Hello to the New Guy; emilan87 your deck looks good.
FNM 12-29-2017
1-3
5 color DeathShadow 1-2
G1 win, bolt for kill top deck.
G2 lost, stuck on land Mulligan1. Game went slow not in my favor, I held up removal and kill spells that never dropped, could not cast 3CMC.
G3 lost, he kills my stuff and then brings in a host of big guys I can not deal with.
Assault Formation Abazan 2-0
G1 quick win with flyers, flipped delver into Mantis Rider T4 win
G2 win, he could not develop blockers for flyers.
His deck was still developing and could have used tweaking.
Hornet deck 0-2
G1 lost, I started off fast doing damage 3 per turn, he played mana ramps to get out Hornet queen with Khans enchantment "when flyer creature etb it fights target creature" I was able to counter this combo but he drew into more of them. Killing my board and wining.
G2 lost. I misplay my fetchland and played land tapped and off mana, Unable to get the right mix of mana (no red) and he Inquisitions the cards I need to win, unable to play a creature or counter (only 1 blue source) drew into white sources. I was backpeddling most of the game.
Mono G Stompy 0-2
I do not feel bad about this lost as the deck is just good, either you have the answer or you do not. I spent both games killing off/ bouncing his spells trying to wear his hand down and not land a real threat.
Overall my counterspells were either duds or not relevant enough.
I am going to try to go more Prowess.
New Deck list
The YP were not doing enough, Geist is good but I found myself casting Rider more on T3. I wanted to go for a heavier burn package with late game attack.
I've got some words here. May seem harsh but it needs to be said.
what was the list before these changes? are you on a budget? Windswept Heath and no scalding tarns or snapcaster mage? Scalding Tarns are the optimal Land if you want the deck to run the smoothest. Snacaster mage is a modern powerhouse, and needs to be in ANY deck with blue. ANY deck with blue. At LEAST a 2 of, probably a 3 of.
- The Echoing truth is a sideboard card, you can probably drop the Zev from the 75 altogether.
- Serum Visions needs to be a 4 of. Simple as that.
- Jotun Grunt and Vexing Devil are cute cards at best, drop them altogether.
- The mana base is kind of atrocious...
something like this is going to be WAAAYYY better. This isn't tested of course, but you are guaranteed to hit the lands and the colors that you need.
- Make Mantis Rider a 4 of, you need a good attacker in the 3 spot.
- I don't like Slayers Stronghold. Your deck needs its colored sources.
- I think you need better cards in order to make Opt better. If you can't get snapcaster I wouldn't even bother running Opt. You already have Serum Visions, a singelton Faithless Looting (which looks terrible without snapcaster mage) and Chart a Course. You actually have too many draw spells and not enough spells that actually DO something. If you had monastery mentor or Young Pyromancer it wouldn't be totally bad because chaining multiple draw spells gives you creatuers. In this build you need better spells and better creatures.
- if you want a good counter spell, add mana leak, negate, or even deprive. Remand is ok but without Snapcaster, remand just looks infinitely worse than the others.
You will get suboptimal results with a suboptimal deck. Sorry man. That's just the way it is. If you can't get the more expensive cards, you should look at a deck like Suicide Bloo. It is a glass cannon but will win more than this pile.
You are a right the build is sub-par. Built partly out of frustration.
This was the deck I was running. I agree Snappy would be great, but I am no longer shelling out large sums of money on MTG. So yeah its budget.
The Fetchlands are not too bad with the mana base, I have had problems with the Utility lands early.
Hi WickedApp. There are really two ways you could take that list. I think the best would be slightly more control. That way you could really utilize sublime archangel (who is awesome by the way) and utilize young pyro and mentor effectively. You would likely just have to cut the mantis riders and add more counter magic. Logic knot is great and Ojutai is command is a good budget cryptic (although less powerful. Budgets not a bad thing. I find it more exciting as a deck builder.
You could also go more aggro and cut the young p and sublime archangel, add the fourth bolt, and possibly a couple Swift Spears, hazoret or bedlam Reveler.
Right now the creature base is a little “between to ideas”. I like the spell package you currently have for a more aggro-tempo build. I think you just need to decide what style of creature base you need.
after reading the comments posted yesterday, I quickly changed my deck before FNM (about 25 minutes before). I had not considered that Curdos comment that my deck's creature base was going in 2 different directions. That is the total problem! It created split decision trees that were both sub-par during play.
FNM report
3-1-0
Match 1
DS grix
G1 win, quick game
G2 win, bit grindier with him getting out 2 DS and a snappy, I won by Helix into top deck Boros Charm. Lucky
Match 2
Green Hornets
this deck game me trouble last week
G1, win t4-5, swiftspear into tempo disruption, vexing devil for 4damage, bolt
G2, win t4 kept 1 fetchland with 2 delvers, serum visions, opt, remand, disdainful stroke; drew into more delvers and land, had more gas in hand then could cast felt great. He had slow start with too much mana and drew into more, t3 I planned to cast Geist, but he played hornet nest so I played Mantis Rider.
Match 3
Abzan
g1 win, took lead and kept pressure.
G2 lost, he thought seized my early plays and resolved a Liliana and I could not play around her.
G3 win, kept pressure on him, early tempo stealing his turns, controlling the board state
I had bedlam reveler but choose to cast Geist over him (t6). Geist was the right call in the match up at that time.
Match 4
Mono Green Stompy
G1 lost,
G2 lost,
Not much to say, the match up is tough but does not feel unwinnable.
overall Elspeth was an All-Star allowing me to regroup and still put on pressure. I sided out the YP, reveler, faithless looting, every game for more tempo control.
after reading the comments posted yesterday, I quickly changed my deck before FNM (about 25 minutes before). I had not considered that Curdos comment that my deck's creature base was going in 2 different directions. That is the total problem! It created split decision trees that were both sub-par during play.
FNM report
3-1-0
Match 1
DS grix
G1 win, quick game
G2 win, bit grindier with him getting out 2 DS and a snappy, I won by Helix into top deck Boros Charm. Lucky
Match 2
Green Hornets
this deck game me trouble last week
G1, win t4-5, swiftspear into tempo disruption, vexing devil for 4damage, bolt
G2, win t4 kept 1 fetchland with 2 delvers, serum visions, opt, remand, disdainful stroke; drew into more delvers and land, had more gas in hand then could cast felt great. He had slow start with too much mana and drew into more, t3 I planned to cast Geist, but he played hornet nest so I played Mantis Rider.
Match 3
Abzan
g1 win, took lead and kept pressure.
G2 lost, he thought seized my early plays and resolved a Liliana and I could not play around her.
G3 win, kept pressure on him, early tempo stealing his turns, controlling the board state
I had bedlam reveler but choose to cast Geist over him (t6). Geist was the right call in the match up at that time.
Match 4
Mono Green Stompy
G1 lost,
G2 lost,
Not much to say, the match up is tough but does not feel unwinnable.
overall Elspeth was an All-Star allowing me to regroup and still put on pressure. I sided out the YP, reveler, faithless looting, every game for more tempo control.
Great night. Congrats on the 3-1. I'm always happy with a 3-1 night. Your creature base looks a ton better and definitely plays towards the aggro-control/tempo end of the specturm. That's the end I like to be on as well. I honestly think you don't need the young pyromancers in the list. That way you could add a third swiftspear and possibly another burn spell and really go aggro conrol.
It's great to hear the deck is trending the in the right direction! Congrats again on the 3-1.
Next week surprise that stompy player with a couple Hibernations and a Flashfreeze in your sideboard :).
Ok, as I promised im going to give you guys a little insight on the cards chosen for the deck after so munch testing. This deck still need something I hope that we can get to it if you guys discuss with me a little bit about your own Jeskai experiences with Delver.
First that all... This is a Delver deck and I have no plan of going full Prowess or copy/paste the Jeskai Tempo lists that we see on top tiers today, the long testing I made showed that if you pack a number of instants or sorceries higher than 25 you certainly are going to flip Delver on early turns. This creature is even good if it dont flips because the opponent will set his atention on killing it and you will have less chance on getting your Spell Quellers messed around on the 3rd turn. This is a munch better plan than having your Collonade beaten by a Fatal Push on the late after tapping out.
Curious Card Choises:
x2 Geists of Saint Traft: Theres not munch to say about this powerhouse, its a must have on this decks but... I only run 2 of them because its legendary and almost imposible to kill, so I dont want to overflow my hand and maximise my draws. I mostly dont play a Geist until I got my oponnent o a weak bstlefield position, until then... I play my quellers and delvers and try to take over the game while I kill them
x1 Thundermaw Hellkite: So, instead of a third copy of Geist I just slammed a big dragon here.. Is this guy crszy? Not at all! With 21 lands and a good pack of cards that draw me more cards or modify my top deck im certainly going to have 5 mana at the right time if the game goes that long. This is my emergency plan and I thing its the only good powerbomb that has the right to take the third Geist spot. Some of you have choosen Bedlam Reveler or Hazzoret but I dont really thing they are stable for a deck like this, they can work on some matches if given the conditions but also they might not... Thundermaw will get through at will take by surprise our opponent by killing them on one or two strikes. Also he doesnt care about most of the current meta removal
x3 Spell Queller: This guy is huge and also its a good card draw at any point of the game... I tested the deck with Monastery Swiftspear and while is a pretty damn good card I thinnk that it just doesnt cut ot because of two reasons: 1. It forces you to play your burn unwiselly and 2. Its a pretty bad top deck on the mid game, its pretty hard to make her get through an army of humans, Slivers or artifact creatures... We know that this deck suffers when the game extends so this queller guy helped me to have more effective draws. Also, for most aggro decks its a game to have their 2nd turn creature Remanded and then Quell the 3rd turn creature and then dedicate to protect you clock while killing their threats or burning them to death. Thats a mayor set back for them that can win you the game
x2 Cryptic Command: This card serves us a a toolbox to win grindy games or just have a way to get out last strike with geist or even lift their pesky permanents that we cant deal with... Cryptic Command is just huge at the right time but Im still fighting myself to know if I have the correct number... I think this as a main deck singleton is good while having another in the sideboard to give us and edge against control. I hope you guys can give me an opinion here... Caleb durward made some videos of Jeskai Delver with 2 cryptics while running 19 lands, you should check them out
x2 Mana Leak: I really prefer Mana Leaks instead of Spell Pierces in the main deck of Jeskai Delver for a good reason... Its nonsense to have Spell Pierce in a deck filled with Path to Exile because we give them less chance to tap out. Also it has more targets and its less of a dead card on the late game. If you need to protect your threats you csn use Dispels sided in later
x21 Lands: This may be a little higher than the common delver deck but its the necesary land count to reach your third land drop on your third turn effectively and turn on your Geists and Quellers. Also dont forget about those Cryptics and Thundermaw. The plan here is to let the 21 lands on the play and then cut 1 on the draw as you make your deck more efficient and also have one extra draw step to get more lands
x2 Gideon of the Trials: This big guy is there in the sideboard to help us on those very grindy matches that we feel that Geist is really having a hard time to get through. Gideon takes his place in those cases and help us to releave some damage and diverse the opponnent atention from your life total while transforming into a thread later. It served me perfectly to take control of those situations
Let me know what you think and ask me anything. This deck was mainly designed to solve the main problem of Jeskai Delver... Playing against very aggresive decks that dont let Geist or Swiftspear get through while still giving tons of damage and capability to swith between an aggresive and controling style of play
I think I responded already, but I forget and am too lazy to check so I will just respond again while I'm here. :). I love the list. I think it looks very well tuned. It tends towards the control end of the delver spectrum. That's not a bad thing at all, I just don't play a very controlling list so I am not as much help in that department. I know other here do play more towards midrange/control and will be helpful.
I did want to ask you about Gideon. I never really liked the small Gideon that much and didn't give him much thought. How has he played for you? I used to run Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, but the WW casting cost was too prohibitive.
On Another Note
UR Delver is 9-0 at the SGC Columbus Modern Tournament! That's great news for delver players everywhere. I hope he keeps it up! He beat Tron in round 9 on camera. I love beating up on tron because we are one of the few decks that just has it's number. Remand is a great card.
UR Delver is 9-0 at the SGC Columbus Modern Tournament! That's great news for delver players everywhere. I hope he keeps it up! He beat Tron in round 9 on camera. I love beating up on tron because we are one of the few decks that just has it's number. Remand is a great card.
I just watched the VOD of the day 1 match, the coverage started at match 2 with U/R delver (Samuel Kukor) 1 game up vs GB tron (Brenden McCaley). some cards i saw;
delver
remand
serum visions
pia and kiran nalaar
ceremonious rejection (post sideboard definately)
smash to smithereens (post sideboard definately)
electrolyze
lightning bolt
blood moon (unsure mainboard or from sideboard)
Kukor was able to recover and still apply pressure despite opponent's spot removal and disruption from collective brutality and warping wail
Emilan87- Welcome! It's always great to hear new voices on the topic. I have to say I really like your choices. We have come to similar choices. I really can't see anything I would recommend changing. Cryptic Command can sometimes be hard to cast, but in a more queller centric deck, I really like cryptic command. I would also like to see 3 geist of saint traft because he is so valuable. However, my deck "needs" geist a bit more than yours because you have several high end flying threats that I don't have (multiple quellers and thundermaw).
How has mana leak been for you? I am currently playing a Spell Pierce and Spell Snare, however, my deck is a bit more aggro. I am interested to see how mana leak has been performing.
Are there any matchups locally you are struggling with?
The Remand vs Mana Leak debate is as old as time. I have always just taken the stance that if you are a aggro-control or tempo deck, Remand is likely better. If you are a midrange, control, or sometimes even tempo mana leak is better. It also comes down to personal preference and history. I know many people who stand by mana leak no matter what and also those who do the same with remand. I have always had great luck with remand so I have stuck with it.
As for spell pierce, I also think it performs better in the more aggro-control versions that have an early threat. It's also good in the low land count decks. When the opponent is forced to play spells early, it's awesome. I have heard the complaint that it doesn't play well with path, but the same can be said for mana leak. Path is just too good not to play even if it's a nonbo with pierce and mana leak in my opinion.
I too love Cryptic Command, however, it just doesn't fit in a 19 land deck. If I could reliably run it, I would. If I ran 21+ lands I would run it.
Spell Snare has been great lately. I actually usually am not a big fan of snare, but I think it is very well positioned right now. I used to play two spell pierce, but goryo's vengeance was picking up (not so much lately) as well as storm and snare is very good in those matchups. It's also great in other matchups like any blue matchup with counter spells and snapcaster mage, all of affinity's power cards, etc. I like it for now.
NEW TOPIC
It looks like the delver player who was 9-1 in day one had a very rough day two. He didn't even finish in the top 32. I think he would have been much better suited with jeskai delver, not UR, but that's definitely a personal bias. I didn't get a chance to get his decklist, but I do know he was running delver, young p, and bedlam reveler. I think he had all the normal spells and a few spicy ones. The announcer said he had a lot of 1 and 2 ofs in his list. I will see if I can find his list.
I have run a copy of Cryptic Command in the deck in the past, I definitely think it can be done fairly easily, even in the aggro-control. Humble brag warning- I have talked to Caleb D and Great Nate about the list (Nate ran my list in his jeskai delver series to a 4-1 finish). Caleb also gave me a shout out during the deck tech his video series on channelfireball that you posted the link too. Thanks for posting the link. I hadn't watched those videos in awhile and it's always nice to see someone else run the deck. They both love the deck and were very kind to respond/reach out. I just wish they would play it more often. The more eyes the better, but they are both very busy.
What I like most about Caleb and Nate's list is that they are definitely more towards the aggro-control end of the spectrum. I hope Nate updates my list and changes it to his own personal jeskai delver deck for another MTGO league at some point. If midrange/control continues to pick up like the SCG meta I will definitely get back to running a copy or cryptic command.
On another note, I have been thinking about trying to main deck a copy of Search for Azcanta. At first I thought it would be an awesome sideboard card (and it has been), but was to slow for my maindeck. However, every single time I play the card in sideboarded games its completely bonkers. I think it's Stevomat, but it may be MR. Tzoulis, RutherJC, Need_More_DPS, or GofyTomcat that has been running a copy or two in their maindeck and has loved it. I lost track of everyone's list lately, but I know at least one of them is running a copy or two main. I am going to test a copy in the mainboard for a bit and see what happens. You never know until you try. Theory crafting says it doesn't fit exactly, but theory has been wrong many times. It actually still triggers prowess and filters so it's not a total loss on the turn it's played. We will see. Worse case scenario it goes back into the sideboard.
@ Curdbros: I dropped Saheeli and went for a slightly countermagic heavier deck recently. i still am running 1 Search of Azcanta in the main along with Chart a Course and 2 Smuggler's Copters. I only lost one game when i resolved Search of Azcanta but only by just, it is too good for me to really cut from the main deck. Chart a Course is gas and Smuggler's Copter never fail to give my opponent fits. Resolving a main phase Snapcaster Mage is something many opponents are not used to and crewing looter scooter ftw never gets old.
Just want to drop a quick picture of my deck. Apologies if its a little blur... phone camera and all...
EDIT: I realized the 4th Lightning Bolt is missing from the picture. Not sure why its not there... checked my deck and its there but oh well you get the idea
I beat Storm 2-1 and lost to Grixis Delver 1-2. But the Grixis loss was very very close.
yeah sounds pretty much how it is.
my experience against grixis decks used to be worst because we are basically racing card advantage against them if they are running the Thoughtseize + IOK package. however, now we have Search for Azcanta so we are on equal terms with them... however, Grixis are now venturing into Search for Azcanta territory but for that, they have to cut the traditional staples from their main, which works a bit to our advantage because Search for Azcanta kind of goes into our decks quite seamlessly.
You are right about the Mana Leak or Remand debate, that's why in my deck im running them on a split (3 Remands and 2 Mana Leaks) I have been very confortable with this. They are both excelent all around main deck counters for a tempo deck if you set up the right balance... I highly recomend you to test this vs Spell Pierces.
Spell Snare on the other hand may be well positioned right now with Storm decks on the rise. Jeskai Control decks uses them for some reason but I dont know... They can be a hit or miss lottery
To run Cryptic Command you need a minimum of 20 lands to cast it at the right time so maybe this one doesnt fit in your deck but... I think a a singleton copy of Cryptic may be a good thing even for a more aggro delver deck with 19 lands. I saw great nate saying that he wished that he could run a pair of copies on the deck because it is so good... Think, you can use this to tap all opponent creatures to hit with Geist or to prevent you from dying while drawing a card, or play if you need to counter some really awful spell while drawing to keep the hand full on those control matches. Also Caleb Durward tested an aggro version of the delver deck with 2 copies, you can see him here: https://youtu.be/J-sybLF_OTU
Countermagic preference can be meta specific (local/regional) and build specific. I have been playing Remand from the get go and extremely seldom had bad experiences with it because I play the tempo/delver variant. I now play Spell Pierces to either protect a light threat hand or thwart the opponent when they are trying to race. I don't like Mana Leak mainly because its 2 mana and i tend to keep hands with just 1 blue mana source and any of the 1 mana cantrips / delver in it... i also run just 18 lands... so i can't play Cryptic Command or a lot of 3 mana stuff, let alone 4 drops/spells.
My current iteration of the deck is just one i am comfortable with... its not the "best" Jeskai build but its just one i am comfortable with and have been playing/fiddling with for a long time. =)
Oh mah god mismatched Helices and white bordered bolts D:
On a more serious note, I feel you have too many basics, how's your color balance? Also, how's that main Dispel treating you?
One of the best feelings in the world is spell piercing a path/removal on your 2nd turn when delver flips. Respect the counters man. Or give me T2 geist. Either is fine
On the topic of search for azcanta, I still haven't tried it personally, but it been awesome in all kinds of decks (Tezzerator loves it for example). I probably try it out in my list eventually, but it's kind hard to justify it when I'm bringing 2-3 Blood Moons against control/grindy match-ups. This is the reason I gravitated towards resilient threats like geist and hazoret in the main and I've been trying the locust god for a couple of weeks.
I've always found that grixis delver is a favorable match-up, since we got better spells than them. Path, helix and geist (for whoever runs him) are extremely bad for them, you'll almost always win the damage race plus RiP out of the board wrecks them.
I have been vocal lately about my list. I am moving it towards more aggro and looking for cheap Burn removal.
I need to rework my sideboard still, but have considered adding chained to the rocks for the path to exile in the SB. Might bring in worship, but would like more hexproof creatures for that.
Oh mah god mismatched Helices and white bordered bolts D:
On a more serious note, I feel you have too many basics, how's your color balance? Also, how's that main Dispel treating you?
One of the best feelings in the world is spell piercing a path/removal on your 2nd turn when delver flips. Respect the counters man. Or give me T2 geist. Either is fine
On the topic of search for azcanta, I still haven't tried it personally, but it been awesome in all kinds of decks (Tezzerator loves it for example). I probably try it out in my list eventually, but it's kind hard to justify it when I'm bringing 2-3 Blood Moons against control/grindy match-ups. This is the reason I gravitated towards resilient threats like geist and hazoret in the main and I've been trying the locust god for a couple of weeks.
I've always found that grixis delver is a favorable match-up, since we got better spells than them. Path, helix and geist (for whoever runs him) are extremely bad for them, you'll almost always win the damage race plus RiP out of the board wrecks them.
that lone dispel has been great. opponents keep guessing what that card is and try and bait it out thinking its remand or something else. it has been functioning as a "4th" spell pierce for me. it have nailed all sorts of mid game spells for me to stay ahead.
its true i have too many basics! the islands are fine. mountains are okay-ish. that lone plains have caused me some mulligans issues but in like 1% of my games. its the price i pay for not owning any scalding tarns. once them bloody tarns get a reprint on par with ktk fetches, they are going straight in... but for now, this works and with search for azcanta and serum vision, it smooths things out very well.
I gave Search for Azcanta a try last night, but didn't draw it enough to really make a definitive decision on whether it should stay in the maindeck. I played against a humans deck and it was very good in that matchup. I will definitely need a lot more data to decide if it fits in the main. The power level is great and the fact that it flips to a land is actually very nice for decks with 18-19 lands.
I agree Mr. Tzoulis that when spell pierce works it's a great feeling. I really love when I can spell pierce a turn three Karn, Liberated against tron. They never think of pierce and it's always a blow out :p. As for Blood Moon I think my personal hatred for the card keeps me from playing it, but it's likely a great sideboard card if your mana base can handle it. It's much easier to fetch correctly when you are the one with the blood moon in hand.
I personally feel the same way as Need_More_DPS when it comes to remand vs mana leak. Remand has treated me so well in the past that I tend to go that direction. I am currently running a one of Negate which I may switch to a one of Logic Knot, but haven't decided. Getting the perfect balance of counter magic, removal, and burn is so tough in this deck.
Grixis decks vary so greatly on how controlling they are that it is tough to really know exactly how good the matchup is. I always like to decide if I am the aggressor or the defender (control). In that matchup I am typically the aggressor and want to play a aggro-control or tempo role. I have found the matchup against most grixis control/midrange to be fairly even. Celestial Purge is amazing against them as is [d]Dispel[/c]. It's a super fun matchup to play against and can go either way based on the lines chosen. Those are my favorite games to play.
@ Curdbros: I dropped Saheeli and went for a slightly countermagic heavier deck recently. i still am running 1 Search of Azcanta in the main along with Chart a Course and 2 Smuggler's Copters. I only lost one game when i resolved Search of Azcanta but only by just, it is too good for me to really cut from the main deck. Chart a Course is gas and Smuggler's Copter never fail to give my opponent fits. Resolving a main phase Snapcaster Mage is something many opponents are not used to and crewing looter scooter ftw never gets old.
Just want to drop a quick picture of my deck. Apologies if its a little blur... phone camera and all...
EDIT: I realized the 4th Lightning Bolt is missing from the picture. Not sure why its not there... checked my deck and its there but oh well you get the idea
Hi Need_More_DPS
Let me give you my insight about your deck, maybe some ideas can help you to inprove it
First, the lands... I know that Scalding Tarns are gold like expensive but you can still cut it by adding some mix of Polluted Delta to search islands and Arid Mesa for anything else. I would recomend a playset of Polluted to begin to increase the fetch count to 8... Cut some basics and sustitute some dual lands for shocklands
I would say that I absolutely love a singleton main deck Dispel. Every deck out there has an instant that can threaten your creatures or put the game on a bad spot... Like Collective Company or Gifts Ungiven
How do those Thopters work for you? I think you may need more one mana threats in order to give them propper use
I really wish Scalding Tarn would be reprinted so everyone could play them easily. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening anytime soon. I do agree that Polluted Delta works the same as tarn in 80% of cases so adding them would be fine. By "Dual Lands" I assume you meant cards like Sulfur Falls, Glacial Fortress, etc since this is a modern deck. I also think that the buddy lands are extremely underplayed and if a three color deck runs 21+ lands there should definitely be one or two copies in the mana base.
@ Curdbros: I dropped Saheeli and went for a slightly countermagic heavier deck recently. i still am running 1 Search of Azcanta in the main along with Chart a Course and 2 Smuggler's Copters. I only lost one game when i resolved Search of Azcanta but only by just, it is too good for me to really cut from the main deck. Chart a Course is gas and Smuggler's Copter never fail to give my opponent fits. Resolving a main phase Snapcaster Mage is something many opponents are not used to and crewing looter scooter ftw never gets old.
Just want to drop a quick picture of my deck. Apologies if its a little blur... phone camera and all...
EDIT: I realized the 4th Lightning Bolt is missing from the picture. Not sure why its not there... checked my deck and its there but oh well you get the idea
Hi Need_More_DPS
Let me give you my insight about your deck, maybe some ideas can help you to inprove it
First, the lands... I know that Scalding Tarns are gold like expensive but you can still cut it by adding some mix of Polluted Delta to search islands and Arid Mesa for anything else. I would recomend a playset of Polluted to begin to increase the fetch count to 8... Cut some basics and sustitute some dual lands for shocklands
I would say that I absolutely love a singleton main deck Dispel. Every deck out there has an instant that can threaten your creatures or put the game on a bad spot... Like Collective Company or Gifts Ungiven
How do those Thopters work for you? I think you may need more one mana threats in order to give them propper use
Yap you are right. Before Spirebluff Canals were printed, I used Polluted Delta and/or Bloodstained Mires in the main for the colour fixing. I think its time to add one or 2 of them again.
