What do you think about Genju of the Fields? It may be the repeatable source of lifegain we are looking for, as it could start hitting as soon as turn 2 (with a mana dork) and is somewhat hard to remove. I feel like it's a good card in both the aggro games and the longer attrition-based games. (note that this is a mana sink, for 6 mana you get 3 activations and thus 3 times the gain life effect: pair it with a drogskol capt. and it's a beast!)
Ketoglutarate I tried to play with 2 Nebelghast Herald but I did not have much success even looking like a very good card,
I thought I'd use Nebelghast Herald to tap Emrakul Before the attack. Will put Eidolon of Rhetoric on the main or sideboard?
I'm having trouble against Valakuts lists and the combo emrakul + through the breach. I'm thinking of changing my sideboard and putting 3 Leyline of Sanctity or Runed Halo.
I'll also put 1 Kira in the main, This card will help a lot, my drogskol captain are dying a lot.
Then tell us how it came out Permeating Mass, I think it will not work here very well, the meta is occupied by ad nauseam, valakut, jund and living end.
I haven't been playing that much lately but with a new year there's more magic than ever!
I played at my local LGS yesterday and went 4-0 (32 players attending), facing off against BW Tokens, UW Control, Mardu Control (Nahiri/Emrakul-package) and Dredge in the finals.
At my LGS there's a modern league running and during this season (covering about 18 weeks) I managed to snatch second place out of 137 unique players. I have exclusively been playing Bant Spirits and I'm pleased with the results. The league only counts your 8 best results during a season, this is the results we put up with Spirits:
12 pts
12 pts
9 pts
9 pts
9 pts
9 pts
9 pts
9 pts
Earlier in the season I managed to get two 3 pts and two 6 pts, mostly because the list was still in considerable flux (playing Birds AND Hierarchs was the main problem).
Going forward I'm quite sad to se Dredge getting a ban since that was a really good match up for us. We now have to figure out how we are going to beat Grixis and Jund, two archetypes that will be stronger than ever because of the black expertise and Fatal Push. Hopefully cards like Kira, Bygone Bishop, Midnight Haunting and perhaps Tamiyo can help us win the grindier games.
I'm also quite interested in the new mimic artefact, perhaps it can be a better two drop than Phantasmal Image. Keep on spooking and thanks for all the input from this group so far!
Hi! Let's see if we can get active discussion in this thread. I prefer this build over UW spirits and I'm sad to see that thread be much more active than this one
@job_amundsen those are some amazing results! As Fairon said, please post a list
We now have to figure out how we are going to beat Grixis and Jund, two archetypes that will be stronger than ever because of the black expertise and Fatal Push.
There are more fair decks but also more tron/valakut, which I think that are the really troubling ones. Eldrazi will rise too, but in my experience it's a good matchup. From my (albeit limited) testing, jund and grixis are decent with all this fliers, hexproof (geist/drogskol/kira) and collected company. Specifically against grixis, wanderer is super good.
Here I'm testing something a bit spicy, but that has worked for me. Maindeck x2 mindcensor x3 ghost quarter, moving gavony to the sideboard (a card that I almost never want G1). Mindcensor is just another flash flier that has sinergies with the deck (path and quarter) and helps in some difficult matchups (tron and valakut). I've also manascrewed other decks with it.
Oh, I managed to play against valakut (won 2-1). It was a really interesting match, so I'll sum it up here. Maybe you find it interesting as well:
G1 - Missequenced (casted collected before a selfless that I had in hand) and was blown out by a pyroclasm. Collected revealed a mindcensor, so if I had done things the other way it would have been an easy game. Primeval titan ends up killing me.
Sided in 2 unified will, 1 worship for 1 kira, 1 rattlechains, 1 mausoleum.
G2 - Managed to win with geist + double selfless, after countering some ramp in the early game.
G3 - He had double pithing needle for misty rainforest and flooded strand, which left me with one dead fetchland. Turned it into a forest with a ghost quarter and played a regular spirits game while he was a bit stuck on threats. Won this one too.
