If you have 1GW open on t3, don't you just do 10 infect damage and win?
t1, Forest, Worldly Tutor for Lost Leonin.
t2, Plains, Lost Leonin.
t3, upkeep, give it +3/+3 (make it a 5/4).
t3, Untapped Land, Declare Lost Leonin as attacker. Pay 1GW, and it has 10 power, no?
If you have 1GW open on t3, don't you just do 10 infect damage and win?
t1, Forest, Worldly Tutor for Lost Leonin.
t2, Plains, Lost Leonin.
t3, upkeep, give it +3/+3 (make it a 5/4).
t3, Untapped Land, Declare Lost Leonin as attacker. Pay 1GW, and it has 10 power, no?
You can only pay 1GWto double power if Arahnbo is on the battlefield, not from command zone.
The first three new C17 legendary creatures leaked were a Cat Dragon, a Dragon Spirit, and a Dragon Avatar.
Back then I positted that the additional creature types on these three might hint at the other decks - for cross-deck synergy and additional color support that might not have fit into the original deck (siince that would not be five-colored and hence have restrictions). With Cat confirmed the statement gets a little support. I am not confirming Avatar and Spirit, but I think Spirit is likely as a deck that is not five-colored (so they had this great Spirit character that they couldn't put at the helm of the spirit deck since they felt five-colored, but could be argued to be a Dragon as well... plausible story).
I'm not so sure abut Avatars, but they are a possibility due toi Ixalan spoilers, so I'm keeping an open mind. But we also have to take into consideration that Wasitora, Nekoru Queen was a lesser rare legendary and is paired with Taigam, Ojutai Master which might be hinting at Human or Monk.
Depending on whether Cats are supposedly unexpected or not I'd put my money possibly rather on Human or Monk/Avatar respectively, but Spirit just seems like a fine choice - and there is a lot of color combinations you could go with them - Innistradi white-blue, Dimir blue-black, Orzhov white-black, Abzan white-black-green. I could see a white-blue-black Spirit deck hinting at all these sources and maybe more. After all nature spirits can be green, and violent spirits like poltergeists or vengeful ghosts have been red.
And there have to be plenty of characters in MtG history to make a reference to in such a deck as a legendary creature post mortem. ^^
Agree
I hope spirit is WUB or WBG I want esper more because there's more heavy hitters in blue than green
But most of all WUBG but doubt it hey I can dream can't it good news is O-kagachi can serve as a alternate plus you can splash R with him.
I feel there are much better Selesnaya commanders out there, however until we can see the 2 "alternative" commanders I will not pass a full judgment.
As for the "Dragons=Tribes" Theory, I don't feel that this is true as couldn't we be looking at an Artifact tribal as well?
However with this spoiler i will put my money on that The Ur Dragon will be the commander of the dragon tribal. Both Ur and Arahbo both have the "Eminence" mechanic.
Also i have a feeling as we now have a 5c and a 2c deck spoiled. I reckon that the other two will be a 3c and a 4c.
While admittedly unlikely,
Ajani was half red during Alara block,
but they have since printed W and GW versions of him.
Ajani was part red only after Jazal died and he was overcome with a desire for revenge. Before his brother's death, (i.e. pre-walker) Ajani was mono-white, or possibly white-green.
As far as existing cats and their effectiveness, I 100% disagree. G-Jedit is a pretty great warrior Commander, with the forest walk portion being very interesting and allows for some build around space beyond tribal support. Temur Sabretooth laughs at your claim. Nacatl War Pride isn't useful? It's one of the more unique, and abusable effects, in the format. Cats now have a lord and token producers.
While admittedly unlikely,
Ajani was half red during Alara block,
but they have since printed W and GW versions of him.
Ajani was part red only after Jazal died and he was overcome with a desire for revenge. Before his brother's death, (i.e. pre-walker) Ajani was mono-white, or possibly white-green.
As far as existing cats and their effectiveness, I 100% disagree. G-Jedit is a pretty great warrior Commander, with the forest walk portion being very interesting and allows for some build around space beyond tribal support. Temur Sabretooth laughs at your claim. Nacatl War Pride isn't useful? It's one of the more unique, and abusable effects, in the format. Cats now have a lord and token producers.
In fairness, he did say most, not all.
All tribes have mostly unplayable jank, what makes this any different? Should I sit and list the ~60 cards that debunk his claim?
I feel there are much better Selesnaya commanders out there, however until we can see the 2 "alternative" commanders I will not pass a full judgment.
As for the "Dragons=Tribes" Theory, I don't feel that this is true as couldn't we be looking at an Artifact tribal as well?
However with this spoiler i will put my money on that The Ur Dragon will be the commander of the dragon tribal. Both Ur and Arahbo both have the "Eminence" mechanic.
Also i have a feeling as we now have a 5c and a 2c deck spoiled. I reckon that the other two will be a 3c and a 4c.
Well there are probably better Gruul commanders than Atarka, World Render. Doesn't make her a bad Dragon commander.
Artifact is not a tribe, it is a card type. I'd save Artifact creatures for a different quad of decks alongside enchantment, land, and spell themes.
We could also see a colorless deck and a UBR deck, though of course they've mentioned that the decks aren't color balanced.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
These are the cats that are must run in a cat tribal deck.
Lost Leonin (Swing for 5 infect for 2 mana) Skyhunter Skirmisher (Swing for 4 double strike in the air for 3 mana) Fleecemane Lion (Swing for 6 for 2 mana, but can also become indestructible and hexproof) Sacred Cat/Regal Caracal (swing for 4 lifelink for 1 mana)
I understand some of these cards are not rare, but they will still be ran in thousands of cat tribal EDH decks so foils are desirable.
These are the cats that are must run in a cat tribal deck.
Lost Leonin (Swing for 5 infect for 2 mana) Skyhunter Skirmisher (Swing for 4 double strike in the air for 3 mana) Fleecemane Lion (Swing for 6 for 2 mana, but can also become indestructible and hexproof) Sacred Cat/Regal Caracal (swing for 4 lifelink for 1 mana)
I understand some of these cards are not rare, but they will still be ran in thousands of cat tribal EDH decks so foils are desirable.
Any other obvious really strong synergies here?
Let me preface by saying I have no problem with what you are personally saying, but just the general discussion around the cat tribe in general.
I understand the decks are going to be driven towards combat because of the abilities, bit there are so many cool interactions that I cannot wait to cobble together.
To add to your list. BothForestwalk legends are awesome to push massive damage through. Also allows you run a sub-theme of being able to "turn on " forest walk with card like Lush Growth and Song of the Drayds(there's a few more, but you get the picture).
The only "complaint" that I have is that there isn't a strong card advantage engine available, yet, but G allows you to thin your deck with ramp spells. Well of Lost Dreams has obvious synergy with lifegain, and how about the flavor of casting Soul's Majesty on a pumped creature for some incredible draw power?
I feel there are much better Selesnaya commanders out there, however until we can see the 2 "alternative" commanders I will not pass a full judgment.
As for the "Dragons=Tribes" Theory, I don't feel that this is true as couldn't we be looking at an Artifact tribal as well?
However with this spoiler i will put my money on that The Ur Dragon will be the commander of the dragon tribal. Both Ur and Arahbo both have the "Eminence" mechanic.
Also i have a feeling as we now have a 5c and a 2c deck spoiled. I reckon that the other two will be a 3c and a 4c.
Well there are probably better Gruul commanders than Atarka, World Render. Doesn't make her a bad Dragon commander.
Artifact is not a tribe, it is a card type. I'd save Artifact creatures for a different quad of decks alongside enchantment, land, and spell themes.
We could also see a colorless deck and a UBR deck, though of course they've mentioned that the decks aren't color balanced.
I completely agree, my point was that there seems to be a lot of hate against Arahbo so far, but we havent seen the alternatives yet. They could be a lot worse or it could end up like the Kalemne deck. Where one of its alternatives, Gisela, was a much better commander.
I know artifact is a card type but i would love to see a mono-brown precon. Thropter tribal? Ha!
Ummmm....it matters greatly. There are well over a half-dozen cat legends in the game's history. Wolves and werewolves have exactly 1. 1. No legendary wolves - Voja doesn't count because it's an elf that puts him out as a token - and Ulrich is by all accounts an atrocious tribal legend.
An atrocious legend, eh? What exactly was a Werewolf legend supposed to do? Because what I see is that Werewolves wanted a legend that was a Werewolf to fit the theme and benefit from their tribal effects, which happened to involve laying the beatdown while minimizing spellcasting. The whole point of playing a tribal deck is to play a bunch of creatures with the relevant type; a tribal commander isn't supposed to carry the whole game on their own. Ulric is a great spearhead for a Werewolf deck as he will often be one of the largest Werewolves in the deck, and even when transforming back can make a creature bigger to keep the beats up.