Cheers for the tip!
Copters are great. I have enough stuff in the deck to crew them when needed and even if I do not have anything to crew them with, they do sit there threatening the board and can be very disconcerting for the opponent (if they do or do not understand the Crew rules)... because I can flash Snapcaster in to crew the Copter to block and loot my hand for massive value.
Could we maybe put super long quotes into spoilers, or quote more specifically? Scrolling through all the quoted quotes that have been quoted is a little tiresome. The small quotes are totally fine, but, at least in my opinion, the quotes of quotes are super long sometimes and make the thread somewhat confusing.
If the majority is fine with the quotes I dont want to force anything, but it would make the thread a little bit more clear and probably easier to read for newcoming guys and galls.
Sorry for the "rant", its ment as constructive criticism.
@Curbros:
As I still havent had much time playing modern my changes arent tested yet, which will hopefully change tomorrow. But even though I am not able to play, this doesnt stop me from changing my list and thats what I came up with:
Spell Queller is extremely powerful and I dont really know why I just dont like it, but it is how it is and with V Clique being one of my favourite cards this was an easy switch. Probably I like the ability of Clique being way more proactive, with 1 more power and the EtB ability not being conditional and it is somewhat a counterspell (in some form) and the information it provides is very powerful as well.
The rest of the creaturepackage is pretty straight forward and is back to the roots for me, except for the geists.
With the printing of opt I went down to 3 serum visions and since than didnt really look back the split is pretty good.
Logic Knot was something I wanted to include again, as when it was in the deck it always performed exceptionally well.
The one offs in Boros Charms and Electrolyze are cards I really like but am not sure of right now, with Spell snare being very good in some match ups right now and horrible in others some part in me wanted to get 2 copies into the main but against eldrazi decks its just horrible and both electrolzye and boros charms won me games so they are here to stay, I guess.
The landcount is fine, but going up on fetchlands wouldnt be that bad, at least one Scalding tarn will be added in the near future.
My Sideboard went through the most changes, with the second copy of echoing truth being a concession to BW tokens. With the 2 Deflecting Palms I wanted to approach the SB plan to fight Big Creature decks a little different, with more aggro, instead of boarding into more control.
The card I am most excited about is Dire Fleet Daredevil as it does something on EtB unlike the blue flyer. With a CmC of 2 both just die to fatal push, but with the EtB the daredevil has the advantage, at least in my book. This card will get boarded in the grindy match ups (jund/grixis DS/abzan). Playing a Kolaghan's Command out of the jund players GY or even fatal pushing a goyf, or getting rid of lingering souls can swing the game in our favour as we gather card advantage against decks that are 1 for 1 trades. And the daredevil could be interesting versus burn as well, as it can get something like a helix to get rid of a creature and it has first strike, so it blocks every creature except for a pumped up swiftspear.
@NMDPS:
I have to agree with the others on your basic land count and emilan made a solid point of playing a mix of polluted deltas and arid mesas. The next time WotC might reprint the Zendikar fetches is the next modern masters set, but I would not place my bet on that.
Cheers man! I am crossing my fingers for a Zendikar fetchland reprint in a Standard set in the near future. It will come! I am sure about it... its a matter of WHEN! (I even said so on Maro's twitter open question last week. (and i wasn't the only one).
I did not considered what Snapcaster could do for those copters... they are a very interesting creature in this kind of deck
One last thing you should really consider in my opinion is to cut that Mantis Rider for an extra queller... that creature its just awesome to get and aggresive while stealing tempo. When I was testing Queller I came to the conclusion that it is efective when you have more 2 or more in your deck. Sometimes on the late games you are forced to play them without exiling a spell and with just one on the deck you are very likely to draw it at that point. So... add that 2nd queller, test it and then tell me how it worked
One last thing... try swaping that Vapor Snag for a Echoing Thruth. You have many creature removal at your disposal so you can take a good advantage havinh that card as a singleton to open the deck posibilities and stand against many other threats. Like Blood Moons, Chalises, etc
Oh I would add another Spell Queller if they are not $10 locally... i have been trying to get them since SOI rotated out but i cannot find another copy i can agree with the price with. Mantis Rider is an awesome budget replacement... I cannot really tell if people hate seeing it more than Queller.
Echoing Truth usually sees a place in my Sideboard in a token heavy metagame. I used to play up to 3 Vapor Snags main and still hold one because that card saved me many times from a loss. From bouncing opponent's Delve creatures, to my own Snapcaster Mages to dealing just that 1 damage... it is a REALLY good card like Dispel, a lone copy is just right for now.
Speaking about Chalice of the Void, that card has a big red target on it to get banned in Modern. It already got nuked in Legecy so if it ever appears in an metagame dominate oppressive deck in Modern, its gonna get hit definately. Tron has a big red target on its back going into the Modern Pro Tour this year. If Tron dominates the PT, expect something in it to get hit, depending which variant is the biggest bad guy in that event.
A minor personal rant if you'll allow me here, Chalice is a lock piece, same as bridge, stony silence, rest in peace etc. There's no reason to call for something like a ban for such a card. It's not oppressive, it's just... annoying. And I say that as a person that has both played it extensively (in Tezzerator) and faced it many times in the past months playing my delver list, I even lost to it just yesterday. It's beatable, as every lock piece/hate card is. Same as tron, you should have a positive match up against it. Your deck is fast and has cheap interaction, that's the recipe for beating big mana decks.
It's fine to don't like/hate certain cards or even archetypes -I absolutely loathe storm and I wouldn't mind if it didn't exist- but saying those cards/archetypes need to be banned or should never have been printed is absurd. None of it is dominating, none of it is blatantly broken, they're just different ways to play Magic. Hell, at the last SCG tournament there was 1 E-Tron and 1 Storm deck in the top 32. The way Modern is at the moment, we need unbans, more toys to experiment with, not restrict anything.
It's not personally directed at you NM_DPS, just I've seen this sentiment a lot and it annoys me.
As for the PT, my personal bet would be that the top 3 decks -by numbers, not performance- will be Storm, GDS and either E-Tron or Titanshift. (Also chalice is legal in Legacy, it's restricted in Vintage, and so is Mentor fyi)
Since it isn't deck related I have added my ban talk in a spoiler. I forget who said that we need more spoilers, but I think they are exactly right. I am guilty of the long quote in the past. I will use more spoiler tags in the future.
Personal rants are always welcome here as long as they don't jack the original idea. I am not the kind of OP that likes to warn people about going off topic for a bit. We are all fairly acquainted by now (on this thread) so I thinks it's healthy to share opinions. If anyone is opposed to that let me know. I personally always say to each their own in their opinions on what should or shouldn't be banned. It doesn't bother me when someone says they think a card should banned because that's their personal opinion. With that said, I personally do believe that there should be reasoning for any opinion. WOTZ has shown in the past that it seems that one reason is not enough.
Let's take simian spirit guide for example. I have long thought this card would be banned because it does nothing but degenerate things and is "free" mana which they have shown a preference to ban in the past. However, that is not enough on it's own to warrant a ban. The card has to actually start having results and harming play on a substantial level to warrant a ban. People who play ad nauseum would say it's not oppressive by any means but those who get turn one Blood Mooned out of a game would say that guide needs to go (or Blood Moon but that's a entirely different argument but also hasn't warranted a ban yet). I hate the card blood moon and would love for it to be banned, but I have to remember that some people enjoy playing Moon lock decks so we don't want to spoil their fun either. Everyone's opinion is there own and there are cards like Chalice of the Void and Blood Moon that are no fun to play against and cause feel bad moments, but for now they are a necessary evil and they haven't really warped modern significantly and therefore don't warrant a ban in my opinion. Some will disagree that that's totally fine. If either or both were banned I wouldn't be upset in the slightest, but I would be surprised.
On the pro tour I am going to go out on a limb and make a prediction that Temur Scapeshift will actually make a comeback possibly with the madcap experiment combo. I think the top 8 will include multiple scapeshift decks, a storm deck, a UR Control Moon deck, a delver deck ( I have to keep the faith), BG Tron, Lantern Control, and a GWx Company deck. That would be my prediction with the biggest "suprise" of the weekend being how many players played UR blood moon control decks with madcap experiment and/or through the breach.
Back to the deck
I am currently working on getting the deck back to being a good game one deck. I got a little carried away with making the deck good against a lot of matchups and lost some of the consistency. I will get back to you all after FNM and let you know how it went.
