I used those as examples, but really, Hatchling wouldn't be playable in modern, and Shriekmaw has Evoke and evasion. Duplicant definitely does some work, but it's not the same. This is clearly seen by the fact that it only ever gets 1, maybe 2 slots in the deck. We just need more interactive cards because while our game plan is proactive, it's not like Storm where we can just ignore the opponent.
I don't really know how to explain it any better.
I was saying Duplicant is better for 2 reasons. First, it has no restrictions on it's removal like the non-black clause in each of your examples. And second, it is an artifact creature with CMC 6 and therefore fits perfectly into the deck's game plan.
Also, the reason only 1 or 2 get played in most lists is because of the shear number of tutors and various other draw spells. I play 1 mainboard with 5 tutors that can find him. That effectively gives me 6 copies of Duplicant, and the tutors can all be copied by Metamorphs making them each reusable. Serum Visions and Tezz can both dig when it's necessary. I almost never want Duplicant in my starting hand, but I never have trouble finding him if I need him.
I'm not disagreeing with any of that, but unfortunately, Duplicant can't beat Twin, doesn't do anything to wide decks like Zoo or Affinity, and is incredibly costly to recur if you need to kill multiple creatures (I mean, you could use your Metamorphs, but they're flex slots). It can also be easily circumvented by Pod players if they play their cards right. Duplicant is certainly not bad, and it's easily the best option given the available cards, but there's room for improvement.
I used those as examples, but really, Hatchling wouldn't be playable in modern, and Shriekmaw has Evoke and evasion. Duplicant definitely does some work, but it's not the same. This is clearly seen by the fact that it only ever gets 1, maybe 2 slots in the deck. We just need more interactive cards because while our game plan is proactive, it's not like Storm where we can just ignore the opponent.
I don't really know how to explain it any better.
I was saying Duplicant is better for 2 reasons. First, it has no restrictions on it's removal like the non-black clause in each of your examples. And second, it is an artifact creature with CMC 6 and therefore fits perfectly into the deck's game plan.
Also, the reason only 1 or 2 get played in most lists is because of the shear number of tutors and various other draw spells. I play 1 mainboard with 5 tutors that can find him. That effectively gives me 6 copies of Duplicant, and the tutors can all be copied by Metamorphs making them each reusable. Serum Visions and Tezz can both dig when it's necessary. I almost never want Duplicant in my starting hand, but I never have trouble finding him if I need him.
I'm not disagreeing with any of that, but unfortunately, Duplicant can't beat Twin, doesn't do anything to wide decks like Zoo or Affinity, and is incredibly costly to recur if you need to kill multiple creatures (I mean, you could use your Metamorphs, but they're flex slots). It can also be easily circumvented by Pod players if they play their cards right. Duplicant is certainly not bad, and it's easily the best option given the available cards, but there's room for improvement.
I understand we agree that Duplicant is currently the best card for its slot, but it has wider applications than you think.
You're right, Duplicant cannot beat twin and so gets sided out against it as well as against Storm, Scapeshift, and Control. However it is good against Zoo, Affinity, and other aggro decks. For Zoo, it's relevant to remove one of their larger creatures while also keeping pressure on them (it should be noted that it gains Goyf's p/t ability). Against affinity it can hit Etched Champions as well as other threats. Have you ever hit an Arcbound Ravager with a Spellskite in play? That's value. Sure, it doesn't hit Inkmoth Nexus, but that's what Shackles, Sphinxes, and sideboarded Dismembers are for.
Also, it has a high CMC but doesn't really take much effort to recur given that we are a deck focused on make artifacts cheaper and easier to play.
I used those as examples, but really, Hatchling wouldn't be playable in modern, and Shriekmaw has Evoke and evasion. Duplicant definitely does some work, but it's not the same. This is clearly seen by the fact that it only ever gets 1, maybe 2 slots in the deck. We just need more interactive cards because while our game plan is proactive, it's not like Storm where we can just ignore the opponent.
I don't really know how to explain it any better.
I was saying Duplicant is better for 2 reasons. First, it has no restrictions on it's removal like the non-black clause in each of your examples. And second, it is an artifact creature with CMC 6 and therefore fits perfectly into the deck's game plan.
Also, the reason only 1 or 2 get played in most lists is because of the shear number of tutors and various other draw spells. I play 1 mainboard with 5 tutors that can find him. That effectively gives me 6 copies of Duplicant, and the tutors can all be copied by Metamorphs making them each reusable. Serum Visions and Tezz can both dig when it's necessary. I almost never want Duplicant in my starting hand, but I never have trouble finding him if I need him.
I'm not disagreeing with any of that, but unfortunately, Duplicant can't beat Twin, doesn't do anything to wide decks like Zoo or Affinity, and is incredibly costly to recur if you need to kill multiple creatures (I mean, you could use your Metamorphs, but they're flex slots). It can also be easily circumvented by Pod players if they play their cards right. Duplicant is certainly not bad, and it's easily the best option given the available cards, but there's room for improvement.
I understand we agree that Duplicant is currently the best card for its slot, but it has wider applications than you think.
You're right, Duplicant cannot beat twin and so gets sided out against it as well as against Storm, Scapeshift, and Control. However it is good against Zoo, Affinity, and other aggro decks. For Zoo, it's relevant to remove one of their larger creatures while also keeping pressure on them (it should be noted that it gains Goyf's p/t ability). Against affinity it can hit Etched Champions as well as other threats. Have you ever hit an Arcbound Ravager with a Spellskite in play? That's value. Sure, it doesn't hit Inkmoth Nexus, but that's what Shackles, Sphinxes, and sideboarded Dismembers are for.
Also, it has a high CMC but doesn't really take much effort to recur given that we are a deck focused on make artifacts cheaper and easier to play.
That's true. I had always dismissed Master Transmuter as kind of gimmicky and trying too hard to only play really big creatures like Blightsteel Colossus that are too hard to cast without it, but I never really thought about the flash aspect. In this way I think it is a better Shimmer Myr which will make it worth testing.
On a side note, it might be worth it to play a 1-of Staff of Domination because it combos with Tezz and Architect. Something you wouldn't want to rely on, but could be backbreaking if it ever came up.
That's true. I had always dismissed Master Transmuter as kind of gimmicky and trying too hard to only play really big creatures like Blightsteel Colossus that are too hard to cast without it, but I never really thought about the flash aspect. In this way I think it is a better Shimmer Myr which will make it worth testing.
On a side note, it might be worth it to play a 1-of Staff of Domination because it combos with Tezz and Architect. Something you wouldn't want to rely on, but could be backbreaking if it ever came up.
Master Transmuter wants to abuse CITP effects and faties, which is not quite where this deck is at. She's a goodie, and I've wanted to make her work for ages, but it's a different style of deck. I mean, you could morph the deck into something more attuned to her with Myr Battlespheres/Thopter Assemblies as finishers, Faerie Mechanist/Solemn Simulacrum as value enablers, but I don't know that it's better given how much it hinges on her.
As for Staff, I could maybe see one in the board in really grindy matches. I'm personally not a fan given we're trying not to actually combo it off with infinite mana (which you could with Pili-Pala, but that's a whole other package). It warrants testing I suppose.
Also, regarding the instant speed Duplicant, if you have to rely on another card to make your card good, it's an argument against it, not for it. Having the potential to cast it instant speed is nice, but it shouldn't be relied upon.
Master Transmuter wants to abuse CITP effects and faties, which is not quite where this deck is at. She's a goodie, and I've wanted to make her work for ages, but it's a different style of deck. I mean, you could morph the deck into something more attuned to her with Myr Battlespheres/Thopter Assemblies as finishers, Faerie Mechanist/Solemn Simulacrum as value enablers, but I don't know that it's better given how much it hinges on her.
As for Staff, I could maybe see one in the board in really grindy matches. I'm personally not a fan given we're trying not to actually combo it off with infinite mana (which you could with Pili-Pala, but that's a whole other package). It warrants testing I suppose.
Also, regarding the instant speed Duplicant, if you have to rely on another card to make your card good, it's an argument against it, not for it. Having the potential to cast it instant speed is nice, but it shouldn't be relied upon.
All good points. I saw the Staff as a card that was also pretty good on it's own but can be ridiculous given the right circumstance, but I think you're right that it probably doesn't fit here.
You've been pretty active on this thread, but I haven't even seen a working list of yours. What have you been testing? What has been working/not working for you?
That's true. I had always dismissed Master Transmuter as kind of gimmicky and trying too hard to only play really big creatures like Blightsteel Colossus that are too hard to cast without it, but I never really thought about the flash aspect. In this way I think it is a better Shimmer Myr which will make it worth testing.
On a side note, it might be worth it to play a 1-of Staff of Domination because it combos with Tezz and Architect. Something you wouldn't want to rely on, but could be backbreaking if it ever came up.
Master Transmuter wants to abuse CITP effects and faties, which is not quite where this deck is at. She's a goodie, and I've wanted to make her work for ages, but it's a different style of deck. I mean, you could morph the deck into something more attuned to her with Myr Battlespheres/Thopter Assemblies as finishers, Faerie Mechanist/Solemn Simulacrum as value enablers, but I don't know that it's better given how much it hinges on her.
As for Staff, I could maybe see one in the board in really grindy matches. I'm personally not a fan given we're trying not to actually combo it off with infinite mana (which you could with Pili-Pala, but that's a whole other package). It warrants testing I suppose.
Also, regarding the instant speed Duplicant, if you have to rely on another card to make your card good, it's an argument against it, not for it. Having the potential to cast it instant speed is nice, but it shouldn't be relied upon.
I agree with you that it wants to abuse CITP abilities, but being able to put in threats like Wurmcoil Engine without having to worry about them being countered or as a surprise blocker or as a way to blank a Path to Exile. I look at her as Architects 5-8 / Cavern of Souls 5-8.
In regards to Staff of Domination, I love the card in Legacy and would be curious how it does in Modern. However I am not convinced that it will have as much of an impact. Though being able to tap down a Pestermite in response to it being enchanted seems nice, and the fact that you can turn any left over untaped creatures into life or cards is definitely an added benefit too.
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Hey lets try not to kill ourselves again shall we?
As of late, I've really liked Vendettas main, since they kill more things, and you frequently take equal or less damage from it. The only downsides are whiffing on Bob, and the extra Goyf toughness every so often.
I've only played a handful of games with Dakra Mystic, but I'm liking it better than Judge's Familiar so far. Short of boardwipes and Scapeshift, I don't care about very many spells my opponent might cast, and the extra card draw tucked into a a blue one-drop for convoke/Architect has been very nice. Most people usually just slow roll against Familiar anyway. The only major downside is losing my Inkmoth Nexus blocker.
Out of curiosity, in your Heartless version, have you considered Vedalken Archmage? He dies to everything under the sun, but if you save him for a big turn, you can essentially chain stuff off the top of your deck until you run out of mana.
How much mana are you normally casting thoughtcast for? I happen to own 3 already (as oppose to 0 serum visions)
I still kinda like judge's familiar.. for example I metamorph + architect chained and so it was a 4/4 flyier and that ends games fast. I guess that is similar in that I like platinium angel as it is a large flyier. I don't like giving my opponent too much time once I have executed my plan. When decks like pod and jund can gum up the ground (although junk clumps the air :S)
However I am definitely in the mood for more card draw another card to test!
How much mana are you normally casting thoughtcast for? I happen to own 3 already (as oppose to 0 serum visions)
I still kinda like judge's familiar.. for example I metamorph + architect chained and so it was a 4/4 flyier and that ends games fast. I guess that is similar in that I like platinium angel as it is a large flyier. I don't like giving my opponent too much time once I have executed my plan. When decks like pod and jund can gum up the ground (although junk clumps the air :S)
However I am definitely in the mood for more card draw another card to test!
Thoughtcast has been kind of iffy for me. I can usually get away with 3 mana, and sometimes two, but in the end I don't really know if ends up being better than Thirst for Knowledge. It might just be blind optimism.
Out of curiosity, in your Heartless version, have you considered Vedalken Archmage? He dies to everything under the sun, but if you save him for a big turn, you can essentially chain stuff off the top of your deck until you run out of mana.
Apparently I've completely missed that card in the past... My gut reaction is that it would slow down the deck by a turn which isn't the best, but I really want to chain Metamorphs and draw 5 cards... Also, it does mean that you get value out of every (artifact) spell you cast even if it doesn't resolve. I'll be considering this..
How much mana are you normally casting thoughtcast for? I happen to own 3 already (as oppose to 0 serum visions)
I still kinda like judge's familiar.. for example I metamorph + architect chained and so it was a 4/4 flyier and that ends games fast. I guess that is similar in that I like platinium angel as it is a large flyier. I don't like giving my opponent too much time once I have executed my plan. When decks like pod and jund can gum up the ground (although junk clumps the air :S)
However I am definitely in the mood for more card draw another card to test!
Thoughtcast has been kind of iffy for me. I can usually get away with 3 mana, and sometimes two, but in the end I don't really know if ends up being better than Thirst for Knowledge. It might just be blind optimism.
I play Serum Visions in my build because it can be played turn 1 and helps set up my important turns 2 and 3 and I have been very happy with it (although I would be happier if it were Ponder). Thoughtcast and Thirst cannot fill that role
Out of curiosity, in your Heartless version, have you considered Vedalken Archmage? He dies to everything under the sun, but if you save him for a big turn, you can essentially chain stuff off the top of your deck until you run out of mana.
Apparently I've completely missed that card in the past... My gut reaction is that it would slow down the deck by a turn which isn't the best, but I really want to chain Metamorphs and draw 5 cards... Also, it does mean that you get value out of every (artifact) spell you cast even if it doesn't resolve. I'll be considering this.
Note that if you chain Metamorphs copying the archmage, you draw:
1st Metamorph: 1 card
2nd Metamorph: 2 cards
3rd Metamorph: 3 cards
4th Metamorph: 4 cards
Total: 7 cards (probably with a win condition in the mix)
I think it could maybe be worth it in Tezzeret's slot or or something.
I brought this up in my post above, but it does more, and typically for less life. Most Zoo creatures only eat up 3 life, Snap/Clique/Mite only eat up 1 life, and Exarch is the same. It misses Bob, and Goyf deals an extra point of damage, but it can also kill Wurmcoils and Primevals, so I'm happy to make the trade.
I brought this up in my post above, but it does more, and typically for less life. Most Zoo creatures only eat up 3 life, Snap/Clique/Mite only eat up 1 life, and Exarch is the same. It misses Bob, and Goyf deals an extra point of damage, but it can also kill Wurmcoils and Primevals, so I'm happy to make the trade.
Alright you sold me on Vendetta, I'll take it for a spin.
I think it could maybe be worth it in Tezzeret's slot or or something.
Tezz does a lot more than just draw cards and is less fragile, so idk how I feel about dropping him. However I think you are right that would be it's place in the deck. I'll try it out because it seems powerful and there are some really cool plays you could do.
I brought this up in my post above, but it does more, and typically for less life. Most Zoo creatures only eat up 3 life, Snap/Clique/Mite only eat up 1 life, and Exarch is the same. It misses Bob, and Goyf deals an extra point of damage, but it can also kill Wurmcoils and Primevals, so I'm happy to make the trade.
Alright you sold me on Vendetta, I'll take it for a spin.
