@Pzychout
This list is super super rampy. I built it on tapped out and playtested a few hands. Aside from Chandra, what is the game plan? It doesn't seem to have a problem with casting Chandra on turn 1 or turn 2 but what is the plan for winning with her? Do you think you can reliably uptick her to ultimate? Do you try to use Reforge the Soul to find a Tezzeret's Gambit for a surprise ultimate? The list leaves a lot of questions.
How is reforge the soul? It is hard to judge in goldfishing but I think it would help the opponent as much as us. You can cast it turn 2-3 for more gas or whatever. What are you using this card to find? It combos well with Faithless looting compared to Day's Undoing but I need some help seeing the value in your current list.
I'm not seeing a lot of value from Saheeli Rai. Are you only ever wanting to use her +1? I don't see any real targets for her other two abilities that will have a big effect on the game.
I also notice you are running 3 Inventors' Fair. Is there any reason for this? I don't see any high value artifacts to find early with it.
This list really reminds me of a doubling season deck in what you are trying to do. Here is a list that I think could be easily adapted to the Dice Factory shell while mixing influences from what you are wanting to do.
How is reforge the soul? It is hard to judge in goldfishing but I think it would help the opponent as much as us. You can cast it turn 2-3 for more gas or whatever. What are you using this card to find? It combos well with Faithless looting compared to Day's Undoing but I need some help seeing the value in your current list.
I'm not seeing a lot of value from Saheeli Rai. Are you only ever wanting to use her +1? I don't see any real targets for her other two abilities that will have a big effect on the game.
I also notice you are running 3 Inventors' Fair.
Alrighty, heck of a lot to reply to here! The list is what I was play-testing to solidify the core of the deck. Batterskull and Banefire would be included to beat/burn into submission. Chandra Ult. would be the main wincon but her +1 with some banefires could be all it needs. Would definitely consider another win-con to go with. Saheeli I viewed as a mini chandra.+1 is useful for scying and pinging and the -2 could copy a win-con or coretapper.
I like reforge the soul as it can miracle early game or we can easily hard cast to reset our hand. any match-up other than affinity shouldnt benefit too much from this, especially if chandra is already down.
Inventors fair is usually at two. but I was experimenting with 3 as we have the mana to pay early and could find a win-con not included in the posted list.
So the more I thought about it, the less I liked the idea of the doubling season list. Althought we could get it out early and win some games that way, I think the deck is better at doing other things. Then thinking about Saheeli Rai in your list and how she could be useful other than copying a coretapper. We don't have any other high value artifacts that need copied really aside from Batterskull/Wurmcoil Engine. Sundering Titan is a nice target for her though and can fit well in the deck. Glint-Nest Crane also fits nicely with her.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance is a good card on her own and could be used to help generate advantage or another win-con. Looking at a deck like this, I think she needs Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas to really help power up the deck and give it yet another solid card on its own. We could possibly squeeze 2-3 Chandras into the list or even up them all to 4, but I think this list is a good place to start.
I don't think we would need to be in green and could substitute the cranes for Ancient Stirrings.
I'm actually really excited to test this list out and it might be the next one I start playing/testing on modo if it does well in my inital goldfishing.
Not sure if Felidar Guardian is worth throwing in to the list or splashing for just as an instant win. I don't think it synergizes with any part of the deck and should probably be left to dedicated Saheeli/Guardian decks.
edit: Have been doing a lot of testing with this list. It operates fairly well even without the mana rocks and doesn't completely rely on them like some of the other lists. I've had positive results overall and will continue to play and tune this on mtgo. I managed to get a turn 3 Sundering Titan on the play against Grixis Delver game 1 and they scooped it up. I lost the other two but that first game was so glorious.
I'm running the eldrazi list on the first page. I try to keep my lists updated whenever I make a change I plan on keeping. I just uploaded a video of me playing the Eldrazi Factory list onto youtube. It was an Eldrazi mirror against Eldrazi Tron. Pretty good stuff. I will update the list to add my current sideboard as well.
I'm running the eldrazi list on the first page. I try to keep my lists updated whenever I make a change I plan on keeping. I just uploaded a video of me playing the Eldrazi Factory list onto youtube. It was an Eldrazi mirror against Eldrazi Tron. Pretty good stuff. I will update the list to add my current sideboard as well.
I'm starting to lean off of Wildfire in the current meta. It is great if we manage to get one off early and surprise the opponent, but it just isn't great when facing down things that can disrupt our ramp, Tasigur, Reality Smasher, Tarmogoyf, or Death's Shadow. Even Affinity can get big enough to dodge it. I have done little testing with Death Cloud, but this might be the direction to go if you want to use Wildfire. I've started to replace Wildfire with Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas in my lists as he can win games, disrupted ramp or not. All 3 of his abilities are just great for the deck and the more I play with him, the more I want to see him in games.
After testing the various lists, I think the stronger lists in the current meta are the Eldrazi Factory, Paradox Factory and the Grixis Factory lists. I am currently testing a mix between the Paradox Engine combo list and the Grixis Tezzeret list. The deck needs a secondary way to use charge counters or you will end up with huge amounts of mana and few threats. Lux Cannon can be good on its own and could fill this role, but the Paradox Combo can close games out of nowhere.
I will post the list in the coming days after some final tweaking and sideboard testing.
I like the idea of going away from wildfire in favor for Death cloud. the discard effect of Death cloud may be the key to lock the opponent out of the game. but it has to be protected against any countermagic, so I would play maindeck Defense Grid. Also as a tutor and control element after a Deathcloud Dimir Machinations is nuts. Tutoring for anything with manacost 3 is nice, like Deathcloud and Ensnaring Bridge. Maybe we could put it in a BG shell to get use to some nice additions, meaning Abrupt Decay and MAelstrom Pulse. Also green and black may have some nice Planeswalkers as finishers and also we could pack some discard in there to disrupt combo and counter.
In the deck Ancient Stirrings seem to be weak also Padeem is a bit underwhelming because of death cloud. I need a way to recover after casting a deathcloud before my enemy does...
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Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
Yeah, but it's really more "Disney Evil" than practical. It's like being a bond villain and giving a monologue rather then just shooting them.
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
What decks are you running into that run that many counters? Aside from counterspells, Defense Grid helps against some decks that play mostly at instant speed or want to use combat tricks or removal/K-Command on our turn to make us discard.
I have had success with Defense Grid against Grixis Delver, UW Control, UB Control, Grixis Control, Esper Control, Jeskai Control, Blue Moon, Mono U Tron, and possibly Scapeshift. If you don't have a high percentage of these decks in your meta or other decks that run 6+ counterspells, I don't think you should run Defense Grid maindeck. I do enjoy having them somewhere in the 75 for control matches as they make the games so much easier. I don't think they are truly needed but it is nice hate that can be found with our dig cards. They can also be turned into 5/5's with tezzeret so that's a plus.
The thing with defense grid is not that there is a countermagic heavy meta but you need to resolve that 1 spell, be it Death Cloud or Wildfire. If it gets countered it means mostly that you lose the game.
It also protects you from EoT plays of your opponent which virtually "slows" them down.
Some decks just board in spell pierce or negate if they know what needs to be countered. Additionally it helps as a wincon if it gets a 5/5 or leeches 2 life with Tezzeret.
Also what do you think of Ancient Stirrings in this list?
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"Master they threatened to darken the sky with their arrows!"
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
Yeah, but it's really more "Disney Evil" than practical. It's like being a bond villain and giving a monologue rather then just shooting them.
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
I can see this being a problem in a local meta where you are playing with the same people over and over again. In my games on MTGO, I will usually draw the counters out of their hand turn 2-3 if they have them unless they are running 8+ counterspells. The biggest thing that worries me against blue decks is Cryptic Command. Bouncing a chalice after we have invested time and mana into pumping it up is just horrible for us. It all just depends on what list you are running and how you want to deal with them. I do think if you want to run Death Cloud and Defense Grid maindeck, you should increase the number of Tezzeret to 3-4. Planeswalkers in general work very well with Wildfire/Death Cloud.
This is the whole reason that I moved Blood Moon to the sideboard. We simply don't have that many slots for high impact cards and we need to maximize our draws if we want the deck to be competitive. Drawing into a card like Blood Moon or Defense Grid when we are behind just feels so bad. I'm starting to be more proactive and put pressure on the opponent making them have to present a clock, interact, or die. Having Tezz as a 4 drop is just so good against decks that hurt us the most. If they disrupt our ramp, we can still slam him down early. Every ability of his synergizes well with the deck and the opponent must deal with him.
The thing with Death Cloud is that it makes us sacrifice. It makes it much harder for us to run creatures since we can't just play things too big for Wildfire. I think Batterskull has a place here. It can be sacced and played again the next turn, eat all sorts of removal and only really dies to Kolaghan's Command maindeck. The discard of Death Cloud is also hard to get around. I usually find myself wanting to cast Wildfire on turn 3 followed by a Wurmcoil Engine or whatever finisher I had in hand. You can't really do this well with Death Cloud and need to cast your finisher before you death cloud, giving your opponent a turn to interact before it can happen. Losing our hand and relying on our topdecks usually means our opponent will catch up with us sooner or later depending on what they are running.
In the list that you posted, you are really only running 4 finishers. I would try to up this number to 6-10 for much better results. I think Padeem can be cut down to a 1 of or even entirely possibly. While great, he doesn't synergize at all with the Death Cloud plan and would only be there to eat other removal that the opponent would have to discard anyways. You could cut the two Padeem for two more Tezzeret as it is a much much stronger card on its own.
Looking at your mana base, I would consider cutting 1-2 Tendo Ice Bridge for another Glimmervoid and or Spire of Industry. The list seems pretty color intensive with Death Cloud, Abrupt Decay, and Tezzeret. In my Sultai list, Voltaic Key is pretty clutch in getting the colors of mana we need on time. Being able to filter our mana by spending a colorless to untap a Cornucopia or Mox Opal helps to cast things like Abrupt decay on turn 2 when we only have Darksteel Citadel. Speaking of Citadel, I notice you have cut them from the list. I think you should be running at least 2 if you have 4 Mox Opal and probably 4 since you have Tezzeret in the list. He makes themm 5/5 indestructible beaters. I have closed out a few games very early this way and it's great fun.
I know you specifically asked about Ancient Stirrings since you feel it is one of the weakest cards in the list. The problem with it is that you don't have many high value colorless cards in the list. I only see you using it to help against discard/artifact destruction early or to possibly hope to find a Defense Grid / Wurmcoil late game. Using it to find some ramp artifact is pretty underwhelming late game when you already have your mana in order.
This would give you some additional pressure, while also helping with problems in colored mana potentially. Running only 17 lands and no Voltaic Key, I think you need to maximize your colored duals in the form of Blooming Marsh or Darkslick Shores in place of some of the basics. It would help you consistently cast the spells you want to cast on time. If you are interested in cutting Ancient Stirrings, I'm not really sure what you could replace it with. It helps so much sometimes even just getting a land so we can cast our more impactful spells in hand.
Maybe it is a meta call and you are probably right with your thoughts. I also have to admit, that at the time I put together the death cloud list, it felt not right.
It has not enough threats and it is really color intensive, in short: it feels not right. I think I will stay in a red shell and set it up in a heavier prison shell.
The list looks good for me and still Boom//bust is a flex slot. It could be replaced with Trinisphere because we already have blood moon and wildfire here.
Trinisphere would help to keep the opponent locked out after wildfire, and helps against storm. It can be found with Ancient stirrings which is a factor as well.
EDIT: Monastery Siege is a favourite card of mine and serves in many ways in the deck.
Usually it can be played turn 2 and it protects me against decay discard and burn maybe also against storm if they have to pay 2 more for each copy of grapshot, but i'm not sure. And it may serve as a card draw engine to recover faster than the opponent or get a win con faster. Even lategame it is not a dead card.
EDIT: Monastery Siege is a favourite card of mine and serves in many ways in the deck.
Usually it can be played turn 2 and it protects me against decay discard and burn maybe also against storm if they have to pay 2 more for each copy of grapshot, but i'm not sure. And it may serve as a card draw engine to recover faster than the opponent or get a win con faster. Even lategame it is not a dead card.
Siege is indeed a good card but it doesn't work that way against Grapeshot. It costs them 2 more to target you with the original spell but all other copies aren't cast. They're simply put onto stack.
