Everyone. One of the best things scum had going for us last game was town's hesitance to communicate. The more people get engaged the easier it will be to find the people hiding things.
I thought 103 was a dream, but it exists. I'd've included it, for it answers best.
A post by KillJoy; I am excited! Is it odd to feel positive towards someone unknown? Like a true love that you haven't met yet but have been told that they're behind the door. It is as if a fairy has whispered Good Things to me, and one does not question a fairy who speaks as such. An I mad? I feel quite the opposite.
Clarifications for Killjoy: my thoughts on FruitBear bear fruit, but it is the opposite of what others vouch for. Such vouchers leave me perplexed. As for Shadow, I am proud to say that the trust comes from A Thing I Came Up With All By Myself. It is my personal achievement, stronger than mine of FruitBear, based off Shadow's strength.
Additionally, you misread me regarding King Torg: I wish for his remains to be seen.
What do you mean by the bolded? And since you've acknowledged my post, can you please respond to the rest of it as asked?
Dota, would you do a reads list? You've mostly focused on Jenna today (which is fine, I'm digging what you're doing) but I'm not sure where you stand on the rest of the game.
Could it be that I am being trolled by Archon's apparent inability to understand answers? Certainly you wouldn't admit otherwise. You would have me be part of a circular mouselike circuit otherwise and I shall not take one step.
I'm in agreement with DotA here that you probably shouldn't have outed this... at least not so early.
I know you said you thought this all the way through, but still... from the limited perspective of a lone townie... you can't have had enough info to make an adequately informed decision.
I mean... did you say this JUST to add that bit at the end telling people to wifom between you and their second towniest? This is annoyingly shortsighted.
Gonna read through Vaimes when I have a chance, though I don't expect to find much.
Vote Count 1.Final osieorb18 - 7 (DoTArchon, Tubba Fett, Killjoy, King Torg, shadowlancerx, Voxxicus, A Bear) (L-0)
A Bear - 2 (Vaimes, osieorb18)
DoTArchon - 2 (Jenna Tolaria, Reaverb Tau)
Not Voting - 1 (Colin)
Based solely on this vote count my rough guess of the scum team would be one of [Tubba, King Torg], one of [Jenna, Reaverb], and Bearfruit. Will see what interactions look like and go from here.
Hum. I don't hate this I guess?
I don't think Dota is clear, and don't think you or Colin are quite 100% clear, but I don't disagree that there's probably at least one in (Tubba/Torg/Grapefruit/Dota) and at least one in (Reaverb/Jenna/Colin). It's obviously _possible_ all 3 were on or off, but I consider that pretty unlikely given holistic gameflow things.
Hm. I can see the logic behind this, and think Voxx's version is more accurate.
It does prompt a question though.
@Shadow Your conclusion is that there is scum in two groups, and a third group that contains one person (ergo, he is scum). If Bear is for sure scum from your analysis, why didn't you vote him?
Your content up until your readspost was all things that are more effective at making somebody /look/ Town rather than /actually helping Town/ (relative to most other types of content). Nitpicking specific ancient posts makes it looks like you're evaluating everything in-thread, but it's much less effective than scanning ISOs for particular patterns of behavior or specifically ranking players in a way that can later referenced or discussed.
I put you as null in #149 because I thought it might have been a 1-shot catch-up post, but then #186 was almost identical in style. I think townreading you for that post is still weird.
I mean... that can be your opinion, I guess. But it feels like you're nitpicking too. Like, You seem to be scumreading me for not playing the game the same way as you do. There are multiple ways to scumhunt. Not everyone does it the same way.
You say here "my content up till my reads post was scummy" for the reasons you gave. Does that mean you didn't think my reads post was? What did you think of it? What did it tell you about me, and where my head is at?
This and Shadow's quick barn of it jump out at me. Jenna's post is the kind that demands follow up. But neither really does anything more than poke at it. It feels like rushing to try and point to how weak the post was rather than being interested in trying to figure out what it means. All three people involved look scummy for it but in an unaligned way.
Can you exand on this? Why are each of these people scummy?
Also, how can they all be scummy AND unaligned? That doesn't make sense.
Reaverb: Your play this game has felt more about pushing to lynch people rather than pushing to find alignments. For instance Tubba; you pushed him for a certain progression he made, then when you realized your missed a post, you didn't really reevaluate that read so much as seem disappointed you couldn't push him more. You've also been a little jumpy/preemptive with keeping people from pushing you. Your first two posts of the game are an example of this, as well your post where you throw out percentage likelihoods of Colin and KJ being scum then immediately cover it with "but those are just eyeball'd, don't hold me to them".
Just reading through your posts there's a bunch of small markers all over that are scummy in a vacuum as well, and not a lot of indicators of a townie mindset that I can see.
I'd love to see you expand on this with examples. All I'm seeing from him right now is him tunnelling on me.
On the subject of Tubba, his very first game just ended, and he was scum. I think it's worth Isoing him in it, as I think his play has been different so far in this game. Granted, I caught him in that game and I recognize that he might have adjusted his play to counter act me, but I think it's relevant.
This isn't really alignment indicative. There are a lot of things that influcence how a person plays a game: gameflow, which players are present, the resulting game FEEL based on who's there, what arguments they're making etc, and of course alignment.
Basically I don't think that"they're different than that other game" is a good metric for alignment. I've actually gotten burned by this once. I can't reemmeber the dudes name though. He was in the most recent uPick... name started with a D. Neat fantasyesque name.
A post by KillJoy; I am excited! Is it odd to feel positive towards someone unknown? Like a true love that you haven't met yet but have been told that they're behind the door. It is as if a fairy has whispered Good Things to me, and one does not question a fairy who speaks as such. An I mad? I feel quite the opposite.
I'm interpreting this as you now townreading me... for trying to interpret your posts? Is that right?
Clarifications for Killjoy: my thoughts on FruitBear bear fruit, but it is the opposite of what others vouch for. Such vouchers leave me perplexed. As for Shadow, I am proud to say that the trust comes from A Thing I Came Up With All By Myself. It is my personal achievement, stronger than mine of FruitBear, based off Shadow's strength.
Additionally, you misread me regarding King Torg: I wish for his remains to be seen.
So, you're perplexed by those who vouch for Bear.You're scumreading him, and don't understand why people aren't... right?
I'm guessing your read on Shadow is based on your experience with him?
And you're scumreading Torg.
Why DotA over Torg then? If you're so sure, why not push Torg over DotA?
The contrast between Torg and Tubba causes great amusement.
One showcases fear of the unknown, the other yearns to understand it. Would it be too far-fetched to suggest that these poles translate into other matters? I think not. My mind's made.
Torg/tubba unaligned.
But... I have to assume you mean Torg is the one who fears, and tubba is the one who yearns. Otherwise your scumread wouldn't make sense.
So, townreading Tubba, scumreading torg.
If you're townreading tubba, what do you think of Colin/his case on Tubba?
Dota, would you do a reads list? You've mostly focused on Jenna today (which is fine, I'm digging what you're doing) but I'm not sure where you stand on the rest of the game.
This is, I believe, the second person to ask for this. I'll be a third, if it helps.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Shadow Your conclusion is that there is scum in two groups, and a third group that contains one person (ergo, he is scum). If Bear is for sure scum from your analysis, why didn't you vote him?
@KJ: because that analysis was based solely on the Votecount and I think I can do better.
On the subject of Tubba, his very first game just ended, and he was scum. I think it's worth Isoing him in it, as I think his play has been different so far in this game. Granted, I caught him in that game and I recognize that he might have adjusted his play to counter act me, but I think it's relevant.
This isn't really alignment indicative. There are a lot of things that influcence how a person plays a game: gameflow, which players are present, the resulting game FEEL based on who's there, what arguments they're making etc, and of course alignment.
Basically I don't think that"they're different than that other game" is a good metric for alignment. I've actually gotten burned by this once. I can't reemmeber the dudes name though. He was in the most recent uPick... name started with a D. Neat fantasyesque name.
I would agree to the point that it's not a great metric to a point, but it's not nothing, and it's worth at least having an eye on.
You had one more for me about wanting some examples from Reaverb's iso of his scumminess, which I'll get for you probably tomorrow, out of time right now.
Corrections, corrections. Might if I be a secretary, my pockets lined.
Killjoy, oh Killjoy. You are right about yourself, and Torg, and Tubba, but BearFruit you are mistaken. It is he who I trust, and yet others do not, quite strongly near the end of yesterday.
Archon is the original Kismet. May he be first, or second to Torg, it matters not. If they could be Disposed Of simultaneously, I would wish it.
It brings me joy and freedom to write to you, Killjoy. No one here has arrived as you have, though Tubba nears. Greet him fondly when you see him.
In my experience a "reads-post" would be more indicative of scum. It gives more room for maneuverability and it's lazier. The post felt really good to me. When I read it I felt comfortable, like it's a natural post rather than a constructed one. As I've said earlier I'm an emotional player, so that's going to skew things which can be read multiple ways at times. Either way, I think the post is a good measuring stick showing Killjoy's thought process which can be used to compare future posts and interactions.
Could you give an example of something you think Killjoy has committed to? Give an example of something Killjoy could post that you would call a walk-back. Because right now he hasn't committed to any reads except Voxx being Town, which was justified with false premises anyway.
I'm actually in the process of looking deeper into Killjoy at the moment. I'm not sure whether I'll get it up today or tomorrow as my schedule has gone a little haywire this weekend.
Junna's continued evasiveness (which was brought up on day one by me and others) and misinformation has pretty much hit breaking point for me. I'd be happy to lynch her today if Tubba doesn't get traction (or if he preforms a miracle).
I'm going to throw down where I'm at. If I get your gender wrong I'm sorry, I'm just typing instinctively and I have no idea who any of you are (apart from the Bear).
The most important thing I think town should know about me is that I am an emotional player and tend to trust my feelings and instinct more than actual content, but only if those feelings are especially strong. Also, this doesn't mean I don't take note of content because I do. I'll to give a loose example; if I have a strong feeling that someone is mafia, they'll have to produce more substantial content from a town perspective than someone who I have no strong feelings about in order for me to read them town. Of course the opposite applies too.
Tubba completely avoiding addressing my post is pretty bonkers considering the other engagement he's shown.
Junna's continued evasiveness (which was brought up on day one by me and others) and misinformation has pretty much hit breaking point for me. I'd be happy to lynch her today if Tubba doesn't get traction (or if he preforms a miracle).
I just don't see the benefit in doing any heavy lifting to change your opinion of me. Your read is wrong, and that's all there is to it. My play style doesn't match up with your expectations. I'm ok with it. Since that's a non-starter, I'm not going to say anything else about it.
I think your off on Jenna as well. While her posts are certainly cryptic at first glance, imo she's not spreading misinformation nor being especially evasive. I was frustrated by the posting style as well, but would scum really draw such negative attention? That's a hell of a gambit.
Speaking of gambits, I can't help but be suspicious of Voxx right now. He's perfectly suited to take a chance on a Hail Mary after banking town cred on the Vaimes read of him.
That's a post series that muddles the game as opposed to helping solve it. Town chases its tail trying to figure out how scum knows where the power is, we give Voxx more town cred as town power, but we don't actually gain any information.
This assumes scumVoxx is real, of course. That's something I want to hear opinions on.
04. Reaverb Tau - Oft seen, yet topics unremarkable.
05. Grapefruit21 r. A Bear - Perhaps I should have listened to me of past future. I will observe the new shell.
02. DoTArchon - The transdimensional nightmare.
06. King Torg - The unthinker.
09. Colin - The untrustable. Comments toward Bear, Tubba, and myself defy reality. Queued for disposal.
He wants to look Town more than he actually wants to help Town.
I want to bring up #142 and #186 again.
I've said in the past they're bringing up old posts just to look Town and not actually trying to solve the game. Let's dissect #142.
It's composed of 13 posts and response by Killjoy. Coloring to be explained later. In order:
Quote 1 - Vaimes - A question to Vaimes Killjoy never follows up on.
Quote 2 - Voxxicus - Vox townread based on a single post
Quote 3 - Osie - Asks about Vaimes meta
Quote 4 - Colin - compliments Colin's joke post
Quote 5 - King Torg - compliments Torg's joke post
Quote 6 - Reaverb Tau (myself) - Killjoy states they are townreading Shadow for "town vibes"
Quote 7 - Osie - States they don't like Osie's Voxx vote. They give no reasons for not liking the vote, and do not say how much that makes them think Osie is scum
Quote 8 - Shadow - Tries to establish Voxx-shadow meta relationship
Quote 9 - Voxx - States that DotA and Osie are anti-aligned with Shadow, and there was probably a scum on the Shadow wagon
Quote 10 - Voxx - Asks how confident Voxx is in their Vaimes read, and asks for Voxx's Osie read
Quote 11 - King Torg - Asks King Torg what they think is the motivation for a DoTA post given DoTA is scum
Quote 12 - DoTA - asks about more information of why DoTA thinks Shadow's phrasing when talking about the lynch is seems scummy.
Quote 13 - Jenna - asks Jenna who the most likely scumbuddy of Osie is.
Post ends with Killjoy voting Osie
First note he didn't actually say that all much, it looks like a big wall of text with the quotes but it's a couple paragraphs with long explanations.
Second, what he did say was not particularly +EV Town. Brown are things which are clearly not helpful. Orangish-yellow are questions that are somewhat helpful but clarify things which would likely be cleared up if they ever became relevant. Purple are reads which have little justification and don't commit to anything - Killjoy is free to walk them back at any time, and they cannot be challenged by players who think they are wrong because there's no clear premises and chain of logic. The Red comment repeats ideas already well established in-thread. Blue is a couple questions I just think are weak and establish minutiae not particularly relevant to discussion - nobody is seriously going to lynch Shadow based on just some poor wording.
Could it be that I am being trolled by Archon's apparent inability to understand answers? Certainly you wouldn't admit otherwise. You would have me be part of a circular mouselike circuit otherwise and I shall not take one step.
Maybe your posts do contain answers, but I have a limited amount of time to spend on this game. If this style of posting is fun for you, great. I have better things to do than waste my time trying to decipher this nonsense.
Voxx has been my top town read for the reasons I mentioned earlier for quite a while now. I've read Reverb's post on why he thinks KJ is scum but I don't read KJ the same. His approach to this game has not looked like a scum approach to me.
-Lean Town-
Shadow, Colin, Jenna, Reverb
There's a lot of reasons why this block contains so many players, but the primary is that I don't see anything that stands out as off with any of them. Jenna is the exception here, I'm not going to bother trying any more with her. The only reason I'm leaning town on her is that I can't imagine scum would go through this much effort to stand out. That and the Shadow vote that put him at L-2. Almost a case of too scum to be scum.
-Null and below-
Tubba, Torg, Grapefruit
I'll admit, Tubba and Torg are two players I need to reread. In my last reads list I mentioned not really liking either of them but things have happened since then.
Grapefruit is in this grouping because a)Vaimes and Voxx had both gone after Bear during Day 1 and b) there's something odd I picked up on in day one in one of Bears posts that I can no longer ask about, but it makes me want to keep an eye on how Grape progresses.
The
I've had a town read on you since your return from the V/LA. Before that I was a bit uncertain but your posts from that point onwards read to me as pure info spill, you're putting down everything that's going through your mind and none of it reads as scum trying to push an agenda.
Vaimes dying on night 1 solidifies that read for me because the two of you have a history together and I think scumVoxx would keep a townVaimes who wasn't scumreading him alive as long as possible because, if played correctly, he would defend you to the end or, if you flip he gets mislynched as a partner.
I could possibly see one of Shadow and Killjoy having a hand in selecting Vaimes as the N1 target, but I have kinda have townreads on both at the moment.
I disagree with the bolded text. Vaimes townreading Voxx, then flipping town is the second best thing that could happen to scumVoxx. Best was nk power role to boot. scumVoxx makes a killing with this play, and doesn't have to worry about Vaimes (a player of some experience I assume, and familiar with Voxx as well?) ever suspecting him.
#186 is very similar to #142 in style, it also has lots of noise and little signal. Not going to break it down like #142 unless somebody wants me to, but the only good thing in the post is his read on Voxx (which is a towntell, building a read on a false premise so you can undermine it later when convenient is a theoretically good scum strategy but I've never actually seen somebody do it).
#223 is very similar to #142 and #186, although it also adds asking me a bunch of questions for scumreading him, which is something I didn't notice earlier.
He continues the pattern of noise-without-activity until #286 (once again I can break down any singe specific post but if I tried to dissect his entire ISO I'd be here for hours). In reaction to my noise-without-signal read, he posts a readsposts.
Readsposts aren't always good, but one thing they are very good is forcing players to draw conclusions. Killjoy's only clear positions before #286 were Voxx!Town, Osie!scum and hesitatingly scumreading DoTA and myself based on a specific response to a question. he didn't draw any line with the other players - just did snapshot reads that could be remixed or dismissed later.
-------------
Voxx: I've given reasons for this, and his later posts have held true to it. He's trying to solve the game, Voxx style.
Colin: hasn't posted much, but I like where his head is at. He's critically thinking. Potentially a little biased because a lot of that has gone into thinking I'm town and defending me.
Bear: Similar to Colin, Critically thinking, but less so.
Vaimes: This is MOSTLY sheeping Voxx. He seems pretty sure that Vaimes is town, and I've had a bunch of trouble reading Vaimes. So I'm trusting Voxx on this for now.
Shadow: His early posts were giving me town vibes, like I said... plus the speed of the early wagon on him makes me think it was probably a wagon on town. That said, Vaimes did make a good point that shadow asking who on his wagon is scum and not doing the work is weird. Also he doesn't want to lynch either of the major wagons, which is also weird.
Tubba/King Torg/Jenna: None of these have really made a large impression on me.
REaver: I don't fully understand where he's coming from. Like, he thinks I'm scum for not posting a reads list, but never asks me for one. Also his 214 feels off.
DotA: Been over this. Not really scum but specifically doesn't really feel town, which I don't like.
Osie: I plan later today to make a post on this. Suffice it to say his mindset feels scummy to me.
This makes me feel slightly worse about scumreading Killjoy but it's not strong. All the underlines are places he keeps using weasel words that don't actually mean anything. "Critically thinking" isn't something verifiable. I think a Townie would be more likely to say something along the lines of "..though process on X and Y is critically thinking because Z and W etc." Flatly asserting somebody is "critically thinking" is not going to convince anybody of that fact. Bold is things already stated in thread.
I do like that he specifically ranked players. That is at the very least something we can cross-reference later and does fit with his stated views of the gamestate. He did not, however, take the opportunity to elaborate on his reads or even bring in very much of the comments he made on the thread in his previous activity.
His next "big" post is his Osie post, which is very too-little-to-late for trying to swing the lynch, so it seems like something he posted because he had already put the work in:
So, faking a post restriction is NAI. So I don't care about that.
Osie first got on my radar with the vote on Voxx. It felt... off. Like he was just trying to do... something.
Osie's 118 is the next thing that bothered me. Its a train of thought post, Except some of the questions are meaningless (how much wood could a woodchuck chuck?)
The Reads list in 129 is another thing. Its full of weak townreads and fence sitting.Gives him the freedom to mostly go anywhere with his reads should he need to.
The whole post on Jenna seems ridiculous. IDK if Osie just didn't think that through, but what I (and now Vaimes) have alluded to is that the way she's doing this isn't something scum would necessarily do.
I pointed out 220. 200 posts into the game where quite a bit has happened and his best lynches are all based on his tinfoil worlds instead of ACTUAL things.
245, 277 are just barning Voxx. 277 in particular I'm annoyed he's not here to answer my question becuase it's very important.I need him to answer what behavior he objected to. It looks outwardly like he's just trying to copy Voxx with no reasons of his own.
The only thing thats giving me pause here (that I'm realizing right now) is that, ISOing him... nothing seems town.Like... nothing. Its all either superficial or scum.So. Shrug?
But all this stuff still adds up to scum, I think.
First, I am surprised he did not specifically deny my #296. He states he saw not reason to Townread Osie, but doesn't discuss my reasons for townreading Osie.
Second, note this readspost is very independent of the things he's been commented on. I believe Killjoy had mentioned 118 and 220 recently, but I'm not entirely sure (no post numbers in quotes). This is indicative - even Killjoy isn't particularly using his stream-of-conciousness style comments.
I do think this is still a Town Points Post (tm). It's just suppressed by the things I don't like and then killjoy's net is brought down by his other content.
#405 is then a return to stream-of-conciousness low impact-ism.
---------
@Voxx Can you talk more about your townread on Killjoy and the case here?
Reaverb: Your play this game has felt more about pushing to lynch people rather than pushing to find alignments. For instance Tubba; you pushed him for a certain progression he made, then when you realized your missed a post, you didn't really reevaluate that read so much as seem disappointed you couldn't push him more. You've also been a little jumpy/preemptive with keeping people from pushing you. Your first two posts of the game are an example of this, as well your post where you throw out percentage likelihoods of Colin and KJ being scum then immediately cover it with "but those are just eyeball'd, don't hold me to them".
Just reading through your posts there's a bunch of small markers all over that are scummy in a vacuum as well, and not a lot of indicators of a townie mindset that I can see.
1) I as very disappointed when my King Torg progression turned out to be factually wrong. I thought I had a caught a scum, then it turns out I hadn't. It also indicated even if my reads contain factual errors the thread isn't going to be able to help me correct them, and having other players check my work is my favorite part of posting reads in-thread.
2) I hate getting pushed for all the same reasons Voxx does, plus I actually get mislynched occasionally so it's even worse.
Could it be that I am being trolled by Archon's apparent inability to understand answers? Certainly you wouldn't admit otherwise. You would have me be part of a circular mouselike circuit otherwise and I shall not take one step.
Maybe your posts do contain answers, but I have a limited amount of time to spend on this game. If this style of posting is fun for you, great. I have better things to do than waste my time trying to decipher this nonsense.
Was it not an entrance requirement that you have time to spend?
I would agree to the point that it's not a great metric to a point, but it's not nothing, and it's worth at least having an eye on.
You had one more for me about wanting some examples from Reaverb's iso of his scumminess, which I'll get for you probably tomorrow, out of time right now.
I feel like there's a logical fallacy I'm forgetting that applies here. Its like, the opposite of correlation =/= causation, where a lack of correlation is simalarly not equal to causation.
Or maybe it is just correlation =/= causation where you seeing a difference in play correlates to people of different alignments sometimes play differently, but that's not logically the cause.
Re: the ISO: I'm looking forward to seeing your thought process.
I just don't see the benefit in doing any heavy lifting to change your opinion of me. Your read is wrong, and that's all there is to it. My play style doesn't match up with your expectations. I'm ok with it. Since that's a non-starter, I'm not going to say anything else about it.
I think your off on Jenna as well. While her posts are certainly cryptic at first glance, imo she's not spreading misinformation nor being especially evasive. I was frustrated by the posting style as well, but would scum really draw such negative attention? That's a hell of a gambit.
Speaking of gambits, I can't help but be suspicious of Voxx right now. He's perfectly suited to take a chance on a Hail Mary after banking town cred on the Vaimes read of him.
That's a post series that muddles the game as opposed to helping solve it. Town chases its tail trying to figure out how scum knows where the power is, we give Voxx more town cred as town power, but we don't actually gain any information.
This assumes scumVoxx is real, of course. That's something I want to hear opinions on.
Hm. I kind of like this post.
Tubba, talk to me about scum!Voxx. What does he do to live to end game? Does his claiming to be roleblocked play to that end as well?
He wants to look Town more than he actually wants to help Town.
I want to bring up #142 and #186 again.
I've said in the past they're bringing up old posts just to look Town and not actually trying to solve the game. Let's dissect #142.
It's composed of 13 posts and response by Killjoy. Coloring to be explained later. In order:
Quote 1 - Vaimes - A question to Vaimes Killjoy never follows up on.
Quote 2 - Voxxicus - Vox townread based on a single post
Quote 3 - Osie - Asks about Vaimes meta
Quote 4 - Colin - compliments Colin's joke post
Quote 5 - King Torg - compliments Torg's joke post
Quote 6 - Reaverb Tau (myself) - Killjoy states they are townreading Shadow for "town vibes"
Quote 7 - Osie - States they don't like Osie's Voxx vote. They give no reasons for not liking the vote, and do not say how much that makes them think Osie is scum
Quote 8 - Shadow - Tries to establish Voxx-shadow meta relationship
Quote 9 - Voxx - States that DotA and Osie are anti-aligned with Shadow, and there was probably a scum on the Shadow wagon
Quote 10 - Voxx - Asks how confident Voxx is in their Vaimes read, and asks for Voxx's Osie read
Quote 11 - King Torg - Asks King Torg what they think is the motivation for a DoTA post given DoTA is scum
Quote 12 - DoTA - asks about more information of why DoTA thinks Shadow's phrasing when talking about the lynch is seems scummy.
Quote 13 - Jenna - asks Jenna who the most likely scumbuddy of Osie is.
Post ends with Killjoy voting Osie
First note he didn't actually say that all much, it looks like a big wall of text with the quotes but it's a couple paragraphs with long explanations.
Second, what he did say was not particularly +EV Town. Brown are things which are clearly not helpful. Orangish-yellow are questions that are somewhat helpful but clarify things which would likely be cleared up if they ever became relevant. Purple are reads which have little justification and don't commit to anything - Killjoy is free to walk them back at any time, and they cannot be challenged by players who think they are wrong because there's no clear premises and chain of logic. The Red comment repeats ideas already well established in-thread. Blue is a couple questions I just think are weak and establish minutiae not particularly relevant to discussion - nobody is seriously going to lynch Shadow based on just some poor wording.
To be continued tomorrow.
Erm... no. This is... just flat out wrong.
This all presupposes that my intent when I was making this post was to give the thread insight into my slots state of mind. Like, you seem to think that... when I was making the post, the thoughts running through my head should have been relating to the concequences of my post... which is a scum mentality. You're presupposing I'm scum and going from there. You're tunneling. Try to look at these things objectively. It's hard to take you seriously while you're thinking like this about me.
#186 is very similar to #142 in style, it also has lots of noise and little signal. Not going to break it down like #142 unless somebody wants me to, but the only good thing in the post is his read on Voxx (which is a towntell, building a read on a false premise so you can undermine it later when convenient is a theoretically good scum strategy but I've never actually seen somebody do it).
#223 is very similar to #142 and #186, although it also adds asking me a bunch of questions for scumreading him, which is something I didn't notice earlier.
He continues the pattern of noise-without-activity until #286 (once again I can break down any singe specific post but if I tried to dissect his entire ISO I'd be here for hours). In reaction to my noise-without-signal read, he posts a readsposts.
Readsposts aren't always good, but one thing they are very good is forcing players to draw conclusions. Killjoy's only clear positions before #286 were Voxx!Town, Osie!scum and hesitatingly scumreading DoTA and myself based on a specific response to a question. he didn't draw any line with the other players - just did snapshot reads that could be remixed or dismissed later.
-------------
Voxx: I've given reasons for this, and his later posts have held true to it. He's trying to solve the game, Voxx style.
Colin: hasn't posted much, but I like where his head is at. He's critically thinking. Potentially a little biased because a lot of that has gone into thinking I'm town and defending me.
Bear: Similar to Colin, Critically thinking, but less so.
Vaimes: This is MOSTLY sheeping Voxx. He seems pretty sure that Vaimes is town, and I've had a bunch of trouble reading Vaimes. So I'm trusting Voxx on this for now.
Shadow: His early posts were giving me town vibes, like I said... plus the speed of the early wagon on him makes me think it was probably a wagon on town. That said, Vaimes did make a good point that shadow asking who on his wagon is scum and not doing the work is weird. Also he doesn't want to lynch either of the major wagons, which is also weird.
Tubba/King Torg/Jenna: None of these have really made a large impression on me.
REaver: I don't fully understand where he's coming from. Like, he thinks I'm scum for not posting a reads list, but never asks me for one. Also his 214 feels off.
DotA: Been over this. Not really scum but specifically doesn't really feel town, which I don't like.
Osie: I plan later today to make a post on this. Suffice it to say his mindset feels scummy to me.
This makes me feel slightly worse about scumreading Killjoy but it's not strong. All the underlines are places he keeps using weasel words that don't actually mean anything. "Critically thinking" isn't something verifiable. I think a Townie would be more likely to say something along the lines of "..though process on X and Y is critically thinking because Z and W etc." Flatly asserting somebody is "critically thinking" is not going to convince anybody of that fact. Bold is things already stated in thread.
I do like that he specifically ranked players. That is at the very least something we can cross-reference later and does fit with his stated views of the gamestate. He did not, however, take the opportunity to elaborate on his reads or even bring in very much of the comments he made on the thread in his previous activity.
His next "big" post is his Osie post, which is very too-little-to-late for trying to swing the lynch, so it seems like something he posted because he had already put the work in:
So, faking a post restriction is NAI. So I don't care about that.
Osie first got on my radar with the vote on Voxx. It felt... off. Like he was just trying to do... something.
Osie's 118 is the next thing that bothered me. Its a train of thought post, Except some of the questions are meaningless (how much wood could a woodchuck chuck?)
The Reads list in 129 is another thing. Its full of weak townreads and fence sitting.Gives him the freedom to mostly go anywhere with his reads should he need to.
The whole post on Jenna seems ridiculous. IDK if Osie just didn't think that through, but what I (and now Vaimes) have alluded to is that the way she's doing this isn't something scum would necessarily do.
I pointed out 220. 200 posts into the game where quite a bit has happened and his best lynches are all based on his tinfoil worlds instead of ACTUAL things.
245, 277 are just barning Voxx. 277 in particular I'm annoyed he's not here to answer my question becuase it's very important.I need him to answer what behavior he objected to. It looks outwardly like he's just trying to copy Voxx with no reasons of his own.
The only thing thats giving me pause here (that I'm realizing right now) is that, ISOing him... nothing seems town.Like... nothing. Its all either superficial or scum.So. Shrug?
But all this stuff still adds up to scum, I think.
First, I am surprised he did not specifically deny my #296. He states he saw not reason to Townread Osie, but doesn't discuss my reasons for townreading Osie.
Second, note this readspost is very independent of the things he's been commented on. I believe Killjoy had mentioned 118 and 220 recently, but I'm not entirely sure (no post numbers in quotes). This is indicative - even Killjoy isn't particularly using his stream-of-conciousness style comments.
I do think this is still a Town Points Post (tm). It's just suppressed by the things I don't like and then killjoy's net is brought down by his other content.
#405 is then a return to stream-of-conciousness low impact-ism.
Like, you're literally calling questions relevent to, at the bare minimum, my mindset this game noise. That's jsut factually incorrect.
Now, critically thinking is a tangible thing that can be seen in mafia. It's a thing that scum don't really need to do as much as town. I also wasn't trying to 'convince anyone' that they were critically thinking. I was just pointing it out.
And I obviously disagreed with your 296 even if I didn't specifically say it.
It's late though and I'm tired, so I'll try and figure out if you're really tunneling town or fake tunneling scum at some point after I get sleep.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I'm coming around to the idea that Jenna is town. Liking her recent posts a lot more. Will try to digest Tau's wall on KJ. I'm still in glazing over it stage.
@Killjoy
If scumVoxx is real, claiming role blocked is a risk, but if it works, gives him a good chance to survive and do some damage. The payoff is more players rolling to his narrative, no longer seriously suspecting him at worst, and taking his opinions as gospel at best. If he solidifies even just two or three town reads on him, it works to buy him a few days/possible mislynches. It leaves him open to claim at a later date, and open to pushing fake news on the thread. While this is simply a theory of mine at this point, I want everyone to be aware of the possibilities and not fall prey to the gambit.
I'm coming around to the idea that Jenna is town. Liking her recent posts a lot more. Will try to digest Tau's wall on KJ. I'm still in glazing over it stage.
I think Reaverb has merit, and Killjoy's response is par. It's difficult to express my melancholy; I suppose "merely par" would work better.
It seems to me that the Empirical Evidence once rumored may soon come to light. I worry this is just a distraction, however, and those in the forefront should remain so. Killjoy will either pick up the quill, or resign to the crayon. Doting on his instrument is meaningless; clarity is inevitable.
Hey, I hope you can accept my apologies for missing EoD.
Sucks to lose Bear, now all my friends have been replaced. ;(
As previously requested by , here's an expansion of how I felt about Tubba. I've also added all content from him since then.
#47 - Irrelevant RVS, therefore it's ignored.
#95 - As I said before, this feels like a lame attempt at getting town-cred. It's such a meaningless post that tries to come across as if something of value is in it.
#99 - 100% fluff, which again attempted to come across as if there's value.
#104 - Unnecessary post. These try to promote the impression of activity when doing nothing at all.
#106 - I honestly don't know. Completely pointless though.
#107 - A weak attempt at a defence of #104.
#124 - No actual substance to the read.
#130 - An alarming amount of narration. Describing what has happened without actually giving any input on it is very scummy. The questions at Jenna are an attempt at interaction (however, see #140).
#131 - Pure narration. This is pointless fluff.
#136 - A very defensive post, that seems disproportionate to what has happened.
#140 - Having seen the answers the questions he asked, he has no opinion on it and asks for no clarification to clear up his lack of understanding.
#150 & #153 - Tau in #151 brings up a good point. If one is so conscious of waiting to vote and fully assessing the situation then why participate in RVS which completely contradicts this? I am a player that likes to think my vote matters. Therefore I am very careful about when I place it and why. If I had a strong scum-read which Tubba had I'd be voting on it instantly instead of deciding to "wait and see what else happened." (Also #140 is relevant to this)
The rest is after my post containing my initial read.
#160 - A complete lack of asking about the read, or trying to gain information of any sort. Just another fluff post.
#194 - Repetition, and it seems very early to be pushing a world on people.
#198 - He states towards me "your statement that you don't think I'm posting like mafia is somewhat troubling" when I've said his posts are a guide to how not to post as mafia. This means that he is very much posting like mafia. Tubba then goes on to say that I find him deceptively scummy, which is nothing close to what I have said. Also, I don't know about anyone else but I can read content as scummy without directly interacting.
#260 - Mostly a repetition post. A couple of names added to his scum-circle, but no actual substance.
#276 - If he's got not previous experience with Bear, why the RVS?
#279 - This feels like an empty question. It seems to me that there isn't actually anything of value that would come from it.
#292 - Where did my name go? If he's reading me in his "top three" as he previously mentioned, why am I no longer on the chopping block? This reads to me as him realising that he's not going to get any sort of traction on that particular mis-lynch so he's forgotten it. It was never actually a read.
#304 - More trying to push his world on others. Further pushing for others to provide content for him, as he is unable to do so alone.
#324, #326, #328, #337 - No content here. There's no strong attempt to push the lynch through too. This is his number one scum and she might not get lynched. Where's the passion?
I believe that Tubba Fett has provided a clear history of defensive and tunneling posts which have provided little, if any value.
Upon lining up all of his "content" together, I do not see how Tubba can be town.
Shadow/Voxx should still explain their scumreads on me, and their EoD behavior in general. Right now I'm thinking one or both might be scum with DoTA and intentionally used the Bear wagon to redirect away from DoTA. Particularly weird is shadow talking about how terrible the EoD chaos was when he was a major cause of it.
If you have an outstanding question, I will mention when I've caught up so you know if I've genuinely missed it.
Shadow/Voxx should still explain their scumreads on me, and their EoD behavior in general. Right now I'm thinking one or both might be scum with DoTA and intentionally used the Bear wagon to redirect away from DoTA. Particularly weird is shadow talking about how terrible the EoD chaos was when he was a major cause of it.
If you have an outstanding question, I will mention when I've caught up so you know if I've genuinely missed it.
Vote: Killjoy
The end of day chaos was great, my comment was that the day as a whole was bad.
Vote Reaverb
Your suspicion of me/Voxx as a team is laughably ridiculous and just not a thought I believe you would have as town; annnnnnd then voting a person you haven't even mentioned in this post after spouting 3 other people you think are scum? Nope.
This is just sad. You can do better than that scummy twisted presentation of things.
~~~~~~~~~~
Here's a list of questions that you have evaded or not answered at all over the course of the game. I'm not holding out hope, but maybe you can provide solid answers to even one of them.
Perhaps I have played mafia before. Or I have played it in the future. Perhaps this is my first game of this sort while communicating on a message board and not in real life. It is also likely that I browsed the other mafia games going on and thought, "yes JT, this looks like A Thing You Could Do."
What empirical evidence makes or made Vaimes more likely to be a member of the mafia than any other player, give others players have not posted at all?
I believe I made it clear that the empirical evidence, to use your emphasis, exists in the future. The current existence is simply Words On A Screen that evoke distrust. Unless, you are suggesting I express personal reasons outside of my Words On A Screen, in which I must respectfully decline. I don't feel it is acceptable to ask anyone for... Words Beyond A Screen.
Your question implies that the answer should be the opposite of what you expect me to say. I think you are smarter than that and do not need An Explanation For Your Actions. Your question is simultaneously answered and not answered in no temporal manner.
2. Could you please expound on where you're coming from on the following quotes?
King Torg is someone I wouldn't trust with a secret.
Unless, you are suggesting I express personal reasons outside of my Words On A Screen, in which I must respectfully decline. I don't feel it is acceptable to ask anyone for... Words Beyond A Screen.
@Jenna Tolaria: No comprehension of perception of cautionary response? Hmph. Either you're audacious, feckless, or naive. I'm inclined to the second, but willing to consider the first. I really hope it's not the last. If it's the first, good luck with that. Second, why? Do you have that much confidence? Last, that's unfortunate.
Jenna-
I like #73's point on DoTA which I didn't notice until they pointed it out and I don't think #103 is likely to come from scum (Either Vox is co-aligned scum or known Town pushing "one of the dudes on this wagon is scum" and instead of trying to doubtcast their wagon-mates they try to dispel the entire motion) I am a bit concerned about their question dodging (which I was intentionally not bringing up until Osie mentioned it).
#76 (which I'm assuming is what you meant) is good, but could just as easily come from scum.
#103 is completely NAI to me.
Why are you not paying attention to Jenna's question dodging? It's extremely blatant and extremely scummy.
This is a good post and the big bolded question still needs to be answered. Why is Jenna town? I see nothing suggesting she is. I get that there isn't a ton to suggest she isn't either though. But as was pointed out eloquently mafia is a team game and it's hard to win if people are obfuscating their opinions. I tend to assume malevolence when that happens. Though toDay has been a bit better. I actually like 366 even if it's still hard to decipher.
I'm going to throw down where I'm at. If I get your gender wrong I'm sorry, I'm just typing instinctively and I have no idea who any of you are (apart from the Bear).
The most important thing I think town should know about me is that I am an emotional player and tend to trust my feelings and instinct more than actual content, but only if those feelings are especially strong. Also, this doesn't mean I don't take note of content because I do. I'll to give a loose example; if I have a strong feeling that someone is mafia, they'll have to produce more substantial content from a town perspective than someone who I have no strong feelings about in order for me to read them town. Of course the opposite applies too.
Reaverb Tau;
I still have issues with the opening, but I've been over that in a previous post so I'm not going to push this point further at this stage.
The rest of the content has a town tone to it, and there's a few good points in his push on Tubba (which holds a lot more weight if osie is town), and his round-up of the game so far is pretty good I think.
shadowlancerx;
Upon re-reading I've flipped on him. I read his opening town. It seems natural and uninhibited. It's looking like he's eager to get in to the game and get actual information flowing.
I don't really have anything to add to this. The rest of his posts I'm getting a slightly town tone read, but nothing is jumping out as either alignment.
Vaimes;
Now this is an opening that I don't like. The interaction with Voxx comes across as someone trying too hard to blend in. The short posts of no actual value in quick succession is creating the illusion of content. The interaction with shadow is one that doesn't leave a good taste in my mouth either, shadow's looking for a more in depth answer to his question and isn't too happy with what he's given on the first two attempts. His post reads that he is begrudgingly accepting that he's getting nothing more, and then Vaimes elaborates. I feel that going out of the way to appease shadow after twice before not bothering is scummy. It's like Vaimes suddenly realised that there might be some sort of consequence for this exchange. This was followed up by an attempt to poke back which was limp at best. I'll point out again, that I have flipped my opinion on the opening since my initial post about it.
I'm partially going to trust Bear's read for now. I don't usually do this, but there are other people I'm town-reading that seem to be rading Vaimes town too.
osieorb:
Jumping back on to the shadow wagon for flimsy reasoning made me think that osie's thought proess was something along the lines of "Yey, now I have a reason to vote for the wagon leader." which is not good. The coming off looks like an attempt to be townie rather than genuine.
Switching the gimmick didn't seem natural to me. Why do it? If you're not happy with the first gimmick then drop it and play. It's not helpful to bounce around attempting to be funny.
There's a growing pattern of addressing the flimsiest things in the thread and responding to them rather than actually engaging in the content.
Then along comes some actual content leaving me unsure on exactly what to think about her. It's frustrating. The later the posts, the more I like her though. The teardown of Jenna provides a lot of substantial evidence that I'm waiting to see a response to. If I was to ignore the first half of the game she's one of my top towns.
Voxxicus:
There are no specific moments, but the in the first 70 posts or so I feel really comfortable with Voxx. He just feels safe to me.
I do like him questioning the shadow wagon, and the thought process in his post about Vaimes seems pure. It's not my interpretation, but I have no history to go off and these two clearly do.
Jenna Tolaria:
I like that she poked at my opening. It was devoid of substance and just a bit of RP fun. It's also done in a very townie way maybe, there's no real pressure there, but she wants to make sure that it's out there to be seen?
The random capitalisation really puts me off. I can't tell how much that's affecting my read. I'm not sure her logic and pushes are all that consistent though. There's been a fair bit of evasive behaviour too. Some of which osie pointed out.
DoTArchon:
DoT is the opposite situation to Voxx for me. The posts I read make me uncomfortable, and he's someone I want to stay away from.
The switching to osie after others have questioned her behaviour is scummy too. Why not bring that up earlier? This looks like some who's jumping on to town to be part of something wholesome.
Tubba Fett:
I don't like the asking about the expected number of mafia. It feels like a question a mafia would ask in an attempt at getting some town credit.
Going on from that, Tubba's posts are pretty much a guide to how not to post as mafia. This is especially clear in the poor response to RT and osie throwing some pressure on him.
King Torg:
I really don't like people claiming mafia.
That's all I have. What have you actually done?
A Bear:
The first content post is really good. It's a thought process that is agreeing with a lot of what I have. She's pointing out the right things in the right way and then adding on some local knowledge. Speaking of which, here's some from me. Bear wants me to play this game and is trying to constructively poke me and get me to interact more. As a wolf she has no real advantage in doing so (apart from trying to get me onside, but who cares about me?).
Killjoy:
Flattery will get you everywhere. Seriously though, it was a good entrance showing the thought process as he reads though the thread.
To be perfectly honest I'm so emotional on this one because I lost Empoof and that's all I can think about when I see Killjoy. "You're not Empoof"
To summarise;
Townsfolk; Colin, Reaverb Tau, A Bear
Living in the outskirts; Vaimes, osieorb, Voxxicus, Killjoy
Just visiting; shadowlancerx, King Torg
Banished; Jenna Tolaria, DoTArchon, Tubba Fett
If that is not a town post I don't know what is. I don't agree with the reads (I like Tubba!) but I like the process even if it feels a bit biased towards those Colin is familiar with.
@Killjoy I've played a couple dozen games I think? I've never actually counted.
Why do you think that one post is enough to read Vox? Is it some sort of meta read?
What was your criteria for picking the particular posts you did to respond to on your catch-up?
Re: Voxx: It's... kind of a meta read, I guess? I mean it's not so much something I have personally observed and found for myself through experience, but more through repuation. What I know about Voxx is: he HATES being mafia, because there's no puzzle to solve. Nothing he likes to do can happen when he's mafia. It's just so boring.
It was actually two posts that put me at that conclusion. The initial vote on Shadow (Wagons!) was one, combined with the quoted post led me to see a mindset where A)he is having fun and B)is trying to solve the puzzle only available as town.
Re: criteria: My process is basically read the thread, then when I have a question or relevent thought I quote and post. Some long posts I skim becuase those just become quotewalls (which I don't usually wanna deal with right then) so I don't usually do anything with them.
The idea of you participating in RVS at all is weird if you really love waiting to vote as much as you claim.
I think DotA is the most likely scum on the wagon right now.
Hm. Explain your thinking here.
Your Voxx conclusions are totally off. Your premises aren't wrong, but despite claiming to strongly dislike scum he's historically been very good at it. A couple years back I recall him claiming to never had been lynched as scum without a mechanical guilty across dozens of scum games.
Tubba has state they like waiting to vote as Town, which implies they do not agree with the normal evaluation Town should change their vote quite often, and having a vote down is always correct. However, he still participates in RVS, which is just this evaluation pushed to extreme due to extreme lack of info at the beginning of the game. This is inconsistent.
@A Bear Torg was/is in the "needs to post more nulls"
Tau's posts make my eyes glaze completely over. I tried to read this like 5 times and could not get through it. Note to self to ISO Tau at some point soon. Maybe removing context will help.
The biggest problem I have with a Dota wagon is that lynching him always feels like pulling the lever on a slot machine and hoping for the best.
I'm not actually sure if I've played many games with him, but I've followed along with several where he's been lynched early and I shrugged like 'Could be a wolf I guess?'
Sometimes he's even a wolf, but there's been a lot of mislynches too.
I have literally zero reason to think he's town, possibly beyond the fact that no one is defending him - but I'm not sure it's even possible for his buddies to actually defend him beyond chainsawing him by pushing something /else/.
It's a lynch I'd really like to deny the wolves if he's a villager, but need him to actually post, because right now I think I kind of shrug accept the lynch.
If Dota were to flip scum I'd want to look closely at Voxx given he was a huge part of the CFD onto Osie over Dota. That said I don't think scum often makes this sort of argument when white knighting. This is a scum+ post for Voxx if Dota flips scum and a town+ post in a vacuum.
Anyway reads:
Town
Colin
Tubba
Voxx
Shadow/Tau/KJ
Jenna
Dota
Scum
Biggest problems I have is I have no opinion on Tau or KJ and need to resolve that and my top two scum reads are close to mutually exclusive.
Ugh. So many words to read, and so little time. I'm just gonna start with my T/S list and work from there.
King Torg
Tau
Killjoy
Shadow
A Bear
Colin
Tubba Fett
DoTA
Jenna Tolaria
(specific order doesn't matter, just the tiers)
Vote: Jenna Tolaria
Jenna has consistently been cryptic and nonproductive with their posts. It seems like their posts are being purposely confusing with the phrasing, abbreviations, and quoting methods. All in all, it just seems like really scummy behavior.
Six days transpired; six days remain; six votes required; four here without a public record:
Archon
Tubba
Killjoy
Voxxicus
With Archon among the unvoted, nobody can reach six votes. I would move my vote only to Colin or Torg, neither of which could reach 6 without another mover.
This all presupposes that my intent when I was making this post was to give the thread insight into my slots state of mind. Like, you seem to think that... when I was making the post, the thoughts running through my head should have been relating to the concequences of my post... which is a scum mentality. You're presupposing I'm scum and going from there. You're tunneling. Try to look at these things objectively. It's hard to take you seriously while you're thinking like this about me.
Your counterargument strikes me as nonsensical I'm going to skip that for now because I think this next question will clear that up too:
What was your intent when making #142 and your content up to (not including) #286?
Like, you're literally calling questions relevent to, at the bare minimum, my mindset this game noise. That's jsut factually incorrect.
Tell me what you got out of some of the questions in #142, or some other post of yours before #286. I have a hard time believing you got anything meaningful out of it.
Ugh. So many words to read, and so little time. I'm just gonna start with my T/S list and work from there.
King Torg
Tau
Killjoy
Shadow
A Bear
Colin
Tubba Fett
DoTA
Jenna Tolaria
(specific order doesn't matter, just the tiers)
Vote: Jenna Tolaria
Jenna has consistently been cryptic and nonproductive with their posts. It seems like their posts are being purposely confusing with the phrasing, abbreviations, and quoting methods. All in all, it just seems like really scummy behavior.
I'll elaborate more later.
I'm going to need this promised elaboration. While Jenna is obfuscating a bit she has been going out of her way to post who she wants dead even if the reasoning isn't always clear at first glance. And given her propensity to repeat and use different wordings I'm seeing an effort to attempt to get people to understand.
The main reason I'm quoting this post though is that he's voting someone entirely for their play style when he has someone that is an equal scum read (dota) while not explaining his read there at all. Why vote Jenna over Dota if the Jenna read is entirely about her admittedly hard to grok playstyle?
@Killjoy
If scumVoxx is real, claiming role blocked is a risk, but if it works, gives him a good chance to survive and do some damage. The payoff is more players rolling to his narrative, no longer seriously suspecting him at worst, and taking his opinions as gospel at best. If he solidifies even just two or three town reads on him, it works to buy him a few days/possible mislynches. It leaves him open to claim at a later date, and open to pushing fake news on the thread. While this is simply a theory of mine at this point, I want everyone to be aware of the possibilities and not fall prey to the gambit.
I mean, I empathize with the tinfoiling. But I can't imagine scum!Voxx thinks he can last past d4 at the latest? He's just one of those people who are too good NOT to have nightkilled by then.
Your counterargument strikes me as nonsensical I'm going to skip that for now because I think this next question will clear that up too:
What was your intent when making #142 and your content up to (not including) #286?
Tell me what you got out of some of the questions in #142, or some other post of yours before #286. I have a hard time believing you got anything meaningful out of it.
I've never seen anybody in a debate give their piece while /completely ignoring/ the opposing arguments. It strikes me as fake.
My argument is not nonsensical. Part of your premise seems to be that you, when making that opening post, I should have been considering how it would help town. You said as much when you said that "what I said was not particularly +EV town". The intention of the post was not to directly benefit town. It was to guage people's answers and see if I can figure out where they were coming from.
Also, we weren't debating Osie's alignment. Like, you and I were not. My intention there was just to present what I was thinking on Osie. Your opinion on his play was wrong, and therefore did not enter into my case.
I will obviously not do every quote, but here's some expansion on some things.
142: To Vaimes:Why did you ask this? What was it's purpose?
You correctly noted that I didn't follow up here. That's because fairly shortly after I asked it, I had decided to trust Voxx that Vaimes was town... so there really was no hurry to get the answer. Then he died.
To Osie:I'm mildly confused by this. Cuddly Teddy seems like you think he's pulling punches or something (possibly with regard to Voxx, or the whole game in general?), Bear Liposting seems like you're saying he's not posting a lot (maybe you think he should be posting more?), and Trample and the flavor text seems like you think he's usually very aggressive.
Basically, I'm asking if this means you think he's normally more agressive and posts a bunch, but he's not doing that this game? Is that interpretation correct?
So here I was asking for clarification on Osie's Vaimes, Cuddly Teddy card because it seemed he was stating an opinion on Vaimes in joke form, which could have been scum!Osie trying to smear Vaimes without people taking it too seriously from him, so I asked for clarification.
To Voxx:This HAS to be a meta read, which prompts my question: How confident are you?
And with regards to the "people scumreading you" thing, how do you feel about Osie?
This was part of me trying to decide to trust Voxx's read on Vaimes. Those reasons are the kind of reasons one might state if they have a good idea of what goes on in a person's head. So I asked how confident he was on it, to decide if I should trust it or not. His Vaimes backstory post is one I took to be response to this question, and to mean 'pretty confident'.
To King TorgHm.
KT, explain what you think scum!DoTa is thinking when making this post?
I was trying to get him to think it through, and show me where his mind ends up there. Like, draw me a line using his brain from that post to scum!DotA.
To DotAHm. Explain why this is more than semantics, please. Why does this come from scum vs. town?
This it appears I just misunderstood. It seemed that DotA was implying that he thought shadow's word choice was alignment indicative and more significant than just semantics.
To JennaHm. Do you have opinions on Osie's alignment right now? If so, what is it? Nevermind, just read 127. So I'll change the question to: given his behavior, who is his most likely scumbuddy and why?
This was me scumreading Osie and wanting the cryptic Jenna to comment on my scumread. I wanted to see if our minds were melding there, or what she was thinking in general.
186: To King TorgNeat.
What do you think of Osie? And... lets say Voxx? What about him?
Here's my followup to my post to KT in the last one.His answer was just a noob answer. Like, in reality, scum don't do that but his mafia theory wasn't very fleshed out... not really alignment indicative IMO.
Then I decided to try and ask his opinions on my top scumread and my top townread, to see where his head is at. Maybe if I don't focus on mafia theory, I can maybe figure out his alignment another way.
To DotA:I might not have been clear. I was referring to 52->shadow being about semantics. You say he's cocky. Why does that mean anything?
Also, in rereading the above quote, and your ISO, I have another question for you: Can you explain the mindset about #57? What were you thinking when you posted it, what you were looking for in an answer, etc.
So I futher clarify my "is this more than jsut semantics" and then ask him about his respose to Jenna's blind vote on Shadow which was something like "is that all?" which I felt was oddly worded for town. Like, town would ask for someone to expand on a thought... but my initial thought of it was "Is DotA trying to notify his scumbuddy Jenna that she needs to expand or else she'll look scummy". So I asked for his mindset while posting, which he later gave and unfortunately it wasn't really alignment indicative like I'd hoped it would be.
To Colin:Ignoring Bear/other townread's townread of Vaimes, is he scum? Everything before the last sentence seems like you're suspicious of him then you default to town because other people. Explain please.
This is in respose to his Vaimes read which is a lot of 'I don't like this, this, this, this, this or this. But Bear is townreading him, so I'm trusting that'. which... doesn't tell me anything about how he is actually reading Vaimes. So, I asked for expansion on that thought.
To Colin:This seems... flimsy. Asking how many mafia isn't very substancial. Expand on which of Tubbas posts are "a guide how not to play as mafia"?
This is questioning the hyperboly of "Tubba's guide how not to play as mafia" which I wasn't seeing THAT level of scumminess from Tubba (or actually not really at all but specifically I was having trouble seeing how he was scumreading him that hard since we were reading the same posts and he wasn't coming off nearly that bad to me)
To Colin:I'm also slightly confused here. Like, Reaverb, you say you still have issues with his opening, and other than that he's town... but he's in your Town section. Shadow reads like you're fully townreading him, but he's in your "Just visiting" seciton (which I interpret as "barely leaning town"). Vaimes I've addressed, but what doesn't make sense is he's higher on the list than people like shadow (who it looks like you're townreading hard). Osie is also higher than shadow, after all you've said about him.
This was my asking him to clarify his reads list ordering, since it didn't seem to mesh with his descriptions from earlier in the post.
He's explained, and it still seems off, but that's where I was going with it when I asked.
Ok, I did basically two full posts. If there's something specific you'd like me to expand on from and post after that, let me know.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I'm coming around to Jenna being town, I'm not seeing a lot of signs that she's actively trying to push a narrative or anything. She seems engaged and interested in figuring things out.
On Reaverb (the things that pinged scum):
-His first two posts were dodgy, over explaining an RVS vote to be max. He follows up that he did so as to avoid sounding insulting, which could be true.
-He continues with a vote on Dota, but part of the reasoning was specifically criticizing him for his RVS vote of me, which was pretty clearly RVS.
-Post 70 he asks Jenna for "empirical evidence" on her scum read of Vaimes. I don't know what empirical evidence you expect anyone to have on day one, so to demand it looked bad.
-Post 148 is coaching on King Torg, slight buddy pings for it.
-Post 215 is a vote on KJ when his logic implied a better chance for Colin to be scum. Like I'm not sure why he didn't vote KJ earlier and then post his criticisms of Colin. He later goes over his logic a little deeper but I'm somewhat suspicious that he's being a little revisionist.
I'm going to stop here because I'm tired, I've been mostly skimming anyway, and I've covered some of the more recent stuff.
@All: if you are not voting then you need to get in here and vote. If you believe you're voting for the most likely scum, then make that case. Let's get some content in here before it goes down to the wire.
I'm going to throw down where I'm at. If I get your gender wrong I'm sorry, I'm just typing instinctively and I have no idea who any of you are (apart from the Bear).
The most important thing I think town should know about me is that I am an emotional player and tend to trust my feelings and instinct more than actual content, but only if those feelings are especially strong. Also, this doesn't mean I don't take note of content because I do. I'll to give a loose example; if I have a strong feeling that someone is mafia, they'll have to produce more substantial content from a town perspective than someone who I have no strong feelings about in order for me to read them town. Of course the opposite applies too.
Tubba completely avoiding addressing my post is pretty bonkers considering the other engagement he's shown.
Junna's continued evasiveness (which was brought up on day one by me and others) and misinformation has pretty much hit breaking point for me. I'd be happy to lynch her today if Tubba doesn't get traction (or if he preforms a miracle).
I just don't see the benefit in doing any heavy lifting to change your opinion of me. Your read is wrong, and that's all there is to it. My play style doesn't match up with your expectations. I'm ok with it. Since that's a non-starter, I'm not going to say anything else about it.
I think your off on Jenna as well. While her posts are certainly cryptic at first glance, imo she's not spreading misinformation nor being especially evasive. I was frustrated by the posting style as well, but would scum really draw such negative attention? That's a hell of a gambit.
Speaking of gambits, I can't help but be suspicious of Voxx right now. He's perfectly suited to take a chance on a Hail Mary after banking town cred on the Vaimes read of him.
That's a post series that muddles the game as opposed to helping solve it. Town chases its tail trying to figure out how scum knows where the power is, we give Voxx more town cred as town power, but we don't actually gain any information.
This assumes scumVoxx is real, of course. That's something I want to hear opinions on.
That's not a great stance to have. Instead of explaining your actions you're deflecting.
I stand by bringing attention towards Jenna today. I think it was a good place to go and the fact that she engages more than most others in the thread means that it should provide benefit for town regardless of her alignment.
@Killjoy
If scumVoxx is real, claiming role blocked is a risk, but if it works, gives him a good chance to survive and do some damage. The payoff is more players rolling to his narrative, no longer seriously suspecting him at worst, and taking his opinions as gospel at best. If he solidifies even just two or three town reads on him, it works to buy him a few days/possible mislynches. It leaves him open to claim at a later date, and open to pushing fake news on the thread. While this is simply a theory of mine at this point, I want everyone to be aware of the possibilities and not fall prey to the gambit.
Your suspicion of Voxx has been something I've liked today. As I previously indicated (#360), I am not a fan of revealing that information (assuming it's true). I've been considering the options and instinctively it read more like a town who's posted and then sloppily tried to cover it instead of saying they acted rashly. Upon my first read I was influence by how I felt about Voxx day 1, of course. There was certainly an aura of suspicion around him because of that. The further posts by Voxx today are a poor showing too. I'm definitely at the point where I'm largely uneasy about him.
@Killjoy
If scumVoxx is real, claiming role blocked is a risk, but if it works, gives him a good chance to survive and do some damage. The payoff is more players rolling to his narrative, no longer seriously suspecting him at worst, and taking his opinions as gospel at best. If he solidifies even just two or three town reads on him, it works to buy him a few days/possible mislynches. It leaves him open to claim at a later date, and open to pushing fake news on the thread. While this is simply a theory of mine at this point, I want everyone to be aware of the possibilities and not fall prey to the gambit.
I mean, I empathize with the tinfoiling. But I can't imagine scum!Voxx thinks he can last past d4 at the latest? He's just one of those people who are too good NOT to have nightkilled by then.
By that logic, scumVoxx not playing with an alt is pointless. Besides that, if he gets his team ahead prior to his d4 deadline, he's doing his job.
[quote from="Colin »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/783914-it-was-a-dark-and-stormy-night-day-2-hearts-on?comment=158"]WTF? Two day extension.
I'm going to throw down where I'm at. If I get your gender wrong I'm sorry, I'm just typing instinctively and I have no idea who any of you are (apart from the Bear).
The most important thing I think town should know about me is that I am an emotional player and tend to trust my feelings and instinct more than actual content, but only if those feelings are especially strong. Also, this doesn't mean I don't take note of content because I do. I'll to give a loose example; if I have a strong feeling that someone is mafia, they'll have to produce more substantial content from a town perspective than someone who I have no strong feelings about in order for me to read them town. Of course the opposite applies too.
Tubba completely avoiding addressing my post is pretty bonkers considering the other engagement he's shown.
Junna's continued evasiveness (which was brought up on day one by me and others) and misinformation has pretty much hit breaking point for me. I'd be happy to lynch her today if Tubba doesn't get traction (or if he preforms a miracle).
I just don't see the benefit in doing any heavy lifting to change your opinion of me. Your read is wrong, and that's all there is to it. My play style doesn't match up with your expectations. I'm ok with it. Since that's a non-starter, I'm not going to say anything else about it.
Well I guess I could waste my time debating your reads, but there's no value in that line of play. If I somehow convince you, you don't vote me. The games not about me, or you. That solves very little of the game, basically my alignment and that's it. I know my alignment, it's just not useful. I'm sorry but that's all I've got. Engage me on solving the game, or try and vote me off.
@Killjoy
If scumVoxx is real, claiming role blocked is a risk, but if it works, gives him a good chance to survive and do some damage. The payoff is more players rolling to his narrative, no longer seriously suspecting him at worst, and taking his opinions as gospel at best. If he solidifies even just two or three town reads on him, it works to buy him a few days/possible mislynches. It leaves him open to claim at a later date, and open to pushing fake news on the thread. While this is simply a theory of mine at this point, I want everyone to be aware of the possibilities and not fall prey to the gambit.
I mean, I empathize with the tinfoiling. But I can't imagine scum!Voxx thinks he can last past d4 at the latest? He's just one of those people who are too good NOT to have nightkilled by then.
By that logic, scumVoxx not playing with an alt is pointless. Besides that, if he gets his team ahead prior to his d4 deadline, he's doing his job.
I'm saying he would be playing with the expectation of getting lynched at some point. I feel like scum!Voxx doesn't put unnecessary info into the thread with that in mind.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
The question nobody needs answered, for we know it already.
I don't know the answer. Is there somewhere Torg expands on it that I missed?
What question are we talking about?
I assume it was my question to king torg about why he's voting Jenna for non gameplay reasons while carrying a scum read on Dota at the same time. Purely playstyle seems like it should be trumped by a textual scum read.
Everyone. One of the best things scum had going for us last game was town's hesitance to communicate. The more people get engaged the easier it will be to find the people hiding things.
I know you said you thought this all the way through, but still... from the limited perspective of a lone townie... you can't have had enough info to make an adequately informed decision.
I mean... did you say this JUST to add that bit at the end telling people to wifom between you and their second towniest? This is annoyingly shortsighted.
Hm. I can see the logic behind this, and think Voxx's version is more accurate.
It does prompt a question though.
@Shadow Your conclusion is that there is scum in two groups, and a third group that contains one person (ergo, he is scum). If Bear is for sure scum from your analysis, why didn't you vote him?
I mean... that can be your opinion, I guess. But it feels like you're nitpicking too. Like, You seem to be scumreading me for not playing the game the same way as you do. There are multiple ways to scumhunt. Not everyone does it the same way.
You say here "my content up till my reads post was scummy" for the reasons you gave. Does that mean you didn't think my reads post was? What did you think of it? What did it tell you about me, and where my head is at?
Its not really rude to ask here. Obviously you shouldn't necessarily expect it IMMEDIATELY but its not unreasonable to ask, no.
Can you exand on this? Why are each of these people scummy?
Also, how can they all be scummy AND unaligned? That doesn't make sense.
Why does Tubba get town points for effectively saying "I'll remember this later"?
I'd love to see you expand on this with examples. All I'm seeing from him right now is him tunnelling on me.
This isn't really alignment indicative. There are a lot of things that influcence how a person plays a game: gameflow, which players are present, the resulting game FEEL based on who's there, what arguments they're making etc, and of course alignment.
Basically I don't think that"they're different than that other game" is a good metric for alignment. I've actually gotten burned by this once. I can't reemmeber the dudes name though. He was in the most recent uPick... name started with a D. Neat fantasyesque name.
I'm interpreting this as you now townreading me... for trying to interpret your posts? Is that right?
So, you're perplexed by those who vouch for Bear.You're scumreading him, and don't understand why people aren't... right?
I'm guessing your read on Shadow is based on your experience with him?
And you're scumreading Torg.
Why DotA over Torg then? If you're so sure, why not push Torg over DotA?
Torg/tubba unaligned.
But... I have to assume you mean Torg is the one who fears, and tubba is the one who yearns. Otherwise your scumread wouldn't make sense.
So, townreading Tubba, scumreading torg.
If you're townreading tubba, what do you think of Colin/his case on Tubba?
This is, I believe, the second person to ask for this. I'll be a third, if it helps.
Read list plz, DotA.
You had one more for me about wanting some examples from Reaverb's iso of his scumminess, which I'll get for you probably tomorrow, out of time right now.
Killjoy, oh Killjoy. You are right about yourself, and Torg, and Tubba, but BearFruit you are mistaken. It is he who I trust, and yet others do not, quite strongly near the end of yesterday.
Archon is the original Kismet. May he be first, or second to Torg, it matters not. If they could be Disposed Of simultaneously, I would wish it.
It brings me joy and freedom to write to you, Killjoy. No one here has arrived as you have, though Tubba nears. Greet him fondly when you see him.
Your names are silly.
I'm actually in the process of looking deeper into Killjoy at the moment. I'm not sure whether I'll get it up today or tomorrow as my schedule has gone a little haywire this weekend.
Junna's continued evasiveness (which was brought up on day one by me and others) and misinformation has pretty much hit breaking point for me. I'd be happy to lynch her today if Tubba doesn't get traction (or if he preforms a miracle).
I just don't see the benefit in doing any heavy lifting to change your opinion of me. Your read is wrong, and that's all there is to it. My play style doesn't match up with your expectations. I'm ok with it. Since that's a non-starter, I'm not going to say anything else about it.
I think your off on Jenna as well. While her posts are certainly cryptic at first glance, imo she's not spreading misinformation nor being especially evasive. I was frustrated by the posting style as well, but would scum really draw such negative attention? That's a hell of a gambit.
Speaking of gambits, I can't help but be suspicious of Voxx right now. He's perfectly suited to take a chance on a Hail Mary after banking town cred on the Vaimes read of him.
That's a post series that muddles the game as opposed to helping solve it. Town chases its tail trying to figure out how scum knows where the power is, we give Voxx more town cred as town power, but we don't actually gain any information.
This assumes scumVoxx is real, of course. That's something I want to hear opinions on.
01. TubbaFett - The puzzle gold medalist..
03. Voxxicus - Nocturnal victim already trusted.
07. shadowlancerx - Doubtlessly respected.
08. Jenna Tolaria - Jaded.
10. Killjoy r. Empoof - My tuxedo mask.
04. Reaverb Tau - Oft seen, yet topics unremarkable.
05. Grapefruit21 r. A Bear - Perhaps I should have listened to me of past future. I will observe the new shell.
02. DoTArchon - The transdimensional nightmare.
06. King Torg - The unthinker.
09. Colin - The untrustable. Comments toward Bear, Tubba, and myself defy reality. Queued for disposal.
Picturesque.
He wants to look Town more than he actually wants to help Town.
I want to bring up #142 and #186 again.
I've said in the past they're bringing up old posts just to look Town and not actually trying to solve the game. Let's dissect #142.
It's composed of 13 posts and response by Killjoy. Coloring to be explained later. In order:
Quote 1 - Vaimes - A question to Vaimes Killjoy never follows up on.
Quote 2 - Voxxicus - Vox townread based on a single post
Quote 3 - Osie - Asks about Vaimes meta
Quote 4 - Colin - compliments Colin's joke post
Quote 5 - King Torg - compliments Torg's joke post
Quote 6 - Reaverb Tau (myself) - Killjoy states they are townreading Shadow for "town vibes"
Quote 7 - Osie - States they don't like Osie's Voxx vote. They give no reasons for not liking the vote, and do not say how much that makes them think Osie is scum
Quote 8 - Shadow - Tries to establish Voxx-shadow meta relationship
Quote 9 - Voxx - States that DotA and Osie are anti-aligned with Shadow, and there was probably a scum on the Shadow wagon
Quote 10 - Voxx - Asks how confident Voxx is in their Vaimes read, and asks for Voxx's Osie read
Quote 11 - King Torg - Asks King Torg what they think is the motivation for a DoTA post given DoTA is scum
Quote 12 - DoTA - asks about more information of why DoTA thinks Shadow's phrasing when talking about the lynch is seems scummy.
Quote 13 - Jenna - asks Jenna who the most likely scumbuddy of Osie is.
Post ends with Killjoy voting Osie
First note he didn't actually say that all much, it looks like a big wall of text with the quotes but it's a couple paragraphs with long explanations.
Second, what he did say was not particularly +EV Town. Brown are things which are clearly not helpful. Orangish-yellow are questions that are somewhat helpful but clarify things which would likely be cleared up if they ever became relevant. Purple are reads which have little justification and don't commit to anything - Killjoy is free to walk them back at any time, and they cannot be challenged by players who think they are wrong because there's no clear premises and chain of logic. The Red comment repeats ideas already well established in-thread. Blue is a couple questions I just think are weak and establish minutiae not particularly relevant to discussion - nobody is seriously going to lynch Shadow based on just some poor wording.
To be continued tomorrow.
-Town-
Voxx, Killjoy
Voxx has been my top town read for the reasons I mentioned earlier for quite a while now. I've read Reverb's post on why he thinks KJ is scum but I don't read KJ the same. His approach to this game has not looked like a scum approach to me.
-Lean Town-
Shadow, Colin, Jenna, Reverb
There's a lot of reasons why this block contains so many players, but the primary is that I don't see anything that stands out as off with any of them. Jenna is the exception here, I'm not going to bother trying any more with her. The only reason I'm leaning town on her is that I can't imagine scum would go through this much effort to stand out. That and the Shadow vote that put him at L-2. Almost a case of too scum to be scum.
-Null and below-
Tubba, Torg, Grapefruit
I'll admit, Tubba and Torg are two players I need to reread. In my last reads list I mentioned not really liking either of them but things have happened since then.
Grapefruit is in this grouping because a)Vaimes and Voxx had both gone after Bear during Day 1 and b) there's something odd I picked up on in day one in one of Bears posts that I can no longer ask about, but it makes me want to keep an eye on how Grape progresses.
The
^^^^^
#186 is very similar to #142 in style, it also has lots of noise and little signal. Not going to break it down like #142 unless somebody wants me to, but the only good thing in the post is his read on Voxx (which is a towntell, building a read on a false premise so you can undermine it later when convenient is a theoretically good scum strategy but I've never actually seen somebody do it).
#223 is very similar to #142 and #186, although it also adds asking me a bunch of questions for scumreading him, which is something I didn't notice earlier.
He continues the pattern of noise-without-activity until #286 (once again I can break down any singe specific post but if I tried to dissect his entire ISO I'd be here for hours). In reaction to my noise-without-signal read, he posts a readsposts.
Readsposts aren't always good, but one thing they are very good is forcing players to draw conclusions. Killjoy's only clear positions before #286 were Voxx!Town, Osie!scum and hesitatingly scumreading DoTA and myself based on a specific response to a question. he didn't draw any line with the other players - just did snapshot reads that could be remixed or dismissed later.
#286:
This makes me feel slightly worse about scumreading Killjoy but it's not strong. All the underlines are places he keeps using weasel words that don't actually mean anything. "Critically thinking" isn't something verifiable. I think a Townie would be more likely to say something along the lines of "..though process on X and Y is critically thinking because Z and W etc." Flatly asserting somebody is "critically thinking" is not going to convince anybody of that fact. Bold is things already stated in thread.
I do like that he specifically ranked players. That is at the very least something we can cross-reference later and does fit with his stated views of the gamestate. He did not, however, take the opportunity to elaborate on his reads or even bring in very much of the comments he made on the thread in his previous activity.
His next "big" post is his Osie post, which is very too-little-to-late for trying to swing the lynch, so it seems like something he posted because he had already put the work in:
First, I am surprised he did not specifically deny my #296. He states he saw not reason to Townread Osie, but doesn't discuss my reasons for townreading Osie.
Second, note this readspost is very independent of the things he's been commented on. I believe Killjoy had mentioned 118 and 220 recently, but I'm not entirely sure (no post numbers in quotes). This is indicative - even Killjoy isn't particularly using his stream-of-conciousness style comments.
I do think this is still a Town Points Post (tm). It's just suppressed by the things I don't like and then killjoy's net is brought down by his other content.
#405 is then a return to stream-of-conciousness low impact-ism.
---------
@Voxx Can you talk more about your townread on Killjoy and the case here?
2) I hate getting pushed for all the same reasons Voxx does, plus I actually get mislynched occasionally so it's even worse.
Did you lie, or did you overcommit?
Setting myself a self-imposed deadline of Monday at midnight EST to fully catch up and get out content.
Or maybe it is just correlation =/= causation where you seeing a difference in play correlates to people of different alignments sometimes play differently, but that's not logically the cause.
Re: the ISO: I'm looking forward to seeing your thought process.
Hm. I kind of like this post.
Tubba, talk to me about scum!Voxx. What does he do to live to end game? Does his claiming to be roleblocked play to that end as well?
Erm... no. This is... just flat out wrong.
This all presupposes that my intent when I was making this post was to give the thread insight into my slots state of mind. Like, you seem to think that... when I was making the post, the thoughts running through my head should have been relating to the concequences of my post... which is a scum mentality. You're presupposing I'm scum and going from there. You're tunneling. Try to look at these things objectively. It's hard to take you seriously while you're thinking like this about me.
Like, you're literally calling questions relevent to, at the bare minimum, my mindset this game noise. That's jsut factually incorrect.
Now, critically thinking is a tangible thing that can be seen in mafia. It's a thing that scum don't really need to do as much as town. I also wasn't trying to 'convince anyone' that they were critically thinking. I was just pointing it out.
And I obviously disagreed with your 296 even if I didn't specifically say it.
It's late though and I'm tired, so I'll try and figure out if you're really tunneling town or fake tunneling scum at some point after I get sleep.
If scumVoxx is real, claiming role blocked is a risk, but if it works, gives him a good chance to survive and do some damage. The payoff is more players rolling to his narrative, no longer seriously suspecting him at worst, and taking his opinions as gospel at best. If he solidifies even just two or three town reads on him, it works to buy him a few days/possible mislynches. It leaves him open to claim at a later date, and open to pushing fake news on the thread. While this is simply a theory of mine at this point, I want everyone to be aware of the possibilities and not fall prey to the gambit.
It seems to me that the Empirical Evidence once rumored may soon come to light. I worry this is just a distraction, however, and those in the forefront should remain so. Killjoy will either pick up the quill, or resign to the crayon. Doting on his instrument is meaningless; clarity is inevitable.
Colin votes Tubba
Reaverb votes Killjoy
Shadow votes Reaverb
Grapefruit votes Archon
Torg votes Jenna
Six days transpired; six days remain; six votes required; four here without a public record:
Archon
Tubba
Killjoy
Voxxicus
With Archon among the unvoted, nobody can reach six votes. I would move my vote only to Colin or Torg, neither of which could reach 6 without another mover.
Today is a stalemate. What now?
DoTArchon - 2 (Jenna Tolaria, Grapefruit21)
Jenna Tolaria - 1 (King Torg)
Killjoy - 1 (Reaverb Tau)
Reaverb Tau - 1 (shadowlancerx)
Tubba Fett - 1 (Colin)
Not Voting - 4 (Tubba Fett, DoTArchon, Voxxicus, Killjoy)
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 2 ends at 11:59 PM Eastern on 29 October.
Vote Count 1.8, Vote Count 1.9, Vote Count 1.10, Vote Count 1.11, Vote Count 1.12, Vote Count 1.13, Vote Count 1.Final
Day 2: Vote Count 2.1
What was your intent when making #142 and your content up to (not including) #286?
Tell me what you got out of some of the questions in #142, or some other post of yours before #286. I have a hard time believing you got anything meaningful out of it.
I've never seen anybody in a debate give their piece while /completely ignoring/ the opposing arguments. It strikes me as fake.
I'm going to need this promised elaboration. While Jenna is obfuscating a bit she has been going out of her way to post who she wants dead even if the reasoning isn't always clear at first glance. And given her propensity to repeat and use different wordings I'm seeing an effort to attempt to get people to understand.
The main reason I'm quoting this post though is that he's voting someone entirely for their play style when he has someone that is an equal scum read (dota) while not explaining his read there at all. Why vote Jenna over Dota if the Jenna read is entirely about her admittedly hard to grok playstyle?
I don't know the answer. Is there somewhere Torg expands on it that I missed?
My argument is not nonsensical. Part of your premise seems to be that you, when making that opening post, I should have been considering how it would help town. You said as much when you said that "what I said was not particularly +EV town". The intention of the post was not to directly benefit town. It was to guage people's answers and see if I can figure out where they were coming from.
Also, we weren't debating Osie's alignment. Like, you and I were not. My intention there was just to present what I was thinking on Osie. Your opinion on his play was wrong, and therefore did not enter into my case.
I will obviously not do every quote, but here's some expansion on some things.
142:
To Vaimes:Why did you ask this? What was it's purpose?
You correctly noted that I didn't follow up here. That's because fairly shortly after I asked it, I had decided to trust Voxx that Vaimes was town... so there really was no hurry to get the answer. Then he died.
To Osie: I'm mildly confused by this. Cuddly Teddy seems like you think he's pulling punches or something (possibly with regard to Voxx, or the whole game in general?), Bear Liposting seems like you're saying he's not posting a lot (maybe you think he should be posting more?), and Trample and the flavor text seems like you think he's usually very aggressive.
Basically, I'm asking if this means you think he's normally more agressive and posts a bunch, but he's not doing that this game? Is that interpretation correct?
So here I was asking for clarification on Osie's Vaimes, Cuddly Teddy card because it seemed he was stating an opinion on Vaimes in joke form, which could have been scum!Osie trying to smear Vaimes without people taking it too seriously from him, so I asked for clarification.
To Voxx:This HAS to be a meta read, which prompts my question: How confident are you?
And with regards to the "people scumreading you" thing, how do you feel about Osie?
This was part of me trying to decide to trust Voxx's read on Vaimes. Those reasons are the kind of reasons one might state if they have a good idea of what goes on in a person's head. So I asked how confident he was on it, to decide if I should trust it or not. His Vaimes backstory post is one I took to be response to this question, and to mean 'pretty confident'.
To King TorgHm.
KT, explain what you think scum!DoTa is thinking when making this post?
I was trying to get him to think it through, and show me where his mind ends up there. Like, draw me a line using his brain from that post to scum!DotA.
To DotAHm. Explain why this is more than semantics, please. Why does this come from scum vs. town?
This it appears I just misunderstood. It seemed that DotA was implying that he thought shadow's word choice was alignment indicative and more significant than just semantics.
To JennaHm. Do you have opinions on Osie's alignment right now? If so, what is it? Nevermind, just read 127. So I'll change the question to: given his behavior, who is his most likely scumbuddy and why?
This was me scumreading Osie and wanting the cryptic Jenna to comment on my scumread. I wanted to see if our minds were melding there, or what she was thinking in general.
186:
To King TorgNeat.
What do you think of Osie? And... lets say Voxx? What about him?
Here's my followup to my post to KT in the last one.His answer was just a noob answer. Like, in reality, scum don't do that but his mafia theory wasn't very fleshed out... not really alignment indicative IMO.
Then I decided to try and ask his opinions on my top scumread and my top townread, to see where his head is at. Maybe if I don't focus on mafia theory, I can maybe figure out his alignment another way.
To DotA:I might not have been clear. I was referring to 52->shadow being about semantics. You say he's cocky. Why does that mean anything?
Also, in rereading the above quote, and your ISO, I have another question for you: Can you explain the mindset about #57? What were you thinking when you posted it, what you were looking for in an answer, etc.
So I futher clarify my "is this more than jsut semantics" and then ask him about his respose to Jenna's blind vote on Shadow which was something like "is that all?" which I felt was oddly worded for town. Like, town would ask for someone to expand on a thought... but my initial thought of it was "Is DotA trying to notify his scumbuddy Jenna that she needs to expand or else she'll look scummy". So I asked for his mindset while posting, which he later gave and unfortunately it wasn't really alignment indicative like I'd hoped it would be.
To Colin:Ignoring Bear/other townread's townread of Vaimes, is he scum? Everything before the last sentence seems like you're suspicious of him then you default to town because other people. Explain please.
This is in respose to his Vaimes read which is a lot of 'I don't like this, this, this, this, this or this. But Bear is townreading him, so I'm trusting that'. which... doesn't tell me anything about how he is actually reading Vaimes. So, I asked for expansion on that thought.
To Colin:This seems... flimsy. Asking how many mafia isn't very substancial. Expand on which of Tubbas posts are "a guide how not to play as mafia"?
This is questioning the hyperboly of "Tubba's guide how not to play as mafia" which I wasn't seeing THAT level of scumminess from Tubba (or actually not really at all but specifically I was having trouble seeing how he was scumreading him that hard since we were reading the same posts and he wasn't coming off nearly that bad to me)
To Colin:I'm also slightly confused here. Like, Reaverb, you say you still have issues with his opening, and other than that he's town... but he's in your Town section. Shadow reads like you're fully townreading him, but he's in your "Just visiting" seciton (which I interpret as "barely leaning town"). Vaimes I've addressed, but what doesn't make sense is he's higher on the list than people like shadow (who it looks like you're townreading hard). Osie is also higher than shadow, after all you've said about him.
This was my asking him to clarify his reads list ordering, since it didn't seem to mesh with his descriptions from earlier in the post.
He's explained, and it still seems off, but that's where I was going with it when I asked.
Ok, I did basically two full posts. If there's something specific you'd like me to expand on from and post after that, let me know.
Actually, the question isn't a bad one. I'm kinda curious about the answer as well.
On Reaverb (the things that pinged scum):
-His first two posts were dodgy, over explaining an RVS vote to be max. He follows up that he did so as to avoid sounding insulting, which could be true.
-He continues with a vote on Dota, but part of the reasoning was specifically criticizing him for his RVS vote of me, which was pretty clearly RVS.
-Post 70 he asks Jenna for "empirical evidence" on her scum read of Vaimes. I don't know what empirical evidence you expect anyone to have on day one, so to demand it looked bad.
-Post 148 is coaching on King Torg, slight buddy pings for it.
-Post 215 is a vote on KJ when his logic implied a better chance for Colin to be scum. Like I'm not sure why he didn't vote KJ earlier and then post his criticisms of Colin. He later goes over his logic a little deeper but I'm somewhat suspicious that he's being a little revisionist.
I'm going to stop here because I'm tired, I've been mostly skimming anyway, and I've covered some of the more recent stuff.
@All: if you are not voting then you need to get in here and vote. If you believe you're voting for the most likely scum, then make that case. Let's get some content in here before it goes down to the wire.
I stand by bringing attention towards Jenna today. I think it was a good place to go and the fact that she engages more than most others in the thread means that it should provide benefit for town regardless of her alignment. Your suspicion of Voxx has been something I've liked today. As I previously indicated (#360), I am not a fan of revealing that information (assuming it's true). I've been considering the options and instinctively it read more like a town who's posted and then sloppily tried to cover it instead of saying they acted rashly. Upon my first read I was influence by how I felt about Voxx day 1, of course. There was certainly an aura of suspicion around him because of that. The further posts by Voxx today are a poor showing too. I'm definitely at the point where I'm largely uneasy about him. You trusted me before? That's rather curious. In a game where trust is the most valuable commodity for my opponent, I do not give it easily.
Also @Tau a combination of RL and the developments here got in the way of the Killjoy project, but I haven't forgotten it.
King Torg's ISO. Can anyone make a town case for Torg?
By that logic, scumVoxx not playing with an alt is pointless. Besides that, if he gets his team ahead prior to his d4 deadline, he's doing his job.
@Colin
Well I guess I could waste my time debating your reads, but there's no value in that line of play. If I somehow convince you, you don't vote me. The games not about me, or you. That solves very little of the game, basically my alignment and that's it. I know my alignment, it's just not useful. I'm sorry but that's all I've got. Engage me on solving the game, or try and vote me off.
This post is terrible.
I'm saying he would be playing with the expectation of getting lynched at some point. I feel like scum!Voxx doesn't put unnecessary info into the thread with that in mind.
I assume it was my question to king torg about why he's voting Jenna for non gameplay reasons while carrying a scum read on Dota at the same time. Purely playstyle seems like it should be trumped by a textual scum read.
Ohhh the bus is warming up.
DoTArchon - 3 (Jenna Tolaria, Grapefruit21, Killjoy)
Jenna Tolaria - 1 (King Torg)
Killjoy - 1 (Reaverb Tau)
King Torg - 1 (DoTArchon)
Reaverb Tau - 1 (shadowlancerx)
Tubba Fett - 1 (Colin)
Not Voting - 2 (Tubba Fett, Voxxicus)
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 2 ends at 11:59 PM Eastern on 29 October.
Vote Count 1.8, Vote Count 1.9, Vote Count 1.10, Vote Count 1.11, Vote Count 1.12, Vote Count 1.13, Vote Count 1.Final
Day 2: Vote Count 2.1, Vote Counter 2.2