If Counterspell had an IoK-like converted mana cost of 3 or less clause tacked on?
If Counterspell cantripped for the opponent or forced you to discard/exile another blue card from your hand as an additional cost, putting you down a card on net card advantage instead of trading 1 for 1?
Would you play Force Spike if it were legal, or is that too conditional like Mana Leak?
Would you play a Mana Leak variant that costs UU to counter it unless the opponent pays 4, or is that still too conditional like Mana Leak?
EDIT: In closing, which of those variants would you play above the staple-esque Mana Leak or a metagame card like Negate or Remove Soul or a more expensive variant like Cryptic Command?
However, after Modern became an actual format and WotC started spelling out what the format should be like, I started strongly doubting that we'll ever see Counterspell reprinted. First, as a format that doesn't rotate, Modern would keep Counterspell around forever if it were to be reprinted.
While I disagree that Modern is better without Counterspell I do think you have the right of it regarding reprinting. It is fine as it is, but it sets the floor for what all other future counter spells are based on too low for there to be any place for designers to go.
We've already established you feel Cancel is unplayable, yet Counterspell would be a staple of the format.
It would help counterspell suites. mana leak is a staple and it is only ok.
Would you play Counterspell if it had a Thoughtseize-like loss of life clause tacked on, maybe at 3 life?
3 life is way too much. As it stands I avoid running thoughtseize instead I run IoK because its conditions really don't matter very often.
If Counterspell cantripped for the opponent or forced you to discard another blue card as an additional cost, putting you down a card on net card advantage instead of trading 1 for 1?
If it was a free counterspell that did that sure. taking a counterspell that is almost too slow for the format already and adding a back-breaking clause to it would be just terrible. I mean look at deprive.
Only In decks that ran 8+ counterspells. So yes. It would be the only way to counter 1 drops in this format which is part of the reason why counterspells are kinda meh in this format.
Would you play a Mana Leak variant that costs UU to counter it unless the opponent pays 4, or is that still too conditional?
I would defiantly play it over mana leak in most decks although the extraU isn't really worth the 1.
I mana leak than can inefficiently scale would be good enough.
Like I said something like this that makes them pay an additional 1 for each additional blue you play.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
I see plenty of Control lists topping Modern dailies that have starting to fire up just fine without Counterspell. They don't need it. I like the idea that Control isn't just being handed a set of "no" cards. Pick the ones that work best for you, the ones that need building around, and make it work (other people have).
I see plenty of Control lists topping Modern dailies that have starting to fire up just fine without Counterspell. They don't need it. I like the idea that Control isn't just being handed a set of "no" cards. Pick the ones that work best for you, the ones that need building around, and make it work (other people have).
so this format has the best 1 drop of all time, the best 2 drop of all time, and the best 3 drop of all time yet blue decks can't have the what 10th best counterspell of all time?
We have had like 3 dailies fire and jund has won two. 1 zoo deck in the top 8, but that is probably because it was not played. 1 teachings deck and I midrange UW does not control make.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Lightning Bolt is fine in Modern, but its deployment in Standard had to happen with care. It could have warped a metagame; it was slotted into a core set that would exist within a Standard that could handle Lightning Bolt, but the card can be a bit oppressive in a different core set.
Similarly, Counterspell's deployment would have to be handled with appropriate care as well. Force Spike, not so much... although Force Spike is such an irritating card to play around, and could be such a drag in Limited, that Wizards is probably wary of reprinting it. Basically, those cards have to prove themselves in that they would bring something to all formats they're in; they're very powerful, so to get reprinted, they'd need to fit well in Limited and Standard.
Edit: The greatest three-drop of all time is nowhere in the same league of oppressiveness as the greatest counterspell of all time. Really, look some of the best 10 counterspells in no particular order:
The best counterspell is an incredibly oppressive card that snaps the format in half if it gets reprinted. Things that wouldn't be oppressive start at, what, the fifth best counter? And I think that between Remand, Cryptic Command, Pact of Negation, Mental Misstep, Spell Snare and so on, we must at least have one of the top ten.
