I like the idea and think it's worth testing but my general feeling is that I'd rather be attacking with a copter and drawing that way then drawing a bad card on turn 4 and possibly a good card on turn 5.
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Modern Decks Built U Mono U Tron WR Boros Burn with one Stomping Ground UR Storm C Eldrazi Powder G Mono Green Tron
Back from 16 player trial to rome games. 2:0 tron, 2:1 jund, 1:2 jund, 2:0 ur breach. Means place 3... Top 4 games after them i could not play, because no time, so i concede. 6 booster and 5 Euro coupon was enough. My only lost to jund feels Bad, because it is such a easy match normaly, but bbe can be hard now
The matchup between Jim Davis' Jeskai Control and Jonathan Job's Colorless Eldrazi at SCG Dallas Open was brutal to watch. He could have benefited from Cavern of Souls but the deck made into Day 2 without it. Is there a solid argument to include it in Jordan Boisvert's original deck list? What would be removed? Scavenger Grounds are too good in the meta.
Theemgee, on draw allways gemstone number 4 in and another Land out like cavern of soul vs. Tron or jund and ghost quarter vs. Breach. If i start, allways out 1 gemstone (play 24 lands). Against jund my 1 ratchet out and 1 spatial in, against tron pithing needle and surgical (out relics). Breach is easy with 4 relic and 4 tectonic edge (in surgical)
Put out chalice and SSG, bring in relic and more creatures. Change inkmoth with tectonic edge... 3-4 pages bevire this it is a list oft me beeing first some Weeks ago in a 29 player game
The matchup between Jim Davis' Jeskai Control and Jonathan Job's Colorless Eldrazi at SCG Dallas Open was brutal to watch. He could have benefited from Cavern of Souls but the deck made into Day 2 without it. Is there a solid argument to include it in Jordan Boisvert's original deck list? What would be removed? Scavenger Grounds are too good in the meta.
Brutal because he lost by over-committing into Verdict. He has the game if he just swings with Mutavault and hangs back with the second Scourge. Protection from counterspells didn't "matter" until about 10 turns after the game had been functionally lost. Cavern is a crutch in this deck because the Jeskai decks are already so hard to lose to.
That said, I think there's an argument to be made for cutting the second Sea Gate. I'm just not sure that we want another Vault or something else. Those cards all seem better than Cavern though. Probably a third Grounds is the best replacement.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
No one talking about new karn? ... good value walker that could work in our Grindy post board package... however it doesn’t fill a void really unfortunately.
I think Tec edge is also a good land in that slot to consider
I'm in favor of cutting a second sea gate. I finally have the deck built online and I'm keeping a bunch of stats on it, including total sea gate activations, and they don't happen often. In paper I run one cavern over the second wreckage. I'd be open to the tec edge, though I haven't had to be too aggressive with land hate lately. Part of me wants to run an Endless Sands but I know that it's not good.
I am also finding that there is a learning curve to MTGO that has hurt me some.
Here's a question:
You're up against Grishoalbrand.
They're on 3 lands (2 r/b 1 swamp)nothing else board
On board, you have
chalice on one
relic
powder
mimic
lands to cast anything
You have 2 TKS in hand, and lethal if you cast them both back to back.
I took this deck for another test run at my local FNM and went 3-1 again with it. I told myself if that night went well that I was gonna take it to the open in Dallas or classic on Sunday but some family plans came up so I had to miss it. Friday night I did end up beating Burn, boggles and humans that night but I did lose to R/G eldrazi. That deck stomped me and I never had a chance, but I will say my deck was drawing really bad during this games. I always thought obligator was a great card and I even gave it a shot in this deck by changing a few of the lands but I don't think the timing was right.
I will say that all night people kept stopping by my table and watching the deck do its magic. I even had a few people say that they wish they could take the deck to the open but couldn't because of the gemstone cavern price spike and that card was all bought out in the Dallas area.
my opinion about adding one cavern of souls is not worth it. I think I would rather take a land tool box over over one cavern. I think that card needs to have multiples in a deck to make it worth our while. Between all the serum powders and deck filtering, a 1 of in this deck is not worth it. I use sea gate wreckage all the time and my favorite card is grounds because I can put my eternal scourges back in exile to get them back on the field or pump a mimic. That land trick is awesome and always catches my opponent off guard when I do that.
@Yord
Good question. I assume their life total is 9-12 (Mimic swings for 4 this turn, next turn, Mimic and TKS swing for 8), but the actual number might color my decision.
My first instinct is to try and figure out what I can lose to. Top deck Griselbrand scares me because they have Through the Breach mana between lands and 2x SSG. So you could take TTB. There is no other immediate way they win.
You could take Bontu's Last Reckoning so that your board does not get wiped and they don't get to see an extra card, but then you lose to top deck creature. However, BLR leaves them tapped and more or less skipping their next turn, and they can't cast anything relevant with 2 SSG. Not really the worst.
Faithless Looting can't be cast (Chalice) and you have RoP up anyway.
SSG is only useful as a chump or if you don't take Breach. Besides, they can Ritual and Splice Breach onto it (not sure if I am saying that correctly) and have 4 mana, so taking SSG doesn't stop Breach.
Taking Ritual doesn't stop Breach top deck into a win either.
Therefore.... Bontu or Breach, IMO. Force them to have the top deck to win on the next turn or take away their shot at winning off of a top deck, but give them an extra card and 2 extra turns to find an answer (and answer that has to be another Breach + Creature. I am a defensive player, so....
Depends on what they have in their graveyard, right? But I think you take Breach cause they have less of a chance of drawing Goryos Vengeance than a creature.
I think it depends more on what else is in your hand. If they cast a Bontu's and you don't have much gas they are going to see another 3-4 cards, at least, before you can regain board control, and a Shoal would probably put the game out of reach.
If you have mana to activate Relic than you don't need to worry about Goryo's, so leaving them with a Breach their only outs are Wurm or Griselbrand with one look. I'd probably take Bontu's
What does everyone think of an all is dust in the sb?
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Modern:UBRDeath's ShadowUBR, CEldrazi StompyC,WUBRGSliversWUBRG, UBRGTraverse ShadowUBRG,RUGtempo pileRUG Pauper:UdelverU they slaughtered my deck i miss gush and daze..
I've wondered for the last couple days if this deck wouldn't be helped by having an O-naginata or two in the 75. Most if not all the creatures can equip it and it helps Scourge recursions.
I think it depends more on what else is in your hand. If they cast a Bontu's and you don't have much gas they are going to see another 3-4 cards, at least, before you can regain board control, and a Shoal would probably put the game out of reach.
If you have mana to activate Relic than you don't need to worry about Goryo's, so leaving them with a Breach their only outs are Wurm or Griselbrand with one look. I'd probably take Bontu's
I don't think this is a particularly close call. It's just about denying your opponent outs. You take Bontu's and force them to topdeck a fatty next turn. Otherwise, Bontu nets them multiple turns to draw into what they need, and they could hit other speedbumps that buy them even more time (i.e. Bontu's or a Push).
Even if they draw a removal spell so they don't die the following turn, that means our next TKS will take Breach and leave them with no outs.
I've wondered for the last couple days if this deck wouldn't be helped by having an O-naginata or two in the 75. Most if not all the creatures can equip it and it helps Scourge recursions.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Nice updates! Thanks for putting the work in. I'm eagerly awaiting my paper orders so I can bring this to a game night this weekend. I'm still kind of surprised more people haven't picked up on this deck.
I feel like you need to change your analysis of cavern of souls in the primer.
The card definitely has value, which you are dismissing offhand. If you're going to take this line it at least deserves a more robust rationale for your dismissal.
Also I don't think it's fair to have your short analysis of the card as a way to bash other players which is what you chose to do.
The reason why I bring it back up is because tempo/control decks in modern are perhaps more widely played than before in the format as a whole, and cards like ceremonious rejection exist. It's entirely feasible in your average control matchup to have your four and five-drops countered as you curve out, leaving both you and your opponent staring each other down with maybe five mana. At this point, your opponent lands a jace, a geist, breaches an emrakul, drops a Gideon or whatever who knows, and suddenly that cavern could have made all the difference.
As someone who's interested in the deck and wishes to get some success with it, I can't believe that a card we can include so easily and has such upside can be so readily dismissed and then deflected onto 'bad players not playing around sweepers'.
At present, based on my experience playing eldrazi decks in general (and sideboarding them in with Tron as well) I've found a singleton cavern to be worthwhile, and looking st the primer I'm not really convinced to think any other way. It just reads as 'if you think it's good, you can't play the deck' which is less than helpful.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
I feel like you need to change your analysis of cavern of souls in the primer.
The card definitely has value, which you are dismissing offhand. If you're going to take this line it at least deserves a more robust rationale for your dismissal.
Also I don't think it's fair to have your short analysis of the card as a way to bash other players which is what you chose to do.
The reason why I bring it back up is because tempo/control decks in modern are perhaps more widely played than before in the format as a whole, and cards like ceremonious rejection exist. It's entirely feasible in your average control matchup to have your four and five-drops countered as you curve out, leaving both you and your opponent staring each other down with maybe five mana. At this point, your opponent lands a jace, a geist, breaches an emrakul, drops a Gideon or whatever who knows, and suddenly that cavern could have made all the difference.
As someone who's interested in the deck and wishes to get some success with it, I can't believe that a card we can include so easily and has such upside can be so readily dismissed and then deflected onto 'bad players not playing around sweepers'.
At present, based on my experience playing eldrazi decks in general (and sideboarding them in with Tron as well) I've found a singleton cavern to be worthwhile, and looking st the primer I'm not really convinced to think any other way. It just reads as 'if you think it's good, you can't play the deck' which is less than helpful.
The thing is, I feel that it has no upside. Not sure how many reps you have with the deck, but I have been playing CES for 2 years, and in my experience Cavern is utterly superfluous (I've tried it too, of course). I mentioned it at all so that primer readers know it's an option, but they also have a right to know the opinion of the deck's inventor and most dedicated grinder. I'm not going to "change my analysis" to something I have found to be untrue. IMO if you are losing to counterspells you need to learn how to mulligan against these decks and pace your threats better.
It's not "if you think it's good, you can't play the deck." It's "if you think it's good, run it, but you deserve to know that I don't, and with practice, I seriously doubt your opinion will remain unchanged." There's a guy in here who runs 4 Relic mainboard over Chalice on purpose. I think that's totally wrong in this metagame, too, but people can play what they like and I would never tell them not to. I'll just share my honest experience. Do what you like with it!
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
This guy made now 14 time in a row Place 1-3 in tournaments. Sure they are small between 8 - 60 players, but i never was place 4 or more since i play this deck with relic Main. You can do this and it is not garbage or unplayable Like some of us think...by the way cavern 2 Main i use and sometimes + 1 in side. I am happy with Them and i dont need playing around. Smash my creatures each turn brutal on their face. You can play what you want
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-1 Reshaper
-1 Smugglers Copter
+2 Karn, Scion of Urza
?????????????....?
U Mono U Tron
WR Boros Burn with one Stomping Ground
UR Storm
C Eldrazi Powder
G Mono Green Tron
Modern
C Colorless Eldrazi Stompy C
WUGC Bant Eldrazi CGUW
WBG Doran Formation GBW
Legacy
C Eldrazi Stompy C
Multiplayer Commander
GR Omnath, Locus of Rage RG
WU Brago, King Eternal UW
BG Slimefoot, the Stowaway GB
Here are the Twitch links to Jonathan's plays:
Day 1 (vs Burn):
http://www.twitch.tv/scgtour/v/237272805?sr=a&t=1270s
Day 2 (vs Jeskai Control):
http://www.twitch.tv/scgtour/v/237640729?sr=a&t=1241s
Modern
C Colorless Eldrazi Stompy C
WUGC Bant Eldrazi CGUW
WBG Doran Formation GBW
Legacy
C Eldrazi Stompy C
Multiplayer Commander
GR Omnath, Locus of Rage RG
WU Brago, King Eternal UW
BG Slimefoot, the Stowaway GB
Modern
C Colorless Eldrazi Stompy C
WUGC Bant Eldrazi CGUW
WBG Doran Formation GBW
Legacy
C Eldrazi Stompy C
Multiplayer Commander
GR Omnath, Locus of Rage RG
WU Brago, King Eternal UW
BG Slimefoot, the Stowaway GB
Cavern is such a beating
That said, I think there's an argument to be made for cutting the second Sea Gate. I'm just not sure that we want another Vault or something else. Those cards all seem better than Cavern though. Probably a third Grounds is the best replacement.
Here's my tournament report from the Classic for those interested: http://modernnexus.com/gutting-worcester-colorless-eldrazi-stompy/
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I think Tec edge is also a good land in that slot to consider
I am also finding that there is a learning curve to MTGO that has hurt me some.
Here's a question:
You're up against Grishoalbrand.
They're on 3 lands (2 r/b 1 swamp)nothing else board
On board, you have
You have 2 TKS in hand, and lethal if you cast them both back to back.
You cast TKS and see a hand of:
Bontus Last Reckoning
Simian Spirit Guide
Simian Spirit Guide
Desperate Ritual
Faithless Looting
Through the Breach
What do you take and why?
U Mono U Tron
WR Boros Burn with one Stomping Ground
UR Storm
C Eldrazi Powder
G Mono Green Tron
I will say that all night people kept stopping by my table and watching the deck do its magic. I even had a few people say that they wish they could take the deck to the open but couldn't because of the gemstone cavern price spike and that card was all bought out in the Dallas area.
my opinion about adding one cavern of souls is not worth it. I think I would rather take a land tool box over over one cavern. I think that card needs to have multiples in a deck to make it worth our while. Between all the serum powders and deck filtering, a 1 of in this deck is not worth it. I use sea gate wreckage all the time and my favorite card is grounds because I can put my eternal scourges back in exile to get them back on the field or pump a mimic. That land trick is awesome and always catches my opponent off guard when I do that.
Good question. I assume their life total is 9-12 (Mimic swings for 4 this turn, next turn, Mimic and TKS swing for 8), but the actual number might color my decision.
My first instinct is to try and figure out what I can lose to. Top deck Griselbrand scares me because they have Through the Breach mana between lands and 2x SSG. So you could take TTB. There is no other immediate way they win.
You could take Bontu's Last Reckoning so that your board does not get wiped and they don't get to see an extra card, but then you lose to top deck creature. However, BLR leaves them tapped and more or less skipping their next turn, and they can't cast anything relevant with 2 SSG. Not really the worst.
Faithless Looting can't be cast (Chalice) and you have RoP up anyway.
SSG is only useful as a chump or if you don't take Breach. Besides, they can Ritual and Splice Breach onto it (not sure if I am saying that correctly) and have 4 mana, so taking SSG doesn't stop Breach.
Taking Ritual doesn't stop Breach top deck into a win either.
Therefore.... Bontu or Breach, IMO. Force them to have the top deck to win on the next turn or take away their shot at winning off of a top deck, but give them an extra card and 2 extra turns to find an answer (and answer that has to be another Breach + Creature. I am a defensive player, so....
I take Breach.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
If you have mana to activate Relic than you don't need to worry about Goryo's, so leaving them with a Breach their only outs are Wurm or Griselbrand with one look. I'd probably take Bontu's
Pauper: UdelverUthey slaughtered my deck i miss gush and daze..Turn 6 Karn > Turn 2 Phage
Even if they draw a removal spell so they don't die the following turn, that means our next TKS will take Breach and leave them with no outs. See Primer. See Primer.
Also, major Primer update. Enjoy!
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Also I agreed with Jordans analysis and took the reckoning. In this instance they topped a griselbrand and went off, but I still feel it was right.
U Mono U Tron
WR Boros Burn with one Stomping Ground
UR Storm
C Eldrazi Powder
G Mono Green Tron
I feel like you need to change your analysis of cavern of souls in the primer.
The card definitely has value, which you are dismissing offhand. If you're going to take this line it at least deserves a more robust rationale for your dismissal.
Also I don't think it's fair to have your short analysis of the card as a way to bash other players which is what you chose to do.
The reason why I bring it back up is because tempo/control decks in modern are perhaps more widely played than before in the format as a whole, and cards like ceremonious rejection exist. It's entirely feasible in your average control matchup to have your four and five-drops countered as you curve out, leaving both you and your opponent staring each other down with maybe five mana. At this point, your opponent lands a jace, a geist, breaches an emrakul, drops a Gideon or whatever who knows, and suddenly that cavern could have made all the difference.
As someone who's interested in the deck and wishes to get some success with it, I can't believe that a card we can include so easily and has such upside can be so readily dismissed and then deflected onto 'bad players not playing around sweepers'.
At present, based on my experience playing eldrazi decks in general (and sideboarding them in with Tron as well) I've found a singleton cavern to be worthwhile, and looking st the primer I'm not really convinced to think any other way. It just reads as 'if you think it's good, you can't play the deck' which is less than helpful.
It's not "if you think it's good, you can't play the deck." It's "if you think it's good, run it, but you deserve to know that I don't, and with practice, I seriously doubt your opinion will remain unchanged." There's a guy in here who runs 4 Relic mainboard over Chalice on purpose. I think that's totally wrong in this metagame, too, but people can play what they like and I would never tell them not to. I'll just share my honest experience. Do what you like with it!
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy