It's a very chaotic toolbox deck with some Goblin tribal elements, creatures with good "enters the battlefield" (ETB) abilities, and cards that use opponents' game plans against them. The goal here was to create an interesting deck with lots of different ways to win that plays differently every game.
Grenzo's ability generates card advantage and value. The interesting thing here is that it's (almost) completely random. That being said, I wanted to make a deck where this randomness was somehow controlled, meaning that I wanted to have a more than a 50% chance to put a creature on the battlefield when I activate Grenzo's ability. This means two things:
1. All creatures in the deck have a power of 3 or less so that they can all be put onto the battlefield with Grenzo's ability if I cast him for X=1. 2. The deck contains more than 50 creatures.
That being said, the deck also runs some tutors and graveyard shenanigans to try to bring some consistency to the randomness.
The Commander: Pros and Cons
Why play this Grenzo, Dungeon Warden list?
You want a commander that generates value. With Grenzo, it's a value party. The ability to put a creature from your deck onto the battlefield, even if it's a random one, is incredible, expecially considering that mana cost doesn't matter.
You like toolbox decks. This deck has a ton of possible ways to deal with threats while also having very serious ones of its own. It makes it very interesting to play as it can adapt to basically any situation with surprising efficiency. It also includes a lot of effects that depend on our opponent's resources such as Puppeteer Clique, Mindclaw Shaman or Gonti, Lord of Luxury.
You don't mind winning with infinite combos. My playgroup, myself included, has a problem with super reliable infinite combos. However, even if there are some in this deck, the only ways they can be set up is through the randomness of Grenzo's flips and a few creatures that tutor. It's all up to what I draw and what Grenzo flips. This makes every activation of his ability even more interesting and suspenseful in my opinion.
You like explosive turns and wins that come out of nowhere. Empty hand? Empty board except for Grenzo? All seems lost? Fear not, the mighty dungeon warden might just end up flipping the right cards for you to get right back in the game or even win on the spot!
Why not to play this Grenzo, Dungeon Warden list?
You dislike randomness or you need consistency. This deck doesn't run tutors other than a few creatures. It doesn't run a lot of card filtering or card draw.
You dislike creature based decks. More than half of the cards in this deck are creatures. The "spell" effects are stapled on creatures in the form of ETB effects, meaning that we don't have a lot of instant speed answers other than Grenzo's ability, which is random.
You dislike having specific vulnerabilities. Grenzo is a creature deck, making boardwipes such as Wrath of God very effective against it. Also, being in black and red colors makes it almost impossible to get rid of enchantments (except for Meteor Golem). Humility, for example, completely shuts this deck off.
You don't want to play infinite combos, or they are severely frowned upon in your playgroup. This deck can't get his combos out as reliably as a competitive deck, and that's intended. It does, however, have multiple ways to win through generating infinite value out of its cards, so if you want to avoid that at all costs, this might not be the deck for you.
To summarize, Grenzo, Dungeon Warden is a very interesting, chaotic, fun to play commander with some serious deck building restrictions and vulnerabilities. Despite those weaknesses, I think it makes a very exciting deck with tons of possible paths to victory. If you want a deck where every game is a different adventure, this might be the one for you.
Note: This isn't a budget list. If I end up working on this deck more, I will take time to make a budget version of this deck with replacement options.
Playing the deck, Card Analysis & Discussion
August 28th, 2018 edit: I was originally planning on writing this section myself when I first made the post. I've been inactive on these forums for almost a year, and during that time, snowfox54119 made a super detailed Grenzo primer that follows almost the same game plan and strategies as mine. If you're looking for tips on how to play the deck, just read the primer, it's very well done!
This combo can generate an infinite amount of hasty Zealous Conscripts before attacking for the win. Be careful of fog effects though! It's already a famous combo in many decks, but here is how it works in case you've never heard of it:
1. Have Kiki and Zealous Conscripts in play. 2. Tap Kiki to create a token that's a copy of the Conscript. 3. When the Conscript enters the battlefield, its ability trigger. Use that ability to "gain control" of Kiki (which doesn't do anything because you already control it) and untap it. 4. Repeat this process twenty-four billion times.
Then you attack to win.
This combo might seem simple to assemble, especially since I have some ways to tutor Kiki, but I don't have any ways to search for or draw the Conscripts. Will it happen, will it not? It's all up to chance!
Mimicked Murders
+ +
Those three cards can deal an infinite amount of damage to your opponents at instant speed.
1. Sacrifice Murderous Redcap to Viscera Seer. 2. The redcap's persist ability triggers, bringing it back to the battlefield with a -1/-1 counter on it. 3.Metallic Mimic, previously having named Goblin (or Assassin), puts a +1/+1 counter on the redcap that comes back. 4. As per the rules (rule 121.3), the +1/+1 counter and the -1/-1 counter on the redcap cancel each other out. 5. Having re-entered the battlefield as a 2/2, the redcap deals 2 damage to target creature or player. 6. Repeat until everyone but you is dead!
Don't forget that you can do this at instant speed.
Note: It's also possible to follow the same steps with Pitiless Plunderer instead of Pawn of Ulamog. Having both in play also doubles the interaction's efficiency.
This is technically not an infinite combo, but it statistically has a very, very high chance of putting the whole deck onto the battlefield, winning the game that way trough amother combo or just attacking the next turn.
This interaction also requires at least one other creature on the battlefield to get started.
1. Sacrifice the other creature to Ashnod's Altar, adding CC to your mana pool. 2.Pawn of Ulamog creates a 0/1 Eldrazi Scion token. 3. Spend the CC generated by the altar to activate Grenzo's ability. 4. If it flips a creature, you can repeat this process. Each success creates an extra Eldrazi Scion due to Pawn of Ulamog, which can be sacrificed to the altar to repeat the process again. 5. From there, you will probably find a way to win along the way. You'll have to be creative, as the creatures won't always flip in the same order and it can matter (for example in the previously explained mimicked murders combo.
Note: This has a chance not to work. Each other nontoken creature you have on the battlefield as you start increases your chance to net the whole deck. Even if you don't flip the whole deck, you'll probably end up generating a ton of card advantage and disrupt your opponents a lot in the process.
Each time I remove and add new cards to the deck list posted in the original post, I'll list them here as well as in a new post in the thread. If the changes aren't explained here, they probably will be in the post.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Doomsday & Tutors - I think I said it straight away in the original post: I want each game to be different with this deck, and I want the combos to happen "by accident" as possible ways to win the game. I don't want to play too many tutors, especially not doomsday which is a "1 card win" that I don't really like, similar to Tooth and Nail. Priests - I don't really understand the point of those. Flipping them with Grenzo means we can get another card, sure, but wouldn't we rather have another card straight away anyway? Maybe it's fun to copy them with Kiki or renimate them with Balthor? Maybe I'm missing something obvious? Heartsone - I will definitely include this card in the deck, it's awesome with Grenzo. Thanks for the suggestion, I missed that one! Hideaway lands - Those could also be good because they allow you to play with the bottom cards of your deck very effectively. Nice suggestion, I might include those as well!
The thing that bothers me the most about this card is that it has a power of 4 while all other creatures in my deck have 3 or less power so that they can all be flipped by a Grenzo that's cast for x=1. I guess that putting it in the graveyard and not returning it means I can reanimate it later with Balthor for an explosive kill? I might try it, it could be fun. I also love its synergy with Grenzo's ability because it makes creatures enter the battlefield from the graveyard.
Thank you both for your interest in the deck and your suggestions!
I think they tend to be part of infinite combos. Priest and grenzo and hearthstone and a sac outlet makes infinite mana if I am not mistaken, though that seems to be jumping through too a lot of hoops to get there.
I think they tend to be part of infinite combos. Priest and grenzo and hearthstone and a sac outlet makes infinite mana if I am not mistaken, though that seems to be jumping through too a lot of hoops to get there.
Oh, I see. Yeah, I don't really want to include more combos in this deck as I think I already run enough already.
Also, I played a game yesterday that I managed to win with Ashnod's Altar + Pawn of Ulamog + Grenzo, so I'm able to confirm that it can work. I managed to pull an opponent's Avenger of Zendikar from their graveyard with a Puppeteer Clique, creating me a ton of tokens I could then sac to the altar for even more value!
Also, small changes, following Artaud's suggestions:
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Yes they do, but I want to do as much as possible to increase my chances of flipping a creature with Grenzo's ability. As you might have noticed, most of the deck's cards are creatures because of that. The only noncreature cards I included greatly increase my chances to win, such as Ashnod's Altar.
Thanks for the suggestions nonetheless! If you think of anything else, please let me know!
I play a dedicated combo version of Grenzo. While our decks are different, they have a lot of similarities. A few cards that I've liked are cards that put a card from your yard on the bottom of your library: Soldevi Digger, Junktroller, Reito Lantern. Also Tel-Jilad Stylus is useful.
These all allow you to reuse some of your power powerful ETB effects, or to reuse some of your power powerful creatures if they get destroyed.
Canal Dredger and Junktroller have both been considered for the deck, but I prefered Epitaph Golem because its ability is unaffected by summoning sickness and it's usable multiple times in a turn provided you have mana for it. As for Clone Shell, it's on my "to be tested" list. It could be a very interesting toolbox card for this deck but I haven't really figured out what to cut to make room for it yet. I'd like to test it eventually though!