A minor personal rant if you'll allow me here, Chalice is a lock piece, same as bridge, stony silence, rest in peace etc. There's no reason to call for something like a ban for such a card. It's not oppressive, it's just... annoying. And I say that as a person that has both played it extensively (in Tezzerator) and faced it many times in the past months playing my delver list, I even lost to it just yesterday. It's beatable, as every lock piece/hate card is. Same as tron, you should have a positive match up against it. Your deck is fast and has cheap interaction, that's the recipe for beating big mana decks.
It's fine to don't like/hate certain cards or even archetypes -I absolutely loathe storm and I wouldn't mind if it didn't exist- but saying those cards/archetypes need to be banned or should never have been printed is absurd. None of it is dominating, none of it is blatantly broken, they're just different ways to play Magic. Hell, at the last SCG tournament there was 1 E-Tron and 1 Storm deck in the top 32. The way Modern is at the moment, we need unbans, more toys to experiment with, not restrict anything.
It's not personally directed at you NM_DPS, just I've seen this sentiment a lot and it annoys me.
As for the PT, my personal bet would be that the top 3 decks -by numbers, not performance- will be Storm, GDS and either E-Tron or Titanshift. (Also chalice is legal in Legacy, it's restricted in Vintage, and so is Mentor fyi)
No worries MrTzoulis! As CurdBros said, we are all familar with each other here and have a certain understanding with each other. =)
My POV about high profile decks/cards is mainly from a game designer/background stance. Oppressive cards like Chalice of the Void and Ensnaring Bridge stifles design space in non rotating formats. The Tron engine by itself will always be an issue in Modern because it is the most efficient mana ramp engine, seconded possibly by Elves. However, Elves as an archetype is easier to interact with. Tron is also an oppressive deck because it has the power to warp an entire format just to deal with it which results in crappy decks that lose to everything else (remember Eldrazi Winter?).
I think one thing doomsayers fail to bring about to this particular discussion is its actually a sincere warning to people who are thinking of buying into an expensive deck like Tron. It already got hit with a slap on the wrist with the banning of Eye of Ugin. We know at this point that WotC will never ban the pay off cards but some part of the engine. It may be Sylvan Scrying, Expedition Map or even something as innocent as Chromatic Star but its just a temporary measure because some time down the line, they will print another card which will go straight into the deck again (and hence the cycle continues).
Since it isn't deck related I have added my ban talk in a spoiler. I forget who said that we need more spoilers, but I think they are exactly right. I am guilty of the long quote in the past. I will use more spoiler tags in the future.
Personal rants are always welcome here as long as they don't jack the original idea. I am not the kind of OP that likes to warn people about going off topic for a bit. We are all fairly acquainted by now (on this thread) so I thinks it's healthy to share opinions. If anyone is opposed to that let me know. I personally always say to each their own in their opinions on what should or shouldn't be banned. It doesn't bother me when someone says they think a card should banned because that's their personal opinion. With that said, I personally do believe that there should be reasoning for any opinion. WOTZ has shown in the past that it seems that one reason is not enough.
Let's take simian spirit guide for example. I have long thought this card would be banned because it does nothing but degenerate things and is "free" mana which they have shown a preference to ban in the past. However, that is not enough on it's own to warrant a ban. The card has to actually start having results and harming play on a substantial level to warrant a ban. People who play ad nauseum would say it's not oppressive by any means but those who get turn one Blood Mooned out of a game would say that guide needs to go (or Blood Moon but that's a entirely different argument but also hasn't warranted a ban yet). I hate the card blood moon and would love for it to be banned, but I have to remember that some people enjoy playing Moon lock decks so we don't want to spoil their fun either. Everyone's opinion is there own and there are cards like Chalice of the Void and Blood Moon that are no fun to play against and cause feel bad moments, but for now they are a necessary evil and they haven't really warped modern significantly and therefore don't warrant a ban in my opinion. Some will disagree that that's totally fine. If either or both were banned I wouldn't be upset in the slightest, but I would be surprised.
On the pro tour I am going to go out on a limb and make a prediction that Temur Scapeshift will actually make a comeback possibly with the madcap experiment combo. I think the top 8 will include multiple scapeshift decks, a storm deck, a UR Control Moon deck, a delver deck ( I have to keep the faith), BG Tron, Lantern Control, and a GWx Company deck. That would be my prediction with the biggest "suprise" of the weekend being how many players played UR blood moon control decks with madcap experiment and/or through the breach.
Back to the deck
I am currently working on getting the deck back to being a good game one deck. I got a little carried away with making the deck good against a lot of matchups and lost some of the consistency. I will get back to you all after FNM and let you know how it went.
I haven't changed a lot during the last two weeks. Just a few cards:
-1 Path
+1 Izzet Charm
Reason: I wanted one more filter/loot card to prevent flooding.
So far it has been good every single game because it's so versatile. At yesterday's FNM I saw the card during three games and used all three modes, countering a Jace, killing a Vizier and ditching two lands
-1 Hazoret
+1 Clique
I wanted to go back up to 2 Cliques main because unfair strategies are popular again and I wanted to have one more way to interrupt them.
Btw, I had 2 Cliques and 2 Geists in my starting hand yesterday against UW Control and guess who won that game
-1 Geist
+1 Elspeth
This decision was really hard because I still think that 4 Geists main are good in my deck but didn't know what else to cut for Elspeth. She is my favorite walker of all times and almost unbeatable together with Geist. Attacking for 12 in the air with Elspeth, Geist and a flipped Delver won me a game against Humans yesterday at FNM.
SB Change
-1 Palm
-1 Verdict
+2 Anger of the Gods
I made this change for my local FNM because we have a BW Tokens player, Elves, Merfolk and now 2 guys playing Humans. Online I am still using my old sidboard.
So, during the last two weeks the deck has been doing quite well. Around 70% win rate on MTGO and 3-1 at yesterday's FNM.
At FNM I beat Creature Toolbox, UW Control and Mono White Humans but I lost against a sweet Mono Black Vampires tribal deck. The loss was kind of ridiculous though since I didn't see a single copy of Bolt or Path during both games (lost 0-2). I didn't drew a single Geist or Anger either. Sometimes that's just how Magic is...
Stronghold won me a game yesterday, Search for Azcanta was a house during two games, but my MVP yesterday was Snapcaster Mage (again).
Next week I might try the following:
-1 Elspeth
-1 Clique
-1 Shinka
-1 Jeskai Charm
+2 Warkite Marauder
+2 Electrolyze
And add 1 Daredevil to my sideboard.
Will tell you how that worked out...
I wasn't able to take extremely great notes so I will just go over main points of the game the best I can.
Round 1- RW Burn- Win- (1-0)
Game 1- For me I have always felt unfavored against burn in game one with one huge caveat. If I draw lightning helix and snapcaster mage I tend to fair much better. That's exactly what happened. I drew two helix throughout the game and flashed one back. Geist was able to do most of the damage.
Game 2- This one came down to the wire, but was never really in doubt. I drew the Flashfreeze and Deflecting Palm in my opener with a delver. I kept and the delver flipped on turn 3. The opponent got me down to 4 life and played a Eidolon of the Revelry. I snap bolted in response and he was down to 4 so it was a super strange finish. We starred at each other for a bit waiting for one of us to draw a helix or something. He drew a helix and helixed the snapcaster and attacked me down to 2. I assumed he either had another blocker or was going for broke with a burn spell. He cast lightning bolt and I deflecting palmed it for a draw (since I was dealt 2 from the trigger and he was dealt 3 from the palm and 2 from trigger). It was a super weird game. I am not a judge so I am not totally sure how it works or if that is correct, but I thought it would end in a draw and the judge agreed. I hate Eidolon of the Revelry so much .
Game 3- The third game was not as weird. I had an early swiftspear that did some work. I mainly used her as a blocker that can eat up little guys if I cast an instant. His early Goblin Guide netted me a land. I was able to block-path the goblin guide and swiftspear away. Helix netted me some life and a Deflecting Palm on his Boros Charm basically ran him out of gas. A snapcaster and swiftspear were able to do most of the damage as I had a counter heavy hand and countered his Searing Blaze. If he was able to land a bunch of creatures he likely would have won, but his spells matched up nicely with my counter magic.
Recap- This is one of those matchups that can go either way (as you will see later when I lose to burn in round 4). If they land Eidolon our matchup gets much worse. Also if we have the wrong half of the deck like having a bunch of removal and they cast all spells it can be really tough. All-in all I think we have the tools to deal with burn and if there is a bunch of burn in a specific meta we can definitely add a card or two to the board and make our post board matchup super favorable. Every time I play burn I think about adding a 4th Lightning Helix to my deck because it is so good. Jeskai Charm is also an option.
Round 2- Bant Company- win - (2-0)
Game 1- This game was fairly textbook. I had removal for all of his little creatures and was able to kill him with a flipped delver and Geist. I always feel very favored against them.