Sure, I guess he could have cheated Werewolves out to help them transform, but I'm not calling him atrocious simply because he isn't a Champion of Rhonas for Werewolves. A group pump effect could have worked, but Arlinn Kord took up a lot of that space; at least you can play them in a deck together and have them work together well enough. And preventing Werewolves from transforming, like Immerwolf, would work against the flavor, not to mention weaken cards like Huntmaster of the Fells. In fact, I want to see more benefits for transforming Werewolves back and forth in the future to encourage switching between casting lots of spells and no spells over the course of the game, not to mention punish opponents for trying to disrupt you by casting spells repeatedly. I'll take more Ulrich and Huntmaster-type Werewolves, thank you very much.
One would hope a tribal legend would, oh I don't know, help the tribe or synergize with the gameplay at all. Ulrich does neither. Take his name away from the card, and he is just a gruul flip-card. He doesn't pump werewolves like the new cat Lord here. He doesn't punish players for casting spells to consistently keep the werewolves human, nor does he do anything to address that werewolves are dumb ground beaters with few having evasion. We weren't asking for the moon, but just SOME help. Ulrich wasn't it, and it's why many werewolf fans still rely on Xenagos or Ruric That to even keep the deck semi-functional in EDH. The tribe needs a TON of help. Am I glad Ulrich exists? Yes, but not if he is the only legend we get for the tribe. Why not give him some activation cost to flip another werewolf? That wouldn't be too much. I didn't want another immerwolf, but there was 100 and 1 different angles Ulrich could have gone that allowed him to transform and aided the tribe.
Thing about tribal I personally liked is now just having the creature type synergies. You can put both cards that are lord like and are just powerful cards with creature type and it works. Not every legend that can be used for tribal needs to be a tribal commander, personal I'd just like if they where powerful, the right colors and doesn't work against the deck (Ulrich I will say is on the weaker side).
And Ulrich still doesn't count as a legendary wolf, so that still leaves one legend supporting two tribes and aiding neither. This was wolves and werewolves likely only chance before Innistrad 3.0 to get any love, and it just looks like it's not going to happen.
Werewolves weren't gonna be likely anyways, DFC are tricky for pre-made stuff, we been told. But I've also seen werewolf fans who have said they won't mind seeing werewolves on other planes and/or one-sided which makes them more likely. Once again for tribal having the creature type works it with a tribal deck.
Again, happy for cat fans, but the puppies needed love too. Ulrich was not it. And any werewolf player will say the same. Flavor-wise, yay. Actually helping the tribe-wise? Nope.
As a tribal card yes Ulrich sucks. As a finisher in my casual deck (using that +4/+4 boost), he does some work.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
As far as existing cats and their effectiveness, I 100% disagree. G-Jedit is a pretty great warrior Commander, with the forest walk portion being very interesting and allows for some build around space beyond tribal support. Temur Sabretooth laughs at your claim. Nacatl War Pride isn't useful? It's one of the more unique, and abusable effects, in the format. Cats now have a lord and token producers.
In fairness, he did say most, not all.
All tribes have mostly unplayable jank, what makes this any different? Should I sit and list the ~60 cards that debunk his claim?
I feel there are much better Selesnaya commanders out there, however until we can see the 2 "alternative" commanders I will not pass a full judgment.
As for the "Dragons=Tribes" Theory, I don't feel that this is true as couldn't we be looking at an Artifact tribal as well?
However with this spoiler i will put my money on that The Ur Dragon will be the commander of the dragon tribal. Both Ur and Arahbo both have the "Eminence" mechanic.
Also i have a feeling as we now have a 5c and a 2c deck spoiled. I reckon that the other two will be a 3c and a 4c.
Well there are probably better Gruul commanders than Atarka, World Render. Doesn't make her a bad Dragon commander.
Artifact is not a tribe, it is a card type. I'd save Artifact creatures for a different quad of decks alongside enchantment, land, and spell themes.
We could also see a colorless deck and a UBR deck, though of course they've mentioned that the decks aren't color balanced.
I know artifact is a card type but i would love to see a mono-brown precon. Thropter tribal? Ha!
We just had an artifact deck with Breya. I seriously doubt we're getting another artifact-heavy deck so soon.
I feel there are much better Selesnaya commanders out there, however until we can see the 2 "alternative" commanders I will not pass a full judgment.
As for the "Dragons=Tribes" Theory, I don't feel that this is true as couldn't we be looking at an Artifact tribal as well?
However with this spoiler i will put my money on that The Ur Dragon will be the commander of the dragon tribal. Both Ur and Arahbo both have the "Eminence" mechanic.
Also i have a feeling as we now have a 5c and a 2c deck spoiled. I reckon that the other two will be a 3c and a 4c.
Well there are probably better Gruul commanders than Atarka, World Render. Doesn't make her a bad Dragon commander.
Artifact is not a tribe, it is a card type. I'd save Artifact creatures for a different quad of decks alongside enchantment, land, and spell themes.
We could also see a colorless deck and a UBR deck, though of course they've mentioned that the decks aren't color balanced.
I know artifact is a card type but i would love to see a mono-brown precon. Thropter tribal? Ha!
We just had an artifact deck with Breya. I seriously doubt we're getting another artifact-heavy deck so soon.
As far as existing cats and their effectiveness, I 100% disagree. G-Jedit is a pretty great warrior Commander, with the forest walk portion being very interesting and allows for some build around space beyond tribal support. Temur Sabretooth laughs at your claim. Nacatl War Pride isn't useful? It's one of the more unique, and abusable effects, in the format. Cats now have a lord and token producers.
In fairness, he did say most, not all.
All tribes have mostly unplayable jank, what makes this any different? Should I sit and list the ~60 cards that debunk his claim?
I feel there are much better Selesnaya commanders out there, however until we can see the 2 "alternative" commanders I will not pass a full judgment.
As for the "Dragons=Tribes" Theory, I don't feel that this is true as couldn't we be looking at an Artifact tribal as well?
However with this spoiler i will put my money on that The Ur Dragon will be the commander of the dragon tribal. Both Ur and Arahbo both have the "Eminence" mechanic.
Also i have a feeling as we now have a 5c and a 2c deck spoiled. I reckon that the other two will be a 3c and a 4c.
Well there are probably better Gruul commanders than Atarka, World Render. Doesn't make her a bad Dragon commander.
Artifact is not a tribe, it is a card type. I'd save Artifact creatures for a different quad of decks alongside enchantment, land, and spell themes.
We could also see a colorless deck and a UBR deck, though of course they've mentioned that the decks aren't color balanced.
I know artifact is a card type but i would love to see a mono-brown precon. Thropter tribal? Ha!
We just had an artifact deck with Breya. I seriously doubt we're getting another artifact-heavy deck so soon.
Look he couldn't understand totally unambiguous statements. I wouldn't bother trying to get him to understand how cat tribal has much worse support than dragon tribal. Way too complicated.
Well, unambiguous would be your opinion, it certainly isn't fact.
I guess by "support", you mean expensive, weak, situational, and bad cards that already exist that are both stronger and aren't entirely reliant on the Dragon sub-type.
Doesn't matter how clear the picture is if you're blind I guess.
My favorite play back when I started playing EDH was EOT White Sun's Zenith untap Raksha Golden Cub, equip anything, kill table. GW lets me gain access to all the mana doublers to make this play that much more extraordinary I guess. I was definitely looking for more things to pump with Raksha's ability and it would be nice to dust him off after cutting him from Kemba a few years ago. Jazal Goldmane and Raksha actually encourage high damage plays so Cat tribal had some tools before this.
This doesn't come close to replacing Kemba for me (the cats were a byproduct of the game plan, not a focus) but I can see myself building this. EDH doesn't have to be all about value. High damage is also fun. Sometimes you just need to show people that REAL FELINE DAMAGE.
There aren't any multicolored legends that support spirits
Um... Iname as One? Sure, he costs an arm and a leg and one of his abilities basically requires Command Beacon if he's your commander, but he's a multicolor legend that supports spirits.
If you have 1GW open on t3, don't you just do 10 infect damage and win?
t1, Forest, Worldly Tutor for Lost Leonin.
t2, Plains, Lost Leonin.
t3, upkeep, give it +3/+3 (make it a 5/4).
t3, Untapped Land, Declare Lost Leonin as attacker. Pay 1GW, and it has 10 power, no?
You can only pay 1GWto double power if Arahnbo is on the battlefield, not from command zone.
Agree
I hope spirit is WUB or WBG I want esper more because there's more heavy hitters in blue than green
But most of all WUBG but doubt it hey I can dream can't it good news is O-kagachi can serve as a alternate plus you can splash R with him.
But avatar I'm having trouble seeing
First is it has to be 5-color because of three particular avatars
Number two they are almost last place with 58 on most done on edh rec. tied with shadows
And there's one problem with this theory of the other tribes
What about ramos
As for the "Dragons=Tribes" Theory, I don't feel that this is true as couldn't we be looking at an Artifact tribal as well?
However with this spoiler i will put my money on that The Ur Dragon will be the commander of the dragon tribal. Both Ur and Arahbo both have the "Eminence" mechanic.
Also i have a feeling as we now have a 5c and a 2c deck spoiled. I reckon that the other two will be a 3c and a 4c.
UBRJeleva, Nephalias Scourge: ...and the storm arrivedRBU
BGHapatra, Vizier of PoisonsGB
WAvacyn, Angel of Hope: Avy, Baby!W
In fairness, he did say most, not all.
All tribes have mostly unplayable jank, what makes this any different? Should I sit and list the ~60 cards that debunk his claim?
Well there are probably better Gruul commanders than Atarka, World Render. Doesn't make her a bad Dragon commander.
Artifact is not a tribe, it is a card type. I'd save Artifact creatures for a different quad of decks alongside enchantment, land, and spell themes.
We could also see a colorless deck and a UBR deck, though of course they've mentioned that the decks aren't color balanced.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Lost Leonin (Swing for 5 infect for 2 mana)
Skyhunter Skirmisher (Swing for 4 double strike in the air for 3 mana)
Fleecemane Lion (Swing for 6 for 2 mana, but can also become indestructible and hexproof)
Sacred Cat/Regal Caracal (swing for 4 lifelink for 1 mana)
I understand some of these cards are not rare, but they will still be ran in thousands of cat tribal EDH decks so foils are desirable.
Any other obvious really strong synergies here?
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Let me preface by saying I have no problem with what you are personally saying, but just the general discussion around the cat tribe in general.
I understand the decks are going to be driven towards combat because of the abilities, bit there are so many cool interactions that I cannot wait to cobble together.
To add to your list. Both Forestwalk legends are awesome to push massive damage through. Also allows you run a sub-theme of being able to "turn on " forest walk with card like Lush Growth and Song of the Drayds(there's a few more, but you get the picture).
Cats also have increible keywords that have an awesome payoff with Concerted effort or off-tribe Odric 2.0.
Life gain matters in non-Orzhov colors also benefits the tribe as most have lifelink, grant lifelink, or have lifegain payoff.
The tribe also has utility. Felidar Cub and Leonin Relic-Warder and the obvious Qasali Pridemage.
The only "complaint" that I have is that there isn't a strong card advantage engine available, yet, but G allows you to thin your deck with ramp spells. Well of Lost Dreams has obvious synergy with lifegain, and how about the flavor of casting Soul's Majesty on a pumped creature for some incredible draw power?
I completely agree, my point was that there seems to be a lot of hate against Arahbo so far, but we havent seen the alternatives yet. They could be a lot worse or it could end up like the Kalemne deck. Where one of its alternatives, Gisela, was a much better commander.
I know artifact is a card type but i would love to see a mono-brown precon. Thropter tribal? Ha!
UBRJeleva, Nephalias Scourge: ...and the storm arrivedRBU
BGHapatra, Vizier of PoisonsGB
WAvacyn, Angel of Hope: Avy, Baby!W
Thing about tribal I personally liked is now just having the creature type synergies. You can put both cards that are lord like and are just powerful cards with creature type and it works. Not every legend that can be used for tribal needs to be a tribal commander, personal I'd just like if they where powerful, the right colors and doesn't work against the deck (Ulrich I will say is on the weaker side).
Werewolves weren't gonna be likely anyways, DFC are tricky for pre-made stuff, we been told. But I've also seen werewolf fans who have said they won't mind seeing werewolves on other planes and/or one-sided which makes them more likely. Once again for tribal having the creature type works it with a tribal deck.
As a tribal card yes Ulrich sucks. As a finisher in my casual deck (using that +4/+4 boost), he does some work.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
We just had an artifact deck with Breya. I seriously doubt we're getting another artifact-heavy deck so soon.
Look he couldn't understand totally unambiguous statements. I wouldn't bother trying to get him to understand how cat tribal has much worse support than dragon tribal. Way too complicated.
I guess by "support", you mean expensive, weak, situational, and bad cards that already exist that are both stronger and aren't entirely reliant on the Dragon sub-type.
Doesn't matter how clear the picture is if you're blind I guess.
Weatherlight confirmed.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
This doesn't come close to replacing Kemba for me (the cats were a byproduct of the game plan, not a focus) but I can see myself building this. EDH doesn't have to be all about value. High damage is also fun. Sometimes you just need to show people that REAL FELINE DAMAGE.
"Kiora is the Aquaman of planeswalkers."
"Useless and everyone pretends to like her?"
Personally, I would have been happy with a legendary Immerwolf or a legendary Huntmaster of the Fells.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Please no. Zombies already have seven tribal commanders, even though none of them are actually Zombies themselves.
...Ugh! You know what? Nevermind!
Zombie Avatar please.
There will never be enough Zombies. NEVER!!
SO sick of Zombies the last few years. I pray they DO NOT do this. Ugh, please NO.
Like, literally, what is even left to do with Zombies at this point?
Please don't say 'Zombie Planeswalker' either. I will straight-up come to your house and murder you.
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