The whole idea of FNM is to play the game with others who showed up with a friendly competitive mindset to hone your skills for a GP or a more serious tourney event. You play for the experience and to have fun, getting a promo card should not be the sole reason you are going out to your local game store. Unfortunately many of you are spoiled rotten and think you should be given something no matter what just because you play the game. It is honestly really sad, you think you are automatically "owed" a reward from WotC for attending an FNM rather than just playing for fun or practice. Hate to sound like a grandpa here, but back in the late 90's you would play for simply the thrill of winning, seeing the regulars of the local game store, trading to get some new cool cards, and then maybe walking away with $20 store credit, and the prize wasn't the main motivation. That was it, no shiny promo card, just hanging out with groups of gamers all showing up to play the friggin game. The "OMG WOTC IS THE WORST COMPANY EVUR WORST STUPIDEST IDEA THEYVE EVER DONE NEVER PLAYING MTG AGAIN" typical hyperbole comments here only reflect the state of selfishness and self-entitlement with this generation of MtG players. Sucks.
Back in the late nineties/early naughties this is what happened here.
We got.....ranking points. Look after your ranking and it lead to.....free nationals. Yep, two day events with two draft pods. For free. Keep all the cards. For free. Oh and the prizes, besides the free T shirts and glass trophies? Free flights and hotel. Don't mind if I do. And I did. For free. And what did I do in the big events- drafted and played constructed for two odd days. For free. Spot the pattern.
We also had championships like States, which the rest of the world does not now have. Prizes- full art Mutavaults, anyone? And bags. And hats. And glass trophies. And playmats. Kind of like a big Game day. With full art Mutavaults and bags.
Prereleases had 9 foot posters like you see in game stores, t shirts etc. Plus huge prizes- half a box, maybe a box.
periodically the WOTC folk sent us......full art promos, Cryptic Commands, Damnations, etc. Just for playing.
FNM foils were actually pretty damn good too- Remand, Finks, Brainstorm etc.
In short I have a trophy/swag room and binders that are full of memories reminding me of how much the game used to pay out.
So I would say that we did pretty well.......
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
The whole idea of FNM is to play the game with others who showed up with a friendly competitive mindset to hone your skills for a GP or a more serious tourney event. You play for the experience and to have fun, getting a promo card should not be the sole reason you are going out to your local game store. Unfortunately many of you are spoiled rotten and think you should be given something no matter what just because you play the game. It is honestly really sad, you think you are automatically "owed" a reward from WotC for attending an FNM rather than just playing for fun or practice. Hate to sound like a grandpa here, but back in the late 90's you would play for simply the thrill of winning, seeing the regulars of the local game store, trading to get some new cool cards, and then maybe walking away with $20 store credit, and the prize wasn't the main motivation. That was it, no shiny promo card, just hanging out with groups of gamers all showing up to play the friggin game. The "OMG WOTC IS THE WORST COMPANY EVUR WORST STUPIDEST IDEA THEYVE EVER DONE NEVER PLAYING MTG AGAIN" typical hyperbole comments here only reflect the state of selfishness and self-entitlement with this generation of MtG players. Sucks.
Back in the late nineties/early naughties this is what happened here.
We got.....ranking points. Look after your ranking and it lead to.....free nationals. Yep, two day events with two draft pods. For free. Keep all the cards. For free. Oh and the prizes, besides the free T shirts and glass trophies? Free flights and hotel. Don't mind if I do. And I did. For free. And what did I do in the big events- drafted and played constructed for two odd days. For free. Spot the pattern.
We also had championships like States, which the rest of the world does not now have. Prizes- full art Mutavaults, anyone? And bags. And hats. And glass trophies. And playmats. Kind of like a big Game day. With full art Mutavaults and bags.
Prereleases had 9 foot posters like you see in game stores, t shirts etc. Plus huge prizes- half a box, maybe a box.
periodically the WOTC folk sent us......full art promos, Cryptic Commands, Damnations, etc. Just for playing.
FNM foils were actually pretty damn good too- Remand, Finks, Brainstorm etc.
In short I have a trophy/swag room and binders that are full of memories reminding me of how much the game used to pay out.
So I would say that we did pretty well.......
Also had the Guru program and Foil Wastelands being sent out. Wizards/Hasbro is in such a cost cutting mode it's really ridiculous considering how much more the game has grown.
The above article gives the 'reasoning' WotC has for this change.
I hadn't realized that WotC was trying to make me play Standard on Saturday or some other day which I don't have time to do.
Their 'engaged' players such as myself have carved out time a couple times a month to hit FNM and play Standard, making us move our schedules and life around is asinine and shows they aren't paying as much attention to people as Holser is giving them credit for. I cannot and will not shift to Sat or Sun because I don't have time and don't want to! FNM is the perfect time and frankly at my LGS is when the MOST people show up and have time to attend.
It doesn't matter what promos you put where if you're trying to dictate when and how people will play especially changing something that not only works (FNM) but is set with years of habit.
Wrong moves. As for the 'I used to trudge up hill in waist deep snow' stories telling us we are whining over shiny things... who likes to have shiny things taken away? Why would you take shiny things away when you want not only to keep the engaged players you have but also translate more interested into engaged?????
The above article gives the 'reasoning' WotC has for this change.
I hadn't realized that WotC was trying to make me play Standard on Saturday or some other day which I don't have time to do.
Their 'engaged' players such as myself have carved out time a couple times a month to hit FNM and play Standard, making us move our schedules and life around is asinine and shows they aren't paying as much attention to people as Holser is giving them credit for. I cannot and will not shift to Sat or Sun because I don't have time and don't want to! FNM is the perfect time and frankly at my LGS is when the MOST people show up and have time to attend.
It doesn't matter what promos you put where if you're trying to dictate when and how people will play especially changing something that not only works (FNM) but is set with years of habit.
Wrong moves. As for the 'I used to trudge up hill in waist deep snow' stories telling us we are whining over shiny things... who likes to have shiny things taken away? Why would you take shiny things away when you want not only to keep the engaged players you have but also translate more interested into engaged?????
Yeah, as much as I make any other time but Friday nights work, I really don't have time between work and family. I've wanted to go to Standard Showdown for awhile, but because it's on Sunday nights at 5 p.m., I just can't do it. It's Fridays or bust for me. If FNM is supposed to be a bunch of novices, well, then I guess it'll be pretty easy pickings for me every week because I ain't changing the day I play.
I always enjoy the Prof's videos. He looks at the issues of the game very fairly and doesn't scream or get too hot in his words. He has a very smart way of looking at things and can really explain his stance and points well.
He has a lot of good points in this video and certainly shows that what Wizards is saying doesn't quite make full sense and that this recent decision is puzzling, to say the least.
Prof is very biased, though, and when you disagree with him on certain things, it shows very clearly. And I don't think he does a great job giving the other side's opinion. I think anything with regards to financial value, he's going to align with the "make expensive stuff immediately cheap" opinion, eg they should have stuff like $50 cards in $30 products, which is a moronic viewpoint imo. And it's that way in this case, though I agree with him since this has been an established thing for 2 decades now and doesn't really hurt the prices of current cards because they're promos, but it's a great way for players to potentially get a very good card, eg. Fatal Push in a couple months.
I think overall, though, Prof's arguments are solid, on point, and expose the double talk and contradictions in Wizard's arguments.
We've seen Wizards change their tune after major pushback, and hopefully videos from a major channel like Prof's will help, but this seems more like a philosophical change for Wizards rather than slight tweaking, contrary to what the article says when they said they didn't want to "change FNM too much".
I don't know if it's the new CEO, but I can't get over how dysfunctional Wizards' leadership has been recently. The proposed changes have been atrocious.
[quote from="Dontrike »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/780053-ixalan-fnm-game-day-changes?comment=135"]
I think overall, though, Prof's arguments are solid, on point, and expose the double talk and contradictions in Wizard's arguments.
This I agree with.
I wish Prof had addressed the idiotic attempt to force people who give them money to change their life habits from Fridays to another day because they feel like it. Promos cost them nothing and have the potential, when used properly, to gain them attendance and dollars.
Who the hell uses 1 data point to make a decision on anything?? Jan vs June? Winter vs Summer, totally different Standard environment, zero advertising for better promos, and they didn't do a survey of people attending to see if they came for the promo or not. Complete logic fail.
You never force customers to do what you want when you want. You cater to what/when they want and draw them in with shiny things.
IF changing te FNM prom ointo a 2-sided foil token helps to get rid of netdecking-pro-wannabe-tryhards then it is all for the better.
Did people really put T1 decks together and go to FNMs to farm promos for profit though? I just don`t believe that.
I did see your emphasis on if, and I do agree that more brewy, less sharky standard FNMs would be nice.
While I think some players may have purposely done it for the promos, I know at least one LGS owner that pocketed as many of the more valuable FNM promos that he could get away with to later sell online. I think these tokens could disincentives owners like him doing this if the amount of money people are willing to pay for foil double sided tokens is a lot less than the current average FNM promo.
She wants to go play at the store on saturday morning? Fine.
She wants to go play at the store on friday night? Nope. Not until she's older.
WotC and people like Corbin can change the promos all they want, they can chase away all the sharks and jerks and Spikes and whatnot, they can put in all the effort in the world to make FNM more appealing to the "graduated novices", but unless they reschedule 'FNM' to a timeslot that's appropriate for a 13-year old (or perhaps manage to set up a trustworthy adult supervision & taxi service program) my reaction as a parent would still be "nope, she won't go until she's older".
Perfect example right here of why FNM should stay the same (for everyone and 'engaged players' especially) and Saturday or Sunday noon or 1 is for interested, novice, and beginners. Kids should be encouraged to play and get help. Don't usurp the time when the established play which is too late for a lot of younger participants. Totally good point.
NO BLOODY WAY I WOULD LET MY 13-YEAR OLD BE OUT BY HERSELF AT 11:00 PM.
Hell, when I was 13, at 11:00 my ass was asleep! I remember now Yu-Gi-Oh events on Thursdays at the shop where I used to work ending about 11:00 now that you mention it. No way in hell my parents would have let me do that as a kid, particularly around the sorts of folks who play Yu-Gi-Oh.
Who the heck is in charge over at Wizards, and why are they giving the Donald Trump presidency a run for their money on the level of stupidity we are seeing? They have been stripping value from events for ages now and over-pricing a ton of their retail products. Not to mention the value prospect on pack openings in standard has been abysmal thanks to minimal modern staple inclusions. Maybe they don't feel they have any competition in the card gaming space so they can get away with this kind of stuff?
The only reason I haven't even been making more conversation on this announcement is that it felt like it came out of no where after all the positive announcements they made in June.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I wish Prof had addressed the idiotic attempt to force people who give them money to change their life habits from Fridays to another day because they feel like it. Promos cost them nothing and have the potential, when used properly, to gain them attendance and dollars.
Who the hell uses 1 data point to make a decision on anything?? Jan vs June? Winter vs Summer, totally different Standard environment, zero advertising for better promos, and they didn't do a survey of people attending to see if they came for the promo or not. Complete logic fail.
You never force customers to do what you want when you want. You cater to what/when they want and draw them in with shiny things.
This reply isn't directed at Greyimp (or anyone specifically), but I quoted this because it compacts one of the aspects I wanted to raise.
Not going to argue about the data/communication issue (which I already stated here before is their blatantly weakest aspect - 3 days data for Felidar Guardian, data 13 years ago for Kamigawa...) and that better promos definitely drive better attendance, that's common sense.
But among all these "FNM is the only time I can play MTG and I play competitively" and "what customers (or more accurate, "I") want you need to cater to" really pointed out something though - the sense of entitlement on the assumption you are pretty much that the only type of player/customers that WotC has.
Like I said in my earlier post, the whole FNM "turning to casual" thing has a lot of people riled up and bemoaning the loss of tradition and while it's a legit point that even if the measures WotC put up to segregate the two (casual/competitive) from the "messed-up-across-LGS-around-the-globe" FNM system has repercussions (basically Standard Showdown on weekends prevents people like them from attending), the sense of entitlement that they think are the only competitive players around - it's like competitive players who can only play on weekends but not Fridays don't exist like that. Sure, we don't see them often, but they don't have almost 2 decades worth of tradition to have them be so visually obvious either.
I mean, think about it, imagine they went the other way round - FNM now features chase rares that's bound to turn almost every FNM into a cutthroat battle and Standard Showdown were introduced as "Casual Clashes" on weekends. People who play casually and can only play on Fridays will lose their Magic-playing day/incentives as well and judging from the general sense of entitlement, we'll get the exact same complaints here just from different people.
Despite all my relative defense for WotC (which they need because like I said they're totally bad at communication), I'm not saying the change was perfect - they could create Standard Showdown in the first place, what's stopping them from revamping both systems (FNM and showdown) to function on both Fridays and Saturdays instead. The prizes/foils alone will ensure the correct playerbase for each event, so I think it's honestly really stupid of them to not capitalize on it and maximize attendance on both days instead of attempting to dictate days for casual/competitive.
This thread frustrates me to some degree because while I do agree that WotC is making stupid decisions, a lot of people only think about themselves here as well and instead of coming up with some plan that can cater to all, they pretty much only complain about what affects them, which if you think about it in abstract makes them no different from the typical corporate decisions companies make done only for themselves.
Short story - they have two systems, they want to define them clearly as casual and competitive, so FNM gets the boot to Casual realm, so yeah, while we lose some promos and tradition, we get the definition for each system.
WotC wants to bait out to see if there are competitive Saturday/Sunday players using Showdown, it works so WotC banishes FNM to casual, but forgets about the Friday-only competitive player (those most clearly upset here). Said players complain about changes but pretty much doesn't acknowledge the other group WotC baited out and every suggestion is basically "revert changes/cater to me only".
Meanwhile Saturday-only-Casual players pretty much have nothing and continue to have nothing and nobody cares about them. Nobody on any division thinks of putting both systems on all the days (Friday, Saturday and Sunday) instead so regardless of alignment and/or time-free, you can play Standard (yeah I know other formats got flattened but WotC has blatantly stated through actions they wanted to flattened "YGO-formats" anyway).
EDIT/DISCLAIMER: I do understand not everyone only thinks for themselves, but after reading through the last 2 pages of complaints I got really frustrated that the thread was emitting that aura and I needed to vent that frustration out. While it's true WotC is terrible at data and communication, I'm even more frustrated that people aren't seeing their actual intentions, instead taking the miscommunication and stacking it with self-entitlement in complains rather than pointing out the simplest solution for everyone. It's true WotC is bungling hard with thinking it can dictate customers, but from some comments thinking self-entitlement is enough for a single group/type of players (of their type) to dictate both WotC and all other groups/types of playerbases is honestly no different.
I am busy on weekends and I play on weeknights this sucks. :/ No one ever does anything on a weeknight but the weekend there is all sorts of things on. Friends have BBQs and board game nights and movies. There is no way I could even do something regularly on a weekend because I am always going to choose hanging out with my non magic friends (well they did get me into magic but casually).
I play Tuesday, Thrusday and Friday nights... almost never on a weekend in fact the only time I play on the weekend is Game Day :S which is also gone. 3 days is already... kind of too much to be honest I really can't be tempted into playing even more.
I loved the foil promos, I know I know half of them suck, because there is no way for them to know ahead of time if the cards will be good. I honestly play the same standard deck for basically the whole standard season. By the end of the standard season my whole deck is basically FNM promos, it is so beautiful. FNM promo esper dragons and FNM promo UR burn. Then a lot of the FNM promos are great in peasent cube, sure I can use the tokens as well there but it isn't the same at all. I don't come to FNM for the promos I just really liked them and I enjoyed having full foil promo decks.
I really can't see a positive in this anouncement. Maybe having the store champs when everyone has thier deck instead of scrambling to get cards the week after pro tour for game day.
Actually there are other aspects beyond "this works/fails" for me". Wizards' policy is based on "this works for America", and always has been.
Here in Europe we have a totally different culture.
Friday evenings are drinking days. From 18 upwards, of course. Saturdays too. FNM does not do very well in the UK compared to the USA, and never has because those are key "going out" days. The whole idea of LGS centerd play is a very American one too. 70% of my twenty year Mtg-ing has been played in sanctioned events in pubs- drinking establishments. Nowadays WOTC have done their best to try and drown out independent TOs, but you can still find some LGS that allow events such as these to continue in pubs under their auspices. There is no "Fridays is FNM" culture here. Yes, FNM happens, but the numbers are small.
As you get older there is less of a Friday night drinking culture, but older Mtg players sure as hell don't give a toss about Standard and will never play it for as long as it is about creatures and planeswalkers and two and three cc lightning bolts- unless they are aiming at specific events and playing seriously week-in-week out travelling to big events- in which case Mtg is very time consuming and incompatible with family life. The last FNM I went to had 26 Legacy players, 7 (?) standard. My local LGS has some new players and hits about 8-10 Standard, with other formats pulling in similar numbers every now and then.
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
Actually there are other aspects beyond "this works/fails" for me". Wizards' policy is based on "this works for America", and always has been.
Here in Europe we have a totally different culture.
Friday evenings are drinking days. From 18 upwards, of course. Saturdays too. FNM does not do very well in the UK compared to the USA, and never has because those are key "going out" days. The whole idea of LGS centerd play is a very American one too. 70% of my twenty year Mtg-ing has been played in sanctioned events in pubs- drinking establishments. Nowadays WOTC have done their best to try and drown out independent TOs, but you can still find some LGS that allow events such as these to continue in pubs under their auspices. There is no "Fridays is FNM" culture here. Yes, FNM happens, but the numbers are small.[/qiuote]
Thats specific for your location.
Others will attend a FNM and it ends at almost midnight, after that plenty of time to go out and do whatever else with your friends.
This works perfectly fine for the last 20 years in areas i experienced, especially if you are in a city anyway.
Some stores might even do multiple FNM , one earlier for the kids and one after closing time of the shop for adults that get right there from working late. If you have enough people, all of that works.
[quote]As you get older there is less of a Friday night drinking culture, but older Mtg players sure as hell don't give a toss about Standard and will never play it for as long as it is about creatures and planeswalkers and two and three cc lightning bolts- unless they are aiming at specific events and playing seriously week-in-week out travelling to big events- in which case Mtg is very time consuming and incompatible with family life. The last FNM I went to had 26 Legacy players, 7 (?) standard. My local LGS has some new players and hits about 8-10 Standard, with other formats pulling in similar numbers every now and then.
In my area we practically only Draft for FNM, rarely in addition modern is played (and entirely different people play that, draft is still running), even more rare standard (only if theres a GP or a PTQ for it in the near future).
Draft is much more appealing as people can just come by and play, they dont need a deck at all. That way newbies can jump in and learn a lot very easily and people do not have to carry stuff around, they play a Draft FNM and can wander off at any moment to party in the city and get drunk or whatever (thats more annoying if you carry a lot of constructed decks with you).
I hate to break it to people, but the taking away of FNM promotional material has nothing to do with what they said in the posting. That is them trying to justify the decision to an increasingly hostile player base. The only reason that they could be doing this is to collect data to see how the attendance is without promos of worth as saying they are doing that directly would likely skew results.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Why does FNM Promos have to MOstly be "Standard Legal"? All the new players / Kids i see in the store that are starting to play standard, would love to have (and im just spitballing) any number of modern or older cards. I understand the "i cant even play this fresh promo in my deck" thought process.. But it doesnt cost any more money to reprint in foil Renegade Rallier or Horizon Canopy.
If these were the Next 12 months of promos - no one would complain and your attendance would be skyrocketing
Why does FNM Promos have to MOstly be "Standard Legal"? All the new players / Kids i see in the store that are starting to play standard, would love to have (and im just spitballing) any number of modern or older cards. I understand the "i cant even play this fresh promo in my deck" thought process.. But it doesnt cost any more money to reprint in foil Renegade Rallier or Horizon Canopy.
If these were the Next 12 months of promos - no one would complain and your attendance would be skyrocketing
Oh, people would complain. They absolutely would. "Investors" who make singles sales their primary business and source of income would complain, and those are the same people who buy sealed product by the case. WOTC needs players, sure, but the sales come from the big stores. Those big stores also sell singles online, and too many high-end promos would crash the market. Personally, I think the market needs a crash, but it wouldn't be in WOTC's best interest to upset the people who buy the most sealed product.
I just read that article from mr.Rasmussen, and honestly? It's one of the biggest piles of bull***** I have ever read. It just doesn't make sense on so many levels.
First of all, they say they have data that ''promos weren't affecting FNM attendance in years''. Well, the promos have been ***** for years too. The last year with consistently good promos was 2013. I wonder about the data for the months when path and serum visions were promos. But of course, they can't show us that for some reason. So we just have to blindly trust their data.
Then he says that they want FNM to be a casual event. And standard showdowns to be the competitive ones. But didn't he just say that promos don't matter when getting people to FNM? So the same people will still be coming to FNM...and casual people still won't be able to play their cat decks... Unless he means that competitive players will stop going to FNM's because they won't get foil Fatal Pushes anymore, but then that would contradict his statement that promos don't affect attendance. Not to mention that FNM is the event where you can play modern or draft. Formats usually played by more experienced players where people who like kitchen table cat decks won't stand a chance anyway.
After reading this update, it seems to me this is another attempt to try and get people into playing standard after the *****show it has been the past year. Cut the cool rewards from FNM where people can play anything and try to get them to play standard showdowns. Like OMG they even say in the annoucement article that players want more cool lands and that they will be adding foil Guay lands to get people more excited for standard showdowns! Why not do that for FNM? Why can't I get a Guay land for playing FNM? Why do I get a token? Oh I know, because at FNM I play modern and draft instead of standard.
TLDR: Wizards is full of ***** and is asking us to trust them based on data they refuse to publish. In reality they just want to get modern and limited players to play standard instead.
Alternatively they are just dumb. Which wouldn't surprise me with all the things they did in the recent years.
Check and mate. I am not a big social media person, but this needs to go somewhere where these people can see these and be pressured to respond, and explain the circular logic (no pun intended) being given here.
WOTC seems to want to blame everyone but themselves for Standard's (and by extension, profit) decline
The format has been terrible lately. No explanation needed.
OP changes they've made have been net-negative for players almost universally.
Sets have not been hot and percentages of playable/valuable cards has been low, partially by design (Invocations).
They want to "pass the savings cost" onto us for THEIR f^%kups. Ridiculous.
EDIT: BTW, if you want FNM to be casual(ish) again, bring back ELO ratings. The "Spike" players they don't want there wouldn't dare losing a bye from a rating drop from losing to a random. Planeswalker Points are stupid as hell anyway. Not like you get anything for them, really...
The only foil token I look forward to right now is treasure tokens that be coming in on Ixalan. As I been quickly picking up the pieces for a commander deck that will be Grixis Pirates.
I disagree That "Investors" Would Complain... First of all, Its 12 Cards in one year. Secondly not all 12 i listed are super expensive. In fact half are less then 40 in "value" And have been reprinted 2 or 3 times. A Promo Alternate art Version of these will either be more then or about the same a the others and would probably barely depress prices more then 10% overall.
Third - THIS IS A BIG ONE - The Investors get these promos first before they give them out to anybody.. They could (and some do) make multiple changes to FNM when the promos were nice (like PTE and Serum Visions). Most of the LGS around started charging 8 to 10 dollars for FNM but they did 2.5-3 packs per person prize support and or a slice of pizza or free drink etc.
I can guarantee my LGS would take advantage of the "Valuable" Promo... like 1 pack prize support instead of 2 or raise FNM cost but ofset it with other value.
Last i know a few shops that are supposed to give promos to top 8 but they only do top 4...i wonder what these investors i mean shops do with the others???
Like I said in my earlier post, the whole FNM "turning to casual" thing has a lot of people riled up and bemoaning the loss of tradition and while it's a legit point that even if the measures WotC put up to segregate the two (casual/competitive) from the "messed-up-across-LGS-around-the-globe" FNM system has repercussions (basically Standard Showdown on weekends prevents people like them from attending), the sense of entitlement that they think are the only competitive players around - it's like competitive players who can only play on weekends but not Fridays don't exist like that. Sure, we don't see them often, but they don't have almost 2 decades worth of tradition to have them be so visually obvious either.
I feel like I need to answer a lot of misunderstanding in your post as a whole because I think you and those of us complaining are really on the same page, you just feel like you want to stand on the WotC side of the line.
As a business, your marketing department's purpose is to find out what potential and current customers like and offer them as close as you can get or something similar to hold and increase your sales/attendance. When I say 'you cater to what they want' I'm not saying selfishly 'I'm important', I'm saying 'marketing department, make sensible decisions to increase your engaged, interested, and new players'.
My LGS FNM is casual but I expect to face Top 8 decks because netdecking is a thing. And that's ok, it raises my game to brew and be able to beat those decks. That very same FNM has gone from 30 players every Friday to around 8 to 12 for standard, meanwhile Modern is the exact opposite. I even haven't played as much because the utter failure of a format has been brewproof an no I don't want to lose to another CoCo turn 4, or cat combo instawin even one more time.
Standard dumpster fire x decision to shorten rotation = about half quit and the other half invested in modern. That is completely Design/balance's fault.
Marketing shouldn't be trying to force the people they have left, who play and spend money, on different days or take away perceived rewards when they are already under duress because they very well might lose more. Whether because young newer players can't stay up as late on Fridays, or engaged and interested players have their schedules, or any other reasons you don't further alienate what you barely have left. That is common sense.
It isn't our job to 'come up with something' for WotC to do. They aren't going to listen anyways. People complaining about how it affects them personally is important DATA that should make the marketing department pay attention but when the decisions they make are so bloody awful and unsupported by facts and their explanations are so contradictory how you or WotC expect anything but outrage?
How about just keeping FNM as it is and adding rewards (tokens whatever) to Showdowns and making those the learner thing? There, problem solved. WotC, fix it.
Last i know a few shops that are supposed to give promos to top 8 but they only do top 4...i wonder what these investors i mean shops do with the others???
My shop gives 1st and 2nd a promo and then 2 random people. You're only allowed one per event so if 1st got a random they bump it down and 3rd will get one.
It's a nice system where just by playing you have a chance to get one. Still $5 entry.
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Best comment in this thread! I congratulate you, my friend!
What they could have done which would have made it phenomal is give the tokens for participating and the promo for winning.
Back in the late nineties/early naughties this is what happened here.
We got.....ranking points. Look after your ranking and it lead to.....free nationals. Yep, two day events with two draft pods. For free. Keep all the cards. For free. Oh and the prizes, besides the free T shirts and glass trophies? Free flights and hotel. Don't mind if I do. And I did. For free. And what did I do in the big events- drafted and played constructed for two odd days. For free. Spot the pattern.
We also had championships like States, which the rest of the world does not now have. Prizes- full art Mutavaults, anyone? And bags. And hats. And glass trophies. And playmats. Kind of like a big Game day. With full art Mutavaults and bags.
Prereleases had 9 foot posters like you see in game stores, t shirts etc. Plus huge prizes- half a box, maybe a box.
periodically the WOTC folk sent us......full art promos, Cryptic Commands, Damnations, etc. Just for playing.
FNM foils were actually pretty damn good too- Remand, Finks, Brainstorm etc.
In short I have a trophy/swag room and binders that are full of memories reminding me of how much the game used to pay out.
So I would say that we did pretty well.......
Also had the Guru program and Foil Wastelands being sent out. Wizards/Hasbro is in such a cost cutting mode it's really ridiculous considering how much more the game has grown.
The above article gives the 'reasoning' WotC has for this change.
I hadn't realized that WotC was trying to make me play Standard on Saturday or some other day which I don't have time to do.
Their 'engaged' players such as myself have carved out time a couple times a month to hit FNM and play Standard, making us move our schedules and life around is asinine and shows they aren't paying as much attention to people as Holser is giving them credit for. I cannot and will not shift to Sat or Sun because I don't have time and don't want to! FNM is the perfect time and frankly at my LGS is when the MOST people show up and have time to attend.
It doesn't matter what promos you put where if you're trying to dictate when and how people will play especially changing something that not only works (FNM) but is set with years of habit.
Wrong moves. As for the 'I used to trudge up hill in waist deep snow' stories telling us we are whining over shiny things... who likes to have shiny things taken away? Why would you take shiny things away when you want not only to keep the engaged players you have but also translate more interested into engaged?????
Yeah, as much as I make any other time but Friday nights work, I really don't have time between work and family. I've wanted to go to Standard Showdown for awhile, but because it's on Sunday nights at 5 p.m., I just can't do it. It's Fridays or bust for me. If FNM is supposed to be a bunch of novices, well, then I guess it'll be pretty easy pickings for me every week because I ain't changing the day I play.
Prof is very biased, though, and when you disagree with him on certain things, it shows very clearly. And I don't think he does a great job giving the other side's opinion. I think anything with regards to financial value, he's going to align with the "make expensive stuff immediately cheap" opinion, eg they should have stuff like $50 cards in $30 products, which is a moronic viewpoint imo. And it's that way in this case, though I agree with him since this has been an established thing for 2 decades now and doesn't really hurt the prices of current cards because they're promos, but it's a great way for players to potentially get a very good card, eg. Fatal Push in a couple months.
I think overall, though, Prof's arguments are solid, on point, and expose the double talk and contradictions in Wizard's arguments.
We've seen Wizards change their tune after major pushback, and hopefully videos from a major channel like Prof's will help, but this seems more like a philosophical change for Wizards rather than slight tweaking, contrary to what the article says when they said they didn't want to "change FNM too much".
I don't know if it's the new CEO, but I can't get over how dysfunctional Wizards' leadership has been recently. The proposed changes have been atrocious.
This I agree with.
I wish Prof had addressed the idiotic attempt to force people who give them money to change their life habits from Fridays to another day because they feel like it. Promos cost them nothing and have the potential, when used properly, to gain them attendance and dollars.
Who the hell uses 1 data point to make a decision on anything?? Jan vs June? Winter vs Summer, totally different Standard environment, zero advertising for better promos, and they didn't do a survey of people attending to see if they came for the promo or not. Complete logic fail.
You never force customers to do what you want when you want. You cater to what/when they want and draw them in with shiny things.
While I think some players may have purposely done it for the promos, I know at least one LGS owner that pocketed as many of the more valuable FNM promos that he could get away with to later sell online. I think these tokens could disincentives owners like him doing this if the amount of money people are willing to pay for foil double sided tokens is a lot less than the current average FNM promo.
I was really salty when I missed out on a promo Serum Visions because my opponent had the most insane draft deck with like 4 on-colour rares
As long as alternate art cards are available another way I'll be ok with this. Not happy but ok.
Perfect example right here of why FNM should stay the same (for everyone and 'engaged players' especially) and Saturday or Sunday noon or 1 is for interested, novice, and beginners. Kids should be encouraged to play and get help. Don't usurp the time when the established play which is too late for a lot of younger participants. Totally good point.
Hell, when I was 13, at 11:00 my ass was asleep! I remember now Yu-Gi-Oh events on Thursdays at the shop where I used to work ending about 11:00 now that you mention it. No way in hell my parents would have let me do that as a kid, particularly around the sorts of folks who play Yu-Gi-Oh.
The only reason I haven't even been making more conversation on this announcement is that it felt like it came out of no where after all the positive announcements they made in June.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
This reply isn't directed at Greyimp (or anyone specifically), but I quoted this because it compacts one of the aspects I wanted to raise.
Not going to argue about the data/communication issue (which I already stated here before is their blatantly weakest aspect - 3 days data for Felidar Guardian, data 13 years ago for Kamigawa...) and that better promos definitely drive better attendance, that's common sense.
But among all these "FNM is the only time I can play MTG and I play competitively" and "what customers (or more accurate, "I") want you need to cater to" really pointed out something though - the sense of entitlement on the assumption you are pretty much that the only type of player/customers that WotC has.
Like I said in my earlier post, the whole FNM "turning to casual" thing has a lot of people riled up and bemoaning the loss of tradition and while it's a legit point that even if the measures WotC put up to segregate the two (casual/competitive) from the "messed-up-across-LGS-around-the-globe" FNM system has repercussions (basically Standard Showdown on weekends prevents people like them from attending), the sense of entitlement that they think are the only competitive players around - it's like competitive players who can only play on weekends but not Fridays don't exist like that. Sure, we don't see them often, but they don't have almost 2 decades worth of tradition to have them be so visually obvious either.
I mean, think about it, imagine they went the other way round - FNM now features chase rares that's bound to turn almost every FNM into a cutthroat battle and Standard Showdown were introduced as "Casual Clashes" on weekends. People who play casually and can only play on Fridays will lose their Magic-playing day/incentives as well and judging from the general sense of entitlement, we'll get the exact same complaints here just from different people.
Despite all my relative defense for WotC (which they need because like I said they're totally bad at communication), I'm not saying the change was perfect - they could create Standard Showdown in the first place, what's stopping them from revamping both systems (FNM and showdown) to function on both Fridays and Saturdays instead. The prizes/foils alone will ensure the correct playerbase for each event, so I think it's honestly really stupid of them to not capitalize on it and maximize attendance on both days instead of attempting to dictate days for casual/competitive.
This thread frustrates me to some degree because while I do agree that WotC is making stupid decisions, a lot of people only think about themselves here as well and instead of coming up with some plan that can cater to all, they pretty much only complain about what affects them, which if you think about it in abstract makes them no different from the typical corporate decisions companies make done only for themselves.
Short story - they have two systems, they want to define them clearly as casual and competitive, so FNM gets the boot to Casual realm, so yeah, while we lose some promos and tradition, we get the definition for each system.
WotC wants to bait out to see if there are competitive Saturday/Sunday players using Showdown, it works so WotC banishes FNM to casual, but forgets about the Friday-only competitive player (those most clearly upset here). Said players complain about changes but pretty much doesn't acknowledge the other group WotC baited out and every suggestion is basically "revert changes/cater to me only".
Meanwhile Saturday-only-Casual players pretty much have nothing and continue to have nothing and nobody cares about them. Nobody on any division thinks of putting both systems on all the days (Friday, Saturday and Sunday) instead so regardless of alignment and/or time-free, you can play Standard (yeah I know other formats got flattened but WotC has blatantly stated through actions they wanted to flattened "YGO-formats" anyway).
EDIT/DISCLAIMER: I do understand not everyone only thinks for themselves, but after reading through the last 2 pages of complaints I got really frustrated that the thread was emitting that aura and I needed to vent that frustration out. While it's true WotC is terrible at data and communication, I'm even more frustrated that people aren't seeing their actual intentions, instead taking the miscommunication and stacking it with self-entitlement in complains rather than pointing out the simplest solution for everyone. It's true WotC is bungling hard with thinking it can dictate customers, but from some comments thinking self-entitlement is enough for a single group/type of players (of their type) to dictate both WotC and all other groups/types of playerbases is honestly no different.
I play Tuesday, Thrusday and Friday nights... almost never on a weekend in fact the only time I play on the weekend is Game Day :S which is also gone. 3 days is already... kind of too much to be honest I really can't be tempted into playing even more.
I loved the foil promos, I know I know half of them suck, because there is no way for them to know ahead of time if the cards will be good. I honestly play the same standard deck for basically the whole standard season. By the end of the standard season my whole deck is basically FNM promos, it is so beautiful. FNM promo esper dragons and FNM promo UR burn. Then a lot of the FNM promos are great in peasent cube, sure I can use the tokens as well there but it isn't the same at all. I don't come to FNM for the promos I just really liked them and I enjoyed having full foil promo decks.
I really can't see a positive in this anouncement. Maybe having the store champs when everyone has thier deck instead of scrambling to get cards the week after pro tour for game day.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Here in Europe we have a totally different culture.
Friday evenings are drinking days. From 18 upwards, of course. Saturdays too. FNM does not do very well in the UK compared to the USA, and never has because those are key "going out" days. The whole idea of LGS centerd play is a very American one too. 70% of my twenty year Mtg-ing has been played in sanctioned events in pubs- drinking establishments. Nowadays WOTC have done their best to try and drown out independent TOs, but you can still find some LGS that allow events such as these to continue in pubs under their auspices. There is no "Fridays is FNM" culture here. Yes, FNM happens, but the numbers are small.
As you get older there is less of a Friday night drinking culture, but older Mtg players sure as hell don't give a toss about Standard and will never play it for as long as it is about creatures and planeswalkers and two and three cc lightning bolts- unless they are aiming at specific events and playing seriously week-in-week out travelling to big events- in which case Mtg is very time consuming and incompatible with family life. The last FNM I went to had 26 Legacy players, 7 (?) standard. My local LGS has some new players and hits about 8-10 Standard, with other formats pulling in similar numbers every now and then.
In my area we practically only Draft for FNM, rarely in addition modern is played (and entirely different people play that, draft is still running), even more rare standard (only if theres a GP or a PTQ for it in the near future).
Draft is much more appealing as people can just come by and play, they dont need a deck at all. That way newbies can jump in and learn a lot very easily and people do not have to carry stuff around, they play a Draft FNM and can wander off at any moment to party in the city and get drunk or whatever (thats more annoying if you carry a lot of constructed decks with you).
So yes, culture is a big deal.
FNM for me works at its best as a Draft event.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
If these were the Next 12 months of promos - no one would complain and your attendance would be skyrocketing
Oh, people would complain. They absolutely would. "Investors" who make singles sales their primary business and source of income would complain, and those are the same people who buy sealed product by the case. WOTC needs players, sure, but the sales come from the big stores. Those big stores also sell singles online, and too many high-end promos would crash the market. Personally, I think the market needs a crash, but it wouldn't be in WOTC's best interest to upset the people who buy the most sealed product.
Check and mate. I am not a big social media person, but this needs to go somewhere where these people can see these and be pressured to respond, and explain the circular logic (no pun intended) being given here.
WOTC seems to want to blame everyone but themselves for Standard's (and by extension, profit) decline
They want to "pass the
savingscost" onto us for THEIR f^%kups. Ridiculous.EDIT: BTW, if you want FNM to be casual(ish) again, bring back ELO ratings. The "Spike" players they don't want there wouldn't dare losing a bye from a rating drop from losing to a random. Planeswalker Points are stupid as hell anyway. Not like you get anything for them, really...
Third - THIS IS A BIG ONE - The Investors get these promos first before they give them out to anybody.. They could (and some do) make multiple changes to FNM when the promos were nice (like PTE and Serum Visions). Most of the LGS around started charging 8 to 10 dollars for FNM but they did 2.5-3 packs per person prize support and or a slice of pizza or free drink etc.
I can guarantee my LGS would take advantage of the "Valuable" Promo... like 1 pack prize support instead of 2 or raise FNM cost but ofset it with other value.
Last i know a few shops that are supposed to give promos to top 8 but they only do top 4...i wonder what these investors i mean shops do with the others???
I feel like I need to answer a lot of misunderstanding in your post as a whole because I think you and those of us complaining are really on the same page, you just feel like you want to stand on the WotC side of the line.
As a business, your marketing department's purpose is to find out what potential and current customers like and offer them as close as you can get or something similar to hold and increase your sales/attendance. When I say 'you cater to what they want' I'm not saying selfishly 'I'm important', I'm saying 'marketing department, make sensible decisions to increase your engaged, interested, and new players'.
My LGS FNM is casual but I expect to face Top 8 decks because netdecking is a thing. And that's ok, it raises my game to brew and be able to beat those decks. That very same FNM has gone from 30 players every Friday to around 8 to 12 for standard, meanwhile Modern is the exact opposite. I even haven't played as much because the utter failure of a format has been brewproof an no I don't want to lose to another CoCo turn 4, or cat combo instawin even one more time.
Standard dumpster fire x decision to shorten rotation = about half quit and the other half invested in modern. That is completely Design/balance's fault.
Marketing shouldn't be trying to force the people they have left, who play and spend money, on different days or take away perceived rewards when they are already under duress because they very well might lose more. Whether because young newer players can't stay up as late on Fridays, or engaged and interested players have their schedules, or any other reasons you don't further alienate what you barely have left. That is common sense.
It isn't our job to 'come up with something' for WotC to do. They aren't going to listen anyways. People complaining about how it affects them personally is important DATA that should make the marketing department pay attention but when the decisions they make are so bloody awful and unsupported by facts and their explanations are so contradictory how you or WotC expect anything but outrage?
How about just keeping FNM as it is and adding rewards (tokens whatever) to Showdowns and making those the learner thing? There, problem solved. WotC, fix it.
My shop gives 1st and 2nd a promo and then 2 random people. You're only allowed one per event so if 1st got a random they bump it down and 3rd will get one.
It's a nice system where just by playing you have a chance to get one. Still $5 entry.