Ok thanks for the explanation kavselj, I wasn't quite sure but I almost thought it would not work.
For the list I posted above:
I cut the 2 Boom//Bust in favor for 2 Ensnaring Bridges mainboard, which is a better choice in my opinion. Trinisphere also is quite nice. Now I have the problem in the sideboard, that I don't have anything for grave hate and storm.
Relic of progenitus and ethersworn canonist could be added here.
Maybe pyroclasm could be cut.
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"Master they threatened to darken the sky with their arrows!"
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
Yeah, but it's really more "Disney Evil" than practical. It's like being a bond villain and giving a monologue rather then just shooting them.
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
This is my latest build which I've been playtesting for 7 competitive-but-casual matches as I haven't had enough time to commit to a full FNM.
My primary changes consist of removing Lodestone Golem and adding Chalice of the Void into the main board. Chalice has won me quite a few games almost on it's own but the deck does take a while to actually go for the kill compared to Golems, I also ran into some plays such as T1 with a Surge Node and a Mix Opal you can tick up a Chalice as your opponent hits turn 1-2-3, I did this to a Living End deck and they didn't get a chance to play any spells that game.
Leyline helped a lot against Storm and 8rack in particular I also used it against Abzan and felt it it had been almost necessary - I tried witchbane orb it was too slow.
Finally Engineered Explosives helped against Abzan and Merfolk in particular,
So far I have beenough hit hardest by blue decks, Bant and Esper decks have beaten me with well timed counters and stoney silence and I don't have a lot of great answers for that yet. I I have yet to test against burn, Naya, Affinity or Eldrazi.
Currently playing around with the 4 color tezzeret list that I talked about earlier. It is mostly a mix between the different lists with more of a midrange game plan at heart. I am not sure I like some of the card choices but I am testing them out currently.
So some thoughts on the deck because I keep changing the numbers of various things by like 1-2. I just cut some cards for the combo to make room for 2 Whir of Invention and an Ensnaring Bridge. I'm not really sure sacrificing some speed and consistency is worth the added resiliency that bridge would add. It allows me to run Witchbane Orb in the board which is alright but I am thinking I might want 3 Leyline of Sanctity in the board somehow instead. Haven't tested with them but they would help against Abzan, Jund, Rack, etc. Mainly the discard heavy decks that we hate playing against in addition to what Orb helps with. Most all of the threats in the deck cost 4 mana or more so I'm not terribly worried about an Inquisition of Kozilek but Thoughtseize still hurts.
Comboing off with Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas in the deck is quite fun. It gives us multiple ways to win mid-combo. Playing a Tezzeret during the combo followed by Tezzeret's Gambit and then using his -4 to seal the game. This is a little quicker than going through all of the motions to deck the opponent while it is still an option if they have Leyline of Sanctity or infinite life. Outside of the combo, Tezzeret is the best card in the deck by himself. Most of the other cards require another card to make them useful while Tezzeret plays well with every card in the deck.
I still need to do a lot more testing to fine tune some of the numbers and try a couple more things out but I am liking the direction that this list is headed. The combo is great and great fun while Tezzeret really helps push through those bad match-ups that Wildfire couldn't. Losing Wildfire makes the deck weaker to a wider range of aggro decks game 1 unfortunately. I think the meta is pretty midrangey at the moment and this might be the right call. If faster aggro starts to pick up, I could be back on the Wildfire or Death Cloud plan.
I just bought most of the cards for my various deck lists in paper except the Eldrazi version so I can start to do some playing at some local shops in addition to MTGO.
Between Blood Moon and land destruction, you can often be faster than the decks that you really want graveyard hate against. (dredge and living end)
The list looks pretty solid. 2 Ensnaring Bridge could be nice but it seems most of the time you are wanting to win with Wurmcoil or Steel Hellkite. It could take a long time to get there with Chandra or Aether Grid which could potentially give your opponent too much time to recover. I'm pretty curious to see how it works out for you.
I am really curious about Monastery Siege. I have never played with the card or tested it. Played against it a few times and the opponent mainly used it for the filter effect. Having a maindeck enchantment that protects our artifacts and ourselves against burn sounds pretty nice. I'm really quite curious about this card more than anything and don't have many thoughts aside from that. Did you replace Trinisphere with it? I notice Trinisphere is nowhere in the 75. Storm is starting to pick up some steam and perhaps canonist could see a slot. You have 3 bridge in the sideboard and 2 in the deck. Could cut them from the sideboard completely or drop down to 1 and add two canonist perhaps if you see storm a lot.
Do you win with the combo after a lock? How well does finding it work? Does Trinisphere interfere with that plan or do you try to use the Tezz Ult to close games with trinisphere out? Without a way to tap it like Aether Grid, it could easily shut the combo off.
I'm also pretty curious about Battle at the Bridge. 4 in the board seems like too many. What decks do you bring them in against? Is sorcery speed ever an issue? Is it here to buy you a turn or two until you can stabilize? What do you take out for it when you are bringing them in.
What matches are you bringing in 3 Welding Jars? I am guessing traditional Jund as they are about the only deck that runs enough artifact destruction to warrant their inclusion. How has that been working out? Do you feel like you cut cut them down to 2 in favor of something else?
Stony Silence hurts so hard, especially in such an artifact heavy build. It is one of the reasons I am moving towards Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas. Destroying one Stony Silence just for them to play another is devastating and the game just comes down to who drew sideboard cards. I have thought about Herald of Anguish as a way to help deal with it like some Tezzeret decks have been doing. It is nice to bring him in game 2-3 vs abzan or the like grinding them down for a change.
@redbaron4850
Well I think the list is pretty solid and I found out that mox opal is nuts and Ancient Stirrings does find all I want, still with bridge in the board I don't want to hit wurmcoil or steel Hellkite, that's why I need a colorless win condition which goes around Ensnaring Bridge. So I decided to put in Ugin, the Spirit Dragon and kick 1 Steel Hellkite and 1 Wurmcoil Engine.
Also Trinisphere looked nice on paper, but it's just a best case scenario to play wildfire followed by Trinisphere. Most of the time sphere disrupts me too much to play it in the deck.
Monastery Siege is just simply good and an answer against everything we fear as marchups and is also flexible for filtering.
I also changed my mana base to:
So with the Substitution of my win cons and the mana base I'm quite confident with the deck. So my sideboard needs to be reworked a bit, vandalblast needs a spot. Grave hate and canonist too.
How good is the atlas combo? I see it can win games on the spot, how often and how fast can you combo out in your version?
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"Master they threatened to darken the sky with their arrows!"
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
Yeah, but it's really more "Disney Evil" than practical. It's like being a bond villain and giving a monologue rather then just shooting them.
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
Combo is always plan A, finding Otherworld Atlas or Paradox Engine - even with one copy - is no big deal with effectively 6 Tutor effects. Tezzeret is plan B I would consider a third copy. Ensnaring Bridge can make this option award but there are some workarounds such as blowing up you own bridge with Engineered Explosives.
Battle at the Bridge is a concession to burn which is big in my local meta, but also the fact we can drain a ton of mana into it and gain life really matters a lot and can buy you more than one turn. You can hit for 10+ with this and burn folds fast. I need all four or I will never see them in the matchup where they are critical. I commonly replace Boom/Bust with these when sideboarding
Welding Jar, I had one but got blown out by multiple spot removal against B/G decks. I can reasonably drop one and go down to two.
The Demon seems good and I'm curious to hear how these Black-heavier answers work out.
Our lists are very similar and apart from our choice of Tezzeret looks like we are coming to similar conclusions on card choices. I really can't say enough good things about Chalice of the Void in modern right now, and out ability to modify the counters can feel downright broken. Leyline too, remember it also stops Gifts Ungiven. If I could recommend any two cards to try, those would be it.
@ Heskatet
It is no slower than the all in version that I have some videos on. It could win as early as turn 3 but more realistically turns 4-6. I think I want to run 3 Engines and that is one of the cards I keep adjusting the numbers on as well as a maindeck Wurmcoil engine. Going down to 3 Mox Opal isn't as bad as I thought it would be and I'm still toying with 3 or 4. The great thing about this version is that we can slam a turn 2 Tezzeret like a legacy deck could and he can just win the game alone. I would say the combo wins me about 60% of my games and tezz/Wurmcoil the other 40%. It is really nice to be able to grind the game out while also winning the game on the spot similar to what Abzan collected company can do. I don't think I would be comfortable running less than 3 Atlas or 2 Engine for consistency sake unless it was a prison toolbox build. I take the combo out against burn and some faster all in aggro decks and bring in quite a few sideboard cards. I brought in everything but blood moon and witchbane orb against my last affinity opponent winning games 2 and 3 fairly easily.
@Mizral
I liked chalice but you need to build around it a bit and want it set on either 1 or 2 for different matches. It didn't play nice with surge node, voltaic key, or ancient stirrings. Getting it to two is a little better as it can shut down a lot of things that we don't want to see while not hurting us much. It is a good card for sure and is similar to blood moon in that it can almost win games alone sometimes. It doesn't play nicely with the combo plan so I have not been running it. I think it would do best in mono red or a red/bluelist. I can see it being pretty good in a heavy death shadow meta and haven't played with them much since the deck became so popular. I have used Coretapper to counter a Sun and Moon players nahiri putting 3 charge counters on their chalice while nahiri was on the stack. That felt pretty good.
I can see Battle at the Bridge being good against burn, buying 2-3 turns. I usually find myself with enough life gain between Wurmcoil, Sun Droplet, Elixir of Immortality and Tezz AoB's ultimate. We can quickly get out of burn range unless they have a turn 3 win on the play.
I am still not sure what I could cut for Leyline but will probably do some testing in the future. For now, my threat density and card advantage is decent against everything but 8 rack. I very very rarely run into that deck but it is unfavorable for sure usually.
Hmm ok, maybe I'll try the combo out and test how it works out for me.
Good thing for the combo is, it comes around Leyline of Sanctity, and also let's you draw cards.
Aren't you afraid of giving your opponent a refilled hand with Atlas?
This would mean I need to cut the wildfire plan entirely to make room for the combo, so I would still have bridge and blood moon for disruption, but I am curious if this is enough. Also I will cut 1 mox opal down to 3 which is enough I think.
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"Master they threatened to darken the sky with their arrows!"
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
Yeah, but it's really more "Disney Evil" than practical. It's like being a bond villain and giving a monologue rather then just shooting them.
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
Never draw cards unless you can combo out or are going to lose the game next turn and need immediate action. The main focus should be putting counters on the atlas until it has at least 3 unless you have an engine in hand already. This way you can use it at the opponents end step to draw cards and potentially make them discard down to 7. Your next turn you can draw more cards before you combo to have at least 7 new cards in hand total counting your draw step. Against control decks, they won't have the mana to counter all of the spells you can cast. Once the combo is going, if the opponent has all lands untapped they will have 3-6 mana to work with. Unless they can kill you at instant speed, like ad naus or burn or storm sometimes, It won't matter if they draw their entire deck because they can't do anything with it.
I love giving the opponent their whole deck only for them not to be able to do anything. Only kolaghans command or cryptic command can potentially stop it game 1. Abrupt decay can't hit atlas or engine. Leyline can't stop it. Grave hate can't stop it. Eldrazi titans could if you don't have some way to deal damage or reshuffle your grave as well. Aether grid would get you there though so you have two ways to win mid combo as well.
I run moons in the board mainly for tron. They can help against other matches but I like to surprise the opponent game 3 if it comes to it so they can't just fetch basics. Once they see moon in game one, it will be much less effective in subsequent games except vs tron.
Ok that seems reasonable! Well when playing with Ancient Stirrings i found out, that you just need colorless threats instead of colored ones so I would cut 2 2 2 Ghirapur Aether Grid and with bridges main i want to cut wurmcoil as well, also going down from 4 to 3 mox opal seems ok. This making room for 4 other spots. This would mean, 2 engines and 2 Atlas.
This might not be enough so packing 3 blood moon into the sideboard means +1 Atlas +1 engine +1 Elixir of immortality
This means I still have to rework my sideboard. And I can't take silverbullets because I don't have Whir of Invention in the deck.
3 blood moons and 4 Natures claim are included. Now what can we do against the other top decks?
Vandalblast is a thing.
