Pretty much any card that gives the opponent choices is going to end up not giving you what you want. Look at Gifts Ungiven! It was changed to be able to NOT give the opponent a choice and is no playable!
The Devil can be played, but there are probably more consistent options that you can be using because the opponent will take life when they have a lot to spare (or take more than one hit from the Devil) and will take the creature when they can remove it.
The first two are modern legal, and because of the nature of this card specifically--choice is an illusion unless you mess it up. The worst piles are the ones where the combo gets half assembled when you untap (like with academy ruins or noxious revival are in the pile, delaying your assemblage a turn), and straight value piles are great and sometimes common--just have four relevant targets for the situation you're trying to address.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I meant it as Gifts was printed to say "Search your library for four cards with different names, etc..." and was changed to say "Search your library for up to four cards with different names, etc...". I meant that because of the change it became moreplayable because you could get around the opponents choice aspect of it if need be, ie: Unburial Rites + Iona, Shield of Emeria.
This thread is for Vexing Devil though. I was just trying to use Gifts as an example of how limiting the choices the opponent can make (ie none with choosing only 2 cards) can make the card better. Therefor less choices for opponent = better cards.
Just as an info - it wasn't changed at all -> because of some weird rules you were able to search only 2 things with the first printing as well, they just made it more obvious on the newer printing. I think (I'm no judge so I could be missing something) that the point was that noone can force you to find stuff when searching, so you search up 2 cards and say that you fail to find more cards with different names and that was legal with the original printing.
I hadn't concidered it as a cheap ferocious enabler. The crappy part about that is that there aren't any good ferocious cards outside of Stubborn Denial.
Well, Suicide Zoo plays Temur Battle Rage. But I think they'll stick to Kird Ape as their 1-drop red creature. If your hand is full of pump spells and only 1 creature, you'd rather that creature be an Ape than a Devil.
Yeah that deck can be blazingly fast. Who would have known that Berserk for double the mana would still be good? They basically need between 1-3 creatures on the field at any given time.
The thing about Vexing Devil that most people realize is this. R for a 4/3 creature is broken. R for a Lava Spike + 1 is pretty amazing. But, the option of either one falling on one's opponent makes the card barely playable and probably not playable in this current metagame.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Thing is, whereas VD is only as strong as the option that's most advantageous to the other player, there's this card called Monastery Swiftspear who will turn whatever promises of quick one-of damage that VD has into guarantees of repeated bursts of Prowess-boosted facepunchery.
That said, if you want to have a fun time, try pairing VD with Proclamation of Rebirth. Surely resurrecting up to three of them in one go should bait the opponent into making really bad plays.
What inconsistency? Burn wants 3 damage from each card, and the "inconsistency" you're talking about is getting 4 damage from the card instead of the creature. Opening a favourable line of play is upside over over Nacatl, not downside. Perhaps you could elaborate on why VD is more inconsistent than Nacatl?
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I think they play Wild Nacatl in the hopes that he will be a "double Lightning Bolt" by attacking twice. Vexing Devil won't do that. I think that is the reason in theory that they play Wild Nacatl, similar to Delver of Secrets being a "recurring Lightning Bolt" in Legacy decks. That being said, I personally don't like those Burn lists because, similar to Vexing Devil, sometimes you get a double Bolt or better, but sometimes you get a creature the turn before they kill you. I don't think it's the card for a Burn deck, although it's certainly not horrible.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I think you guys have correctly pointed out that the damage ceiling of turn 1 nacatl vs turn 1 devil is the most important difference, trumping the upside of devil. Thanks guys.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I realize I'm a little late to this thread...but I've tried somewhat hard to find VD a home in modern and the best I've come up with is something along the lines of "Bushwacker Zoo"...this was the best I could do. I have a LOT of fun playing it, and getting value from VD on Experiment One is great. Overall, I found VD to be MUCH better in Zoo than Burn.
I realize I'm a little late to this thread...but I've tried somewhat hard to find VD a home in modern and the best I've come up with is something along the lines of "Bushwacker Zoo"...this was the best I could do. I have a LOT of fun playing it, and getting value from VD on Experiment One is great. Overall, I found VD to be MUCH better in Zoo than Burn.
Simply put, cards that give your opponent choices are very bad. You want to destroy their lines of play not open up new ones.
But this isn't always true as Tasigur, the golden fang's ability is about opponent's choice and yet it is herald as being a great ability. I think people are being a little to narrow minded with this card. It has been proven to be bad in burn yes, but what about a deck like zoo which can get him out via Collected company?
Tasigur is good because it is goyf number 5-6. The recursion is sometimes nice, sometimes garbage. You run it because it is a 1 mana 4/5, that is always going to be good.
I'm talking about the ability not the creature. The ability is regarded as good even though the opponent picks.
Tasigur's ability is good because it gives you repeatable card advantage when you have nothing else to do with your mana. The fact that the opponent gets to choose the least valuable card isn't as relevant compared to Vexing Devil where your opponent can completely dodge taking any damage if they have a removal spell.
The lesson to take away from Vexing Devil is that a card can look good, get hyped like crazy, and then be absolutely outclassed by other options out there or end up in a very niche role. That's the kind of fate I'm expecting with some of the cards from SoI right now. The best option for the 1 cmc spot that is in dire need of reprinting is probably Goblin Guide. One of the best goblins ever printed in modern and probably the best one drop that all others are held up to outside of Goblin Lackey, which is just bonkers and should totally be reprinted for modern.
To really use Vexing Devil, you have to find a way to make it so that the card being sacrificed vs leaving it in play are both bad choices for the opponent. Having things like Zulaport Cutthroat and Blood Artist can help with that, along with running creature boosting planeswalkers like Elspeth Knight Errant, Arlinn Kord, or other options.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I think it's alright in an aggro deck where you're running so many creatures that your opponent will run out of removal anyway. I.e. it's good in Gruul Zoo (Burning-Tree Emissary/Atarka's Command) where you're running 30-ish creatures and the reach is relevant (and it evolves Experiment One as a cute bonus), but it straight up sucks in Burn.
People love telling me how bad it is when I play it though, everyone turns educational on my ass when I cast it. Makes it even sweeter when they die to it.
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When I hit my 3000 post mark, I'm gone for good.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
The lesson to take away from Vexing Devil is that a card can look good, get hyped like crazy, and then be absolutely outclassed by other options out there or end up in a very niche role. That's the kind of fate I'm expecting with some of the cards from SoI right now. The best option for the 1 cmc spot that is in dire need of reprinting is probably Goblin Guide. One of the best goblins ever printed in modern and probably the best one drop that all others are held up to outside of Goblin Lackey, which is just bonkers and should totally be reprinted for modern.
To really use Vexing Devil, you have to find a way to make it so that the card being sacrificed vs leaving it in play are both bad choices for the opponent. Having things like Zulaport Cutthroat and Blood Artist can help with that, along with running creature boosting planeswalkers like Elspeth Knight Errant, Arlinn Kord, or other options.
Except this card has put up results in modern in Gruul zoo unlike other hyped cards so maybe the card is good.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
The lesson to take away from Vexing Devil is that a card can look good, get hyped like crazy, and then be absolutely outclassed by other options out there or end up in a very niche role. That's the kind of fate I'm expecting with some of the cards from SoI right now. The best option for the 1 cmc spot that is in dire need of reprinting is probably Goblin Guide. One of the best goblins ever printed in modern and probably the best one drop that all others are held up to outside of Goblin Lackey, which is just bonkers and should totally be reprinted for modern.
To really use Vexing Devil, you have to find a way to make it so that the card being sacrificed vs leaving it in play are both bad choices for the opponent. Having things like Zulaport Cutthroat and Blood Artist can help with that, along with running creature boosting planeswalkers like Elspeth Knight Errant, Arlinn Kord, or other options.
Except this card has put up results in modern in Gruul zoo unlike other hyped cards so maybe the card is good.
Probably just hasn't found the right shell yet. There's a lot of cards in the modern pool that I think are good, just they haven't found homes yet either due to stiff competition or a lack of options.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The lesson to take away from Vexing Devil is that a card can look good, get hyped like crazy, and then be absolutely outclassed by other options out there or end up in a very niche role. That's the kind of fate I'm expecting with some of the cards from SoI right now. The best option for the 1 cmc spot that is in dire need of reprinting is probably Goblin Guide. One of the best goblins ever printed in modern and probably the best one drop that all others are held up to outside of Goblin Lackey, which is just bonkers and should totally be reprinted for modern.
To really use Vexing Devil, you have to find a way to make it so that the card being sacrificed vs leaving it in play are both bad choices for the opponent. Having things like Zulaport Cutthroat and Blood Artist can help with that, along with running creature boosting planeswalkers like Elspeth Knight Errant, Arlinn Kord, or other options.
Except this card has put up results in modern in Gruul zoo unlike other hyped cards so maybe the card is good.
Probably just hasn't found the right shell yet. There's a lot of cards in the modern pool that I think are good, just they haven't found homes yet either due to stiff competition or a lack of options.
What are you talking about? This card has already seen success in gruul zoo so it has found the right shell people just aren't playing small zoo as much.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
It's really good in Gruul zoo, because when played right it almost always does something you want. You play a ton of creatures and some damage spells, looking to close game quickly. 4 dmg on the play turn 1 is really good. You can also play it turn 2 from BTE mana (perfect case scenario is like t1 Experiment one, turn 2 Burning-tree Emissary->wild nacatl->vexing devil and evolve E1 to 4/4). It's good on turn 3 with Reckless bushwhacker, because it's take 4, or take 5 plus let minion stay on the board unless you have bolt, which you problaby should have used turn before. I think it's really good in Gruul Zoo.
the experiment one trigger is so insane to me after a BTE
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Vexing devil is still good in burn, it basically reads :
R:
your opponent chooses one
- deal 4 damage to target opp
- destroy target creature
- fetch a basic land
as you gonna either deal damage, trade for something or it gonna get pathed
It is still one of the better first drops for burn. Late game, though, it's not as good, but still, playing 2 or 3 of them in burn is still something real.
Just as an info - it wasn't changed at all -> because of some weird rules you were able to search only 2 things with the first printing as well, they just made it more obvious on the newer printing. I think (I'm no judge so I could be missing something) that the point was that noone can force you to find stuff when searching, so you search up 2 cards and say that you fail to find more cards with different names and that was legal with the original printing.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
The thing about Vexing Devil that most people realize is this. R for a 4/3 creature is broken. R for a Lava Spike + 1 is pretty amazing. But, the option of either one falling on one's opponent makes the card barely playable and probably not playable in this current metagame.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)That said, if you want to have a fun time, try pairing VD with Proclamation of Rebirth. Surely resurrecting up to three of them in one go should bait the opponent into making really bad plays.
I would say that this list would be slightly better with Vexing Devil over Nacatl. Agree/Disagree?
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
VD risks inconsistency all for an extra point of power.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
2 Stomping Grounds
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Experiment One
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Vexing Devil
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
2 Reckless Bushwacker
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Rancor
2 Path to Exile
4 Atarka's Command
There was a similar deck to this that placed last year. I am a believer of vexing devil so I think a small zoo deck is a nice home for him.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Sorcery (R)
Target opponent chooses one:
As God is my witness, if Wizards printed this card, everybody would insist that it was unplayable garbage because it gives the opponent a choice.
Tasigur's ability is good because it gives you repeatable card advantage when you have nothing else to do with your mana. The fact that the opponent gets to choose the least valuable card isn't as relevant compared to Vexing Devil where your opponent can completely dodge taking any damage if they have a removal spell.
To really use Vexing Devil, you have to find a way to make it so that the card being sacrificed vs leaving it in play are both bad choices for the opponent. Having things like Zulaport Cutthroat and Blood Artist can help with that, along with running creature boosting planeswalkers like Elspeth Knight Errant, Arlinn Kord, or other options.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
People love telling me how bad it is when I play it though, everyone turns educational on my ass when I cast it. Makes it even sweeter when they die to it.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
Except this card has put up results in modern in Gruul zoo unlike other hyped cards so maybe the card is good.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Probably just hasn't found the right shell yet. There's a lot of cards in the modern pool that I think are good, just they haven't found homes yet either due to stiff competition or a lack of options.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
What are you talking about? This card has already seen success in gruul zoo so it has found the right shell people just aren't playing small zoo as much.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
the experiment one trigger is so insane to me after a BTE
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Or it means that the dead draw Fatal Push/Path to Exile is now suddenly a relevant card....
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