I agree with you about what your naming with Nevermore, I always name cards that deal with enchantments or are a critical win con. I purposefully played with non enchantment win cons so I wouldn't get my wincon killed by stuff they are boarding in against me. That plus Gideon Jura and Elspeth, Sun's Champions are beasts at locking down board control. I tested out an Urza's Factory at a 5 round event at my lgs over my 2nd Tectonic Edge and it was awesome. I won three games with it and it put a lot of pressure on people with a ton of counterspells which would otherwise be an annoying matchup. I wasn't able to get a Greater Auramancy for my sideboard but I'm not sure if I want it. A lot of people were using cards like Engineered Explosives or Fracturing Gusts and Greater Auramancy doesn't really deal with those. I don't mind if my opponent uses one for one removal on them because typically my spells they are killing are cheaper and more high impact.
I agree with you about what your naming with Nevermore, I always name cards that deal with enchantments or are a critical win con. I purposefully played with non enchantment win cons so I wouldn't get my wincon killed by stuff they are boarding in against me. That plus Gideon Jura and Elspeth, Sun's Champions are beasts at locking down board control. I tested out an Urza's Factory at a 5 round event at my lgs over my 2nd Tectonic Edge and it was awesome. I won three games with it and it put a lot of pressure on people with a ton of counterspells which would otherwise be an annoying matchup. I wasn't able to get a Greater Auramancy for my sideboard but I'm not sure if I want it. A lot of people were using cards like Engineered Explosives or Fracturing Gusts and Greater Auramancy doesn't really deal with those. I don't mind if my opponent uses one for one removal on them because typically my spells they are killing are cheaper and more high impact.
Engineered is a bit tougher to beat but if you know your opponent is running Fracturing Gust, you can always name it with Nevermore if that's a concern. The main reason I don't play Gideon nor Elspeth, is because I put the deck together with the cards I already had. I've actually been liking dropping Sigil of the Empty throne for a bit lower curve which also makes me not have worry about keeping enchantments in my hand for fuel to the Sigil in order to produce angels. Wrath of God is surprisingly good against Abzan and is something I wouldn't want to cut atm.
The Scapeshift matchup is pretty bad. Any ideas how to improve it?
What was giving you problems with Scapeshift? The reason I ask is every time I play against them I just demolish them 2-0 because of maindeck Leyline of Sanctity, Runed Halo, and Nevermore. Games 2 and 3 cut the sphere's and ghostly prison's and bring in more wincons and whatever enchantment hate you feel like it. I like bringing in Wurmcoil Engine and Batterskull against them to gain life because you can get to the point where your life total is too high for them to combo you out. I usually bring in Eidolon of Rhetoric and Rest in Peace to turn off Snapcaster Mage as well. Suprression Field can slow them down, but I don't think it's worth it.
I understand what you mean on running it with cards you have, but Gideon Jura and Elspeth, Sun's Champion I wanna stress how much more consistent my deck became when I made the change from Luminarch and Sigil too walkers. They've been awesome. I also highly recommend Urza's Factory. In the Scapeshift matchup it may be hard to resolve a threat and the Factory will let you just make a 2/2 every turn once they are locked out until they die.
Because of cards like Repeal, Cryptic Command, Noxious Revival, Gifts Ungiven and Snapcaster Mage they are able to get rid of my enchantments and combo off. It is also very dependent on what type of version they are playing, because if they aren't playing the blue version, Leyline and Halo are instant scoops. Rest in Peace seems quite decent against them however and I think a couple will help post board
I have never played or seen a Scapeshift list with Gifts Ungiven in it, but I can see why that would be an issue if they did play it. They'd be able to tutor up there outs and stop you. When I play against them to be a little more specific I just jam Runed Halo's and Leylines and use them to disrupt there combo while naming there outs with Nevermore as long as I have one of the other cards stopping there combo. Tectonic Edge and Ghost Quarter are good for clearing out early Valakut's that get put down. Eidolon of Rhetoric is strong in this matchup blocking there Snapcaster Mages from attacking and flashing stuff back while also giving us a slow, but not inconsequential clock.
Because of cards like Repeal, Cryptic Command, Noxious Revival, Gifts Ungiven and Snapcaster Mage they are able to get rid of my enchantments and combo off. It is also very dependent on what type of version they are playing, because if they aren't playing the blue version, Leyline and Halo are instant scoops. Rest in Peace seems quite decent against them however and I think a couple will help post board
I have never played or seen a Scapeshift list with Gifts Ungiven in it, but I can see why that would be an issue if they did play it. They'd be able to tutor up there outs and stop you. When I play against them to be a little more specific I just jam Runed Halo's and Leylines and use them to disrupt there combo while naming there outs with Nevermore as long as I have one of the other cards stopping there combo. Tectonic Edge and Ghost Quarter are good for clearing out early Valakut's that get put down. Eidolon of Rhetoric is strong in this matchup blocking there Snapcaster Mages from attacking and flashing stuff back while also giving us a slow, but not inconsequential clock.
