Hey NateG cool deck and write up. This thread had been previously discussing having a more slower/consistent version and your shell seems to fit that style. Few comments and critiques:
I actually recknognized the mana base from some of Hoogland's Kiki versions, esp ravine/grove/fire-lit. If want to be able to cast kiki consistently and play pia it made sense
Pia and huntmaster seems redundant. I'd pick one and use other for another toolbox slot.
I like the kiki and had suggested it as it gives an alternative win, works with lark, and works at instant speed
Not sure I like the 1 Chord here. You don't have Resto Angel to make a truly instant speed 2 turn combo, and with 1x chord and 1x witness you're not going to have both very often. You do have the token creators but no wall of roots, I think based on prior kiki lists if you do want chord you'll probably end up with 2.
Sun titan + lark in MB seems too much. Though as I noted before Lark can pull kiki + felidar from grave together, something could not do with angel.
I like idea of reflector mage overall, esp due to blink/clone.
Btw Shelldell I'd try out a copy of spellskite if you have one MD. It could play a bit like a maindeck forge tender by negating burn/bolt to interrupt combo. Also 4 toughness helps against aggro. Yes its not a blink target but should have enough. And as noted its a target for rallier also. Expensive but can also redirect ballista pings.
I decided to try shaving 2x Lotus Cobra for the 3rd Hierarch and a Reflector Mage. I then substituted the 2x Wall of Omens with utility 2-drops, Scavenging Ooze and Selfless Spirit (didn’t have Spellskite), with the reasoning that perhaps the extra consistency of Wall wasn't as important if the ramp package was less manic bipolar sans Cobras and perhaps the blocking power wouldn't be as important if we could flicker/clone Reflector Mage.
In the side I swapped Harmonic Sliver in over Reclamation Sage, and made the somewhat agonizing cuts of -1 Stony Silence and -1 Eidolon of Rhetoric (there's one Storm player that comes occasionally but we've never played and I'd never had any other reason to bring Eidolon in yet) in order to squeeze in two copies of Unified Will.
Match 1: Naya 8-Whack (1-2)
G1 I make a mistake and think I'm against a naya burn list and I choose to Path Nacatl T1 rather than shocking myself to play Hierarch. He ends up overwhelming me with a Whack wave and I have no blockers. G2 the opponent starts developing his board with BTE, Loyalist, and one of the Whacks but Bird into T2 Courser stabilizes, followed by T3 evolve Birds into Finks -> T4 Evolve Finks into Gearhulk naming Courser as my enchantment, Finks as creature, and Gearhulk as artifact. Opponent scoops. G3 I keep a hand with Engineered Explosives, Reflector Mage, and Staticaster with a Bird and 2 Fetches. He plays Nacatl, I play Birds into Reflector Mage on Nacatl. T3 he dumps ~4 creatures onto the board and Whacks me for a big chunk of life. Unfortunately none share the same name so Staticaster stays in my hand and I play Explosives on 1 and pass. He plays several more hastey whack'd creatures, I detonate explosives and take out 2-3 (and my own bird) but still take a bunch of damage. Unfortunately I hadn't drawn any more lands, so with my Bird fried I'm stuck on 2 lands and die to the remaining Whack squad. SB in: Explosives, Staticaster, Gearhulk || out: Eternal Witness, Rallier, Saheeli
Match 2: Bant (Non-Vizier) Knightfall (0-2)
G1 I play Wooded Foothills, fetching Forest into Birds and pass. My opponent plays Wooded Foothills, fetching forest into Hierarch and passes. We look at each other and laugh, each one wondering if we're playing the mirror. We start setting up and he reflects my Finks with Reflector Mage, and then when I try to cast Felidar to blink an Oath he exiles Felidar with Spell Queller. From there he responds to something with CoCo to Quell another one of my spells (forget which) and Vendillion Clique to strip my Evolution. He's got me way beat on the board. I topdeck Reflector Mage, bounce his Queller to resolve Felidar Guardian, play Saheeli, tick down targeting Felidar... and Felidar eats a Path. Almost! Next turn his hoard cleans up. G2 I keep a hand with Saheeli, Path, Evolution, and Voice. Voice sticks followed by a topdecked Gaddock Teeg to shut CoCo off completely. He plays Knight, which I Path. He then plays a second Knight, Selfless Spirit, and a Voice. I block with Voice, evolve Gaddock into Felidar, but then die with Saheeli in hand. SB in: 2 Gaddock, Linvala, Gearhulk || out: Ooze, E-Witness, ??? (can't remember, sorry)
