Yeah, Trinisphere on the other hand I have had trouble with making work. I have always felt that it's just 1 mana too expensive to really make the cut in a lot of decks. I feel like typically you just can't get it out soon enough. In our shell, that's not really the point because it's possible to do it on T1, but all that means is that you're both drawing and passing until you're both at 3 lands. I suppose it's good against decks with tons of 1-2 drops but eh.
I also think ricochet trap better bounce because we often just need an opening to make the game go and ricochet provides this.
I used to have ALOT of trouble with UW/UWx decks when I first started with Pyro Prison, and they can definitely still be troublesome. I ran Ricochet Trap for a good while, but it's just a little too cute, IMO. Defense Grid came after, and while it gives you some space early, its application is a little thin, especially considering I'd want a 2-of in the side, I could never find the room. Boil on the other hand.. I tried it for a while some time ago, but cut it for other things. I'm back on Boil now, and I can't say enough about it. It's a show-stopper. And, maybe even more importantly, it's probably the most fun card to play in the deck!
Speaking of Boil, I'm not a huge fan of just one in the sb. Even against mono blue, one is just not going to come up often. With how difficult I find counter decks against Pyro Prison, I feel like two need to be pushed for consistency's sake.
Every time I turn around, there are more folks wandering into camp - my favorite kinds: The Experienced but Silent Lurker.
First, old soul Timtamthebadman96 popped back in with thoughts on Earthquake. If ever I was to own a mint Beta card still in Modern circulation, it would be Earthquake. Thematically, except for maybe Magus of the Moon, it is the quintessential Pyro Prison spell.
A.) It offers 'sweep' against swarm.
B.) It offers 'fireball' direct damage against control/combo/infect which cares little for our life total during gameplay.
C.) It's an easy dump down in a 'must-bridge' scenario.
I've run it here and there, and its self-damage has stung me in the past. But, that's all part of our discipline. I find that the deeper we go on total hose cards that will sometimes contradict, the better result a skilled pilot can achieve. We aren't Fish or Gifts/Storm or Tron. Our ramp is ugly: Losing ground in order to gain ground.
Welcome to Revenged & JoandsonPaul! I enjoyed reading about your experimentations with Scab-Clan Berserker, Revenged. Where there is some differing opinions on how to handle Burn, you offer a novel solution: 'A One-Sided Eidolon of the Great Revel'. I'm curious to see how this develops.
Sideboard Weapons
There has been a lot of recent chatter about Ricochet Trap, Defense Grid, Boil, Trinisphere and similar 'answer'/'shield' cards. Although, they add ground-shaking implementations, they are all more narrow than a good old-fashioned spear. These are ALL 'solutions' looking for a 'problem'. As an example, it's like playing Pithing Needle or Sorcerous Spyglass and hoping (hoping!) that your opponents draws the corresponding threat. Don't turtle down, rage forth like a brahma bull.
I recommend bringing the Pyro to their doorstep. Anytime I see offered up decklists with sideboards that are devoid of aggro cards -- I'm talking about sideboards that are loaded up with traditional reactive-only 'hate' cards that are commonly seen in a R/W prison style deck -- then I wonder if the kinfolk is grasping 'The Pivot' which is critical to our ethos. To be clear, I'm fine with the above cards being used, but be mindful of your total threat density in your (75).
Fixed! (4) Rabblemaster and (1) Pia and Kiran round out the 60. Koth of the Hammer....sniff. For the latest campaign, he has not been asked to join. My Liege!!! I am not ready to talk about this loss.
I definitely hear you, Ray, you have to attack your opponent's life total to win. The problem is, against counter-heavy control, it can feel almost impossible to stick a threat without something like Boil. While Ricochet Trap and Defense Grid fall into the pillow fort category you speak of, I would argue that blowing up all of your opponent's blue mana is pretty aggressive. With Jeskai Tempo, GDS and UW Control being prevalent, Boil gives you an instant-speed must answer card to cast on their end step. It either wins you the game on the spot, or eats a Cryptic, tapping down your opponent's basic islands, and you stick your Chandra on your turn and ride her to victory. I'm actually leaning toward a second one, like rtdeeley suggests.
I watched Fluffy eat SEVEN Cryptics in one game the other day. (7). Definitely made me happy with my 2nd Torpor Orb decision, and also made me consider the second Boil. If I remember correctly, one of the Cryptics was on Boil, and the Chandra that stuck because of that ALMOST won the game, until double Cryptics bounced both his Bridges. Sometimes your opponent has all the things.
Also, as for threats, Stormbreath Dragon is really alluring to me in the sideboard. In matches where we go aggro and Bridge comes out, he's next to impossible to kill outside of O. Stone. I used to run him for a while, but that Jeskai matchup is pretty frequent these days.
@Revenged: I just reviewed your deck again, and admire your synergetic creation. My initial impression of Skullmead Cauldron was to dismiss it 100%. It's never been discussed - it's from an old set Dissension - no way it can be good, right? . But, you dug deep to find the right application:
Quote from Revenged »
Skullmead Cauldron?? Heh well...this is against Burn in Witchbane Orb's stead. Also experimental. My reasoning is that Orb might not do anything late game...they might break it or just run you through with creatures/Eidolons. Cauldron, on the other hand, takes you farther and farther away every turn it sees play. It's pretty good whenever you play it (as opposed to Dragon's Claw, for instance). The discard clause is hardly a problem either and might even help you (with Bridges and an Eidolon out). Still testing...
Sharp, dude. So, here's where I land. IF witchbane orb can not go wide effectively, i.e. it has little game against Scapeshift, Eldrazi Tron, Ad Nauseam, Gifts/Storm, then Cauldron is better than Orb. The 2nd part of this math equation: 'if A is greater than C, but B is greater than A, then....' is - Cauldron versus Dragon's Claw. I am with you. Cauldron seems better. So, all those times that I was reaching for the claw, I should have been considering the cauldron. I'm probably still seeing too much value from Witchbane to opt for Cauldron for now. But, a neat offer & a debate to revisit around Halloween.
@Caligula: You make a good point on Boil. (7)! Seven Cryptic Commands....woah, mama. That's some sort of record. True enough that anytime a U/x player faces us, his first fetch is for a basic island. So, the stage is set. If it's U/W Control, then the islands will keep getting pitched into play from the deck. Jeskai & GDS are 3-color, so the Boil's impact will be lessened. Plus, they win off of permanent based, board presence construction, and not spell based construction like U/W Control.
To really make the case for Boil(s), I'd have to see the full (75) Pyro Prison deck. U/W Control will attempt to pick apart our deck by identifying the correct spells to counter, and just wait for the late game to Cryptic away roadblocks and sail in with Celestial Colonnade or some such. My answer with Tormenting Suns Deck is to raise the threat density. I'm going to guess that I have more 'counterspell targets' than most Pyro Prison decks. U/W Control can't resist countering a tormenting voice - typically. I'm drawing on Tezzeret's Gambit, and finding win-cons on cycle cards: Sweltering Suns. 1/3 of the sideboard is Aggro and I've taken MtgNorin's advice by playing Relic of Progenitus which does more/cantrips than grafdigger's cage.
I'm not saying Boil is rubbish. I like the card. I put it in the prototype of Pyro Prison (listed at the very bottom of the Official Primer). And, Stickballruss used it in his Top 8 run down in Virginia at the SCG Open. I'll keep thinking on it.
Quick Play Tip: for those trying Tormenting Voice, don't use it too soon - unless you're short on land. Wait and see how the board develops and what cards you draw.
@Raytack usually at what time have you used tormenting voice? why should it be when you have few cards in your hand could suggest Dangerous Wager. Does Tezzeret's Gambit proliferate the counters of planeswalker?
The downside of her is actually some counter synergy with bridge (sort of, read on). She herself can't attack with it up. But the idea of her is that against aggro, we don't try to race so bridge is fine and she acts as a draw engine. In matchups where you take bridge out, she's a 4/4 flying (that's some decent aggression) as well as the engine. One other possible issue is that first discard where you potentially have some useful cards. My argument here is that by the time you are casting this 4 cmc dragon, most likely, you are pretty low on cards anyway. You can also play it later should you have something pivotal in your current hand.
Secondly, when we have the mana to cast her, that means anything we draw from her is going to be castable. We are already great at top deck mode but she doubles our effectiveness there.
With that said, she's a four drop so in terms of replacements, the known contender here would be Pia and Kiran Nalaar.
So Pia has 3 bodies. That's a lot of blocking against aggro decks..
Ava is 1 body, but a stronger single blocker and attacker that may halt attacks entirely in order not to just throw creatures away.
Both cards equal out in how much power is put on the board, though the full amount from Ava is flying while Pia has the paid reach/removal and numbers to attack.
Ava is a draw engine in a deck with a measly 2 Tormenting voices. Also, recent discussions suggest Koth as well could be a contender for the bench.
So yeah, I think she looks great on paper, but I'd like to hear some big picture stuff on her that potentially disqualifies her as a valid option. It's possible she's not up to snuff but I'd sure love to test her out and hear opinions.
Avaricious Dragon was in the list way way back, not mine though. From reading Ray's posts, the Dragon was cut because it was stuck behind Bridge too often, however I don't think anyone has played him since. Sounds like he could be worth a try.
TORMENTING VOICE
@joandsonpaul: Tormenting Voice in an opening hand provides what we need the most: Adaptability. Ideally, you want to identify the deck type that your opponent is on, and how he will affect your progressions. If you're land light, then T. Voice on turn 2 (an option not afforded by dangerous wager). Otherwise, be patient. There's no easy way to provide a play guide on this card, and it is a polarizing option with love/hate on this thread.
Note that the thread was chugging along for over a year, before it was ever considered. On paper, T. Voice looks...risky. Against burn & fast aggro, it certainly can be. It can also create bridge problems when drawn on an empty hand. But, it has bunches of upside.
TEZZERET'S GAMBIT
Similarly, Tezzeret's Gambit is a...gambit. To answer your question, yes - it does proliferate loyalty counters on your planeswalkers. Also, it increases counters on Walking Ballista. Lastly, it can bump up a Chalice of the Void. Picture a CotV on 1 for your turn 2 play against Gifts/Storm. On the following turn, you T. Gambit and increase the Chalice to 2 counters. That's a scoop. So, I'm basically running a Painful Truthsand getting a free proliferate for up to (9) targets in my main deck.
KOTH OF THE HAMMER
@DjAguila: Koth....yeah. There really is no succinct, simple answer. He is only gone from my build, because I have eliminated slots in the (60) for the benefit of draw/dig/loot. I couldn't keep him protected. Other variants of Pyro Prison play with more removal, so Koth of the Hammer can merrily prance along the mountain trails with more safety.
HAZORET THE FERVENT
Lastly, you asked about our god, Hazoret the Fervent. Like Koth, she is a perfectly fine addition to Pyro Prison, but the god comes with too many conditions to immediately impact the board in a Tormenting Suns build. But, sure, I could totally see myself coming back to Koth and Hazoret - just not right now.
DECK VARIATIONS
Although it may seem otherwise, with the differences I keep citing, all Pyro Prison decks are very similar. There are roughly (6) flex slots in the mainboard with a traditional core of the following cards, but even these spells are not set in stone......ever The Sideboard Deck as we are. So, don't feel like every deck submission has to conform.
I watched Fluffy eat SEVEN Cryptics in one game the other day. (7). Definitely made me happy with my 2nd Torpor Orb decision, and also made me consider the second Boil. If I remember correctly, one of the Cryptics was on Boil, and the Chandra that stuck because of that ALMOST won the game, until double Cryptics bounced both his Bridges. Sometimes your opponent has all the things.
I can't see the light... I'm... drowning under Cryptics! Jokes aside though this was brutal, but shows the density of our deck at times with threats, and yes, we lost to the EOT Bounce Bridge, Mainphase Bounce Bridge. This was after a Gearhulk and Snapcaster if I recall. So much... Torpor Orb we love you.
And last but not least.. An actual draw engine in this beautiful red deck with sweet synergy next to Ensnaring Bridge.
We actually have a decklist on my MTGO account this "Stream Theory" which has a sideboard of about 30 cards atm, some of those are obvious duplications. We had hangarback walker and many others. The dragon has come up. What I want to bring up though is in a Mindstone little ramp to Chandra, Sarkhan, Stormbreath. We resolved Sarkhan twice (Yep we're testing 5 CMC a touch here). When Sarkhan got his ultimate off though, which is similar to your dragon, the digging power, but love for Bridge was amazing. I'll leave this tasty snack here as lunch break is done =).
@joandsonpaul: Tormenting Voice in an opening hand provides what we need the most: Adaptability. Ideally, you want to identify the deck type that your opponent is on, and how he will affect your progressions. If you're land light, then T. Voice on turn 2 (an option not afforded by dangerous wager). Otherwise, be patient. There's no easy way to provide a play guide on this card, and it is a polarizing option with love/hate on this thread.
Note that the thread was chugging along for over a year, before it was ever considered. On paper, T. Voice looks...risky. Against burn & fast aggro, it certainly can be. It can also create bridge problems when drawn on an empty hand. But, it has bunches of upside.
Similarly, Tezzeret's Gambit is a...gambit. To answer your question, yes - it does proliferate loyalty counters on your planeswalkers. Also, it increases counters on Walking Ballista. Lastly, it can bump up a Chalice of the Void. Picture a CotV on 1 for your turn 2 play against Gifts/Storm. On the following turn, you T. Gambit and increase the Chalice to 2 counters. That's a scoop. So, I'm basically running a Painful Truthsand getting a free proliferate for up to (9) targets in my main deck.
@DjAguila: Koth....yeah. There really is no succinct, simple answer. He is only gone from my build, because I have eliminated slots in the (60) for the benefit of draw/dig/loot. I couldn't keep him protected. Other variants of Pyro Prison play with more removal, so Koth of the Hammer can merrily prance along the mountain trails with more safety.
Lastly, you asked about our god, Hazoret the Fervent. Like Koth, she is a perfectly fine addition to Pyro Prison, but the god comes with too many conditions to immediately impact the board in a Tormenting Suns build. But, sure, I could totally see myself coming back to Koth and Hazoret - just not right now.
Although it may seem otherwise, with the differences I keep citing, all Pyro Prison decks are very similar. There are roughly (6) flex slots in the mainboard with a traditional core of the following cards, but these spells are not set in stone......ever The Sideboard Deck as we are. So, don't feel like every deck submission has to conform.
"Similarly, Tezzeret's Gambit is a...gambit. To answer your question, yes - it does proliferate loyalty counters on your planeswalkers. Also, it increases counters on Walking Ballista. Lastly, it can bump up a Chalice of the Void."
@Raystack - This is great !!!
maybe it's more of a reason to use koth because it will get to ult first than chandra.
Here's something I've been thinking about lately.. how good is Rabblemaster right now? The meta is full of Bolts, ol' Snap-blockers, and of course the normal creature decks he's always been bad against. The only tier decks I can think of that I'd miss him game 1 are Tron, Scapeshift and Storm, and we have plenty to deal with those last two. Conversely,How often are you siding in Eidolon? Just about all the time? Me too.. maybe we swap playset for playset here? Just a thought.
Team Pyro Prison,
We've taken some great strides over the year of 2018, extreme brewing, and not taking 'no' for an answer. Russ put it well in a stream of mine, "You just do, no fear," and this is what MTGO has brought me that my FNM nor once a week games were bringing me, a chance to absolutely blow the lid off creative ideas, burn up in flames as they fail, or jam out the wins in the most hilarious but competitive fashion. If you have not realized from my mentality and posts here, I would classify myself as a Spike but don't be mistaken, I am the first to just jam "Omnithragdoorfire" at my local FNM, first to jam "Free Win Red," and first to jam "RallyFenza". The results of these over the past was Top 8 out of 70 player FNM with Omni, Top 8 at an IQ with RallyFenza, and a couple first places at FNM's with 20+ people.
Why do I say this, because there are two classifications of a Spike that I would like to introduce you to today. There is:
Net Deck Spike - A person who likely grabs Top 8 decks at large events and plays the 'best deck'
Pilots - This is where I classify myself. These are the people, that understand the lines, the outs, and the outs of their opponents. The one's that seem to call the cards off the top, when in reality they're naming what is their best draws. These are where the epic plays are, and what I would like to say I am becoming with Pyro Prison.
So where does this take us? Don't be afraid to try things. Don't be afraid to really give it some thought and explain why the cards are selected. With that, our latest decklist. I will put the game details in spoilers as I know some people had to run during the stream, and I'll let them watch prior to seeing how we finalized, we're close to what I think is a very interesting and competitive deck suited for current meta. Let's share:
Molten Rain - The cards utility to remove basic lands, remove creature lands, and do a few extra points of damage along with slightly tempo-ing out our opponent is great utility. Imagine the times you've played Ux Control where they finally get that 3rd Island.
