The only good options in our deck that it can fight against are creatures like wurmcoil. At that point we already have enough mana so we don't care much about the ramp. The token generation is good, but it's probably win-more at that time in the game
@Ulka
I remember when you cited The Scarab God, i was excited to test it, but then i remember we just have something in this line: the old Havengul Lich.
The Scarab God
PROS: Scy, Strong beater, return from grave, make more strongs Mulldrifter, Glint-Nest, Architect etc.
CON: Exile after return, Always 4CMC to return, turn creature into black (not buffed from architect. EXPANSIVE $$$$$
Havengul Lich
PROS: Can cast creatures how much does you have mana and not exile it from grave. Can use Architect to pay cost. CHEAP $
CON: Fragile.
Hmm both of these cards seem a bit off if we put it into the deck. They're both at 5 mana, and as powerful as their effects are they don't synergize well with our build. We don't really put a lot of our cards into the graveyard voluntarily. Now if they're a way to get some resistance from opposing removal wouldn't Academy Ruins already do the trick? Right now the only card it'll work well with seems to be the evoked Mulldrifter. The lich will make the drifter a 2 mana repeatable draw 2 with heartless out (one mana to activate the ability and one blue to cast evoked).
Havengul Lich in the deck makes me think that while we're at it, why don't we also have the Priest of Urabrask and our good pal Perilous Myr (ye old infinite mana infinite damage combo).
I dont think in this line. We dont need to put things voluntarily. Academy Ruins helps but dont do all (academy put in top, lich cast ate the time and can use the enemy graveyard too). I like to have grave as source too.
I know I may be in a minority here but I have tested havengul lich quite a lot in the past. When the meta is more removal based haven does wonders. He is an all-star against tron which surprise is our worst matchup IMO. However the meta adapted to be too fast for him. However now I feel the meta with all its combos actually could be very worth while. While we don't run the myr or Priest combo he still allows us to recur our threats while being a decent beat down threat on his own.
I also would like to note that if we play the tolaria west package it means we can play the Claws of Gix for the burn match-up that I know Various loves. The Claws as a sideboard card does allow us to use havengul more efficiently as it would give us a was to prevent exile via Path which is one of the most annoying things that happens to us IMO especially on a wurmcoil engine.
Back more on topic: With havengul I could see us doing a Sphinx Summoner Main board and a havengul Sideboard and swapping them at post board for more control, removal heavy match-ups. Also if we board Havengul in the Sideboard I feel we could easily sideboard a copy of Perilous myr for a semi combo kill.
TL:dr; Havengul has potential in our deck but it may mean adjusting our deck to more toolbox style especially in the sideboard.
Note: sorry I've been MIA. It's been a really rough week and a half at work with trying to get W2s out in time so I should have more test results upcoming soon.
Edit: I realised i never mentioned why we may run perilous myr int he sideboard. Outside of combo potential it allows us to have 'free' shock removal with Heartless summoning on the field.
Havengul Lich and The Scarab God don't get discounts from Grand Architect, Etherium Sculptor or Chief Engineer. And while they get the benefit of the Architect's lord effect and can tap for some mana, the earliest we'd be putting them down instead of our other artifacts is turn 4 and that's with Heartless Summoning out. They can't be taken from Glint-nest Crane's ability as well. I'm also wondering what they should be replacing in the mainboard.
I'm a bit pessimistic with their inclusion but I will try out some online games with them to see how they perform. They're powerful and can be useful no doubt but I just feel that by the time they become useful, it'd already be too late.
If it's targeted removal we're worried about, Spellskites seem to be the better option. Yes, it's a one time thing, but consider the field with a Lodestone and a Spellskite. The tax is enough so that the lodestone will have enough time to swing at least twice. By then, we might already have some other threats that are giving our opponents headaches.
Havengul Lich is not a card you'll throw in early, you wait your threath over, either by combats ou counters or remove, then you drop something can fill the board again, SURPRISE.
I think its just 2 in build for this.
@ulka
Toolbox is so interesting. I like it, it seens less topdraw is a miss card.
I am interested by Lich again. The idea of casting both Walking Ballista and Perilous Myr repeatedly sounds really fun to me. Also, you can target Ballista with the Lich in order to put +1/+1 counters on the lich...
I also would like to note that if we play the tolaria west package it means we can play the Claws of Gix for the burn match-up that I know Various loves. The Claws as a sideboard card does allow us to use havengul more efficiently as it would give us a was to prevent exile via Path which is one of the most annoying things that happens to us IMO especially on a wurmcoil engine.