In the end, mindcensor is good because even if it doesn't survive your opponent needs to waste resources on it, which means less disruption for your other creatures. Quarter was relevant in the strangest way possible, but it's something to take into account.
[R1] vs kiki evolution (2-0)
Overall, grindy games where I had a clock (fliers) while I could block all his stuff (selfless is a beast of a card). Sideboard: -2 geist +1 sword +1 rhox
[R2] vs bushwhacker zoo (2-0)
We both had slow starts, and that favored me both games. Wanderer was the MVP here. Sideboard: -1 kira -2 rattlechains +1 rhox +2 b.alliance
[R3] vs bogles (2-1)
G1 my opponent had no hexproof creatures after a mulligan to 6 and went for the dryad plan. I had path, so I won. G2 got overrun by a giant bogle + white leyline. G3 played the same as game 2 (giant bogle + leyline) but I managed to win the race thanks to 3 drogskol and 2 additional spirits. Sideboard: -1 kira -2 path -1 wanderer -2 rattlechains +2 b.alliance +2 unified will +2 qasali
[R4] vs dredge (2-0)
It's funny because I forgot that troll wasn't banned yet, registered a deck with less GY hate than usual and won anyway. Same as the zoo game: we both had slow starts, and that favors me. Geist beats + some additional fliers and removal won me both games. Sideboard: -1 kira -2 mindcensor -2 rattlechains -1 collected +2 RIP +2 b.alliance +1 rhox +1 worship
Mindcensor wasn't outstanding, but managed to wasteland a bit. It wasn't detrimental for my plan in any game.
Congrats to you too for the brilliant finish! I think aven mindcensor+ghost quarter is an interesting take for our flex slots, surely it adds to the disruption package a lot!
(I'm not sure if it does interfere with our fetches though... Wouldn't it be better from the sideboard? Also there are a lot of colourless lands, isn't it a bit risky?)
Also sword of light and shadow is very interesting, it may be better than unflinching courage in grindy matchups as it does double duty! Not sure if it works against burn and other fast/aggressive decks but I think the format will slow down a lot! We shall see..
Censor is just for your opponents, you don't get taxed. The real tax is running 3-4 ghost quarters hahaha
Anyway, for the colorless lands. You probably know karsten's article about manabases. Checked it, and my list has enough colored sources to consistently have T1 green, T1 blue and T2 white (and that's supposing that cavern can't cast hierarch and that I'm not using GQ to fix my colors. Those desperate moves improve the consistency a little bit)
About sword, even though I sided it in some games, never casted it so I don't know if it's worth it. My guess is that it's better in decks with moorland haunt (to emulate faeries sword+bitterblossom). I'm not really a fan of auras, neither the UW lifelink unblockable one nor unflinching courage. If we have the hexproof lock we are winning anyway and if we don't have it, we can get blown out by removal.
It's worth noting that both auras and equipments are awkward with kira in play. The aura gets countered and you have to pay twice the equipment cost.
Yes, the two drop spot could fit one or two more creatures. Main issue with mimic is that it's a bad topdeck and can't be flashed with rattlechains (same as phantasmal image, but image is a better topdeck). Please report your testing, I don't really know if mimic fits in this deck
Overall, I'm not sure about mindcensor but I'm sure that the flex slots need to be some form of disruption (in addition to the extra SB disruption). Thalia or meddling mage are good options (but don't have flash), vendilion can fit as a flash creature. I like the meddling mage+queller trick that I read in the bant midrange thread (naming with meddling mage the card under queller prevents them from casting it). This opens likes like casting CoCO in response to removal for your queller and having more ways to gain an advantage (another queller, drogskol or meddling mage). Don't know if it's too cute though...
@job_amundsen only 2 path main? how does that go? I always try to play 4 path main when able...
And what about GW/UW fastlands? I'm a fan of botanical (UG are the important turn one plays) and didn't really need other one yet, but maybe there's an argument for those.
Don't like neither duskwatch nor bestiary... at least in this deck (duskwatch has been strong in other decks). It's not really what I want to be doing with this. In a UW flash deck, any non flash card must be REALLY good to be played.
Byshop is interesting. Similar to tireless tracker, but it's a spirit and doesn't get huge. Getting the first clue is a bit more complicated though (with tracker I would usually play it T4 and then play a land if I feared removal). Plus, it triggers on cast, not on ETB, so no synergy with collected.
@ketoglutarate about the manabases, I think that not counting the hierarch as a source is wrong. I would advocate for hierarch as half a source, as karsten says in the article.
When I wrote my comment, this were the lands I counted:
T1 Green 14 (14 needed)
T2 Blue 16 (14 needed)
T3 White 15 (13 needed)
Cavern counts for UW (not for G) and hierarchs count as 2 white sources only. I'm not really worried about path (probably casting that on T3+), so the white is mainly for selfless spirit.
On your optimal manabase for as many colorless as possible: I wouldn't play x2 of any shockland in this deck. Color requirements are not that high (there are no cryptic commands in our deck) and saving life is often important so I prefer fastlands. As I said before, I think that the UG one is the best one by far. Shocks as one ofs should be enough
Considering we are playing 2x Phantasmal Image (which does not have flash) I don't think the bar for how good a non-flash creature (especially a two drop) is especially high. If the meta shifts towards grixis/uwr/jund, Image is looking pretty bad.
Bestiary is probably a dud but being able to filter away lands in the late game (the deck does flood from time to time) while at the same time being able to stay up on cards when we cast creatures is not completely garbage.
The thing is that there are other cards that do that better. Tracker, byshop, planeswalkers, UR/BW swords... all of them are card advantage but on a higher power level.
Again, I am not talking about the current meta where Dredge, Deaths Shadow, Infect and other hyper linear decks rule; this is for a possible future where Fatal Push and Yahennis Expertise has the potential to wreck us.
I don't think that expertises are going to see much play, so I really wouldn't be worried about it. We'll have to see where the meta settles though.
I have been alternating between 2,3 and 4 Path's. If aggro was even more prevalent at my LGS I would consider going up to 3, but I have skewed the deck towards being as pro-active and aggro as possible game 1 and then adapt to my opponents game plan in game 2. I have never felt that the lack of Path's have been a problem, Infect and Affinity are too tough G1 anyways.
Has infect been bad for you? for me, it has been a bye even game 1. A set of path, lots of flash fliers for the manland plus wanderer for the pump spells... I have tons of quarters for the manland too. It all lines up so well with what they're trying to do. Don't really know about affinity, haven't played against it yet.
At least at the moment, the meta is super creature centric so path really wrecks the field. As you said, maybe after AER the meta changes and we need to be even more aggressive and proactive.
I played e version of the deck, played the usual stuff.
Is it me, or is the deck very fragile and draw dependent? Once I draw the cards I am sort of 'lorcked in' and there is very little I can do expect ride it out.
I think I will be trying a bant non spirit version.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have dyslexia, no I am not going to spell check for you, yes you have to live with the horrors of it.
Is it me, or is the deck very fragile and draw dependent? Once I draw the cards I am sort of 'lorcked in' and there is very little I can do expect ride it out.
What did you play against? I don't think that this deck is fragile at all...
Bant is the way to play this deck and everywhere except in this forum agrees with that statement. Anyway, lots of people want to make UW/Esper viable. For me, collected company is what makes this deck and without it I would rather play other deck.
Small note, tiers refer to how much a deck is played, not how good it is
I would never cut selfless. Its one of the best cards in the deck.
Won against emeria, burn and grixis, lost against infect. Lots of misplays from both sides of the table so I wouldn't really call it relevant testing. Anyway, its FNM, this situations are common.
Im a bit confused about bant spirits. There are a lot of 3 drops in the deck (not even counting CC) and I rarely get Noble in my starting hand (I mean, 4 accelerant is not a lot) should I mulligan more? What's the points if I am often stuck at 3 mana? The last 2 fnm I played was a similar experience. I always feel to slow or don't have enough answers to what is happening. That's why unless I just don't get it, I might try UW. At least I might have more counterspells/interactions and feel less naked.
