I have definitely missed Vault after cutting it, but my experiences with my current list have sold me on 4x Traverse the Ulvenwald. It is without question the most absurd, powerful card in my list. Whatever 75 I was playing in these past months have been missing out. Wish I had 4x at GPLA /sadface
Anyway, I'd been testing with it in the past week and it always felt very solid in consistency and super powerful when it was on; I never felt like I was playing it quite optimally though (for example, I missed a lethal attack in fetching an Angel of Serenity instead of Gavony Township; I had to content myself with the Angel killing my opponent the next turn /shedstear). So lately, I've just been goldfishing to better understand the lines of play available. And I have to say, the sheer number of options that have become available through Traverse became migraine inducing. It's like I'm trying to pilot a devil's combination of Lantern, Pod, and Amulet Bloom.
Traverse is so flexible, but I think it would take players like Owen Turtenwald to play my list even close to optimally: Between deciding to get a basic land turn one to ensure I curve out, saving it for after a Wayfinder/Salvage (I hit delirium consistently turn 3/4, turn 2/3 if I had a dork), and then deciding how to plan the game out once Delirium is active, there are just so many more lines of play. Like finding Witness and then rebuying the Traverse to grab an Angel. Or maybe if I have an Angel in hand and a Sprawl'ed forest, grab an Arbor Elf for turn 4/5 Angel, or Gavony so the Spirits can hold the fort and you hit land drops until you cast your Angel. Fetching Sin Collector against a Uxx Control deck. Or I had a Rhino turn 3 and spent my turn 4 going Traverse>Rhino, E-Wit>Traverse, Traverse>Rhino so I can communicate: "Hey bud. I'm holding two more Rhinos." KTK standard PTSD, too soon? Traverse just feels so absurd (and headachey, which is a good sign?) mid-late game.
And if there's graveyard hate I can see bringing in sb Vault to go up a bit on land count and still playing a "fair" game.
As for Decimator v Craterhoof, both have their merits. If it came down to only wanting the pump effect, I'd want Craterhoof (which is what I intended to communicate), but I can see situations where Decimator is far superior.
Also, after trying out Traverse and hearing that Dredge and Gifts is more powerful? I'd have to flatly disagree there. Dredge, perhaps far faster and slips under us, maybe. But I don't think there's a more powerful gy card in modern.
I think I should've pointed out that most of my testing is against my buddy who plays B/W eldrazi and thus 4 relic of progenitus in the main so when I say I don't want to over commit to the graveyard I am definitely biased from this matchup.
My point on gifts/dredge is more to say that their strategy totally relies on the GY but that they usually can win the game a couple turns after getting their strategy online (often even winning the same turn) - but graveyard hate completely destroys their plan, whereas with our deck even a delerium Traverse only sets up most of the best cards in the matchup which while being absurdly strong (especially if it's a silver bullet) might not be able to win the game on its own. That being said we are much more resilient to grave hate as we can still hardcast our big threats. I'm not disagreeing with the power of Traverse itself, I just think to hinge on that strategy weakens our deck to graveyard hate. That being said, I think I will try dumping a land so that I can go up to 3 or 4 Traverse because I'm seeing the absurd power you're talking about (ILL NEVER DROP VAULT). I think we could even look to the sideboard for more bullet creatures instead.
One thing I think we should drop Grim Flayers if we are doing the traverse plan because they don't reliably get cards in the yard and can sometimes go 1 for 1 when satyr does the opposite.
LOL I feel the Khans flashbacks my friends always get those when I drop that stingy rhino. Also agree with the playmaking with Traverse it really opens up the deck to some sweet lines. I don't think I'll cut all of my KOTR's though because instant speed is awesome and I still think they're like better goyf's in our list.
Constantly changing the sideboard. Also switching between mulch, grisly salvage and grapple with the past. Im going to try a different build this week due to an expected influx of dredge and graveyard hate.
I see what you mean, Loneger; I was just thinking Traverse might get the ban hammer someday if people realize Delirium is pretty easy to set up in modern and ever get to testing it. Thus the most powerful "graveyard" related card. But not exactly a graveyard strategy in its aim, just its setup. I could see playing a single KotR with our Traverses but I've been about to race decks like Tron and RG Titanshift only because I had the early Goyf or two. I realized even though he might not be big if we drop him early, he's a powerful investment - even if he dies to bolt or something. Because I'd love to play bolt decks all day (aside from burn). There really are so many more ways to build this now with Traverse (as if we didn't already have options), I have trouble seeing any kind of optimal list. Perhaps that's a good thing, and that's what testing helps with. And yeah, if you mostly test against BW Eldrazi with maindeck Relics, you're going to get an undue predisposition against GY hate.
As for your list, Eisenbaer, I definitely think you want some number of Satyr Wayfinders in there, since they hit as a creature for Sidisi and get pumped through Norn, all the while furthering your strategy of filling the graveyard and hitting land drops. I would also caution against so many big drops as they can lead to clunky hands, but I'm sure it also means you can ramp them out or reanimate them much more often. Whatever works for you.
