadow has been getting some minor townreads, mostly for being the wagon target, I think, but… I think it would be useful if people ranked Osie/Archon/Shadow and gave reasons, tbh. Like, people are making read walls, so I can see where they’re at, but if you don’t give actual reasons for why people are where they are, you can just bull***** a list of names.
Things I actually got out of the machine…
Osie’s vote movements indicate that he’s most likely town, but he put himself in a position where, if he’s mafia, he has to be super ultra town in order to not just ******* Die from early misplays. He also has the worst positions/reasoning on the Shadow wagon. Besides that, though, his content is way better than Archon, in that it actually exists, he has more than one scumread (or read period tbh), and he’s actually engaging people. I feel like if the Shadow wagon hadn’t happened, this guy wouldn’t be getting as many scumreads as he actually is.
Also beginning to wonder if Archon’s team is just leaving him for dead, tbh? Literally nobody is willing to defend him or get him to explain anything, but hardly anyone is actually voting for him. After he got scumread by basically everyone, he disappeared, too. Maybe they’re just hoping we’ll consolidate on someone else? Going into antispew a week before deadline is just giving up...
I really, really, really just want Archon and Osie to thunderdome, tbh. It would help a lot.
Vote: DoTArchon
I don’t think Tubba and Osie are w/w. I don’t think anyone would try to bury a partner that hard. Same goes for Osie/Jenna. It’s possible that Osie is extremely comfortable because he knows that neither of them is getting lynched off of his pushes and is doing some distancing so that if he ends up as today’s lynch, one/both of them look a lot better? Jenna is also voting Archon and has dug in her heels about it for a long time, even though she scumreads both Archon and Osie. Tubba is voting Osie, and also did this, like, weird OMGUS post about Reaver/Osie/Colin? so if someone is more likely to be scum with Osie, it’s prooobably Jenna.
Feeling something like Tubba/Archon +1 or Osie/Jenna/ +1 isn’t out of the realm of possibility. Tubba probably isn’t with Reaver or Colin either? The reaction to the scumreads is… I mean, if Tubba's scared that his partner(s) are going to bus him D1 for no reason and is flipping the **** out about getting, like, two votes? maybe? We have time to resolve this, tho.
I can pull up votals from any point in the game, btw, so if you want the state of the votal at the time someone voted, you can just @ me and I'll dump it.
Fun Beru Facts: just realized that this is the first game I’ve actually played with Voxx in at least three years, maybe four? That’s weird.
It’s possible that Osie is extremely comfortable because he knows that neither of them is getting lynched off of his pushes and is doing some distancing so that if he ends up as today’s lynch, one/both of them look a lot better? Jenna is also voting Archon and has dug in her heels about it for a long time, even though she scumreads both Archon and Osie. Tubba is voting Osie, and also did this, like, weird OMGUS post about Reaver/Osie/Colin? so if someone is more likely to be scum with Osie, it’s prooobably Jenna.
@Killjoy I've played a couple dozen games I think? I've never actually counted.
Why do you think that one post is enough to read Vox? Is it some sort of meta read?
What was your criteria for picking the particular posts you did to respond to on your catch-up?
Re: Voxx: It's... kind of a meta read, I guess? I mean it's not so much something I have personally observed and found for myself through experience, but more through repuation. What I know about Voxx is: he HATES being mafia, because there's no puzzle to solve. Nothing he likes to do can happen when he's mafia. It's just so boring.
It was actually two posts that put me at that conclusion. The initial vote on Shadow (Wagons!) was one, combined with the quoted post led me to see a mindset where A)he is having fun and B)is trying to solve the puzzle only available as town.
Re: criteria: My process is basically read the thread, then when I have a question or relevent thought I quote and post. Some long posts I skim becuase those just become quotewalls (which I don't usually wanna deal with right then) so I don't usually do anything with them.
The idea of you participating in RVS at all is weird if you really love waiting to vote as much as you claim.
I think DotA is the most likely scum on the wagon right now.
Hm. Explain your thinking here.
Your Voxx conclusions are totally off. Your premises aren't wrong, but despite claiming to strongly dislike scum he's historically been very good at it. A couple years back I recall him claiming to never had been lynched as scum without a mechanical guilty across dozens of scum games.
Tubba has state they like waiting to vote as Town, which implies they do not agree with the normal evaluation Town should change their vote quite often, and having a vote down is always correct. However, he still participates in RVS, which is just this evaluation pushed to extreme due to extreme lack of info at the beginning of the game. This is inconsistent.
@A Bear Torg was/is in the "needs to post more nulls"
@Osie
My Bear vote was just an RVS vote. I can't respond to ghost panda's infiltrating my kitchen, because I'm just not sure what you're asking/telling me. I'm pretty sure you're just flailing at this point. Vote:Osie
Basically: He has an RVS vote, notes something scummy on DotArchon, then votes what's basically another RVS vote instead of moving to DotArchon.
Particularly since "flailing" doesn't accurately describe Osie, they have several clear opinions once you read though there bizarre post restrictions.
This doesn't effect my read on DotArchon because it could be either setting up for a potential bus or trying to push a mislynch without getting on.
I missed this post between the 1st and 2nd TubbaFett post I quoted here:
Osie's quick on and off is possibly indicative of scum behaviour but that's not really a lot to go on. If Vaimes and Vox are scum together it seems ballsy to act so aligned. Jenna is very difficult to read because I flunked quantum interstitial physics.
It's weird he didn't vote Osie in ^ post but less weird than voting Osie just for "flailing" when they had done the exact same scumtell as DoTA.
(This is also my response to @Osie's question about what I cared about in TubbaFett's progression on them, which triggered me noticing this)
@Reverb: can you explain what you meant by this: "shadow -
shadow is clearly capable of faking his points if he is scum. ..... but I think if shadow he may have asked his partner(s) to do some distancing early. shadow was never in any actual danger of dying."
It feels like you know who I am.
I skimmed a couple of the older games here (including Silence of the Lambs, where you won as scum) and multiple players have said you're good at scum in-tread. It's enough to figure out I shouldn't trust "weak" towntells that decent scum can easily fake.
Could you summarize the thought process you see in #142?
I felt the post presented someone who was going through the thread and noting anything of interest that they had a comment on. It felt natural as Killjoy seemed to not be concerned about how long ago the post was made and if it was still relevant in the current time. If he had something to say, it didn't matter that the moment had passed he wanted to say it. For me, it showed that he wanted to be involved in the game and give content on what had happened so far without it. It presents a lot of opportunities for the other players to interact with him, which would have otherwise been missed due to him not being present in the game before that. Also, he's asking questions of other players and actively seeking out those interactions.
This is terrible.
First sentence is "I feel like Killjoy is reading the thread, and therefore and Townreading him" ???
Second/Third sentences are....I don't know where or how much forum mafia you've played in the past but necroquoting (neologism by me, pretty clear analogy to necroposting) is something I've seen from scum more often than Town. For the exact reasons you mentioned, it helps players look Town while being significantly less +EV Town than most other types of content. Also, a good amount of the content in #142 was the equivalent of Killjoy responding to a post with "lol".
Fourth sentence "presents a lot of opportunities for the other players to interact with him": That would be a lot better accomplished with a reads-post, and having everybody start arguing about necroquotes tends to degrade Town conversation more than it actually helps.
Final sentence is fine, although asking questions as scum isn't rocket science.
I think Colin's post there is scummy in isolation, regardless of Killjoy's alignment, but I think it's even more scummy if Killjoy is scum and less-scummy-but-still-bad if Killjoy is Town?
Besides the necroquoting Killjoy has done little besides ask/respond to questions and give a wrong-meta read on Voxx.
AB, is it your belief that I have no desire to vote OO? If so, please describe its origin.
Relatedly, this seems to be the point where future JT answered the twelve.
For the sake of sanity, (yes, this is where it happens), no quoting method is employed. Your understanding of this matter is appreciated.
1 = First paragraph of 81
2 = I must have been mistaken in my thoughts.
3 = I cannot recall. Perhaps I did not mean V. Though for that to be the case I would have to assign it elsewhere, and I do not think I could. It may still be from a future moment.
4 = Third paragraph of 81.
5 = 85.
6 = Why should it be significant?
7 = 122, 123.
Dear SL: 203 is answered with 123. It is simply what the game evokes. If it were not to be, it wouldn't have happened. And, it makes me feel happy. Apologies for the interruption, I will let future JT continue.
Thank you.
8 = Second paragraph of 81.
9 = 211, answer 3.
10 = Clearly V is royalty. Though I suspect you wish past JT to answer that one. I'm not sure if she did.
11 = I shall not be discussing this.
12 = Pointless conjecture.
But there are bonuses.
OD1: This is the source of my intense distrust of OO.
OD2: There is no OD2. Why necessitate a separate section with plurality when it contains only one item?
Could you summarize the thought process you see in #142?
I felt the post presented someone who was going through the thread and noting anything of interest that they had a comment on. It felt natural as Killjoy seemed to not be concerned about how long ago the post was made and if it was still relevant in the current time. If he had something to say, it didn't matter that the moment had passed he wanted to say it. For me, it showed that he wanted to be involved in the game and give content on what had happened so far without it. It presents a lot of opportunities for the other players to interact with him, which would have otherwise been missed due to him not being present in the game before that. Also, he's asking questions of other players and actively seeking out those interactions.
This is terrible.
First sentence is "I feel like Killjoy is reading the thread, and therefore and Townreading him" ???
Second/Third sentences are....I don't know where or how much forum mafia you've played in the past but necroquoting (neologism by me, pretty clear analogy to necroposting) is something I've seen from scum more often than Town. For the exact reasons you mentioned, it helps players look Town while being significantly less +EV Town than most other types of content. Also, a good amount of the content in #142 was the equivalent of Killjoy responding to a post with "lol".
Fourth sentence "presents a lot of opportunities for the other players to interact with him": That would be a lot better accomplished with a reads-post, and having everybody start arguing about necroquotes tends to degrade Town conversation more than it actually helps.
Final sentence is fine, although asking questions as scum isn't rocket science.
In my experience a "reads-post" would be more indicative of scum. It gives more room for maneuverability and it's lazier. The post felt really good to me. When I read it I felt comfortable, like it's a natural post rather than a constructed one. As I've said earlier I'm an emotional player, so that's going to skew things which can be read multiple ways at times. Either way, I think the post is a good measuring stick showing Killjoy's thought process which can be used to compare future posts and interactions.
1. That is somewhat evasive, though, was my point. Why obfuscate the answer with the whole perhaps game?
2. Fair.
3. Okay.
4. This is less obfuscated, but the way it reads suggests that you're sure of your read despite a lack of evidence. Why so certain?
5. This answer is incredibly evasive, and effectively meaningless. It's very cagey, as I mentioned. I don't understand why you feel the need to dodge the question, and it looks really suspicious.
6. Wait, so you're now turning around and saying that the Shadow wagon might not be significant. What the heck even is this?
7. Nothing to add, just the posts I quoted… :face_with_rolling_eyes:
8. Fair.
9. You mean this post, I'm guessing, since Tau's #211 doesn't talk about Vaimes. That's reasonable.
10. Funny.
11. Okay. I mean, you've somewhat answered it in a manner of speaking anyways.
12. True, that.
OD: You distrust me because I was poking fun at your posting style? Or is it because of the suggestion that you're either: Daring (audacious) scum, Incautious (feckless) town, or naive scum/town? That statement was just after the seed of suspicion was first planted towards you for me.
But thanks for putting something forward as answers to most of the questions. I'm marginally less suspicious of you.
Still suspicious of Tubba, and you are not out of my scumspects yet (Edit before Posting: Getting there, though, and out of bottom three), but Unvote for now.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
In reading this and some of your other posts, though, I want to ISO DoTA. So I will…
His RVS vote felt like, well, just an RVS vote. I somewhat liked his response in #11 to Reaverb's explanation. His rhyming #44 was silly, but I think it's NAI. If there is anything there, it's WIFOM meta garbage, and that's more Shadow's territory to analyze than mine. #45 is an okay question… #52 is exactly what I was thinking at the time, though albeit it isn't exactly saying much. #57 I like for similar reasons to #11. His pivot from Shadow to me in #102 is definitely questionable. #121 is defensive, then going after an inactive, then saying very little… fearmongering… Damn. I'm down with his questions towards me here, though. #145 is defensive semantics and ALOE… Though his last bit is solid. Hmm. And no posts for two pages.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm tinfoiling super hard right now… I just looked at most players individually and some interactions, and I have a thought about the game as a whole which leaves me very worried.
Vote: DoTArchon
Of relevance to that wagon and my tinfoil -
FoS: A Bear
Whether DoTA is town or scum, that FoS remains, and I still don't care for Tubba. If those three are the scumteam, cool. I'm reasonably confident at this point in my thought that at least two of them are.
Going to say something, and only going to say it once.
It probably has no bearing on my alignment, and should not be read as such.
Mafia is a team game. Regardless of which alignment you are, that is a true statement. There are multiple players in this game who are acting in a manner that indicates their primary focus and motivation is their own amusement, rather than working as part of that team towards the win condition in an optimal manner.
For the sake of this post, let's just assume I'm a villager - though I have made posts like this as a wolf in the past. I should not have to sort multiple layers deep to discern motivations in mafia. I should not have to read a post, decide you are being deliberately unhelpful, deliberately vague, deliberately misleading, deliberately irritating, and then try to decide if you are the type of person that is selfish enough to do that as town, on top of that. There have been multiple posts this game, from multiple people, that have actively made me close the thread and not want to post or play.
I guess I'm just asking that people take a look in the mirror, and decide if a small boost to their own personal enjoyment at their own cleverness is worth making the game a less enjoyable and more difficult experience for the people they are playing with. If the answer to that is "it is", then I have nothing else to say.
I don't care that much about the actions people take, or the exact words they say - I care about how they think, and how they get to point in terms of thought progression, and making that difficult to evaluate is anti-town. I just... don't want to have to decide if it's anti-town because of the alignment of the player in question, or because the person is town acting in such a manner.
I've had this argument with Tomsloger several times over, and I'm just...really tired of having it. Be yourself, be true, be pure, but play the damn game in a way that doesn't make the people you're playing it with not want to play it. This game is inactive and dead, and it doesn't really read like many people are having fun.
Let's try to fix that, yes?
I care about community health, I care about game health, I care about game enjoyment. I do so as both alignments. I basically yanked the entire game into higher activity in Mistborn because the host deserved a more active, and better game than he was getting. I was a wolf there. I may or may not be one here, this is pretty much an entirely OOG post that I'm making because it's still day one, and I want to enjoy this game more than I have been.
The biggest problem I have with a Dota wagon is that lynching him always feels like pulling the lever on a slot machine and hoping for the best.
I'm not actually sure if I've played many games with him, but I've followed along with several where he's been lynched early and I shrugged like 'Could be a wolf I guess?'
Sometimes he's even a wolf, but there's been a lot of mislynches too.
I have literally zero reason to think he's town, possibly beyond the fact that no one is defending him - but I'm not sure it's even possible for his buddies to actually defend him beyond chainsawing him by pushing something /else/.
It's a lynch I'd really like to deny the wolves if he's a villager, but need him to actually post, because right now I think I kind of shrug accept the lynch.
Honestly surprised more people think that Archon is scum over Osie? I’m pretty sure that not a single person in this thread has given anything besides a scumread on Archon, actually. That feels really weird? Usually, people who get scumread by literally everyone aren't actually mafia. It's not universal, though. The only people Archon has actually expressed opinions on are Osie and Shadow, and those were both negative. Plus, besides Osie's interactions with Shadow, he feels better to me than Archon does. I kinda feel like I'm falling for some sort of trap, not sure whether or not the Osie townfeels are because I'm just hoping the people who have time to post are all town at this point. On the other other hand, for all the suspicion, Archon hasnt actually gotten that many votes... the only people who actually voted him so far are Jenna, Reaverb, and Torg. I'm going to have to reread the thread on my lappy to figure out this one, but it's 4 AM and I have a test tomorrow so, like, not now.
This is confusing. The first sentence is that Osie is more scum than DoTA, then in the middle of the paragraph you start saying that Osie is better than Archon because interactions? What is your argument here?
It is interesting that there are so many scumreads on Dota, but are there really no townreads? I'm null on him atm.
Yeah, I guess so. Hm. I'll keep that in mind.
Also, I do not remmeber you in Gotham Underground. I mostly remember the mason chat... that's about it.
Ok. So you don't think she's town at all? All these points are very negative.
Yeah, the evasiveness and pretending to have answered questions suggest that she has something to hide. I'm thinking a scum alignment.
...shes not hiding it though. She's been very obviously avoiding questions. Like, she isn't brushing anyone off. She's just... not doing it.
That said, she's also not actively scumhunting. And I'm not sure I know how she arrived at the reads in 197.
@Whoever asked me for my read on Osi and Voxx Osi's 1st few posts seemed pretty scummy to me, but appears to be getting steadily townier. For lack of stronger reads as of right now, I'd say he's scum. As for Voxx, I've kind of been not paying attention to him at all. I'm going to read through him post by post to get some info and make a read list when I feel a bit better.
Well... here. Read that, and tell me what you think.
I kinda think Jenna is town. Someone asked me why, maybe, and I'll try to get to that later. 90% of it is ~feels~. I get the impression that she's having fun, like it's pretty palpable, but she's not doing it in a deceptive way.
Can you give me more than just fun here? I agree with the people that say fun isn't a tell. (I see you kind of answered this in 204. Can you maybe link a couple of her posts that seem to have town motives and tell me why? Thanks)
I give this dumbtell a 6/10, kinda buy it. For D1, at least.
I'd say its not a tell anymore. It's pretty commonly known by now. It's also easy to fake, as its just a simple question.
1. I feel like I'm struggling to get a read on Vaimes, and I'm not sure where to go with it. Therefore I'm more inclined to sheep a little bit. Maybe Vaimes should be one tier down, but those tiers are pretty close together anyway, so it's not a huge deal. I put him in the Outskirts as I am unlikely to be willing to vote for him today.
2. I'd like to do this at a later date as I don't feel I can commit the brain power and time to do so now, and a sloppy job would be counter-productive.
3. Everything apart from Reaverb's opening felt so townie to me that I'm willing to shelf how I feel about it. That's what I mean by saying "I'm not going to push it further at this point."
I'm not townreading shadow hard. I think I have done him a disservice in the groupings though. I think I didn't put as much thought into the middle two groups as I could have.
The grouping thing is more of a quick summary anyway and wont provide a full picture alone. The content of my reads is more important. It is where I started, so a few of my feelings may have changed while I was typing them up. My strongest ones did not shift at all though.
1. Hm. Ok.
2. I'll hold you to that.
3.I mean... ok I guess. This doesn't feel right. For now I'll shelf it though since we're so close to deadline, and revisit later.
Your Voxx conclusions are totally off. Your premises aren't wrong, but despite claiming to strongly dislike scum he's historically been very good at it. A couple years back I recall him claiming to never had been lynched as scum without a mechanical guilty across dozens of scum games.
Tubba has state they like waiting to vote as Town, which implies they do not agree with the normal evaluation Town should change their vote quite often, and having a vote down is always correct. However, he still participates in RVS, which is just this evaluation pushed to extreme due to extreme lack of info at the beginning of the game. This is inconsistent.
@A Bear Torg was/is in the "needs to post more nulls"
That's not been my experience with him. I'm pretty sure we've got him here as scum at some point.
I'm not saying he isn't a good player as scum, I'm saying his motivations change, and I feel like his motives are obvious enough this game.
Re: Tubba: I disagree here as well. I'm the same way. I participate in RVS as well, but I usually don't vote until I have a strong enough feeling someone is scum.IDK about tubba, but I prefer to get a feel for the game first by asking questions, usually... unless, like i said I have a strong feeling that someone might be scum.
First sentence is "I feel like Killjoy is reading the thread, and therefore and Townreading him" ???
Second/Third sentences are....I don't know where or how much forum mafia you've played in the past but necroquoting (neologism by me, pretty clear analogy to necroposting) is something I've seen from scum more often than Town. For the exact reasons you mentioned, it helps players look Town while being significantly less +EV Town than most other types of content. Also, a good amount of the content in #142 was the equivalent of Killjoy responding to a post with "lol".
Fourth sentence "presents a lot of opportunities for the other players to interact with him": That would be a lot better accomplished with a reads-post, and having everybody start arguing about necroquotes tends to degrade Town conversation more than it actually helps.
Final sentence is fine, although asking questions as scum isn't rocket science.
lolwut?
First sentence: That wasn't his argument. His argument was that i had a clear train of thought.
Second/Third: Why is specifically the way I entered the game scum vs. town? Your arguments of "He could do that as scum" are kinda flimsy, and are easily countered with "he could do that as town though." Why are you so intent on scumreading me for this, and why didn't you bring this up earlier?
Fourth: I could have, but I didn't. This is what I did. Just because I didn't enter the game like you would have doesn't make me scum.
This all seems out of nowhere. I'm not sure where it came from. I was null in 149 and now I'm scum?
I think Colin's post there is scummy in isolation, regardless of Killjoy's alignment, but I think it's even more scummy if Killjoy is scum and less-scummy-but-still-bad if Killjoy is Town?
Besides the necroquoting Killjoy has done little besides ask/respond to questions and give a wrong-meta read on Voxx.
Hm. question here: If Colin is scum regardless of my alignment, why vote me instead of him?
I'm considering voting you for these last two posts, but its so close to deadline I feel like there is a better lynch in Osie today.
I think Colin's post there is scummy in isolation, regardless of Killjoy's alignment, but I think it's even more scummy if Killjoy is scum and less-scummy-but-still-bad if Killjoy is Town?
Besides the necroquoting Killjoy has done little besides ask/respond to questions and give a wrong-meta read on Voxx.
His RVS vote felt like, well, just an RVS vote. I somewhat liked his response in #11 to Reaverb's explanation. His rhyming #44 was silly, but I think it's NAI. If there is anything there, it's WIFOM meta garbage, and that's more Shadow's territory to analyze than mine. #45 is an okay question… #52 is exactly what I was thinking at the time, though albeit it isn't exactly saying much. #57 I like for similar reasons to #11. His pivot from Shadow to me in #102 is definitely questionable. #121 is defensive, then going after an inactive, then saying very little… fearmongering… Damn. I'm down with his questions towards me here, though. #145 is defensive semantics and ALOE… Though his last bit is solid. Hmm. And no posts for two pages.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm tinfoiling super hard right now… I just looked at most players individually and some interactions, and I have a thought about the game as a whole which leaves me very worried.
Vote: DoTArchon
Of relevance to that wagon and my tinfoil -
FoS: A Bear
Whether DoTA is town or scum, that FoS remains, and I still don't care for Tubba. If those three are the scumteam, cool. I'm reasonably confident at this point in my thought that at least two of them are.[/quote]Yeah... this reasoning+tinfoiling isn't enough reasoning to hop on the most prominant wagon 1.5 days from deadline.
Is there more to dota, or no? Also why Bear? Why is Bear more scum than Tubba?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
The biggest problem I have with a Dota wagon is that lynching him always feels like pulling the lever on a slot machine and hoping for the best.
I'm not actually sure if I've played many games with him, but I've followed along with several where he's been lynched early and I shrugged like 'Could be a wolf I guess?'
Sometimes he's even a wolf, but there's been a lot of mislynches too.
I have literally zero reason to think he's town, possibly beyond the fact that no one is defending him - but I'm not sure it's even possible for his buddies to actually defend him beyond chainsawing him by pushing something /else/.
It's a lynch I'd really like to deny the wolves if he's a villager, but need him to actually post, because right now I think I kind of shrug accept the lynch.
This is kinda my feeling overall as well. Like, he hasn't really done town things, and some of the things he's done could be scum, but not definitive. Osie lynch>Everything but DoTA>No lynch. I'll check back after work (about 4.5 hours before deadline) to see where the game is then. If I have time tonight I'll make a post on Osie definitively. Short on time, and eyes are tired of reading so much right now.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I guess I'll chime in on the KJ/Reaverb meta stuff regarding me.
I think KJ is fundamentally correct in his assessment. I play the game to solve, and rolling scum always feels like an absolute chore. I struggle to post, especially d1/d2, and tend to trend towards the no-nonsense - my posts tend to be fine, and I don't get lynched, but I'm not having fun.
I kind of liked him isolating the 'Wagons!' post as an example, because I kind of agree that's one I probably don't make as scum, and I like the fact that he pinpointed it - shows critical thought, that it's probbbbably not just him pulling a town read out of his ass because he knows I'm never going to get lynched as town. Probably. I've kind of been burned by this kind of read before where I'm a little bit of a sucker for people pretending to read me with nuance - see Newcomb on D1 of Stargate.
But Reaverb is also correct that I'm... not a terrible wolf, despite struggling to post as a wolf. I'm usually heavily suspected the whole game, I just...kill the people that I think might actually lynch me, and bus partners into the ground to give myself breathing room.
I've never been lynched without a mechanical reason to lynch me as town or as mafia, though I was lynched once as a third party (Famous Historical Figures).
I've just been pretty fortunate to rand town almost every game on MTGS.
I think my question for Reaverb is like.
Why does KJ possibly being "wrong" about the meta read on me make him scum? Talk about where the read comes from in terms of motivation - you think the premise is correct, even, just that it doesn't make me town this game, right? I guess I'm just not really getting from point A to point B in your logic in the read.
Do you think he's scum /with/ me? Do you think he's scum who is just pulling something out of his ass to justify a town read on someone he knows is town?
Yeah... this reasoning+tinfoiling isn't enough reasoning to hop on the most prominant wagon 1.5 days from deadline.
Is there more to dota, or no? Also why Bear? Why is Bear more scum than Tubba?
What do you mean "Is there more to Dota?" Like, "Do I have further reasoning?" I feel there's not enough content, and the later posts don't look great. Also, he's 1 of 3 in a certain tinfoil world, and the only one for whom I feel that I both learn something from their alignment and that it doesn't immensely hurt us if he does flip town, given his relative lack of activity as of late.
A Bear is me jumping down a rabbit hole at the moment, on an guess in part that a bunch of my earlier reads were overthought. I'm probably being overly paranoid, but something felt off, and I want to figure out what exactly that something is.
The biggest problem I have with a Dota wagon is that lynching him always feels like pulling the lever on a slot machine and hoping for the best.
I'm not actually sure if I've played many games with him, but I've followed along with several where he's been lynched early and I shrugged like 'Could be a wolf I guess?'
Sometimes he's even a wolf, but there's been a lot of mislynches too.
I have literally zero reason to think he's town, possibly beyond the fact that no one is defending him - but I'm not sure it's even possible for his buddies to actually defend him beyond chainsawing him by pushing something /else/.
It's a lynch I'd really like to deny the wolves if he's a villager, but need him to actually post, because right now I think I kind of shrug accept the lynch.
This is kinda my feeling overall as well. Like, he hasn't really done town things, and some of the things he's done could be scum, but not definitive. Osie lynch>Everything but DoTA>No lynch. I'll check back after work (about 4.5 hours before deadline) to see where the game is then. If I have time tonight I'll make a post on Osie definitively. Short on time, and eyes are tired of reading so much right now.
Hrm.
Can you clarify what you mean by Osie lynch > Everything but Dota > No lynch?
Like... you're saying you'd literally lynch everyone else in the game over Dota, but don't want to no lynch? I'm not really tracking, especially given you don't have a town read on him.
I've had this argument with Tomsloger several times over, and I'm just...really tired of having it. Be yourself, be true, be pure, but play the damn game in a way that doesn't make the people you're playing it with not want to play it. This game is inactive and dead, and it doesn't really read like many people are having fun.
Let's try to fix that, yes?
I care about community health, I care about game health, I care about game enjoyment. I do so as both alignments. I basically yanked the entire game into higher activity in Mistborn because the host deserved a more active, and better game than he was getting. I was a wolf there. I may or may not be one here, this is pretty much an entirely OOG post that I'm making because it's still day one, and I want to enjoy this game more than I have been.
You're very right. A related and important point I make now and again is:
Quote from Osieorb18 »
I want to make a general, alignment-neutral comment about short, agitated, emotional posts (henceforth "SAE posts"). SAE posts are almost always bad for the poster. If you are scumread scum, SAE posts confirm that and noone thinking rationally will listen to you. If you are scumread town, SAE posts confirm that and noone thinking rationally will listen to you. If you are townread town, SAE posts often hurt the strategy for your team. If you are townread scum, SAE posts will likely eventually come back to bite you when town gets more information, not to mention that it is much easier to slip up when making such a post. These posts also just in general make for a less enjoyable game. For everyone. I'm not about to say that I'm immune to this. And this is also not saying that nobody should joke around or that everyone should be perfect. But I'd like to appeal to everyone's better side, be they town or scum and request that from now on, unless you're trying to label yourself as scum, please attempt to make calm and rational posts, explaining the logic behind your points to what degree you can without leaking sensitive information. It will likely improve this game for everyone.
If we can't be civil, agreeable, and participatory, what's the point?
KJ, have you read or played any games that Osie is in? Also deadline is over 50 hours away, we still have some time.This isn't really directed at anyone so much as something I've observed; I've been talked about this game probably more than any other one thing, but I feel like I've not actually been engaged or addressed by hardly anyone, and it's kinda surreal. Now I'm not sure what to do with this info, and me saying it without actionable steps seems dumb, but I'm leaving it anyway.
---
Can I get everyone to list their top three lynch candidates? Or separate players into would lynch/won't lynch groups? We aren't knocking on the deadline's door, but we are walking up the lawn.
I would lynch:
Jenna (she's not actually in this game, and I don't feel like figuring out if the obfuscation is malicious or not.)
Reverb
Colin
I'd prefer not to lynch:
Anyone else (including Osie). I have no idea of Osie is actually town, but I have seen him do well when he is and doesn't get murderized.
I won't lynch:
Vaimes
Voxx
They'll both die to NKs. Or be my crazy tinfoil on day 3/4
Part of why I haven't swapped my vote, and why I'm dragging my feet with committing is I don't...really want to lynch people who are actually playing the game.
I still do think there's a decent chance Shadow is scum, but I'm not lynching someone who is actually posting on D1 and that will continue to post that I think I can get a reliable read on.
To a degree that holds true for Osie too, though significantly less so, as I kind of.... am not sure I'm ever going to get to a strong town read on him this game.
The counterpoint is like.
I've read Dota's ISO, and I do not have a town read on him, but I can absolutely see ways he flips town? There's just not a whole lot there in general, and he's not around. He flips wolf, great, but not really sure it moves the needle in any way about other people, because he's not someone you can really defend, and pushes on him have trended towards the shrug rather than the conviction, because there's...no other way to push someone who is barely playing.
If he flips villager like... welp? One mislynch gone when we don't have many mislynches to spare, and it's hard to even /blame/ anyone for voting him, because he wasn't being very villagery.
The game is just so low activity that I'm lacking distinction between would lynch and want to lynch a lot more than I ususally am. I don't feel comfortable with a lynch cluster, it's like my thoughts are slipping over glass voids where players and reads should actually be, because there's just...not that much there to actually read.
You may not have, but it's basically the assumption that in most games, among the bottom posters, at least one is scum. As far as the rule itself goes, seen it not apply, but do you give that idea or a similar one any weight?
Ah. Effectively "Sort by postcount, become mafia expert".
It's not an ironclad thing, I've seen scum teams all be active but... given the context of this game and how little people seem to care in general, yeah I'd say it's relatively safe to say there's probably scum somewhere in bottom half. I just don't think it holds as much weight as it does in a heavily active game because the bar for 'active' is so low that even barely-motivated scum can cross it.
A day one with 2k posts postcount sorting is a lot more accurate than a day one with 250 posts.
Osie, talk to me about your 'tinfoil' theory, flesh it out. Explain why you have it, why you think it makes sense.
Let's see if I can kinda sum this up overall...
A concern that comes up often, at least in my time on this site, is experience. It's easy for someone with less experience to feel lost in a game of mafia. In the Basic, this was played up to an absurd level, a scum strategy which made the game miserable. In general, though, I find that it's not really alignment indicative, but the manner in which it's expressed can be considered a tell. It's very much a tonal element. And so I found myself looking at both Jenna and Tubba and saying "Is their manner of expression necessarily because they are scum, or because they are struggling?" In both cases, I'm not going to rule out the gut instinct that they are scum. In Jenna's case specifically, I'm inclined to believe that she might just be struggling as town due in part to tone of #111 and #197 and exactly what Vaimes expressed in #204. In Tubba's case, #153 and #160 were what did it for me, but I'm less certain. I could certainly see both of those slots being frustrated struggling town.
Meanwhile... Interaction is a crucial element to reading scum. And it's not always an easy one to read. But A Bear's #209 feels A) like it could be a bus, and B) like it could be him trying to communicate with scumbuddies. In DoTA's case, the interaction is at #121, and it kinda feels like there isn't really any feeling involved there, which just seems wrong. Given DoTA's general lack of play in this game, and express comment that
Quote from DoTArchon »
I signed up for this but I don't know why, but I'm stuck here now so I'll have to try.
I feel that either A) He should be lynched, and we'll see where to go from there, or B) He should be replaced, and we can discuss the slot with his replacement, with a starting light scumlean based on DoTA's posting.
My suspect(s) for the other tinfoil slot will likely come up later, but I don't feel like I know enough about them yet to point at things for certain. I'm openly dodging this point for now because I don't want my suspicion to affect how they act. If that gets me lynched, so be it.
I'd be down to lynch A Bear, but I think DoTA is the better lynch right now, and it's too close to the deadline for a replacement to make sense. It also seems that everyone has DoTA as somewhere below a town read.
So I think you're town, and I think it would be helpful if you got there with me. Let's talk about how we get there. Want to real time/have any questions you would like my answers to?
A Bear
Colin
DoTArchon
Jenna Tolaria
Killjoy (r. Empoof)
King Torg
Osieorb18
Reaverb Tau
TubbaFett
Vaimes
Voxxicus
shadowlancerx
I'm town.
Vaimes is probably town, though I wish he'd... perk up some.
Voxxicus
Vaimes
A Bear
Colin
DoTArchon
Jenna Tolaria
Killjoy (r. Empoof)
King Torg
Osieorb18
Reaverb Tau
TubbaFett
shadowlancerx
Killjoy and Colin both had state of the game type posts that I liked, and do not want to lynch them today. I'd like to see more thinking from them, but it was enough depth/nuance that I don't want them dead yet.
Voxxicus
Vaimes
Colin
Killjoy (r. Empoof)
A Bear
DoTArchon
Jenna Tolaria
King Torg
Osieorb18
Reaverb Tau
TubbaFett
shadowlancerx
I don't really want to lynch Shadowlancer today. I might not ever lynch him, but I want to examine this read further d2 if alive.
Voxxicus
Vaimes
Colin
Killjoy (r. Empoof)
Shadowlancerx
A Bear
DoTArchon
Jenna Tolaria
King Torg
Osieorb18
Reaverb Tau
TubbaFett
I don't think I'd care all that much if any of the bottom 7 names were lynched.
Osie is possibly slightly more active than I'd prefer to lynch, but there's been a lot of things he's posted that have pinged me as possibly coming from scum.
King Torg is a pretty dead/null slot. Maybe slightly more likely to be scum than rand when comparing his ISO's in this game to his other game (where he was a villager).
I've talked about Dota - he's just a pretty purely Not A Villager read, but he's not someone I strongly scum read either.
I don't think I want to lynch Tubba. He's kind of a blank spot in my mind that I want to sort out a bit, and don't think there's enough time in the day for me to be comfortable doing that and lynching him, when a majority is required, and the game is kind of dead.
Jenna is...complicated. My gut instinct is that she's... slightly self-centered town, that there's just such a lack of awareness of perception that I struggle to see coming from scum. It just...stops short of being an actual town read. Probbbbbably don't want to lynch today, but would greatly appreciate if she'd just...drop the gimmick and post straight and true.
Reaverb and Beruru are two people I'm kind of clumping together in my mind for possibly bad reasons. They both feel...wooden. Like they could be posting more, like they could be caring more, like they could be solving more, but aren't. The feeling I get from both of them is 'posting to post'. There's no drive there, no passion, no energy. I'm acknowledging part of that can be that this is a new environment from them and they're adjusting to the glacial phase lengths and the fact that it's been a kind of dead game in general, but they just aren't feeling like villagers who are reading the game and genuinely want to figure out who scum are and lynch them. Is that enough to want either of them dead on day one, when I think they can be read accurately going forward? I don't know. Perhaps.
So I think you're town, and I think it would be helpful if you got there with me. Let's talk about how we get there. Want to real time/have any questions you would like my answers to?
Hum.
Talk to me about why I'm town.
My problem is that you voted me for reasons I'm not sure make sense coming from you as a villager, and then pivoted to a town read on me for reasons I... don't really fully understand. I am town, but especially coming on the back of Mistborn, which might be the best scum performance I've ever had, it felt kind of... opportunistic to town read me, as it became more clear that I wasn't going to be suspected or lynched overall.
It's a similar problem that I'm having with Osie, that the timing of it is kind of suspect, and I just don't think I've been all that villagery this game. I've been struggling to get my head in the game, I have almost no conviction in my reads, and like. Your progression from voting to 'I think you're probably town' just doesn't feel natural.
I can fully understand an approach to me that is "I'm going to just assume you're town, because if you aren't it'll be obvious in a few days", but that's not quite what happened.
That's the approach Vaimes has, and probably Beruru as well, towards me, and it makes sense given our history - but you're citing an actual town read and I don't really understand why you have it.
You know what? I'm just going to say I'm like 90% sure that Shadow is town, and if he's not then I believe I should be able to figure it out later. Otherwise, I'm roughly okay with Voxx's lunch pool, minus myself of course.
You know what? I'm just going to say I'm like 90% sure that Shadow is town, and if he's not then I believe I should be able to figure it out later. Otherwise, I'm roughly okay with Voxx's lunch pool, minus myself of course.
Okay. Why? To the Shadow read. 90% is pretty strong conviction.
Voxx, Mistborn was an amazing game for you, but I'm not scared of your scum game because I feel like I caught you, which makes me think I could do it again late game. Also I liked your analysis on my assertions about a you/Vaimes team combo.
And I'm expressing a town read on you because it's simpler and I could change that if needed. Adding in the "*this only applies if Voxx gets killed before day 3" tag seems like a hassle.
Also, fwiw, even when I had my vote on you, I knew that lynching you was just not going to happen, in the same way that I knew I wasn't going to be lynched.
You know what? I'm just going to say I'm like 90% sure that Shadow is town, and if he's not then I believe I should be able to figure it out later. Otherwise, I'm roughly okay with Voxx's lunch pool, minus myself of course.
O.o
How sure we're you that I was town in Horsemen?
You know what? I'm just going to say I'm like 90% sure that Shadow is town, and if he's not then I believe I should be able to figure it out later. Otherwise, I'm roughly okay with Voxx's lunch pool, minus myself of course.
O.o
How sure we're you that I was town in Horsemen?
Not nearly that certain. But it didn't feel like it was staring me in the face there. I believe that you were generally in the middle for me that game...
As for pocketing, I wouldn't try that two scum games in a row with you. That would just be dumb.
Also LoL is awesome.
Seriously I'm gonna try and knock out a T/S list on my bus ride home today. I am sorry for dropping off the past few days, it couldn't be helped and I'm not at 100% yet.
Try a little harder...
Your "Weakest of reasons" is referring to this ISO of you, I'm guessing:
Although, to be fair, I didn't really talk much about you at all before jumping whole hog into Jenna's posts.
But sure, I'm down for going over your posts in further detail.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
I do what I want!
~~~~~~~~~~~
Isn't having fun pretty NAI? And what about the big concern on Jenna that myself and RT have expressed?
Town
Shadow
Vaimes
Voxx
Less Town
Killjoy
King Torg
Tubba?
Hmm
Dota
A Bear
Less Scum
Reverb
Osie (Flailing not factored into this read, can confirm, Osie seems flaily in every gamed I've played with him)
Colin
Scum
Jenna
@Colin: is the order within each tier of your T/S list relevant or is it arbitrary? I find your list feels somewhat inconsistent with your actual descriptions of each individual. Did you have the list before writing the descriptions or create it after writing down thoughts?
@Reverb: can you explain what you meant by this:
"shadow -
shadow is clearly capable of faking his points if he is scum. ..... but I think if shadow he may have asked his partner(s) to do some distancing early. shadow was never in any actual danger of dying."
It feels like you know who I am.
Jenna: I find you difficult to discern, and I think that's intentional, and I don't trust you. Is playing a character with this depth a common thing for you, or is this something you've decided to add to your repertoire?
Vote Jenna
Re: the Big Concern, would you mind tl;dr'ing it?
She's been evasive and dodgy in response to questions. A list of badly answered or unanswered questions from me. Tau noted her question dodging as well in #149, although he backed down on it a bit. Colin also mentioned it in #158.
1. I feel like I'm struggling to get a read on Vaimes, and I'm not sure where to go with it. Therefore I'm more inclined to sheep a little bit. Maybe Vaimes should be one tier down, but those tiers are pretty close together anyway, so it's not a huge deal. I put him in the Outskirts as I am unlikely to be willing to vote for him today.
2. I'd like to do this at a later date as I don't feel I can commit the brain power and time to do so now, and a sloppy job would be counter-productive.
3. Everything apart from Reaverb's opening felt so townie to me that I'm willing to shelf how I feel about it. That's what I mean by saying "I'm not going to push it further at this point."
I'm not townreading shadow hard. I think I have done him a disservice in the groupings though. I think I didn't put as much thought into the middle two groups as I could have.
The grouping thing is more of a quick summary anyway and wont provide a full picture alone. The content of my reads is more important. It is where I started, so a few of my feelings may have changed while I was typing them up. My strongest ones did not shift at all though.
I just touched on this above, but I'll expand. I wrote the groupings first and then typed out my thoughts, I can't remember if I did any sort of re-grouping after writing everything though. The order of the names in each group is not relevant. I should have alphabetised it really.
I felt the post presented someone who was going through the thread and noting anything of interest that they had a comment on. It felt natural as Killjoy seemed to not be concerned about how long ago the post was made and if it was still relevant in the current time. If he had something to say, it didn't matter that the moment had passed he wanted to say it. For me, it showed that he wanted to be involved in the game and give content on what had happened so far without it. It presents a lot of opportunities for the other players to interact with him, which would have otherwise been missed due to him not being present in the game before that. Also, he's asking questions of other players and actively seeking out those interactions.
Vaimes, the problem is that the only reason that those metas were like that is because Sotek forced everyone to act in a way that was +ev to him specifically for collecting data as long as he was the only one using The Machine. Everyone was enamoured with it, so they went along with it for years and years and years. Sotek didn’t really practice what he preached as far as voting went, either, btw. You can look that up. The only reasons why he voted outside of consolidation were to try to influence wagons in a way that gave him even more data. I know I’m town, and I don’t need to analyze my own votes to be able to read my own role PM… is basically the thing. Also, I’m trying a new strat. I don’t think it’s going to work in this game because it’s been dead air in here most of the time... Voxx says it works for him on this forum, though? The “sit back and watch other players do things without your influence in order to generate something as close to (wide text) spectator chat reads as possible”? I think that’s my wording and not his at the end there but I feel like with my IRL situation it’s the strat that makes the most sense for me rn. Even if I had time, regular Beruposting would drown the thread, so...
As far as analyzing things from a votes perspective in this game, it’s mostly been trash so far. I’ve moved on to charting people’s town/scumreads because that seems more helpful to me than the scattered votes I’m seeing? I need more pen colours and a bigger sheet of paper, but mostly I’m just keeping track of hard town/scumreads right now. I’m still surprised that literally nobody is townreading Archon, but it turns out that Osie isn’t actually being townread by anyone either? Shadow has been getting some minor townreads, mostly for being the wagon target, I think, but… I think it would be useful if people ranked Osie/Archon/Shadow and gave reasons, tbh. Like, people are making read walls, so I can see where they’re at, but if you don’t give actual reasons for why people are where they are, you can just bull***** a list of names.
Things I actually got out of the machine…
Osie’s vote movements indicate that he’s most likely town, but he put himself in a position where, if he’s mafia, he has to be super ultra town in order to not just ******* Die from early misplays. He also has the worst positions/reasoning on the Shadow wagon. Besides that, though, his content is way better than Archon, in that it actually exists, he has more than one scumread (or read period tbh), and he’s actually engaging people. I feel like if the Shadow wagon hadn’t happened, this guy wouldn’t be getting as many scumreads as he actually is.
Also beginning to wonder if Archon’s team is just leaving him for dead, tbh? Literally nobody is willing to defend him or get him to explain anything, but hardly anyone is actually voting for him. After he got scumread by basically everyone, he disappeared, too. Maybe they’re just hoping we’ll consolidate on someone else? Going into antispew a week before deadline is just giving up...
I really, really, really just want Archon and Osie to thunderdome, tbh. It would help a lot.
Vote: DoTArchon
I don’t think Tubba and Osie are w/w. I don’t think anyone would try to bury a partner that hard. Same goes for Osie/Jenna. It’s possible that Osie is extremely comfortable because he knows that neither of them is getting lynched off of his pushes and is doing some distancing so that if he ends up as today’s lynch, one/both of them look a lot better? Jenna is also voting Archon and has dug in her heels about it for a long time, even though she scumreads both Archon and Osie. Tubba is voting Osie, and also did this, like, weird OMGUS post about Reaver/Osie/Colin? so if someone is more likely to be scum with Osie, it’s prooobably Jenna.
Feeling something like Tubba/Archon +1 or Osie/Jenna/ +1 isn’t out of the realm of possibility. Tubba probably isn’t with Reaver or Colin either? The reaction to the scumreads is… I mean, if Tubba's scared that his partner(s) are going to bus him D1 for no reason and is flipping the **** out about getting, like, two votes? maybe? We have time to resolve this, tho.
I can pull up votals from any point in the game, btw, so if you want the state of the votal at the time someone voted, you can just @ me and I'll dump it.
Fun Beru Facts: just realized that this is the first game I’ve actually played with Voxx in at least three years, maybe four? That’s weird.
That sounds like a really terrible strategy...
Your Voxx conclusions are totally off. Your premises aren't wrong, but despite claiming to strongly dislike scum he's historically been very good at it. A couple years back I recall him claiming to never had been lynched as scum without a mechanical guilty across dozens of scum games.
Tubba has state they like waiting to vote as Town, which implies they do not agree with the normal evaluation Town should change their vote quite often, and having a vote down is always correct. However, he still participates in RVS, which is just this evaluation pushed to extreme due to extreme lack of info at the beginning of the game. This is inconsistent.
@A Bear Torg was/is in the "needs to post more nulls"
I missed this post between the 1st and 2nd TubbaFett post I quoted here:
It's weird he didn't vote Osie in ^ post but less weird than voting Osie just for "flailing" when they had done the exact same scumtell as DoTA.
(This is also my response to @Osie's question about what I cared about in TubbaFett's progression on them, which triggered me noticing this)
---------------
That is a scumtell for Osie. I think Osie has towntell'd in some with other things while DoTA hasn't.
First sentence is "I feel like Killjoy is reading the thread, and therefore and Townreading him" ???
Second/Third sentences are....I don't know where or how much forum mafia you've played in the past but necroquoting (neologism by me, pretty clear analogy to necroposting) is something I've seen from scum more often than Town. For the exact reasons you mentioned, it helps players look Town while being significantly less +EV Town than most other types of content. Also, a good amount of the content in #142 was the equivalent of Killjoy responding to a post with "lol".
Fourth sentence "presents a lot of opportunities for the other players to interact with him": That would be a lot better accomplished with a reads-post, and having everybody start arguing about necroquotes tends to degrade Town conversation more than it actually helps.
Final sentence is fine, although asking questions as scum isn't rocket science.
I think Colin's post there is scummy in isolation, regardless of Killjoy's alignment, but I think it's even more scummy if Killjoy is scum and less-scummy-but-still-bad if Killjoy is Town?
Besides the necroquoting Killjoy has done little besides ask/respond to questions and give a wrong-meta read on Voxx.
AB, is it your belief that I have no desire to vote OO? If so, please describe its origin.
Relatedly, this seems to be the point where future JT answered the twelve.
For the sake of sanity, (yes, this is where it happens), no quoting method is employed. Your understanding of this matter is appreciated.
1 = First paragraph of 81
2 = I must have been mistaken in my thoughts.
3 = I cannot recall. Perhaps I did not mean V. Though for that to be the case I would have to assign it elsewhere, and I do not think I could. It may still be from a future moment.
4 = Third paragraph of 81.
5 = 85.
6 = Why should it be significant?
7 = 122, 123.
Dear SL: 203 is answered with 123. It is simply what the game evokes. If it were not to be, it wouldn't have happened. And, it makes me feel happy. Apologies for the interruption, I will let future JT continue.
Thank you.
8 = Second paragraph of 81.
9 = 211, answer 3.
10 = Clearly V is royalty. Though I suspect you wish past JT to answer that one. I'm not sure if she did.
11 = I shall not be discussing this.
12 = Pointless conjecture.
But there are bonuses.
OD1: This is the source of my intense distrust of OO.
OD2: There is no OD2. Why necessitate a separate section with plurality when it contains only one item?
In my experience a "reads-post" would be more indicative of scum. It gives more room for maneuverability and it's lazier. The post felt really good to me. When I read it I felt comfortable, like it's a natural post rather than a constructed one. As I've said earlier I'm an emotional player, so that's going to skew things which can be read multiple ways at times. Either way, I think the post is a good measuring stick showing Killjoy's thought process which can be used to compare future posts and interactions.
DoTArchon - 3 (Jenna Tolaria, King Torg, A Bear)
osieorb18 - 3 (DoTArchon, Tubba Fett, Killjoy)
Jenna Tolaria - 2 (osieorb18, shadowlancerx)
A Bear - 1 (Vaimes)
Killjoy - 1 (Reaverb Tau)
shadowlancerx - 1 (Voxxicus)
Not Voting - 1 (Colin)
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends at 11:59 on 15 October 2017.
If your vote is uncounted and I didn't say why, please PM me or DM me on discord so I can investigate.
1. That is somewhat evasive, though, was my point. Why obfuscate the answer with the whole perhaps game?
2. Fair.
3. Okay.
4. This is less obfuscated, but the way it reads suggests that you're sure of your read despite a lack of evidence. Why so certain?
5. This answer is incredibly evasive, and effectively meaningless. It's very cagey, as I mentioned. I don't understand why you feel the need to dodge the question, and it looks really suspicious.
6. Wait, so you're now turning around and saying that the Shadow wagon might not be significant. What the heck even is this?
7. Nothing to add, just the posts I quoted… :face_with_rolling_eyes:
8. Fair.
9. You mean this post, I'm guessing, since Tau's #211 doesn't talk about Vaimes. That's reasonable.
10. Funny.
11. Okay. I mean, you've somewhat answered it in a manner of speaking anyways.
12. True, that.
OD: You distrust me because I was poking fun at your posting style? Or is it because of the suggestion that you're either: Daring (audacious) scum, Incautious (feckless) town, or naive scum/town? That statement was just after the seed of suspicion was first planted towards you for me.
But thanks for putting something forward as answers to most of the questions. I'm marginally less suspicious of you.
Still suspicious of Tubba, and you are not out of my scumspects yet (Edit before Posting: Getting there, though, and out of bottom three), but Unvote for now.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
In reading this and some of your other posts, though, I want to ISO DoTA. So I will…
Here we go…
His RVS vote felt like, well, just an RVS vote. I somewhat liked his response in #11 to Reaverb's explanation. His rhyming #44 was silly, but I think it's NAI. If there is anything there, it's WIFOM meta garbage, and that's more Shadow's territory to analyze than mine. #45 is an okay question… #52 is exactly what I was thinking at the time, though albeit it isn't exactly saying much. #57 I like for similar reasons to #11. His pivot from Shadow to me in #102 is definitely questionable. #121 is defensive, then going after an inactive, then saying very little… fearmongering… Damn. I'm down with his questions towards me here, though. #145 is defensive semantics and ALOE… Though his last bit is solid. Hmm. And no posts for two pages.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm tinfoiling super hard right now… I just looked at most players individually and some interactions, and I have a thought about the game as a whole which leaves me very worried.