I've kept the Dismembers in the board just in case I'm playing versus Black, but beyond that, I've never really had an issue, so I'm a huge proponent. For three-color decks or decks with big color requirements, Dismember is much easier on the mana, but our end goal is to turn our creatures into mana sources, and our threats are mostly blue/colorless, so keeping up a black isn't terribly hard.
Goal Get platinium angel into play A.S.A.P and copy it with a metamorph.
I also have a Heartless version that is the same but - mystic for heartless then more Wurmcoils than angels (since it is now in bolt range).
The problem with both my lists is that niether has card draw or deck manipulation and only thoughtsieze for interaction. I like that thoughseize deals with anything but proactively.
Ok lets give this draka mystic thing a try. I realised I could use it to immidately draw cards put on top with academy ruins which is sweet.
The problem with both my lists is that niether has card draw or deck manipulation and only thoughtsieze for interaction. I like that thoughseize deals with anything but proactively.
That's really what's holding this deck back. If we had an artifact Scroll Thief or something similar, the lack of interaction wouldn't even be as big a deal since we could just overrun opponents with fat artifacts or Architect pumps.
Brad nelson used merfolk looter in his standard deck just to get more draw off a blue creature.
I've actually thought about Looter, but we need proper draw, not just card selection. We aren't like Pod or Twin where we want specific cards (well, other than Architect), we want critical mass. We already have plenty of tutoring anyway.
Courier's Capsule is a UUDivination with Architect in play, a proper Divination with Sculptor or Engineer, and potentially a measely 1U with Engineer and another creature, so I think it might be a contender for the Thoughtcast slot given it's cheaper on an empty board. If you run lot of sacrifice effects like Phyrexia's Core, then Ichor Wellspring is awesome, but otherwise we're really only left with Howling Mine type symmetrical effects for cheap, artifact-based card draw. It's a little disappointing.
Here is a list I've come up with Chief Engineer. It's a lot more control than auspiciousTactician's list, without Heartless Summoning and white as a remplacement.
On paper (haven't tested yet), it seems like it could have a few decent/good match-up like UWr, twin, infect, jund/junk,... Pod may be a bit difficult though. Any thoughts?
I don't think a U/W is worth it. By dropping black you lose access to Sphinx Summoner and the Paths could be some sort of black removal (ie. Vendetta or Dismember) instead. I don't think Wall of Omens belongs in this deck because this deck wants to tap its creatures on your turn, making the block-ability irrelevant. I would rather have the Walls be able to tutor like Treasure Mage/Sphinx Summoner instead of just draw. Or they could be more Spellskites. That would be good too.
I think you will find trying to play control Engineer kinda awkward. The control aspects and the use all of your mana on your turn aspects of the deck clash and I think most of the time you will end up with a suboptimal mix of the two strategies.
It has the best goldfish by far, it can be very fast and there is a nice concentration of enablers so drawing one is very likely.
Things get a lot tougher against actual opponents... I am really liking Kira I might want to find space in the main deck for her since she is so good at protecting angel. Remand and bouncespells have been a problem.. just getting tempoed out.
Heartless is not doing anything turn one. I guess it is annoying turn 4,I like to see it in my opening hand but not really later. My standard experience is that the card is better than it seems, it is almost free scry. I wouldn't play it in a non heartless build as you want 1 drops.
I feel like if you don't play it turn 1 it's going to be a liability and then it also sometimes will interfere with Thoughtseize turn 1. But free scry is also nothing to scoff at...
What do y'all think about Slaughter Pact instead of Vendetta? It misses the same targets as Vendetta and has no life loss. You also don't need to worry about what land you leave up and being able to pay for it after seems convenient in a deck that likes to tap all of it's mana every turn. It also has the upside of not tipping off your opponent by leaving a land untapped every turn.
I feel like if you don't play it turn 1 it's going to be a liability and then it also sometimes will interfere with Thoughtseize turn 1. But free scry is also nothing to scoff at...