Monastery Siege is against discard decay and burn, maybe the 4th in the sideboard? Also 2 more bridges
And 2 pithing needle
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"Master they threatened to darken the sky with their arrows!"
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
Yeah, but it's really more "Disney Evil" than practical. It's like being a bond villain and giving a monologue rather then just shooting them.
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
Just had this idea for a death cloud list. Posting it so I don't forget. Will write about it later after some goldfishing. I don't own the lili's so I can't actually test it.
List seems nice so far, but I would consider Lodestone Golem for this build instead of Ugin. Liliana and Tezzeret are both good choices but after a death cloud, Golem comes down quicker and closes the game in 4 turns. Also is fetched with Tezzeret and stirrings. Would be a suggestion of me for this build
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Master they threatened to darken the sky with their arrows!"
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
Yeah, but it's really more "Disney Evil" than practical. It's like being a bond villain and giving a monologue rather then just shooting them.
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
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This list is super super rampy. I built it on tapped out and playtested a few hands. Aside from Chandra, what is the game plan? It doesn't seem to have a problem with casting Chandra on turn 1 or turn 2 but what is the plan for winning with her? Do you think you can reliably uptick her to ultimate? Do you try to use Reforge the Soul to find a Tezzeret's Gambit for a surprise ultimate? The list leaves a lot of questions.
How is reforge the soul? It is hard to judge in goldfishing but I think it would help the opponent as much as us. You can cast it turn 2-3 for more gas or whatever. What are you using this card to find? It combos well with Faithless looting compared to Day's Undoing but I need some help seeing the value in your current list.
I'm not seeing a lot of value from Saheeli Rai. Are you only ever wanting to use her +1? I don't see any real targets for her other two abilities that will have a big effect on the game.
I also notice you are running 3 Inventors' Fair. Is there any reason for this? I don't see any high value artifacts to find early with it.
This list really reminds me of a doubling season deck in what you are trying to do. Here is a list that I think could be easily adapted to the Dice Factory shell while mixing influences from what you are wanting to do.
4 Arbor Elf
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Gideon Jura
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
4 Nahiri, the Harbinger
3 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
1 Ral Zarek
3 Tamiyo, Field Researcher
4 Oath of Nissa
4 Utopia Sprawl
1 Breeding Pool
4 Forest
1 Gavony Township
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Westvale Abbey
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Coretapper
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Artifact [19]
4 Surge Node
4 Coretapper
4 Astral Cornucopia
3 Everflowing Chalice
4 Mox Opal
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
3 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Ral Zarek
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Spell [7]
4 Doubling Season
3 Reforge the Soul
4 Glimmervoid
3 Darksteel Citadel
4 Spire of Industry
1 Westvale Abbey
2 Tendo Ice Bridge
4 Gemstone Mine
This is a way different way to take the deck obviously and I just kind of ran with the idea taking some influences from your deck.
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Alrighty, heck of a lot to reply to here! The list is what I was play-testing to solidify the core of the deck. Batterskull and Banefire would be included to beat/burn into submission. Chandra Ult. would be the main wincon but her +1 with some banefires could be all it needs. Would definitely consider another win-con to go with. Saheeli I viewed as a mini chandra.+1 is useful for scying and pinging and the -2 could copy a win-con or coretapper.
I like reforge the soul as it can miracle early game or we can easily hard cast to reset our hand. any match-up other than affinity shouldnt benefit too much from this, especially if chandra is already down.
Inventors fair is usually at two. but I was experimenting with 3 as we have the mana to pay early and could find a win-con not included in the posted list.
EDIT: I will look into your doubling season list!
Chandra, Torch of Defiance is a good card on her own and could be used to help generate advantage or another win-con. Looking at a deck like this, I think she needs Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas to really help power up the deck and give it yet another solid card on its own. We could possibly squeeze 2-3 Chandras into the list or even up them all to 4, but I think this list is a good place to start.
I don't think we would need to be in green and could substitute the cranes for Ancient Stirrings.
I'm actually really excited to test this list out and it might be the next one I start playing/testing on modo if it does well in my inital goldfishing.
2x Tendo Ice Bridge
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Glimmervoid
4x Spire of Industry
2x Inventors' Fair
1x Academy Ruins
Spells - 7
4x Tezzeret's Gambit
3x Wildfire
Creatures - 10
4x Coretapper
4x Glint-Nest Crane
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Sundering Titan
4x Astral Cornucopia
4x Everflowing Chalice
1x Batterskull
4x Mox Opal
4x Surge Node
3x Voltaic Key
Planeswalkers - 7
3x Saheeli Rai
3x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3x Defense Grid
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Sun Droplet
3x Thought-Knot Seer
1x Lux Cannon
4x Nature's Claim
1x Wurmcoil Engine
Not sure if Felidar Guardian is worth throwing in to the list or splashing for just as an instant win. I don't think it synergizes with any part of the deck and should probably be left to dedicated Saheeli/Guardian decks.
edit: Have been doing a lot of testing with this list. It operates fairly well even without the mana rocks and doesn't completely rely on them like some of the other lists. I've had positive results overall and will continue to play and tune this on mtgo. I managed to get a turn 3 Sundering Titan on the play against Grixis Delver game 1 and they scooped it up. I lost the other two but that first game was so glorious.
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4 Brushland
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Gemstone Caverns
2 Inventors' Fair
1 Plains
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
4 Tendo Ice Bridge
1 Thespian's Stage
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Astral Cornucopia
1 Batterskull
4 Everflowing Chalice
4 Mox Opal
2 Path to Exile
1 Staff of Domination
4 Surge Node
4 Coretapper
4 Eldrazi Displacer
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
Video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDDa7vk-SNI
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just watched, nice vid. Definitely considering Glint-nest Crane more now
After testing the various lists, I think the stronger lists in the current meta are the Eldrazi Factory, Paradox Factory and the Grixis Factory lists. I am currently testing a mix between the Paradox Engine combo list and the Grixis Tezzeret list. The deck needs a secondary way to use charge counters or you will end up with huge amounts of mana and few threats. Lux Cannon can be good on its own and could fill this role, but the Paradox Combo can close games out of nowhere.
I will post the list in the coming days after some final tweaking and sideboard testing.
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Some Planeswalkers which come to mind are:
I will look into a BG shell and maybe put together a nice list
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
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Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
4 Astral Cornucopia
4 Surge node
4 Death Cloud
3 Everflowing Chalice
3 Ancient Stirrings
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Defense Grid
2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Tezzeret's Gambit
4 Coretapper
1 lux cannon
2 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
3 Spire of Industry
3 Tendo Ice Bridge
2 Inventor's Fair
4 Swamp
2 Forest
In the deck Ancient Stirrings seem to be weak also Padeem is a bit underwhelming because of death cloud. I need a way to recover after casting a deathcloud before my enemy does...
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
I have had success with Defense Grid against Grixis Delver, UW Control, UB Control, Grixis Control, Esper Control, Jeskai Control, Blue Moon, Mono U Tron, and possibly Scapeshift. If you don't have a high percentage of these decks in your meta or other decks that run 6+ counterspells, I don't think you should run Defense Grid maindeck. I do enjoy having them somewhere in the 75 for control matches as they make the games so much easier. I don't think they are truly needed but it is nice hate that can be found with our dig cards. They can also be turned into 5/5's with tezzeret so that's a plus.
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It also protects you from EoT plays of your opponent which virtually "slows" them down.
Some decks just board in spell pierce or negate if they know what needs to be countered. Additionally it helps as a wincon if it gets a 5/5 or leeches 2 life with Tezzeret.
Also what do you think of Ancient Stirrings in this list?
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
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Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
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This is the whole reason that I moved Blood Moon to the sideboard. We simply don't have that many slots for high impact cards and we need to maximize our draws if we want the deck to be competitive. Drawing into a card like Blood Moon or Defense Grid when we are behind just feels so bad. I'm starting to be more proactive and put pressure on the opponent making them have to present a clock, interact, or die. Having Tezz as a 4 drop is just so good against decks that hurt us the most. If they disrupt our ramp, we can still slam him down early. Every ability of his synergizes well with the deck and the opponent must deal with him.
The thing with Death Cloud is that it makes us sacrifice. It makes it much harder for us to run creatures since we can't just play things too big for Wildfire. I think Batterskull has a place here. It can be sacced and played again the next turn, eat all sorts of removal and only really dies to Kolaghan's Command maindeck. The discard of Death Cloud is also hard to get around. I usually find myself wanting to cast Wildfire on turn 3 followed by a Wurmcoil Engine or whatever finisher I had in hand. You can't really do this well with Death Cloud and need to cast your finisher before you death cloud, giving your opponent a turn to interact before it can happen. Losing our hand and relying on our topdecks usually means our opponent will catch up with us sooner or later depending on what they are running.
In the list that you posted, you are really only running 4 finishers. I would try to up this number to 6-10 for much better results. I think Padeem can be cut down to a 1 of or even entirely possibly. While great, he doesn't synergize at all with the Death Cloud plan and would only be there to eat other removal that the opponent would have to discard anyways. You could cut the two Padeem for two more Tezzeret as it is a much much stronger card on its own.
Looking at your mana base, I would consider cutting 1-2 Tendo Ice Bridge for another Glimmervoid and or Spire of Industry. The list seems pretty color intensive with Death Cloud, Abrupt Decay, and Tezzeret. In my Sultai list, Voltaic Key is pretty clutch in getting the colors of mana we need on time. Being able to filter our mana by spending a colorless to untap a Cornucopia or Mox Opal helps to cast things like Abrupt decay on turn 2 when we only have Darksteel Citadel. Speaking of Citadel, I notice you have cut them from the list. I think you should be running at least 2 if you have 4 Mox Opal and probably 4 since you have Tezzeret in the list. He makes themm 5/5 indestructible beaters. I have closed out a few games very early this way and it's great fun.
I know you specifically asked about Ancient Stirrings since you feel it is one of the weakest cards in the list. The problem with it is that you don't have many high value colorless cards in the list. I only see you using it to help against discard/artifact destruction early or to possibly hope to find a Defense Grid / Wurmcoil late game. Using it to find some ramp artifact is pretty underwhelming late game when you already have your mana in order.
Not sure what your current sideboard looks like but I would suggest
-1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
-1 Defense Grid
-1 Tezzeret's Gambit
-2 Tendo Ice Bridge
+1 Batterskull
+2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
+1 Glimmervoid
+1 Spire of Industry
This would give you some additional pressure, while also helping with problems in colored mana potentially. Running only 17 lands and no Voltaic Key, I think you need to maximize your colored duals in the form of Blooming Marsh or Darkslick Shores in place of some of the basics. It would help you consistently cast the spells you want to cast on time. If you are interested in cutting Ancient Stirrings, I'm not really sure what you could replace it with. It helps so much sometimes even just getting a land so we can cast our more impactful spells in hand.
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It has not enough threats and it is really color intensive, in short: it feels not right. I think I will stay in a red shell and set it up in a heavier prison shell.
I would put it that way.
3 Surge node
4 Coretapper
3 Wildfire
3 Everflowing Chalice
4 mox Opal
3 Tezzeret's Gambit
4 Ancient Stirrings
2 Boom//Bust
1 Destructive Force
3 blood moon
3 Monastery Siege
2 wurmcoil Engine
2 Ghirapur Aether Grid
1 Steel Hellkite
2 Chandra Torch of defiance
3 spire of industry
3 Darksteel Citadel
2 inventor's Fair
6 Mountain
The list looks good for me and still Boom//bust is a flex slot. It could be replaced with Trinisphere because we already have blood moon and wildfire here.
Trinisphere would help to keep the opponent locked out after wildfire, and helps against storm. It can be found with Ancient stirrings which is a factor as well.
EDIT:
Monastery Siege is a favourite card of mine and serves in many ways in the deck.
Usually it can be played turn 2 and it protects me against decay discard and burn maybe also against storm if they have to pay 2 more for each copy of grapshot, but i'm not sure. And it may serve as a card draw engine to recover faster than the opponent or get a win con faster. Even lategame it is not a dead card.
My sideboard could look like this:
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
Siege is indeed a good card but it doesn't work that way against Grapeshot. It costs them 2 more to target you with the original spell but all other copies aren't cast. They're simply put onto stack.