Game 2- This was a very long game and was back and forth. I was in a decent lead after killing some of his early plays and hitting him with two swiftspears. I cast Izzet Staticaster to take out two birds. However, he was able to land a Geist of Saint Traft of his own and pathed staticaster. I played a Geist as well and traded for his. Bedlam Reveler drew me a lightning helix to get a little life back. When I was tapped out from casting revler he was able to Collected Company hitting a spell queller and Eternal Witness for company. He hit me for two and passed back. I drew and passed back with land, spell pierce, and remand in hand. He attacked with queller and attempted a company. I cast remand and he responded with Unified Will which I pierced. I think he definitely should have waited until my turn to company, but I guess he was looking for something. A Slip Through Space off the top sealed the deal.
I apologize if the notes don't really explain the entire games or are confusing (like when I make a mistake with life totals in the notes). I just write down major plays in my notes during the game so I can convey the overall path of the game. I then add what I can remember when I'm writing it up. I hope to start playing on MTGO at some point and recording the videos so we can watch each game.
If you were anywhere above 2 life -and from I get you where at 3 before the bolt- you should've won. Casting Deflecting Palm drops you to 1 (from Eidolon's trigger), then prevents the Bolt on you and deals him 3. Coupled with the Eidolon's trigger he'd take a total of 5 damage. There's no instance there that can result in a draw. Weird ruling.
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You are a right the build is sub-par. Built partly out of frustration.
1 grim lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
1 Monastery Mentor
2 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Mantis Rider
1 Sublime Archangel
Sorcery 5
1 Chart a Course
4 Serum Visions
Instants 21
2 Opt
1 Manamorphose
3 Remand
1 Mana Leak
1 Spell Pierce
1 Emerge Unscathed
1 Vapor Snag
1 Boomerang
2 Boros Charm
2 Lightning Helix
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
1 Shinka, The Bloodsoaked Keep
1 Slayers' Stronghold
1 Sacred Foundery
1 Glacial Fortress
1 CliffTop Retreat
1 Seachrome Coast
1 Inspiring Vantage
1 Spirebluff Canal
1 Mountain
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
4 FloodedStrand
1 Poluted Delta
1 Negate
1 Dispel
1 Path to Exile
1 Deflecting Palm
1 Wear/Tear
1 Echoing Truth
1 Thing in the Ice
1 Saheeli Rai
1 Narset Transcendent
1 Detention Sphere
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Crumble to Dust
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Aven Mindcensor
This was the deck I was running. I agree Snappy would be great, but I am no longer shelling out large sums of money on MTG. So yeah its budget.
The Fetchlands are not too bad with the mana base, I have had problems with the Utility lands early.
I will work on it more. Thanks for the critic.
You could also go more aggro and cut the young p and sublime archangel, add the fourth bolt, and possibly a couple Swift Spears, hazoret or bedlam Reveler.
Right now the creature base is a little “between to ideas”. I like the spell package you currently have for a more aggro-tempo build. I think you just need to decide what style of creature base you need.
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Monastery swiftspear
2 Vexing Devil
2 Young Pyromancer
2 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Mantis Rider
1 Bedlam Reveler
Sorcery 6
1 Chart a Course
1 Faithless Looting
4 Serum Visions
Instants 19
2 Opt
3 Remand
1 Emerge Unscathed
1 Vapor Snag
1 Echoing truth
2 Boros Charm
2 Lightning Helix
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
land 19
1 Shinka, The Bloodsoaked Keep
1 Sacred Foundery
1 Glacial Fortress
1 CliffTop Retreat
1 Seachrome Coast
1 Inspiring Vantage
1 Spirebluff Canal
1 Mountain
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
4 FloodedStrand
1 Poluted Delta
1 windswept heath
after reading the comments posted yesterday, I quickly changed my deck before FNM (about 25 minutes before). I had not considered that Curdos comment that my deck's creature base was going in 2 different directions. That is the total problem! It created split decision trees that were both sub-par during play.
FNM report
3-1-0
Match 1
DS grix
G1 win, quick game
G2 win, bit grindier with him getting out 2 DS and a snappy, I won by Helix into top deck Boros Charm. Lucky
Match 2
Green Hornets
this deck game me trouble last week
G1, win t4-5, swiftspear into tempo disruption, vexing devil for 4damage, bolt
G2, win t4 kept 1 fetchland with 2 delvers, serum visions, opt, remand, disdainful stroke; drew into more delvers and land, had more gas in hand then could cast felt great. He had slow start with too much mana and drew into more, t3 I planned to cast Geist, but he played hornet nest so I played Mantis Rider.
Match 3
Abzan
g1 win, took lead and kept pressure.
G2 lost, he thought seized my early plays and resolved a Liliana and I could not play around her.
G3 win, kept pressure on him, early tempo stealing his turns, controlling the board state
I had bedlam reveler but choose to cast Geist over him (t6). Geist was the right call in the match up at that time.
Match 4
Mono Green Stompy
G1 lost,
G2 lost,
Not much to say, the match up is tough but does not feel unwinnable.
overall Elspeth was an All-Star allowing me to regroup and still put on pressure. I sided out the YP, reveler, faithless looting, every game for more tempo control.
Great night. Congrats on the 3-1. I'm always happy with a 3-1 night. Your creature base looks a ton better and definitely plays towards the aggro-control/tempo end of the specturm. That's the end I like to be on as well. I honestly think you don't need the young pyromancers in the list. That way you could add a third swiftspear and possibly another burn spell and really go aggro conrol.
It's great to hear the deck is trending the in the right direction! Congrats again on the 3-1.
Next week surprise that stompy player with a couple Hibernations and a Flashfreeze in your sideboard :).
I think I responded already, but I forget and am too lazy to check so I will just respond again while I'm here. :). I love the list. I think it looks very well tuned. It tends towards the control end of the delver spectrum. That's not a bad thing at all, I just don't play a very controlling list so I am not as much help in that department. I know other here do play more towards midrange/control and will be helpful.
I did want to ask you about Gideon. I never really liked the small Gideon that much and didn't give him much thought. How has he played for you? I used to run Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, but the WW casting cost was too prohibitive.
On Another Note
UR Delver is 9-0 at the SGC Columbus Modern Tournament! That's great news for delver players everywhere. I hope he keeps it up! He beat Tron in round 9 on camera. I love beating up on tron because we are one of the few decks that just has it's number. Remand is a great card.
I just watched the VOD of the day 1 match, the coverage started at match 2 with U/R delver (Samuel Kukor) 1 game up vs GB tron (Brenden McCaley). some cards i saw;
delver
remand
serum visions
pia and kiran nalaar
ceremonious rejection (post sideboard definately)
smash to smithereens (post sideboard definately)
electrolyze
lightning bolt
blood moon (unsure mainboard or from sideboard)
Kukor was able to recover and still apply pressure despite opponent's spot removal and disruption from collective brutality and warping wail
remand karn for the win was so sweet.
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
Thanks for the well written response.
The Remand vs Mana Leak debate is as old as time. I have always just taken the stance that if you are a aggro-control or tempo deck, Remand is likely better. If you are a midrange, control, or sometimes even tempo mana leak is better. It also comes down to personal preference and history. I know many people who stand by mana leak no matter what and also those who do the same with remand. I have always had great luck with remand so I have stuck with it.
As for spell pierce, I also think it performs better in the more aggro-control versions that have an early threat. It's also good in the low land count decks. When the opponent is forced to play spells early, it's awesome. I have heard the complaint that it doesn't play well with path, but the same can be said for mana leak. Path is just too good not to play even if it's a nonbo with pierce and mana leak in my opinion.
I too love Cryptic Command, however, it just doesn't fit in a 19 land deck. If I could reliably run it, I would. If I ran 21+ lands I would run it.
Spell Snare has been great lately. I actually usually am not a big fan of snare, but I think it is very well positioned right now. I used to play two spell pierce, but goryo's vengeance was picking up (not so much lately) as well as storm and snare is very good in those matchups. It's also great in other matchups like any blue matchup with counter spells and snapcaster mage, all of affinity's power cards, etc. I like it for now.
NEW TOPIC
It looks like the delver player who was 9-1 in day one had a very rough day two. He didn't even finish in the top 32. I think he would have been much better suited with jeskai delver, not UR, but that's definitely a personal bias. I didn't get a chance to get his decklist, but I do know he was running delver, young p, and bedlam reveler. I think he had all the normal spells and a few spicy ones. The announcer said he had a lot of 1 and 2 ofs in his list. I will see if I can find his list.
What I like most about Caleb and Nate's list is that they are definitely more towards the aggro-control end of the spectrum. I hope Nate updates my list and changes it to his own personal jeskai delver deck for another MTGO league at some point. If midrange/control continues to pick up like the SCG meta I will definitely get back to running a copy or cryptic command.
