Look, I extended an olive branch trying to dialogue about this.
In exchange, you've returned with:
1) CharonsObol says Punishing Fire invalidates creature decks
2) Zoo is a creature deck that uses Punishing Fire
3) Therefore, CharonsObol is wrong
Only if you ignore all the various other points I made.
Even though this is the internet, I'm pretty sure that most readers are capable of discerning that this response...
I don't think Punishing Fire is that great. What creature decks does it invalidate exactly?
All of them.
...is using sarcasm to prove a point. I can't believe I have to spell this out explicitly, but I didn't mean that literally every deck running creatures can no longer win games of Magic.
Even accepting some hyperbole, there remains the fact that (after the initial flurry of bans), Zoo was the best deck in the format while Punishing Fire was legal. The best deck in the format was a creature deck! And a big part of the reason for that was Punishing Fire. It's one thing to engage in a bit of hyperbole, it's another thing to talk about how it would invalidate creature decks when there's strong evidence it would actually make at least one creature deck ridiculously good. Also, even after your initial hyperbole where you made a list, I pointed out errors in that list, most notably Affinity which was a great deck while Punishing Fire was around. Even ignoring that, Affinity is a deck that's relatively good at handling removal due to cards like Arcbound Ravager and Etched Champion.
From the original 2011 B&R Announcement Explanations:
Punishing Fire, when combined with Grove of the Burnwillows, gives a repeatable 2 damage for 3 mana. This pair of cards is commonly used, and is devastating to creature decks relying on creatures with less than 2 toughness. It also is a very slow and reliable win condition, netting 1 life for 3 mana. Tribal decks relying on 2 toughness "lords" see very little play, and this is a major barrier to their success.
More or less, I've repeated this justification using different words. You've chosen to argue with me about it. I'm not sure why you've chosen to argue with me - especially since you conceded that you're not necessarily advocating its unbanning - but here we are. You don't have to take it from me that Punishing Fire reduces deck diversity by crippling small creature decks; you can literally take it from WotC instead. WotC was pretty clear about it. I've been pretty clear about it. And your only response has been that the prevalence of Zoo and Affinity between October and December of 2011 is proof that creature decks will still exist.
Well, no, I also pointed out that creature decks didn't suddenly get a lot better after the banning, which would have been the case had Punishing Fire been holding them down. For example, look at that description. "Tribal decks relying on 2 toughness "lords" see very little play." Want to know what happened after the ban? Tribal decks relying on 2 toughness "lords" (e.g. Elves, Merfolk, Slivers) continued to see very little play! Elves and Merfolk did eventually become much better, but that occurred years after the Punishing Fire ban and coincided with them getting some new tech. As a result, it is highly questionable whether Punishing Fire was actually the card keeping those decks down.
The main reason I'm being so argumentative is that I just think your arguments on this matter are pretty weak. In fact, up until this entire exchange I was very much against a Punishing Fire unban, but this whole conversation has actually moved me more towards thinking it'd be an okay unban.
I think you are underestimating the MtG community at large. I know there are random no banlist modern events here and there for fun, but if you had the entire mtg modern community from my brother in law and I testing in a kitchen all the way up to team CFB preparing for a pro tour working on Hypergenesis, I bet it would go from absolutely busted but a gamble to absolutely busted and surprisingly consistent. Took people a year to break Aetherworks Marvel in half...
I think you're overlooking the impact bans played in Aetherworks Marvel's rise. All of the bans worked to make the deck better. It was one of the few decks that didn't run Smuggler's Copter, so that banning obviously benefited it. Reflector Mage was a hit to what was probably the best deck in the format, UW Flash, thereby enabling the other decks, Aetherworks Marvel included. The Emrakul ban did hurt it a little, but Ulamog was an easy replacement and the ban did a lot more to hurt the Delirium control decks. So basically, every single deck got weakened except for Aetherworks Marvel, which was already a decent deck. Likely the only reason it didn't take over the format right after those bannings was that CopyCat came along and disrupted the metagame until it was itself banned.
It's fascinating to me how polarizing Splinter Twin is here. I think the only other decks that generate this much fervor here are Eldrazi and Storm, with the latter being pretty recent. So with what little facts I have, and the experiences I've had playing against these decks, I'm going to do my best to see what all the fuss is about.
1) Splinter Twin: Arguably the best URx build before being banned. Wouldn't be quite as resilient in today's Modern as it was two years ago. Eats alive decks with minimal interaction. Possible effects on the current meta: speeds it up, knocks down big Mana, bolsters control and/or Jund, encourages more interactive builds.
2) Eldrazi Tron: Current favored build involving Tron lands. Uses 'unfair' Mana ramp to bring out devastating creatures. (Ab)uses Chalice of the Void to gain advantage over decks it would normally be weak against. Folds to fast, linear decks. Struggles against certain combo decks and GDS. Invokes bias against Eldrazi tribe. Can hit you with one of the worst feelsbadman effects.
3) Storm: Combo deck gaining popularity primarily due to relative low cost and matchup against Eldrazi Tron and Scapeshift (just my opinion). Has a possible Turn 3 kill, and can at times feel impossible to turn the tide against. Folds hard to interaction. Struggles against GDS. Vulnerable to Graveyard hate and a number of silver bullets. Fairly easy to pilot.
Those are my quick thoughts. I have more experience against Eldrazi Tron and Storm than I do Splinter Twin, so feel free to point out and/or expand on things I've said that don't stack up. I have mixed feelings about it being unbanned. On one hand I feel like it would be like trying to put out a fire with gasoline, in the sense that it's adding a fast, linear deck to a format that has a ton of those already. On the other hand, because it's vulnerable to a lot of interaction, it could definitely bolster Jund and Control decks, which it traditionally had a tough time against.
In that case ashton (and you should get paid imo) I'll just disagree with you. If Eldrazi deserve to see play still, so does Twin. Its no less warping, and many would say its more so.
"OH NOS I CANNOT TAP OUT ON TURN 3?!"
The horror.
Of course I am paid, just not per hit. FWIW I played Delver decks for most of my time in Modern which had an excellent Twin matchup and the deck was one of the most fun to play against IMO. But everyone enjoys different things. Since Twin was banned, the amount of three-drops that have become playable has gone way up, and Modern has become far more diverse. Just look at the n u m b e r s. Additionally, the playerbase has grown exponentially. It's harder to trace that directly to the Twin ban (and I wouldn't try to), but again, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Wizards likes Modern right now; why would they unban a card that's almost sure to make a major impact?
I believe a Jace unban is 100% unrealistic, you have half the pro community against the card, and I believe WOTC will take that into account.
they are dummie's
Remember the hundreds (thousands?) of pro-written articles on the horrors of Blood Moon and Manamorphose (that are still written to this day)? Pros are coming around on Modern in droves, but despite that, many of them still loathe the format and/or routinely misunderstand it. If you can point me to a few sources that indicate Wizards highly values what pros think about Modern, then your point does have value, but I can't recall any myself.
Personally I don't think it's possible to have an "objective" or "unbaised" opinion about the banlist, so of course I would never claim to be neutral in my analysis. I would like to see some examples of unbiased banlist pieces if you have read some (I have not).
Of course nothing is going to be truly unbiased but you can minimize bias by simply sticking to the facts and specifics. It's not a defense to say well other articles are biased so I'm going to splurge out all my biases in one article. I literally wrote down a rough form of a "how to write an article with minimum bias" in my last response. It's your choice whether you take on board constructive criticism or ignore it but don't then act all defensive about it when you post a link to an article full of personal bias and expect people to praise it. You are a regular here, you know how much, well deserved, stick those articles get.
I would like to see some examples of unbiased banlist pieces if you have read some (I have not).
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Yes, we've talked about that, how money=/=power level or unban/ban warranting. If Jace were unbanned, and rebanned, and people lost out on 400 dollars worth a playset, there would be huge repercussions.
All Jace is going to do is possibly make Grixis Death Shadow better, make blue decks inbred to revolve around Jace, eliminate GBx even further (which isn't and hasn't been in a great place this year), and still have a lot of the similar issues it has.
SFM and Twin will kinda do the same thing as Jace in that aspect, nearly every fair deck in modern will jam SFM. We'd definitely see all forms of midrange and control blue decks shrink and become Twin.
It's impossible not to be biased, but I do think you have Jace WAY too high on that list; I absolutely do not believe he'll see an unban before BBE.
My biases would be something like
BBE
SFM
Twin
Jace
I know everyone likes to mention dig through time once in a while, but I don't think that card will ever see the light of modern unless the power creep is beyond real in this format.
Blazing Soal shouldn't be considered, it doesn't benefit the format whatsoever, it just begs for someone to break it
WOTC did a good job not making a huge shakeup before the pro-tour. For all we know, there may be something extremely broken in the format we aren't even aware of yet.
*Looks into this thread after 6+ months, sees people are still or again talking about Twin, goes*
Apparently I haven't missed anything.
Greetings,
Kathal
Directly tied to Wizards stating this at the last B&R update: "[W]e did discuss unbanning in Modern. ... We anticipate making an announcement in February after the results from that tournament come in."
Well that, and a bunch more poking-the-bear with heavily slanted comments being passed off as hard facts. So I guess more of the same?
There are also still people fairly uneasy about what eldrazi tron does to midrange and blue decks
there are still unban conversations about stoneforge and not jitte (though Id love jitte over stoneforge)
There are still people unhappy with their storm matchup
This place isnt going to change much, but modern is a positive non-mistake based change away from being the best its ever been. And this is coming from a faerie player who struggles to metagame into a dominant showing. Im trying to be patient and wait for effective modern support like fatal push in blue, but no, I dont think opt was it.
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Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
Brennan argues that making modern a pro tour format is a terrible idea
His quote here is what I have been saying for months:
"The real reason I think Modern is the worst it's ever been is that there is no way to prepare for a competitive tournament without sacrificing more than a dozen matchups and just hoping for good pairings. I've never seen a format with such linear decks all just racing to the finish line, doing what little they can to disrupt one another while being dead to a few narrow sideboard cards they're hoping to dodge along the way."
Of course nothing is going to be truly unbiased but you can minimize bias by simply sticking to the facts and specifics. It's not a defense to say well other articles are biased so I'm going to splurge out all my biases in one article. I literally wrote down a rough form of a "how to write an article with minimum bias" in my last response. It's your choice whether you take on board constructive criticism or ignore it but don't then act all defensive about it when you post a link to an article full of personal bias and expect people to praise it. You are a regular here, you know how much, well deserved, stick those articles get.
You can't expect others to come off as unbiased as Sheridan. He is one of a kind and I know he's sorely missed here (he doesn't post often anymore). Even though I disagreed with him on a lot of things, I had to admit that he was one of a kind in that he didn't reveal some sort of bias in his posts.
Anybody else is going to come off as pretty biased in their Banlist suggestions. I, for one, am very biased, but I try to support some sort of archetype diversity in Modern because I realize the importance of it. Besides, you know as well as I do, that articles without bias are simply not going to get read as often or replied to as often as articles with bias. There's always something to argue about, lol.
Eldrazi creatures and fatal push has warped this format far more than anything in a while. Shadow was good, but I also feel Shadow was built because players were frustrated with Urza lands.
I do think Twin/Jund/Infect/Affinity was a better modern format, but I'm still happy with modern.
Splinter Twin would be a good deck to help fight off Storm, E-Tron and Titanshift.
aggro creature would probably be bolstered in numbers and we'd have less degenerate, linear decks.
My money is on BBE, I think people hoping for SFM or Twin are in for dissapointment
It feels like SFM has a 25% chance, while BBE has a 50% chance.
I believe a Jace unban is 100% unrealistic, you have half the pro community against the card, and I believe WOTC will take that into account.
I agree with a lot of this. But Jace, the Mind Sculptor being unbanned as a "no." I don't agree with that. Wizards could literally wait until the next Modern Masters set and have Jace, the Mind Sculptor as the posterboy (like he was before for Worldwake) for the set. How many people will buy packs of Modern Masters if Jace is in the packs? I own 9 JTMS and I don't buy packs outside of Limited, but I know I would play a LOT of Limited if Jace were in it. It sells itself! People that claim that Jace will skyrocket to $500 also fail to realize that it is in EMA as well. Jace's ceiling is probably at around $100 and will go down. Regardless, Modern unbannings shouldn't rely on the potential price of the card. That's a terrible way to do it. A better way is to use that price to stimulate sales of ancillary sets, while simultaneously unbanning a card that is pretty harmless. This is not Cawblade Standard with Stoneforge Mystic and Swords/B Skull. Modern is at least a bit stronger than that. I'd LOOOVE to see that argued by someone.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Brennan argues that making modern a pro tour format is a terrible idea
His quote here is what I have been saying for months:
"The real reason I think Modern is the worst it's ever been is that there is no way to prepare for a competitive tournament without sacrificing more than a dozen matchups and just hoping for good pairings. I've never seen a format with such linear decks all just racing to the finish line, doing what little they can to disrupt one another while being dead to a few narrow sideboard cards they're hoping to dodge along the way."
Something else the article mentioned is that there is no easy fix for the aforementioned problem. Even the suggestion of increasing the sideboard limit, while it works, is something I think Wizards would be very hesitant to implement. I sure as heck don't have any other ideas, and I think it is a legitimate concern that Wizards might do something drastic just to shake the format up.
Somewhat of a catch-22, really. I understand the desire/need for strong control decks in the format, and Twin would bring some of those back to Modern. On the flipside, once it's unbanned, you can't justify running a URx deck without slotting Twin into it. It's not really a power-level problem but a diversity problem. The real question is how many people really care about that latter problem? Is it even a problem? I honestly don't know. SFM is often subject to similar criticism, and very few people argue that it isn't a safe unban.
With concerns to unbanning [REDACTED], this is how I see it.
If [REDACTED] were allowed back into the format, we'd have a URx Combo/Control deck possibly take the forefront of the modern scene once again. Now this isn't a bad thing. However, the diversity of what URx decks are doing will basically be split into two categories:
A) You play URx [REDACTED]
B) You play Grixis Shadow
Grixis Shadow is the only URx deck in the format, where the [REDACTED] doesn't just easily slot into it. But with every other version of URx, you'll always need to ask yourself, "Should I just be running [REDACTED]?"
I think at the end of the day the unbanning of [REDACTED] will lead to an overall benefit to the Modern format, even if it does narrow what URx decks can do.
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I'm interested in seeing if they unban something this coming year. I've heard wizards mention they may be doing something like that this year and the only two cards I can think of that might happen with are Bloodbraid Elf and Deathrite Shaman. They could unban Jace, but I'm not sure he'd do much.
My actual gut instinct is screaming "Don't do it wizards!" mostly because they probably will print something in the upcoming set and make everyone hate them for unbanning X card. That or they unban something that is just that bad by itself.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Grixis Shadow is the only URx deck in the format, where the [REDACTED] doesn't just easily slot into it. But with every other version of URx, you'll always need to ask yourself, "Should I just be running [REDACTED]?"
I think the better question is "If I want to win, why would I waste my time playing ANYTHING URx, other than GDS?"
I'm curious what other URx decks people think are having tons of success that would be supplanted? Delver is dead, Control is dead, maybe Jeskai Midrange/Geist? A deck that had existed well throughout Twin's time? I always found this justification wildly unsupported and incredibly weak, just like URx decks without Twin.
I think at the end of the day the unbanning of [REDACTED] will lead to an overall benefit to the Modern format, even if it does narrow what URx decks can do.
I agree. And even if it does "narrow all those URx decks," what are you narrowing? A bunch of mediocre T2/T3 decks?
I'm interested in seeing if they unban something this coming year. I've heard wizards mention they may be doing something like that this year and the only two cards I can think of that might happen with are Bloodbraid Elf and Deathrite Shaman. They could unban Jace, but I'm not sure he'd do much.
Did you mean to write something else? Putting Deathrite Shaman as one of the most plausible unbannings doesn't make sense. Or are you saying you think Deathrite might get banned in Legacy?
Brennan's article in a nutshell: I hate modern because I can't try to get a deck with a 60% winrate against the entire field. Screw pros. I don't want that elitist class dictating the game.
I'm interested in seeing if they unban something this coming year. I've heard wizards mention they may be doing something like that this year and the only two cards I can think of that might happen with are Bloodbraid Elf and Deathrite Shaman. They could unban Jace, but I'm not sure he'd do much.
Did you mean to write something else? Putting Deathrite Shaman as one of the most plausible unbannings doesn't make sense. Or are you saying you think Deathrite might get banned in Legacy?
I'm actually serious about them unbanning DRS, and equally serious about the second part of my statement saying "for the love of all people, don't do it!" Unbanning anything seems like a bad idea unless they are saying they made an unpopular banning and think that undoing it will bring people back into playing the game again. I'm way more on board with Bloodbraid Elf making a potentially triumphant return to modern, though if the past proved anything it could just be yet another Golgari Gravetroll situation.
You could say the point of my post is to point out how ludicrous the idea of unbanning something probably is. They are basically adding new cards to the game every standard set, each one of those cards has the possibility of fitting a role that a banned card may have filled, and undoing a banning on an old card while introducing a new one can be a problem (for example, see Exhibit A: Golgari Grave-troll).
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Grixis Shadow is the only URx deck in the format, where the [REDACTED] doesn't just easily slot into it. But with every other version of URx, you'll always need to ask yourself, "Should I just be running [REDACTED]?"
I think the better question is "If I want to win, why would I waste my time playing ANYTHING URx, other than GDS?"
I'm curious what other URx decks people think are having tons of success that would be supplanted? Delver is dead, Control is dead, maybe Jeskai Midrange/Geist? A deck that had existed well throughout Twin's time? I always found this justification wildly unsupported and incredibly weak, just like URx decks without Twin.
I think at the end of the day the unbanning of [REDACTED] will lead to an overall benefit to the Modern format, even if it does narrow what URx decks can do.
I agree. And even if it does "narrow all those URx decks," what are you narrowing? A bunch of mediocre T2/T3 decks?
Your awful attitude makes it so difficult to be nice or patient with you
Jeskai is a good deck. I watched a guy go undefeated going into the top 8 of the PPTQ I last attended, and it won an Open not long ago, with healthy numbers from last weekend. I went 4-0 last night handily against 3 out of 4 players, my only game losses was because of a poor sequencing choice I made and Ponza playing a turn 2 Blood Moon while I was on the draw. i beat everyone down with Quellers and burn to the face. Geist and Colonnades won the other half.
Seriously, I'm not trying to be inflammatory, but you are toxic to this thread.
Jeskai is a GOOD bolt snap bolt deck, and Jeskai Queller embodies a tempo creature in modern.
Actually, why is Collected Company still around? I'm still scratching my head on how that isn't as bad as Birthing Pod as the more "good creatures" they make, the better that card is going to get. Fishing around the ban list and the reasons why things were banned to begin with is a bit eye opening. Also frustrating, but eye opening.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Brennan's article in a nutshell: I hate modern because I can't try to get a deck with a 60% winrate against the entire field. Screw pros. I don't want that elitist class dictating the game.
I read that article and was annoyed. I was even more annoyed to see him in the top 8 for player of the year on SCG.
He's basically saying he dislikes that there aren't 4 decks to meta against and linear nature of modern.
Luckily it was a garbage article in the free section. His articles are rarely interesting and full of fluff pieces.
Actually, why is Collected Company still around? I'm still scratching my head on how that isn't as bad as Birthing Pod as the more "good creatures" they make, the better that card is going to get. Fishing around the ban list and the reasons why things were banned to begin with is a bit eye opening. Also frustrating, but eye opening.
Pretty sure the biggest reason is because CoCo decks just aren't dominant enough. If CoCo decks started having showings as strong as Birthing Pod decks did prior to its banning, it probably would be banned for the same reason that Birthing Pod was banned, but until then, there's simply no reason to hit it
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Decks
Modern: UWUW Control UBRGrixis Shadow URIzzet Phoenix
Even accepting some hyperbole, there remains the fact that (after the initial flurry of bans), Zoo was the best deck in the format while Punishing Fire was legal. The best deck in the format was a creature deck! And a big part of the reason for that was Punishing Fire. It's one thing to engage in a bit of hyperbole, it's another thing to talk about how it would invalidate creature decks when there's strong evidence it would actually make at least one creature deck ridiculously good. Also, even after your initial hyperbole where you made a list, I pointed out errors in that list, most notably Affinity which was a great deck while Punishing Fire was around. Even ignoring that, Affinity is a deck that's relatively good at handling removal due to cards like Arcbound Ravager and Etched Champion.
Well, no, I also pointed out that creature decks didn't suddenly get a lot better after the banning, which would have been the case had Punishing Fire been holding them down. For example, look at that description. "Tribal decks relying on 2 toughness "lords" see very little play." Want to know what happened after the ban? Tribal decks relying on 2 toughness "lords" (e.g. Elves, Merfolk, Slivers) continued to see very little play! Elves and Merfolk did eventually become much better, but that occurred years after the Punishing Fire ban and coincided with them getting some new tech. As a result, it is highly questionable whether Punishing Fire was actually the card keeping those decks down.
The main reason I'm being so argumentative is that I just think your arguments on this matter are pretty weak. In fact, up until this entire exchange I was very much against a Punishing Fire unban, but this whole conversation has actually moved me more towards thinking it'd be an okay unban.
1) Splinter Twin: Arguably the best URx build before being banned. Wouldn't be quite as resilient in today's Modern as it was two years ago. Eats alive decks with minimal interaction. Possible effects on the current meta: speeds it up, knocks down big Mana, bolsters control and/or Jund, encourages more interactive builds.
2) Eldrazi Tron: Current favored build involving Tron lands. Uses 'unfair' Mana ramp to bring out devastating creatures. (Ab)uses Chalice of the Void to gain advantage over decks it would normally be weak against. Folds to fast, linear decks. Struggles against certain combo decks and GDS. Invokes bias against Eldrazi tribe. Can hit you with one of the worst feelsbadman effects.
3) Storm: Combo deck gaining popularity primarily due to relative low cost and matchup against Eldrazi Tron and Scapeshift (just my opinion). Has a possible Turn 3 kill, and can at times feel impossible to turn the tide against. Folds hard to interaction. Struggles against GDS. Vulnerable to Graveyard hate and a number of silver bullets. Fairly easy to pilot.
Those are my quick thoughts. I have more experience against Eldrazi Tron and Storm than I do Splinter Twin, so feel free to point out and/or expand on things I've said that don't stack up. I have mixed feelings about it being unbanned. On one hand I feel like it would be like trying to put out a fire with gasoline, in the sense that it's adding a fast, linear deck to a format that has a ton of those already. On the other hand, because it's vulnerable to a lot of interaction, it could definitely bolster Jund and Control decks, which it traditionally had a tough time against.
Remember the hundreds (thousands?) of pro-written articles on the horrors of Blood Moon and Manamorphose (that are still written to this day)? Pros are coming around on Modern in droves, but despite that, many of them still loathe the format and/or routinely misunderstand it. If you can point me to a few sources that indicate Wizards highly values what pros think about Modern, then your point does have value, but I can't recall any myself. I would like to see some examples of unbiased banlist pieces if you have read some (I have not).
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Yes, we've talked about that, how money=/=power level or unban/ban warranting. If Jace were unbanned, and rebanned, and people lost out on 400 dollars worth a playset, there would be huge repercussions.
All Jace is going to do is possibly make Grixis Death Shadow better, make blue decks inbred to revolve around Jace, eliminate GBx even further (which isn't and hasn't been in a great place this year), and still have a lot of the similar issues it has.
SFM and Twin will kinda do the same thing as Jace in that aspect, nearly every fair deck in modern will jam SFM. We'd definitely see all forms of midrange and control blue decks shrink and become Twin.
It's impossible not to be biased, but I do think you have Jace WAY too high on that list; I absolutely do not believe he'll see an unban before BBE.
My biases would be something like
BBE
SFM
Twin
Jace
I know everyone likes to mention dig through time once in a while, but I don't think that card will ever see the light of modern unless the power creep is beyond real in this format.
Blazing Soal shouldn't be considered, it doesn't benefit the format whatsoever, it just begs for someone to break it
WOTC did a good job not making a huge shakeup before the pro-tour. For all we know, there may be something extremely broken in the format we aren't even aware of yet.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/36037_Modern-The-Worst-Its-Ever-Been.html
Brennan argues that making modern a pro tour format is a terrible idea
Apparently I haven't missed anything.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Directly tied to Wizards stating this at the last B&R update: "[W]e did discuss unbanning in Modern. ... We anticipate making an announcement in February after the results from that tournament come in."
Well that, and a bunch more poking-the-bear with heavily slanted comments being passed off as hard facts. So I guess more of the same?
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
there are still unban conversations about stoneforge and not jitte (though Id love jitte over stoneforge)
There are still people unhappy with their storm matchup
This place isnt going to change much, but modern is a positive non-mistake based change away from being the best its ever been. And this is coming from a faerie player who struggles to metagame into a dominant showing. Im trying to be patient and wait for effective modern support like fatal push in blue, but no, I dont think opt was it.
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
His quote here is what I have been saying for months:
"The real reason I think Modern is the worst it's ever been is that there is no way to prepare for a competitive tournament without sacrificing more than a dozen matchups and just hoping for good pairings. I've never seen a format with such linear decks all just racing to the finish line, doing what little they can to disrupt one another while being dead to a few narrow sideboard cards they're hoping to dodge along the way."
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
You can't expect others to come off as unbiased as Sheridan. He is one of a kind and I know he's sorely missed here (he doesn't post often anymore). Even though I disagreed with him on a lot of things, I had to admit that he was one of a kind in that he didn't reveal some sort of bias in his posts.
Anybody else is going to come off as pretty biased in their Banlist suggestions. I, for one, am very biased, but I try to support some sort of archetype diversity in Modern because I realize the importance of it. Besides, you know as well as I do, that articles without bias are simply not going to get read as often or replied to as often as articles with bias. There's always something to argue about, lol.
I agree with a lot of this. But Jace, the Mind Sculptor being unbanned as a "no." I don't agree with that. Wizards could literally wait until the next Modern Masters set and have Jace, the Mind Sculptor as the posterboy (like he was before for Worldwake) for the set. How many people will buy packs of Modern Masters if Jace is in the packs? I own 9 JTMS and I don't buy packs outside of Limited, but I know I would play a LOT of Limited if Jace were in it. It sells itself! People that claim that Jace will skyrocket to $500 also fail to realize that it is in EMA as well. Jace's ceiling is probably at around $100 and will go down. Regardless, Modern unbannings shouldn't rely on the potential price of the card. That's a terrible way to do it. A better way is to use that price to stimulate sales of ancillary sets, while simultaneously unbanning a card that is pretty harmless. This is not Cawblade Standard with Stoneforge Mystic and Swords/B Skull. Modern is at least a bit stronger than that. I'd LOOOVE to see that argued by someone.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Something else the article mentioned is that there is no easy fix for the aforementioned problem. Even the suggestion of increasing the sideboard limit, while it works, is something I think Wizards would be very hesitant to implement. I sure as heck don't have any other ideas, and I think it is a legitimate concern that Wizards might do something drastic just to shake the format up.
CG
If [REDACTED] were allowed back into the format, we'd have a URx Combo/Control deck possibly take the forefront of the modern scene once again. Now this isn't a bad thing. However, the diversity of what URx decks are doing will basically be split into two categories:
A) You play URx [REDACTED]
B) You play Grixis Shadow
Grixis Shadow is the only URx deck in the format, where the [REDACTED] doesn't just easily slot into it. But with every other version of URx, you'll always need to ask yourself, "Should I just be running [REDACTED]?"
I think at the end of the day the unbanning of [REDACTED] will lead to an overall benefit to the Modern format, even if it does narrow what URx decks can do.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
My actual gut instinct is screaming "Don't do it wizards!" mostly because they probably will print something in the upcoming set and make everyone hate them for unbanning X card. That or they unban something that is just that bad by itself.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I'm curious what other URx decks people think are having tons of success that would be supplanted? Delver is dead, Control is dead, maybe Jeskai Midrange/Geist? A deck that had existed well throughout Twin's time? I always found this justification wildly unsupported and incredibly weak, just like URx decks without Twin. I agree. And even if it does "narrow all those URx decks," what are you narrowing? A bunch of mediocre T2/T3 decks?
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I'm actually serious about them unbanning DRS, and equally serious about the second part of my statement saying "for the love of all people, don't do it!" Unbanning anything seems like a bad idea unless they are saying they made an unpopular banning and think that undoing it will bring people back into playing the game again. I'm way more on board with Bloodbraid Elf making a potentially triumphant return to modern, though if the past proved anything it could just be yet another Golgari Gravetroll situation.
You could say the point of my post is to point out how ludicrous the idea of unbanning something probably is. They are basically adding new cards to the game every standard set, each one of those cards has the possibility of fitting a role that a banned card may have filled, and undoing a banning on an old card while introducing a new one can be a problem (for example, see Exhibit A: Golgari Grave-troll).
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Your awful attitude makes it so difficult to be nice or patient with you
Jeskai is a good deck. I watched a guy go undefeated going into the top 8 of the PPTQ I last attended, and it won an Open not long ago, with healthy numbers from last weekend. I went 4-0 last night handily against 3 out of 4 players, my only game losses was because of a poor sequencing choice I made and Ponza playing a turn 2 Blood Moon while I was on the draw. i beat everyone down with Quellers and burn to the face. Geist and Colonnades won the other half.
Seriously, I'm not trying to be inflammatory, but you are toxic to this thread.
Jeskai is a GOOD bolt snap bolt deck, and Jeskai Queller embodies a tempo creature in modern.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I read that article and was annoyed. I was even more annoyed to see him in the top 8 for player of the year on SCG.
He's basically saying he dislikes that there aren't 4 decks to meta against and linear nature of modern.
Luckily it was a garbage article in the free section. His articles are rarely interesting and full of fluff pieces.
Modern:
UWUW Control
UBRGrixis Shadow
URIzzet Phoenix
Card is powerful but not broken.
DRS is never, ever coming off the ban-list, nor should it.
Turn 2 LOTV, Lifegain, damage. 1/1 body. He's a good card at every stage of the game, and oppressive for graveyard decks.
I'm curious to see if there's any oppressive deck in the pro tour