I always disliked the play advantage also. Main reason is in a 4 turn environment you have ylthis issue. Mana available to player A is 10 1+2+3+4. Mana available to player B is only 6. 1+2+3. The best conclusion is that having almost 50% more Mana available is something to do with this. Now my solutions.
Each format should have different rules to govern. Just like sets have different ban lists. Any of these will help.
1 (medium effect)Modern should first allow the player on the draw to take a free mull if he or she so decides.
2. (Smallest effect)Player on the draw should be allowed a free scry. This allows the responding player to have a little better starting position rather than just a straight uphill battle.
3 (largest effect)player on the draw can search their library for a basic land at the start of the game and put it into play. And then skips the first draw. This changes the equation from 10 Mana to 6 to 10 Mana to 9. 2+3+4.
Any of these would help the environment greatly.
This is why I always promote the practicing of the dice roll in this format, it is one of the FEW things you can actually control the outcome of a match with. Going second in Modern is a death sentence more often than not.
Uh what? Explain what you mean, because this (as written) just sounds like blatant cheating :S.
How do you even "practice" rolling dice? Wtf?
If you're genuinely suggesting that people try to manipulate the die roll to hit a certain number or range then I'm afraid I just lost all respect for you.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
3 (largest effect)player on the draw can search their library for a basic land at the start of the game and put it into play. And then skips the first draw. This changes the equation from 10 Mana to 6 to 10 Mana to 9. 2+3+4.
Any of these would help the environment greatly.
Even just playing a land from your hand. I like Basics matter though. Instants go up in value but at least it allows a degree of interaction T1. Or the potential for interaction at least. Control would benefit more than aggro but not sure this is exactly a bad thing.
I must admit, I disagree with the OP and with all of you who are saying that the advantage to the player playing first is a 'problem to be solved'.
As has been pointed out, in tournaments, the advantage of going first actually evens out over multiple rounds.
On a game by game basis, the person who plays first has an advantage. Obviously. And, that's not a bug, it's a feature. Most games and sports are like this and it doesn't make them any more or less 'fair'.
One of the great things about Magic is that it's so flexible that you can actually adjust your play style (within the confines of your opening 8) based on play order. Or to put it in more concrete terms, if play order really were a huge issue, I think we'd be seeing more decks with Simian Spirit Guides and Gemstone Caverns for turn 0 shenanigans.
Another great thing about this game, and something I've loved since I started playing 24 years ago, is that it's as much as about skill as it is about luck. The comparison with Chess is apt, but so is the comparison with Poker. You have to do the best you can with the hand you draw.
If you take away the element of chance that the roll of the dice is a part of (and the choice of play/draw), you fundamentally change this game, in my opinion, for the worse because you remove some of that chance element.
3 (largest effect)player on the draw can search their library for a basic land at the start of the game and put it into play. And then skips the first draw. This changes the equation from 10 Mana to 6 to 10 Mana to 9. 2+3+4.
Any of these would help the environment greatly.
Even just playing a land from your hand. I like Basics matter though. Instants go up in value but at least it allows a degree of interaction T1. Or the potential for interaction at least. Control would benefit more than aggro but not sure this is exactly a bad thing.
Well imagine you're playing Burn : all of the sudden, you can snap keep a 1-lander on the draw, fetch a free land from the deck for your trouble, and open with 2x Goblin Guide... that sounds pretty neat. The idea sounds interesting to say the least.
I'd be much more concerned about combo decks... If Ad Nauseam could start the game with 2 mana instead of 1, Turn 3 kill become much more likely. And Storm could even win as quickly as Turn2.
I honestly have no problem with what you said. Take ad nauseum for example. Okay it can kill on turn 3 under this rule. That's in some way different than then ad nauseum going first and killing on turn 4? It even s the odds greatly. If I'm on the play and you are ad nauseum on the draw then I know a few things.
A) I must race you, which is vastly more fair a race now.
B) I need to use my Mana advantage to keep your spells in check.
C) I'm still going first and you are about to get iok, and seized out so it doesn't really matter anyways.
Now storm was also mentioned. Well that is a hit or miss thing. I can still board in hate ,probably did unless game 1. I can still iok or seize your fast fast kill out if your hand. Still use counters to prevent you from going off. How is storm killing on turn 2 on the draw different than them killing turn 3 on the play again anyways?