Just checking, but we are aware that Gifts Ungiven cannot be cast when we have a Leyline in play?
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I wanted some more disruption against Infect, so I added 2x Sunlance because it doesn't only hit Infect but all sorts of other decks and the matchup against white decks like Soul Sisters and Death and Taxes are already very good so it isn't needed in those matches. Celestial Purge is for the most part against Liliana of the Veil but is also very good against a number of other decks.
Thoughts
(a) Leyline of sanctity is a four of for my money in the current meta. We have to beat BG-x and Leyline goes a long way towards that. Never mind the odd free win vs scapeshift or ad nauseam, and the knackering of Gifts and Lilly ultimate, in the current paper meta of "good stuff" decks it is a four of.
(b) I personally often dislike both Nevermore and O-ring, but if you are going to run the former then Gitaxian Probe really works well and would really make the card work at its best, where it can be backbreaking for an opponent on the right deck, esp those relying on Cryptics to go off. I can't think of an argument for O-ring or D sphere effects in the current metas that seem full of removal for our removal, yielding threats like Tasigur or twin combos that win the game quicker than we do. Even if you do run Oring then a split with Banishing Light, which is almost the same but it cannot target your stuff, is better. Echoing truth and Maelstrom Pulse are two cards that hurt pillow decks more than most.
(c)If you really want to blowout infect then Celestial Flare from the board sorts out single attackers beautifully, often getting 2-1s, and prevents Vines of Vastwood blowouts. Fog effects work too, and one of the charms has a fog effect, although the other modes (counter spell that targets you and regenerate a dude) are less relevant. White also has a couple of 1cc fog effects. Boarding in Ethersworn Canonist is really good, preventing them winning t2/3 by multiple pumps, the Eidolon equivalent is a little slower and leaves a bit more vulnerability. If you buy time vs Infect it loses.
(d) Greater Auramancy is superb, and often stops the Cyrptic Command on Halo or Leyline blowout that sometimes happens. I would be happy to maindeck it x 1-2.
(e) Peace of Mind is worth considering in the board as you are not running Supression Field. It probably is not right for your build, but you never know.
(f) A single Ensnaring Bridge might be a better shout too, the more singletons run the better the match against grindy good stuff BG decks which run Pulse in the 75.
(g) Have you considered White/U as you are running Temples? That gives access to Monastery Siege, Celestial Colonnade and Supreme Verdict, Siege solving a lot of the decks issues with drawing binary cards. IMHO it is the best form of the deck.
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What about playing a card like Martyr of Sands in a mono white shell?
The Martyr in mono white has a thread- Martyr Proc, run by DemanictheOrc, dealing with White Martyr and black splashes. Martyr (not SS) is a prison deck itself- running multiple Wraths, Ghostlies, Paths, Mistveil, Emeria, and sometimes Halos/Leylines and recurring one drops, including fog Kami. Without running Proc/Ascendant there is little point in running Martyr as late game it becomes a dead drop. Martyr is built to make sure this is not the case with Procs allowing you to sit back and develop the board whilst the hand build up in size. I know Conley Woods suggested Martyr in Enduring Ideal, but really it does not work as well as not running the Martyr, at least with mere mortals playing it. Martyr is probably the best Prison deck in that it top 8'd a grand prix relatively recently, has two to three viable splash versions, and its worse matchup- tron- can be won sometimes by just comboing into big Serra Ascendants. Most people dislike the style of deck but it is a fantastic deck that gets great online and paper results.
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With Elves making a come back I wouldn't play without Wrath of God.
You don't need that many Leyline of Sanctity since the decks that can't win with it on the board have answers for it. So 2 main and 1 side has been fine for me.
Playing less than 4 Nevermore is wrong because it can stop them from using the cards we fear like Cryptic, Abrupt Decay, and Maelstrom Pulse. Also doubles as a lock against combo decks. The only way we beat tron is to start naming threats in there hand and prey they don't draw out of it while slowing them down with ld.
I like the idea of bridge, but I would rather keep with white cards for devotion purposes. It let's us do degenerate stuff with nykthos like turn 4 Elspeth and etc.
I don't really wanna run card disadvantage like Peace of Mind since we're trying to lock them out. There have to be better options if we wanted something like that. Blind Obedience or just maindeck Wurmcoil's come to mind.
I never have a problem with infect with my build, but yeah Celestial Flare is hilarious for that or boggles.
That would be pretty sweet if you were splashing blue to have counters. Although the fact that Abrupt Decay is uncounterable kind of mitigates the viability of counters imo since that's the most common hate. I'd probably just play a normal 3 mana counterspell if I was too do that like Dissolve or Mana Leak. I also sideboard my Rule of Law effects and prefer Eidolon of Rhetoric because then it can stop Snapcaster Mage and block too. Since it's in the sideboard I don't worry about removal for it as much because lots of it goes out.
With Elves making a come back I wouldn't play without Wrath of God.
You don't need that many Leyline of Sanctity since the decks that can't win with it on the board have answers for it. So 2 main and 1 side has been fine for me.
Playing less than 4 Nevermore is wrong because it can stop them from using the cards we fear like Cryptic, Abrupt Decay, and Maelstrom Pulse. Also doubles as a lock against combo decks. The only way we beat tron is to start naming threats in there hand and prey they don't draw out of it while slowing them down with ld.
I like the idea of bridge, but I would rather keep with white cards for devotion purposes. It let's us do degenerate stuff with nykthos like turn 4 Elspeth and etc.
I don't really wanna run card disadvantage like Peace of Mind since we're trying to lock them out. There have to be better options if we wanted something like that. Blind Obedience or just maindeck Wurmcoil's come to mind.
I never have a problem with infect with my build, but yeah Celestial Flare is hilarious for that or boggles.
I was thinking Leyline in terms of Nykthos too. I use 2 in RW prison decks, analagous to Pillow Fort in that they are Nykthos-less, and it seems right there. In Enduring Ideal I use 4 as it is Nythos based. It is also meta dependent of course. I have yet to see elves in its glory, for example.
Infect seems to have annoyingly added Spellskite to main deck. Incidentally, I notice some infect players often waste their probes on non relevant turns. I have seen a lot of draw probe and play without thinking.
You might be right on Nevermore- in that the less you have the less good each copy becomes, so its a 4 of or 0 of. I use Greater Auramancies in Enduring ideal in a similar way- providing protection for lock pieces. I Still I think probe would work well with Nevermore, and would recommend Temples in every lockdown deck. Sadly regarding tron specifically, if they land o stone with mana untapped t4/5 its probably curtains, I think we have to accept that unless you run mana disruption tron is just a harder end match as without decklist access they can get out of stuff wiith All is Dust, Ugin, Karn and O stone, meaning you have to name in the right order and hope. Plus their mana ignores Ghostly taxes. A deck I think we all wish we could lose from Modern I am sure.
I like wraths, 2/1 split in the Ageless list seems fine to me.
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My last pptq I had a double Leyline and drew a Leyline. All three were dead and in the bin by turn 6, thanks I recall to maindeck I recall Golgari Charm, x 2 Snapcaster mage x 1, and I would love to have drawn another as Lilly ticked upwards! I played two BUGs and two Junk lists in 6 rounds, and every permanent had a limited lifespan, prisons only got assembled when Leyline stopped their discard and allowed me to build whilst they had the wrong removal in hand, or by combination with Greater Auramancy. I know what you mean, though- two Leylines don't do any more than one, for sure. That list ran Temples and other manipulation to help stop the wrong answers being in my hand, and that is one of the reasons why Monastery Siege is absolutely made for UW lockdown, and why Temples actually are decent in Modern lockdown decks, especially those with big combos. For the record I would not put Leyline in for Nykthos unless my deck was built to abuse Nykthos and I could get value out of later Leylines. Looking at your list the Nykthos element is not so important, really for Heliod and a bit of slight mid game accel t4/5, and later Leylines only contribute to Spheres of Safety. Looking at Ageless's list its broadly similar- he gets extort triggers and myth realised triggers but it is still not enough. If Wrath effects like Marshall Coup were used more it might be a different story, white has little to abuse with Nykthos mana with, which is probably why so many Nykthos-reliant decks are green whilst we just use it sparingly.......
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Don't get me wrong Nykthos is sweet. Let's us play around Mana Leak and have a million mana to do whatever we want in the late game. Sometimes it lets you play bombs real early. For me I slam a walker and for you guys I guess you pump your myth a bit. I think that you guys should consider swapping your win cons for plainswalkers like I did. I don't care if they blow up my Enchantments because if you land a walker early enough it's probably gg. I also agree that if you want to make junk a better matchup more Leylines is one way of doing it. I realize that Liliana of the Veil is a common card and can be hard to beat when it comes down early. But with 4 Runed Halo's and Walkers I usually can stop it in some way. The only bad thing is if it comes down early and gets to 6 before I can stop it. In that scenario well you're ****ed and that happens. It's hard to come back from that. I board in rest in peace and eidolon of rhetoric for snapcaster decks. Also I bring in my Batterskull and Wurmcoil Engine against the Junk and Bug decks to have more threats. Jamming a Wurmcoil Engine is usually gg in games 2 and 3 or they 5 for one themselves on it while you gain life and buy time.
Wurmcoil is certainly attractive to me because it has lots of applications in grindy metas. I have considered Devout Lightcaster and Mirran Crusader to be boardable vs Jund/Bug, although the former is only really good if you can blink it.
As it happens in my version I use a different approach over myth realized, which I am not convinced on- a stax approach in this case, in Wg, using the pillow-fort enchantments [leylines, ghostlies, spheres, a blind obedience including sup field etc), a couple of artifacts a(bridge,matrix) and Magus of the Tabernacle and World Queller for additional taxing. I also use a Heliod because I run Nythos, which also helps allowing me to abuse the landkill aspect on queller and generate obscene mana. Viridian emissary and Flagstones work well with Queller. That deck sort of plays grindy decks at their own game- destroying land. It also gets use out of primal command, which is flexible. I want to try a garruk in that deck, although PWs don't play with Field or Queller sometimes.
UW I stick with enduring ideal wins on top of the prison - my solitary win cons being the Form of the dragon enchantment, decking, 2 celestial colonnades, dovescape tokens, Heliod and a post board confiscate. That deck really does need 4 Leylines as the two powerful wincons are limited dependent on other cards!
RW I use a critterless approach with Ajani, burn and Assemble the Legions, bringing in Mirran crusaders for Junk. Obviously the last two decks are not for this thread, although taking out 4 ideal, 1 dovescape 1 form leaves me with old fashioned Pillow fort.
I think I prefer to avoid Myth realized in all of them at the moment.
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If you get a chance could you post a deck list for your favorite versions? The only splash I would make would be Red for Blood Moon, but I don't think it helps improve the matchups we expect to be playing against. It does help a ton against Tron and Bloom Titan though which could make it worth it. I like the idea of what you're doing though so please show me the WG list for sure. I'd also like to see what you would run for mono colored. I just don't splash unless it's absolutely necessary.
This is for two reasons.
Reason 1: Consistency and Pain Free
Reason 2: Not dropping a car payment on lands
Sure.
I agree on red only offering moon to pillow-fort, within the context that although red offers a lot more good stuff, in taking it up we end up less pillow-fort and more just removal based deck with permanents that resemble a skeleton pillow-fort. Outpost siege is really good, but mainly red offers acceleration and removal, making the deck very different.
Wg I am working on but it is progressing. The list is quite odd looking but has lots of synergies, after this weekend I will post- I have a lot of events this weekend.
I avoided fetches in Wg and Enduring Ideal prison- not through cost considerations- I own several sets of fetches- but because temples actually work well in our deck types, scry being really good, and often you don't want to fetch as you end up putting the scryed stuff back in. It is quite nice to start on 20 life and not 15 like the aggro decks. I notice in decks like instant reanimator they use temple of malice, in ad nauseam the esper temples get play, and I know everyone uses the temples in RW. The number of times CIP tapped is relevant is non-zero, of course, but the decks normally have plays they can make that are relevant despite the CIP.
I do like mono w though, I can post primitive sketches of my ideas on it.
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Sure the temples are fine, but there are only 4 of them. To hit a splash for sure I'd want at least 8 sources. Sure you normally have plays, but sometimes you just need that 4th mana for a wrath or you need to do 2 things in one turn. Then you lose. Scry is pretty strong though. I just would rather not have it unless I splash
Red could also offer Impact Tremors and Assemble the Legion. Even if they have Virulent Plague or similar out, the ETB effect from those tokens getting generated would still trigger. Outpost Siege set to Dragons would get them on the way out too.
Sure the temples are fine, but there are only 4 of them. To hit a splash for sure I'd want at least 8 sources. Sure you normally have plays, but sometimes you just need that 4th mana for a wrath or you need to do 2 things in one turn. Then you lose. Scry is pretty strong though. I just would rather not have it unless I splash
Yes, if its a real splash I think 8 is a min, probably more. Temples are better in SSG red builds, for the reasons you mention.
If it is a spellskite splash, where the presence of a color is not required to make the skite work, then often a single shock is enough with a few fetches, but then it is not a splash per se. I played RW today, and the presence of the 3rd splash actually hurt me a fair bit. I will report that in the RW lockdown forum.
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Red could also offer Impact Tremors and Assemble the Legion. Even if they have Virulent Plague or similar out, the ETB effect from those tokens getting generated would still trigger. Outpost Siege set to Dragons would get them on the way out too.
ATL wins on its own, period. It is a planeswalker-esque wincon. Only a Twin deck with Twin down and active but no way to attack can hold off ATL being down for any length of time. Siege is great indeed because at a push it can do damage when the enemy is on stuff like tokens and we play wrath effects, as you suggest. Impact Tremors is not good sadly because it is win more personified- we have enough binary cards as it is- without lots of generators of dudes it does nothing- and if you are generating via ATL then we are winning. Now in RW Norrin Martyr you have a great wincon.
Don't really expect to see too many Virulent P's about, to be honest.
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Illness in the Ranks and Night of Souls Betrayal both see play already, not sure why Virulent Plague would be such a stretch. The point is that any of those 3 would invalidate ATL as a win con w/o something like Impact Tremors.
IMO Elspeth, Sun's Champion is just straight better than Assemble the Legion. Comes down and spits out dudes to chump whatever one dude they are beating down with. Then eventually it turns your army into Respectable 3/3 Flyers that will probably one shot them. If they have something out to make tokens suck you can probably just defend elspeth until she can get an emblem then make dudes to attack with after. Assemble the Legion at it's worst when it dies right away gives you nothing. Atleast Elspeth and Gideon can do something before they bight the dust like killing a guy or making blockers or wiping the board. Gideon also is a soft lock against many decks that win by attacking by preventing lethal with his +2 as long as they don't Maelstrom Pulse it or bounce it.
Illness in the Ranks and Night of Souls Betrayal both see play already, not sure why Virulent Plague would be such a stretch. The point is that any of those 3 would invalidate ATL as a win con w/o something like Impact Tremors.
Plague is indeed no more of a stretch than illness, I am sorry I did not mean to suggest it was, but both are incredibly rare. The only maindeckable card mentioned is NOsB, and even then it is very, very fringe.
If you play 1000 games of magic where you have the mana to cast ATL, it will be invalidated by NoSB et al a tiny percentage of the time compared to Cryptic, Spell Pierce etc. Even O ring and D sphere are becoming rather unusual. The game at the moment is all about blue counters and bounce in Twin, Grixis delver and Scapeshift, and BG-x shells with their discard and abrupt decays backed up by odd golgari charms/pulses. ATL fortunately avoids Decay, but it cops for it from the rest. You still see tron, affinity etc, and ubiquitous burn and infect decks, of course, and will slightly less often meet the plethora of more unusual linear decks out there, but very few run NosB effects. Generally in RW any deck that runs NosB style effects is going to be wasting a slot running it to invalidate what is normally a solitary enchantment or two. But for every -x--x permanent effect you see that stops ATL you will see a hundred spells that deal with it in other ways. Every card bar none has a card that beats it, the fact that one exists that locks out ATL is not an issue, in that any deck should not rely on just one card to win. I would point out that Outpost Siege has an effect when choosing the non exile mode that would mean dead tokens making fo dead oppponents, and that card is excellent in RW as the exile mode is brilliant, running at 2-3 copies as it does in Skred. The converse is Tremors is completely invalidated when you have no creatures to pump out, which is what happens in over fifty percent of matches with RW lockdown decks, because RW lockdown decks run almost few to no "proper" creatures (I run the primer and the archived primer on the subject, so I have had to collate and copy a fair few lists over the past 3 years, they are generally low creature affairs, winning by burn as often as anything). We are sort of on the wrong thread for ATL anyway, but check out the primer on RW lockdown (the bridge decks are the more common) and see what people have run.
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IMO Elspeth, Sun's Champion is just straight better than Assemble the Legion. Comes down and spits out dudes to chump whatever one dude they are beating down with. Then eventually it turns your army into Respectable 3/3 Flyers that will probably one shot them. If they have something out to make tokens suck you can probably just defend elspeth until she can get an emblem then make dudes to attack with after. Assemble the Legion at it's worst when it dies right away gives you nothing. Atleast Elspeth and Gideon can do something before they bight the dust like killing a guy or making blockers or wiping the board. Gideon also is a soft lock against many decks that win by attacking by preventing lethal with his +2 as long as they don't Maelstrom Pulse it or bounce it.
Apples and Oranges really here in the comparison- ATL is a different CC and dies to Pulse, Golgari Charm, pridemage, O ring effects, counters, bounce. Elspeth dies to burn, counters, bounce, pulse, o ring effects and sadly creature beats, whilst doing two potential jobs. I would not really compare them as they fill different gaps, like trying to compare bolt and thoughtseize. Elspeth for my money may cost one too much as a PW and I would probably rather Gideon over her, which as you say is a soft lock, although in RW decks they tend to use Bridge (because it lends itself to hellbent) which makes Gideon not as good offensively. I don't think you can afford more than one ATL, although some people do play two- win con only cards must be kept to a minimum in favour of flexability. Elspeth can take a Wrath slot and give some much needed flexibility. Anyway I will leave the ATL discussion there as it is a bit off topic, in that I am referring to it mainly from RW lockdown/prison perspectives and experience, and you may be thinking of it as a minor splash in otherwise mono w, which would be a different deck. I will get back to you when I have something to report on mono w or Wg or Uw.
I also like the idea of having Greater Auramancy in the board for the bg based decks with infinite permanent destruction.
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
What was giving you problems with Scapeshift? The reason I ask is every time I play against them I just demolish them 2-0 because of maindeck Leyline of Sanctity, Runed Halo, and Nevermore. Games 2 and 3 cut the sphere's and ghostly prison's and bring in more wincons and whatever enchantment hate you feel like it. I like bringing in Wurmcoil Engine and Batterskull against them to gain life because you can get to the point where your life total is too high for them to combo you out. I usually bring in Eidolon of Rhetoric and Rest in Peace to turn off Snapcaster Mage as well. Suprression Field can slow them down, but I don't think it's worth it.
I understand what you mean on running it with cards you have, but Gideon Jura and Elspeth, Sun's Champion I wanna stress how much more consistent my deck became when I made the change from Luminarch and Sigil too walkers. They've been awesome. I also highly recommend Urza's Factory. In the Scapeshift matchup it may be hard to resolve a threat and the Factory will let you just make a 2/2 every turn once they are locked out until they die.
tldr:
-3 sphere
-4 ghostly prison
+1 leyline
+1 Linvala
+1 Batterskull
+1 Wurmcoil Engine
+1 Eidolon
+2 Rest in Peace
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
I have never played or seen a Scapeshift list with Gifts Ungiven in it, but I can see why that would be an issue if they did play it. They'd be able to tutor up there outs and stop you. When I play against them to be a little more specific I just jam Runed Halo's and Leylines and use them to disrupt there combo while naming there outs with Nevermore as long as I have one of the other cards stopping there combo. Tectonic Edge and Ghost Quarter are good for clearing out early Valakut's that get put down. Eidolon of Rhetoric is strong in this matchup blocking there Snapcaster Mages from attacking and flashing stuff back while also giving us a slow, but not inconsequential clock.
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
Just checking, but we are aware that Gifts Ungiven cannot be cast when we have a Leyline in play?
Thoughts
(a) Leyline of sanctity is a four of for my money in the current meta. We have to beat BG-x and Leyline goes a long way towards that. Never mind the odd free win vs scapeshift or ad nauseam, and the knackering of Gifts and Lilly ultimate, in the current paper meta of "good stuff" decks it is a four of.
(b) I personally often dislike both Nevermore and O-ring, but if you are going to run the former then Gitaxian Probe really works well and would really make the card work at its best, where it can be backbreaking for an opponent on the right deck, esp those relying on Cryptics to go off. I can't think of an argument for O-ring or D sphere effects in the current metas that seem full of removal for our removal, yielding threats like Tasigur or twin combos that win the game quicker than we do. Even if you do run Oring then a split with Banishing Light, which is almost the same but it cannot target your stuff, is better. Echoing truth and Maelstrom Pulse are two cards that hurt pillow decks more than most.
(c)If you really want to blowout infect then Celestial Flare from the board sorts out single attackers beautifully, often getting 2-1s, and prevents Vines of Vastwood blowouts. Fog effects work too, and one of the charms has a fog effect, although the other modes (counter spell that targets you and regenerate a dude) are less relevant. White also has a couple of 1cc fog effects. Boarding in Ethersworn Canonist is really good, preventing them winning t2/3 by multiple pumps, the Eidolon equivalent is a little slower and leaves a bit more vulnerability. If you buy time vs Infect it loses.
(d) Greater Auramancy is superb, and often stops the Cyrptic Command on Halo or Leyline blowout that sometimes happens. I would be happy to maindeck it x 1-2.
(e) Peace of Mind is worth considering in the board as you are not running Supression Field. It probably is not right for your build, but you never know.
(f) A single Ensnaring Bridge might be a better shout too, the more singletons run the better the match against grindy good stuff BG decks which run Pulse in the 75.
(g) Have you considered White/U as you are running Temples? That gives access to Monastery Siege, Celestial Colonnade and Supreme Verdict, Siege solving a lot of the decks issues with drawing binary cards. IMHO it is the best form of the deck.