Im a bit confused about bant spirits. There are a lot of 3 drops in the deck (not even counting CC) and I rarely get Noble in my starting hand (I mean, 4 accelerant is not a lot) should I mulligan more? What's the points if I am often stuck at 3 mana? The last 2 fnm I played was a similar experience. I always feel to slow or don't have enough answers to what is happening. That's why unless I just don't get it, I might try UW. At least I might have more counterspells/interactions and feel less naked.
In particular Merfolk and Tron. I either died too fast (islandwalk is rough) or they "combo" me with Tron. Im currently trying to figure out how to improve this. I guess not drawing the hate didn't help either. Other than that, my meta is agressive (infect, affinity), UB Mill or janky random brews.
My mana base is missing some misty rainforests, otherwise its close to CalebD list and I would say I never had any color problems.
If I try to add 2 birds or 2 walls, what should I cut? Maybe 2 Phantasmal images?
In particular Merfolk and Tron. I either died too fast (islandwalk is rough) or they "combo" me with Tron. Im currently trying to figure out how to improve this. I guess not drawing the hate didn't help either. Other than that, my meta is agressive (infect, affinity), UB Mill or janky random brews.
I mean, your list has answers. 2 explosives against merfolk, 3 stony against tron. Geist is good against tron too. Those matchups in particular are rough but there are ways to beat them.
If you want more ways to beat them, maybe my list gives you some ideas. I play with lots of Ghost quarter main, which helps in both matchups (quarter is obviously good against tron, not so obvious against merfolk but it can destroy mutavaults and negate their spreading seas card draw). I also like to have 1-2 worship in my sideboard, which are an absolute bomb against merfolk.
I wouldn't add birds nor wall of roots. I don't think that this deck needs it (there are, indeed, reports early in this thread that say their winrate increased when they cut all acceleration to the hierarchs). Maybe G1 the curve is a little awkward at times but after sideboarding you add lots of 2cmc cards.
Sorry Im not sure I understood your last sentence about the acceleration. You mean increased winrate by cutting them or keeping just those as is without adding more? Either way, Ill keep practicing and try Worship. It looks fun in my meta, not a huge amount of removal.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I had many problems with the combo Through the Breach + Emrakul...
I'm thinking of keeping the Nebelgast Herald to tap emrakul to prevent it from attacking.
Ketoglutarate I tried to play with 2 Nebelghast Herald but I did not have much success even looking like a very good card,
I thought I'd use Nebelghast Herald to tap Emrakul Before the attack. Will put Eidolon of Rhetoric on the main or sideboard?
I'm having trouble against Valakuts lists and the combo emrakul + through the breach. I'm thinking of changing my sideboard and putting 3 Leyline of Sanctity or Runed Halo.
I'll also put 1 Kira in the main, This card will help a lot, my drogskol captain are dying a lot.
Then tell us how it came out Permeating Mass, I think it will not work here very well, the meta is occupied by ad nauseam, valakut, jund and living end.
Main
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
Sideboard
3 Leyline of Sanctity or Runed Halo
3 Stony Silence
3 Rest in Peace
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Spellskite
1 Blessed Alliance
2 Qasali Pridemage
Also, what about the new renegade dude that can buyback selfles spirit?
What is the list used?
Played against valakut? how was it.
How did you get against emrakul combo?
@job_amundsen those are some amazing results! As Fairon said, please post a list
There are more fair decks but also more tron/valakut, which I think that are the really troubling ones. Eldrazi will rise too, but in my experience it's a good matchup. From my (albeit limited) testing, jund and grixis are decent with all this fliers, hexproof (geist/drogskol/kira) and collected company. Specifically against grixis, wanderer is super good.
This is my list
https://deckstats.net/decks/2563/643208-bant-spirits-post-push-v1-1/en
Here I'm testing something a bit spicy, but that has worked for me. Maindeck x2 mindcensor x3 ghost quarter, moving gavony to the sideboard (a card that I almost never want G1). Mindcensor is just another flash flier that has sinergies with the deck (path and quarter) and helps in some difficult matchups (tron and valakut). I've also manascrewed other decks with it.
Oh, I managed to play against valakut (won 2-1). It was a really interesting match, so I'll sum it up here. Maybe you find it interesting as well:
G1 - Missequenced (casted collected before a selfless that I had in hand) and was blown out by a pyroclasm. Collected revealed a mindcensor, so if I had done things the other way it would have been an easy game. Primeval titan ends up killing me.
Sided in 2 unified will, 1 worship for 1 kira, 1 rattlechains, 1 mausoleum.
G2 - Managed to win with geist + double selfless, after countering some ramp in the early game.
G3 - He had double pithing needle for misty rainforest and flooded strand, which left me with one dead fetchland. Turned it into a forest with a ghost quarter and played a regular spirits game while he was a bit stuck on threats. Won this one too.
In the end, mindcensor is good because even if it doesn't survive your opponent needs to waste resources on it, which means less disruption for your other creatures. Quarter was relevant in the strangest way possible, but it's something to take into account.
L: Maverick
https://deckstats.net/decks/2563/645902-bant-spirits-post-push-v1-2
[R1] vs kiki evolution (2-0)
Overall, grindy games where I had a clock (fliers) while I could block all his stuff (selfless is a beast of a card). Sideboard: -2 geist +1 sword +1 rhox
[R2] vs bushwhacker zoo (2-0)
We both had slow starts, and that favored me both games. Wanderer was the MVP here. Sideboard: -1 kira -2 rattlechains +1 rhox +2 b.alliance
[R3] vs bogles (2-1)
G1 my opponent had no hexproof creatures after a mulligan to 6 and went for the dryad plan. I had path, so I won. G2 got overrun by a giant bogle + white leyline. G3 played the same as game 2 (giant bogle + leyline) but I managed to win the race thanks to 3 drogskol and 2 additional spirits. Sideboard: -1 kira -2 path -1 wanderer -2 rattlechains +2 b.alliance +2 unified will +2 qasali
[R4] vs dredge (2-0)
It's funny because I forgot that troll wasn't banned yet, registered a deck with less GY hate than usual and won anyway. Same as the zoo game: we both had slow starts, and that favors me. Geist beats + some additional fliers and removal won me both games. Sideboard: -1 kira -2 mindcensor -2 rattlechains -1 collected +2 RIP +2 b.alliance +1 rhox +1 worship
Mindcensor wasn't outstanding, but managed to wasteland a bit. It wasn't detrimental for my plan in any game.
L: Maverick
Censor is just for your opponents, you don't get taxed. The real tax is running 3-4 ghost quarters hahaha
Anyway, for the colorless lands. You probably know karsten's article about manabases. Checked it, and my list has enough colored sources to consistently have T1 green, T1 blue and T2 white (and that's supposing that cavern can't cast hierarch and that I'm not using GQ to fix my colors. Those desperate moves improve the consistency a little bit)
About sword, even though I sided it in some games, never casted it so I don't know if it's worth it. My guess is that it's better in decks with moorland haunt (to emulate faeries sword+bitterblossom). I'm not really a fan of auras, neither the UW lifelink unblockable one nor unflinching courage. If we have the hexproof lock we are winning anyway and if we don't have it, we can get blown out by removal.
It's worth noting that both auras and equipments are awkward with kira in play. The aura gets countered and you have to pay twice the equipment cost.
L: Maverick
Overall, I'm not sure about mindcensor but I'm sure that the flex slots need to be some form of disruption (in addition to the extra SB disruption). Thalia or meddling mage are good options (but don't have flash), vendilion can fit as a flash creature. I like the meddling mage+queller trick that I read in the bant midrange thread (naming with meddling mage the card under queller prevents them from casting it). This opens likes like casting CoCO in response to removal for your queller and having more ways to gain an advantage (another queller, drogskol or meddling mage). Don't know if it's too cute though...
L: Maverick
And what about GW/UW fastlands? I'm a fan of botanical (UG are the important turn one plays) and didn't really need other one yet, but maybe there's an argument for those.
Don't like neither duskwatch nor bestiary... at least in this deck (duskwatch has been strong in other decks). It's not really what I want to be doing with this. In a UW flash deck, any non flash card must be REALLY good to be played.
Byshop is interesting. Similar to tireless tracker, but it's a spirit and doesn't get huge. Getting the first clue is a bit more complicated though (with tracker I would usually play it T4 and then play a land if I feared removal). Plus, it triggers on cast, not on ETB, so no synergy with collected.
@ketoglutarate about the manabases, I think that not counting the hierarch as a source is wrong. I would advocate for hierarch as half a source, as karsten says in the article.
When I wrote my comment, this were the lands I counted:
T1 Green 14 (14 needed)
T2 Blue 16 (14 needed)
T3 White 15 (13 needed)
Cavern counts for UW (not for G) and hierarchs count as 2 white sources only. I'm not really worried about path (probably casting that on T3+), so the white is mainly for selfless spirit.
On your optimal manabase for as many colorless as possible: I wouldn't play x2 of any shockland in this deck. Color requirements are not that high (there are no cryptic commands in our deck) and saving life is often important so I prefer fastlands. As I said before, I think that the UG one is the best one by far. Shocks as one ofs should be enough
L: Maverick
And that's why I'm not playing phantasmal image
The thing is that there are other cards that do that better. Tracker, byshop, planeswalkers, UR/BW swords... all of them are card advantage but on a higher power level.
I don't think that expertises are going to see much play, so I really wouldn't be worried about it. We'll have to see where the meta settles though.
Has infect been bad for you? for me, it has been a bye even game 1. A set of path, lots of flash fliers for the manland plus wanderer for the pump spells... I have tons of quarters for the manland too. It all lines up so well with what they're trying to do. Don't really know about affinity, haven't played against it yet.
At least at the moment, the meta is super creature centric so path really wrecks the field. As you said, maybe after AER the meta changes and we need to be even more aggressive and proactive.
L: Maverick
Is it me, or is the deck very fragile and draw dependent? Once I draw the cards I am sort of 'lorcked in' and there is very little I can do expect ride it out.
I think I will be trying a bant non spirit version.
What did you play against? I don't think that this deck is fragile at all...
L: Maverick
Small note, tiers refer to how much a deck is played, not how good it is
I would never cut selfless. Its one of the best cards in the deck.
L: Maverick
https://deckstats.net/decks/2563/662287-bant-spirits-post-push-v1-3
Won against emeria, burn and grixis, lost against infect. Lots of misplays from both sides of the table so I wouldn't really call it relevant testing. Anyway, its FNM, this situations are common.
L: Maverick
What, in particular, couldn't you answer?
L: Maverick
My mana base is missing some misty rainforests, otherwise its close to CalebD list and I would say I never had any color problems.
If I try to add 2 birds or 2 walls, what should I cut? Maybe 2 Phantasmal images?
4 Drogskol Captain
3 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Phantasmal Image
4 Rattlechains
4 Selfless Spirit
4 Spell Queller
Enchantments
2 Steel of the Godhead
Instants
4 Collected Company
3 Path to Exile
Lands
2 Botanical Sanctum
2 Breeding Pool
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Gavony Township
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Path to Exile
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rest in Peace
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Spellskite
3 Stony Silence
I mean, your list has answers. 2 explosives against merfolk, 3 stony against tron. Geist is good against tron too. Those matchups in particular are rough but there are ways to beat them.
If you want more ways to beat them, maybe my list gives you some ideas. I play with lots of Ghost quarter main, which helps in both matchups (quarter is obviously good against tron, not so obvious against merfolk but it can destroy mutavaults and negate their spreading seas card draw). I also like to have 1-2 worship in my sideboard, which are an absolute bomb against merfolk.
I wouldn't add birds nor wall of roots. I don't think that this deck needs it (there are, indeed, reports early in this thread that say their winrate increased when they cut all acceleration to the hierarchs). Maybe G1 the curve is a little awkward at times but after sideboarding you add lots of 2cmc cards.
L: Maverick