Claws of Gix has been a fantastic card, especially in a Path to Exile heavy environment. Alongside the Tolaria West conversation, I might choose to play 1 Slaughter Pact either in the main or the side. I just played a game where if I had a removal target for Tolaria, I would've won the game.
Mimic vat could be a fun way to abuse some of the ETB effects. If you have a decent sacrifice outlet you can do some crazy things with Wurmcoil. If you can find a way to get it online early enough and protect it so your op doesn't 2-for-1 you, then it could be some sweet tech.
Back when it was still standard I played it along with Phyrexia's Core so that when my Wurmcoil is about to eat removal like Oblivion Ring, I can sacrifice it and then later on proceed with abusing the vat (create token, sac to core after attacking). Standard was a much slower format so you have some time to setup.
Early versions of my deck in modern had the vat but I found that it was too slow. It's hard to put it down on the same turn we have a threat for ourselves we'd like to retain. It works well if you have a steady removal suite though since you can use it to take your opponent's creatures and use them for yourself.
On a completely different note, I just saw Razormane Masticore in a binder and I'm trying it out. Feels like it's a good consistent weenie removal and with the First Strike it can fight with creatures up to X/8 (or X/7 with heartless out). With all the discussions we've been having about the lich, I think this card would also synergize well with it.
Have you tried out Claws of Gix? It is non-tapping version of phyrexia's core that you can use architect to activate and is also tutorable with both Tolaria West and Trinket Mage. It also doesn't strain your manabase with an extra colorless land the way Core does. It has been awesome for me in games against decks running Paths.
For the Masticore, that first strike is an awesome selling point, but have you considered Molten-Tail Masticore? It costs 1 less, you can tap an Architect to regenerate it (pseudo-first strike and dodging removal) and it throws dead creatures at anything/anyone for 4 damage a piece.
this Mimic vat tech with some sac tech looks awesome.
Is like Various sad, we can abuse some of the ETB effects, now we have some good creaures to do this like Mulldrifter, Noxious Gearhulk (i used Fulminator Mage on my side, this should helps alot agains trons, valakuts) ... i guess i want to test this, maybe we need to choose between Lich and Mimic ... then, things like Claws of Gix must be MB.
if I were to choose, on masticore i guess Molten-Tail is better, first strike is nice, but with Molten-Tail we can close de game without need combat.
As I'm kind of not playing with the deck lately, we have some new build with the lasts brainstorms ? Anyone would risk any?
My tests with Molten-tail Masticore ended up me just having to discard cards without being able to use his ability to deal the 4 damage as removal. The regenerate is cool and the deal 4 is great but only if we have creatures in the grave to throw out to exile. In the games I were in, these creatures were in exile instead.
I will test out the Claws.
The Mimic Vat idea with Mulldrifter seems to be quite interesting. With Grand Architect in play we can always tap the Mulldrifter for 2 mana before it dies making the mimic vat ability a (1, tap): draw 2 repeatable.
My tests with Molten-tail Masticore ended up me just having to discard cards without being able to use his ability to deal the 4 damage as removal or direct damage. The regenerate is cool and the deal 4 is great but only if we have creatures in the grave to throw out to exile. In most of my tests I had very few creatures in the graveyard that I could use to use as fodder.
I will test out the Claws.
The Mimic Vat idea with Mulldrifter seems to be quite interesting. With Grand Architect in play we can always tap the Mulldrifter for 2 mana before it dies making the mimic vat ability a (1, tap): draw 2 repeatable.
If you want to go for the mimic vat - loop toolbox I would highly recommend playing Scarecrone. It's second ability also has a similar effect for looping these abilities, it is tutorable with Trophy Mage, and it's first ability is also helps you dig for answers/vats. Sidisi's Faithful is another good card to consider. It can sac itself or other utility creatures on ETB and could be used as repeatable removal. It is also a blue 1-drop that survives Heartless Summoning so it also helps accelerate our plan with Engineer and Architect.
I am a little skeptical of this Mimic Vat build because it might be too slow and too fragile, but I picked up playset of Vats so I'll do a little testing.
I have recently been testing a Grixis version of the deck. I'll post sometime soon with my list and thoughts sometime soon.
About toolbox i just throw this with no basement (like all brainstorm) idk if play as box for Mimic or use mimic as a suport, but i really guess vat is a worth tool. No get noone, but this weekend i'll try figure something with it on-line.
I ask many time for the 3 color, but no response about pros and cons, but i think splash for G bring us much good cards to fill the edges that we have on UB
Testing out Padeem, Consul of Innovation now (2 in mainboard). The hexproof and the draw potential is attractive. On this removal heavy meta, I think it's worth the 4 mana.
Btw is there a discord channel for this discussion?
@ Pem: We don't have a Discord setup as the thread has been enough in the past. It helps Various and I grew up together so we talk a lot about this in the past but this is where most discussion happens.
@GHG: I feel like mimic is cool but i think Id rather go the route of Lupine Prototype with Molten-tail masticore if Im testing. I feel the mimic vat is super cool and toolboxy but i started to realize it doesn't pan out in my few games Ive tested due to a lack of solid blue creatures that sacrifice themselves, We have mulldrifter and Sidisi's familiar but they doent always seem worth it when dealing with Grand architect Especially since if anyone saw the most recent GP, affinity and humans were running rampant.
With those decks making a comeback I am looking at Vedalken Shackles as a decent removal source as it just cleans affinty up ( and humans smaller dudes)as we can steal and kill things via heartless summoning.
Unfortunately my Grixis testing has shown Masticore and Prototype to be super awkward together. Masticore requires that you hold the card you draw in your hand so you can discard it during your next upkeep. But holding that card in your hand shuts off Prototype. I wanted them to be awesome together, but they just don't play well
With those decks making a comeback I am looking at Vedalken Shackles as a decent removal source as it just cleans affinty up ( and humans smaller dudes)as we can steal and kill things via heartless summoning.
This is very real. Shackles stalls Affinity really hard. They can't equip their Cranial Plating reliably and Shackles + Spellskite turns off Arcbound Ravager.
Speaking of the GP, I am tempted to try fitting Hollow One in the deck, but I think our other beaters may be better and more reliable for us.
What is this build with Lupine Prototype ? I looked for Lupine some time, but was not so sure cause this point we cant hold cards.
Various have a point ... Masticore dont make it little awkward ? One need card other dont need.
How many copys of Vedalken Shackles do you think? if we use it, we can make Trophy Mage worth and use a copy of Quicksilver fountain ? He helps shackles and attack greedy mana bases, like Humans, trons, valakut's ...
@VARIOUS
I dont see any value on Hollow One on our build, he enter at the same time we can put a lodestone Golem on field.
Talking about Lodestone Golemm the majority games i win, is just slam golem on T3, then 4 Golem 4 Clones seens soo fine to fix in the build
Lupine and Molten-tail would be awkward together if it's only them. But if you had Padeem, Consul of Innovation with them you might have better luck. At upkeep put the molten-tail trigger on the stack then on top of it put the draw trigger. This way, even if you empty your hand out at the end of your turn, you have a card to draw on your upkeep you can still throw out.
I'm not able to put a lot of time testing Padeem yet but from the few games I've tried her in my opponents always needed to answer her either by countering or removing her first. This ends up reducing their responses when next turn I put down Lodestones or other threats. There are games wherein she'd be in play without any artifacts on our side so I tried adding more mana rocks to make sure that if she goes down on turn 3, at turn 4 upkeep there's a chance we'll draw. The best Padeem play I can think of is: Turn 2 heartless, Turn 3 with 3 lands Grand Architect into Dimir Signet into Padeem into Lodestone. A hexproof lodestone is an absolute annoyance. With the removals taking on extra tax, spending one on just Padeem to get rid of the hexproof has been interesting. It'd be great if you guys could test it out too or maybe give your thoughts.
With Vedalken Shackles in, Claws of Gix seem to increase in value in our deck. And since we're on the topic of Claws, what are your thoughts on a one-of Spine of Ish Sah tutorable via Treasure Mage?
Lupine was one that its all theory so may builds have been untuned and very rough. Lupine while somedays worked really great, (jund and grixis Shadow matchups) othertimes just felt awful.
I didn't think of Claws + Shackles so that incentives me to play it even more.
I remember when you cited The Scarab God, i was excited to test it, but then i remember we just have something in this line: the old Havengul Lich.
The Scarab God
PROS: Scy, Strong beater, return from grave, make more strongs Mulldrifter, Glint-Nest, Architect etc.
CON: Exile after return, Always 4CMC to return, turn creature into black (not buffed from architect. EXPANSIVE $$$$$
Havengul Lich
PROS: Can cast creatures how much does you have mana and not exile it from grave. Can use Architect to pay cost. CHEAP $
CON: Fragile.
I Missed something ?! thoughts !?
Havengul Lich in the deck makes me think that while we're at it, why don't we also have the Priest of Urabrask and our good pal Perilous Myr (ye old infinite mana infinite damage combo).
Artifact is easy hated (see Kolaghan's Command for example, can do 2 for 1 in our deck). Lich is just to make resilience. We have good creatures with etb: Noxious Gearhulk, Mulldrifter, Phyrexian Metamorph, Treasure Mage (Hostage Taker if use it), with some manas we can bring all Myr Superion back and make mor board presence. Lich here is mor for a support them a build around as the Priest of Urabrask combo are.
I also would like to note that if we play the tolaria west package it means we can play the Claws of Gix for the burn match-up that I know Various loves. The Claws as a sideboard card does allow us to use havengul more efficiently as it would give us a was to prevent exile via Path which is one of the most annoying things that happens to us IMO especially on a wurmcoil engine.
Back more on topic: With havengul I could see us doing a Sphinx Summoner Main board and a havengul Sideboard and swapping them at post board for more control, removal heavy match-ups. Also if we board Havengul in the Sideboard I feel we could easily sideboard a copy of Perilous myr for a semi combo kill.
TL:dr; Havengul has potential in our deck but it may mean adjusting our deck to more toolbox style especially in the sideboard.
Note: sorry I've been MIA. It's been a really rough week and a half at work with trying to get W2s out in time so I should have more test results upcoming soon.
Edit: I realised i never mentioned why we may run perilous myr int he sideboard. Outside of combo potential it allows us to have 'free' shock removal with Heartless summoning on the field.
I'm a bit pessimistic with their inclusion but I will try out some online games with them to see how they perform. They're powerful and can be useful no doubt but I just feel that by the time they become useful, it'd already be too late.
If it's targeted removal we're worried about, Spellskites seem to be the better option. Yes, it's a one time thing, but consider the field with a Lodestone and a Spellskite. The tax is enough so that the lodestone will have enough time to swing at least twice. By then, we might already have some other threats that are giving our opponents headaches.
Havengul Lich is not a card you'll throw in early, you wait your threath over, either by combats ou counters or remove, then you drop something can fill the board again, SURPRISE.
I think its just 2 in build for this.
@ulka
Toolbox is so interesting. I like it, it seens less topdraw is a miss card.
Claws of Gix has been a fantastic card, especially in a Path to Exile heavy environment. Alongside the Tolaria West conversation, I might choose to play 1 Slaughter Pact either in the main or the side. I just played a game where if I had a removal target for Tolaria, I would've won the game.
Early versions of my deck in modern had the vat but I found that it was too slow. It's hard to put it down on the same turn we have a threat for ourselves we'd like to retain. It works well if you have a steady removal suite though since you can use it to take your opponent's creatures and use them for yourself.
On a completely different note, I just saw Razormane Masticore in a binder and I'm trying it out. Feels like it's a good consistent weenie removal and with the First Strike it can fight with creatures up to X/8 (or X/7 with heartless out). With all the discussions we've been having about the lich, I think this card would also synergize well with it.
For the Masticore, that first strike is an awesome selling point, but have you considered Molten-Tail Masticore? It costs 1 less, you can tap an Architect to regenerate it (pseudo-first strike and dodging removal) and it throws dead creatures at anything/anyone for 4 damage a piece.
Is like Various sad, we can abuse some of the ETB effects, now we have some good creaures to do this like Mulldrifter, Noxious Gearhulk (i used Fulminator Mage on my side, this should helps alot agains trons, valakuts) ... i guess i want to test this, maybe we need to choose between Lich and Mimic ... then, things like Claws of Gix must be MB.
if I were to choose, on masticore i guess Molten-Tail is better, first strike is nice, but with Molten-Tail we can close de game without need combat.
As I'm kind of not playing with the deck lately, we have some new build with the lasts brainstorms ? Anyone would risk any?
I will test out the Claws.
The Mimic Vat idea with Mulldrifter seems to be quite interesting. With Grand Architect in play we can always tap the Mulldrifter for 2 mana before it dies making the mimic vat ability a (1, tap): draw 2 repeatable.
I will test out the Claws.
The Mimic Vat idea with Mulldrifter seems to be quite interesting. With Grand Architect in play we can always tap the Mulldrifter for 2 mana before it dies making the mimic vat ability a (1, tap): draw 2 repeatable.
We almost do a nice toolbox here:
Trinket Mage: Walking Ballista, Claws of Gix and Some hate card X/1 Cost
Treasure Mage: Wurmcoil Engine, Noxious Gearhulk, Scuttling Doom Engine ...
MAYBE, idk if it too worth
Trophy Mage: Mimic Vat, maybe Swords ...
I am a little skeptical of this Mimic Vat build because it might be too slow and too fragile, but I picked up playset of Vats so I'll do a little testing.
I have recently been testing a Grixis version of the deck. I'll post sometime soon with my list and thoughts sometime soon.
EDIT: In this line Sidisi, Undead Vizier show to be a good option too.
I ask many time for the 3 color, but no response about pros and cons, but i think splash for G bring us much good cards to fill the edges that we have on UB
Btw is there a discord channel for this discussion?
2 Treasure Mage
2 Noxious Gearhulk
2 Sphinx Summoner
4 Grand Architect
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Mulldrifter
2 Claws of Gix
4 Heartless Summoning
4 Fatal Push
3 Watery Grave
4 Polluted Delta
2 Drowned Catacomb
1 Academy Ruins
2 Sunken Ruins
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Darkslick Shores
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins
gibe the thougths !!
EDIT: i just remember a card wich can be good with vat too: Shriekmaw
@GHG: I feel like mimic is cool but i think Id rather go the route of Lupine Prototype with Molten-tail masticore if Im testing. I feel the mimic vat is super cool and toolboxy but i started to realize it doesn't pan out in my few games Ive tested due to a lack of solid blue creatures that sacrifice themselves, We have mulldrifter and Sidisi's familiar but they doent always seem worth it when dealing with Grand architect Especially since if anyone saw the most recent GP, affinity and humans were running rampant.
With those decks making a comeback I am looking at Vedalken Shackles as a decent removal source as it just cleans affinty up ( and humans smaller dudes)as we can steal and kill things via heartless summoning.
Unfortunately my Grixis testing has shown Masticore and Prototype to be super awkward together. Masticore requires that you hold the card you draw in your hand so you can discard it during your next upkeep. But holding that card in your hand shuts off Prototype. I wanted them to be awesome together, but they just don't play well
This is very real. Shackles stalls Affinity really hard. They can't equip their Cranial Plating reliably and Shackles + Spellskite turns off Arcbound Ravager.
Speaking of the GP, I am tempted to try fitting Hollow One in the deck, but I think our other beaters may be better and more reliable for us.
What is this build with Lupine Prototype ? I looked for Lupine some time, but was not so sure cause this point we cant hold cards.
Various have a point ... Masticore dont make it little awkward ? One need card other dont need.
How many copys of Vedalken Shackles do you think? if we use it, we can make Trophy Mage worth and use a copy of Quicksilver fountain ? He helps shackles and attack greedy mana bases, like Humans, trons, valakut's ...
@VARIOUS
I dont see any value on Hollow One on our build, he enter at the same time we can put a lodestone Golem on field.
Talking about Lodestone Golemm the majority games i win, is just slam golem on T3, then 4 Golem 4 Clones seens soo fine to fix in the build
I'm not able to put a lot of time testing Padeem yet but from the few games I've tried her in my opponents always needed to answer her either by countering or removing her first. This ends up reducing their responses when next turn I put down Lodestones or other threats. There are games wherein she'd be in play without any artifacts on our side so I tried adding more mana rocks to make sure that if she goes down on turn 3, at turn 4 upkeep there's a chance we'll draw. The best Padeem play I can think of is: Turn 2 heartless, Turn 3 with 3 lands Grand Architect into Dimir Signet into Padeem into Lodestone. A hexproof lodestone is an absolute annoyance. With the removals taking on extra tax, spending one on just Padeem to get rid of the hexproof has been interesting. It'd be great if you guys could test it out too or maybe give your thoughts.
With Vedalken Shackles in, Claws of Gix seem to increase in value in our deck. And since we're on the topic of Claws, what are your thoughts on a one-of Spine of Ish Sah tutorable via Treasure Mage?
I didn't think of Claws + Shackles so that incentives me to play it even more.