I wanted to share this story. It was a bit of a bitter experience to be honest.
I spent the last two or three weeks trying to figure this one out. I initially talked to no one else at the LGS because this guy is respected at the store. For me to call him out and for me to be wrong, with my lower wins, might be political suicide.
The player uses primarily Ux control decks and he's darn near impossible to beat. He always has an answer. OK, no problem. I study his cards, plays and tells and he does them all. That annoying rifle or flipping with his hand. The jittery movements with his body. All typical. Initially, I was studying him and his deck to build and design better decks against him. Eventually, I decided he was weaving or shuffling incorrectly. So I starting noting my starting hands compared to other players. Statistically, they're no different.
So what was it?
Last night I figured out the tell. When he has answers (counterspell basically), he'll flip the card around in his hand. Like the card is upside down. Every. Single. Time. I can even tell how many counterspells he has in his opening hand. Then I noticed he would put his counterspells in his graveyard upside down in relation to his other cards. Why?
So I tested my theory and asked the judge to allow me to bow out of a matchup to show him. He and I stood away from the players table. During the round 1, I accurately predicted when he had counterspell-type cards and how many and when he played. I also pointed out the counterspell cards would be upside down in the graveyard. I presume that when they were shuffled back in the deck, they would remain upside down. That convinced the judge. So on Round 2, after shuffle but before draw, the judge swooped in and picked up his deck and took it into the back room of the LGS. He was gone for about 10 or 15 minutes before he returned. The player and him talked and in a huff the player scooped and left. Basically the judge wanted him to resleeve his deck.
How did he do it? The inner sleeves were different. Lands were sleeved in simple inners. But all of the spell cards were in sealable inner sleeves that cause that poof bubble on the outer sleeves. I know because I use them on the Yu-Gi-Oh cards and it's annoying. Regular spells went in the sleeve right side up, flap at the bottom. Counterspells went in upside down, flap at the top. This resulted in very subtle poofiness and slightly different wear marks on the outer sleeves. Not very noticeable while shuffling or from a distance I guess, all the outer sleeves were oriented correctly. But in his hand, the counterspells were upside down, so he had to reorient them.
So in essence, if it was worn a certain way at the top, it was a counter spell. If it was at the bottom, regular spells. Lands even wear. That's how the judge explained it to those of us. I've eyeballed my worn YGO sleeves for about two hours to see a pattern. I haven't seen one yet.
Maybe I'm just tired and had a long day, but besides this meaning he knew what he was going to draw at all times (and stupidly reveal what he had to an opponent like yourself), how does it relate to him having the counterspells he needed every time? Not saying what he did was okay, I'm just not connecting the dots in my head.
Maybe I'm just tired and had a long day, but besides this meaning he knew what he was going to draw at all times (and stupidly reveal what he had to an opponent like yourself), how does it relate to him having the counterspells he needed every time? Not saying what he did was okay, I'm just not connecting the dots in my head.
To be honest, I'm not sure if the goal was to determine the counterspell or to determine the spells. I figured the counterspells since they were upside down. Maybe I thought of this wrong the whole time and the real goal was to know when he wasn't going to get a counter spell?
Yeah, I had a working reliable theory about which cards were inverted, I was still terrified when I went up to the judge because I wasn't sure I was even right. I also couldn't really explain the why of it even to him.
I do something similar with my Yu-Gi-Oh cards that have the resealable inner sleeves. However, I sleeve them all identically, cut the deck in half, rotate, then shuffle. I do this because if they're all oriented the same way, they tend to slide away. This is what I genuinely thought he did and why I feel so bitter about this this whole thing. Will someone think I'm cheating with my YGO cards now?
Maybe I'm just tired and had a long day, but besides this meaning he knew what he was going to draw at all times (and stupidly reveal what he had to an opponent like yourself), how does it relate to him having the counterspells he needed every time? Not saying what he did was okay, I'm just not connecting the dots in my head.
He was pretty much playing with a pseudo-scry for free. You can bet on him knowing exactly what sleeve-wear marks meant for the card on the top of his deck at all times.
Maybe I thought of this wrong the whole time and the real goal was to know when he wasn't going to get a counter spell?
Cards were marked. Whether or not he actually cheated, he's still getting punished for it (a warning, usually; judge just wanted him to resleeve; see 3.8 in the infraction procedure guide).
He shouldn't have left, and just resleeved. Leaving just makes him more memorable.
With marked cards only, you get a small advantage, especially if its visible by the eye where a card is in a deck by looking at the deck, or when the opponent presents the deck after a shuffle etc, or just by looking at the deck, when its placed with the marked parts to the player.
In general, if a card is "upside-down" in a deck, its a high chance they are marked that way, even if the sleeves would be identical.
Theres little reason for a player to put cards in different upside down in his deck, and even less with a pattern.
----
Lets assume he played the classic UB Control deck currently in standard, the deck has plenty of cycling effects, so knowing the top card of a deck is pretty big deal and having a counter spell when you need it obviously matters.
That said its a pretty "poor" kind of marking cards in your deck, as its very visible to anyone that looks at the deck and the time you get in a deck check this will very likely be caught as its simply that visible with a pattern.
Its for sure the correct move to tell a judge, correct or not, its the best way to do any of this, they can check and make the call.
As a player directly confronting someone with this will not be a good idea, unless you are close to that person (like a friend).
I spent the last two or three weeks trying to figure this one out. I initially talked to no one else at the LGS because this guy is respected at the store. For me to call him out and for me to be wrong, with my lower wins, might be political suicide.
The player uses primarily Ux control decks and he's darn near impossible to beat. He always has an answer. OK, no problem. I study his cards, plays and tells and he does them all. That annoying rifle or flipping with his hand. The jittery movements with his body. All typical. Initially, I was studying him and his deck to build and design better decks against him. Eventually, I decided he was weaving or shuffling incorrectly. So I starting noting my starting hands compared to other players. Statistically, they're no different.
So what was it?
Last night I figured out the tell. When he has answers (counterspell basically), he'll flip the card around in his hand. Like the card is upside down. Every. Single. Time. I can even tell how many counterspells he has in his opening hand. Then I noticed he would put his counterspells in his graveyard upside down in relation to his other cards. Why?
So I tested my theory and asked the judge to allow me to bow out of a matchup to show him. He and I stood away from the players table. During the round 1, I accurately predicted when he had counterspell-type cards and how many and when he played. I also pointed out the counterspell cards would be upside down in the graveyard. I presume that when they were shuffled back in the deck, they would remain upside down. That convinced the judge. So on Round 2, after shuffle but before draw, the judge swooped in and picked up his deck and took it into the back room of the LGS. He was gone for about 10 or 15 minutes before he returned. The player and him talked and in a huff the player scooped and left. Basically the judge wanted him to resleeve his deck.
How did he do it? The inner sleeves were different. Lands were sleeved in simple inners. But all of the spell cards were in sealable inner sleeves that cause that poof bubble on the outer sleeves. I know because I use them on the Yu-Gi-Oh cards and it's annoying. Regular spells went in the sleeve right side up, flap at the bottom. Counterspells went in upside down, flap at the top. This resulted in very subtle poofiness and slightly different wear marks on the outer sleeves. Not very noticeable while shuffling or from a distance I guess, all the outer sleeves were oriented correctly. But in his hand, the counterspells were upside down, so he had to reorient them.
So in essence, if it was worn a certain way at the top, it was a counter spell. If it was at the bottom, regular spells. Lands even wear. That's how the judge explained it to those of us. I've eyeballed my worn YGO sleeves for about two hours to see a pattern. I haven't seen one yet.
I thought it was worth a share.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
To be honest, I'm not sure if the goal was to determine the counterspell or to determine the spells. I figured the counterspells since they were upside down. Maybe I thought of this wrong the whole time and the real goal was to know when he wasn't going to get a counter spell?
Yeah, I had a working reliable theory about which cards were inverted, I was still terrified when I went up to the judge because I wasn't sure I was even right. I also couldn't really explain the why of it even to him.
I do something similar with my Yu-Gi-Oh cards that have the resealable inner sleeves. However, I sleeve them all identically, cut the deck in half, rotate, then shuffle. I do this because if they're all oriented the same way, they tend to slide away. This is what I genuinely thought he did and why I feel so bitter about this this whole thing. Will someone think I'm cheating with my YGO cards now?
Cards were marked. Whether or not he actually cheated, he's still getting punished for it (a warning, usually; judge just wanted him to resleeve; see 3.8 in the infraction procedure guide).
He shouldn't have left, and just resleeved. Leaving just makes him more memorable.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
In general, if a card is "upside-down" in a deck, its a high chance they are marked that way, even if the sleeves would be identical.
Theres little reason for a player to put cards in different upside down in his deck, and even less with a pattern.
----
Lets assume he played the classic UB Control deck currently in standard, the deck has plenty of cycling effects, so knowing the top card of a deck is pretty big deal and having a counter spell when you need it obviously matters.
That said its a pretty "poor" kind of marking cards in your deck, as its very visible to anyone that looks at the deck and the time you get in a deck check this will very likely be caught as its simply that visible with a pattern.
Its for sure the correct move to tell a judge, correct or not, its the best way to do any of this, they can check and make the call.
As a player directly confronting someone with this will not be a good idea, unless you are close to that person (like a friend).
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