Match 3: WBu Polymorph Tokens (2-1)
G1 I lead with Hierarch, and when I see him pass with just an Island I figure it's control and slam Saheeli T2. He passes again and I play Felidar to combo out. I didn't get to see any cards but from the UW I assume it's UW control (although in retrospect this was a weird assumption since I would've expected him to play Mana leak / Path / something on T2 last game. G2 I board in all my Ux control stuff and basically try to run back the same play: Dork into Saheeli. On the end of my Turn 2 he plays Raise the Alarm into Intangible Virtue on his turn, and kills Saheeli with 2x 2/2 Soldier Tokens. That was a surprise! I play Finks into Felidar blinking Finks but he plays Spectral Procession into Smuggler's Copter and I can't keep up with his sky beats. G3 I sideboard against tokens, lol. I play Gaddock into Voice, and he gets some soldiers down and exiles Voice with Anguished Unmaking. I evolve Voice into Felidar, blinking an Oath to find Saheeli. Next turn I combo out. SB game 3 in: Explosives, 2 Gaddock, Staticaster, Glen Elendra, Lark, Gearhulk || out: 3 Path, Ooze, Reflector Mage, Huntmaster, Thragtusk
Match 4: My opponent drops /shrug
Overall 2-2
Thoughts:
Man! Spell Queller does a lot of work against this deck, disrupting the combo both on the stack and flying over blockers to snipe Saheeli, ensuring that you can pretty much only cast her the turn you're looking to combo out. The only answer I can think of (beyond running more spot removal ala NateG's Lightning Helix SB) might be to run an Angel of Sanctions to evolve into in order to exile Queller -- even if they kill Angel the Queller won't get to counter another spell. Otherwise we just have to hope we can get Linvala / Lark in the skies or get a Gearhulk wipe.
In general I feel like most of my game losses (barring misplays) were because I failed to stabilize fast enough, got behind on tempo, with a couple games made worse by mana screw.
This is the second night I've run Scavenging Ooze and Selfless Spirit and they are obviously great cards, especially against midrange and control, but I didn't really get to see either shine in these aggressive matchups. Wall feels better to me in the main for my meta, and I'm tempted to bring those back in since the cantrip effect means they at least cycle and provide Evo fodder even in matches where they can't block G1.
I'm less sure of how I feel about 2x Cobra vs Hierarch / Reflector Mage. It's tempting to wonder whether an early Cobra could've helped me keep pace with 8-Whack or Knightfall better. I still think Reflector Mage is a solid card, though, and having another source of Exalted via the 3rd Hierarch is nice. The Reflector Mage might also become some other utility card like MB Angel of Sanctions or a second copy of one of the existing 3-drops for added consistency.
The first thing I want to say is that this manabase is absolute garbage. I'm not sure why, but every single shock land in the deck is a forest. Outside of mana dorks, there are not duplicate red or blue sources. This made fetching very awkward sometimes. If I had a basic forest in hand and two fetch lands and I wanted to cast Voice on turn 2 and Saheeli on turn 3. You just cannot. If you get a white source from a fetchland, it must be Temple Garden, cutting you off red or blue. If you get a blue source, you cut yourself off from red and white. If you get a red source, you cut yourself off from white and blue. The terrible manabase cost me game 2 against Storm. I had Noble Hierarch in play with Breeding Pool, Stomping Ground, a Fetchland, and two basics. Felidar guardian is also already on the battlefield. I cast Saheeli rai by tapping stomping ground, breeding pool and basic. My storm opponent remands. I think I have the game for sure, but then I realize that there is no other red land in the entire deck... I don't mind losing to a poor matchup, but it frustrates the hell out of me to lose to build error. Not every aspect of the manabase was infuriating. The high number of basics did end up helping me against burn. I think the manabase needs some tweaking. I will definitely being going back to something closer to my original mana base.