-1 Goblin Rabblemaster - The discussion earlier had me thinking, "Why do I always jam Rabble fast, to watch him eat a bolt, or be blocked but the stupidest of creatures." As such, I removed one.
Stormbreath Dragon - This card is a 'Built in Chalice' as in it misses; Fatal Push, Path to Exile, and Lightning Bolt. In the UW Control matchups it avoids Detention Sphere and Gideons. It is weak to board wipes. What is missing here though, is even behind the bridge Stormbreath actually can be a singletime mana dump for X Damage to the face, and in the Control Matchup it can sometimes hit upwards of 6-7 damage.
Goblin Charblecher - You get to shine little buddy. This card plays Aggro, shooting people to the face, killing planeswalkers, and putting pressure. This card plays Control, picking off the Birds or Nobles that fix our opponents mana from a Blood Moon to just buying us time. Yes, there is a random nature to this card, but we need to still focus on "Reveal Mountain, x2 Damage!" On average this card is still doing approximately 2 - 4 damage it seems as I've used it, and numerous times yes, I have flipped a mountain. Remember you are than paying 3 CMC - Scry 1. It sucks, but it is a weird digging engine if you look at it this way.
Match Write-up
Watch stream if you like, or read on, see how we did today.
Matches:
UR Breach/Control:
Game 1: This game was a grinder. This game is always a view on how you look at your outs. When we talk about "Eating Cryptics" this is the game for it, you could say in one turn we did eat 3 Remands. So much so, that in the late game we stick a Chalice on 1, on 4, and on 3. (Cantrips/Bolt, Cryptic, Electrolyze). We end up getting so far, that we surpass our opponent drawing more than likely 70+ cards, Emrakul allowed them to go for the kill to rebuy their Electrolyze and when we determined this, chalice on 3 after our lock pieces were out was mandatory. How can we put a Chalice on 4 though? Stormbreath Dragon, Ironically it was Walking Ballista finally sticking that won us this, remember even super late you can naviagte any Ballista around Chalice.
Game 2: We decide to Turn 2 a Molten Rain to clear the way for Chandra/Hazoret. We end up sticking a Chandra, upticking to Molten rain with a ritual and get a concession. Our opponent was low on clock and probably at that point had enough of us. Our first game was I think well over 30 turns.
G/W Taxes?:
Game 1: An Early Moon via Magus into an early Walking Ballista looks to shut this game off when the Ballista kills a Noble. Our opponent does stick a few Aether Vials, but at this point we have a Charbelcher. Please note, that they have a Thalia, Heretic Cathar. Our Chandra/Koth would have died and we would not have been able to just let Magus not block, which would have enabled the lands. This lock behind Charbelcher and careful Control/Aggro navigation steals this game away, in a rather difficult matchup. We utilize Charbelcher to essentially clear threats, at one point not succeeding, but in fear our opponent uses a Selfless Spirit to protect. They have to choose before though, which is nice. We eventually do take this game to a finish and Molten Rain does pick off a basic plains that shows up, but the game is not too notable afterwards. (Of note, when targeting Thalia, we had a chance to kill them when we revealed 12 and a Gemstone, but we obliterated Thalia instead).
Game 2: We keep a very light threat hand, and feel our bridge will get us there. Chandra + Bridge are the options, we are able to stick an early Bridge (fear of the Freebooter Human). Thrun, the Last Troll does make an apperance which was cool to see. We do see a lot of ETB creatures this first game so we know Torpor Orb is a must. From behind the bridge and with Goblin Charbelcher to remove Nobles quickly we prevent the "Under the Bridge" issue we encounter. Over the course of the game, we "FIRE THE LASERS!"
Burn:
Game 1: Chalice on T1 on 1 Gets the scoop. Sorry Burn <3
Game 2: We keep a hand with a T1 Eidolon option. We end up playing and top decking an Abrade into our opponents double Goblin Guide. Through some careful navigation of life, and our opponent missing land drops we stick a Chandra into Blood Moon. Our opponent scoops at 16 life (us at 9). We presume their hand is full of 2 CMC spells, needing white.
Jeskai Control:
Game 1: We keep a hand with the pieces, Magus + Bridge. We immediately get a Walking Ballista out on 1, assuming control. We are ready for this to eat a bolt so that our Magus can stick. Instead our opponent plays a Snapcaster into our 4 mana, where we pump and kill. From there we end up pumping balista and attacking. Our opponent does find blue mana, in which we remove with Molten Rain. Pump + Attacks with Ballista and Magus are enough to close the game.
Game 2: We have a T1 Blood Moon, we keep. Our opponent is locked out of colors at this point, we are ready to play a Goblin Rabblemaster but find a Chalice of the Void first. Chalice on 1 gets a scoop. Our opponent was likely very dead with Rabblemaster following.
Humans:
Game 1: We are prepared to hide behind our bridge in game one, knowing this will be a struggle if we cannot empty our hand quick enough when we're facing down a Champion of the Parish + Mantis Rider. A Noble shows up and a Meddling Mage appears naming Anger of the Gods. Our Rabblemaster is on defense for our Chandra, Torch of Defiance. We eventually go empty handed. We do carefully navigate some of the tick ups/downs of Chandra in convo (I believe we only tick up). Of note, Stormbreath Dragon shows up. Our Stormbreath actually ends up hitting for 4 Damage on Monstrous, which is not bad against Humans. We have a Chandra Ult waiting and our opponent scoops.
Game 2: We have a T1 Chalice on 1. We get this down, to avoid Nobles and avoid Paths for our Magus of the Moon in hand. We add a second Chalice on 1 for good measure on T2. From here our opponent has established a board of Champion + Mantis again. We lock them out of lands and are then utilizing Chandra to pick off a Mantis. From here we lose our Chandra, and then establish Goblin Charbelcher. The card would go on defense but we end up drawing Ensnaring/Torpor Orb. We eventually estbalish a Stormbreath and go to work with Charbelcher. Although our opponent scoops, we have a Monstrous for 7 damage (they are unable to empty hand) + Charbelcher beats.
If you've been keeping track, our final record was: Matches: 5 - 0 Games: 10 - 0
I just finished watching, that was epic stuff. 5-0, 10-0 in games.. Well played, sir.. Well played. Even one of your opponents had to watch the Charbelcher mayhem!
I know it was Dragon appreciation day, but I think you should slide Stormbreath onto the bench, just to avoid a possible Bridge collapse, like you kinda saw in g2 vs Humans. Also, if you're going to run Belcher, maybe the suggestion the guy made after the league about Scrying Sheets and snow would be a good idea probability wise, giving you a slight hedge against a total whiff if you don't have a Moon.
Best part of the whole stream, in match 2 vs. Jeskai Control, game 2. Turn 1, they play Colonnade, pass. Fluffy; "Opponent? Do. You like. My Blood Moon." Lmfao. We liked it. That's all that matters!
@Revenged: I just reviewed your deck again, and admire your synergetic creation. My initial impression of Skullmead Cauldron was to dismiss it 100%. It's never been discussed - it's from an old set Dissension - no way it can be good, right? . But, you dug deep to find the right application:
Sharp, dude. So, here's where I land. IF witchbane orb can not go wide effectively, i.e. it has little game against Scapeshift, Eldrazi Tron, Ad Nauseam, Gifts/Storm, then Cauldron is better than Orb. The 2nd part of this math equation: 'if A is greater than C, but B is greater than A, then....' is - Cauldron versus Dragon's Claw. I am with you. Cauldron seems better. So, all those times that I was reaching for the claw, I should have been considering the cauldron. I'm probably still seeing too much value from Witchbane to opt for Cauldron for now. But, a neat offer & a debate to revisit around Halloween.
Thank you @Raystack for the hearty welcome and comments.
Skullmead Cauldron, yup...so. I guess it is fair to say the card is better than Dragon's Claw for all intents and purposes, maybe? But is it better than Witchbane Orb? Against Burn? Absolutely. Against other decks? Hmm...perhaps we need to evaluate our sideboard slots with a different formula. How about this:
Sideboard card value = n1+n2+n3...
Where n stands for the card's approximate score against a given matchup on a (made-up) 1-10 scale. Consider the following example, using your match-ups:
Explaining in common terms: Cauldron is excellent against Burn, kinda bad against Shift, useless against Ad and kinda bad/kinda useless against ETron/Storm. Orb on the other hand, is decent against Burn, okayish against Shift, kinda bad against Ad and somewhat okay against ETron and Storm. Disclaimer: the scores themselves here are, obviously, my personal, quick&rough evaluations
Either way - in the above example we can clearly see Orb being of higher value a card than Cauldron. Therefore - Orb should take preference over Cauldron. Simple, yes? Hmm...not really no, since there is also the metagame factor which has its own weight effect. But maybe there is some logic to all this. Maybe the same idea could be applied to other SB cards, even MD ones...? Hmm hmm...
Another small thought: your pet card Tormenting Voice got me thinking. You prefer that, I prefer Magma Jet. Maybe the question is not which one to use, but whether or not to filter at all? Let's be honest here - the difference between running Jets + "more" removal and Voices + "less" removal is minimal. Both achieve the same goal: either getting rid of an early threat and filtering a little OR taking a hit early and digging deeper for a wider answer (Bridge/sweeper).
There are builds that run basically 0 filters/draws (besides Chandra). So which one is "better"? To value consistency over explosiveness or to trust the RNG to tilt things in our favour? I remember you Raystack saying: "explosiveness > consistency" or something along those lines. But isn't having Voices kinda contradicting this statement? Or maybe there is more to this and it's not such a simple matter...hmm?
@Revenged: Definitely like the idea of evaluating cards on a score basis, it's a pretty awesome idea. But I don't know how practical it is because there are SO many different factors and dimensions to why you'd want a particular card. Especially with a shifting meta. In your example for instance, you're going off of the strength of the card on a match up basis. But other factors might include things like converted mana costs, or meta differences between high level tournaments, local tournaments, FNM, and mtgo. If you're comparing an enchantment vs an artifact for instance, then you have to consider how much artifact and enchantment hate is in each of those types of metas (subtracting from the overall score).
There is one more subtle point that I think a lot of players don't think about. Their own skill level and their specific play styles. Two different pilots can pick separate lines of play. Neither of them are necessarily wrong, as you could pick the incorrect line and still win. But in general, the correct line, or card choice in a sb, is about what has the highest % of winning. Even though the higher % choice could actually end up with a loss where the more risky (lower % choice), would have won. (Maybe a good discussion for Goblin Rabblemaster (risky) vs Goblin Charbelcher (safe)).
As an example of playstyles/skill, some pilots of Pyro-Prison may feel quite confident against UW control. But others may have a little more difficulty with this matchup. If this is the case, one player might opt for 2 Boils, where many other pilots run 1 or 0. I for one run into Tron nonstop online, so while the community has recently dropped down on spyglasses and pushed 1-2 Dampening Matrix, I ended up keeping 2x spyglass and dropped something else for a matrix because that's what 'I' was running into frequently.
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I used to have ALOT of trouble with UW/UWx decks when I first started with Pyro Prison, and they can definitely still be troublesome. I ran Ricochet Trap for a good while, but it's just a little too cute, IMO. Defense Grid came after, and while it gives you some space early, its application is a little thin, especially considering I'd want a 2-of in the side, I could never find the room. Boil on the other hand.. I tried it for a while some time ago, but cut it for other things. I'm back on Boil now, and I can't say enough about it. It's a show-stopper. And, maybe even more importantly, it's probably the most fun card to play in the deck!
First, old soul Timtamthebadman96 popped back in with thoughts on Earthquake. If ever I was to own a mint Beta card still in Modern circulation, it would be Earthquake. Thematically, except for maybe Magus of the Moon, it is the quintessential Pyro Prison spell.
Welcome to Revenged & JoandsonPaul! I enjoyed reading about your experimentations with Scab-Clan Berserker, Revenged. Where there is some differing opinions on how to handle Burn, you offer a novel solution: 'A One-Sided Eidolon of the Great Revel'. I'm curious to see how this develops.
Sideboard Weapons
There has been a lot of recent chatter about Ricochet Trap, Defense Grid, Boil, Trinisphere and similar 'answer'/'shield' cards. Although, they add ground-shaking implementations, they are all more narrow than a good old-fashioned spear. These are ALL 'solutions' looking for a 'problem'. As an example, it's like playing Pithing Needle or Sorcerous Spyglass and hoping (hoping!) that your opponents draws the corresponding threat. Don't turtle down, rage forth like a brahma bull.
I recommend bringing the Pyro to their doorstep. Anytime I see offered up decklists with sideboards that are devoid of aggro cards -- I'm talking about sideboards that are loaded up with traditional reactive-only 'hate' cards that are commonly seen in a R/W prison style deck -- then I wonder if the kinfolk is grasping 'The Pivot' which is critical to our ethos. To be clear, I'm fine with the above cards being used, but be mindful of your total threat density in your (75).
This is my current (15) - 1/3 Aggro Ratio:
2 Damping Matrix
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Torpor Orb
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Spellskite
1 Abrade
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
Main Deck (60)
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Tormenting Voice
2 Sweltering Suns
1 Tezzeret's Gambit
Acceleration || Mana (9)
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Pyretic Ritual
4 Blood Moon
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
Creature Threat (5)
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Abrade
1 Walking Ballista
Land (21)
17 Mountain
3 Gemstone Caverns
1 Mutavault
I watched Fluffy eat SEVEN Cryptics in one game the other day. (7). Definitely made me happy with my 2nd Torpor Orb decision, and also made me consider the second Boil. If I remember correctly, one of the Cryptics was on Boil, and the Chandra that stuck because of that ALMOST won the game, until double Cryptics bounced both his Bridges. Sometimes your opponent has all the things.
Also, as for threats, Stormbreath Dragon is really alluring to me in the sideboard. In matches where we go aggro and Bridge comes out, he's next to impossible to kill outside of O. Stone. I used to run him for a while, but that Jeskai matchup is pretty frequent these days.
that is, we need two cards (abrade and slagstorm) to do what legacy does.
Collective Defiance and Incendiary Command are not good.
Sharp, dude. So, here's where I land. IF witchbane orb can not go wide effectively, i.e. it has little game against Scapeshift, Eldrazi Tron, Ad Nauseam, Gifts/Storm, then Cauldron is better than Orb. The 2nd part of this math equation: 'if A is greater than C, but B is greater than A, then....' is - Cauldron versus Dragon's Claw. I am with you. Cauldron seems better. So, all those times that I was reaching for the claw, I should have been considering the cauldron. I'm probably still seeing too much value from Witchbane to opt for Cauldron for now. But, a neat offer & a debate to revisit around Halloween.
@Caligula: You make a good point on Boil. (7)! Seven Cryptic Commands....woah, mama. That's some sort of record. True enough that anytime a U/x player faces us, his first fetch is for a basic island. So, the stage is set. If it's U/W Control, then the islands will keep getting pitched into play from the deck. Jeskai & GDS are 3-color, so the Boil's impact will be lessened. Plus, they win off of permanent based, board presence construction, and not spell based construction like U/W Control.
To really make the case for Boil(s), I'd have to see the full (75) Pyro Prison deck. U/W Control will attempt to pick apart our deck by identifying the correct spells to counter, and just wait for the late game to Cryptic away roadblocks and sail in with Celestial Colonnade or some such. My answer with Tormenting Suns Deck is to raise the threat density. I'm going to guess that I have more 'counterspell targets' than most Pyro Prison decks. U/W Control can't resist countering a tormenting voice - typically. I'm drawing on Tezzeret's Gambit, and finding win-cons on cycle cards: Sweltering Suns. 1/3 of the sideboard is Aggro and I've taken MtgNorin's advice by playing Relic of Progenitus which does more/cantrips than grafdigger's cage.
I'm not saying Boil is rubbish. I like the card. I put it in the prototype of Pyro Prison (listed at the very bottom of the Official Primer). And, Stickballruss used it in his Top 8 run down in Virginia at the SCG Open. I'll keep thinking on it.
Quick Play Tip: for those trying Tormenting Voice, don't use it too soon - unless you're short on land. Wait and see how the board develops and what cards you draw.
Has anyone tested out Avaricious Dragon?
The downside of her is actually some counter synergy with bridge (sort of, read on). She herself can't attack with it up. But the idea of her is that against aggro, we don't try to race so bridge is fine and she acts as a draw engine. In matchups where you take bridge out, she's a 4/4 flying (that's some decent aggression) as well as the engine. One other possible issue is that first discard where you potentially have some useful cards. My argument here is that by the time you are casting this 4 cmc dragon, most likely, you are pretty low on cards anyway. You can also play it later should you have something pivotal in your current hand.
Secondly, when we have the mana to cast her, that means anything we draw from her is going to be castable. We are already great at top deck mode but she doubles our effectiveness there.
With that said, she's a four drop so in terms of replacements, the known contender here would be Pia and Kiran Nalaar.
So Pia has 3 bodies. That's a lot of blocking against aggro decks..
Ava is 1 body, but a stronger single blocker and attacker that may halt attacks entirely in order not to just throw creatures away.
Both cards equal out in how much power is put on the board, though the full amount from Ava is flying while Pia has the paid reach/removal and numbers to attack.
Ava is a draw engine in a deck with a measly 2 Tormenting voices. Also, recent discussions suggest Koth as well could be a contender for the bench.
So yeah, I think she looks great on paper, but I'd like to hear some big picture stuff on her that potentially disqualifies her as a valid option. It's possible she's not up to snuff but I'd sure love to test her out and hear opinions.
@joandsonpaul: Tormenting Voice in an opening hand provides what we need the most: Adaptability. Ideally, you want to identify the deck type that your opponent is on, and how he will affect your progressions. If you're land light, then T. Voice on turn 2 (an option not afforded by dangerous wager). Otherwise, be patient. There's no easy way to provide a play guide on this card, and it is a polarizing option with love/hate on this thread.
Note that the thread was chugging along for over a year, before it was ever considered. On paper, T. Voice looks...risky. Against burn & fast aggro, it certainly can be. It can also create bridge problems when drawn on an empty hand. But, it has bunches of upside.
TEZZERET'S GAMBIT
Similarly, Tezzeret's Gambit is a...gambit. To answer your question, yes - it does proliferate loyalty counters on your planeswalkers. Also, it increases counters on Walking Ballista. Lastly, it can bump up a Chalice of the Void. Picture a CotV on 1 for your turn 2 play against Gifts/Storm. On the following turn, you T. Gambit and increase the Chalice to 2 counters. That's a scoop. So, I'm basically running a Painful Truths and getting a free proliferate for up to (9) targets in my main deck.
KOTH OF THE HAMMER
@DjAguila: Koth....yeah. There really is no succinct, simple answer. He is only gone from my build, because I have eliminated slots in the (60) for the benefit of draw/dig/loot. I couldn't keep him protected. Other variants of Pyro Prison play with more removal, so Koth of the Hammer can merrily prance along the mountain trails with more safety.
PHYREXIAN METAMORPH
Further, since I don't run as many 2-drop control cards, Pia and Kiran Nalaar are an important safety net as a 4-drop. As for Phyrexian Metamorph, it's sa compounding threat which often copies Goblin Rabblemaster, Eidolon of the Great Revel or Ensnaring Bridge. Or, targets one of their permanents. The metamorph, like tormenting voice and tezzeret's gambit, is a 'risk' play with a 'high upside'.
HAZORET THE FERVENT
Lastly, you asked about our god, Hazoret the Fervent. Like Koth, she is a perfectly fine addition to Pyro Prison, but the god comes with too many conditions to immediately impact the board in a Tormenting Suns build. But, sure, I could totally see myself coming back to Koth and Hazoret - just not right now.
DECK VARIATIONS
Although it may seem otherwise, with the differences I keep citing, all Pyro Prison decks are very similar. There are roughly (6) flex slots in the mainboard with a traditional core of the following cards, but even these spells are not set in stone......ever The Sideboard Deck as we are. So, don't feel like every deck submission has to conform.
2 Sweltering Suns/Slagstorm/Anger of the Gods
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Pyretic Ritual
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Blood Moon
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Gemstone Caverns
1 Mutavault
Tormenting Suns Deck List
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Tormenting Voice
2 Sweltering Suns
1 Tezzeret's Gambit
Acceleration || Mana (9)
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Pyretic Ritual
Control (14)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Blood Moon
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
Disruption (2)
1 Abrade
1 Walking Ballista
Land (21)
17 Mountain
3 Gemstone Caverns
1 Mutavault
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Damping Matrix
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Torpor Orb
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Spellskite
1 Abrade
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
I can't see the light... I'm... drowning under Cryptics! Jokes aside though this was brutal, but shows the density of our deck at times with threats, and yes, we lost to the EOT Bounce Bridge, Mainphase Bounce Bridge. This was after a Gearhulk and Snapcaster if I recall. So much... Torpor Orb we love you.
We actually have a decklist on my MTGO account this "Stream Theory" which has a sideboard of about 30 cards atm, some of those are obvious duplications. We had hangarback walker and many others. The dragon has come up. What I want to bring up though is in a Mindstone little ramp to Chandra, Sarkhan, Stormbreath. We resolved Sarkhan twice (Yep we're testing 5 CMC a touch here). When Sarkhan got his ultimate off though, which is similar to your dragon, the digging power, but love for Bridge was amazing. I'll leave this tasty snack here as lunch break is done =).
"Similarly, Tezzeret's Gambit is a...gambit. To answer your question, yes - it does proliferate loyalty counters on your planeswalkers. Also, it increases counters on Walking Ballista. Lastly, it can bump up a Chalice of the Void."
@Raystack - This is great !!!
maybe it's more of a reason to use koth because it will get to ult first than chandra.
We've taken some great strides over the year of 2018, extreme brewing, and not taking 'no' for an answer. Russ put it well in a stream of mine, "You just do, no fear," and this is what MTGO has brought me that my FNM nor once a week games were bringing me, a chance to absolutely blow the lid off creative ideas, burn up in flames as they fail, or jam out the wins in the most hilarious but competitive fashion. If you have not realized from my mentality and posts here, I would classify myself as a Spike but don't be mistaken, I am the first to just jam "Omnithragdoorfire" at my local FNM, first to jam "Free Win Red," and first to jam "RallyFenza". The results of these over the past was Top 8 out of 70 player FNM with Omni, Top 8 at an IQ with RallyFenza, and a couple first places at FNM's with 20+ people.
Why do I say this, because there are two classifications of a Spike that I would like to introduce you to today. There is:
So where does this take us? Don't be afraid to try things. Don't be afraid to really give it some thought and explain why the cards are selected. With that, our latest decklist. I will put the game details in spoilers as I know some people had to run during the stream, and I'll let them watch prior to seeing how we finalized, we're close to what I think is a very interesting and competitive deck suited for current meta. Let's share:
Main Deck (60):
3 Gemstone Cavern
1 Mutavault
17 Mountains
Acceleration (9)
4 Desperate Ritual
1 Pyretic Ritual
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Blood Moon
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chalice of the Void
Utility (4)
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Molten Rain
1 Abrade
1 Walking Ballista
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Aggro Win-Con (5)
3 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Stormbreath Dragon
Aggro/Control Win-Con (2)
2 Goblin Charbelcher
Sideboard (15):
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
Control
2 Shattering Spree
2 Anger of teh Gods
1 Slagstorm
1 Boil
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Torpor Orb
Unique Card Choices
For the Games:
Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/219342934
Youtube: https://youtu.be/RUX0CLtw3tk
Match Write-up
Watch stream if you like, or read on, see how we did today.
Matches:
UR Breach/Control:
G/W Taxes?:
Burn:
Jeskai Control:
Humans:
If you've been keeping track, our final record was:
Matches: 5 - 0
Games: 10 - 0
Goblin Charbelcher, he a thing guys, he a thing.
Highlight at end: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/219408621
I know it was Dragon appreciation day, but I think you should slide Stormbreath onto the bench, just to avoid a possible Bridge collapse, like you kinda saw in g2 vs Humans. Also, if you're going to run Belcher, maybe the suggestion the guy made after the league about Scrying Sheets and snow would be a good idea probability wise, giving you a slight hedge against a total whiff if you don't have a Moon.
Best part of the whole stream, in match 2 vs. Jeskai Control, game 2. Turn 1, they play Colonnade, pass. Fluffy; "Opponent? Do. You like. My Blood Moon." Lmfao. We liked it. That's all that matters!
Thank you @Raystack for the hearty welcome and comments.
Skullmead Cauldron, yup...so. I guess it is fair to say the card is better than Dragon's Claw for all intents and purposes, maybe? But is it better than Witchbane Orb? Against Burn? Absolutely. Against other decks? Hmm...perhaps we need to evaluate our sideboard slots with a different formula. How about this:
Sideboard card value = n1+n2+n3...
Where n stands for the card's approximate score against a given matchup on a (made-up) 1-10 scale. Consider the following example, using your match-ups:
Skullmead Cauldron = 8 (Burn) + 3 (Scapeshift) + 0 (Ad Nauseam) + 2 (Eldrazi Tron) + 3 (Storm) = 16
Witchbane Orb = 6 (Burn) + 5 (Scapeshift) + 3 (Ad Nauseam) + 4 (Eldrazi Tron) + 4 (Storm) = 21
Explaining in common terms: Cauldron is excellent against Burn, kinda bad against Shift, useless against Ad and kinda bad/kinda useless against ETron/Storm. Orb on the other hand, is decent against Burn, okayish against Shift, kinda bad against Ad and somewhat okay against ETron and Storm. Disclaimer: the scores themselves here are, obviously, my personal, quick&rough evaluations
Either way - in the above example we can clearly see Orb being of higher value a card than Cauldron. Therefore - Orb should take preference over Cauldron. Simple, yes? Hmm...not really no, since there is also the metagame factor which has its own weight effect. But maybe there is some logic to all this. Maybe the same idea could be applied to other SB cards, even MD ones...? Hmm hmm...
Another small thought: your pet card Tormenting Voice got me thinking. You prefer that, I prefer Magma Jet. Maybe the question is not which one to use, but whether or not to filter at all? Let's be honest here - the difference between running Jets + "more" removal and Voices + "less" removal is minimal. Both achieve the same goal: either getting rid of an early threat and filtering a little OR taking a hit early and digging deeper for a wider answer (Bridge/sweeper).
There are builds that run basically 0 filters/draws (besides Chandra). So which one is "better"? To value consistency over explosiveness or to trust the RNG to tilt things in our favour? I remember you Raystack saying: "explosiveness > consistency" or something along those lines. But isn't having Voices kinda contradicting this statement? Or maybe there is more to this and it's not such a simple matter...hmm?
There is one more subtle point that I think a lot of players don't think about. Their own skill level and their specific play styles. Two different pilots can pick separate lines of play. Neither of them are necessarily wrong, as you could pick the incorrect line and still win. But in general, the correct line, or card choice in a sb, is about what has the highest % of winning. Even though the higher % choice could actually end up with a loss where the more risky (lower % choice), would have won. (Maybe a good discussion for Goblin Rabblemaster (risky) vs Goblin Charbelcher (safe)).
As an example of playstyles/skill, some pilots of Pyro-Prison may feel quite confident against UW control. But others may have a little more difficulty with this matchup. If this is the case, one player might opt for 2 Boils, where many other pilots run 1 or 0. I for one run into Tron nonstop online, so while the community has recently dropped down on spyglasses and pushed 1-2 Dampening Matrix, I ended up keeping 2x spyglass and dropped something else for a matrix because that's what 'I' was running into frequently.