... BG Infect placed well recently, regardless. As in, it's already a deck.
There you go then. Could push a BG version to Tier 2 status. The point is moot though, Dark Ritual will never make a show in Modern.
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STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I think its power is less in turn 1 stuff and more in turn 2 stuff. It seems to go well with Phyrexian Obliterator, plus if you wait until the second turn you can use your first turn on a Thoughtseize to take out their removal.
I love how everyone missed the entire point. Guys bonepicker was not the topic of discussion. Just a point made. Okay so now past that. If the card read... And this just feels more green than black BTW so fixing that.
Creative and cool name G
Sorcery
Put a creature with converted mana cost of 3 or less from your hand into the battlefield.
That's more like the OP is trying to describe. Would this be played in modern?
Or make it black for some reason. Would that be played?
Even though with the new evolution card, the OP card just feels green.
I love how everyone missed the entire point. Guys bonepicker was not the topic of discussion. Just a point made. Okay so now past that. If the card read... And this just feels more green than black BTW so fixing that.
Creative and cool name G
Sorcery
Put a creature with converted mana cost of 3 or less from your hand into the battlefield.
That's more like the OP is trying to describe. Would this be played in modern?
Or make it black for some reason. Would that be played?
Even though with the new evolution card, the OP card just feels green.
Ah, see, thats a different card tho. Cause multi-colored cards could come into play because of it, whereas Dark Ritual had that very specific BBB
I love how everyone missed the entire point. Guys bonepicker was not the topic of discussion. Just a point made. Okay so now past that. If the card read... And this just feels more green than black BTW so fixing that.
Creative and cool name G
Sorcery
Put a creature with converted mana cost of 3 or less from your hand into the battlefield.
That's more like the OP is trying to describe. Would this be played in modern?
Or make it black for some reason. Would that be played?
Even though with the new evolution card, the OP card just feels green.
Ah, see, thats a different card tho. Cause multi-colored cards could come into play because of it, whereas Dark Ritual had that very specific BBB
But the crux of my question remains: 'would modern players invest two cards into one T1 creature knowing that a single removal spell gets them 2 for oned'?
The whole 'fixed ritual' and 'bone picker' discussions were examples to illustrate this core question. Playing 2 cards for one creature is a risk reward scenario given you forfeit card advantage if the opponent has removal.
Is the line between 'creatures this is worth it' and 'creatures this is not worth it' as simple as black and w...nonblack? Is the answer 'Yes for Woolly Thoctar, no for Vampire Nighthawk'?
Could some sort of gimped Dark Ritual be safe for modern? Something with a clause that limits what cards you can use the mana on. Make it tribal or something ie only spend this mana on XXX tribe spells.
Could some sort of gimped Dark Ritual be safe for modern? Something with a clause that limits what cards you can use the mana on. Make it tribal or something ie only spend this mana on XXX tribe spells.
I've thought that something like..
Shade Ritual
Instant
B
As an additional cost to cast Shade Ritual Pay 2 Life
Add BB to your mana pool
Seems right up Black's alley. Not sure if opponents would like a turn one on the draw Fatal Push and Thoughtseize or a turn one Lily with another Ritual or SSG though.
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STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
But the crux of my question remains: 'would modern players invest two cards into one T1 creature knowing that a single removal spell gets them 2 for oned'?
They won't. That's basically putting an aura on a creature. Something like T1 2-power 1-drop into T2 Rancor has you attacking for 4 each turn, and those kinds of decks barely break tier 3. Bogles uses auras successfully precisely because it can't get 2-for-1ed by spot removal.
Auras aside, it's possible to spend 2 cards to get 3 power worth of creatures cheaply, with varying degrees of vulnerability to disruption:
- 0-drop into Kuldotha Rebirth
- 0-drop or Young Wolf into Pongify or Rapid Hybridization
- creature that sacs itself (e.g. Mogg Fanatic) into Skin Invasion
None of them has been successful in Modern. Unless there's a very good reason, Bone Picker is set to join them.
Yeah, there's also Simian Spirit Guide into a T1 2-drop like Voltaic Brawler, which is also a swing-for-4 T2. Though SSG sees a lot of play, not so much in that context. Which is pretty much the answer I expected this discussion to eventually come around to, but I wanted to see the dialogue and reasoning for and against. Thanks!
Unless there's a very good reason, Bone Picker is set to join them.
The difference with Bone Picker is you don't have to 2-for-1 yourself (unless you get the chance to drop 2x of them on turn 2) and can just get them down by removing opposing creatures.
Sure it will be high variance but it can be playable.
The biggest challenge with any type of super-early mana-ramp like Dark Ritual, or even "fixed" dark ritual effects is that it warps creative. Every single creative decision after "fixed dark ritual" has to take "fixed dark ritual" into consideration. In this example, every creature with CMC 3 or less would have to be evaulated as if it could enter play turn 1. Currently, the cost involved with making a 3-cmc hit play T1 is self-balancing. Once you change that, and allow 3-cmc creatures to enter on turn 1, well, you then completely limit every 3-cmc creature thereafter. Wooly Thoctar (from the previous example) would probably never have a chance of being printed. Probably not Vampire Nighthawk, and never Hypnotic Spectre: a card that sees zero play currently. Those cards could never exist. So, no matter how well you try to balance a T1 "fixed dark ritual" either it will be so underpowered as to not even be considered a "dark ritual" type card or it will warp formats foreverafter simply because of the way design has to balance the possibility of it being played.
The biggest challenge with any type of super-early mana-ramp like Dark Ritual, or even "fixed" dark ritual effects is that it warps creative. Every single creative decision after "fixed dark ritual" has to take "fixed dark ritual" into consideration. In this example, every creature with CMC 3 or less would have to be evaulated as if it could enter play turn 1. Currently, the cost involved with making a 3-cmc hit play T1 is self-balancing. Once you change that, and allow 3-cmc creatures to enter on turn 1, well, you then completely limit every 3-cmc creature thereafter. Wooly Thoctar (from the previous example) would probably never have a chance of being printed. Probably not Vampire Nighthawk, and never Hypnotic Spectre: a card that sees zero play currently. Those cards could never exist. So, no matter how well you try to balance a T1 "fixed dark ritual" either it will be so underpowered as to not even be considered a "dark ritual" type card or it will warp formats foreverafter simply because of the way design has to balance the possibility of it being played.
How about adding a line of rules text like to my idea above?
Mana produced by Shade Ritual may only be used to cast Instants and Sorceries.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
This deck is pretty strong for a casual deck, but without Dark Ritual it would be too slow for Modern.
Naturally, I thought about having a card like Dark Ritual that could empower a tribal deck like this and make it more relevant in Modern without breaking the format like Dark Ritual would.
Vampiric Ritual
B
Sorcery
Add BBB to your mana pool. Use this mana only to cast Vampire creatures.
This would be a fun deck to take to Modern night if a card like that existed. Without it, I wouldn't bother.
Of course Greed and Volrath's Stronghold would have to go, but they're not important. Also, naturally I'd replace Geth's Verdict with more relevent Modern removal, but for a casual deck Geth's Verdict is fine (and cheap).
You proved my point, neither one of those cards has a big restriction stapled to it. Available for only instants and sorceries makes it restrictive enough to possibly be playable. Worried about it in multiples tack on "this spell may only be cast once per turn and its effects cannot be copied."
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I remember back in the 90s when a lot of successful decks played the risky play of T1 Swamp, Dark Ritual, Hypnotic Specter. It was acknowledged that while this was offering your opponent an easy 2-for-1 card advantage by way of a single Swords to Plowshares or Lightning Bolt, the advantage of such an early threat, in the event the opponent didn't have the answer, was worth the risk. I think a lot of the prevailing logic behind Dark Ritual's nonexistence in the modern card pool was that such a play was just too powerful, that it allowed a black aggro creature deck to get a really high-risk fast start that, with a little backup, could end the game quicker than WotC wanted it to develop.
But we just had a card printed in Bone Picker that I expected would make some Modern waves as a 2-card-investment T1 black threat (Endless One, Hangarback Walker, Walking Ballista, or Wild Cantor can make it land T1) ... and it seems to have been met with a resounding shrug. It has the same sort of risk-reward situation as a first turn Dark Rit into 3-drop used to, vulnerable to Lightning Bolt and Path to Exile and revolted Fatal Push but a substantial threat if unable to be answered.
Which makes me wonder - if people could play a Dark Ritual-like card in modern to speed out a T1 creature threat (imagine a B-cost instant that reads something like "Add BBB to your mana pool. Use this mana only to cast a creature spell with converted mana cost 3 or less.") - would it even see play? Or has modern become so much about card advantage that people wouldn't even entertain the same sort of Swamp-Accelerator-Threat first turn play that used to be the pre-modern norm?
So based on Rite of Flame and Seething Song I can say emphatically that Dark ritual would be playable (and banned). But for your fixed ritual we have some other parallels we can compare it to: Manadorks are playable, but a similar card Geosurge is not. Your restriction of 3 cmc or less is what makes the card very marginal, because there is nothing at that cost or less that needs to be raced out at the cost of a card. This isn't the 90's where you can expect a hypnotic specter to do work like you suggested. People play smarter and with better cards and every deck will lov eyou to spend two cards that can be removed by 90% of the format's removal.
You proved my point, neither one of those cards has a big restriction stapled to it. Available for only instants and sorceries makes it restrictive enough to possibly be playable. Worried about it in multiples tack on "this spell may only be cast once per turn and its effects cannot be copied."
Yeah, but those were banned because of storm which almost exclusively casts instants and sorceries. So, your restriction wouldn't stop them from using it at all. The only thing that would actually stop them using it is how much harder it is to cast things in the modern storm deck with black mana.
Also, this thread was specifically asked to be about Dark Rit into a 3 drop CREATURE. So, if you want to discuss that idea of yours with instants and sorceries, maybe make a new thread
Dark Ritual will never see play in Modern as its just too powerful. A fixed version would likely make it as long as its heavily restricted. An example would be:
Fixed Ritual B
Sorcery
Add BBB to your mana pool. Use this only to play black creature, enchantment or sorcery spells with converted mana cost 3 or less.
This is the only way I see any possibility for a fixed version to enter Modern.
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"Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight."
A reiteration : this thread was not actually about Dark Ritual or fixing Dark Ritual for modern. That was an example illustrating my actual question of whether modern players would invest two cards into one first turn removable creature threat. Which is something people regularly did in the 90s using Dark Ritual.
In a more direct answer to the original question, no. The removal now is just way more prevalent. Almost any deck you face will remove it immediately. But that's only discussing creatures. If we are discussing any turn 1 threat, then LOTV on 1 would be both playable and very good.
If we are discussing how it would be used, the answer is differently. Instead of Hippy on 1, it would still be used but for other things. It would see a lot of play, possibly for turn 2 Phyrexian Obliterator or other turn 2 threats. But likely not for a turn 1 3 drop. But I may be very wrong here
They can bring old cards back into modern if they do a rules change on what cards can't be played together to restrict the kinds of combinations of plays available, but otherwise the main reason they don't have things like dark ritual around anymore is due to how potent that instant three mana was. Even with the card disadvantage, it was basically an example of going too far on a mana ramp card. Personally, I think mana ramping cards like Simian Spirit Guide ARE okay, but that wizards R&D and design team warped the game design and put too much power in creature / spell hybrids like Reflector Mage and Gatekeeper of Malakir. Not to mention the problems of making extremely weak non-creature permanents and turning older mainstays into creatures, which makes them way too easy to interact with across the board to build a strategy around. Crucible of Worlds vs the new green creature that does the same thing is a pretty good example of this.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
(Rhonas the Indomitable and Dungrove Elder are usually good choices of 3-drop resilient creatures, but their utility as an accelerated T1 threat isn't so hot, given you won't have another big creature or many forests if you power one of these guys out T1)
Pretty much every play green has turn 2 moves on turn 1. I'm not that experienced, but I've always been fond of Courser of Kruphix. That's just quicker card advantage. That 4 toughness is plenty of resilience so early.
It's a terribly dead draw later in the game, but making it an instant might make it too good...
On a side note, I wish they'd bring Sylvan Library back to modern. Moments after green combines with black to make a verduous gearhulk deck. They give white a card that prevents all counters from happening. I realize this white card will help pump out above average green creatures, but green should be able to do that on its own!!! So we move from Golgari to Selesnya. UG might end up with a deck too, the way it looks. And yet there's still creatures that want forests on the battlefield.
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There you go then. Could push a BG version to Tier 2 status. The point is moot though, Dark Ritual will never make a show in Modern.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Creative and cool name G
Sorcery
Put a creature with converted mana cost of 3 or less from your hand into the battlefield.
That's more like the OP is trying to describe. Would this be played in modern?
Or make it black for some reason. Would that be played?
Even though with the new evolution card, the OP card just feels green.
Ah, see, thats a different card tho. Cause multi-colored cards could come into play because of it, whereas Dark Ritual had that very specific BBB
But the crux of my question remains: 'would modern players invest two cards into one T1 creature knowing that a single removal spell gets them 2 for oned'?
The whole 'fixed ritual' and 'bone picker' discussions were examples to illustrate this core question. Playing 2 cards for one creature is a risk reward scenario given you forfeit card advantage if the opponent has removal.
Is the line between 'creatures this is worth it' and 'creatures this is not worth it' as simple as black and w...nonblack? Is the answer 'Yes for Woolly Thoctar, no for Vampire Nighthawk'?
I've thought that something like..
Shade Ritual
Instant
B
As an additional cost to cast Shade Ritual Pay 2 Life
Add BB to your mana pool
Seems right up Black's alley. Not sure if opponents would like a turn one on the draw Fatal Push and Thoughtseize or a turn one Lily with another Ritual or SSG though.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Auras aside, it's possible to spend 2 cards to get 3 power worth of creatures cheaply, with varying degrees of vulnerability to disruption:
- 0-drop into Kuldotha Rebirth
- 0-drop or Young Wolf into Pongify or Rapid Hybridization
- creature that sacs itself (e.g. Mogg Fanatic) into Skin Invasion
None of them has been successful in Modern. Unless there's a very good reason, Bone Picker is set to join them.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
The difference with Bone Picker is you don't have to 2-for-1 yourself (unless you get the chance to drop 2x of them on turn 2) and can just get them down by removing opposing creatures.
Sure it will be high variance but it can be playable.
How about adding a line of rules text like to my idea above?
Mana produced by Shade Ritual may only be used to cast Instants and Sorceries.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
1x Anowon, the Ruin Sage
4x Bloodline Keeper
4x Captivating Vampire
1x Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Kalastria Highborn
1x Mirri the Cursed
2x Nirkana Revenant
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Vampire Nocturnus
4x Dark Ritual
4x Geth's Verdict
Land (22)
21x Swamp
1x Volrath's Stronghold
Enchantment (1)
1x Greed
This deck is pretty strong for a casual deck, but without Dark Ritual it would be too slow for Modern.
Naturally, I thought about having a card like Dark Ritual that could empower a tribal deck like this and make it more relevant in Modern without breaking the format like Dark Ritual would.
Vampiric Ritual
B
Sorcery
Add BBB to your mana pool. Use this mana only to cast Vampire creatures.
This would be a fun deck to take to Modern night if a card like that existed. Without it, I wouldn't bother.
Of course Greed and Volrath's Stronghold would have to go, but they're not important. Also, naturally I'd replace Geth's Verdict with more relevent Modern removal, but for a casual deck Geth's Verdict is fine (and cheap).
Unfortunately, no. See the bannings of Rite of Flame and Seething Song
You proved my point, neither one of those cards has a big restriction stapled to it. Available for only instants and sorceries makes it restrictive enough to possibly be playable. Worried about it in multiples tack on "this spell may only be cast once per turn and its effects cannot be copied."
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
So based on Rite of Flame and Seething Song I can say emphatically that Dark ritual would be playable (and banned). But for your fixed ritual we have some other parallels we can compare it to: Manadorks are playable, but a similar card Geosurge is not. Your restriction of 3 cmc or less is what makes the card very marginal, because there is nothing at that cost or less that needs to be raced out at the cost of a card. This isn't the 90's where you can expect a hypnotic specter to do work like you suggested. People play smarter and with better cards and every deck will lov eyou to spend two cards that can be removed by 90% of the format's removal.
Yeah, but those were banned because of storm which almost exclusively casts instants and sorceries. So, your restriction wouldn't stop them from using it at all. The only thing that would actually stop them using it is how much harder it is to cast things in the modern storm deck with black mana.
Also, this thread was specifically asked to be about Dark Rit into a 3 drop CREATURE. So, if you want to discuss that idea of yours with instants and sorceries, maybe make a new thread
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
Fixed Ritual B
Sorcery
Add BBB to your mana pool. Use this only to play black creature, enchantment or sorcery spells with converted mana cost 3 or less.
This is the only way I see any possibility for a fixed version to enter Modern.
If we are discussing how it would be used, the answer is differently. Instead of Hippy on 1, it would still be used but for other things. It would see a lot of play, possibly for turn 2 Phyrexian Obliterator or other turn 2 threats. But likely not for a turn 1 3 drop. But I may be very wrong here
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Sorcery
Put a creature with converted mana cost of 3 or less from your hand into the battlefield.
Creative and cool name G
Sorcery
Put a green creature with converted mana cost of 3 or less from your hand into the battlefield.
Fixed. Been a long time since wizards gave green the best card of a set.
Oh, he's playing green? I wonder what his turn 1 play will be?
So then the question: if this card existed, would people play it in modern into hefty but vulnerable first turn fat, like Woolly Thoctar or Leatherback Baloth or Prowling Serpopard? Or would they only use it for things removal-resistant, like creatures with indestructible or hexproof or persist/undying (Troll Ascetic? Witchstalker? Kitchen Finks?)
(Rhonas the Indomitable and Dungrove Elder are usually good choices of 3-drop resilient creatures, but their utility as an accelerated T1 threat isn't so hot, given you won't have another big creature or many forests if you power one of these guys out T1)
It's a terribly dead draw later in the game, but making it an instant might make it too good...
On a side note, I wish they'd bring Sylvan Library back to modern. Moments after green combines with black to make a verduous gearhulk deck. They give white a card that prevents all counters from happening. I realize this white card will help pump out above average green creatures, but green should be able to do that on its own!!! So we move from Golgari to Selesnya. UG might end up with a deck too, the way it looks. And yet there's still creatures that want forests on the battlefield.