Yeah honestly I think you've got me on board for Traverse, I'm gonna throw the full 4 in for now.
I don't see a huge difference between goyf and KOTR because 8/10 games I find having at least one ramping spell which means they come out at the same time and KOTR gets bigger and has his activated ability to boot (the pricetag doesn't help but I'm trying to put that aside for discussion xD). What advantages do you find in goyf? I've actually kept bolt highly in my mind when brewing this deck, and we really have no boltable threats which is super nice.
Definately feel the variations too, allows for us to adapt to meta and makes brewing/testing really fun. I hope you don't mind humoring my suggestions, I've only recently moved out of tabletop and my lack of experience probably shows.
Oh yeah, if cost is an issue, KotR and Grim Flayer are two excellent replacements for Goyf. Both have been very good, although I've played with KotR extensively more than Flayer. There's also the tech way of hitting Delirium by sac'ing your Utopia Sprawl land, which is sometimes relevant. For example, float the mana, sac the Sprawl land for a tech land like Gavony, and play Traverse to get an Angel. But connecting with Flayer always feels good as well.
And you have great input for your so called "lack of experience;" it has been very valuable in testing and brewing.
Note about hitting Delirium: I noticed we are very consistent in hitting early Delirium if we have about 20 land, 20 creatures, and the rest as some split of Instant/Sorcery/Planeswalker/Artifact/Enchantment/Tribal.
Three for three GPT top 8s with Abzan Reanimator (This time at Plus EV Games in Orange)
Didn't get to the finals this time around because I'm not going to GP Dallas so I conceded to my QF opponent.
R1 0-2 Naya Titanshift, probably one of my tougher match ups
R2 2-0 Sultai Delver
R3 2-0 Jund (heheheheheh)
R4 2-0 Dredge, all that playtesting with Dredge really helped me maneuver to victory
R5 2-1 Ad Nauseam, was paired down and opponent wouldn't draw
Second place going into top 8, conceded in QF to RG LD after winning game 1 (gotta make em sweat a bit)
Has anyone considered Eldritch Evolution in this list? Collective Brutality also seems like a great way to bin your fatties (or unburial rites, lingering souls, etc.) while taking their combo pieces. Seems like just what this deck needs against combo decks, actually.
I've tested Eldritch Evolution and haven't quite liked it as much as Traverse the Ulvenwald; also playing 2 Collective Brutality but we're more proactive than other midrange decks so I keep it in the side rather than dilute the game plan.
For what it's worth, I'm a real big fan and would love to see more gameplay. Junk rites is one of my favorite decks of all time and after playing this version, I feel and think you are are on to something.
I am play testing all versions and would love to see more progress. At this moment, I couldn't agree more that the traverse's are spot on. Though, the grim flayer to me makes sense it's too "meta". I don't know yet of a real traditional junk rites build other than the streamline version (when it was played in atandard) but I am extremely interested and will be following up after more play testing.
That being said, success in matches are very real against jund, eapicailly with a playset of rhinos. Though, a bit tougher against rack discard (mostly depending on draws).
Hey, so I've been tweaking and trying different things with the deck for a while and just haven't posted until now because I didn't want to bother unless I had something to offer. I've been playing around with the creature suite and taking the deck in different directions to see what felt better, and right now I've been having the most success with this:
4 Arbor Elf
4 Siege Rhino
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Angel of Serenity
1 Thragtusk
1 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Lingering Souls
3 Unburial Rites
4 Grisly Salvage
4 Grapple with the Past
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Path to Exile
There are definitely some flex spots in the list. This is a very polar version of the deck, in that you have extremely high-impact cards against a great many decks out here, but you also have to hit what you need against some of them. With the right draws, you can go straight aggro, curving into early Finks, Rhino, and even Swagtusk under optimal conditions and draws, however the primary game plan is still there, and indeed focuses more on the reanimation packagethan most of the previous lists on this thread.
Some things I've noted:
-You can go back and forth between either Liliana of the Veil and the Last Hope, as they both have their matchups that they excel in. I prefer this build with the Last Hope in the sideboard simply because LOTV lets you discard any uncastable fatties in your hand to the graveyard to play later as well as being never actually bad against anything, only mediocre in my experience.
-Finks is in the main to handle Burn and other aggressive matchups, but I've found myself waffling back and forth between them and Damnation/Wrath of God as well as Reclamation Sages and any other utility cards that have struck me. This is definitely your two obvious flex spots in the deck that you get to account for your metagame and decide what to put here.
-I always felt like I was playing from behind with other versions of the deck, which wouldn't allow me to stumble at all, or else I died, however with this version, I have yet to come across a matchup where I didn't feel like I had a fighting chance as long as I identified the line and it panned out. It's rougher, as the main has so little interaction aside from Path to Exile, but our fat white bullets are so high impact that they can just get you to a board position where if you hit them, they and/or our aggro fatties just win us the game.