I play a dedicated combo version of Grenzo. While our decks are different, they have a lot of similarities. A few cards that I've liked are cards that put a card from your yard on the bottom of your library: Soldevi Digger, Junktroller, Reito Lantern. Also Tel-Jilad Stylus is useful.
These all allow you to reuse some of your power powerful ETB effects, or to reuse some of your power powerful creatures if they get destroyed.
Those are all great suggestions. I want to keep my list as creature heavy as possible, but I think I'd still like to try Tel-Jilad stylus eventually. It looks really fun to re-use an ETB ability for 2 when Grenzo is out!
Thank you both for your suggestions! If you have more, keep them coming
Whats your usual way of winning? Do you find yourself just attacking people and using ETB value or do you rely on your combos more?
Also I'm curious about the tribal elements. How have the goblins been working out for you?
Most of my last wins have been through flipping my entire library on the board with Grenzo and winning with one of the infinite combos. I remember also winning some games by playing them more like a control player and using my good ETB effects to live longer, then swigning for the kill on the last player with lots of goblins.
About the tribal elements, they have been really cool for me so far. The fact that Grenzo is a goblin himself really helps, especially if I flip a Lightning Crafter for example or to pump it with Goblin Chieftain or Mad Auntie (allowing me to cast it for 2). The goblin tutors are also very useful because most of my goblins are also utility creatures: Skirk Prospector is a sac outlet, Kiki-Jiki is either a combo piece or a value engine, Goblin Welder can recur Ashnod's Altar or my other useful artifacts, etc. Goblin Recruiter + scry is also cool since you can put the goblins on the bottom of your library for later Grenzo flips!
It was mid-late game and the Maelstrom Wanderer ends his or her turn. The Inalla player cycles a Vedalker Aethermage before end of turn, searching for a Wanderwine Prophets that would close the game hitting the Maelstrom player who had nothing on board (his wanderer got returned to hand in response to an attack during his turn). Both the Brago player and the Wanderer player were all tapped out, but I had six untapped lands and Grenzo on the field. I figured I could try to flip a card in response to the first champion ability to exile the prophets, and who comes to the rescue? Faceless Butcher! So, the threat had been neutralized. The Inalla player then casts Ashnod's Altar and passes the turn.
The Brago player then takes his or her turn and proceeds to swing with a Lightning Greaved Brago. He had previously attached a Reality Acid on my Grenzo, so I responded to the attack and flipped another card to see if I could do something. Zealous Conscripts shows up! I stole the Inalla player's Ashnod's Altar and proceeded to sac creatures to flip more cards until I could get Tuktuk Scrapper that destroyed the boots, followed by a Duplicant on Brago. I managed to get some cool ETB effects in the process such as a Puppeteer Clique reanimating a Sun Titan from the Brago player's graveyard that brought back my Nykthos for even more mana. By the end of the turn, both Kiki-Jiki and Zealous Conscripts were in my graveyard and I won during my turn with Epitaph Golem and Grenzo brigning them both into play. It was a super fun game and everyone was cheering when I flipped the right cards at the right time: Grenzo couldn't have had better timing!
And finally, to conclude this long post, here are some changes I'm making to the list:
In
+ Anger: Replacement for Goblin Warchief. I have enough sac outlets to manage to have it in the graveyard reliably.
+ Silent Arbiter: My deck can have lots of creatures, but I noticed that I had a weakness against decks that attacked with lots of small dudes, so I figured I could use this card to slow games down.
+ Phyrexian Delver: More graveyard recursion for more cool ETB effects.
Really glad to see this being worked on, one of my favorite cards/chracters. Looks great! You should try and keep a change log. I also feel like Silent Arbiter isnt the best choice. I think there are better cards to play if you are worried about being attacked. Crawlspace is an option, Kazuul. Also, the other Grenzo would make an awesome addition.
Really glad to see this being worked on, one of my favorite cards/chracters. Looks great! You should try and keep a change log. I also feel like Silent Arbiter isnt the best choice. I think there are better cards to play if you are worried about being attacked. Crawlspace is an option, Kazuul. Also, the other Grenzo would make an awesome addition.
Thanks for your interest, I appreciate it
As for Silent Arbiter, I agree that it might not be the best option yet, but even though I've played a few games with the deck since my last update, I never got to try it so I'll at least wait to see how it performs before considering to change it for something else.
As for Crawlspace & Kazuul, I'm trying to maximize the hit rate of Grenzo's ability in this deck by keeping most of my cards as 3- power creatures, which is why I considered the arbiter first!
Changelog: That's what the second post is for, but I haven't had time to edit it to make it into a changelog yet
Some notes after my few games:
- Tel-Jilad Stylus, although not a creature, could definitely fit in this deck. I want to make room for it as it allows me to re-use a useful ETB trigger once per turn. It's also really useful if someone steals one of my creatures. And I have a foil one I really want to play with hehe. I definitely expect to try that card in the next update.
- One of black/red's greatest weaknesses is getting rid of enchantments. If anyone has an idea that could help me in this deck, please let me know. I'm even considering Chaos Warp even though it's not a creature only because it could be my only way to get rid of enchantments
- I could use 1 or 2 more flying creatures. I lost a game just getting repeatedly punched in the face by some 5/5 dragon only because I was the only one without an untapped flying blocker among my 15 creatures on the board, and I didn't like that. Having more flying is one of the reasons why I picked Marsh Flitter over Beetleback Chief, but even then it might not be enough.
So, I expect to make some changes to the deck soon but I'm not 100% sure what I'll change yet. I'm also always opened to suggestions
- One of black/red's greatest weaknesses is getting rid of enchantments. If anyone has an idea that could help me in this deck, please let me know. I'm even considering Chaos Warp even though it's not a creature only because it could be my only way to get rid of enchantments
Not a lot of options. For creatures: Mesmeric Fiend, Brain Maggot, Kitesail Freebooter would work if you know who to target and can get them down early enough. Once resolved, your guess is as good as mine.
A big change I'm planning of making shortly is removing Goblin Matron in favor of Imperial Recruiter. I've been wanting to trade for one of these ever since M25 got spoiled and I really want to get one very soon in case it spikes uncontrollably in the future.
Here are some other short term updates I plan on making:
Manakin -> Soldevi Adnate : I didn't even know that card existed until yesterday but it would definitely be awesome in this deck.
Myr Retriever -> Junk Diver : I think the latter is better because of the added utility of flying. The extra mana in the cost is almost irrelevant in my opinion since both cost "one grenzo activation" anyway most of the times.
Find room for Workhorse. I've been very impressed with the Priests since I added them to the deck, they're basically a free creature that can be used as sac fodder and that also give an extra mana.
Graven Cairns, Sulfurous Springs & Chrome Mox: More color versatility. I removed a land to add Chrome Mox because we're still at 36 lands, which is okay for this deck. I'm even considering maybe dropping to 35, but I'm not sure.
Drownyard Temple & Dakmor Salvage: Those two lands are really good in this deck because their recursion abilities mean that you don't mind flipping them in the yard with Grenzo. Drownyard Temple ramps you if it happens, and Dakmor Salvage adds cards to the yard with Delve, which is sometomes relevant in this deck. I didn't want one more land that entered tapped though, so I cut Bojuka Bog to add the Salvage.
Zhalfirin Void: Another colorless source, but the scry ability and the fact that it enters untapped make it worth adding to the deck.
Avalanche Riders replaced Goblin Baboons for land destruction. The echo ability is almost a bonus for this deck because we like when our creatures go to the graveyard.
Junk Diver replaced Myr Retriever. The increased cost is worth the versatility in my opinion.
Corpse Connoisseur has been taken out because I didn't like flipping him. I never knew what to tutor for and if I couldn't use the card immediately, it would get exiled from my graveyard anyway because there are lots of grave hate effects in my meta. I replaced it with Deathbringer Thoctar.
It's a very chaotic toolbox deck with some Goblin tribal elements, creatures with good "enters the battlefield" (ETB) abilities, and cards that use opponents' game plans against them. The goal here was to create an interesting deck with lots of different ways to win that plays differently every game.
Grenzo's ability generates card advantage and value. The interesting thing here is that it's (almost) completely random. That being said, I wanted to make a deck where this randomness was somehow controlled, meaning that I wanted to have a more than a 50% chance to put a creature on the battlefield when I activate Grenzo's ability. This means two things:
1. All creatures in the deck have a power of 3 or less so that they can all be put onto the battlefield with Grenzo's ability if I cast him for X=1.
2. The deck contains more than 50 creatures.
That being said, the deck also runs some tutors and graveyard shenanigans to try to bring some consistency to the randomness.
Why play this Grenzo, Dungeon Warden list?
- You want a commander that generates value. With Grenzo, it's a value party. The ability to put a creature from your deck onto the battlefield, even if it's a random one, is incredible, expecially considering that mana cost doesn't matter.
- You like toolbox decks. This deck has a ton of possible ways to deal with threats while also having very serious ones of its own. It makes it very interesting to play as it can adapt to basically any situation with surprising efficiency. It also includes a lot of effects that depend on our opponent's resources such as Puppeteer Clique, Mindclaw Shaman or Gonti, Lord of Luxury.
- You don't mind winning with infinite combos. My playgroup, myself included, has a problem with super reliable infinite combos. However, even if there are some in this deck, the only ways they can be set up is through the randomness of Grenzo's flips and a few creatures that tutor. It's all up to what I draw and what Grenzo flips. This makes every activation of his ability even more interesting and suspenseful in my opinion.
- You like explosive turns and wins that come out of nowhere. Empty hand? Empty board except for Grenzo? All seems lost? Fear not, the mighty dungeon warden might just end up flipping the right cards for you to get right back in the game or even win on the spot!
Why not to play this Grenzo, Dungeon Warden list?1 Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
His thugs
1 Avalanche Riders
1 Dimir House Guard
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Priest of Gix
1 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1 Treasonous Ogre
1 Faceless Butcher
1 Leaden Myr
1 Marionette Master
1 Balthor the Defiled
1 Mad Auntie
1 Moggcatcher
1 Soldevi Adnate
1 Shriekmaw
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Silent Arbiter
1 Zealous Conscripts
1 Gonti, Lord of Luxury
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Whisper, Blood Liturgist
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Plague Myr
1 Anger
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Goblin Trashmaster
1 Phyrexian Delver
1 Workhorse
1 Pawn of Ulamog
1 Iron Myr
1 Priest of Urabrask
1 Pitiless Plunderer
1 Viscera Seer
1 Blood Artist
1 Burnished Hart
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Goblin Welder
1 Puppeteer Clique
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Meteor Golem
1 Millikin
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Mindclaw Shaman
1 Body Snatcher
1 Palladium Myr
1 Pilgrim's Eye
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Crypt Ghast
1 Mesmeric Fiend
1 Fleshwrither
1 Deathbringer Thoctar
1 Junk Diver
1 Marsh Flitter
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Epitaph Golem
1 Duplicant
1 Metallic Mimic
1 Ashnod's Altar
1 Sol Ring
1 Heartstone
1 Chrome Mox
His only trick
1 Dread Return
His territory
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Zhalfirin Void
1 Sulfurous Springs
1 Drownyard Temple
1 Graven Cairns
1 Dakmor Salvage
8 Swamp
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Blood Crypt
1 Spinerock Knoll
1 Buried Ruin
1 Bloodstained Mire
6 Mountain
1 Luxury Suite
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Command Tower
1 Temple of Malice
1 Canyon Slough
1 Polluted Delta
1 Great Furnace
1 Path of Ancestry
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Note: This isn't a budget list. If I end up working on this deck more, I will take time to make a budget version of this deck with replacement options.
You can find the primer here: https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/788436-grenzo-dungeon-warden-the-slot-machine-of-value
Interactions
This combo can generate an infinite amount of hasty Zealous Conscripts before attacking for the win. Be careful of fog effects though! It's already a famous combo in many decks, but here is how it works in case you've never heard of it:
2. Tap Kiki to create a token that's a copy of the Conscript.
3. When the Conscript enters the battlefield, its ability trigger. Use that ability to "gain control" of Kiki (which doesn't do anything because you already control it) and untap it.
4. Repeat this process twenty-four billion times.
This combo might seem simple to assemble, especially since I have some ways to tutor Kiki, but I don't have any ways to search for or draw the Conscripts. Will it happen, will it not? It's all up to chance!
Those three cards can deal an infinite amount of damage to your opponents at instant speed.
2. The redcap's persist ability triggers, bringing it back to the battlefield with a -1/-1 counter on it.
3. Metallic Mimic, previously having named Goblin (or Assassin), puts a +1/+1 counter on the redcap that comes back.
4. As per the rules (rule 121.3), the +1/+1 counter and the -1/-1 counter on the redcap cancel each other out.
5. Having re-entered the battlefield as a 2/2, the redcap deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
6. Repeat until everyone but you is dead!
Note: I put Viscera Seer there as part of the combo, but it also works with any sac outlet in the deck: Skirk Prospector, Ashnod's Altar, Dimir House Guard, Marsh Flitter, and Goblin Trashmaster (not instant speed though).
This interaction also requires at least one other creature on the battlefield to get started.
2. Pawn of Ulamog creates a 0/1 Eldrazi Scion token.
3. Spend the CC generated by the altar to activate Grenzo's ability.
4. If it flips a creature, you can repeat this process. Each success creates an extra Eldrazi Scion due to Pawn of Ulamog, which can be sacrificed to the altar to repeat the process again.
5. From there, you will probably find a way to win along the way. You'll have to be creative, as the creatures won't always flip in the same order and it can matter (for example in the previously explained mimicked murders combo.