On another note, I have been thinking about trying to main deck a copy of Search for Azcanta. At first I thought it would be an awesome sideboard card (and it has been), but was to slow for my maindeck. However, every single time I play the card in sideboarded games its completely bonkers. I think it's Stevomat, but it may be MR. Tzoulis, RutherJC, Need_More_DPS, or GofyTomcat that has been running a copy or two in their maindeck and has loved it. I lost track of everyone's list lately, but I know at least one of them is running a copy or two main. I am going to test a copy in the mainboard for a bit and see what happens. You never know until you try. Theory crafting says it doesn't fit exactly, but theory has been wrong many times. It actually still triggers prowess and filters so it's not a total loss on the turn it's played. We will see. Worse case scenario it goes back into the sideboard.
How is everyone else doing with their lists?
Just want to drop a quick picture of my deck. Apologies if its a little blur... phone camera and all...
EDIT: I realized the 4th Lightning Bolt is missing from the picture. Not sure why its not there... checked my deck and its there but oh well you get the idea
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
yeah sounds pretty much how it is.
my experience against grixis decks used to be worst because we are basically racing card advantage against them if they are running the Thoughtseize + IOK package. however, now we have Search for Azcanta so we are on equal terms with them... however, Grixis are now venturing into Search for Azcanta territory but for that, they have to cut the traditional staples from their main, which works a bit to our advantage because Search for Azcanta kind of goes into our decks quite seamlessly.
Countermagic preference can be meta specific (local/regional) and build specific. I have been playing Remand from the get go and extremely seldom had bad experiences with it because I play the tempo/delver variant. I now play Spell Pierces to either protect a light threat hand or thwart the opponent when they are trying to race. I don't like Mana Leak mainly because its 2 mana and i tend to keep hands with just 1 blue mana source and any of the 1 mana cantrips / delver in it... i also run just 18 lands... so i can't play Cryptic Command or a lot of 3 mana stuff, let alone 4 drops/spells.
My current iteration of the deck is just one i am comfortable with... its not the "best" Jeskai build but its just one i am comfortable with and have been playing/fiddling with for a long time. =)
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
On a more serious note, I feel you have too many basics, how's your color balance? Also, how's that main Dispel treating you?
One of the best feelings in the world is spell piercing a path/removal on your 2nd turn when delver flips. Respect the counters man. Or give me T2 geist. Either is fine
On the topic of search for azcanta, I still haven't tried it personally, but it been awesome in all kinds of decks (Tezzerator loves it for example). I probably try it out in my list eventually, but it's kind hard to justify it when I'm bringing 2-3 Blood Moons against control/grindy match-ups. This is the reason I gravitated towards resilient threats like geist and hazoret in the main and I've been trying the locust god for a couple of weeks.
I've always found that grixis delver is a favorable match-up, since we got better spells than them. Path, helix and geist (for whoever runs him) are extremely bad for them, you'll almost always win the damage race plus RiP out of the board wrecks them.
I have been vocal lately about my list. I am moving it towards more aggro and looking for cheap Burn removal.
I need to rework my sideboard still, but have considered adding chained to the rocks for the path to exile in the SB. Might bring in worship, but would like more hexproof creatures for that.
that lone dispel has been great. opponents keep guessing what that card is and try and bait it out thinking its remand or something else. it has been functioning as a "4th" spell pierce for me. it have nailed all sorts of mid game spells for me to stay ahead.
its true i have too many basics! the islands are fine. mountains are okay-ish. that lone plains have caused me some mulligans issues but in like 1% of my games. its the price i pay for not owning any scalding tarns. once them bloody tarns get a reprint on par with ktk fetches, they are going straight in... but for now, this works and with search for azcanta and serum vision, it smooths things out very well.
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
I agree Mr. Tzoulis that when spell pierce works it's a great feeling. I really love when I can spell pierce a turn three Karn, Liberated against tron. They never think of pierce and it's always a blow out :p. As for Blood Moon I think my personal hatred for the card keeps me from playing it, but it's likely a great sideboard card if your mana base can handle it. It's much easier to fetch correctly when you are the one with the blood moon in hand.
I personally feel the same way as Need_More_DPS when it comes to remand vs mana leak. Remand has treated me so well in the past that I tend to go that direction. I am currently running a one of Negate which I may switch to a one of Logic Knot, but haven't decided. Getting the perfect balance of counter magic, removal, and burn is so tough in this deck.
Grixis decks vary so greatly on how controlling they are that it is tough to really know exactly how good the matchup is. I always like to decide if I am the aggressor or the defender (control). In that matchup I am typically the aggressor and want to play a aggro-control or tempo role. I have found the matchup against most grixis control/midrange to be fairly even. Celestial Purge is amazing against them as is [d]Dispel[/c]. It's a super fun matchup to play against and can go either way based on the lines chosen. Those are my favorite games to play.
I really wish Scalding Tarn would be reprinted so everyone could play them easily. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening anytime soon. I do agree that Polluted Delta works the same as tarn in 80% of cases so adding them would be fine. By "Dual Lands" I assume you meant cards like Sulfur Falls, Glacial Fortress, etc since this is a modern deck. I also think that the buddy lands are extremely underplayed and if a three color deck runs 21+ lands there should definitely be one or two copies in the mana base.
Yap you are right. Before Spirebluff Canals were printed, I used Polluted Delta and/or Bloodstained Mires in the main for the colour fixing. I think its time to add one or 2 of them again.
Cheers for the tip!
Copters are great. I have enough stuff in the deck to crew them when needed and even if I do not have anything to crew them with, they do sit there threatening the board and can be very disconcerting for the opponent (if they do or do not understand the Crew rules)... because I can flash Snapcaster in to crew the Copter to block and loot my hand for massive value.
Cheers man! I am crossing my fingers for a Zendikar fetchland reprint in a Standard set in the near future. It will come! I am sure about it... its a matter of WHEN! (I even said so on Maro's twitter open question last week. (and i wasn't the only one).
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
Oh I would add another Spell Queller if they are not $10 locally... i have been trying to get them since SOI rotated out but i cannot find another copy i can agree with the price with. Mantis Rider is an awesome budget replacement... I cannot really tell if people hate seeing it more than Queller.
Echoing Truth usually sees a place in my Sideboard in a token heavy metagame. I used to play up to 3 Vapor Snags main and still hold one because that card saved me many times from a loss. From bouncing opponent's Delve creatures, to my own Snapcaster Mages to dealing just that 1 damage... it is a REALLY good card like Dispel, a lone copy is just right for now.
Speaking about Chalice of the Void, that card has a big red target on it to get banned in Modern. It already got nuked in Legecy so if it ever appears in an metagame dominate oppressive deck in Modern, its gonna get hit definately. Tron has a big red target on its back going into the Modern Pro Tour this year. If Tron dominates the PT, expect something in it to get hit, depending which variant is the biggest bad guy in that event.
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
It's fine to don't like/hate certain cards or even archetypes -I absolutely loathe storm and I wouldn't mind if it didn't exist- but saying those cards/archetypes need to be banned or should never have been printed is absurd. None of it is dominating, none of it is blatantly broken, they're just different ways to play Magic. Hell, at the last SCG tournament there was 1 E-Tron and 1 Storm deck in the top 32. The way Modern is at the moment, we need unbans, more toys to experiment with, not restrict anything.
It's not personally directed at you NM_DPS, just I've seen this sentiment a lot and it annoys me.
As for the PT, my personal bet would be that the top 3 decks -by numbers, not performance- will be Storm, GDS and either E-Tron or Titanshift. (Also chalice is legal in Legacy, it's restricted in Vintage, and so is Mentor fyi)
Personal rants are always welcome here as long as they don't jack the original idea. I am not the kind of OP that likes to warn people about going off topic for a bit. We are all fairly acquainted by now (on this thread) so I thinks it's healthy to share opinions. If anyone is opposed to that let me know. I personally always say to each their own in their opinions on what should or shouldn't be banned. It doesn't bother me when someone says they think a card should banned because that's their personal opinion. With that said, I personally do believe that there should be reasoning for any opinion. WOTZ has shown in the past that it seems that one reason is not enough.
Let's take simian spirit guide for example. I have long thought this card would be banned because it does nothing but degenerate things and is "free" mana which they have shown a preference to ban in the past. However, that is not enough on it's own to warrant a ban. The card has to actually start having results and harming play on a substantial level to warrant a ban. People who play ad nauseum would say it's not oppressive by any means but those who get turn one Blood Mooned out of a game would say that guide needs to go (or Blood Moon but that's a entirely different argument but also hasn't warranted a ban yet). I hate the card blood moon and would love for it to be banned, but I have to remember that some people enjoy playing Moon lock decks so we don't want to spoil their fun either. Everyone's opinion is there own and there are cards like Chalice of the Void and Blood Moon that are no fun to play against and cause feel bad moments, but for now they are a necessary evil and they haven't really warped modern significantly and therefore don't warrant a ban in my opinion. Some will disagree that that's totally fine. If either or both were banned I wouldn't be upset in the slightest, but I would be surprised.
