I am really not sure about this one...
Turn one:Lets say I have an Advocate of the Beast down, and play a Garruk's Companion. At my end step I put a the counter on Garruk's Companion.
Turn two: My friend plays a Shadowborn Apostle, all he has down.
Turn three: I attack with the Companion, now a 4/3 from the last turn. He blocks with Shadowborn Apostle. With Garruk's Companion go from a 4/3 back to a 3/2 because Shadowborn Apostle blocked, dealing damage to remove the 1/1 counter, or are counters more on the permanant side?
He says it removes the counter. I'm not so sure.
A little help here? I looked and could not find anything on it.
Damage does not reduce toughness nor power. Damage dealt to ceatures from a source with neither wither nor infect is simply marked on that creature and compared to its toughness. So a 4/3 creature that is dealt 1 damage is still a 4/3 creature, but with 1 damage marked on it. Marked damage stays on the creature until it is removed in the cleanup step, or an effect (totem armor or regeneration) removes it. So it can accumulate over the turn from several sources to kill a larger creature.
Damage from a source with neither wither not infect does not remove counters. And even with those abilities, it is not the damage that removes counters. Those two abilities cause the source to deal damage to a creature in the form of -1/-1 counters. -1/-1 counters and +1/+1 counters annihilate each other as a state based action. But -1/-1 counters can come from many different cards, not just sources with wither or infect. -1/-1 counters the most common way to remove +1/+1 counters. But like all other counters, they stay until an effect, cost, or rule tells you to remove them. There are many cards for the first two. For the third, the only relevant rule that removes counters is the state based action I mentioned. But be careful not to confuse temporary -1/-1 effects with -1/-1 counters. Only if an effect uses the actual word "counter" are counters involved.
Your friend is wrong. A +1/+1 counter remains on a creature as long as it is still on the board. It is only removed if the card the counters are on is removed from the field or through a card effect.
I wish I could refer you to the basic rulebook, which I browsed just now, but I can't. I just can't.
Damage dealt to creatures does not change their statistics. It leaves a "mark", marking the creature with that much damage until it is wiped away as the turn ends in the Cleanup step. Damage and toughness interact through the rule which destroys creatures who have lethal damage marked on them, defined as equal to or exceeding their toughness.
+1/+1 counters modify a creature's statistics, and otherwise are inert. They don't go anywhere until either an effect moves them, or -1/-1 counters show up and nullify them.
A Garruk's Companion with 1 damage marked on it and a +1/+1 counter is just that - a 4/3 creature with 1 damage marked on it.
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I get the part about the damage. And now I get the other part. Thank you for clearing this up.
In other words, 1/1 counters can only be removed by things that say to remove it.
And damage markers are put on a creature until the end of the turn, at clean-up step. (This part I already knew)
Thank you for the help,
PlazaLord
Turn one:Lets say I have an Advocate of the Beast down, and play a Garruk's Companion. At my end step I put a the counter on Garruk's Companion.
Turn two: My friend plays a Shadowborn Apostle, all he has down.
Turn three: I attack with the Companion, now a 4/3 from the last turn. He blocks with Shadowborn Apostle. With Garruk's Companion go from a 4/3 back to a 3/2 because Shadowborn Apostle blocked, dealing damage to remove the 1/1 counter, or are counters more on the permanant side?
He says it removes the counter. I'm not so sure.
A little help here? I looked and could not find anything on it.
Damage does not reduce toughness nor power. Damage dealt to ceatures from a source with neither wither nor infect is simply marked on that creature and compared to its toughness. So a 4/3 creature that is dealt 1 damage is still a 4/3 creature, but with 1 damage marked on it. Marked damage stays on the creature until it is removed in the cleanup step, or an effect (totem armor or regeneration) removes it. So it can accumulate over the turn from several sources to kill a larger creature.
Damage from a source with neither wither not infect does not remove counters. And even with those abilities, it is not the damage that removes counters. Those two abilities cause the source to deal damage to a creature in the form of -1/-1 counters. -1/-1 counters and +1/+1 counters annihilate each other as a state based action. But -1/-1 counters can come from many different cards, not just sources with wither or infect. -1/-1 counters the most common way to remove +1/+1 counters. But like all other counters, they stay until an effect, cost, or rule tells you to remove them. There are many cards for the first two. For the third, the only relevant rule that removes counters is the state based action I mentioned. But be careful not to confuse temporary -1/-1 effects with -1/-1 counters. Only if an effect uses the actual word "counter" are counters involved.
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Damage dealt to creatures does not change their statistics. It leaves a "mark", marking the creature with that much damage until it is wiped away as the turn ends in the Cleanup step. Damage and toughness interact through the rule which destroys creatures who have lethal damage marked on them, defined as equal to or exceeding their toughness.
+1/+1 counters modify a creature's statistics, and otherwise are inert. They don't go anywhere until either an effect moves them, or -1/-1 counters show up and nullify them.
A Garruk's Companion with 1 damage marked on it and a +1/+1 counter is just that - a 4/3 creature with 1 damage marked on it.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
In other words, 1/1 counters can only be removed by things that say to remove it.
And damage markers are put on a creature until the end of the turn, at clean-up step. (This part I already knew)
Thank you for the help,
PlazaLord