Incidentally, if Force Spike would fix the format so much, why does Mana Tithe see almost zero play, even though getting turn-1 white mana is easy and you want to anyway for Path to Exile?
I think that's the point. Swords to Plowshares is too good because its a good answer early, middle, or late, and should therefore not be in Modern.
...
In the same way, ... Counterspell is too good because its a good answer early, middle, or late and should therefore not be in Modern.
Card X is too good because its a good answer early, middle or late and should therefore not be in Modern.
Where does this line of reasoning come from? I mean, who ever told you that Modern isn't supposed to have cards that can serve as good answers early, middle and late in the game?
so this format has the best 1 drop of all time, the best 2 drop of all time, and the best 3 drop of all time yet blue decks can't have the what 10th best counterspell of all time?
I think you intentionally under-value Counterspell here for the sake of your argument. If Counterspell was merely the 10th best counter of all time, what are the top 9? If you really think that, at least some of those nine are going to be Modern legal anyway.
Wizards seems to be of the mind that they don't want to see many Hard Permission style control decks and I agree with them.
Wizards seems to be of the mind that they don't want to see many Hard Permission style control decks and I agree with them.
There are lots of decks that I don't like to face, that make want to concede the moment I know what the decks is, but no matter how much I hate (note: hate does not = loose to) a deck I do not begrudge others who like them (and no, I do not auto concede). I understand that for a meta-game to be healthy it must have variety and not all of that variety is going to be my cup of tea. You say you agree with the position that there should not be many Hard Permission style control decks, so apparently you have no problem making a format less friendly to a group of players. That seems terribly selfish. You can want to win, and not be selfish at the same time.
I am pretty darn sick of hearing that Control just needs to realize that it cannot have a good win percentage against all archetypes, all the while Zoo has exactly that. Now, I do not think Zoo is unfair, but it seems like a double standard to expect Control to suck it up in a format where the most popular deck (according to worlds) does not. Zoo is not unwinable by a long ways, and I do not think it's cards should banned, but it does have a favorable match-up regardless of the archetype it faces, as evidenced by worlds. I do not want a blue-control dominant format, it does seem to me that there are some serious double-standards in the arguments. If Zoo has a good game against all the major decks it is annoying, but if a control (even worse a blue control) deck were to be in the same position many of you would be up in arms about how unfair it is.
That said, argument about Counterspell is going to drag this thread as much as such arguments have dragged down at least 4 other threads here on the first page. People should move on and discuss cards that have not been argued about for a decade.
I think an important point is that Wizards is not going to reprint things in Standard-legal sets just for the sake of the Modern metagame. Counterspell would have a lot of complicated ramifications in Standard, Block and Limited, and so it can't just be plopped in the next core set.
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On average, Magic players are worse at new card evaluation than almost every other skill, except perhaps sideboarding.
I just think that Zoo isn't as dominant as many people seem to think it is. And it may end up getting worse if it eats some ban hammer before the end of the year. Control still has ground to fight for and still has the tools to win. What I mean by not wanting Hard Permission style decks is that I don't want to see Modern spiral into a literal Legacy-lite type environment.
Lightning Bolt is fine in Modern, but its deployment in Standard had to happen with care. It could have warped a metagame; it was slotted into a core set that would exist within a Standard that could handle Lightning Bolt, but the card can be a bit oppressive in a different core set.
To be fair, lightning bolt raised the bar for creatures. Alot of people say the reprint of lightning bolt has caused the power creep in creatures. before lightning bolt was reprinted a 2 drop 3/3 was huge to the game state. After lightning bolt was reprinted a 2 drop 3/3 couldnt even find room in most decks. Everything was x/4 or better being played.
That said, argument about Counterspell is going to drag this thread as much as such arguments have dragged down at least 4 other threads here on the first page. People should move on and discuss cards that have not been argued about for a decade.
Agreed. Someone can start a Single Card Discussion about that one if they want to keep going, but I'm over it.
When I started playing this game, Astral Slide and Lightning Rift were in some very cool and interestng decks. I'd love to see them pop up again. They were just in Alara block though, so I don't think its very likely they could be reprinted anytime soon.
EDIT: Cycling was just in Alara Block, but Slide and Rift weren't. I don't think they'll be reprinted anytime soon then because that wasn't too long ago and Wizards seems to like to spread out popular mechanics over time.
I think you intentionally under-value Counterspell here for the sake of your argument. If Counterspell was merely the 10th best counter of all time, what are the top 9? If you really think that, at least some of those nine are going to be Modern legal anyway.
Wizards seems to be of the mind that they don't want to see many Hard Permission style control decks and I agree with them.
FOW
Mana drain
daze
fore spike
CS
ok it is number 5, but when this format has the best creatures ever printed in it I should expect something better than mana leak to be the best counterspell in modern.
@CrazyMike366
astral slide was not in alara block..............
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
ok it is number 5, but when this format has the best creatures ever printed in it I should expect something better than mana leak to be the best counterspell in modern.
Not when Wotc has been going away from permission type decks since oh say Rav block, maybe even before.
I'd like to see some goblins reprinted, mainly goblin piledriver, gempalm incinerator and goblin warchief These cards would make goblins more playable without giving it too much. I would also like to see something reprinted for burn that would bring it up to speed with combo and zoo.
I think counterspell would be good for modern. It is appropriately costed and in no way unfair - it is a 1 for 1 always unless you catch your opponent with their pants down. Like someone mentioned earlier for 1 more you get to exile the card, so UU seems fair. Counters in this format are just bad atm. If not counterspell then print some kind of hard counter with a small drawback like thoughtseize. I'd even play Arcane Denial potentially.
The other thing I'd like to see is some decent card draw. Fact or Fiction, Accumulated Knowledge, something like that. Cards like Price of Progress would also be sweet and help keep Zoo and other greedy decks in check. Even Back to Basics would be neat to have. Something for tempo decks, too, even Temporal Spring. I have an unhealthy love for that card and I don't know why.
Edit: Ooh and Memory Lapse! And Daze! Daze would actually be great to have atm.
I am pretty darn sick of hearing that Control just needs to realize that it cannot have a good win percentage against all archetypes, all the while Zoo has exactly that.
Please note that there is a big difference between "Control" and "Permission" decks. (From reading your posts, I know you already know this distinction, but I'm going to state it anyway for others reading.) Permission is one subtype of Control deck, but it isn't the only subtype.
Decks playing control elements are healthy for a format in general. However, there are some specific subtypes of Control that have proven to be very UNhealthy for the game: Hard Permission (Draw-Go style), Land Destruction, and fast Prison decks. Even though these types of decks all have their fans, they make a format unfun for too many other people. And Wizards has (wisely) chosen to limit their power.
Now, I do not think Zoo is unfair, but it seems like a double standard to expect Control to suck it up in a format where the most popular deck (according to worlds) does not. Zoo is not unwinable by a long ways, and I do not think it's cards should banned, but it does have a favorable match-up regardless of the archetype it faces, as evidenced by worlds.
For this, you just have to step outside of your own perspective for a minute. Counterspells are one of the most widely hated mechanics in all of Magic. Even if you personally enjoy playing with or against them, many more people find them very, very unfun. In contrast, creature-based strategies are much more acceptable to play against for the general Magic playing population. This isn't just my opinion. There have been a number of articles and comments from WotC themselves stating this over the years.
For as much as people accuse WotC of ruining or biasing the format, what they are actually doing is listening to the majority of their customers and trying to make the format as good as possible for as many people as they can.
By the way, based on the Worlds results you're citing, Zoo does NOT have a favorable matchup against every deck or even every important deck. In particular, it fared poorly against Teachings (45%), Gifts (41%), Death Cloud (40%), Burn (38%), Jund (29%), and Melira (27%). (source)
I do not want a blue-control dominant format, it does seem to me that there are some serious double-standards in the arguments. If Zoo has a good game against all the major decks it is annoying, but if a control (even worse a blue control) deck were to be in the same position many of you would be up in arms about how unfair it is.
The critical difference between Zoo and the style of Control you're talking about is how they interact with an opponent. All of the Control subtypes I mentioned above are actively trying to stop the opponent from being able to play Magic by denying them spells, lands, or some other resource. That is why those Control decks are considered so unfun by so many people.
On the other hand, Zoo doesn't prevent you from doing much. It has some burn and creature removal, but for the most part its win strategy is not to stop the other person from playing Magic. That's one reason why WotC views it as the quintessential fair deck.
But even then, you have to keep in mind that WotC doesn't just let Aggro run completely rampant. In particular, the artifact lands are banned to slow down Affinity. I'm sure there would be more Aggro bans if necessary. However, historically speaking, Aggro has rarely been a real problem in any environment. The decks that make people quit playing Magic in large amounts are generally Combo and Control variations, with Affinity being the only exception I can think of off the top of my head. Thus the bannings.
Stifle: Dang it, I miss a good ability counter. It should also bring bi- or mono-colour decks back in vogue, as they won't be hit by 1-mana fetch LD so hard.
Price of Progress: An absolute beating against people who love nonbasic lands.
Cycling lands: I do want to see Aggro Loam as a contender in Modern, and I'm sure people can come up with creative uses for these things.
Riptide Laboratory: Building enough decks with Crystal Shard and Vedalken Mastermind as bad substitutes makes me want this land bad. This should push Teachings to the next level and otherwise encourage a lot of creative deck-building (or maybe just the return of Mono-U Wizards-Fae).
Wish cycle: Glittering Wish is fun and all, but I want a better toolkit.
Commander-only cards: Flusterstorm and Scavenging Ooze would be the best of the bunch, but Chaos Warp, Spell Crumple, and Edric, Spymaster of Trest ain't bad, and I was surprised that these cards weren't Modern-legal. (Okay, Spell Crumple being the counterspell Teachings can eternally search for is probably a little too much...)
And a cycle I'd like to see printed in Modern:
Enemy-coloured fastlands (like Darkslick Shores, but WB/UR/etc.): Maybe it's because I'm a fan of UR Storm, but this is the nonbasic land cycle decks like that have been waiting for. Print another allied-colour land cycle to compensate, but this is on my wish list.
Let's explore this line of thought.
We've already established you feel Cancel is unplayable, yet Counterspell would be a staple of the format.
Would you play Counterspell if it had a Thoughtseize-like loss of life clause tacked on, maybe at 3 life?
If Counterspell had a Path to Exile-like mana-advantage clause tacked on?
If Counterspell had an IoK-like converted mana cost of 3 or less clause tacked on?
If Counterspell cantripped for the opponent or forced you to discard/exile another blue card from your hand as an additional cost, putting you down a card on net card advantage instead of trading 1 for 1?
Would you play Force Spike if it were legal, or is that too conditional like Mana Leak?
Would you play a Mana Leak variant that costs UU to counter it unless the opponent pays 4, or is that still too conditional like Mana Leak?
EDIT: In closing, which of those variants would you play above the staple-esque Mana Leak or a metagame card like Negate or Remove Soul or a more expensive variant like Cryptic Command?
Speculate less. Test more.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
I would defiantly play it over mana leak in most decks although the extraU isn't really worth the 1.
I mana leak than can inefficiently scale would be good enough.
Like I said something like this that makes them pay an additional 1 for each additional blue you play.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
so this format has the best 1 drop of all time, the best 2 drop of all time, and the best 3 drop of all time yet blue decks can't have the what 10th best counterspell of all time?
We have had like 3 dailies fire and jund has won two. 1 zoo deck in the top 8, but that is probably because it was not played. 1 teachings deck and I midrange UW does not control make.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Similarly, Counterspell's deployment would have to be handled with appropriate care as well. Force Spike, not so much... although Force Spike is such an irritating card to play around, and could be such a drag in Limited, that Wizards is probably wary of reprinting it. Basically, those cards have to prove themselves in that they would bring something to all formats they're in; they're very powerful, so to get reprinted, they'd need to fit well in Limited and Standard.