Vote: DoTArchon
Of relevance to that wagon and my tinfoil -
FoS: A Bear
Whether DoTA is town or scum, that FoS remains, and I still don't care for Tubba. If those three are the scumteam, cool. I'm reasonably confident at this point in my thought that at least two of them are.
It probably has no bearing on my alignment, and should not be read as such.
Mafia is a team game. Regardless of which alignment you are, that is a true statement. There are multiple players in this game who are acting in a manner that indicates their primary focus and motivation is their own amusement, rather than working as part of that team towards the win condition in an optimal manner.
For the sake of this post, let's just assume I'm a villager - though I have made posts like this as a wolf in the past. I should not have to sort multiple layers deep to discern motivations in mafia. I should not have to read a post, decide you are being deliberately unhelpful, deliberately vague, deliberately misleading, deliberately irritating, and then try to decide if you are the type of person that is selfish enough to do that as town, on top of that. There have been multiple posts this game, from multiple people, that have actively made me close the thread and not want to post or play.
I guess I'm just asking that people take a look in the mirror, and decide if a small boost to their own personal enjoyment at their own cleverness is worth making the game a less enjoyable and more difficult experience for the people they are playing with. If the answer to that is "it is", then I have nothing else to say.
I don't care that much about the actions people take, or the exact words they say - I care about how they think, and how they get to point in terms of thought progression, and making that difficult to evaluate is anti-town. I just... don't want to have to decide if it's anti-town because of the alignment of the player in question, or because the person is town acting in such a manner.
I've had this argument with Tomsloger several times over, and I'm just...really tired of having it. Be yourself, be true, be pure, but play the damn game in a way that doesn't make the people you're playing it with not want to play it. This game is inactive and dead, and it doesn't really read like many people are having fun.
Let's try to fix that, yes?
I care about community health, I care about game health, I care about game enjoyment. I do so as both alignments. I basically yanked the entire game into higher activity in Mistborn because the host deserved a more active, and better game than he was getting. I was a wolf there. I may or may not be one here, this is pretty much an entirely OOG post that I'm making because it's still day one, and I want to enjoy this game more than I have been.
I'm not actually sure if I've played many games with him, but I've followed along with several where he's been lynched early and I shrugged like 'Could be a wolf I guess?'
Sometimes he's even a wolf, but there's been a lot of mislynches too.
I have literally zero reason to think he's town, possibly beyond the fact that no one is defending him - but I'm not sure it's even possible for his buddies to actually defend him beyond chainsawing him by pushing something /else/.
It's a lynch I'd really like to deny the wolves if he's a villager, but need him to actually post, because right now I think I kind of shrug accept the lynch.
It is interesting that there are so many scumreads on Dota, but are there really no townreads? I'm null on him atm.
Yeah, I guess so. Hm. I'll keep that in mind.
Also, I do not remmeber you in Gotham Underground. I mostly remember the mason chat... that's about it.
...shes not hiding it though. She's been very obviously avoiding questions. Like, she isn't brushing anyone off. She's just... not doing it.
That said, she's also not actively scumhunting. And I'm not sure I know how she arrived at the reads in 197.
@Jenna Please explain those reads in more detail?
Hm. This is a decent question.I'd like the answer to this as well.
(You answered, thanks)
Well... here. Read that, and tell me what you think.
Can you give me more than just fun here? I agree with the people that say fun isn't a tell. (I see you kind of answered this in 204. Can you maybe link a couple of her posts that seem to have town motives and tell me why? Thanks)
I'd say its not a tell anymore. It's pretty commonly known by now. It's also easy to fake, as its just a simple question.
1. Hm. Ok.
2. I'll hold you to that.
3.I mean... ok I guess. This doesn't feel right. For now I'll shelf it though since we're so close to deadline, and revisit later.
That's not been my experience with him. I'm pretty sure we've got him here as scum at some point.
I'm not saying he isn't a good player as scum, I'm saying his motivations change, and I feel like his motives are obvious enough this game.
Re: Tubba: I disagree here as well. I'm the same way. I participate in RVS as well, but I usually don't vote until I have a strong enough feeling someone is scum.IDK about tubba, but I prefer to get a feel for the game first by asking questions, usually... unless, like i said I have a strong feeling that someone might be scum.
Make sense? I feel like that was a mouthful.
lolwut?
First sentence: That wasn't his argument. His argument was that i had a clear train of thought.
Second/Third: Why is specifically the way I entered the game scum vs. town? Your arguments of "He could do that as scum" are kinda flimsy, and are easily countered with "he could do that as town though." Why are you so intent on scumreading me for this, and why didn't you bring this up earlier?
Fourth: I could have, but I didn't. This is what I did. Just because I didn't enter the game like you would have doesn't make me scum.
This all seems out of nowhere. I'm not sure where it came from. I was null in 149 and now I'm scum?
Hm. question here: If Colin is scum regardless of my alignment, why vote me instead of him?
I'm considering voting you for these last two posts, but its so close to deadline I feel like there is a better lynch in Osie today.
His RVS vote felt like, well, just an RVS vote. I somewhat liked his response in #11 to Reaverb's explanation. His rhyming #44 was silly, but I think it's NAI. If there is anything there, it's WIFOM meta garbage, and that's more Shadow's territory to analyze than mine. #45 is an okay question… #52 is exactly what I was thinking at the time, though albeit it isn't exactly saying much. #57 I like for similar reasons to #11. His pivot from Shadow to me in #102 is definitely questionable. #121 is defensive, then going after an inactive, then saying very little… fearmongering… Damn. I'm down with his questions towards me here, though. #145 is defensive semantics and ALOE… Though his last bit is solid. Hmm. And no posts for two pages.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm tinfoiling super hard right now… I just looked at most players individually and some interactions, and I have a thought about the game as a whole which leaves me very worried.
Vote: DoTArchon
Of relevance to that wagon and my tinfoil -
FoS: A Bear
Whether DoTA is town or scum, that FoS remains, and I still don't care for Tubba. If those three are the scumteam, cool. I'm reasonably confident at this point in my thought that at least two of them are.[/quote]Yeah... this reasoning+tinfoiling isn't enough reasoning to hop on the most prominant wagon 1.5 days from deadline.
Is there more to dota, or no? Also why Bear? Why is Bear more scum than Tubba?
Incase it counted
Unvote, vote Osie
I guess I'll chime in on the KJ/Reaverb meta stuff regarding me.
I think KJ is fundamentally correct in his assessment. I play the game to solve, and rolling scum always feels like an absolute chore. I struggle to post, especially d1/d2, and tend to trend towards the no-nonsense - my posts tend to be fine, and I don't get lynched, but I'm not having fun.
I kind of liked him isolating the 'Wagons!' post as an example, because I kind of agree that's one I probably don't make as scum, and I like the fact that he pinpointed it - shows critical thought, that it's probbbbably not just him pulling a town read out of his ass because he knows I'm never going to get lynched as town. Probably. I've kind of been burned by this kind of read before where I'm a little bit of a sucker for people pretending to read me with nuance - see Newcomb on D1 of Stargate.
But Reaverb is also correct that I'm... not a terrible wolf, despite struggling to post as a wolf. I'm usually heavily suspected the whole game, I just...kill the people that I think might actually lynch me, and bus partners into the ground to give myself breathing room.
I've never been lynched without a mechanical reason to lynch me as town or as mafia, though I was lynched once as a third party (Famous Historical Figures).
I've just been pretty fortunate to rand town almost every game on MTGS.
I think my question for Reaverb is like.
Why does KJ possibly being "wrong" about the meta read on me make him scum? Talk about where the read comes from in terms of motivation - you think the premise is correct, even, just that it doesn't make me town this game, right? I guess I'm just not really getting from point A to point B in your logic in the read.
Do you think he's scum /with/ me? Do you think he's scum who is just pulling something out of his ass to justify a town read on someone he knows is town?
What do you mean "Is there more to Dota?" Like, "Do I have further reasoning?" I feel there's not enough content, and the later posts don't look great. Also, he's 1 of 3 in a certain tinfoil world, and the only one for whom I feel that I both learn something from their alignment and that it doesn't immensely hurt us if he does flip town, given his relative lack of activity as of late.
A Bear is me jumping down a rabbit hole at the moment, on an guess in part that a bunch of my earlier reads were overthought. I'm probably being overly paranoid, but something felt off, and I want to figure out what exactly that something is.
Hrm.
Can you clarify what you mean by Osie lynch > Everything but Dota > No lynch?
Like... you're saying you'd literally lynch everyone else in the game over Dota, but don't want to no lynch? I'm not really tracking, especially given you don't have a town read on him.
You're very right. A related and important point I make now and again is:
If we can't be civil, agreeable, and participatory, what's the point?
KJ, have you read or played any games that Osie is in? Also deadline is over 50 hours away, we still have some time.
This isn't really directed at anyone so much as something I've observed; I've been talked about this game probably more than any other one thing, but I feel like I've not actually been engaged or addressed by hardly anyone, and it's kinda surreal. Now I'm not sure what to do with this info, and me saying it without actionable steps seems dumb, but I'm leaving it anyway.
---
Can I get everyone to list their top three lynch candidates? Or separate players into would lynch/won't lynch groups? We aren't knocking on the deadline's door, but we are walking up the lawn.
I would lynch:
Jenna (she's not actually in this game, and I don't feel like figuring out if the obfuscation is malicious or not.)
Reverb
Colin
I'd prefer not to lynch:
Anyone else (including Osie). I have no idea of Osie is actually town, but I have seen him do well when he is and doesn't get murderized.
I won't lynch:
Vaimes
Voxx
They'll both die to NKs. Or be my crazy tinfoil on day 3/4
I still do think there's a decent chance Shadow is scum, but I'm not lynching someone who is actually posting on D1 and that will continue to post that I think I can get a reliable read on.
To a degree that holds true for Osie too, though significantly less so, as I kind of.... am not sure I'm ever going to get to a strong town read on him this game.
The counterpoint is like.
I've read Dota's ISO, and I do not have a town read on him, but I can absolutely see ways he flips town? There's just not a whole lot there in general, and he's not around. He flips wolf, great, but not really sure it moves the needle in any way about other people, because he's not someone you can really defend, and pushes on him have trended towards the shrug rather than the conviction, because there's...no other way to push someone who is barely playing.
If he flips villager like... welp? One mislynch gone when we don't have many mislynches to spare, and it's hard to even /blame/ anyone for voting him, because he wasn't being very villagery.
The game is just so low activity that I'm lacking distinction between would lynch and want to lynch a lot more than I ususally am. I don't feel comfortable with a lynch cluster, it's like my thoughts are slipping over glass voids where players and reads should actually be, because there's just...not that much there to actually read.
Uhhh. If I have, I'm not sure what you mean in this context, so elaborate. In process of sorting through gamestate a bit in a post.
It's not an ironclad thing, I've seen scum teams all be active but... given the context of this game and how little people seem to care in general, yeah I'd say it's relatively safe to say there's probably scum somewhere in bottom half. I just don't think it holds as much weight as it does in a heavily active game because the bar for 'active' is so low that even barely-motivated scum can cross it.
A day one with 2k posts postcount sorting is a lot more accurate than a day one with 250 posts.
Let's see if I can kinda sum this up overall...
A concern that comes up often, at least in my time on this site, is experience. It's easy for someone with less experience to feel lost in a game of mafia. In the Basic, this was played up to an absurd level, a scum strategy which made the game miserable. In general, though, I find that it's not really alignment indicative, but the manner in which it's expressed can be considered a tell. It's very much a tonal element. And so I found myself looking at both Jenna and Tubba and saying "Is their manner of expression necessarily because they are scum, or because they are struggling?" In both cases, I'm not going to rule out the gut instinct that they are scum. In Jenna's case specifically, I'm inclined to believe that she might just be struggling as town due in part to tone of #111 and #197 and exactly what Vaimes expressed in #204. In Tubba's case, #153 and #160 were what did it for me, but I'm less certain. I could certainly see both of those slots being frustrated struggling town.
Meanwhile... Interaction is a crucial element to reading scum. And it's not always an easy one to read. But A Bear's #209 feels A) like it could be a bus, and B) like it could be him trying to communicate with scumbuddies. In DoTA's case, the interaction is at #121, and it kinda feels like there isn't really any feeling involved there, which just seems wrong. Given DoTA's general lack of play in this game, and express comment that
I feel that either A) He should be lynched, and we'll see where to go from there, or B) He should be replaced, and we can discuss the slot with his replacement, with a starting light scumlean based on DoTA's posting.
My suspect(s) for the other tinfoil slot will likely come up later, but I don't feel like I know enough about them yet to point at things for certain. I'm openly dodging this point for now because I don't want my suspicion to affect how they act. If that gets me lynched, so be it.
I'd be down to lynch A Bear, but I think DoTA is the better lynch right now, and it's too close to the deadline for a replacement to make sense. It also seems that everyone has DoTA as somewhere below a town read.
I'm also super freaking paranoid about this right now because of that damn Basic...
So I think you're town, and I think it would be helpful if you got there with me. Let's talk about how we get there. Want to real time/have any questions you would like my answers to?
Colin
DoTArchon
Jenna Tolaria
Killjoy (r. Empoof)
King Torg
Osieorb18
Reaverb Tau
TubbaFett
Vaimes
Voxxicus
shadowlancerx
I'm town.
Vaimes is probably town, though I wish he'd... perk up some.
Voxxicus
Vaimes
A Bear
Colin
DoTArchon
Jenna Tolaria
Killjoy (r. Empoof)
King Torg
Osieorb18
Reaverb Tau
TubbaFett
shadowlancerx
Killjoy and Colin both had state of the game type posts that I liked, and do not want to lynch them today. I'd like to see more thinking from them, but it was enough depth/nuance that I don't want them dead yet.
Voxxicus
Vaimes
Colin
Killjoy (r. Empoof)
A Bear
DoTArchon
Jenna Tolaria
King Torg
Osieorb18
Reaverb Tau
TubbaFett
shadowlancerx
I don't really want to lynch Shadowlancer today. I might not ever lynch him, but I want to examine this read further d2 if alive.
Voxxicus
Vaimes
Colin
Killjoy (r. Empoof)
Shadowlancerx
A Bear
DoTArchon
Jenna Tolaria
King Torg
Osieorb18
Reaverb Tau
TubbaFett
I don't think I'd care all that much if any of the bottom 7 names were lynched.
Osie is possibly slightly more active than I'd prefer to lynch, but there's been a lot of things he's posted that have pinged me as possibly coming from scum.
King Torg is a pretty dead/null slot. Maybe slightly more likely to be scum than rand when comparing his ISO's in this game to his other game (where he was a villager).
I've talked about Dota - he's just a pretty purely Not A Villager read, but he's not someone I strongly scum read either.
I don't think I want to lynch Tubba. He's kind of a blank spot in my mind that I want to sort out a bit, and don't think there's enough time in the day for me to be comfortable doing that and lynching him, when a majority is required, and the game is kind of dead.
Jenna is...complicated. My gut instinct is that she's... slightly self-centered town, that there's just such a lack of awareness of perception that I struggle to see coming from scum. It just...stops short of being an actual town read. Probbbbbably don't want to lynch today, but would greatly appreciate if she'd just...drop the gimmick and post straight and true.
Reaverb and Beruru are two people I'm kind of clumping together in my mind for possibly bad reasons. They both feel...wooden. Like they could be posting more, like they could be caring more, like they could be solving more, but aren't. The feeling I get from both of them is 'posting to post'. There's no drive there, no passion, no energy. I'm acknowledging part of that can be that this is a new environment from them and they're adjusting to the glacial phase lengths and the fact that it's been a kind of dead game in general, but they just aren't feeling like villagers who are reading the game and genuinely want to figure out who scum are and lynch them. Is that enough to want either of them dead on day one, when I think they can be read accurately going forward? I don't know. Perhaps.
Hum.
Talk to me about why I'm town.
My problem is that you voted me for reasons I'm not sure make sense coming from you as a villager, and then pivoted to a town read on me for reasons I... don't really fully understand. I am town, but especially coming on the back of Mistborn, which might be the best scum performance I've ever had, it felt kind of... opportunistic to town read me, as it became more clear that I wasn't going to be suspected or lynched overall.
It's a similar problem that I'm having with Osie, that the timing of it is kind of suspect, and I just don't think I've been all that villagery this game. I've been struggling to get my head in the game, I have almost no conviction in my reads, and like. Your progression from voting to 'I think you're probably town' just doesn't feel natural.
I can fully understand an approach to me that is "I'm going to just assume you're town, because if you aren't it'll be obvious in a few days", but that's not quite what happened.
That's the approach Vaimes has, and probably Beruru as well, towards me, and it makes sense given our history - but you're citing an actual town read and I don't really understand why you have it.
Okay. Why? To the Shadow read. 90% is pretty strong conviction.
And I'm expressing a town read on you because it's simpler and I could change that if needed. Adding in the "*this only applies if Voxx gets killed before day 3" tag seems like a hassle.
Also, fwiw, even when I had my vote on you, I knew that lynching you was just not going to happen, in the same way that I knew I wasn't going to be lynched.
How sure we're you that I was town in Horsemen?
Osie, if you're scum trying to pocket me I will make you die.
Not nearly that certain. But it didn't feel like it was staring me in the face there. I believe that you were generally in the middle for me that game...
As for pocketing, I wouldn't try that two scum games in a row with you. That would just be dumb.