-I definitely think Grapple with the Past is better than Satyr Wayfinder, which is usually just a horrible feeling after turn 3 or 4, because we get to re-buy creatures and lands that have since been binned that can help us take over a game later on, to include townships that I've had blown up and got back and then beat down with spirits, et al. Also relevant against land destruction, as well as getting basics back against Blood Moon decks after the fact and keeping fixed mana.
-Kind of an add-on to the last one, I'm liking the move away from Utopia Sprawl. It obviously and definitely gave us a more explosive early game, but we were also kind of locked into hoping something good came along in that time to make it worth it. Other problems with them were: a)again, land destruction is even worse for us, two-for-one-ing us (or worse sometimes), b)this creates a really murky early game plan for us. If we have Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl, mill card, if you do the math, we're not actually gaining momentum, as we still aren't reanimating until turn 3 at the earliest anyway, which we could do with just Arbor Elf on the board. The impact of the additional ramp spells are, in my findings and opinion, negligible enough that I don't think they are worth it, thus losing out on four slots we can use for higher-impact cards.
-Finally, with this build, I believe you can actually flex a land for a Traverse the Ulvenwald, but it's really up to you. I definitely like the card and what it offers, but I think it's just a matter of personal preference. Right now I am really liking having mana consistency over the toolbox tutor. Additionally, without the four Sprawls, we are less likely to hit delirium without a little more effort.
At this point, the only match-ups I see as a real problem are fast combo decks (for which I play 3 Lost Legacy in the sideboard), Tron (not sure what we can really do about it), and hyper aggro and burn decks can get rough if we don't draw our life-gain creatures. As you can see, we still have ways of getting ahead of these and even stonewalling them with the creature suite that we have, but it's more hit-or miss, where if we miss, we're most likely dead, but if we hit, we hit big, and it's usually a cakewalk after that. Lastly, decks like Naya Titanshift and Ponza become basically a joke if we hit our Iona and put her in play, so that matchup is better now
That's all I got for now. Feel free to ask me about anything else with the deck. I like the deck and where it's going. I'm a life-long Jund/Abzan Midrange player, and this deck is a lot of fun.
Excluding everything else, your Arbor Elf should be Birds of Paradise if you don't have Utopia Sprawl. I had the same issue with Sprawl/Elf, I felt like I got blown out really hard by a Ghost Quarter on any of the first few turns. I wasn't really able to capitalize on the fast mana early enough to have snagged value before the LD.
I don't really like how dependent your list is on Iona/Elesh Norn. You have the same/more chance of drawing your huge dudes than you do of drawing Finks/EWit/Thragtusk. You definitely said up front that it's pretty all in on reanimation to win, but that's not a place I want to be in a format trying desperately to combat Dredge. I liked previous versions because they continue to get value with their midrange-y game and Angel of Serenity even through grave hate. With the density of midrange-y cards in this list you're only going to be on that gameplan if you happen to draw correctly, you can't really count on it.
That said, if it's working for you keep at it. I'd love to know you get through sideboard cards or people that combo faster than you/with interaction (like Scapeshift, Ad Naus, Storm, etc).
getting the chance to play the other night at MTG Card Market (featured match game play on 11/30/16, around 58 mins)the deck is great fun. I am missing a few fetches and will look to get that squared.
current list:
4 Arbor Elf
1 Restoration Angel
1 Thragtusk
2 Angel of Serenity
3 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Siege Rhino
1 Shriekmaw
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Path to Exile
4 Grisly Salvage
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
3 Unburial Rites
4 Lingering Souls
4 Utopia Sprawl
won first round against Jund, Won second round to Jeskai kiki, round 3 lost terribly to Tron (lessons learned in side boarding) and then lost to infect found 4.
Traverse was amazing when deliurium was on, otherwise searching for basics is only suboptimal, same went for the arbor elf and sprawl combo. it two of the three pieces were missing it was not quite helpful.
though, i will be looking to tweak so that it's possibly less reliant of the arbor elf sprawl combo. grisly at 4 was more sufficient than the 4th wayfinder. and Rhino at 4 was just great, hitting rhino was always good.
How did you find the Traverses in your list? I figure the Sprawls help turn Delirium on, but I'm worried about devoting 8 slots to Arbor Elf and Utopia Sprawl as I think the way to build it is more like a value shell with a really good reanimation payoff that can take it home.
I ran a very suboptimal list today and went 2-2 at my LGS today.
Beat Jund (winning through turn 0 Leyline of the Void games 2 and 3) and Blood Moon Jund because Lingering Souls is a house and Rhino into Rhino is always great. I Resto'ed a Rhino for lethal in my last match to win. Lost to B/W Eldrazi Taxes and Bant Company.
I found myself hoping for more removal quite a bit and that was already packing 3 forms and 7 cards of maindeck removal. Might cut 1 Angel of Serenity for another Collective Brutality, as I found myself stuck with an uncastable fatty way too many times or having Angel of Serenity with the nonbo of only having spirit tokens in play. And almost all of the games I lost, could have been salvaged with a more aggressive curve or a way to interact. I had 4 Grapple with the Past in place of the Satyr Wayfinders and I really liked them. They helped me smooth my mana out quite a bit when getting fetches back from earlier turns or grabbing back Eternal Witness. Or just keeping up pressure and grabbing a Rhino. Works as good as a tutor in the long game.