Note: This has a chance not to work. Each other nontoken creature you have on the battlefield as you start increases your chance to net the whole deck. Even if you don't flip the whole deck, you'll probably end up generating a ton of card advantage and disrupt your opponents a lot in the process.
Custom set projects:
Aenyr: Art is Magic (100% done and fully draftable!)
Elestral: Astronomy, Weather and Duality (Currently in early design.)
Multiplayer commander decks
RGWU Bruse and Thrasios: Enchanted Alliance | BR Grenzo's Jail of Malevolence | RWU Shu Yun's Teachings | B Toshiro Umezawa's Eternal Journey | WU Ephara's City of Wonders
Avatar art by Stephan A. McGowan
Each time I remove and add new cards to the deck list posted in the original post, I'll list them here as well as in a new post in the thread. If the changes aren't explained here, they probably will be in the post.
Out
- Anathemancer
- Mountain
In
+ Heartstone
+ Spinerock Knoll
Out
- Deadeye Tracker
- Vulturous Aven
- Goblin Warchief
In
+ Anger
+ Silent Arbiter
+ Phyrexian Delver
I've finally updated the post to reflect the many changes that occurred during this last year.
I changed the Card Analysis section, adding a link to snowfox54119's excellent Grenzo primer.
I didn't really keep tabs of which cards I removed and I'm sorry about that, but here are some notable new cards: Pitiless Plunderer, Meteor Golem, the Priests, Fleshwrither, Magus of the Moon, Body Snatcher, and Whisper, Blood Liturgist.
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Goblin Matron
1 Revenous Baboons
1 Myr Retriever
1 Simiam Spirit Guide
1 Manakin
1 Corpse Connoisseur
1 Zhalfirin Void
1 Sulfurous Springs
1 Drownyard Temple
1 Graven Cairns
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Avalanche Riders
1 Junk Diver
1 Soldevi Adnate
1 Workhorse
1 Chrome Mox
1 Deathbringer Thoctar
Custom set projects:
Aenyr: Art is Magic (100% done and fully draftable!)
Elestral: Astronomy, Weather and Duality (Currently in early design.)
Multiplayer commander decks
RGWU Bruse and Thrasios: Enchanted Alliance | BR Grenzo's Jail of Malevolence | RWU Shu Yun's Teachings | B Toshiro Umezawa's Eternal Journey | WU Ephara's City of Wonders
Avatar art by Stephan A. McGowan
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Priests - I don't really understand the point of those. Flipping them with Grenzo means we can get another card, sure, but wouldn't we rather have another card straight away anyway? Maybe it's fun to copy them with Kiki or renimate them with Balthor? Maybe I'm missing something obvious?
Heartsone - I will definitely include this card in the deck, it's awesome with Grenzo. Thanks for the suggestion, I missed that one!
Hideaway lands - Those could also be good because they allow you to play with the bottom cards of your deck very effectively. Nice suggestion, I might include those as well! The thing that bothers me the most about this card is that it has a power of 4 while all other creatures in my deck have 3 or less power so that they can all be flipped by a Grenzo that's cast for x=1. I guess that putting it in the graveyard and not returning it means I can reanimate it later with Balthor for an explosive kill? I might try it, it could be fun. I also love its synergy with Grenzo's ability because it makes creatures enter the battlefield from the graveyard.
Thank you both for your interest in the deck and your suggestions!
Custom set projects:
Aenyr: Art is Magic (100% done and fully draftable!)
Elestral: Astronomy, Weather and Duality (Currently in early design.)
Multiplayer commander decks
RGWU Bruse and Thrasios: Enchanted Alliance | BR Grenzo's Jail of Malevolence | RWU Shu Yun's Teachings | B Toshiro Umezawa's Eternal Journey | WU Ephara's City of Wonders
Avatar art by Stephan A. McGowan
UBarrin, Master WizardU
USticher GeralfU
UIxidor, Reality SculptorU
UWNoyan Dar, Roil ShaperUW
Also, I played a game yesterday that I managed to win with Ashnod's Altar + Pawn of Ulamog + Grenzo, so I'm able to confirm that it can work. I managed to pull an opponent's Avenger of Zendikar from their graveyard with a Puppeteer Clique, creating me a ton of tokens I could then sac to the altar for even more value!
Also, small changes, following Artaud's suggestions:
Out
- Anathemancer
- Mountain
In
+ Heartstone
+ Spinerock Knoll
Custom set projects:
Aenyr: Art is Magic (100% done and fully draftable!)
Elestral: Astronomy, Weather and Duality (Currently in early design.)
Multiplayer commander decks
RGWU Bruse and Thrasios: Enchanted Alliance | BR Grenzo's Jail of Malevolence | RWU Shu Yun's Teachings | B Toshiro Umezawa's Eternal Journey | WU Ephara's City of Wonders
Avatar art by Stephan A. McGowan
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Thanks for the suggestions nonetheless! If you think of anything else, please let me know!
Custom set projects:
Aenyr: Art is Magic (100% done and fully draftable!)
Elestral: Astronomy, Weather and Duality (Currently in early design.)
Multiplayer commander decks
RGWU Bruse and Thrasios: Enchanted Alliance | BR Grenzo's Jail of Malevolence | RWU Shu Yun's Teachings | B Toshiro Umezawa's Eternal Journey | WU Ephara's City of Wonders
Avatar art by Stephan A. McGowan
UBarrin, Master WizardU
USticher GeralfU
UIxidor, Reality SculptorU
UWNoyan Dar, Roil ShaperUW
These all allow you to reuse some of your power powerful ETB effects, or to reuse some of your power powerful creatures if they get destroyed.
Currently Playing:
Multiplayer EDH Lists (click italics for a link to the thread!)
[Primer] Lord of Tresserhorn - Don't Tell Me What I Can't Do[Primer] Roon of the Hidden Realm - Rhino Blink
5 Color Tribal Guide (Slivers, Atogs, Allies, Spirits)
Also Playing (most decklists can be found on my profile)
MarathGeistKamahlGrenzoBolasThassaGitrog
PiratesZurVial Smasher&ThrasiosYennettJhoira(cEDH)Strix(Pauper)
Legacy: Maverick
Modern:
Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebearsThank you both for your suggestions! If you have more, keep them coming
Custom set projects:
Aenyr: Art is Magic (100% done and fully draftable!)
Elestral: Astronomy, Weather and Duality (Currently in early design.)
Multiplayer commander decks
RGWU Bruse and Thrasios: Enchanted Alliance | BR Grenzo's Jail of Malevolence | RWU Shu Yun's Teachings | B Toshiro Umezawa's Eternal Journey | WU Ephara's City of Wonders
Avatar art by Stephan A. McGowan
Also I'm curious about the tribal elements. How have the goblins been working out for you?
UBarrin, Master WizardU
USticher GeralfU
UIxidor, Reality SculptorU
UWNoyan Dar, Roil ShaperUW
About the tribal elements, they have been really cool for me so far. The fact that Grenzo is a goblin himself really helps, especially if I flip a Lightning Crafter for example or to pump it with Goblin Chieftain or Mad Auntie (allowing me to cast it for 2). The goblin tutors are also very useful because most of my goblins are also utility creatures: Skirk Prospector is a sac outlet, Kiki-Jiki is either a combo piece or a value engine, Goblin Welder can recur Ashnod's Altar or my other useful artifacts, etc. Goblin Recruiter + scry is also cool since you can put the goblins on the bottom of your library for later Grenzo flips!
I'd also like to report a very interesting game I've had with this deck last week. There was a Maelstrom Wanderer player, an Inalla, Archmage Ritualist player and a Brago, King Eternal player.
The Brago player then takes his or her turn and proceeds to swing with a Lightning Greaved Brago. He had previously attached a Reality Acid on my Grenzo, so I responded to the attack and flipped another card to see if I could do something. Zealous Conscripts shows up! I stole the Inalla player's Ashnod's Altar and proceeded to sac creatures to flip more cards until I could get Tuktuk Scrapper that destroyed the boots, followed by a Duplicant on Brago. I managed to get some cool ETB effects in the process such as a Puppeteer Clique reanimating a Sun Titan from the Brago player's graveyard that brought back my Nykthos for even more mana. By the end of the turn, both Kiki-Jiki and Zealous Conscripts were in my graveyard and I won during my turn with Epitaph Golem and Grenzo brigning them both into play. It was a super fun game and everyone was cheering when I flipped the right cards at the right time: Grenzo couldn't have had better timing!
And finally, to conclude this long post, here are some changes I'm making to the list:
- Deadeye Tracker
- Vulturous Aven
- Goblin Warchief
In
+ Anger: Replacement for Goblin Warchief. I have enough sac outlets to manage to have it in the graveyard reliably.
+ Silent Arbiter: My deck can have lots of creatures, but I noticed that I had a weakness against decks that attacked with lots of small dudes, so I figured I could use this card to slow games down.
+ Phyrexian Delver: More graveyard recursion for more cool ETB effects.
Custom set projects:
Aenyr: Art is Magic (100% done and fully draftable!)
Elestral: Astronomy, Weather and Duality (Currently in early design.)
Multiplayer commander decks
RGWU Bruse and Thrasios: Enchanted Alliance | BR Grenzo's Jail of Malevolence | RWU Shu Yun's Teachings | B Toshiro Umezawa's Eternal Journey | WU Ephara's City of Wonders
Avatar art by Stephan A. McGowan
As for Silent Arbiter, I agree that it might not be the best option yet, but even though I've played a few games with the deck since my last update, I never got to try it so I'll at least wait to see how it performs before considering to change it for something else.
As for Crawlspace & Kazuul, I'm trying to maximize the hit rate of Grenzo's ability in this deck by keeping most of my cards as 3- power creatures, which is why I considered the arbiter first!
Changelog: That's what the second post is for, but I haven't had time to edit it to make it into a changelog yet
Some notes after my few games:
- Tel-Jilad Stylus, although not a creature, could definitely fit in this deck. I want to make room for it as it allows me to re-use a useful ETB trigger once per turn. It's also really useful if someone steals one of my creatures. And I have a foil one I really want to play with hehe. I definitely expect to try that card in the next update.
- One of black/red's greatest weaknesses is getting rid of enchantments. If anyone has an idea that could help me in this deck, please let me know. I'm even considering Chaos Warp even though it's not a creature only because it could be my only way to get rid of enchantments
- I could use 1 or 2 more flying creatures. I lost a game just getting repeatedly punched in the face by some 5/5 dragon only because I was the only one without an untapped flying blocker among my 15 creatures on the board, and I didn't like that. Having more flying is one of the reasons why I picked Marsh Flitter over Beetleback Chief, but even then it might not be enough.
So, I expect to make some changes to the deck soon but I'm not 100% sure what I'll change yet. I'm also always opened to suggestions
Custom set projects:
Aenyr: Art is Magic (100% done and fully draftable!)
Elestral: Astronomy, Weather and Duality (Currently in early design.)
Multiplayer commander decks
RGWU Bruse and Thrasios: Enchanted Alliance | BR Grenzo's Jail of Malevolence | RWU Shu Yun's Teachings | B Toshiro Umezawa's Eternal Journey | WU Ephara's City of Wonders
Avatar art by Stephan A. McGowan
Not a lot of options. For creatures: Mesmeric Fiend, Brain Maggot, Kitesail Freebooter would work if you know who to target and can get them down early enough. Once resolved, your guess is as good as mine.
Currently Playing:
Multiplayer EDH Lists (click italics for a link to the thread!)
[Primer] Lord of Tresserhorn - Don't Tell Me What I Can't Do[Primer] Roon of the Hidden Realm - Rhino Blink
5 Color Tribal Guide (Slivers, Atogs, Allies, Spirits)
Also Playing (most decklists can be found on my profile)
MarathGeistKamahlGrenzoBolasThassaGitrog
PiratesZurVial Smasher&ThrasiosYennettJhoira(cEDH)Strix(Pauper)
Legacy: Maverick
Modern:
Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebearsI changed the Card Analysis section, adding a link to snowfox54119's excellent Grenzo primer.
I didn't really keep tabs of which cards I removed and I'm sorry about that, but here are some notable new cards: Pitiless Plunderer, Meteor Golem, the Priests, Fleshwrither, Magus of the Moon, Body Snatcher, and Whisper, Blood Liturgist.
A big change I'm planning of making shortly is removing Goblin Matron in favor of Imperial Recruiter. I've been wanting to trade for one of these ever since M25 got spoiled and I really want to get one very soon in case it spikes uncontrollably in the future.
Here are some other short term updates I plan on making:
Custom set projects:
Aenyr: Art is Magic (100% done and fully draftable!)
Elestral: Astronomy, Weather and Duality (Currently in early design.)
Multiplayer commander decks
RGWU Bruse and Thrasios: Enchanted Alliance | BR Grenzo's Jail of Malevolence | RWU Shu Yun's Teachings | B Toshiro Umezawa's Eternal Journey | WU Ephara's City of Wonders
Avatar art by Stephan A. McGowan
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Goblin Matron
1 Revenous Baboons
1 Myr Retriever
1 Simiam Spirit Guide
1 Manakin
1 Corpse Connoisseur
1 Zhalfirin Void
1 Sulfurous Springs
1 Drownyard Temple
1 Graven Cairns
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Avalanche Riders
1 Junk Diver
1 Soldevi Adnate
1 Workhorse
1 Chrome Mox
1 Deathbringer Thoctar
Custom set projects:
Aenyr: Art is Magic (100% done and fully draftable!)
Elestral: Astronomy, Weather and Duality (Currently in early design.)
Multiplayer commander decks
RGWU Bruse and Thrasios: Enchanted Alliance | BR Grenzo's Jail of Malevolence | RWU Shu Yun's Teachings | B Toshiro Umezawa's Eternal Journey | WU Ephara's City of Wonders
Avatar art by Stephan A. McGowan