Edit: The greatest three-drop of all time is nowhere in the same league of oppressiveness as the greatest counterspell of all time. Really, look some of the best 10 counterspells in no particular order:
The best counterspell is an incredibly oppressive card that snaps the format in half if it gets reprinted. Things that wouldn't be oppressive start at, what, the fifth best counter? And I think that between Remand, Cryptic Command, Pact of Negation, Mental Misstep, Spell Snare and so on, we must at least have one of the top ten.
Incidentally, if Force Spike would fix the format so much, why does Mana Tithe see almost zero play, even though getting turn-1 white mana is easy and you want to anyway for Path to Exile?
Card X is too good because its a good answer early, middle or late and should therefore not be in Modern.
Where does this line of reasoning come from? I mean, who ever told you that Modern isn't supposed to have cards that can serve as good answers early, middle and late in the game?
BRG Loam Control (Assault - Loam) BRG
W Mono White Control (Martyr - Proc) W
I think you intentionally under-value Counterspell here for the sake of your argument. If Counterspell was merely the 10th best counter of all time, what are the top 9? If you really think that, at least some of those nine are going to be Modern legal anyway.
Wizards seems to be of the mind that they don't want to see many Hard Permission style control decks and I agree with them.
I am pretty darn sick of hearing that Control just needs to realize that it cannot have a good win percentage against all archetypes, all the while Zoo has exactly that. Now, I do not think Zoo is unfair, but it seems like a double standard to expect Control to suck it up in a format where the most popular deck (according to worlds) does not. Zoo is not unwinable by a long ways, and I do not think it's cards should banned, but it does have a favorable match-up regardless of the archetype it faces, as evidenced by worlds. I do not want a blue-control dominant format, it does seem to me that there are some serious double-standards in the arguments. If Zoo has a good game against all the major decks it is annoying, but if a control (even worse a blue control) deck were to be in the same position many of you would be up in arms about how unfair it is.
That said, argument about Counterspell is going to drag this thread as much as such arguments have dragged down at least 4 other threads here on the first page. People should move on and discuss cards that have not been argued about for a decade.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Um. False.
Please don't talk about formats you obviously don't play
Please don't talk about people you obviously don't know.
Take a look at scg open top8s.
To be fair, lightning bolt raised the bar for creatures. Alot of people say the reprint of lightning bolt has caused the power creep in creatures. before lightning bolt was reprinted a 2 drop 3/3 was huge to the game state. After lightning bolt was reprinted a 2 drop 3/3 couldnt even find room in most decks. Everything was x/4 or better being played.
Agreed. Someone can start a Single Card Discussion about that one if they want to keep going, but I'm over it.
When I started playing this game, Astral Slide and Lightning Rift were in some very cool and interestng decks. I'd love to see them pop up again. They were just in Alara block though, so I don't think its very likely they could be reprinted anytime soon.
EDIT: Cycling was just in Alara Block, but Slide and Rift weren't. I don't think they'll be reprinted anytime soon then because that wasn't too long ago and Wizards seems to like to spread out popular mechanics over time.
Speculate less. Test more.
FOW
Mana drain
daze
fore spike
CS
ok it is number 5, but when this format has the best creatures ever printed in it I should expect something better than mana leak to be the best counterspell in modern.
@CrazyMike366
astral slide was not in alara block..............
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Not when Wotc has been going away from permission type decks since oh say Rav block, maybe even before.
The other thing I'd like to see is some decent card draw. Fact or Fiction, Accumulated Knowledge, something like that. Cards like Price of Progress would also be sweet and help keep Zoo and other greedy decks in check. Even Back to Basics would be neat to have. Something for tempo decks, too, even Temporal Spring. I have an unhealthy love for that card and I don't know why.
Edit: Ooh and Memory Lapse! And Daze! Daze would actually be great to have atm.
Modern: Jund, Wafo-Tapa UWR
Legacy: Witch-Maw Stoneblade
EDH: Ruhan of the Fomori, Hazezon Tamar, Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Lightning Rift+Cycling lands
Fire/ice
Life/Death
Cabal Therapy
Memory Lapse
Arcane Denial
Ravenous Baloth
Exalted Angel
Disrupt
Nimble Mongoose
Tireless Tribe
Putrid Imp
Wish cycle
Dreams cycle
Divert
Gilded Drake
Ankh of Mishra
Opposition
Probably a few more. Too lazy to think of them.
Misdirection
Price of Progress
Wild Mongrel
Firebolt
Cabal Therapy
Living Wish
Burning Wish
Cunning Wish
A better black and white wish
Please note that there is a big difference between "Control" and "Permission" decks. (From reading your posts, I know you already know this distinction, but I'm going to state it anyway for others reading.) Permission is one subtype of Control deck, but it isn't the only subtype.
Decks playing control elements are healthy for a format in general. However, there are some specific subtypes of Control that have proven to be very UNhealthy for the game: Hard Permission (Draw-Go style), Land Destruction, and fast Prison decks. Even though these types of decks all have their fans, they make a format unfun for too many other people. And Wizards has (wisely) chosen to limit their power.
For this, you just have to step outside of your own perspective for a minute. Counterspells are one of the most widely hated mechanics in all of Magic. Even if you personally enjoy playing with or against them, many more people find them very, very unfun. In contrast, creature-based strategies are much more acceptable to play against for the general Magic playing population. This isn't just my opinion. There have been a number of articles and comments from WotC themselves stating this over the years.
For as much as people accuse WotC of ruining or biasing the format, what they are actually doing is listening to the majority of their customers and trying to make the format as good as possible for as many people as they can.
By the way, based on the Worlds results you're citing, Zoo does NOT have a favorable matchup against every deck or even every important deck. In particular, it fared poorly against Teachings (45%), Gifts (41%), Death Cloud (40%), Burn (38%), Jund (29%), and Melira (27%). (source)
The critical difference between Zoo and the style of Control you're talking about is how they interact with an opponent. All of the Control subtypes I mentioned above are actively trying to stop the opponent from being able to play Magic by denying them spells, lands, or some other resource. That is why those Control decks are considered so unfun by so many people.
On the other hand, Zoo doesn't prevent you from doing much. It has some burn and creature removal, but for the most part its win strategy is not to stop the other person from playing Magic. That's one reason why WotC views it as the quintessential fair deck.
But even then, you have to keep in mind that WotC doesn't just let Aggro run completely rampant. In particular, the artifact lands are banned to slow down Affinity. I'm sure there would be more Aggro bans if necessary. However, historically speaking, Aggro has rarely been a real problem in any environment. The decks that make people quit playing Magic in large amounts are generally Combo and Control variations, with Affinity being the only exception I can think of off the top of my head. Thus the bannings.
Stifle: Dang it, I miss a good ability counter. It should also bring bi- or mono-colour decks back in vogue, as they won't be hit by 1-mana fetch LD so hard.
Price of Progress: An absolute beating against people who love nonbasic lands.
Cycling lands: I do want to see Aggro Loam as a contender in Modern, and I'm sure people can come up with creative uses for these things.
Riptide Laboratory: Building enough decks with Crystal Shard and Vedalken Mastermind as bad substitutes makes me want this land bad. This should push Teachings to the next level and otherwise encourage a lot of creative deck-building (or maybe just the return of Mono-U Wizards-Fae).
Wish cycle: Glittering Wish is fun and all, but I want a better toolkit.
Commander-only cards: Flusterstorm and Scavenging Ooze would be the best of the bunch, but Chaos Warp, Spell Crumple, and Edric, Spymaster of Trest ain't bad, and I was surprised that these cards weren't Modern-legal. (Okay, Spell Crumple being the counterspell Teachings can eternally search for is probably a little too much...)
And a cycle I'd like to see printed in Modern:
Enemy-coloured fastlands (like Darkslick Shores, but WB/UR/etc.): Maybe it's because I'm a fan of UR Storm, but this is the nonbasic land cycle decks like that have been waiting for. Print another allied-colour land cycle to compensate, but this is on my wish list.