WBG Elves WBG
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EDH:
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage RG || GWUB Atraxa, Praetors' Voice GWUB
R Zo-Zu the Punisher R || WU Brago, King Eternal WU
UB Gisa and Geralf UB || BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW
For the list I posted above:
I cut the 2 Boom//Bust in favor for 2 Ensnaring Bridges mainboard, which is a better choice in my opinion. Trinisphere also is quite nice. Now I have the problem in the sideboard, that I don't have anything for grave hate and storm.
Relic of progenitus and ethersworn canonist could be added here.
Maybe pyroclasm could be cut.
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
3x Darksteel Citadel
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Glimmervoid
1x Inventors' Fair
5x Island
Artifacts
4x Astral Cornucopia
3x Chalice of the Void
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Everflowing Chalice
4x Mox Opal
1x Otherworld Atlas
1x Paradox Engine
4x Surge Node
1x Trinisphere
1x Voltaic Key
4x Coretapper
Planeswalkers
2x Tezzeret the Seeker
Spells
4x Ancient Stirrings
4x Boom/Bust
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
3x Whir of Invention
4x Battle at the Bridge
3x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Defense Grid
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Spellskite
3x Welding Jar
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Pithing Needle
This is my latest build which I've been playtesting for 7 competitive-but-casual matches as I haven't had enough time to commit to a full FNM.
My primary changes consist of removing Lodestone Golem and adding Chalice of the Void into the main board. Chalice has won me quite a few games almost on it's own but the deck does take a while to actually go for the kill compared to Golems, I also ran into some plays such as T1 with a Surge Node and a Mix Opal you can tick up a Chalice as your opponent hits turn 1-2-3, I did this to a Living End deck and they didn't get a chance to play any spells that game.
Leyline helped a lot against Storm and 8rack in particular I also used it against Abzan and felt it it had been almost necessary - I tried witchbane orb it was too slow.
Finally Engineered Explosives helped against Abzan and Merfolk in particular,
So far I have beenough hit hardest by blue decks, Bant and Esper decks have beaten me with well timed counters and stoney silence and I don't have a lot of great answers for that yet. I I have yet to test against burn, Naya, Affinity or Eldrazi.
1 Academy Ruins
2 Botanical Sanctum
3 Darksteel Citadel
4 Glimmervoid
4 Spire of Industry
2 Inventors' Fair
1 Island
Creatures 4
4 Coretapper
Artifacts 26
4 Astral Cornucopia
4 Everflowing Chalice
4 Surge Node
3 Mox Opal
3 Voltaic Key
4 Otherworld Atlas
2 Paradox Engine
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Ancient Stirrings
2 Whir of Invention
3 Tezzeret's Gambit
Planeswalker 4
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Blood Moon
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Nature's Claim
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Sun Droplet
1 Witchbane Orb
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
So some thoughts on the deck because I keep changing the numbers of various things by like 1-2. I just cut some cards for the combo to make room for 2 Whir of Invention and an Ensnaring Bridge. I'm not really sure sacrificing some speed and consistency is worth the added resiliency that bridge would add. It allows me to run Witchbane Orb in the board which is alright but I am thinking I might want 3 Leyline of Sanctity in the board somehow instead. Haven't tested with them but they would help against Abzan, Jund, Rack, etc. Mainly the discard heavy decks that we hate playing against in addition to what Orb helps with. Most all of the threats in the deck cost 4 mana or more so I'm not terribly worried about an Inquisition of Kozilek but Thoughtseize still hurts.
Comboing off with Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas in the deck is quite fun. It gives us multiple ways to win mid-combo. Playing a Tezzeret during the combo followed by Tezzeret's Gambit and then using his -4 to seal the game. This is a little quicker than going through all of the motions to deck the opponent while it is still an option if they have Leyline of Sanctity or infinite life. Outside of the combo, Tezzeret is the best card in the deck by himself. Most of the other cards require another card to make them useful while Tezzeret plays well with every card in the deck.
I still need to do a lot more testing to fine tune some of the numbers and try a couple more things out but I am liking the direction that this list is headed. The combo is great and great fun while Tezzeret really helps push through those bad match-ups that Wildfire couldn't. Losing Wildfire makes the deck weaker to a wider range of aggro decks game 1 unfortunately. I think the meta is pretty midrangey at the moment and this might be the right call. If faster aggro starts to pick up, I could be back on the Wildfire or Death Cloud plan.
I just bought most of the cards for my various deck lists in paper except the Eldrazi version so I can start to do some playing at some local shops in addition to MTGO.
Between Blood Moon and land destruction, you can often be faster than the decks that you really want graveyard hate against. (dredge and living end)
The list looks pretty solid. 2 Ensnaring Bridge could be nice but it seems most of the time you are wanting to win with Wurmcoil or Steel Hellkite. It could take a long time to get there with Chandra or Aether Grid which could potentially give your opponent too much time to recover. I'm pretty curious to see how it works out for you.
I am really curious about Monastery Siege. I have never played with the card or tested it. Played against it a few times and the opponent mainly used it for the filter effect. Having a maindeck enchantment that protects our artifacts and ourselves against burn sounds pretty nice. I'm really quite curious about this card more than anything and don't have many thoughts aside from that. Did you replace Trinisphere with it? I notice Trinisphere is nowhere in the 75. Storm is starting to pick up some steam and perhaps canonist could see a slot. You have 3 bridge in the sideboard and 2 in the deck. Could cut them from the sideboard completely or drop down to 1 and add two canonist perhaps if you see storm a lot.
Do you win with the combo after a lock? How well does finding it work? Does Trinisphere interfere with that plan or do you try to use the Tezz Ult to close games with trinisphere out? Without a way to tap it like Aether Grid, it could easily shut the combo off.
I'm also pretty curious about Battle at the Bridge. 4 in the board seems like too many. What decks do you bring them in against? Is sorcery speed ever an issue? Is it here to buy you a turn or two until you can stabilize? What do you take out for it when you are bringing them in.
What matches are you bringing in 3 Welding Jars? I am guessing traditional Jund as they are about the only deck that runs enough artifact destruction to warrant their inclusion. How has that been working out? Do you feel like you cut cut them down to 2 in favor of something else?
Stony Silence hurts so hard, especially in such an artifact heavy build. It is one of the reasons I am moving towards Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas. Destroying one Stony Silence just for them to play another is devastating and the game just comes down to who drew sideboard cards. I have thought about Herald of Anguish as a way to help deal with it like some Tezzeret decks have been doing. It is nice to bring him in game 2-3 vs abzan or the like grinding them down for a change.
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Well I think the list is pretty solid and I found out that mox opal is nuts and Ancient Stirrings does find all I want, still with bridge in the board I don't want to hit wurmcoil or steel Hellkite, that's why I need a colorless win condition which goes around Ensnaring Bridge. So I decided to put in Ugin, the Spirit Dragon and kick 1 Steel Hellkite and 1 Wurmcoil Engine.
Also Trinisphere looked nice on paper, but it's just a best case scenario to play wildfire followed by Trinisphere. Most of the time sphere disrupts me too much to play it in the deck.
Monastery Siege is just simply good and an answer against everything we fear as marchups and is also flexible for filtering.
I also changed my mana base to:
So with the Substitution of my win cons and the mana base I'm quite confident with the deck. So my sideboard needs to be reworked a bit, vandalblast needs a spot. Grave hate and canonist too.
How good is the atlas combo? I see it can win games on the spot, how often and how fast can you combo out in your version?
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
Combo is always plan A, finding Otherworld Atlas or Paradox Engine - even with one copy - is no big deal with effectively 6 Tutor effects. Tezzeret is plan B I would consider a third copy. Ensnaring Bridge can make this option award but there are some workarounds such as blowing up you own bridge with Engineered Explosives.
Battle at the Bridge is a concession to burn which is big in my local meta, but also the fact we can drain a ton of mana into it and gain life really matters a lot and can buy you more than one turn. You can hit for 10+ with this and burn folds fast. I need all four or I will never see them in the matchup where they are critical. I commonly replace Boom/Bust with these when sideboarding
Welding Jar, I had one but got blown out by multiple spot removal against B/G decks. I can reasonably drop one and go down to two.
The Demon seems good and I'm curious to hear how these Black-heavier answers work out.
Our lists are very similar and apart from our choice of Tezzeret looks like we are coming to similar conclusions on card choices. I really can't say enough good things about Chalice of the Void in modern right now, and out ability to modify the counters can feel downright broken. Leyline too, remember it also stops Gifts Ungiven. If I could recommend any two cards to try, those would be it.
It is no slower than the all in version that I have some videos on. It could win as early as turn 3 but more realistically turns 4-6. I think I want to run 3 Engines and that is one of the cards I keep adjusting the numbers on as well as a maindeck Wurmcoil engine. Going down to 3 Mox Opal isn't as bad as I thought it would be and I'm still toying with 3 or 4. The great thing about this version is that we can slam a turn 2 Tezzeret like a legacy deck could and he can just win the game alone. I would say the combo wins me about 60% of my games and tezz/Wurmcoil the other 40%. It is really nice to be able to grind the game out while also winning the game on the spot similar to what Abzan collected company can do. I don't think I would be comfortable running less than 3 Atlas or 2 Engine for consistency sake unless it was a prison toolbox build. I take the combo out against burn and some faster all in aggro decks and bring in quite a few sideboard cards. I brought in everything but blood moon and witchbane orb against my last affinity opponent winning games 2 and 3 fairly easily.
@Mizral
I liked chalice but you need to build around it a bit and want it set on either 1 or 2 for different matches. It didn't play nice with surge node, voltaic key, or ancient stirrings. Getting it to two is a little better as it can shut down a lot of things that we don't want to see while not hurting us much. It is a good card for sure and is similar to blood moon in that it can almost win games alone sometimes. It doesn't play nicely with the combo plan so I have not been running it. I think it would do best in mono red or a red/bluelist. I can see it being pretty good in a heavy death shadow meta and haven't played with them much since the deck became so popular. I have used Coretapper to counter a Sun and Moon players nahiri putting 3 charge counters on their chalice while nahiri was on the stack. That felt pretty good.
I can see Battle at the Bridge being good against burn, buying 2-3 turns. I usually find myself with enough life gain between Wurmcoil, Sun Droplet, Elixir of Immortality and Tezz AoB's ultimate. We can quickly get out of burn range unless they have a turn 3 win on the play.
I am still not sure what I could cut for Leyline but will probably do some testing in the future. For now, my threat density and card advantage is decent against everything but 8 rack. I very very rarely run into that deck but it is unfavorable for sure usually.
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Good thing for the combo is, it comes around Leyline of Sanctity, and also let's you draw cards.
Aren't you afraid of giving your opponent a refilled hand with Atlas?
This would mean I need to cut the wildfire plan entirely to make room for the combo, so I would still have bridge and blood moon for disruption, but I am curious if this is enough. Also I will cut 1 mox opal down to 3 which is enough I think.
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
I love giving the opponent their whole deck only for them not to be able to do anything. Only kolaghans command or cryptic command can potentially stop it game 1. Abrupt decay can't hit atlas or engine. Leyline can't stop it. Grave hate can't stop it. Eldrazi titans could if you don't have some way to deal damage or reshuffle your grave as well. Aether grid would get you there though so you have two ways to win mid combo as well.
I run moons in the board mainly for tron. They can help against other matches but I like to surprise the opponent game 3 if it comes to it so they can't just fetch basics. Once they see moon in game one, it will be much less effective in subsequent games except vs tron.
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This might not be enough so packing 3 blood moon into the sideboard means +1 Atlas +1 engine +1 Elixir of immortality
This means I still have to rework my sideboard. And I can't take silverbullets because I don't have Whir of Invention in the deck.
3 blood moons and 4 Natures claim are included. Now what can we do against the other top decks?
Vandalblast is a thing.
Monastery Siege is against discard decay and burn, maybe the 4th in the sideboard? Also 2 more bridges
And 2 pithing needle
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
4 Astral Cornucopia
3 Everflowing Chalice
3 Mox Opal
4 Surge Node
3 Voltaic Key
Land (17)
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Inventors' Fair
3 Darksteel Citadel
4 Glimmervoid
4 Spire of Industry
3 Blooming Marsh
4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Death Cloud
3 Tezzeret's Gambit
Instant (4)
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
Planeswalker (7)
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Coretapper
1 Wurmcoil Engine
Modern
xWBAffinityBWx
BBBVampiresBBB
BURGDice FactoryGRUB
Check out the Primer!
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy