Not only do I never want to draw a faithless looting, I also never want to see a faithless looting in my opening hand.
If I'm casting a faithless looting from my opening hand, that's a hand I should have mulled away.
Ok, the same exact thing can be said if t voice, the only difference is when facing 1/1s, the better late game to continue the lock with an empty hand is faithless.
We can all agree we need some sort of filtering but I don’t think we need things that go against the plan of being able to be stranded in our hand regardless of if we chalice or not. I’d take a magma jet over voice any day, not only am I trying to close out the game quicker, I can dig at instant speed to set up a Chandra +1 or dig for lands and sideboard cards.
I am just curious as to why you have such a hard on for t voice? The name of the game is drop locks and keep an empty hand, why are you holding cards to voice into a bigger hand that decreases your chances of emptying your hand? The longer the game goes to more chances the opponent has to get out from the lock.
I think we may be asking ourselves the wrong questions. Its not about faithless versus Tvoice, its about removal versus filter.
We are a red prison deck, our filter options are a joke. Let's be serious here, faithless and Tvoice are by no means GOOD. They are decent. I'd rather have blue to filter, but that's not an option. Let's talk about why were are filtering...
1. Too many of the same lock pieces
2. Too many 4-drops and only a few lands
3. Discarding bad cards in certain match-ups
So what cards are downright bad in certain match ups?
Chalice - Any deck that doesn't run 1 and 2 drops that matter - Tron, e. Tron, Company decks
Generally Chalice will always be pretty good.
Moon - Mono-color aggro, two color decks - Elves, Fish, D&T, 8-rack, lantern, skred
Rare fringe decks basically.
Bridge - Control & Combo - Scapeshift, Abzan Coco, Storm, U/w Control, Grixis Control
Even those last two are debatable, meaning we almost always want a bridge.
Having two of the same lock pieces is often good insurance from single targeted removal. So is drawing two of them really that bad?
Too many lands - Behind lock pieces this isn't so bad. You will eventually draw out of it and win. This is especially true game 1.
Too few lands - Ouch. Hate drawing 2 lands, never seeing a 3rd and dying. We always want to reach 4.
If we increased the land count to 22, there is a better chance we don't get screwed, requiring less need for filters.
Let's talk about removal...
These are my only two considerations these days.
Magma Jet - Scry, burn, removal. Can be used with Chandra mana. Deals with storm combo pieces, mana dorks, abzan coco pieces, all of which must be killed.
Anger of the Gods - Board wipe + exile. So many decks don't like the exile ability, so this has replaced all other wipes for me. Sure Sweltering gives you a cycle option if rabble is doing work, but too often I don't want to pay 3 mana, and too often I am staring at creatures that will be back in two turns anyway.
I will be going to the SCG regional in San Diego November 4th to compete and put this deck on the map (paired with Ray's results). Here's what I'm taking tonight and will be taking to the regionals, barring any breakthroughs....
I took some of the lessons each of us has stumbled upon and made a deck around it. Tvoice and jet for filter, jet and anger for removal, Chandra for utility, haz for finishing and 22 lands for consistency. Preach all you want about P&K or Magus, but this (at least to me) is the most straight forward approach to prison in a meta filled with eldrazi, GDS and coco. Also, Chandra, pyromaster has been amazing in testing alongside her better half. There are so many times I am behind a bridge, with Chandra and I draw a second Chandra.... at least now there's a chance we get to play both.
Paleglove, first of all, good luck at the regional, wreck it for all of us!
One thing I wanted to ask you about; Chandra, Pyromaster. I feel like she's halfway decent next to TOD, but alone, isn't her value a bit thin?
In the first 10 turns of the game, you'll have double Chandras about 30% of the time, And 72% of the times you do, you'll be sitting on a second Torch.
She also leaves a lot to be desired as far as ending the game. Card advantage is great, but if we ult a planeswalker, we probably want to ride it to a win. In the case of Pyromaster's ult, assuming she comes down turn 4 and ticks up every turn, she ults turn 7 at the earliest. In this scenario, assuming you still have all 3 Jets left, she'll triple Jet about 52% of the time. That's a lot of investment for marginal value. If I were going to regionals, I would probably swap it for another torch.
Welp, fingers crossed I'll feel okay (Been up and down for a bit) but I'll be taking the Pyro Prison to a Modern 1K tomorrow if I get the chance. A recent Modern 1K gave us a top 8 and local meta of the following:
I post this not to say "Oh look at a deck" but to show that my local meta can be quite diverse and things can win. With that being said, I'm taking 2 Faithless Looting out of the main and putting in 2 Magus of The Moon, because local meta has a lot of greedy manabases right now, so looking to punish tomorrow!
Wolf-Strong, Fluffy!!! Go get 'em today. And, pleased to hear of the swap out of Faithless Looting for a couple Magus of the Moon. But, I've said my bit on this - courtesies.
I am engaged by Paleglove's pared down approach to Pyro Prison. Rather than debate the correct filter, he's opted to drop down on the creature count. (-4) 2 pia and kiran nalaar and 2 magus. The filters are still there for him, but the creatures are not. Let us know how the testing works out - as I'm also preparing for a Regionals Premier Event on the 4th of November.
I have been 'evolving' on my position when it comes to 2-CMC filter/removal cards. Notably: the popular Magma Jet. I won't go to (3), but have (1) in place. Also, I have (1) Abrade in the main as the meta keeps moving towards the need for a quick snipe of 3 damage or artifact kill (it replaced my single Molten Rain - agree w/ Caligula on its removal). Oh, what sad times are these when a mountain man has to resort to a pedestrian 1-for-1 removal spell in his deck.
Agree with you and others on the (3) Eidolon of the Great Revel in the sideboard. I've seen the light on how these work as multiples. It becomes creature density. After siding them in, I can rise to (20) critters in rounds 2-3. That's quite a shock for an opponent that mistook me for 'free win red' in game 1. Swarm! Swarm! Swarm!
I had a game against U-Tron where just one Eidolon did (12) damage and delivered the win. Folks at my LGS, against the backdrop of my 5-0 record against the U-Tron player, have told me that we are incorrect in believing that U-Tron is a bad matchup for us. Huh.
Had a recent tear of back-to-back 4-0 finishes at my LGS with 23 people in attendance each time. And, there isn't a soul there that doesn't expect a Turn 1 moon, so imagine the results in a large tournament amidst a sea of uninformed! This is a highlighted match that speaks to the creature density threat I reference earlier, and it illustrates how a mutavault can pivot into an early threat.
An article recently said:
"...As such, players tend to default towards casting anything in their hand before animating a creature-land, saving their creature-lands only for the super-late-game."
Well, this is how I played it out....
<<< I played Jeskai control in round 3 to a win.
The trick was that I had 1 eidolon and 2 mountains and a mutavault. In hand was a ritual and a chandra. Most would go chandra off the ritual, but that's me perhaps getting 2-for-1 countered. (He has 2 islands up)
So, I fire off the ritual. He says ok. I play a 2nd eidolon. He is utterly confused and fails to stop it with the logic knot in his hands. He knows my deck, and what he 'must' counter in order to win.
He chose poorly. (Indiana Jones reference)
I used the extra mana to animate and attack for 4. Now he's looking at 2 eidolon and an :: early attacking :: manland. Booooom.
He later lamented that he didn't stop the eidolon which housed him for life in attacks and triggers. >>>
Lesson: Swords not Shields.
Similarly, I was struggling against an Eldritch Evolution deck with Vizier/Walking Ballista combo. This miiiight be our worst matchup. And, testing revealed that it's not about turtling down behind 'answer' cards - They'll overwhelm over the top of our Lock Suite. Sure, I still bring in silver bullet cards, but I do not take out our rabblemaster anymore.
U.S. Grant said it best:
"The art of war is simple enough. Find out where your enemy is. Get at him as soon as you can. Strike him as hard as you can, and keep moving on.
In every battle there comes a time when both sides consider themselves beaten, then he who continues the attack wins.
I have never advocated war except as a means of peace."
Similarly, I was struggling against an Eldritch Evolution deck with Vizier/Walking Ballista combo. This miiiight be our worst matchup. And, testing revealed that it's not about turtling down behind 'answer' cards - They'll overwhelm over the top of our Lock Suite. Sure, I still bring in silver bullet cards, but I do not take out our rabblemaster anymore.
The Event:
So, we've incorrectly named our event. It is far from a Modern 1k, but rather a Modern Win a Box (for Modern Masters). That being said, the event brought in 16 people. We are playing 4 Rounds with a cut to Top 8. Here we go!
Match 1: Storm
We are on the play, it is an individual I have not seen at the store before, let's go!
Game 1: I lead with an early Blood Moon to watch an Island be played into Serum Visions. My first thought is Storm, and I am correct. After aggressively going for our moon we never get past 3 mana and die to a storm grapeshot.
Game 2: We land a turn 2 Goblin Rabblemaster and our opponent fails to do much of anything.
Game 3: After a Serum Visions turn one for our opponent, we turn 1 a Goblin Rabblemaster. Our opponent does not have much to do on turn 2. We (as I am now calling) Reverse Curve into an Eidolon of the Great Revel and swing for damage with x2 Tokens and Goblin Rabblemaster. Our opponent concedes after their draw step.
Record: M: 1-0, G: 2-1
Match 2: Abzan
Game 1: There is not much to speak of in this matchup. We lock them down with an Ensnaring Bridge but they eventually find Qasali Pridemate and remove the bridge. The difficult part of this matchup is the multiple Kitchen Finks.
Game 3: This is likely the game of the day. Our opponent establishes a board of Burrenton Forge-Tender and x3 Kitchen Finks, and another creature. At this point we are finally established behind a Ensnaring Bridge and land a Chandra, Torch of Definance. We have an Anger of the Gods in hand, are are attempting to determine how to get around the Pro Red for the board creature. We've opted to fire off our Anger, and widdle away at some of the creatures with possibly Chandra. Our opponent sacs and keeps the board full. We + Activate Chandra revealing our second Anger, and just happen to have 6 mana (3 used from first Anger). Once cleared our opponent plays a Voice of Resurgence and we follow with a Chandra, Pyromaster. At this point we can pick anything off and I am now looking for anything. We top deck a Goblin Rabblemaster and on a turn later are able to remove a creature from blocking due to Chandra, Pyromaster ping.
Game 2: We don't do too much, but find out that although we think it is straight tron, end up getting decimated by large Hanger Back Walker and a Walking Balista. I'll go ahead and put an Anger or two back in...
Game 3: Although we are able to establish a Turn 2 Goblin Rabblemaster and punch our opponent down to 7 life, they clear our Blood Moon and Karn Liberated shows up. After stripping the board of important creatures and my hand of final cards Karn takes over and a Reality Smasher joins the fight to finish me quickly.
Record: M: 2-1, G: 5-4
At this point, there were about 5 or 6 other games that had drawn out. So the wins/losses were a bit goofy. After some intensive math we determined that if we drew we were in, so my Round 4 opponent and I drew for Top 8.
Top 8 Match 1: Titan Shift
Game 1: Although we have a late Blood Moon this is not always an issue against Titan Shift. Their key win con is hitting us in the face. The game stalls out for quite some time, but we fail to find a Ensnaring Bridge and our opponent stablizes on 4 life. We are eventually beaten down by Primeval Titan, many attacks he had to redirect at Planeswalkers to prevent from being killed. Game went about 14 turns.
Game 2: A Turn 1 Goblin Rabblemaster was unfortunately not quick enough (amazing right?). Our opponent is playing x4 Lightning Bolt so we are not safe and lose a Magus of the Moon follow up, and our Goblin Rabblemaster. After going all-in on these two cards, we do nothing but watch, make jokes, and socialize as our opponet does Scapeshift things.
Record: M: 2-2-1 G: 5-6
Recap:
Although we had an excellent showing, there are those times that we just don't draw the cards, and then there are the times we draw perfectly, variance happens. I'm getting a good feel for the deck though, and feel I am making in many cases the right calls. I need to fine-tune my use of Pia, or just get rid of the card. Little Chandra never showed up, but her bigger sis was a rockstar, and the Eldest Sis (TOD) was obviously a winner. More "Blood Moon" effects I believe are ideal, with the Magus pulling weight, albeit it I ran into a few bolts on the road.
I like the NEEDLE since it can stop a turn 1 Expedition Map, but it conflicts with our Chalice of the Void. Question being, 'how often do we remove the chalice when we are bringing in the NULL artifact? In other words, is there really a conflict?
I like the REVOKER, but too often I find that it is getting killed off by my sweeper effects. That said, I like the 2/1 body for reach.
I like the SPYGLASS perhaps the most, but wonder if it might be a turn late. Or, if it's lacking in creature damage/blocking. It's decidedly a shield, not spear.
Well played fluff, there's only so much you can do if you aren't drawing the right pieces at the right time. This is why the debate on our card filtering options is so important. It's great to have a couple extra threats or sweepers in the main, but it hurts our consistency.
Ray, I definitely think Spyglass is the way to go. Eldrazi Tron is a great example, if we name Karn while our opponent has an O. Stone in hand, or vise-versa. then we just lose the game. The added info makes it worth it in my opinion.
Swept FMM (TNM) again. Most notably was against boggles where I led with a turn 1 chalice on 1 and turn 2 anger.
So what is the general gameplan against storm? Look for a fast chalice on 2, fast rabble game 1 and game 2 bring in eidolon, cage, trinisphere, and look for an early rabble?
Hey guys. First off it's been great reading all the posts and advice. I really want to play a mono red control deck but budget is the issue for me...
I might get absolutely flamed and this maybe a little off topic, but do you guys have a budget alternative to Pyro Prison?
Budget is an issue for me and I was thinking Trinisphere with more of a Land Destruction type feel. Chalice and Bridge are out of the question for me. Running 4 Trinisphere seems good but unreliable on drawing all the time. Is there any cards which can fetch out artifacts in Red/colorless? Any card/deck suggestions are much appreciated. Sorry for being a scrub haha. Thanks!
A version of our deck has been highlighted by star city games. Our popularity is growing Mountainfolk and everyone hates it lol
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Modern - Pyro Prison
Modern - GW Tron
Modern - Mono G Tron
Modern - RWg Burn
Commander - Yisan, The Wanderer Bard cEDH build
Commander - Edric, Spymaster of Trest - Budget/Casual list - complete
Commander - Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis - $35 Budget upgrade
Commander - Edgar Markov - $150 upgrade
I encourage folks to watch this match. Informative. And, certainly not any sort of Pyro Prison variant.Ross Merriam called this deck 'All-In Red'. Accurate. He lost 0-2 to Saheeli/Felidar and commented multiple times, "I needed to apply more pressure and just wasn't able to."
Faithless Looting tripped him up against his own chalice in G1.........No aggro creaures throughout..........No utility lands for acceleration/attack.........Magus of the Moon 'card-holding' which toggled against a dangerous Bridge count for the sake of a feeble Attack......otherwise, just Planeswalkers for the win...........
Its been fun everyone, but I have to leave you all. After much play testing leading up to this regionals, I have decided Pyro Prison isn't gonna cut it.
Here are my main issues with the deck and why I believe it won't do well in a major tourney in this current meta...
Lack of card filtering/draw: We go back and forth on faithless looting and tormenting voice, but these are bad cards regardless. Pyro Prison is forcing us into bad choices. Neither card is what we want to do, and if that leaves magma jet as our only way to dig... its pretty sad. Staring down a spell queller or mantis rider with a 2 damage spell as a red mage makes me cry inside.
Lack of life gain or stalling potential: Anger is great, but it clashes with rabblemaster. Bridges win, but sometimes all 4 are in your bottom 30 cards with no shuffle effects.
Win conditions: Chandra. Rabble. Koth. All reasonable, yet without lock pieces, all very fragile.
Interaction: Lock pieces, magma jet and angers. How do we deal with enchantments? How do we deal with huge creatures? How do we deal with Karn? Well most of those come down to the answer - pray for a lock piece.
Mana acceleration: I have had some turn 1 and turn 2 Chandras with this deck and it feels great. I have also had a thoughtsieze leave me with literally only rituals and lands. Drawing rituals after turn 3 is just a joke. The card is good for explosive starts, but bad at any other time.
I sat down, really worked on the list over and over, but without progress I became frustrated. We lose the majority of our games to ourselves. The deck is explosive, mean and ruthless for those unaware of our plans. However, I mulligan a lot with this deck. I find myself looking at bad hands often. The deck really lacks any form of consistency over 5+ rounds. Drawing the wrong half of the deck happens more than I want. Nothing feels worse than winning the first game and then losing the second two to bad draws. Finally I caved and made the decision to add another color after my playtesting group told me to stop shoehorning myself into mono-red. I went with a Sun&Moon variant that is a bit different and sure its not Pyro Prison, but its damn close.
I'm not posting this to lead anyone astray, or cause arguments, just letting everyone know where I'm going and what I'm playing.
Here's what white does for us...
Filter: Nahiri, scry lands, fetch lands - Finally we can use our lands for more than just mana. Nahiri is a beast. She offers exiled removal and card selection. Removal: Slagstorm, Helix, Nahiri - Removal that does not clash with our threats is always a plus. Lifegain allows us to not be rushing towards a lock pieces every game. Threats: All the walkers, Rabble, Siegegang - Back on that siege-gang train. This guy is a beast, and so is Gideon. A turn 2 Gideon feels unbeatable versus certain decks. Sidebaord: Leylines, RiP, Stony, Settle - I mean why play white? The sideboard. Just look at how none of these clash with our game plan.
Interesting things to note: layline offers us 4 new lock pieces. Siege-gang can be tutored with Nahiri to make 6 gobos. We have scry lands for turn 1 plays. We have bolt again - with lifegain. We can throw away lock pieces with Nahiri. We have settle the wreckage for blow-outs that don't affect our gobos. The look on an elves player's face when he pumped his army and attacked into 3 open mana, then I SSG into settle for the immediate win.
This color clears up a lot of issues. No longer is valakut or Storm even a real deck against us with layline. Dredge becomes a joke. Affinity also becomes a push-over. We now have board-wipes for heavy aggro and enchantments no longer hose us. Gideon clears up the ad nauseam match-up and offers a 5-6 rabblemaster. Finally we get to upgrade P&K to Siege-gang since he can be brought out manually or through our angry lithomancer while aiding active rabbles.
I'm not saying everyone just jump ship, but its important to think outside the box when deck building. Sticking to one color may be causing us to lose games that we should be winning. Close-minded rebukes will only leads to missed opportunities. At the core of this deck, pyro prison is still alive and well. Rabble will still do what it does in pyro prison, so will the lock pieces and chrandra, the main difference is we traded explosive starts for consistent finishes. We traded bad red cards for good boros options. White simply offers more.
Also, the new moon change really helps this deck come November.
I will check in on you all from time to time, but this is likely the last decklist I will post. Really learned a lot here and had a great time.
Swept FMM (TNM) again. Most notably was against boggles where I led with a turn 1 chalice on 1 and turn 2 anger.
So what is the general gameplan against storm? Look for a fast chalice on 2, fast rabble game 1 and game 2 bring in eidolon, cage, trinisphere, and look for an early rabble?
I never had a problem with storm but it seems like I am the only one playing 3 maindeck Abrades. Killing Baral on the spot is crucial! Chalice on 1 gives you time, on 2 is a winner. Apart from that you might be able to drop a fast Rabblemaster or a well placed Moon effect and snatch the win that way. After SB depending what yours look like - Eidolon, Trinisphere, Cage, Orb etc.
.............I'm very conflicted by Paleglovesyndrome's comments. After adopting Pyro Prison with his first tournament appearance a mere 40 days ago, he has been enthusiastic in his analysis. His shortened stint with us is fine, but let's be fair about the data. I write this with wishes to not want to start a conflict upon his departure - simply a recounting of the facts.
On September 16th, he went 2-2 with a first time run of a Pyro Prison partial-homebrew deck - he said he's never competed with Pyro Prison before.
On September 22nd, he went 4-0 with a more core Pyro Prison deck and said he's 100% onboard.
Since? It's been a number of very unorthodox experimentations. He wrote "I still want to advocate the filter card we should try is Mishra's Bauble"
On October 2nd, his proposed deck had (4) Magma Jet and (3) Slagstorm alongside (4) Chandra, Torch of Defiance and (2) Chandra, Pyromaster.
Again, Conflicted. I don't want to start a rabble, rabble, rabble. But, I received Paleglove's criticisms about Pyro Prison competitiveness in today's meta as premature and denoting a lack of long-term testing of our core/winning list. Heck, I just went 8-0 in back-to-back (23) person FNMs, and others have had plenty of success.
So, best wishes to Paleglove. We've enjoyed your spirited contributions - jus' sayin' let's be transparent about your record of play and where it led you.
I maintain that W/R Prison does not offer the consistency and pressure that you claim, but that is not for us to debate here. Good luck on that side of the fence. Again, I am not asking, nor wish to receive, a reply to this post. It would serve little purpose. We've said our opinions --- on to brighter horizons!
Question: when we lose to Eldrazi Tron, U Tron, CoCo Counters, or Titan Shift, how does it usually happen?
Answer: we start strong, locking them down for turn after turn, and fail to find a threat before they find an answer.
Solution(?): an oldie but goodie! A card that was around since the early days, Crystal Ball. In the scenario I've described above, I can't find a better card to get us there.. I'm going to test it out as a 2-of. Is it going to be a problem at the 3-drop spot? Stay tuned, mountainfolk!
I sat down, really worked on the list over and over, but without progress I became frustrated. We lose the majority of our games to ourselves. The deck is explosive, mean and ruthless for those unaware of our plans. However, I mulligan a lot with this deck. I find myself looking at bad hands often. The deck really lacks any form of consistency over 5+ rounds. Drawing the wrong half of the deck happens more than I want. Nothing feels worse than winning the first game and then losing the second two to bad draws. Finally I caved and made the decision to add another color after my playtesting group told me to stop shoehorning myself into mono-red. I went with a Sun&Moon variant that is a bit different and sure its not Pyro Prison, but its damn close.
Hey Paleglover, I would certainly like to know how your deck does, best of luck, may you find the red cards win it and the white cards don't ;). I do believe though I may have a 'happy medium' and will see what Raystack thinks about a most recent iteration of the deck. That being said I would like to address something in Paleglover's list that has me thinking he is not doing the best things, and hopefully Paleglover can let us know.
Choice of Siege-Gang-Commander: This card, by itself, can generate 3 other goblins and can hit the face. That being said in a 23 land deck you are at approximately 50% to hit the little gobble on Turn 5. Yes there used to be mana acceleration, and indeed you still have Simian Spirit Guide which now feels anemic due to the lack of rituals. Although I understand the point of rituals late game are worthless, they are there to get you out to an incredibly fast start. Without other rituals you are below a 50% to hit Siege-Gang Commander on curve, and although you are planning to use Nahiri to search him up... I just shake my head at this. See below.
The Gideons: I love this, I do. But it is a serious non-bo with the lock package of Ensnaring Bridge. The reason I bring this up is that you comment about drawing the right 'half' of your deck. I don't see that problem solved here, and again I don't believe Nahiri is the solution.
Nahiri, the Harbgringer: If she is the solution for the card draw and for removing/getting the large targets out of the way. You will hit Nahiri on turn 4 (draw) 33.56% of the time (on the play 30.8% of the time). The other issue I have with Nahiri here is that the last thing I'd want to fetch up is mr. Siege-Gang Commander. I need an Emrakul, I need an Elesh Norn, I need a haymaker. Yes each of these non-bo's with Ensarning bridge, but if we have bridge turned on correctly so does Siege-Gang.
What is going Right though: What I do highly agree with though is Rest in Peace, Leyline of Sanctity, and am disappointed to not see Stony Silence, Blessed Alliance, or Wheel of Sun and Moon. The key here is if you're adding White, you have some of the most premium sideborad cards. Raystack notes we are a "Pre-boarded" deck, so if I am going to add white, and Modern being a format people are trying to go 'over the top' in terms of hate or their plan, why are we not taking our "Pre-boarded" deck and bringing in strictly the most hateful cards in the matchup and stripping out our 'soft-lock' (funny to say) pieces.
Where's Ajani Vengeant?: I dunno, this guy just speaks more to me then Nahiri in this build, unless you swap out something to make Nahiri a hay maker. This would rotate your sideboard to have enchantment removal though, so it is a directional choice.
So where does that bring Pyro Prison?
I'd be curious but I believe we have a balance here that I'd like to propose to our good ole creator Raystack. Please see the deck below:
Leyline's come in instead of Witchbane Orb. One of our most difficult matchups is just being hit in the face. This sures up this matchup.
Stony Silence - Replaces things like Shatter Spree, Damping Matrix, or Abrade. This is a hit on creature removal, but a boost in Artifact Hate. This also does not non-bo with something like Hazoret.
Settle the Wreckage - Helps with the 1/2 of our creature deck, and gives us an additional sweeper. A touch of a non-bo with Bridge, but a sweeper can act like a bridge removing creatures and saving face for a few turns. Only 1 suggested due to mainboard angers.
Nevermore/Runed Halo - These also replace Withcbane orb for things that hit our face, but at the same time can aid against combo like decks. If anyone watched SCG finals and Meddling Mage on turn 2 to lock out Storm, you can think of this as a same way. It turns our Chalices up to counts of about 6 or our bridges up to counts of 6 in the deck based on the angle we take and also may be the protection our bridge needs (replacing Spellskite)
Grafdigger can be lights out, so bumping up an additional one for Rest in Peace is good. The Wheel of the Sun and Moon is also considered here if your meta is graveyard heavy or delve heavy.
The flex spots could easily be Eidolon (either White/Red version), could be things like Bonfire/Terminus, could be things that attack a certain part of your meta, or could be the extra slots you need to bump your hard counters up higher. Perhaps a Batterskull for the livegain, ya never know.
The downside
The absolute beauty of running mono-color is you take 0 damage, and enemies like burn have trouble killing you. 18 used to be magical with Scapeshift, but that is no longer the case with Scapeshift going over the top, and other combo heavy decks just hitting you for 30, 40, 1000 damage. So we analyze the burn matchup and ask ourselves could we beat it. With 4 Leylines out of the board replacing our Bloodmoon's we feel good. We retain chalice, we bring in runed halo/nevermore, and we keep bridges in, maybe the sweepers. We're starting to really chew into this matchup, but the example stands, if for example blood moon is not a card you want I have 6 cards (Magus + Moon) to remove. What hard counters do I want in those matchups. Storm? Graveyard/Hexproof, Burn? Hexproof Sweeper/Gain Life, Merfolk/Elves Sweeper/Bridge/Nevermore. Coco/Chords, Grafdigger (this is why RiP is not the sole replacement) Sweepr/Moons Stay in.
So Raystack. If we are Mono-red in the main, with the "Secondary Pre-board" being some of the most hateful cards in magic (white I believe having these), can you suggest this, or is the purity of the deck to be strictly Red? In which case I am 'strictly' red before sideboard. I look to my Scapeshift BTL deck where I have a swamp in the sideboard. Instead of wasting the slot in the sideboard for 2 plains, have our corrected manabase in hand and go all out later. The math would need to be done if we need 2 Plains or if we can just rely on 1 plains and when bringing in Leyline assume most of those matchups we take out blood moon effects.
With that large paragraphs of details, what are peoples thoughts?
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Ok, the same exact thing can be said if t voice, the only difference is when facing 1/1s, the better late game to continue the lock with an empty hand is faithless.
We can all agree we need some sort of filtering but I don’t think we need things that go against the plan of being able to be stranded in our hand regardless of if we chalice or not. I’d take a magma jet over voice any day, not only am I trying to close out the game quicker, I can dig at instant speed to set up a Chandra +1 or dig for lands and sideboard cards.
I am just curious as to why you have such a hard on for t voice? The name of the game is drop locks and keep an empty hand, why are you holding cards to voice into a bigger hand that decreases your chances of emptying your hand? The longer the game goes to more chances the opponent has to get out from the lock.
We are a red prison deck, our filter options are a joke. Let's be serious here, faithless and Tvoice are by no means GOOD. They are decent. I'd rather have blue to filter, but that's not an option. Let's talk about why were are filtering...
1. Too many of the same lock pieces
2. Too many 4-drops and only a few lands
3. Discarding bad cards in certain match-ups
So what cards are downright bad in certain match ups?
Chalice - Any deck that doesn't run 1 and 2 drops that matter - Tron, e. Tron, Company decks
Generally Chalice will always be pretty good.
Moon - Mono-color aggro, two color decks - Elves, Fish, D&T, 8-rack, lantern, skred
Rare fringe decks basically.
Bridge - Control & Combo - Scapeshift, Abzan Coco, Storm, U/w Control, Grixis Control
Even those last two are debatable, meaning we almost always want a bridge.
Having two of the same lock pieces is often good insurance from single targeted removal. So is drawing two of them really that bad?
Too many lands - Behind lock pieces this isn't so bad. You will eventually draw out of it and win. This is especially true game 1.
Too few lands - Ouch. Hate drawing 2 lands, never seeing a 3rd and dying. We always want to reach 4.
If we increased the land count to 22, there is a better chance we don't get screwed, requiring less need for filters.
Let's talk about removal...
These are my only two considerations these days.
Magma Jet - Scry, burn, removal. Can be used with Chandra mana. Deals with storm combo pieces, mana dorks, abzan coco pieces, all of which must be killed.
Anger of the Gods - Board wipe + exile. So many decks don't like the exile ability, so this has replaced all other wipes for me. Sure Sweltering gives you a cycle option if rabble is doing work, but too often I don't want to pay 3 mana, and too often I am staring at creatures that will be back in two turns anyway.
I will be going to the SCG regional in San Diego November 4th to compete and put this deck on the map (paired with Ray's results). Here's what I'm taking tonight and will be taking to the regionals, barring any breakthroughs....
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Hazoret the Fervent
Spells (10)
4 Desperate Ritual
3 Magma Jet
1 Tormenting Voice
2 Anger of the Gods
4 Blood Moon
Planeswalker (6)
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Koth of the Hammer
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
Artifacts (8)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
Lands (22)
4 Gemstone Caverns
18 Mountain
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Defense Grid
2 Abrade
2 Sorcerous spyglass
3 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Torpor Orb
2 Witchbane Orb
I took some of the lessons each of us has stumbled upon and made a deck around it. Tvoice and jet for filter, jet and anger for removal, Chandra for utility, haz for finishing and 22 lands for consistency. Preach all you want about P&K or Magus, but this (at least to me) is the most straight forward approach to prison in a meta filled with eldrazi, GDS and coco. Also, Chandra, pyromaster has been amazing in testing alongside her better half. There are so many times I am behind a bridge, with Chandra and I draw a second Chandra.... at least now there's a chance we get to play both.
"Carving out your piece of the online market."
One thing I wanted to ask you about; Chandra, Pyromaster. I feel like she's halfway decent next to TOD, but alone, isn't her value a bit thin?
In the first 10 turns of the game, you'll have double Chandras about 30% of the time, And 72% of the times you do, you'll be sitting on a second Torch.
She also leaves a lot to be desired as far as ending the game. Card advantage is great, but if we ult a planeswalker, we probably want to ride it to a win. In the case of Pyromaster's ult, assuming she comes down turn 4 and ticks up every turn, she ults turn 7 at the earliest. In this scenario, assuming you still have all 3 Jets left, she'll triple Jet about 52% of the time. That's a lot of investment for marginal value. If I were going to regionals, I would probably swap it for another torch.
Top 8:
Meta Breakdown:
Here is that "Jund New S..."
4 Blooming Marsh
4 Copperline Gorge
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Gemostone Cavern
2 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Eldritch Evolution
4 Faithless Looting
4 Gristly Savage
1 Unburial Rits
4 Lothleth Troll
1 Borbonguars Enraged
3 Necroctic Ooze
4 Slyvan Caryatid
4 Spike Feeder
1 Walkiing Ballista
2 Noose Constrictor
4 Griselbrand
4 Satyr Wayfinder
1 Prognostic Spirit
4 Reclamation Sage
3 Gnaw to the Bone
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Ground Seal
2 Ray of Revelation
I post this not to say "Oh look at a deck" but to show that my local meta can be quite diverse and things can win. With that being said, I'm taking 2 Faithless Looting out of the main and putting in 2 Magus of The Moon, because local meta has a lot of greedy manabases right now, so looking to punish tomorrow!
So... soo.. janky. I hope you play this first round!
Seriously though, good luck tomorrow bro! Plunder that booty! (In honor of Ixalan) (also, giggity.)
I am engaged by Paleglove's pared down approach to Pyro Prison. Rather than debate the correct filter, he's opted to drop down on the creature count. (-4) 2 pia and kiran nalaar and 2 magus. The filters are still there for him, but the creatures are not. Let us know how the testing works out - as I'm also preparing for a Regionals Premier Event on the 4th of November.
I have been 'evolving' on my position when it comes to 2-CMC filter/removal cards. Notably: the popular Magma Jet. I won't go to (3), but have (1) in place. Also, I have (1) Abrade in the main as the meta keeps moving towards the need for a quick snipe of 3 damage or artifact kill (it replaced my single Molten Rain - agree w/ Caligula on its removal). Oh, what sad times are these when a mountain man has to resort to a pedestrian 1-for-1 removal spell in his deck.
Agree with you and others on the (3) Eidolon of the Great Revel in the sideboard. I've seen the light on how these work as multiples. It becomes creature density. After siding them in, I can rise to (20) critters in rounds 2-3. That's quite a shock for an opponent that mistook me for 'free win red' in game 1. Swarm! Swarm! Swarm!
I had a game against U-Tron where just one Eidolon did (12) damage and delivered the win. Folks at my LGS, against the backdrop of my 5-0 record against the U-Tron player, have told me that we are incorrect in believing that U-Tron is a bad matchup for us. Huh.
Had a recent tear of back-to-back 4-0 finishes at my LGS with 23 people in attendance each time. And, there isn't a soul there that doesn't expect a Turn 1 moon, so imagine the results in a large tournament amidst a sea of uninformed! This is a highlighted match that speaks to the creature density threat I reference earlier, and it illustrates how a mutavault can pivot into an early threat.
An article recently said:
"...As such, players tend to default towards casting anything in their hand before animating a creature-land, saving their creature-lands only for the super-late-game."
Well, this is how I played it out....
<<< I played Jeskai control in round 3 to a win.
The trick was that I had 1 eidolon and 2 mountains and a mutavault. In hand was a ritual and a chandra. Most would go chandra off the ritual, but that's me perhaps getting 2-for-1 countered. (He has 2 islands up)
So, I fire off the ritual. He says ok. I play a 2nd eidolon. He is utterly confused and fails to stop it with the logic knot in his hands. He knows my deck, and what he 'must' counter in order to win.
He chose poorly. (Indiana Jones reference)
I used the extra mana to animate and attack for 4. Now he's looking at 2 eidolon and an :: early attacking :: manland. Booooom.
He later lamented that he didn't stop the eidolon which housed him for life in attacks and triggers. >>>
Lesson: Swords not Shields.
Similarly, I was struggling against an Eldritch Evolution deck with Vizier/Walking Ballista combo. This miiiight be our worst matchup. And, testing revealed that it's not about turtling down behind 'answer' cards - They'll overwhelm over the top of our Lock Suite. Sure, I still bring in silver bullet cards, but I do not take out our rabblemaster anymore.
U.S. Grant said it best:
"The art of war is simple enough. Find out where your enemy is. Get at him as soon as you can. Strike him as hard as you can, and keep moving on.
In every battle there comes a time when both sides consider themselves beaten, then he who continues the attack wins.
I have never advocated war except as a means of peace."
Thanks Ray. I am curious your difficulties with Eldritch Evolution decks or similar cards like Collected Company or Chord of Calling. I am sporting x2 Grafdigger's Cage in my sideboard which is an all-star in many matches up like these. Onto my results for the day:
The Event:
So, we've incorrectly named our event. It is far from a Modern 1k, but rather a Modern Win a Box (for Modern Masters). That being said, the event brought in 16 people. We are playing 4 Rounds with a cut to Top 8. Here we go!
Deck:
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Desperate Ritual
Lock Pieces(14)
4 Blood Moon
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Magus of the Moon
Threats (14)
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh
2 Koth of the Hammer
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Slagstorm
Lands (21)
18 Mountain
3 Gemstone Caverns
1 Shattering Spree
2 Defense Grid
2 Abrade
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Damping Matrix
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spellskite
2 Eidolon of the Great Revel
Recent Modifications
The big modifications recently have been to bump up the Magus of the Moon. The other additions that I am still working with are now a +1 Chandra, Pyromaster and an already in the deck Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh. Eidolon of the Great Revel is back in the sideboard after a one FNM removal.
Match 1: Storm
We are on the play, it is an individual I have not seen at the store before, let's go!
Record: M: 1-0, G: 2-1
Match 2: Abzan
Record: M: 2-0, G: 4-2
Match 3: Tron
Karn, Tron, Thought-knot. Yep.
Record: M: 2-1, G: 5-4
At this point, there were about 5 or 6 other games that had drawn out. So the wins/losses were a bit goofy. After some intensive math we determined that if we drew we were in, so my Round 4 opponent and I drew for Top 8.
Top 8 Match 1: Titan Shift
Record: M: 2-2-1 G: 5-6
Recap:
Although we had an excellent showing, there are those times that we just don't draw the cards, and then there are the times we draw perfectly, variance happens. I'm getting a good feel for the deck though, and feel I am making in many cases the right calls. I need to fine-tune my use of Pia, or just get rid of the card. Little Chandra never showed up, but her bigger sis was a rockstar, and the Eldest Sis (TOD) was obviously a winner. More "Blood Moon" effects I believe are ideal, with the Magus pulling weight, albeit it I ran into a few bolts on the road.
Question:
Pithing Needle vs. Phyrexian Revoker vs. Sorcerous Spyglass Seems like we're all running different designs here.
I like the NEEDLE since it can stop a turn 1 Expedition Map, but it conflicts with our Chalice of the Void. Question being, 'how often do we remove the chalice when we are bringing in the NULL artifact? In other words, is there really a conflict?
I like the REVOKER, but too often I find that it is getting killed off by my sweeper effects. That said, I like the 2/1 body for reach.
I like the SPYGLASS perhaps the most, but wonder if it might be a turn late. Or, if it's lacking in creature damage/blocking. It's decidedly a shield, not spear.
Ray, I definitely think Spyglass is the way to go. Eldrazi Tron is a great example, if we name Karn while our opponent has an O. Stone in hand, or vise-versa. then we just lose the game. The added info makes it worth it in my opinion.
So what is the general gameplan against storm? Look for a fast chalice on 2, fast rabble game 1 and game 2 bring in eidolon, cage, trinisphere, and look for an early rabble?
I might get absolutely flamed and this maybe a little off topic, but do you guys have a budget alternative to Pyro Prison?
Budget is an issue for me and I was thinking Trinisphere with more of a Land Destruction type feel. Chalice and Bridge are out of the question for me. Running 4 Trinisphere seems good but unreliable on drawing all the time. Is there any cards which can fetch out artifacts in Red/colorless? Any card/deck suggestions are much appreciated. Sorry for being a scrub haha. Thanks!
A version of our deck has been highlighted by star city games. Our popularity is growing Mountainfolk and everyone hates it lol
Modern - GW Tron
Modern - Mono G Tron
Modern - RWg Burn
Commander - Yisan, The Wanderer Bard cEDH build
Commander - Edric, Spymaster of Trest - Budget/Casual list - complete
Commander - Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis - $35 Budget upgrade
Commander - Edgar Markov - $150 upgrade
Faithless Looting tripped him up against his own chalice in G1.........No aggro creaures throughout..........No utility lands for acceleration/attack.........Magus of the Moon 'card-holding' which toggled against a dangerous Bridge count for the sake of a feeble Attack......otherwise, just Planeswalkers for the win...........
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXcpXJ6v6Gw&t=291s
Here are my main issues with the deck and why I believe it won't do well in a major tourney in this current meta...
Lack of card filtering/draw: We go back and forth on faithless looting and tormenting voice, but these are bad cards regardless. Pyro Prison is forcing us into bad choices. Neither card is what we want to do, and if that leaves magma jet as our only way to dig... its pretty sad. Staring down a spell queller or mantis rider with a 2 damage spell as a red mage makes me cry inside.
Lack of life gain or stalling potential: Anger is great, but it clashes with rabblemaster. Bridges win, but sometimes all 4 are in your bottom 30 cards with no shuffle effects.
Win conditions: Chandra. Rabble. Koth. All reasonable, yet without lock pieces, all very fragile.
Interaction: Lock pieces, magma jet and angers. How do we deal with enchantments? How do we deal with huge creatures? How do we deal with Karn? Well most of those come down to the answer - pray for a lock piece.
Mana acceleration: I have had some turn 1 and turn 2 Chandras with this deck and it feels great. I have also had a thoughtsieze leave me with literally only rituals and lands. Drawing rituals after turn 3 is just a joke. The card is good for explosive starts, but bad at any other time.
I sat down, really worked on the list over and over, but without progress I became frustrated. We lose the majority of our games to ourselves. The deck is explosive, mean and ruthless for those unaware of our plans. However, I mulligan a lot with this deck. I find myself looking at bad hands often. The deck really lacks any form of consistency over 5+ rounds. Drawing the wrong half of the deck happens more than I want. Nothing feels worse than winning the first game and then losing the second two to bad draws. Finally I caved and made the decision to add another color after my playtesting group told me to stop shoehorning myself into mono-red. I went with a Sun&Moon variant that is a bit different and sure its not Pyro Prison, but its damn close.
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Siege-Gang Commander
Spells (7)
4 Lightning Helix
3 Slagstorm
Enchantments (4)
4 Blood Moon
Planeswalker (8)
2 Gideon of the Trials
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Nahiri, the Harbinger
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
Lands (23)
2 Gemstone Caverns
4 Arid Mesa
2 Mountain
7 Plains
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Rugged Prarie
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Rest in Peace
2 Defense Grid
2 Stony Silence
2 Molten Rain
2 Settle the Wreckage
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
I'm not posting this to lead anyone astray, or cause arguments, just letting everyone know where I'm going and what I'm playing.
Here's what white does for us...
Filter: Nahiri, scry lands, fetch lands - Finally we can use our lands for more than just mana. Nahiri is a beast. She offers exiled removal and card selection.
Removal: Slagstorm, Helix, Nahiri - Removal that does not clash with our threats is always a plus. Lifegain allows us to not be rushing towards a lock pieces every game.
Threats: All the walkers, Rabble, Siegegang - Back on that siege-gang train. This guy is a beast, and so is Gideon. A turn 2 Gideon feels unbeatable versus certain decks.
Sidebaord: Leylines, RiP, Stony, Settle - I mean why play white? The sideboard. Just look at how none of these clash with our game plan.
Interesting things to note: layline offers us 4 new lock pieces. Siege-gang can be tutored with Nahiri to make 6 gobos. We have scry lands for turn 1 plays. We have bolt again - with lifegain. We can throw away lock pieces with Nahiri. We have settle the wreckage for blow-outs that don't affect our gobos. The look on an elves player's face when he pumped his army and attacked into 3 open mana, then I SSG into settle for the immediate win.
This color clears up a lot of issues. No longer is valakut or Storm even a real deck against us with layline. Dredge becomes a joke. Affinity also becomes a push-over. We now have board-wipes for heavy aggro and enchantments no longer hose us. Gideon clears up the ad nauseam match-up and offers a 5-6 rabblemaster. Finally we get to upgrade P&K to Siege-gang since he can be brought out manually or through our angry lithomancer while aiding active rabbles.
I'm not saying everyone just jump ship, but its important to think outside the box when deck building. Sticking to one color may be causing us to lose games that we should be winning. Close-minded rebukes will only leads to missed opportunities. At the core of this deck, pyro prison is still alive and well. Rabble will still do what it does in pyro prison, so will the lock pieces and chrandra, the main difference is we traded explosive starts for consistent finishes. We traded bad red cards for good boros options. White simply offers more.
Also, the new moon change really helps this deck come November.
I will check in on you all from time to time, but this is likely the last decklist I will post. Really learned a lot here and had a great time.
Love you all.
"Carving out your piece of the online market."
I never had a problem with storm but it seems like I am the only one playing 3 maindeck Abrades. Killing Baral on the spot is crucial! Chalice on 1 gives you time, on 2 is a winner. Apart from that you might be able to drop a fast Rabblemaster or a well placed Moon effect and snatch the win that way. After SB depending what yours look like - Eidolon, Trinisphere, Cage, Orb etc.
So, best wishes to Paleglove. We've enjoyed your spirited contributions - jus' sayin' let's be transparent about your record of play and where it led you.
I maintain that W/R Prison does not offer the consistency and pressure that you claim, but that is not for us to debate here. Good luck on that side of the fence. Again, I am not asking, nor wish to receive, a reply to this post. It would serve little purpose. We've said our opinions --- on to brighter horizons!
Answer: we start strong, locking them down for turn after turn, and fail to find a threat before they find an answer.
Solution(?): an oldie but goodie! A card that was around since the early days, Crystal Ball. In the scenario I've described above, I can't find a better card to get us there.. I'm going to test it out as a 2-of. Is it going to be a problem at the 3-drop spot? Stay tuned, mountainfolk!
lost to Esper Geist and Affinity yesterday got me thinking of a crazy idea - will test it on Wednesday and post the results.
Hey Paleglover, I would certainly like to know how your deck does, best of luck, may you find the red cards win it and the white cards don't ;). I do believe though I may have a 'happy medium' and will see what Raystack thinks about a most recent iteration of the deck. That being said I would like to address something in Paleglover's list that has me thinking he is not doing the best things, and hopefully Paleglover can let us know.
So where does that bring Pyro Prison?
I'd be curious but I believe we have a balance here that I'd like to propose to our good ole creator Raystack. Please see the deck below:
Pyro Prison Pre-board Double Board
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Desperate Ritual
Lock Pieces(14)
4 Blood Moon
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Magus of the Moon
Threats (14)
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh
2 Koth of the Hammer
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Slagstorm
Lands (21)
8 Mountain
2 Plains
3 Gemstone Caverns
2 Rugged Prairie
2 Sacred Foundry
4 Arid Mesa
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Stony Silence
1 Shattering Spree
1 Settle the Wreckage
2 Nevermore (Or) Runed Halo
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Rest in Peace
2 (Flex Spot)
The Sideboard Changes
The downside
The absolute beauty of running mono-color is you take 0 damage, and enemies like burn have trouble killing you. 18 used to be magical with Scapeshift, but that is no longer the case with Scapeshift going over the top, and other combo heavy decks just hitting you for 30, 40, 1000 damage. So we analyze the burn matchup and ask ourselves could we beat it. With 4 Leylines out of the board replacing our Bloodmoon's we feel good. We retain chalice, we bring in runed halo/nevermore, and we keep bridges in, maybe the sweepers. We're starting to really chew into this matchup, but the example stands, if for example blood moon is not a card you want I have 6 cards (Magus + Moon) to remove. What hard counters do I want in those matchups. Storm? Graveyard/Hexproof, Burn? Hexproof Sweeper/Gain Life, Merfolk/Elves Sweeper/Bridge/Nevermore. Coco/Chords, Grafdigger (this is why RiP is not the sole replacement) Sweepr/Moons Stay in.
So Raystack. If we are Mono-red in the main, with the "Secondary Pre-board" being some of the most hateful cards in magic (white I believe having these), can you suggest this, or is the purity of the deck to be strictly Red? In which case I am 'strictly' red before sideboard. I look to my Scapeshift BTL deck where I have a swamp in the sideboard. Instead of wasting the slot in the sideboard for 2 plains, have our corrected manabase in hand and go all out later. The math would need to be done if we need 2 Plains or if we can just rely on 1 plains and when bringing in Leyline assume most of those matchups we take out blood moon effects.
With that large paragraphs of details, what are peoples thoughts?