I've really enjoyed cards that can block to slow down aggressive strategies and or leave behind bodies after a death cloud. This just also has the advantage of being better if you draw it with access to a lot of mana. How has it performed for you?
i think its only good in a deck with a sac outlet so its less vulnerable to path
Is Path to Exile really something that we should be worried about nowadays? Of all of the tier 1 and 2 decks right now, only Junk, Abzan Company, and Naya Zoo play it, and all of those are tier 2. The real question is whether it is worth it in the worst-case non-Path scenario (you play it for 2 mana, it trades with a removal spell immediately, you get a thopter).
In big tournaments and even PPTQs, I'd still be worried about PtE, as enough opponents will play that card that you can't count on dodging them all.
IMO, a question that's just as real is a bad-case non-Path scenario that involves you playing Hangarback for 2 mana, it not dying, and you never having the time or mana to tap it to add counters.
Hangarback is really good in Standard right now, but Standard is a slower format with worse removal for it. In Modern, I can't always slow down the game to where I can just accumulate counters. And even when I do, the tokens aren't nearly as good with there being a lot of sideboard options like Pyroclasm, Orzhov Pontiff, Anger of the Gods, Wrath, Damnation, etc. There's also the MB answer of Path to just clean up everything nicely.
I do still think it has potential, I just don't know where. Maybe Affinity is the best home since you can play it cheaply and accumulate counters easily? That's where people have been trying it, not sure what the success has been like.
Hangarback is really good in Standard right now, but Standard is a slower format with worse removal for it. In Modern, I can't always slow down the game to where I can just accumulate counters. And even when I do, the tokens aren't nearly as good with there being a lot of sideboard options like Pyroclasm, Orzhov Pontiff, Anger of the Gods, Wrath, Damnation, etc. There's also the MB answer of Path to just clean up everything nicely.
I do still think it has potential, I just don't know where. Maybe Affinity is the best home since you can play it cheaply and accumulate counters easily? That's where people have been trying it, not sure what the success has been like.
While this is true, Path sees less play in top tier decks in Modern than Abzan Charm does in Standard and sweepers see a lot less play in Modern than in Standard. I think that whether it sees play depends on if you will ever have the mana to put into it after you cast it and whether it is worth it to trade 2 mana and a card for a Lightning Bolt if you get a thopter out of the deal.
the problem is not particularly efficient on his own relative to the modern card pool, so you have to either have it stick around for a few turns or abuse it with something else. The easy answer for "abuse it with something else" is arcbound ravager which makes it firmly an affinity role-player. The "have it stick around for a few turns" is what I like to call "magical Christmas land". In addition to all of the grave hate that exists in modern, and all of the potential exile-based removal, there's also the "decks don't let you sit around and durdle for four turns without doing anything" side to modern. All of this combines to make me believe it is an affinity role player, and nothing more.
I think a few of you are totally missing the point of what Hangarback Walker represents.
I'm a big fan of artifact-based decks and this is the next greatest Modern legal artifact since Spellskite and Wurmcoil Engine.
Magic is a game of many things and one of those is resources. Outside of exile effects, Hangarback Walker is at minimum a 2 for 1. He's not to be played like brain-dead Tarmogoyf! There's so much artifact hate out there and with people mainboarding cards like Kolaghan's Command, artifact lovers needed something to be resilient enough.
You play him for two, so what he eats removal, just play more than a single copy in your deck, sooner or later you'll cast another one for 4 or 6. I disagree that you have to devote a whole strategy to him, just make him a part of your deck not the central core of your strategy. Heck, I run him in my Grand Architect build at only two copies because he's a resilient threat but not my only threat, hes part of my strategy, not the strategy.
Play two copies in a control deck and use him as a blocker, or cast him late in the game as a finisher.
Not worth attacking then pump if you have nothing else to cast, other wise just play your next on curve card.
Let your opponent spend resources while you gain value.
It's all about the subtleties, designed any different, i.e no activation cost, cheaper casting cost, etc, then Hangarback Walker would simply be goyf and just as expensive. Its all about game states and decisions, this guy just really requires you to think. Stop trying to break cards and just play the game.
I don't deny that he is generally an x-for-1. That is the only reason the card is under discussion. The problem is, it's not actually a 2-for-1 at every point. If you play him, he eats a k-command ping and you're forced to discard, you're down a 1 for 1 trade (your card for their command) and have invested a 2 mana 1/1 flyer to the board. At that rate, it's a terrible card. If you got two tokens, it was a slightly better dragon fodder. In fact, we can say your three mana investment (generously assuming you got to activate it once), you have in fact just cast lingering souls. Here's the problem--lingering souls wouldn't see play if it didn't have the flashback. spectral procession is *actually* what you got, except one of the bodies didn't have flying. The general assumption is for him to be even worth the card, you have to get two tokens, and really he needs to leave behind three tokens to be AT THE SAME POWER LEVEL as lingering souls in terms of value/card. At that point, we're playing a slightly *worse* lingering souls, that had the same total mana investment (or more) and the downside of being hit by more removal. when you start popping it for more than three tokens, it's magical christmasland, and it STILL doesn't compare to other similar mana investments, like wurmcoil engine or grave titan. THAT is my reasoning for why it isn't "good enough" as a value play on its own. Therefore, you have to have some kinds of synergy to abuse with it to make it worthwhile, preferably without warping around just hangarback walker itself. This is why it sees play in affinity, and why it may have value in other fringe artifact-based engine decks in modern.
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Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I don't deny that he is generally an x-for-1. That is the only reason the card is under discussion. The problem is, it's not actually a 2-for-1 at every point. If you play him, he eats a k-command ping and you're forced to discard, you're down a 1 for 1 trade (your card for their command) and have invested a 2 mana 1/1 flyer to the board. At that rate, it's a terrible card. If you got two tokens, it was a slightly better dragon fodder. In fact, we can say your three mana investment (generously assuming you got to activate it once), you have in fact just cast lingering souls...
As I said, it really just comes down to how and when you decide to play him. There are many scenarios you can make where playing him was not correct...if my opponent k-commands him, I still get the flier. I didn't spend 2 mana on a 1/1 flier, I spent two mana to most likely tap you out, considering you are k-commanding on your 3rd turn, and draw a resource out of your hand while still having something left on my board.
Compare it to playing a Young Pyromancer, Dark Confidant or even having a flipped Delver by the end of your turn 2. Your opponent k-commands killing the creature and doing whichever other mode he desires. Opponent 2, you zero.
Playing against decks like Grixis and Jund will always involve trades, they run ample disruption and removal. Are you just going to sit there and do nothing against those decks? That's surely a recipe to lose. You just have to keep throwing threats out there and grind till they don't have the answer. That "2 mana, 1/1 flier" sure does also make a great blocker. Against a flipped delver, sure I'll gain 3 life.
when you start popping it for more than three tokens, it's magical christmasland, and it STILL doesn't compare to other similar mana investments, like wurmcoil engine or grave titan. THAT is my reasoning for why it isn't "good enough" as a value play on its own...
Eventually you play a Wurmcoil Engine or the Grave Titan by that time and your opponent has already expended his removal or counter magic on Walker. The fact that he dies and producing something is the soul reason he is a "value play on its own".
My point isn't that he isn't a value creature--he totally is. The problem is, there are better value creatures out there. PLENTY of them.
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Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
My point isn't that he isn't a value creature--he totally is. The problem is, there are better value creatures out there. PLENTY of them.
Exactly that's the point. There are several creatures that provide more value in similar situations than he does. In almost any situation you have better creature that can give you more than him.
Modern isn't really a format that cares about grindy 2 for 1's and card advantage that much. In some matchups that may matter, but I would say at least 50 percent of the format couldn't give a crap about the virtual card advantage that may be provided here. Walker just seems really slow to me to be worthwhile, similar to how pack rat was amazing last standard, but sees very little play in modern.
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uh thats just wrong. k command is basically a bad card if value isnt important but it gelped push grixis to t1. you certainly need to be fast and efficient in modern. hangarback is just slower than finks or k command and doesnt provide as much instant value. but its better in a super grindy game potentially. its more of a sideboard card than anything outside tezz. death cloud is interesting too since it gives another win con but not sure where it fits there
Hangarback Walker should be really good with Arcbound Ravager and also Steel Overseer in one deck. And there is a deck. With a Master of Etherium, to make the tokens a really quick clock after you suffered a Wrath effect, I think this card will definitely find a way into the Robots Aggro deck, because he also really shines with Cranial Plating even more when he dies. He also keeps up Metalcraft with at least 2 counters (and an Artifact that actually has Metalcraft abilities).
For more fringe strategies, he is a colourless ritual with Krark Clan Ironworks that provides +2 mana and 2 Artifact EtB or "... dies" triggers.
Very rough draft, but the idea is to do the typical dredging motions, then use Postmortem Lunge to recur Jace or Hangarback. Postmortem Lunge allows you to just pay 2 life and get back Walker, which then dies and triggers Bridge. You can even just cast Walker for zero, have it trigger bridge, then Postmortem Lunge and trigger again.
The other route is to recur Jace and since Postmortem Lunge gives haste you activate and have him transform immediately, negating the exile trigger of Lunge. Then you could use you him has a planeswalker to cast another Lunge bringing back Hangarback Walker to again trigger Bridge.
Again just ideas but I'm sure someone could find a way to make it more elegant.
Other useful interactions could include Dryad Arbor and Life's Legacy. Pay 2 life and cast Lunge to bring back a hasted Dryad Arbor, then cast Life's Legacy and star dredging etc.
Immortal Servitude to bring back Walkers, then recast again with planewalkers Jace.
Tron
Tell me more... I've been playing around with Death Cloud rock lately and specifically went looking for information on this card in that strategy.
2 Woodland Cemetery
4 Treetop Village
3 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Creatures 11
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Liliana of the Veil
Other 20
3 Night's Whisper
3 Death Cloud
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Victim of Night
1 Damnation
2 Duress
2 Guttural Response
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Creeping Corrosion
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Golgari Charm
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Victim of Night
I've really enjoyed cards that can block to slow down aggressive strategies and or leave behind bodies after a death cloud. This just also has the advantage of being better if you draw it with access to a lot of mana. How has it performed for you?
In big tournaments and even PPTQs, I'd still be worried about PtE, as enough opponents will play that card that you can't count on dodging them all.
IMO, a question that's just as real is a bad-case non-Path scenario that involves you playing Hangarback for 2 mana, it not dying, and you never having the time or mana to tap it to add counters.
I do still think it has potential, I just don't know where. Maybe Affinity is the best home since you can play it cheaply and accumulate counters easily? That's where people have been trying it, not sure what the success has been like.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
While this is true, Path sees less play in top tier decks in Modern than Abzan Charm does in Standard and sweepers see a lot less play in Modern than in Standard. I think that whether it sees play depends on if you will ever have the mana to put into it after you cast it and whether it is worth it to trade 2 mana and a card for a Lightning Bolt if you get a thopter out of the deal.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I'm a big fan of artifact-based decks and this is the next greatest Modern legal artifact since Spellskite and Wurmcoil Engine.
Magic is a game of many things and one of those is resources. Outside of exile effects, Hangarback Walker is at minimum a 2 for 1. He's not to be played like brain-dead Tarmogoyf! There's so much artifact hate out there and with people mainboarding cards like Kolaghan's Command, artifact lovers needed something to be resilient enough.
You play him for two, so what he eats removal, just play more than a single copy in your deck, sooner or later you'll cast another one for 4 or 6. I disagree that you have to devote a whole strategy to him, just make him a part of your deck not the central core of your strategy. Heck, I run him in my Grand Architect build at only two copies because he's a resilient threat but not my only threat, hes part of my strategy, not the strategy.
Play two copies in a control deck and use him as a blocker, or cast him late in the game as a finisher.
Not worth attacking then pump if you have nothing else to cast, other wise just play your next on curve card.
Let your opponent spend resources while you gain value.
It's all about the subtleties, designed any different, i.e no activation cost, cheaper casting cost, etc, then Hangarback Walker would simply be goyf and just as expensive. Its all about game states and decisions, this guy just really requires you to think. Stop trying to break cards and just play the game.
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Compare it to playing a Young Pyromancer, Dark Confidant or even having a flipped Delver by the end of your turn 2. Your opponent k-commands killing the creature and doing whichever other mode he desires. Opponent 2, you zero.
Playing against decks like Grixis and Jund will always involve trades, they run ample disruption and removal. Are you just going to sit there and do nothing against those decks? That's surely a recipe to lose. You just have to keep throwing threats out there and grind till they don't have the answer. That "2 mana, 1/1 flier" sure does also make a great blocker. Against a flipped delver, sure I'll gain 3 life.
Eventually you play a Wurmcoil Engine or the Grave Titan by that time and your opponent has already expended his removal or counter magic on Walker. The fact that he dies and producing something is the soul reason he is a "value play on its own".
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
For more fringe strategies, he is a colourless ritual with Krark Clan Ironworks that provides +2 mana and 2 Artifact EtB or "... dies" triggers.
I'm thinking something like this:
18 Lands
Creatures
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 Faithless Looting
4 Thought Scour
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Postmortem Lunge
2 Immortal Servitude
4 Bridge from Below
Very rough draft, but the idea is to do the typical dredging motions, then use Postmortem Lunge to recur Jace or Hangarback. Postmortem Lunge allows you to just pay 2 life and get back Walker, which then dies and triggers Bridge. You can even just cast Walker for zero, have it trigger bridge, then Postmortem Lunge and trigger again.
The other route is to recur Jace and since Postmortem Lunge gives haste you activate and have him transform immediately, negating the exile trigger of Lunge. Then you could use you him has a planeswalker to cast another Lunge bringing back Hangarback Walker to again trigger Bridge.
Again just ideas but I'm sure someone could find a way to make it more elegant.
Other useful interactions could include Dryad Arbor and Life's Legacy. Pay 2 life and cast Lunge to bring back a hasted Dryad Arbor, then cast Life's Legacy and star dredging etc.
Immortal Servitude to bring back Walkers, then recast again with planewalkers Jace.
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge