Hi guys, i've saw many people talking about tron and saying the deck is degenerate, unfair, and should be banned from modern.
They arguing the deck is unskilled and allow fast mana, which need to be banned from modern.
They said that they need new wasteland to delete the deck from modern and so on.
But... why ?
Why are people hating this deck so much ? Why when I play tron I usually get flame ?
Why guys ?
What are your arguments ?
Here are some of them :
- tron is unfair and stupid !
No mtg deck is stupid, and unfair mean nothing...
- tron is boring and un interactive !
The deck have removal, discard, need board control to win... how is this un interactive ? Scapeshift is un interactive, storm too, but not tron...
- the deck is unfair, ulamog t4 is so retarded and degenerate !
Eh ? How about burn consistent t4 win ? Company with infinite mana turn 3 with batista ? Storm with win turn 4 from nowhere ? 10/10 death shadow for 1 mana ?
I can go on and on but you get the point.
Why tron is so hated when they are many strategies as powerfull if not more ? Why everyone want the deck be deleted from modern ?
Reminder. Keep it civil here. Talk about the topic and be open. ~Lantern
Because it's always been there through the changing meta game. Decks become tier one, then lose their spark and the meta constantly shifts, but Tron just sits there: a looming sentinel remaining tier 1 with it's loyal ally, Affinity, sitting right by its side.
Honestly, I don't really know. I tend to build decks that are preyed upon by Tron, but I don't see why people hold it with such disdain. I guess its just the more popular something is, the more hate it receives for no reason.
From a dredge player: People get sore about losing. Especially to "Uninteractive unfun decks". Most of the time, they honestly don't know that its part of the meta game, and even if we are on the "Unfun" side, we have good matchups and bad ones, and counter some decks and lose to others. Its an ecosystem, and they just simply don't see the larger picture.
And peoples definition of fun magic is different. I personally love races and recurring things. Tron players generally aren't spikes but are johnnys who want to cast huge things. Spike players don't get why it can be appealing, but magic is a place where every type of fun should have some form of existence.
Because it's always been there through the changing meta game. Decks become tier one, then lose their spark and the meta constantly shifts, but Tron just sits there: a looming sentinel remaining tier 1 with it's loyal ally, Affinity, sitting right by its side.
Honestly, I don't really know. I tend to build decks that are preyed upon by Tron, but I don't see why people hold it with such disdain. I guess its just the more popular something is, the more hate it receives for no reason.
Its not been tier 1 for long stretches of modern. Its been tier 2 alot of its life and even dipped into tier 3 for a while. But if you mean to say people have played it since the dawn of modern, yes, you are correct. So what? Thats not a bad thing. But its only after the new eldrazi set that tron climbed to teir 1 and stayed there. Prior to that it shifed from 1 to 2 all the time.
Well, i think the criticism came from people who play midrange/control decks as this type of decks has a really bad tron MU which is really hard to fix even post sideboard, contrary to affinity/dredge decks as they fold pretty hard to sideboard hate.
Midrange and control players are the vocal minority on the internet when it comes to magic. Control players and Midrange ones talk a lot on the internet because that group of people tend to be spikes and constantly want to up their game. Seasoned aggro players don't talk much on the internet, because they get told their cards are dumb and often are much less active on the internet. Newer aggro players tend to be very new to the game and are more vocal, giving the appearance that aggro is "dumb." Combo players (and big mana) tend to talk less on the net because the same reasons as seasoned aggro, but also tend to value face time more, and think most of the internet doesn't think before they talk.
Years of my modding on this site, plus the years of my magic playing has taught me that. It give magic this appearance of things that it isnt. Most players are aggro fans, and like bashing face. The vocal minority is the control/midrange guys who complain about what they think is unfun to them or they lose to. Thus stats that beat them (infect, affinity, big mana, whatever opressive combo exists, bant eldrazi) get a bad wrap.
Thats not to say the opinions of those players are valid. Every magic player has a right to what they believe is fun. Its just most other players miss that these vocal opinions being stressed ARENT THE ONLY ONES.
Hmm, I would say also that midrange/control gets more discussion on the internet largely because the decks are more complex and have more flex slots, myself. Combo decks tend to be fairly solved, and have only a few slots that change, similar to most big mana and aggro decks.
My take on the whole big mana thing in general is that people hate it for a lot of the same reason they hate combo, except with the additional reason that it's difficult to interact with lands in modern.
Combo decks have some of the same strengths as big mana decks but with the addition of being more vulnerable to discard; big mana decks also topdeck better than combo decks, and that pisses people off (because in general the stuff that finds lands also finds threats).
I think most of the Tron hate stems from the feelbads of how violent the losses are (similarly to combo decks). When Tron goes according to planned the match feels unwinnable, and it takes a little while to get there unlike a combo deck. So you get the essentially instant win of a combo deck combined with dragging it out for a while that makes the losses feel really bad.
Tron beats any deck that tries to play a slower, controlling game generally. It has the best late-game so naturally it spells doom for anything with a slightly worse late game
I think most of the Tron hate stems from the feelbads of how violent the losses are (similarly to combo decks). When Tron goes according to planned the match feels unwinnable, and it takes a little while to get there unlike a combo deck. So you get the essentially instant win of a combo deck combined with dragging it out for a while that makes the losses feel really bad.
This describes it pretty well. It's never fun to straight up lose to a deck that "does nothing" for the first few turns, then utterly crushes you in a flurry of expensive haymakers.
It's a good deck that a monkey could pilot effectively. Find lands, tap lands, cast huge things early. Wow that was so challenging. Should I cast this Karn here on turn 3? Gee I dunno, well ok then here I go...
It's a good deck that a monkey could pilot effectively. Find lands, tap lands, cast huge things early. Wow that was so challenging. Should I cast this Karn here on turn 3? Gee I dunno, well ok then here I go...
Magic is a hard game boy design.
There is no decks that are easy to play.
Sure some decks are harder than other, but even the easiest decks are hard to pilot.
Even decks like mono red Goblin are hard to play.
I Can do the same things for 8racks.
"8 racks is so stupid, even a monkey Can play it.
Hey sir Can i play my cards ? Nope discard lel. Ho and please sir, may you sacrifice everything you have on the board?
Wow so fun. Discard, discard, discard, discard, wait, wait a little more, win. Wow that was fair and fun"
It's a good deck that a monkey could pilot effectively. Find lands, tap lands, cast huge things early. Wow that was so challenging. Should I cast this Karn here on turn 3? Gee I dunno, well ok then here I go...
Magic is a hard game boy design.
There is no decks that are easy to play.
Sure some decks are harder than other, but even the easiest decks are hard to pilot.
Even decks like mono red Goblin are hard to play.
I Can do the same things for 8racks.
"8 racks is so stupid, even a monkey Can play it.
Hey sir Can i play my cards ? Nope discard lel. Ho and please sir, may you sacrifice everything you have on the board?
Wow so fun. Discard, discard, discard, discard, wait, wait a little more, win. Wow that was fair and fun"
True but this is a thread about how we all hate Tron!
Seriously though if you consider all of the Modern decks we have, on the easy end of the spectrum you have Burn. Tron is way closer to that side than the other side.
A lot of the hate boils down to how difficult it is to interact with lands in modern. There aren't discard or counter spells for lands.
Whereas other ramp decks have to find 1 particular card (valakut, primetime, scapeshift etc) or put dorks on the battlefield, tron can hide it's shame in it's mana base. It's a similar reason people hate dredge and affinity but they feel like they've got a shot game 2 if they draw their hate. Most midrange and control decks have no fast way to improve the tron match-up without dedicating over half their sideboard to the match.
In addition to the "difficult to interact with lands" part, the on-cast triggers of Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger and World Breaker are immensely annoying to deal with. Even if you counter them, you're getting things exiled, and World Breaker can be done multiple times if killed or countered.
I actually think with tron the issue isn't the lands necessarily. There are other virtual win the game combos with similar consistency and speed, but the issue is the diversity and plethora of threats that tron enables that causes people to get mad about it. For example, has anyone ever cast pithing needle, nevermore, or memoricide vs tron? What on earth is the correct choice to name?
The diverse threat density combined with consistency makes it difficult for many types of decks to combat, and it leads to some feelsbad moments.
I like tron, I don't think it's unhealthy for the meta. I would like more good answers to it, but that's what I want in modern anyway is better answers to a lot of things.
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I think the hate boils down to Tron invalidating certain strategies that some players LOVE to hang on to. There are always decks that beat Tron. In fact, Tron hasn't been in the top 3 of decks at any time in Modern, so the hate shouldn't be as strong as it is. But players who love their Green based Midrange decks and Blue based Control decks are going to continually get stomped by Tron. Sure, Tron can beat super quick Aggro and Combo, but it doesn't do it consistently enough to be THE best deck.
I can somewhat understand the hate since when I try to build a new deck, I often see if it passes the "Tron test," although admittedly the "Burn test" is my top priority. It's just the way Tron games play out that make it seem like it takes no skill, but I doubt that Tron opponents would say the same if they could see the hands of the Tron players and see what's in their mind.
The bottom line is every Modern deck that has ever won a single match is hated, so there's no point in trying to appease everyone. It's also a good message for life in general.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
personally, i get frustrated because i am one of those people who like to try to play control. i get wrecked by tron 99 percent of the time. it's one of those matchups you just hope to dodge completely because it is so unfavorable.
another issue with fighting tron is that there are no real cards that have the blowout potential against it the same way leyline of the void does against dredge, for example. i play blue moon variants usually. while blood moon is supposed to be good against tron in theory, the reality is it only slows them down, and not by much. the other 'hate' cards out there are ghost quarter, tec edge, stony silence, and spreading seas, which have the same problem. then you have all the variants of tron that are similar but do have some significant differences. if i have to play against tron i would prefer it to be mono blue, but there is also green red, just green, eldrazi tron, green white, i've even seen green black pop up. there is plenty of room for exploring other colors with tron as well.
tron is sort of like birthing pod in a way. the lands have already proven to be powerful and they just get better the more cards get printed that work well with them. there was once a world where tron lands existed but karn and ugin weren't printed yet lest we forget. i don't think the deck is any more egregious than other villains in the format but damn is it annoying to get turn 3 kara'd.
I'm never one to get mad at the person across from me for playing a certain kind of deck. That's poor sportsmanship and kind of being a jerk.
However, as a Jund player I can tell you it's an extremely frustrating match. Jund is a fun deck to play because it involves interacting with the opponents in different ways and usually leads to a competitive game 3. It's been the closest thing to a 50/50 deck in modern. When Jund plays against Tron, you just lose 0-2 if the Tron player is a good Tron player with a good Tron deck.
Jund has had lots of bad matchups throughout Modern's history but at least with most of our bad matchups we can force a game 3 and make it competitive.
If my meta gets a lot of Tron players, I switch to GW hatebears or RW Blood Moon, because then I can beat Tron in an interactive game. I don't want to just play a deck that outraces Tron because I like interacting with my opponent. Of course, lots of people hate playing against GW hatebears, and RW Blood Moon. Some people even hate playing against Jund, and just about every deck has some haters.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
With Blue Moon you could run Molten Rain. Molten Rain basics after people search for it, and Molten Rain and Blood Moon should do a lot against Tron. People hate land destruction decks, but a big reason why people run land destruction decks is because of ramp decks like Tron.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
It really boils down to what your playing. I'm a burn player mostly and tron seems like a easy match for me. Burn is usually a turn faster than tron anddeflecting Palm is really fun way to win. If your playing a midrange or a non Counterspell control deck Tron just feels like a monster of a deck.
Tron is especially frustrating for counterspell control decks because many Tron fatties have cast triggers that still go off if the spell is countered.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
With Blue Moon you could run Molten Rain. Molten Rain basics after people search for it, and Molten Rain and Blood Moon should do a lot against Tron. People hate land destruction decks, but a big reason why people run land destruction decks is because of ramp decks like Tron.
i have run molten rain instead of/in addition to blood moon before. the issue here is do i dilute slots in my sideboard just to turn a 90/10 matchup into something of a 70/30 matchup? not worth it in my opinion. better to just be prepared for the decks you can beat and hope to dodge the ones you can't. people will always play tron but right now it seems like it's at a low point because of all the death's shadow, at least where i play.
With Blue Moon you could run Molten Rain. Molten Rain basics after people search for it, and Molten Rain and Blood Moon should do a lot against Tron. People hate land destruction decks, but a big reason why people run land destruction decks is because of ramp decks like Tron.
i have run molten rain instead of/in addition to blood moon before. the issue here is do i dilute slots in my sideboard just to turn a 90/10 matchup into something of a 70/30 matchup? not worth it in my opinion. better to just be prepared for the decks you can beat and hope to dodge the ones you can't. people will always play tron but right now it seems like it's at a low point because of all the death's shadow, at least where i play.
I'm playing BG tron ATM and the matchup vs DS is not that bad, maybe 55/45 or 60/40 in favor of DS because what's makes DS good is their discard and removal.
With tron, you are resilient to discard (the land can't be discarded and the deck topdeck pretty well) and doesn't care about fatal push.
DS is a midrange deck, DS needs some turns to turn on, you have plenty on time to activate tron and start casting big things, and DS auto loose vs Ugin.
Plus post side Thragthusk is a beat because you can tempo a lot with this dude.
i didn't mean to imply the ds matchup was bad for tron, i should have clarified, sorry. what i meant was people here tend to play the most popular deck and right now that is shadow decks.
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They arguing the deck is unskilled and allow fast mana, which need to be banned from modern.
They said that they need new wasteland to delete the deck from modern and so on.
But... why ?
Why are people hating this deck so much ? Why when I play tron I usually get flame ?
Why guys ?
What are your arguments ?
Here are some of them :
- tron is unfair and stupid !
No mtg deck is stupid, and unfair mean nothing...
- tron is boring and un interactive !
The deck have removal, discard, need board control to win... how is this un interactive ? Scapeshift is un interactive, storm too, but not tron...
- the deck is unfair, ulamog t4 is so retarded and degenerate !
Eh ? How about burn consistent t4 win ? Company with infinite mana turn 3 with batista ? Storm with win turn 4 from nowhere ? 10/10 death shadow for 1 mana ?
I can go on and on but you get the point.
Why tron is so hated when they are many strategies as powerfull if not more ? Why everyone want the deck be deleted from modern ?
Reminder. Keep it civil here. Talk about the topic and be open. ~Lantern
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
Honestly, I don't really know. I tend to build decks that are preyed upon by Tron, but I don't see why people hold it with such disdain. I guess its just the more popular something is, the more hate it receives for no reason.
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And peoples definition of fun magic is different. I personally love races and recurring things. Tron players generally aren't spikes but are johnnys who want to cast huge things. Spike players don't get why it can be appealing, but magic is a place where every type of fun should have some form of existence.
Its not been tier 1 for long stretches of modern. Its been tier 2 alot of its life and even dipped into tier 3 for a while. But if you mean to say people have played it since the dawn of modern, yes, you are correct. So what? Thats not a bad thing. But its only after the new eldrazi set that tron climbed to teir 1 and stayed there. Prior to that it shifed from 1 to 2 all the time.
Midrange and control players are the vocal minority on the internet when it comes to magic. Control players and Midrange ones talk a lot on the internet because that group of people tend to be spikes and constantly want to up their game. Seasoned aggro players don't talk much on the internet, because they get told their cards are dumb and often are much less active on the internet. Newer aggro players tend to be very new to the game and are more vocal, giving the appearance that aggro is "dumb." Combo players (and big mana) tend to talk less on the net because the same reasons as seasoned aggro, but also tend to value face time more, and think most of the internet doesn't think before they talk.
Years of my modding on this site, plus the years of my magic playing has taught me that. It give magic this appearance of things that it isnt. Most players are aggro fans, and like bashing face. The vocal minority is the control/midrange guys who complain about what they think is unfun to them or they lose to. Thus stats that beat them (infect, affinity, big mana, whatever opressive combo exists, bant eldrazi) get a bad wrap.
Thats not to say the opinions of those players are valid. Every magic player has a right to what they believe is fun. Its just most other players miss that these vocal opinions being stressed ARENT THE ONLY ONES.
Take what you read with a grain of salt.
My take on the whole big mana thing in general is that people hate it for a lot of the same reason they hate combo, except with the additional reason that it's difficult to interact with lands in modern.
Combo decks have some of the same strengths as big mana decks but with the addition of being more vulnerable to discard; big mana decks also topdeck better than combo decks, and that pisses people off (because in general the stuff that finds lands also finds threats).
I think most of the Tron hate stems from the feelbads of how violent the losses are (similarly to combo decks). When Tron goes according to planned the match feels unwinnable, and it takes a little while to get there unlike a combo deck. So you get the essentially instant win of a combo deck combined with dragging it out for a while that makes the losses feel really bad.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
This describes it pretty well. It's never fun to straight up lose to a deck that "does nothing" for the first few turns, then utterly crushes you in a flurry of expensive haymakers.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Magic is a hard game boy design.
There is no decks that are easy to play.
Sure some decks are harder than other, but even the easiest decks are hard to pilot.
Even decks like mono red Goblin are hard to play.
I Can do the same things for 8racks.
"8 racks is so stupid, even a monkey Can play it.
Hey sir Can i play my cards ? Nope discard lel. Ho and please sir, may you sacrifice everything you have on the board?
Wow so fun. Discard, discard, discard, discard, wait, wait a little more, win. Wow that was fair and fun"
Seriously though if you consider all of the Modern decks we have, on the easy end of the spectrum you have Burn. Tron is way closer to that side than the other side.
Whereas other ramp decks have to find 1 particular card (valakut, primetime, scapeshift etc) or put dorks on the battlefield, tron can hide it's shame in it's mana base. It's a similar reason people hate dredge and affinity but they feel like they've got a shot game 2 if they draw their hate. Most midrange and control decks have no fast way to improve the tron match-up without dedicating over half their sideboard to the match.
Legacy - LED Dredge, ANT & WDnT
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
The diverse threat density combined with consistency makes it difficult for many types of decks to combat, and it leads to some feelsbad moments.
I like tron, I don't think it's unhealthy for the meta. I would like more good answers to it, but that's what I want in modern anyway is better answers to a lot of things.
I can somewhat understand the hate since when I try to build a new deck, I often see if it passes the "Tron test," although admittedly the "Burn test" is my top priority. It's just the way Tron games play out that make it seem like it takes no skill, but I doubt that Tron opponents would say the same if they could see the hands of the Tron players and see what's in their mind.
The bottom line is every Modern deck that has ever won a single match is hated, so there's no point in trying to appease everyone. It's also a good message for life in general.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)another issue with fighting tron is that there are no real cards that have the blowout potential against it the same way leyline of the void does against dredge, for example. i play blue moon variants usually. while blood moon is supposed to be good against tron in theory, the reality is it only slows them down, and not by much. the other 'hate' cards out there are ghost quarter, tec edge, stony silence, and spreading seas, which have the same problem. then you have all the variants of tron that are similar but do have some significant differences. if i have to play against tron i would prefer it to be mono blue, but there is also green red, just green, eldrazi tron, green white, i've even seen green black pop up. there is plenty of room for exploring other colors with tron as well.
tron is sort of like birthing pod in a way. the lands have already proven to be powerful and they just get better the more cards get printed that work well with them. there was once a world where tron lands existed but karn and ugin weren't printed yet lest we forget. i don't think the deck is any more egregious than other villains in the format but damn is it annoying to get turn 3 kara'd.
However, as a Jund player I can tell you it's an extremely frustrating match. Jund is a fun deck to play because it involves interacting with the opponents in different ways and usually leads to a competitive game 3. It's been the closest thing to a 50/50 deck in modern. When Jund plays against Tron, you just lose 0-2 if the Tron player is a good Tron player with a good Tron deck.
Jund has had lots of bad matchups throughout Modern's history but at least with most of our bad matchups we can force a game 3 and make it competitive.
If my meta gets a lot of Tron players, I switch to GW hatebears or RW Blood Moon, because then I can beat Tron in an interactive game. I don't want to just play a deck that outraces Tron because I like interacting with my opponent. Of course, lots of people hate playing against GW hatebears, and RW Blood Moon. Some people even hate playing against Jund, and just about every deck has some haters.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Note:
Play burn or RW LD make them cry.
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
i have run molten rain instead of/in addition to blood moon before. the issue here is do i dilute slots in my sideboard just to turn a 90/10 matchup into something of a 70/30 matchup? not worth it in my opinion. better to just be prepared for the decks you can beat and hope to dodge the ones you can't. people will always play tron but right now it seems like it's at a low point because of all the death's shadow, at least where i play.
I'm playing BG tron ATM and the matchup vs DS is not that bad, maybe 55/45 or 60/40 in favor of DS because what's makes DS good is their discard and removal.
With tron, you are resilient to discard (the land can't be discarded and the deck topdeck pretty well) and doesn't care about fatal push.
DS is a midrange deck, DS needs some turns to turn on, you have plenty on time to activate tron and start casting big things, and DS auto loose vs Ugin.
Plus post side Thragthusk is a beat because you can tempo a lot with this dude.