On the pro tour I am going to go out on a limb and make a prediction that Temur Scapeshift will actually make a comeback possibly with the madcap experiment combo. I think the top 8 will include multiple scapeshift decks, a storm deck, a UR Control Moon deck, a delver deck ( I have to keep the faith), BG Tron, Lantern Control, and a GWx Company deck. That would be my prediction with the biggest "suprise" of the weekend being how many players played UR blood moon control decks with madcap experiment and/or through the breach.
Back to the deck
I am currently working on getting the deck back to being a good game one deck. I got a little carried away with making the deck good against a lot of matchups and lost some of the consistency. I will get back to you all after FNM and let you know how it went.
Everyone have fun at pre-release if you go!
No worries MrTzoulis! As CurdBros said, we are all familar with each other here and have a certain understanding with each other. =)
I think one thing doomsayers fail to bring about to this particular discussion is its actually a sincere warning to people who are thinking of buying into an expensive deck like Tron. It already got hit with a slap on the wrist with the banning of Eye of Ugin. We know at this point that WotC will never ban the pay off cards but some part of the engine. It may be Sylvan Scrying, Expedition Map or even something as innocent as Chromatic Star but its just a temporary measure because some time down the line, they will print another card which will go straight into the deck again (and hence the cycle continues).
Looking forward to your battle rep!
Have a good weekend everyone!
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
Since everyone is sharing there updated lists, let me do that too:
2 Arid Mesa
3 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Steam Vents
1 Mountain
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Slayers' Stronghold
1 Shinka, the Bloodsoaked Keep
1 Spirebluff Canal
1 Inspiring Vantage
1 Seachrome Coast
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Glacial Fortress
Instants/Sorceries (24)
3 Path to Exile
4 Serum Visions
2 Spell Pierce
1 Mana Leak
2 Remand
1 Izzet Charm
1 Vapor Snag
1 Emerge Unscathed
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
1 Boros Charm
1 Jeskai Charm
1 Search for Azcanta
Creatures (13)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Vendilion Clique
Planeswalker (1)
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Dispel
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Shadow of Doubt
1 Celestial Purge
2 Stony Silence
1 Deflecting Palm
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Wear/Tear
1 Worship
I haven't changed a lot during the last two weeks. Just a few cards:
-1 Path
+1 Izzet Charm
Reason: I wanted one more filter/loot card to prevent flooding.
So far it has been good every single game because it's so versatile. At yesterday's FNM I saw the card during three games and used all three modes, countering a Jace, killing a Vizier and ditching two lands
-1 Hazoret
+1 Clique
I wanted to go back up to 2 Cliques main because unfair strategies are popular again and I wanted to have one more way to interrupt them.
Btw, I had 2 Cliques and 2 Geists in my starting hand yesterday against UW Control and guess who won that game
-1 Geist
+1 Elspeth
This decision was really hard because I still think that 4 Geists main are good in my deck but didn't know what else to cut for Elspeth. She is my favorite walker of all times and almost unbeatable together with Geist. Attacking for 12 in the air with Elspeth, Geist and a flipped Delver won me a game against Humans yesterday at FNM.
SB Change
-1 Palm
-1 Verdict
+2 Anger of the Gods
I made this change for my local FNM because we have a BW Tokens player, Elves, Merfolk and now 2 guys playing Humans. Online I am still using my old sidboard.
So, during the last two weeks the deck has been doing quite well. Around 70% win rate on MTGO and 3-1 at yesterday's FNM.
At FNM I beat Creature Toolbox, UW Control and Mono White Humans but I lost against a sweet Mono Black Vampires tribal deck. The loss was kind of ridiculous though since I didn't see a single copy of Bolt or Path during both games (lost 0-2). I didn't drew a single Geist or Anger either. Sometimes that's just how Magic is...
Stronghold won me a game yesterday, Search for Azcanta was a house during two games, but my MVP yesterday was Snapcaster Mage (again).
Next week I might try the following:
-1 Elspeth
-1 Clique
-1 Shinka
-1 Jeskai Charm
+2 Warkite Marauder
+2 Electrolyze
And add 1 Daredevil to my sideboard.
Will tell you how that worked out...
Here is what I played for reference:
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Spell Queller
1 Bedlam Reveler
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
1 Boros Charm
3 Path to Exile
1 Vapor Snag
1 Echoing Truth
3 Remand
2 Spell Pierce
3 Serum Visions
3 Opt
1 Faithless Looting
1 Slip Through Space
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
2 Steam Vents
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Spirebluff Canal
2 Seachrome Coast
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Wear // Tear
1 Abrade
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Negate
1 Dispel
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Search for Azcanta
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Celestial Purge
1 Flashfreeze
I wasn't able to take extremely great notes so I will just go over main points of the game the best I can.
Round 1- RW Burn- Win- (1-0)
Game 1- For me I have always felt unfavored against burn in game one with one huge caveat. If I draw lightning helix and snapcaster mage I tend to fair much better. That's exactly what happened. I drew two helix throughout the game and flashed one back. Geist was able to do most of the damage.
Side
IN- Flashfreeze, Celestial Purge, Negate , Dispel, Blessed Alliance, 2x Deflecting Palm. I don't side in EE or Abrade unless I see something in the post board games.
Out- 3x Remand, 1x Geist of Saint Traft, 1x Path to Exile, Slip Through Space, Faithless Looting.
Game 2- This one came down to the wire, but was never really in doubt. I drew the Flashfreeze and Deflecting Palm in my opener with a delver. I kept and the delver flipped on turn 3. The opponent got me down to 4 life and played a Eidolon of the Revelry. I snap bolted in response and he was down to 4 so it was a super strange finish. We starred at each other for a bit waiting for one of us to draw a helix or something. He drew a helix and helixed the snapcaster and attacked me down to 2. I assumed he either had another blocker or was going for broke with a burn spell. He cast lightning bolt and I deflecting palmed it for a draw (since I was dealt 2 from the trigger and he was dealt 3 from the palm and 2 from trigger). It was a super weird game. I am not a judge so I am not totally sure how it works or if that is correct, but I thought it would end in a draw and the judge agreed. I hate Eidolon of the Revelry so much
Game 3- The third game was not as weird. I had an early swiftspear that did some work. I mainly used her as a blocker that can eat up little guys if I cast an instant. His early Goblin Guide netted me a land. I was able to block-path the goblin guide and swiftspear away. Helix netted me some life and a Deflecting Palm on his Boros Charm basically ran him out of gas. A snapcaster and swiftspear were able to do most of the damage as I had a counter heavy hand and countered his Searing Blaze. If he was able to land a bunch of creatures he likely would have won, but his spells matched up nicely with my counter magic.
Recap- This is one of those matchups that can go either way (as you will see later when I lose to burn in round 4). If they land Eidolon our matchup gets much worse. Also if we have the wrong half of the deck like having a bunch of removal and they cast all spells it can be really tough. All-in all I think we have the tools to deal with burn and if there is a bunch of burn in a specific meta we can definitely add a card or two to the board and make our post board matchup super favorable. Every time I play burn I think about adding a 4th Lightning Helix to my deck because it is so good. Jeskai Charm is also an option.
Round 2- Bant Company- win - (2-0)
Game 1- This game was fairly textbook. I had removal for all of his little creatures and was able to kill him with a flipped delver and Geist. I always feel very favored against them.
Sideboard
In- Dispel, Negate, Search for Azcanta, Izzet Staticaster, Abrade, Engineered Explosives
Out- Spell Pierce, Remand, Monastery Swiftspear, Boros Charm, Faithless Looting, Path to Exile
Game 2- This was a very long game and was back and forth. I was in a decent lead after killing some of his early plays and hitting him with two swiftspears. I cast Izzet Staticaster to take out two birds. However, he was able to land a Geist of Saint Traft of his own and pathed staticaster. I played a Geist as well and traded for his. Bedlam Reveler drew me a lightning helix to get a little life back. When I was tapped out from casting revler he was able to Collected Company hitting a spell queller and Eternal Witness for company. He hit me for two and passed back. I drew and passed back with land, spell pierce, and remand in hand. He attacked with queller and attempted a company. I cast remand and he responded with Unified Will which I pierced. I think he definitely should have waited until my turn to company, but I guess he was looking for something. A Slip Through Space off the top sealed the deal.
I apologize if the notes don't really explain the entire games or are confusing (like when I make a mistake with life totals in the notes). I just write down major plays in my notes during the game so I can convey the overall path of the game. I then add what I can remember when I'm writing it up. I hope to start playing on MTGO at some point and recording the videos so we can watch each game.
Rounds 3-4 to follow this evening.