What do y'all think about Slaughter Pact instead of Vendetta? It misses the same targets as Vendetta and has no life loss. You also don't need to worry about what land you leave up and being able to pay for it after seems convenient in a deck that likes to tap all of it's mana every turn. It also has the upside of not tipping off your opponent by leaving a land untapped every turn.
I personally like Vendetta since I find the prospect of spending a bunch of mana on one turn to be less ideal than a teensy bit over several. There's also a lot of mind games that go along with open mana. If nothing else, it's certainly worth testing though, and I could reasonably see a split, or maybe wiggling them in over Dismember in the side.
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I'm not disagreeing with any of that, but unfortunately, Duplicant can't beat Twin, doesn't do anything to wide decks like Zoo or Affinity, and is incredibly costly to recur if you need to kill multiple creatures (I mean, you could use your Metamorphs, but they're flex slots). It can also be easily circumvented by Pod players if they play their cards right.
Duplicant is certainly not bad, and it's easily the best option given the available cards, but there's room for improvement.
I understand we agree that Duplicant is currently the best card for its slot, but it has wider applications than you think.
You're right, Duplicant cannot beat twin and so gets sided out against it as well as against Storm, Scapeshift, and Control. However it is good against Zoo, Affinity, and other aggro decks. For Zoo, it's relevant to remove one of their larger creatures while also keeping pressure on them (it should be noted that it gains Goyf's p/t ability). Against affinity it can hit Etched Champions as well as other threats. Have you ever hit an Arcbound Ravager with a Spellskite in play? That's value. Sure, it doesn't hit Inkmoth Nexus, but that's what Shackles, Sphinxes, and sideboarded Dismembers are for.
Also, it has a high CMC but doesn't really take much effort to recur given that we are a deck focused on make artifacts cheaper and easier to play.
Duplicant hits at instant speed, using Master Transmuter. Yes its a two card combo but I can't tell you how often I have blown people out with a "flashed" in Contagion Engine, Sundering Titan, or Spine of Ish Sah.
That's true. I had always dismissed Master Transmuter as kind of gimmicky and trying too hard to only play really big creatures like Blightsteel Colossus that are too hard to cast without it, but I never really thought about the flash aspect. In this way I think it is a better Shimmer Myr which will make it worth testing.
On a side note, it might be worth it to play a 1-of Staff of Domination because it combos with Tezz and Architect. Something you wouldn't want to rely on, but could be backbreaking if it ever came up.
Master Transmuter wants to abuse CITP effects and faties, which is not quite where this deck is at. She's a goodie, and I've wanted to make her work for ages, but it's a different style of deck. I mean, you could morph the deck into something more attuned to her with Myr Battlespheres/Thopter Assemblies as finishers, Faerie Mechanist/Solemn Simulacrum as value enablers, but I don't know that it's better given how much it hinges on her.
As for Staff, I could maybe see one in the board in really grindy matches. I'm personally not a fan given we're trying not to actually combo it off with infinite mana (which you could with Pili-Pala, but that's a whole other package). It warrants testing I suppose.
Also, regarding the instant speed Duplicant, if you have to rely on another card to make your card good, it's an argument against it, not for it. Having the potential to cast it instant speed is nice, but it shouldn't be relied upon.
All good points. I saw the Staff as a card that was also pretty good on it's own but can be ridiculous given the right circumstance, but I think you're right that it probably doesn't fit here.
You've been pretty active on this thread, but I haven't even seen a working list of yours. What have you been testing? What has been working/not working for you?
I agree with you that it wants to abuse CITP abilities, but being able to put in threats like Wurmcoil Engine without having to worry about them being countered or as a surprise blocker or as a way to blank a Path to Exile. I look at her as Architects 5-8 / Cavern of Souls 5-8.
In regards to Staff of Domination, I love the card in Legacy and would be curious how it does in Modern. However I am not convinced that it will have as much of an impact. Though being able to tap down a Pestermite in response to it being enchanted seems nice, and the fact that you can turn any left over untaped creatures into life or cards is definitely an added benefit too.
3x Chief Engineer
3x Etherium Sculptor
2x Spellskite
3x Treasure Mage
3x Grand Architect
3x Lodestone Golem
4x Phyrexian Metamorph
2x Sphinx Summoner
1x Duplicant
2x Wurmcoil Engine
2x Vendetta
3x Fabricate
3x Thoughtcast
2x Academy Ruins
4x Darkslick Shores
3x Darksteel Citadel
3x Island
2x Phyrexia's Core
3x Sunken Ruins
1x Swamp
3x Watery Grave
1x Chalice of the Void
2x Dismember
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Pithing Needle
1x Platinum Angel
2x Shimmer Myr
1x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1x Thopter Assembly
2x Trinket Mage
As of late, I've really liked Vendettas main, since they kill more things, and you frequently take equal or less damage from it. The only downsides are whiffing on Bob, and the extra Goyf toughness every so often.
I've only played a handful of games with Dakra Mystic, but I'm liking it better than Judge's Familiar so far. Short of boardwipes and Scapeshift, I don't care about very many spells my opponent might cast, and the extra card draw tucked into a a blue one-drop for convoke/Architect has been very nice. Most people usually just slow roll against Familiar anyway. The only major downside is losing my Inkmoth Nexus blocker.
Out of curiosity, in your Heartless version, have you considered Vedalken Archmage? He dies to everything under the sun, but if you save him for a big turn, you can essentially chain stuff off the top of your deck until you run out of mana.
I still kinda like judge's familiar.. for example I metamorph + architect chained and so it was a 4/4 flyier and that ends games fast. I guess that is similar in that I like platinium angel as it is a large flyier. I don't like giving my opponent too much time once I have executed my plan. When decks like pod and jund can gum up the ground (although junk clumps the air :S)
However I am definitely in the mood for more card draw another card to test!
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Thoughtcast has been kind of iffy for me. I can usually get away with 3 mana, and sometimes two, but in the end I don't really know if ends up being better than Thirst for Knowledge. It might just be blind optimism.
Apparently I've completely missed that card in the past... My gut reaction is that it would slow down the deck by a turn which isn't the best, but I really want to chain Metamorphs and draw 5 cards... Also, it does mean that you get value out of every (artifact) spell you cast even if it doesn't resolve. I'll be considering this..
I play Serum Visions in my build because it can be played turn 1 and helps set up my important turns 2 and 3 and I have been very happy with it (although I would be happier if it were Ponder). Thoughtcast and Thirst cannot fill that role
Edit: @Balefire: Wouldn't Dismember be better than Vendetta?
Note that if you chain Metamorphs copying the archmage, you draw:
1st Metamorph: 1 card
2nd Metamorph: 2 cards
3rd Metamorph: 3 cards
4th Metamorph: 4 cards
Total: 7 cards (probably with a win condition in the mix)
I think it could maybe be worth it in Tezzeret's slot or or something.
I brought this up in my post above, but it does more, and typically for less life. Most Zoo creatures only eat up 3 life, Snap/Clique/Mite only eat up 1 life, and Exarch is the same. It misses Bob, and Goyf deals an extra point of damage, but it can also kill Wurmcoils and Primevals, so I'm happy to make the trade.
Alright you sold me on Vendetta, I'll take it for a spin.
Tezz does a lot more than just draw cards and is less fragile, so idk how I feel about dropping him. However I think you are right that would be it's place in the deck. I'll try it out because it seems powerful and there are some really cool plays you could do.
I've kept the Dismembers in the board just in case I'm playing versus Black, but beyond that, I've never really had an issue, so I'm a huge proponent. For three-color decks or decks with big color requirements, Dismember is much easier on the mana, but our end goal is to turn our creatures into mana sources, and our threats are mostly blue/colorless, so keeping up a black isn't terribly hard.
4 Dakra Mystic
4 Etherium sculptor
3 Chief engineer
2 Spellskite
4 Grand architect
3 Tresure mage
1 Kira great glass-spinner
4 Lodestone golem
4 Phyrexian metamorph
2 Sphinx summoner
1 Duplicant
1 Wurmcoil engine
2 Platinum Angel
2 Thoughtsieze
2 Fabricate
lands
4 Watery grave
4 Darkslick shores
4 Drowned catacombs
2 Academy ruins
2 Temple of deciet
6 Islands
1 Swamp
1 Nihil spellbomb
1 Chalice of the void
1 Grafdiggers cage
1 Trinket mage
1 Defence grid
2 Damping matrix
2 Thoughsieze
2 Dismember
2 Hurkly's recall
1 Spine of Ish Sha
1 Phyrexia's core
Goal Get platinium angel into play A.S.A.P and copy it with a metamorph.
I also have a Heartless version that is the same but - mystic for heartless then more Wurmcoils than angels (since it is now in bolt range).
The problem with both my lists is that niether has card draw or deck manipulation and only thoughtsieze for interaction. I like that thoughseize deals with anything but proactively.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
That's really what's holding this deck back. If we had an artifact Scroll Thief or something similar, the lack of interaction wouldn't even be as big a deal since we could just overrun opponents with fat artifacts or Architect pumps.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
I've actually thought about Looter, but we need proper draw, not just card selection. We aren't like Pod or Twin where we want specific cards (well, other than Architect), we want critical mass. We already have plenty of tutoring anyway.
Courier's Capsule is a UU Divination with Architect in play, a proper Divination with Sculptor or Engineer, and potentially a measely 1U with Engineer and another creature, so I think it might be a contender for the Thoughtcast slot given it's cheaper on an empty board. If you run lot of sacrifice effects like Phyrexia's Core, then Ichor Wellspring is awesome, but otherwise we're really only left with Howling Mine type symmetrical effects for cheap, artifact-based card draw. It's a little disappointing.
6 Island
1 Academy Ruins
2 Celestial Colonnade
3 Hallowed Fountain
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Wall of Omens
4 Chief Engineer
4 Etherium Sculptor
1 Treasure Mage
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Emperion
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Batterskull
4 Path to Exile
3 Mana Leak
3 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Cryptic Command
On paper (haven't tested yet), it seems like it could have a few decent/good match-up like UWr, twin, infect, jund/junk,... Pod may be a bit difficult though. Any thoughts?
3 Spellskite
3 Chief engineer
4 Grand architect
4 Treasure mage
4 Lodestone golem
4 Phyrexian metamorph
2 Sphinx summoner
2 Wurmcoil engine
1 Platinum angel
2 Thoughtsieze
3 Heartless summoning
2 Fabricate
lands
4 Watery grave
4 Darkslick shores
2 Drowned catacombs
2 Temple of deceit
2 Academy ruins
6 Island
1 Swamp
2 Thoughtsieze
2 Hurkyl's recall
2 Vendetta
2 Defense grid
1 Trinket mage
1 Grafdigger's cage
1 Chalice of the void
1 Nihil spellbomb
1 Excutioner's capsule
1 Kira great glass-spinner
It has the best goldfish by far, it can be very fast and there is a nice concentration of enablers so drawing one is very likely.
Things get a lot tougher against actual opponents... I am really liking Kira I might want to find space in the main deck for her since she is so good at protecting angel. Remand and bouncespells have been a problem.. just getting tempoed out.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
What do y'all think about Slaughter Pact instead of Vendetta? It misses the same targets as Vendetta and has no life loss. You also don't need to worry about what land you leave up and being able to pay for it after seems convenient in a deck that likes to tap all of it's mana every turn. It also has the upside of not tipping off your opponent by leaving a land untapped every turn.
I personally like Vendetta since I find the prospect of spending a bunch of mana on one turn to be less ideal than a teensy bit over several. There's also a lot of mind games that go along with open mana. If nothing else, it's certainly worth testing though, and I could reasonably see a split, or maybe wiggling them in over Dismember in the side.