The Martyr in mono white has a thread- Martyr Proc, run by DemanictheOrc, dealing with White Martyr and black splashes. Martyr (not SS) is a prison deck itself- running multiple Wraths, Ghostlies, Paths, Mistveil, Emeria, and sometimes Halos/Leylines and recurring one drops, including fog Kami. Without running Proc/Ascendant there is little point in running Martyr as late game it becomes a dead drop. Martyr is built to make sure this is not the case with Procs allowing you to sit back and develop the board whilst the hand build up in size. I know Conley Woods suggested Martyr in Enduring Ideal, but really it does not work as well as not running the Martyr, at least with mere mortals playing it. Martyr is probably the best Prison deck in that it top 8'd a grand prix relatively recently, has two to three viable splash versions, and its worse matchup- tron- can be won sometimes by just comboing into big Serra Ascendants. Most people dislike the style of deck but it is a fantastic deck that gets great online and paper results.
You don't need that many Leyline of Sanctity since the decks that can't win with it on the board have answers for it. So 2 main and 1 side has been fine for me.
Playing less than 4 Nevermore is wrong because it can stop them from using the cards we fear like Cryptic, Abrupt Decay, and Maelstrom Pulse. Also doubles as a lock against combo decks. The only way we beat tron is to start naming threats in there hand and prey they don't draw out of it while slowing them down with ld.
I like the idea of bridge, but I would rather keep with white cards for devotion purposes. It let's us do degenerate stuff with nykthos like turn 4 Elspeth and etc.
I don't really wanna run card disadvantage like Peace of Mind since we're trying to lock them out. There have to be better options if we wanted something like that. Blind Obedience or just maindeck Wurmcoil's come to mind.
I never have a problem with infect with my build, but yeah Celestial Flare is hilarious for that or boggles.
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
I was thinking Leyline in terms of Nykthos too. I use 2 in RW prison decks, analagous to Pillow Fort in that they are Nykthos-less, and it seems right there. In Enduring Ideal I use 4 as it is Nythos based. It is also meta dependent of course. I have yet to see elves in its glory, for example.
Infect seems to have annoyingly added Spellskite to main deck. Incidentally, I notice some infect players often waste their probes on non relevant turns. I have seen a lot of draw probe and play without thinking.
You might be right on Nevermore- in that the less you have the less good each copy becomes, so its a 4 of or 0 of. I use Greater Auramancies in Enduring ideal in a similar way- providing protection for lock pieces. I Still I think probe would work well with Nevermore, and would recommend Temples in every lockdown deck. Sadly regarding tron specifically, if they land o stone with mana untapped t4/5 its probably curtains, I think we have to accept that unless you run mana disruption tron is just a harder end match as without decklist access they can get out of stuff wiith All is Dust, Ugin, Karn and O stone, meaning you have to name in the right order and hope. Plus their mana ignores Ghostly taxes. A deck I think we all wish we could lose from Modern I am sure.
I like wraths, 2/1 split in the Ageless list seems fine to me.
If you are going to use counters from blue why not play UW control, which is like pillow-fort with less pillows, as it were?
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
As it happens in my version I use a different approach over myth realized, which I am not convinced on- a stax approach in this case, in Wg, using the pillow-fort enchantments [leylines, ghostlies, spheres, a blind obedience including sup field etc), a couple of artifacts a(bridge,matrix) and Magus of the Tabernacle and World Queller for additional taxing. I also use a Heliod because I run Nythos, which also helps allowing me to abuse the landkill aspect on queller and generate obscene mana. Viridian emissary and Flagstones work well with Queller. That deck sort of plays grindy decks at their own game- destroying land. It also gets use out of primal command, which is flexible. I want to try a garruk in that deck, although PWs don't play with Field or Queller sometimes.
UW I stick with enduring ideal wins on top of the prison - my solitary win cons being the Form of the dragon enchantment, decking, 2 celestial colonnades, dovescape tokens, Heliod and a post board confiscate. That deck really does need 4 Leylines as the two powerful wincons are limited dependent on other cards!
RW I use a critterless approach with Ajani, burn and Assemble the Legions, bringing in Mirran crusaders for Junk. Obviously the last two decks are not for this thread, although taking out 4 ideal, 1 dovescape 1 form leaves me with old fashioned Pillow fort.
I think I prefer to avoid Myth realized in all of them at the moment.
This is for two reasons.
Reason 1: Consistency and Pain Free
Reason 2: Not dropping a car payment on lands
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
Sure.
I agree on red only offering moon to pillow-fort, within the context that although red offers a lot more good stuff, in taking it up we end up less pillow-fort and more just removal based deck with permanents that resemble a skeleton pillow-fort. Outpost siege is really good, but mainly red offers acceleration and removal, making the deck very different.
Wg I am working on but it is progressing. The list is quite odd looking but has lots of synergies, after this weekend I will post- I have a lot of events this weekend.
I avoided fetches in Wg and Enduring Ideal prison- not through cost considerations- I own several sets of fetches- but because temples actually work well in our deck types, scry being really good, and often you don't want to fetch as you end up putting the scryed stuff back in. It is quite nice to start on 20 life and not 15 like the aggro decks. I notice in decks like instant reanimator they use temple of malice, in ad nauseam the esper temples get play, and I know everyone uses the temples in RW. The number of times CIP tapped is relevant is non-zero, of course, but the decks normally have plays they can make that are relevant despite the CIP.
I do like mono w though, I can post primitive sketches of my ideas on it.
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
Yes, if its a real splash I think 8 is a min, probably more. Temples are better in SSG red builds, for the reasons you mention.
If it is a spellskite splash, where the presence of a color is not required to make the skite work, then often a single shock is enough with a few fetches, but then it is not a splash per se. I played RW today, and the presence of the 3rd splash actually hurt me a fair bit. I will report that in the RW lockdown forum.
ATL wins on its own, period. It is a planeswalker-esque wincon. Only a Twin deck with Twin down and active but no way to attack can hold off ATL being down for any length of time. Siege is great indeed because at a push it can do damage when the enemy is on stuff like tokens and we play wrath effects, as you suggest. Impact Tremors is not good sadly because it is win more personified- we have enough binary cards as it is- without lots of generators of dudes it does nothing- and if you are generating via ATL then we are winning. Now in RW Norrin Martyr you have a great wincon.
Don't really expect to see too many Virulent P's about, to be honest.
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
Plague is indeed no more of a stretch than illness, I am sorry I did not mean to suggest it was, but both are incredibly rare. The only maindeckable card mentioned is NOsB, and even then it is very, very fringe.
If you play 1000 games of magic where you have the mana to cast ATL, it will be invalidated by NoSB et al a tiny percentage of the time compared to Cryptic, Spell Pierce etc. Even O ring and D sphere are becoming rather unusual. The game at the moment is all about blue counters and bounce in Twin, Grixis delver and Scapeshift, and BG-x shells with their discard and abrupt decays backed up by odd golgari charms/pulses. ATL fortunately avoids Decay, but it cops for it from the rest. You still see tron, affinity etc, and ubiquitous burn and infect decks, of course, and will slightly less often meet the plethora of more unusual linear decks out there, but very few run NosB effects. Generally in RW any deck that runs NosB style effects is going to be wasting a slot running it to invalidate what is normally a solitary enchantment or two. But for every -x--x permanent effect you see that stops ATL you will see a hundred spells that deal with it in other ways. Every card bar none has a card that beats it, the fact that one exists that locks out ATL is not an issue, in that any deck should not rely on just one card to win. I would point out that Outpost Siege has an effect when choosing the non exile mode that would mean dead tokens making fo dead oppponents, and that card is excellent in RW as the exile mode is brilliant, running at 2-3 copies as it does in Skred. The converse is Tremors is completely invalidated when you have no creatures to pump out, which is what happens in over fifty percent of matches with RW lockdown decks, because RW lockdown decks run almost few to no "proper" creatures (I run the primer and the archived primer on the subject, so I have had to collate and copy a fair few lists over the past 3 years, they are generally low creature affairs, winning by burn as often as anything). We are sort of on the wrong thread for ATL anyway, but check out the primer on RW lockdown (the bridge decks are the more common) and see what people have run.
Apples and Oranges really here in the comparison- ATL is a different CC and dies to Pulse, Golgari Charm, pridemage, O ring effects, counters, bounce. Elspeth dies to burn, counters, bounce, pulse, o ring effects and sadly creature beats, whilst doing two potential jobs. I would not really compare them as they fill different gaps, like trying to compare bolt and thoughtseize. Elspeth for my money may cost one too much as a PW and I would probably rather Gideon over her, which as you say is a soft lock, although in RW decks they tend to use Bridge (because it lends itself to hellbent) which makes Gideon not as good offensively. I don't think you can afford more than one ATL, although some people do play two- win con only cards must be kept to a minimum in favour of flexability. Elspeth can take a Wrath slot and give some much needed flexibility. Anyway I will leave the ATL discussion there as it is a bit off topic, in that I am referring to it mainly from RW lockdown/prison perspectives and experience, and you may be thinking of it as a minor splash in otherwise mono w, which would be a different deck. I will get back to you when I have something to report on mono w or Wg or Uw.