I was also running 3 Traverse the Ulvenwald which were MVP's against Blood Moon Jund but seemed underwhelming without more ways to turn on delirium. Did a good job ramping me out though, especially with Birds always eating a bolt or path.
This is the list I was running:
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Rhino
1 Restoration Angel
1 Thragtusk
2 Angel of Serenity
1 Iona Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Path to Exile
4 Grapple with the Past
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
3 Grisly Salvage
3 Lingering Souls
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Collective Brutality
2 Unburial Rites
So, I also did some tweaking since I last posted, and I switched out Arbor Elves for Birds of Paradise, and definitely think it's a good switch. I also switched out the two Kitchen Finks for two Traverse the Ulvenwald, and I am really liking that change. Blood Moon decks are so popular and doing so well right now that I never really regret having it and fetching up a basic just to be sure I can negate that entire game-plan. I also switched out the Twilight Mire for a Blooming Marsh, and I think this is where I am most comfortable with the deck. It's still a little rough to draw the Iona's but everything else is relatively castable considering most people don't want to blow removal on the Birds after the first 2-3 turns, and so building up to seven isn't all that difficult, and running the two Liliana's will help dump them out of your hand once you get one anyway. I am sure we want to be playing the Grapple with the Past playset instead of Satyr Wayfinders as it just gives you ridiculous amounts of value against people who aren't interacting with your graveyard too much, and can even get there through most kinds of hate. Sure, there's a few cards that hose us pretty good, but no deck is immune to that. I mean, with this configuration, we have several hoser and bomb cards against almost every deck out there, and our mid- to late-game is almost unbeatable right out the gate. There are zero decks off the top of my head that I would see across from me and think I literally can't win from game one, except for maybe Bogles, but it isn't impossible if I draw the right cards and make the game go long enough.
That said, I think the most important thing to tackle with this deck is the sideboard. I'm torn between having mostly creatures to tutor/reanimate and more-impactful spells. Right now I am running:
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
3 Lost Legacy
1 Thragtusk
2 Collective Brutality
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Fracturing Gust
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
Boseiju shores up our already pretty good match-up against control, and against them I also bring in Finks, Brutality, Swagtusk, and take out a Bird, a Path, both Elesh Norn, an Unburial Rites, and an Angel of Serenity, then the game becomes about who can out-value who.
Teeg does great work against Tron as well as Company decks who run Company and Chord of Calling.
The rest is pretty self explanatory. The Lost Legacy's are in there because there are decks that can combo faster than us, and with this we can nug their lynch-pin or at least the half of part of their combos in their deck that we can't beat or interact with fast enough.
I'm liking that Gaddock Teeg in the board actually. What do you think of Eidolon of Rhetoric in the sideboard? It helps our control match up and we can also grab it off Grisly Salvage and Grapple, as well as tutor for it with Traverse with Delirium.
I don't really like Eidolon because it stops our ability to cast multiple spells per turn, which can certainly become relevant since we are mostly a sorcery-speed deck, on top of the fact that it really is only relevant against storm and ad nauseum, and may or may not be relevant at all against normal control decks (I'm guessing not at all due to removal being so efficient in the format). Other sideboard cards I've waffled back and forth are:
Damnation/Wrath of God
Night of Souls' Betrayal
Scavenging Ooze
Reclamation Sage
Acidic Slime
Natural State
Blessed Alliance
Sigarda, both new and old
Discard Spells
These all have their own merits, and I think it really comes down to meta-gaming. The only ones out of the sideboard I think aren't really flexible are the Finks, the Lost Legacy's, and some form of artifact removal. I'm liking Fracturing Gust, however I haven't played it in a tournament yet, and it may be too slow, and so we may have to revert to Natural State/Reclamation Sage. I definitely like Reclamation Sage and have done very well with it, but more so in the versions of the deck I was playing with Restoration Angels and Liliana, the Last Hope. Speaking of Liliana, I just don't think we really need her latest form in the deck simply because we have Grapples doing an instant speed version of her relevant ability, plus I feel like we can do better with the sideboard.
I'm running Reclamation Sage and Sigarda, Host of Herons in my sideboard and I was definitely happy to have them. Especially with the presence of blood moon and all these enchantments that just ruin our value plan. Was even thinking of running 1 Qasali Pridemage in the main.
Blessed Alliance is definitely worth considering, especially against the faster creature combo decks in the format now. Especially since we're pretty light on removal and get off the ground pretty slow, at least from my experience.
I could see a wrath or two being good since I think one of our worst match ups would probably be decks that go wide and fast.
Ok, so jamming some more games, I feel comfortable taking out Boseiju from the sideboard, as well as 1 Lost Legacy. I definitely still think we want some number in the deck, but against many combo decks, Gaddock Teeg and Iona do a ton of heavy lifting. Additionally, I took out the 2 Collective Brutality from the sideboard and augmented it to fight against hyper aggro and burn. As of right now I think our bad match-ups are Tron, hyper aggro and fast combo. Burn can be rough if they have a really good draw and we don't gain enough life fast enough. At this point I'm sitting on this:
I realize it is only 14 cards, but I'm not sure what to make that last one. Any ideas for necessity? I def like the idea of Qasali Pridemage over our other artifact/enchantment interaction, the only mark against it is needing 2 colors, where the other two just want a forest or two. That said, I think it may be worth it. My only idea is just another wrath or another Gaddock Teeg. Teeg would go a long way toward helping against Tron and most combo, where another wrath is good against those other creature decks. I'm leaning more toward Teeg at this point...
No Finks and Thragtusk in the sideboard as I'm running 2 Finks and 1 Thragdaddy in the main. I like the Explosives and Ghostly Prison for aggro decks, and Blessed Alliance definitely does work against Burn (I've been on the opposite side) and Infect. And both Lost Legacy and Stony Silence work against Tron and Affinity. Still thinking on what I would want to take out for a wrath.
I think the lowest impact cards in your sideboard, as far as I can tell, are Surgical Extraction and Sigarda. Sigarda is a great threat, but kind of unnecessary, and Extraction is only really useful against Goryo's Vengeance decks and corner case scenarios against other decks. All of the rest I really like, though. My personal opinion? The Sigarda does the least for you, so I'd get rid of that, honestly. I was also thinking that maybe putting in a Wilt-Leaf Liege might be worth it in place of one of those as well...
I was actually considering Liege as well when I was flipping through my binder. It definitely helps in the games we want to be more aggressive, especially when the graveyard hate comes in.
Good point on the Sigarda. I feel like our Jund match up is good enough with Lingering Souls and that we don't really need the extra insurance.
So, I played a four-round tournament, went 3-1. Only loss was to a dedicated W/U control deck someone had put together to beat other combo decks local players were jamming, with main-deck Relics of Progenitus, planeswalkers, and lots of counterspells and hate cards. Guessing I don't even bother and chalk that match-up to a loss, lol. That said, I played Esper Gifts and crushed it, Infect and beat it handily, and 8-Rack, which is a bye for us, I feel. All in all, very happy with how it played. as a little extra insurance I jammed a Consume the Meek and a Slaughter Pact in the side, and the Pact did great, never drew the Consume the Meek though, but I feel like it's pretty good tech if I can draw it and fire it off against relevant opponents...
In the last tournament I played in I got wrecked: lost to merfolk, won against lantern control, and lost to Kiki chord twice.
Fun games but always got caught getting nowhere real fast. Made me think perhaps a hybrid of the junk midrange and junk rites could potentially be the twist needed. Being able to hit threats before they are threats is nice. And the arbor sprawl combo is great, except with the awkward no forest hands or draws.
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Anyway, I'd been testing with it in the past week and it always felt very solid in consistency and super powerful when it was on; I never felt like I was playing it quite optimally though (for example, I missed a lethal attack in fetching an Angel of Serenity instead of Gavony Township; I had to content myself with the Angel killing my opponent the next turn /shedstear). So lately, I've just been goldfishing to better understand the lines of play available. And I have to say, the sheer number of options that have become available through Traverse became migraine inducing. It's like I'm trying to pilot a devil's combination of Lantern, Pod, and Amulet Bloom.
Traverse is so flexible, but I think it would take players like Owen Turtenwald to play my list even close to optimally: Between deciding to get a basic land turn one to ensure I curve out, saving it for after a Wayfinder/Salvage (I hit delirium consistently turn 3/4, turn 2/3 if I had a dork), and then deciding how to plan the game out once Delirium is active, there are just so many more lines of play. Like finding Witness and then rebuying the Traverse to grab an Angel. Or maybe if I have an Angel in hand and a Sprawl'ed forest, grab an Arbor Elf for turn 4/5 Angel, or Gavony so the Spirits can hold the fort and you hit land drops until you cast your Angel. Fetching Sin Collector against a Uxx Control deck. Or I had a Rhino turn 3 and spent my turn 4 going Traverse>Rhino, E-Wit>Traverse, Traverse>Rhino so I can communicate: "Hey bud. I'm holding two more Rhinos." KTK standard PTSD, too soon? Traverse just feels so absurd (and headachey, which is a good sign?) mid-late game.
And if there's graveyard hate I can see bringing in sb Vault to go up a bit on land count and still playing a "fair" game.
As for Decimator v Craterhoof, both have their merits. If it came down to only wanting the pump effect, I'd want Craterhoof (which is what I intended to communicate), but I can see situations where Decimator is far superior.
Also, after trying out Traverse and hearing that Dredge and Gifts is more powerful? I'd have to flatly disagree there. Dredge, perhaps far faster and slips under us, maybe. But I don't think there's a more powerful gy card in modern.
My point on gifts/dredge is more to say that their strategy totally relies on the GY but that they usually can win the game a couple turns after getting their strategy online (often even winning the same turn) - but graveyard hate completely destroys their plan, whereas with our deck even a delerium Traverse only sets up most of the best cards in the matchup which while being absurdly strong (especially if it's a silver bullet) might not be able to win the game on its own. That being said we are much more resilient to grave hate as we can still hardcast our big threats. I'm not disagreeing with the power of Traverse itself, I just think to hinge on that strategy weakens our deck to graveyard hate. That being said, I think I will try dumping a land so that I can go up to 3 or 4 Traverse because I'm seeing the absurd power you're talking about (ILL NEVER DROP VAULT). I think we could even look to the sideboard for more bullet creatures instead.
One thing I think we should drop Grim Flayers if we are doing the traverse plan because they don't reliably get cards in the yard and can sometimes go 1 for 1 when satyr does the opposite.
LOL I feel the Khans flashbacks my friends always get those when I drop that stingy rhino. Also agree with the playmaking with Traverse it really opens up the deck to some sweet lines. I don't think I'll cut all of my KOTR's though because instant speed is awesome and I still think they're like better goyf's in our list.
4 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
4 Siege Rhino
3 Angel of Serenity
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Unburial Rites
4 Path to exile
4 Mulch
4 Lingering Souls
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Temple Garden
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Godless Shrine
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
Constantly changing the sideboard. Also switching between mulch, grisly salvage and grapple with the past. Im going to try a different build this week due to an expected influx of dredge and graveyard hate.
As for your list, Eisenbaer, I definitely think you want some number of Satyr Wayfinders in there, since they hit as a creature for Sidisi and get pumped through Norn, all the while furthering your strategy of filling the graveyard and hitting land drops. I would also caution against so many big drops as they can lead to clunky hands, but I'm sure it also means you can ramp them out or reanimate them much more often. Whatever works for you.
I don't see a huge difference between goyf and KOTR because 8/10 games I find having at least one ramping spell which means they come out at the same time and KOTR gets bigger and has his activated ability to boot (the pricetag doesn't help but I'm trying to put that aside for discussion xD). What advantages do you find in goyf? I've actually kept bolt highly in my mind when brewing this deck, and we really have no boltable threats which is super nice.
Definately feel the variations too, allows for us to adapt to meta and makes brewing/testing really fun. I hope you don't mind humoring my suggestions, I've only recently moved out of tabletop and my lack of experience probably shows.
And you have great input for your so called "lack of experience;" it has been very valuable in testing and brewing.
Note about hitting Delirium: I noticed we are very consistent in hitting early Delirium if we have about 20 land, 20 creatures, and the rest as some split of Instant/Sorcery/Planeswalker/Artifact/Enchantment/Tribal.
Didn't get to the finals this time around because I'm not going to GP Dallas so I conceded to my QF opponent.
R1 0-2 Naya Titanshift, probably one of my tougher match ups
R2 2-0 Sultai Delver
R3 2-0 Jund (heheheheheh)
R4 2-0 Dredge, all that playtesting with Dredge really helped me maneuver to victory
R5 2-1 Ad Nauseam, was paired down and opponent wouldn't draw
Second place going into top 8, conceded in QF to RG LD after winning game 1 (gotta make em sweat a bit)
Decklist:
4 Arbor Elf
1 Restoration Angel
2 Grim Flayer
1 Thragtusk
2 Angel of Serenity
4 Satyr Wayfinder
3 Siege Rhino
1 Shriekmaw
1 Eternal Witness
4 Path to Exile
3 Grisly Salvage
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
2 Unburial Rites
2 Lingering Souls
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Windswept Heath
2 Temple Garden
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Gavony Township
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Godless Shrine
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Collective Brutality
SB: 1 Shriekmaw
SB: 1 Anafenza, the Foremost
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Thragtusk
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Stony Silence
SB: 1 Pulse of Murasa
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
For what it's worth, I'm a real big fan and would love to see more gameplay. Junk rites is one of my favorite decks of all time and after playing this version, I feel and think you are are on to something.
I am play testing all versions and would love to see more progress. At this moment, I couldn't agree more that the traverse's are spot on. Though, the grim flayer to me makes sense it's too "meta". I don't know yet of a real traditional junk rites build other than the streamline version (when it was played in atandard) but I am extremely interested and will be following up after more play testing.
That being said, success in matches are very real against jund, eapicailly with a playset of rhinos. Though, a bit tougher against rack discard (mostly depending on draws).
Hope to keep this post alive!
-Rob McD.
4 Arbor Elf
4 Siege Rhino
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Angel of Serenity
1 Thragtusk
1 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Lingering Souls
3 Unburial Rites
4 Grisly Salvage
4 Grapple with the Past
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Path to Exile
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
4 Windswept Heath
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Forest
1 Twilight Mire
1 Razorverge Thicket
1 Gavony Township
There are definitely some flex spots in the list. This is a very polar version of the deck, in that you have extremely high-impact cards against a great many decks out here, but you also have to hit what you need against some of them. With the right draws, you can go straight aggro, curving into early Finks, Rhino, and even Swagtusk under optimal conditions and draws, however the primary game plan is still there, and indeed focuses more on the reanimation packagethan most of the previous lists on this thread.
Some things I've noted:
-You can go back and forth between either Liliana of the Veil and the Last Hope, as they both have their matchups that they excel in. I prefer this build with the Last Hope in the sideboard simply because LOTV lets you discard any uncastable fatties in your hand to the graveyard to play later as well as being never actually bad against anything, only mediocre in my experience.
-Finks is in the main to handle Burn and other aggressive matchups, but I've found myself waffling back and forth between them and Damnation/Wrath of God as well as Reclamation Sages and any other utility cards that have struck me. This is definitely your two obvious flex spots in the deck that you get to account for your metagame and decide what to put here.
-I always felt like I was playing from behind with other versions of the deck, which wouldn't allow me to stumble at all, or else I died, however with this version, I have yet to come across a matchup where I didn't feel like I had a fighting chance as long as I identified the line and it panned out. It's rougher, as the main has so little interaction aside from Path to Exile, but our fat white bullets are so high impact that they can just get you to a board position where if you hit them, they and/or our aggro fatties just win us the game.
-I definitely think Grapple with the Past is better than Satyr Wayfinder, which is usually just a horrible feeling after turn 3 or 4, because we get to re-buy creatures and lands that have since been binned that can help us take over a game later on, to include townships that I've had blown up and got back and then beat down with spirits, et al. Also relevant against land destruction, as well as getting basics back against Blood Moon decks after the fact and keeping fixed mana.
-Kind of an add-on to the last one, I'm liking the move away from Utopia Sprawl. It obviously and definitely gave us a more explosive early game, but we were also kind of locked into hoping something good came along in that time to make it worth it. Other problems with them were: a)again, land destruction is even worse for us, two-for-one-ing us (or worse sometimes), b)this creates a really murky early game plan for us. If we have Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl, mill card, if you do the math, we're not actually gaining momentum, as we still aren't reanimating until turn 3 at the earliest anyway, which we could do with just Arbor Elf on the board. The impact of the additional ramp spells are, in my findings and opinion, negligible enough that I don't think they are worth it, thus losing out on four slots we can use for higher-impact cards.
-Finally, with this build, I believe you can actually flex a land for a Traverse the Ulvenwald, but it's really up to you. I definitely like the card and what it offers, but I think it's just a matter of personal preference. Right now I am really liking having mana consistency over the toolbox tutor. Additionally, without the four Sprawls, we are less likely to hit delirium without a little more effort.
At this point, the only match-ups I see as a real problem are fast combo decks (for which I play 3 Lost Legacy in the sideboard), Tron (not sure what we can really do about it), and hyper aggro and burn decks can get rough if we don't draw our life-gain creatures. As you can see, we still have ways of getting ahead of these and even stonewalling them with the creature suite that we have, but it's more hit-or miss, where if we miss, we're most likely dead, but if we hit, we hit big, and it's usually a cakewalk after that. Lastly, decks like Naya Titanshift and Ponza become basically a joke if we hit our Iona and put her in play, so that matchup is better now
That's all I got for now. Feel free to ask me about anything else with the deck. I like the deck and where it's going. I'm a life-long Jund/Abzan Midrange player, and this deck is a lot of fun.
I don't really like how dependent your list is on Iona/Elesh Norn. You have the same/more chance of drawing your huge dudes than you do of drawing Finks/EWit/Thragtusk. You definitely said up front that it's pretty all in on reanimation to win, but that's not a place I want to be in a format trying desperately to combat Dredge. I liked previous versions because they continue to get value with their midrange-y game and Angel of Serenity even through grave hate. With the density of midrange-y cards in this list you're only going to be on that gameplan if you happen to draw correctly, you can't really count on it.
That said, if it's working for you keep at it. I'd love to know you get through sideboard cards or people that combo faster than you/with interaction (like Scapeshift, Ad Naus, Storm, etc).
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current list:
4 Arbor Elf
1 Restoration Angel
1 Thragtusk
2 Angel of Serenity
3 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Siege Rhino
1 Shriekmaw
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Path to Exile
4 Grisly Salvage
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
3 Unburial Rites
4 Lingering Souls
4 Utopia Sprawl
won first round against Jund, Won second round to Jeskai kiki, round 3 lost terribly to Tron (lessons learned in side boarding) and then lost to infect found 4.
Traverse was amazing when deliurium was on, otherwise searching for basics is only suboptimal, same went for the arbor elf and sprawl combo. it two of the three pieces were missing it was not quite helpful.
though, i will be looking to tweak so that it's possibly less reliant of the arbor elf sprawl combo. grisly at 4 was more sufficient than the 4th wayfinder. and Rhino at 4 was just great, hitting rhino was always good.
I ran a very suboptimal list today and went 2-2 at my LGS today.
Beat Jund (winning through turn 0 Leyline of the Void games 2 and 3) and Blood Moon Jund because Lingering Souls is a house and Rhino into Rhino is always great. I Resto'ed a Rhino for lethal in my last match to win. Lost to B/W Eldrazi Taxes and Bant Company.
I found myself hoping for more removal quite a bit and that was already packing 3 forms and 7 cards of maindeck removal. Might cut 1 Angel of Serenity for another Collective Brutality, as I found myself stuck with an uncastable fatty way too many times or having Angel of Serenity with the nonbo of only having spirit tokens in play. And almost all of the games I lost, could have been salvaged with a more aggressive curve or a way to interact. I had 4 Grapple with the Past in place of the Satyr Wayfinders and I really liked them. They helped me smooth my mana out quite a bit when getting fetches back from earlier turns or grabbing back Eternal Witness. Or just keeping up pressure and grabbing a Rhino. Works as good as a tutor in the long game.
I was also running 3 Traverse the Ulvenwald which were MVP's against Blood Moon Jund but seemed underwhelming without more ways to turn on delirium. Did a good job ramping me out though, especially with Birds always eating a bolt or path.
This is the list I was running:
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Rhino
1 Restoration Angel
1 Thragtusk
2 Angel of Serenity
1 Iona Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Path to Exile
4 Grapple with the Past
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
3 Grisly Salvage
3 Lingering Souls
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Collective Brutality
2 Unburial Rites
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Windswept Heath
4 Polluted Delta
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
1 Gavony Township
1 Razorverge Thicket
3 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
That said, I think the most important thing to tackle with this deck is the sideboard. I'm torn between having mostly creatures to tutor/reanimate and more-impactful spells. Right now I am running:
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
3 Lost Legacy
1 Thragtusk
2 Collective Brutality
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Fracturing Gust
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
Boseiju shores up our already pretty good match-up against control, and against them I also bring in Finks, Brutality, Swagtusk, and take out a Bird, a Path, both Elesh Norn, an Unburial Rites, and an Angel of Serenity, then the game becomes about who can out-value who.
Teeg does great work against Tron as well as Company decks who run Company and Chord of Calling.
The rest is pretty self explanatory. The Lost Legacy's are in there because there are decks that can combo faster than us, and with this we can nug their lynch-pin or at least the half of part of their combos in their deck that we can't beat or interact with fast enough.
How is everyone else with the deck faring?
Damnation/Wrath of God
Night of Souls' Betrayal
Scavenging Ooze
Reclamation Sage
Acidic Slime
Natural State
Blessed Alliance
Sigarda, both new and old
Discard Spells
These all have their own merits, and I think it really comes down to meta-gaming. The only ones out of the sideboard I think aren't really flexible are the Finks, the Lost Legacy's, and some form of artifact removal. I'm liking Fracturing Gust, however I haven't played it in a tournament yet, and it may be too slow, and so we may have to revert to Natural State/Reclamation Sage. I definitely like Reclamation Sage and have done very well with it, but more so in the versions of the deck I was playing with Restoration Angels and Liliana, the Last Hope. Speaking of Liliana, I just don't think we really need her latest form in the deck simply because we have Grapples doing an instant speed version of her relevant ability, plus I feel like we can do better with the sideboard.
Thoughts?
Blessed Alliance is definitely worth considering, especially against the faster creature combo decks in the format now. Especially since we're pretty light on removal and get off the ground pretty slow, at least from my experience.
I could see a wrath or two being good since I think one of our worst match ups would probably be decks that go wide and fast.
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Thragtusk
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Lost Legacy
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
1 Reclamation Sage/Acidic Slime
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Damnation
2 Fracturing Gust
I realize it is only 14 cards, but I'm not sure what to make that last one. Any ideas for necessity? I def like the idea of Qasali Pridemage over our other artifact/enchantment interaction, the only mark against it is needing 2 colors, where the other two just want a forest or two. That said, I think it may be worth it. My only idea is just another wrath or another Gaddock Teeg. Teeg would go a long way toward helping against Tron and most combo, where another wrath is good against those other creature decks. I'm leaning more toward Teeg at this point...
2 Stony Silence
2 Lost Legacy
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Anafenza the Foremost
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Engineered Explosives
No Finks and Thragtusk in the sideboard as I'm running 2 Finks and 1 Thragdaddy in the main. I like the Explosives and Ghostly Prison for aggro decks, and Blessed Alliance definitely does work against Burn (I've been on the opposite side) and Infect. And both Lost Legacy and Stony Silence work against Tron and Affinity. Still thinking on what I would want to take out for a wrath.
Good point on the Sigarda. I feel like our Jund match up is good enough with Lingering Souls and that we don't really need the extra insurance.
Fun games but always got caught getting nowhere real fast. Made me think perhaps a hybrid of the junk midrange and junk rites could potentially be the twist needed. Being able to hit threats before they are threats is nice. And the arbor sprawl combo is great, except with the awkward no forest hands or draws.