I remember back in the 90s when a lot of successful decks played the risky play of T1 Swamp, Dark Ritual, Hypnotic Specter. It was acknowledged that while this was offering your opponent an easy 2-for-1 card advantage by way of a single Swords to Plowshares or Lightning Bolt, the advantage of such an early threat, in the event the opponent didn't have the answer, was worth the risk. I think a lot of the prevailing logic behind Dark Ritual's nonexistence in the modern card pool was that such a play was just too powerful, that it allowed a black aggro creature deck to get a really high-risk fast start that, with a little backup, could end the game quicker than WotC wanted it to develop.
But we just had a card printed in Bone Picker that I expected would make some Modern waves as a 2-card-investment T1 black threat (Endless One, Hangarback Walker, Walking Ballista, or Wild Cantor can make it land T1) ... and it seems to have been met with a resounding shrug. It has the same sort of risk-reward situation as a first turn Dark Rit into 3-drop used to, vulnerable to Lightning Bolt and Path to Exile and revolted Fatal Push but a substantial threat if unable to be answered.
Which makes me wonder - if people could play a Dark Ritual-like card in modern to speed out a T1 creature threat (imagine a B-cost instant that reads something like "Add BBB to your mana pool. Use this mana only to cast a creature spell with converted mana cost 3 or less.") - would it even see play? Or has modern become so much about card advantage that people wouldn't even entertain the same sort of Swamp-Accelerator-Threat first turn play that used to be the pre-modern norm?
Dark Ritual would definitely see play, but you bring up just one scenario. Five-drop on turn two would be pretty easy to pull off. I don't play Ad Nauseam, but I'd imagine they would probably use it to speed up their combo.
Yeah, that's why I limited it to the "Imagine it only produced 3 mana, for a creature CMC 3 or less" scenario. I know a lot of decks would use it to accelerate a combo (Simian Spirit Guide is evidence enough of that!) if it was that open-ended in use (and I don't want to get into T1 Liliana of the Veil or such), and I wanted to exclude that discussion. I'm really not trying to talk about Dark Ritual itself, but of how the philosophy of "is it worth spending two cards to get a substantial creature threat T1?" has changed. People used to use Dark Ritual that way (among other uses) in pre-Modern times, and I am trying to discern if people would if they could in Modern, or if there's been such a philosophical shift in how Magic is played that people would no longer outlay two cards for one first turn threat.
Dark ritual would see play. The "philosophy" of modern hasn't changed. You still want the best chance to win and if you are playing to cheat out threats you play the best threats available. Cheating out a small creature is okay but why bother when you can lock a player out with turn 1 blood moon or chalice of the void. These are much harder to remove. The idea of using fast mana to cheat out risky threats is alive but nobody plays a riskier threat than they need to. Creatures that are smaller than griselbrand aren't usually worth the effort since you could griselbrand for the same effort.
Bone Picker doesn't much play because it doesn't stack up well. Turn 1 you're facing Goblin Guides and Nacatls that can trade without requiring an extra card. Turn 2 people are already dropping DS, TKS, and Delve creatures. Turn 3 you could be facing karn. For 2 cards AND 1 mana you would be getting a 3/2 that's almost immediately out classed.
Your hypothetical 3 mana for creatures only would probably see play. If you're cheating out a creature isn't X/4 at least the body will be smaller than your opponents a lot of the time so you care more about it having a really disruptive or game-winning ability. Hypnotic Specter could create card advantage eventually. Bone Picker cannot easily. I don't know what the threat of choice would be but it would depend on the color of the mana being created. Red mana might make a turn 1 Goblin Rabblemaster popular. Making a really big turn 2 would also be a good play.
"Is it worth spending two cards to get a substantial creature threat t1?" Yes griselbrand is a great turn 1 threat. The problem with this question is insisting it must be a creature threat. If you are cheating out a threat you want it to be resilient and right now the non-creature turn 1 threats that can be cheated out are more resilient and threatening. If a card was created that made it easier to ritual to cast a creature it would probably push it the other way.
I think yes, but only if there was a 3-drop that avoided a lot of removal. So, dark ritual into Phyrexian Crusader in a mid-range shell? I still think you need to Thoughtseize turn 1 in that deck (to get rid of, say, a Fatal Push) and focus on something like Phyrexian Obliterator on turn 2.
I remember back in the 90s when a lot of successful decks played the risky play of T1 Swamp, Dark Ritual, Hypnotic Specter. It was acknowledged that while this was offering your opponent an easy 2-for-1 card advantage by way of a single Swords to Plowshares or Lightning Bolt, the advantage of such an early threat, in the event the opponent didn't have the answer, was worth the risk. I think a lot of the prevailing logic behind Dark Ritual's nonexistence in the modern card pool was that such a play was just too powerful, that it allowed a black aggro creature deck to get a really high-risk fast start that, with a little backup, could end the game quicker than WotC wanted it to develop.
But we just had a card printed in Bone Picker that I expected would make some Modern waves as a 2-card-investment T1 black threat (Endless One, Hangarback Walker, Walking Ballista, or Wild Cantor can make it land T1) ... and it seems to have been met with a resounding shrug. It has the same sort of risk-reward situation as a first turn Dark Rit into 3-drop used to, vulnerable to Lightning Bolt and Path to Exile and revolted Fatal Push but a substantial threat if unable to be answered.
Which makes me wonder - if people could play a Dark Ritual-like card in modern to speed out a T1 creature threat (imagine a B-cost instant that reads something like "Add BBB to your mana pool. Use this mana only to cast a creature spell with converted mana cost 3 or less.") - would it even see play? Or has modern become so much about card advantage that people wouldn't even entertain the same sort of Swamp-Accelerator-Threat first turn play that used to be the pre-modern norm?
Bone Picker doesn't see much play because it is an Aristocrats card and aristocrats isn't very good. It can only be played in that deck/sideboard so you can always get the cost reduction. IMHO if innocent blood was legal bone picker would have a better chance. Your fixed dark ritual would see play and probably power up a mono b zombie/devotion list.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
T1 ritual into 3-drop has been replaced by T1 Noble Hierarch into T2 3-drop in modern times. It's a turn slower, but Hierarch continues to produce mana for future turns, boosts your 3-drop in combat, and soaks up an edict.
Unlike Hypnotic Specter, Bone Picker doesn't disrupt your opponent. It's only good for beating. 1 mana for a 3-power guy is a good rate, but we already have Delver of Secrets and Wild Nacatl, and those are easier to set up than Bone Picker, both in terms of what cards you have to play in your deck to make them work and how many cards you have to spend during a game to turn them on.
To have the mana to play either your fixed Ritual plus Bone Picker or just a 1-mana kill spell plus Bone Picker (and I assume your question came about because you were equating the 1-mana kill spells to Dark Rit for Bone Picker uses) you need to be in your 2nd turn. Turn 2 in Modern is a crucial turn where you should be playing much more potent threats (or leaving up answers to those threats) than Bone Picker.
To have the mana to play either your fixed Ritual plus Bone Picker or just a 1-mana kill spell plus Bone Picker (and I assume your question came about because you were equating the 1-mana kill spells to Dark Rit for Bone Picker uses) you need to be in your 2nd turn. Turn 2 in Modern is a crucial turn where you should be playing much more potent threats (or leaving up answers to those threats) than Bone Picker.
I wasn't talking about using my 'fixed ritual' for Bone Picker or talking about T2 at all, I was stating that one could play a T1 Bone Picker (by spending one other card: Endless One, Hangarback Walker, or Walking Ballista for X=0, or Wild Cantor), and that play would be similar to how people used to often open black aggro games with Swamp - Dark Ritual - 3drop (in either case you spent 2 cards to land one first turn threat that is substantially better than one typically lands on T1, but you've lost 2 cards if your threat is removed by a single card).
The 'Fixed Ritual' was an aside on the same concept - if people could use that 'fixed ritual' into a 3 drop creature in modern (I was thinking Geralf's Messenger, Vampire Nighthawk, or old-familiar Hypnotic Specter again)... would they? I was basically trying to get to the bottom of whether committing 2 cards to a good-but-defenseless first turn creature was something people simply wouldn't do in modern today even if they had the opportunity.
To have the mana to play either your fixed Ritual plus Bone Picker or just a 1-mana kill spell plus Bone Picker (and I assume your question came about because you were equating the 1-mana kill spells to Dark Rit for Bone Picker uses) you need to be in your 2nd turn. Turn 2 in Modern is a crucial turn where you should be playing much more potent threats (or leaving up answers to those threats) than Bone Picker.
I wasn't talking about using my 'fixed ritual' for Bone Picker or talking about T2 at all, I was stating that one could play a T1 Bone Picker (by spending one other card: Endless One, Hangarback Walker, or Walking Ballista for X=0, or Wild Cantor), and that play would be similar to how people used to often open black aggro games with Swamp - Dark Ritual - 3drop (in either case you spent 2 cards to land one first turn threat that is substantially better than one typically lands on T1, but you've lost 2 cards if your threat is removed by a single card).
The 'Fixed Ritual' was an aside on the same concept - if people could use that 'fixed ritual' into a 3 drop creature in modern (I was thinking Geralf's Messenger, Vampire Nighthawk, or old-familiar Hypnotic Specter again)... would they? I was basically trying to get to the bottom of whether committing 2 cards to a good-but-defenseless first turn creature was something people simply wouldn't do in modern today even if they had the opportunity.
Thanks for the feedback everyone.
This seems horrible because you are two for oneing yourself just to play a 3/2 flyer. None of those creatures even fit the strategy that bone picker wants to be played in that you are using to cast it imho. This only gets worse if your opponent has removal for it since you are now down two cards to their one. The reason why dark ritual is so busted is that it can either get out a liliana of the veil turn 1, a creature with disruption like a hypnotic specter, breaks storm, or it can chain into itself to cast something huge.
Bone Picker needs the deck its in to guarantee that its getting a cost reduction. So either its being played in sideboard against creature heavy matchups, its being played in aritocrat decks that can enable it without depending on your opponent having a creature, or it needs innocent blood to become modern legal.
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Dark Ritual in Ad Nauseaum and Gifts Storm would break the format right in half, it was only used to ramp out creatures originally because Hypnotic Specter and Juzam Djinn were the best repeatable disruption and win conditions available.
I play Dark Rit in pauper to drop 3 one drops with 2 power on turn one, and it's really strong. The deck itself isn't awesome, but turn 1 dark rit into 3 1 drops is super powerful and will win a lot of games. I could see zombies using something like that to go Cryptbreaker and a relentless dead or some combination of 3 gravecrawlers and cryptbreakers to draw a card and immediately replace that dark rit effect. That seems like the most powerful shell for it. I've already seen people trying zombies with aether vial to speed it up to decent effect. This type 'fixed' dark rit could make the deck really good. It's still kind of in the Elves category of dieing to sweepers, but has a lot of built in resiliency and cryptbreaker draws cards really well.
The card might even be not broken in standard if they are careful, but it would have to wait until Ixalan or it breaks zombies in standard right in half. Makes it %100 the best deck in the format I would bet.
Dark Ritual in Ad Nauseaum and Gifts Storm would break the format right in half, it was only used to ramp out creatures originally because Hypnotic Specter and Juzam Djinn were the best repeatable disruption and win conditions available.
Dark Ritual would not be played in Gifts Storm as you want to be making red and/or blue mana, not black.
Why would people be content for just 3 mana turn one? I would assume everyone would try to break it with combinations of Simian Spirt Guide, Gemstone Caverns and maybe Pyretic/Desperate Rituals. 4, 5 maybe 6 mana turn one? It could get ugly. I like cheating on the curve but it would prove to be too much I believe.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Turn 1 Hyppie was brutal. I can attest to that. Granted, it didn't happen all the time, but when it did, it wrecked face. Add to that black land destruction Strip Mine and Sinkhole. Ugh.
In that regard, turn 1 Fulminator Mage could really really slow opponents down. Is it good enough? Maybe with a boat load of Ghost Quarters to keep the pressure up. Turn 1 Hyppie or Turn 1 Fulminator gives resiliency, then just follow it up with all the Thoughtseizes turns 2 through scoop.
Honestly, dark ritual into fulminator mage just seems bad, even followed by thoughtseize/inquisition of kozilek/duress. The reason it is bad is a lack of pressure. Hypnotic specter was good because it provided disruption and pressure ,same as liliana of the veil would (if I had dark ritual in modern, I would be rocking playsets of both, believe me!). Geralf's messenger would be pretty solid because shy of a path to exile, that card is going to take two cards to answer it. In the meantime, they are going to lose a minimum of 4 life.
Other than that, on to the original discussion of bone picker. I could see playing this card in a version of jund. In the early turns, it isn't uncommon to remove a threat and have 1 mana up. If that mana is black, then this looks a lot like a 1 mana delver with no drawbacks (think fatal push or lightning bolt on their turn 1 drop). It is meta dependent, but I could see playing it. However, like anyone else here. I have to stress that it is only good if you are playing this sort of game. As a 4 mana 3/2 flier, it is limited fodder (albeit pretty darned good there).
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
But we just had a card printed in Bone Picker that I expected would make some Modern waves as a 2-card-investment T1 black threat (Endless One, Hangarback Walker, Walking Ballista, or Wild Cantor can make it land T1) ... and it seems to have been met with a resounding shrug. It has the same sort of risk-reward situation as a first turn Dark Rit into 3-drop used to, vulnerable to Lightning Bolt and Path to Exile and revolted Fatal Push but a substantial threat if unable to be answered.
Which makes me wonder - if people could play a Dark Ritual-like card in modern to speed out a T1 creature threat (imagine a B-cost instant that reads something like "Add BBB to your mana pool. Use this mana only to cast a creature spell with converted mana cost 3 or less.") - would it even see play? Or has modern become so much about card advantage that people wouldn't even entertain the same sort of Swamp-Accelerator-Threat first turn play that used to be the pre-modern norm?
Bone Picker doesn't much play because it doesn't stack up well. Turn 1 you're facing Goblin Guides and Nacatls that can trade without requiring an extra card. Turn 2 people are already dropping DS, TKS, and Delve creatures. Turn 3 you could be facing karn. For 2 cards AND 1 mana you would be getting a 3/2 that's almost immediately out classed.
Your hypothetical 3 mana for creatures only would probably see play. If you're cheating out a creature isn't X/4 at least the body will be smaller than your opponents a lot of the time so you care more about it having a really disruptive or game-winning ability. Hypnotic Specter could create card advantage eventually. Bone Picker cannot easily. I don't know what the threat of choice would be but it would depend on the color of the mana being created. Red mana might make a turn 1 Goblin Rabblemaster popular. Making a really big turn 2 would also be a good play.
"Is it worth spending two cards to get a substantial creature threat t1?" Yes griselbrand is a great turn 1 threat. The problem with this question is insisting it must be a creature threat. If you are cheating out a threat you want it to be resilient and right now the non-creature turn 1 threats that can be cheated out are more resilient and threatening. If a card was created that made it easier to ritual to cast a creature it would probably push it the other way.
Bone Picker doesn't see much play because it is an Aristocrats card and aristocrats isn't very good. It can only be played in that deck/sideboard so you can always get the cost reduction. IMHO if innocent blood was legal bone picker would have a better chance. Your fixed dark ritual would see play and probably power up a mono b zombie/devotion list.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Unlike Hypnotic Specter, Bone Picker doesn't disrupt your opponent. It's only good for beating. 1 mana for a 3-power guy is a good rate, but we already have Delver of Secrets and Wild Nacatl, and those are easier to set up than Bone Picker, both in terms of what cards you have to play in your deck to make them work and how many cards you have to spend during a game to turn them on.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
If I can go "Swamp, Dark Rit, Liliana of the Veil uptick", 100%.
I wasn't talking about using my 'fixed ritual' for Bone Picker or talking about T2 at all, I was stating that one could play a T1 Bone Picker (by spending one other card: Endless One, Hangarback Walker, or Walking Ballista for X=0, or Wild Cantor), and that play would be similar to how people used to often open black aggro games with Swamp - Dark Ritual - 3drop (in either case you spent 2 cards to land one first turn threat that is substantially better than one typically lands on T1, but you've lost 2 cards if your threat is removed by a single card).
The 'Fixed Ritual' was an aside on the same concept - if people could use that 'fixed ritual' into a 3 drop creature in modern (I was thinking Geralf's Messenger, Vampire Nighthawk, or old-familiar Hypnotic Specter again)... would they? I was basically trying to get to the bottom of whether committing 2 cards to a good-but-defenseless first turn creature was something people simply wouldn't do in modern today even if they had the opportunity.
Thanks for the feedback everyone.
This seems horrible because you are two for oneing yourself just to play a 3/2 flyer. None of those creatures even fit the strategy that bone picker wants to be played in that you are using to cast it imho. This only gets worse if your opponent has removal for it since you are now down two cards to their one. The reason why dark ritual is so busted is that it can either get out a liliana of the veil turn 1, a creature with disruption like a hypnotic specter, breaks storm, or it can chain into itself to cast something huge.
Bone Picker needs the deck its in to guarantee that its getting a cost reduction. So either its being played in sideboard against creature heavy matchups, its being played in aritocrat decks that can enable it without depending on your opponent having a creature, or it needs innocent blood to become modern legal.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Rip in pieces
Everyone would play it in Modern.
The card might even be not broken in standard if they are careful, but it would have to wait until Ixalan or it breaks zombies in standard right in half. Makes it %100 the best deck in the format I would bet.
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
Dark Ritual would not be played in Gifts Storm as you want to be making red and/or blue mana, not black.
But yes it would break Ad Nauseam
I remember that from the Revised days. The good ole days
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
In that regard, turn 1 Fulminator Mage could really really slow opponents down. Is it good enough? Maybe with a boat load of Ghost Quarters to keep the pressure up. Turn 1 Hyppie or Turn 1 Fulminator gives resiliency, then just follow it up with all the Thoughtseizes turns 2 through scoop.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Other than that, on to the original discussion of bone picker. I could see playing this card in a version of jund. In the early turns, it isn't uncommon to remove a threat and have 1 mana up. If that mana is black, then this looks a lot like a 1 mana delver with no drawbacks (think fatal push or lightning bolt on their turn 1 drop). It is meta dependent, but I could see playing it. However, like anyone else here. I have to stress that it is only good if you are playing this sort of game. As a 4 mana 3/2 flier, it is limited fodder (albeit pretty darned good there).
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Phyrexian Crusader
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."