It wouldn't be on the play or draw for modern. It would be on the play or the basic. Some players would choose to be in the basic rather than on the draw because of the advantage it gives them.... How many players choose to be in the draw right now? Case and point.
This is why I always promote the practicing of the dice roll in this format, it is one of the FEW things you can actually control the outcome of a match with. Going second in Modern is a death sentence more often than not.
Uh what? Explain what you mean, because this (as written) just sounds like blatant cheating :S.
How do you even "practice" rolling dice? Wtf?
If you're genuinely suggesting that people try to manipulate the die roll to hit a certain number or range then I'm afraid I just lost all respect for you.
I doubt sisicat will be responding since he got banned.
There is actually a way to roll high on dice. Infact there is a way you can actually roll a 6 nearly every time on a 6 sided die. While I'd never suggest doing this. And OMG is it obvious, but if you hold the die with the 1 up and hold the die like you are gripping from over the die rather than in the palm of your hand. You can flip it slightly up and slightly forward so it will bounce only twice on impact with the table. The number on the opposite side of a 1 is a 6. My friend and I actually did do this when we played FRIENDLY matches of mageknight back in the day. You have no idea how crazy those games can be when you are almost always guaranteed a critical from each and every character. Lol
But yeah. Cheating when not in just for fun matches is definitely something I'd never do or suggest.
@Seymour_tubes
Oh really? Can't say i'm surprised haha, but having looked at his profile page I can't see any indication of this. How does one tell if another user is banned without resorting to rumour?
Merfolk; is it me or is merfolk the most reliant deck in terms of being on the play? I can't think of another deck that relies so heavily on such a tiny margin of time in order to win. Games are often won just a sliver ahead of an opponent being able to win. Tricky! It'd be interesting to draw up some kind of analysis of the decks most affected by play advantage, with the biggest win/loss swing when forced to draw.
@Seymour_tubes
Oh really? Can't say i'm surprised haha, but having looked at his profile page I can't see any indication of this. How does one tell if another user is banned without resorting to rumour?
Merfolk; is it me or is merfolk the most reliant deck in terms of being on the play? I can't think of another deck that relies so heavily on such a tiny margin of time in order to win. Games are often won just a sliver ahead of an opponent being able to win. Tricky! It'd be interesting to draw up some kind of analysis of the decks most affected by play advantage, with the biggest win/loss swing when forced to draw.
Decks that benefit most from taking the play:
Gx Tron (needs to assemble tron pieces, can only do so one turn at a time)
Merfolk (needs to assemble a team of fish)
Valakut (pure race)
Decks that don't care as much:
Grixis Shadow (you are disrupting them more than you are racing the opponent)
UWx control
8-Rack (wants to have more card advantage than the opponent. taking the draw facilitates this)
That's just a preliminary guess on my part. What is comes down to is - if you are just looking you race you want to play first. If you are looking to grind out and constantly trade resources, it's not as necessary to play first and sometimes you want to draw first. Most modern decks fall under the first category and hence want to play first. Recently there have been decks appearing that operate on the second axis (8 rack most notably)
I've argued this in the past, but reducing the opening hand size from 7 to 6 would likely solve all issues of play/draw imbalance.
How exactly?
Are you saying one player starts with 6 instead of 7? Or both players start with 6 instead of 7?
Why does this change benefit either player?
I still think the best way to fix the play/draw win percentage is what has been discussed in this thread before:
1. Whatever player has the play or the draw is not determined by random chance
2. The player on the draw has an additional start of game benefit (say one free mulligan before going down to 6 cards)
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I've argued this in the past, but reducing the opening hand size from 7 to 6 would likely solve all issues of play/draw imbalance.
How exactly?
Are you saying one player starts with 6 instead of 7? Or both players start with 6 instead of 7?
Why does this change benefit either player?
I still think the best way to fix the play/draw win percentage is what has been discussed in this thread before:
1. Whatever player has the play or the draw is not determined by random chance
2. The player on the draw has an additional start of game benefit (say one free mulligan before going down to 6 cards)
Each player would start with 1 fewer card. Starting hand size would be 6 rather than 7
This solves the issue because you can win the attrition game before you lose the damage game when there's fewer cards to trade
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Each format should have different rules to govern. Just like sets have different ban lists. Any of these will help.
1 (medium effect)Modern should first allow the player on the draw to take a free mull if he or she so decides.
2. (Smallest effect)Player on the draw should be allowed a free scry. This allows the responding player to have a little better starting position rather than just a straight uphill battle.
3 (largest effect)player on the draw can search their library for a basic land at the start of the game and put it into play. And then skips the first draw. This changes the equation from 10 Mana to 6 to 10 Mana to 9. 2+3+4.
Any of these would help the environment greatly.
Uh what? Explain what you mean, because this (as written) just sounds like blatant cheating :S.
How do you even "practice" rolling dice? Wtf?
If you're genuinely suggesting that people try to manipulate the die roll to hit a certain number or range then I'm afraid I just lost all respect for you.
Even just playing a land from your hand. I like Basics matter though. Instants go up in value but at least it allows a degree of interaction T1. Or the potential for interaction at least. Control would benefit more than aggro but not sure this is exactly a bad thing.
As has been pointed out, in tournaments, the advantage of going first actually evens out over multiple rounds.
On a game by game basis, the person who plays first has an advantage. Obviously. And, that's not a bug, it's a feature. Most games and sports are like this and it doesn't make them any more or less 'fair'.
One of the great things about Magic is that it's so flexible that you can actually adjust your play style (within the confines of your opening 8) based on play order. Or to put it in more concrete terms, if play order really were a huge issue, I think we'd be seeing more decks with Simian Spirit Guides and Gemstone Caverns for turn 0 shenanigans.
Another great thing about this game, and something I've loved since I started playing 24 years ago, is that it's as much as about skill as it is about luck. The comparison with Chess is apt, but so is the comparison with Poker. You have to do the best you can with the hand you draw.
If you take away the element of chance that the roll of the dice is a part of (and the choice of play/draw), you fundamentally change this game, in my opinion, for the worse because you remove some of that chance element.
A) I must race you, which is vastly more fair a race now.
B) I need to use my Mana advantage to keep your spells in check.
C) I'm still going first and you are about to get iok, and seized out so it doesn't really matter anyways.
Now storm was also mentioned. Well that is a hit or miss thing. I can still board in hate ,probably did unless game 1. I can still iok or seize your fast fast kill out if your hand. Still use counters to prevent you from going off. How is storm killing on turn 2 on the draw different than them killing turn 3 on the play again anyways?
It wouldn't be on the play or draw for modern. It would be on the play or the basic. Some players would choose to be in the basic rather than on the draw because of the advantage it gives them.... How many players choose to be in the draw right now? Case and point.
Perhaps more will appear in its footsteps, perhaps not.
I doubt sisicat will be responding since he got banned.
But yeah. Cheating when not in just for fun matches is definitely something I'd never do or suggest.
Oh really? Can't say i'm surprised haha, but having looked at his profile page I can't see any indication of this. How does one tell if another user is banned without resorting to rumour?
Merfolk; is it me or is merfolk the most reliant deck in terms of being on the play? I can't think of another deck that relies so heavily on such a tiny margin of time in order to win. Games are often won just a sliver ahead of an opponent being able to win. Tricky! It'd be interesting to draw up some kind of analysis of the decks most affected by play advantage, with the biggest win/loss swing when forced to draw.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Decks that benefit most from taking the play:
Gx Tron (needs to assemble tron pieces, can only do so one turn at a time)
Merfolk (needs to assemble a team of fish)
Valakut (pure race)
Decks that don't care as much:
Grixis Shadow (you are disrupting them more than you are racing the opponent)
UWx control
8-Rack (wants to have more card advantage than the opponent. taking the draw facilitates this)
That's just a preliminary guess on my part. What is comes down to is - if you are just looking you race you want to play first. If you are looking to grind out and constantly trade resources, it's not as necessary to play first and sometimes you want to draw first. Most modern decks fall under the first category and hence want to play first. Recently there have been decks appearing that operate on the second axis (8 rack most notably)
How exactly?
Are you saying one player starts with 6 instead of 7? Or both players start with 6 instead of 7?
Why does this change benefit either player?
I still think the best way to fix the play/draw win percentage is what has been discussed in this thread before:
1. Whatever player has the play or the draw is not determined by random chance
2. The player on the draw has an additional start of game benefit (say one free mulligan before going down to 6 cards)
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Each player would start with 1 fewer card. Starting hand size would be 6 rather than 7
This solves the issue because you can win the attrition game before you lose the damage game when there's fewer cards to trade