Ok, now that I'm done with that little rant, I can move on to talk about the rest of the deck. Overall, I was very happy with how the deck performed. Sun Titan was probably my MVP of the night. He won me two games single-handedly; not even from combo. The board presence that he offers is just irreplaceable. I had no trouble getting up to 6 mana to hard cast him; he works so well with Renegade Rallier. Lotus cobra didn't really do anything too crazy. I don't think I ever got a chance to untap with lotus cobra. He seemed to be a must-kill card for my opponents, which I'm ok with; just wish he didn't die so easily. I'm going to keep testing 2 in the main. I was very happy with Scavenging Ooze; it was good against literally every deck I played against. With the reflector mage in the maindeck, I felt like 3 path to exile's is the correct number. Despite the importance of felidar guardian for the combo, I felt like using up all of my 4-drop slots for it felt a bit much. You have Oath of Nissa, and Eldritch Evolution to find them. For those reasons, I'm going to drop a Felidar Guardian for a Huntmaster of the Fells in the maindeck. I might do P&K Nalaar, but that might be tough on the manabase. I like her more that Huntmaster. Being able to Evolution away a Voice into a P&K is just filthy. I'm on the fence about Thragtusk. He was good against burn and control, but Reveillark might be a better choice. I'll have to do some more testing to come to a definitive conclusion on the 5-drops.
I was in kind of a rush and only managed to put together a sideboard at the last minute. Most of the card choices were based on what I had with me. The Worship ended up being relevant against burn, among other cards. I'm still not completely sold on it, but I think I will keep testing it. Stony Silence didn't come up in my matches tonight, but they're not going anywhere. I was very happy with the Tireless Tracker against Jeskai Control. Magus of the Moon is also locked for a sideboard slot; same with Reclamation Sage. When I was sideboarding tonight, I was thinking about the 4th path to exile and wondering what matchups I would really want it in. I came to the conclusion that It's not very good, and that I would rather go back to the Lightning Helix that I ran in my top8 list. Not certain this is correct, but I feel like there are way more matchups where you want to deal with little dudes than matchups where you need to deal with big dudes. Examples would be against Elves, Burn, Affinity, Storm even, and other creature combo decks. Selfless Spirit felt great against control. Again, I didn't play against Affinity tonight, but I feel like Kataki is probably a bit overkill, considering I'm also playing the Rec Sage. Engineered Explosives felt very clunky. It's definitely getting the axe. Obstinate Baloth and Kitchen Finks got boarded in against burn, but I never saw them. I think I might cut Finks because its fairly low impact. Baloth gains the same amount of life, but is just bananas against Jund and 8-Rack, and is still just a solid threat against other midrange decks. Phyrexian revoker didn't end up being relevant tonight. However, Revoker really helped me out in a tough match in the Modern Classic last weekend, so I can't justify cutting it quite yet. I think I'm going to try something crazy in the board moving forward: 4 Leyline of Sanctity. I know it sounds idiotic, but our two worst matchups are decks that combo directly to our face (Storm and Scapeshift). It's also very good against Burn and Ad Nauseam. Unlike some other decks playing Leyline of Sanctity, we can actually cast it on turn 3 or 4 without any issues. We'll see how it performs in testing. If it doesn't work out, I'll have to rethink those last 4 sideboard slots.
Here is the list I will likely be testing with moving forward:
Let me know what you guys think about my FNM recap. Share your own stories with the deck; I'd love to hear your input and criticism about the list, as well as new suggestions. Until next time!
I agree that the manabase you tested was suboptimal (especially the 2nd Temple Garden over Sacred Foundry) but I think you might want fetches 9-10 if you're going to keep 2x Lotus Cobra and 3x Rallier (I am personally on 12 fetches / 5 basics).
I'm still a little hesitant about shaving a Felidar... yes there are 3x copies of Evolution but I think I will continue to prioritize the combo in my list for now.
What was your deck config G2/3 vs Jeskai?
What is your plan for Eldrazi Tron in your list moving forwards?
heh, sorry about the storm anecdote, but Steam Vents maybe an overkill? Switch Misty to Arid Mesa to fetch all colors without it. With Reflector Mage the mana would be adjusted, I play 2 Temple Garden when I don't have to fetch for non-GW cards besides Saheeli. Switching the 2nd Temple Garden is a freebie and while I'd rather not, going to 5 shocks is ok if you want the insurance, especially when running additional U/R cards.
Storm being back on Remands is worring, I liked it more when they didn't have interaction for Evo > Eidolon, or just 1of bounce spell
The Shocks being Forests is for T1 G, the deck has keepable 1 landers especially with Oaths. I don't like mulling Birds + Plains hands.
The 5 basics are there so you don't take 10 damage when you're returning fetches with ralliers multiple times in a game. If you're keeping the 3 ralliers keep an eye on the damage you take from lands with fewer basics and 6 shocks.
You can do the Forest > Voice > Saheeli with any of the 10 one drops before, or 2 Cobras after. Or have alternative plays, it would be a hyper specific situation that you have exactly Forest, Voice, Saheeli, Guardian and nothing else. Regardless, the switch is easy, so sure.
Depends on a lot of factors, but generally I want to hold Cobra with fetch for T3 if I have other play on T2, to get some value before they react.
The Evo Voice into P&K depends on utility, Evo Voice into Rallier gives you the same power and keeps Voice around for opponent to deal with. Evoing Voice is ok, but it still sets us back.
Thragtusk is the last flex slot I cut when tinkering. Just the prevalence of Path, plus it's just about the best Saheeli and Guardian target. No need to worry about yard contents (Sun Titan and Lark). The shift from Bolt to Push is nice as well.
Worship and Leyline are interesting. I mentioned Leyline, it's useful against a good portion of the meta and fixes the things we need. Would 2x Leyline be fine, or is 3-4 preferable just to have it T0?
Thoughts:
Man! Spell Queller does a lot of work against this deck, disrupting the combo both on the stack and flying over blockers to snipe Saheeli, ensuring that you can pretty much only cast her the turn you're looking to combo out. The only answer I can think of (beyond running more spot removal ala NateG's Lightning Helix SB) might be to run an Angel of Sanctions to evolve into in order to exile Queller -- even if they kill Angel the Queller won't get to counter another spell. Otherwise we just have to hope we can get Linvala / Lark in the skies or get a Gearhulk wipe.
I don't know about a plan against Queller that includes Evo. Especially when they have Company to 1, find Queller and 2, get card advantage while you sac your creatures. If they Queller the Evo, you have to sac 2nd creature to cast it from under the Queller. I would think about at least shaving copies of Evo, if not cutting it. But yeah, Voice, Teeg, Angel, Lark are good.
Better get that Eidolon back in there if the 8whack person comes back! I like ralliers vs 8whack, returning 2 drops that trade is what you want. You can cut Saheeli completely, don't need combo, you win with 4-5 drops they can't attack into. Witness maybe slow, but it also trades and returns path/blocker, Saheeli does less I think. My plan is to clog the board with everything and playing Saheeli is taking a turn off.
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If you don't keep up with Hoogland, we should now expect Orbs of Warding from Gx Tron. Also with all the Saheeli buzz people may include cards to counter it. I like to have Qasali Pridemage in board for Torpor Orb, otherwise Rec Sage and Path handle most of the hate. I got old school Rakdos Charmed on mtgo a while ago, I guess it's relevant for Dredge and Hollow/Vine things?
Hi everyone!
I recently started playing Saheeli Evolution and after stumbling upon this thread, I finally created an account to join the discussion. I've read the forum here and there, but never posted. While I am new to this specific deck, I've played similar decks for years: My first Modern deck was Kiki-Pod back in 2012, later I switched to Melira Pod and played that until the Pod-ban in 2015. Afterwards I experimented with Infect, Gifts Control, Death Cloud, Abzan Company, Protean Hulk Combo and other fringe decks for roughly two years and with mixed results, until a friend sent me a list I fell in love with at first sight: Abzan Midrange with Eldritch Evolution, with no combo at all. I played that for the most part of this year to great success at my LGS, beating Death's Shadow and control decks to pulp left and right, but the local metagame has shifted and become unfavorable for an Abzan deck with a greedy mana base. After some annoying losses to Magus of the Moon, Spreading Seas and All is Dust, I reluctantly decided the Siege Rhinos had to get shelfed for the time being.
Since my brother repeatedly went undefeated with his Vizier Company list, often thanks to Magus of the Moon, I looked at building a similar deck. Some mediocre attempts at Naya Evolution Midrange led me to remembering the Saheeli Rai combo, and I built a list featuring that. After comparing my list with various Saheeli lists online and tinkering a bit more by myself, I had some promising results in the last couple of tournaments.
Here is my current list:
I obviously have couple of card choices that are different from what people use in this thread.
Most lists run the full four Felidar Guardian or at least three, but I started with only one and recently added number two. I just don't think the card has enough impact outside of the combo, so I want to avoid drawing multiples in games where interaction makes the combo plan unattractive. With two copies, three Evolutions and four Oaths to dig for them I still combo often enough, but my turn 3 or 4 win rate is certainly lower. Basically, I want access to the combo, I just don't to rely on it too heavily.
When I first started with the deck, I had three Wall of Omens in it. I quickly noticed that in a metagame of UW Control, Death's Shadow, Vizier Company, Affinity, Eldrazi Tron, and Storm, having an 0/4 blocker on the ground has next to zero value. Occasionally it brickwalled a Goblin Guide or Matter Reshaper, but more often it was extremely low impact. Most decks either don't care about attacking, or have lots of creatures with 4+ power. So I tried to think of alternative 1- or 2-drops, and most of those have been discussed in this thread somewhere. I personally didn't like Scavenging Ooze, Selfless Spirit or Lotus Cobra for various reasons.
Since the choice to "join the dark side" and play Blood Moon effects was one of the reasons I even switched to this deck from my prior Abzan deck, having good mana is a big concern. Enter Abundant Growth. I always liked that card, it's cheap, replaces itself just like Wall of Omens, and provides basically perfect mana fixing all on its own, even through Blood Moon, Spreading Seas, Fulminator Mage or Tectonic Edge. Also, it can enchant a fetchland, which saves 1-3 points of life and keeps the fetchland around for later use (triggering Renegade Rallier or Tireless Tracker). So, one of the Wall of Omens became Abundant Growth, and I have been very happy with the one copy.
But also, I wanted more proactive cards, something to keep my opponent busy so I could set up either a combo win or generate value in the meantime. I thought about Tarmogoyf, but that's just a vanilla and not always very big in this deck. Just not the right card with Death's Shadow outgrowing it. Somehow I had the idea of trying out Heart of Kiran, and it's been quite impressive so far. Playing it on turn 2 and following it up with a Saheeli represents a lot of pressure: 4 damage a turn in the air plus Saheeli's ping, with the option to block too thanks to vigilance. But there are also various 3 power creatures in the deck that can crew it. Having a huge flyer early in the game is great against Affnity, Spell Queller, and decks that try to block on the ground. It snipes planeswalkers very well, dodges sorcery removal like Supreme Verdict or Chandra Torch of Defiance, forces opponents to use removal on your turn (which Voice likes a lot), and blocks Etched Champion. The only real problem I encountered so far is Kolaghan's Command, but that card will be a 2-for-1 if you have artifacts or not, so a single Heart of Kiran seems acceptable. I really like that it gives the deck a completely different angle by being an aggressive 2 mana play that offers lots of small upsides. Sure, there is the very real risk of it doing nothing because there is nothing to crew it with, but so far it worked well for me.
And finally, after having some encounters with Ensnaring Bridge, Ghostly Prison, Chalice of the Void and Cranial Plating, I wanted to have a Disenchant effect in my maindeck. A single Qasali Pridemage can be tutored, copied, returned, and also just attack for 3. Low risk, high reward in my eyes.
In addition to Pridemage, I also run the unusual split of 4 Hierarch/2 Bird. I've had a lot of success with my previous deck thanks to also having five exalted creatures in my deck. Not only does each exalted trigger deal damage, quite often they enable you to attack when otherwise you wouldn't have been able to run into that Thought-Knot Seer or Knight of the Reliquary at all. Sometimes that third Noble Hierarch means attacking for 5 instead of staying at home. It all plays into what I wrote earlier: the wish to present a proactive gameplan and to apply some early pressure in order to force the opponent to respond on multiple axes.
Less Birds, more Hierarchs, means slightly less red mana, but that can easily be adressed by fetching accordingly (usually Stomping Ground as one of the first lands). In exchange, I get more impact from my mana dorks.
Since my metagame is rich with Eldrazi, Affinity and Vizier Company, I moved Linvala into my maindeck, and I like what the card does in those matchups. But just having that 3/4 flying body is surprisingly relevant in some other matchups: As much as Death's Shadow likes losing life, if you gum up the ground with Voice of Resurgence, a big flyer can end the game quickly. Also, it outsizes Flickerwisp, Spell Queller, Vendilion Clique and Smuggler's Copter.
My removal suite is also irregular: Just one Path to Exile, but two Reflector Mages and two Fiery Justices. This is mostly due to the Magus of the Moon / Blood Moon plan, since letting the opponent search a free basic land isn't really my intention. I've never been a fan of Path anyway, since removing a Dark Confidant or Devoted Druid on turn 2 can backfire into an early planeswalker or Collected Company respectively. Reflector Mage is a much more powerful early answer, and Fiery Justice can really turn games around, especially against Death's Shadow. Justice is also very very good against planeswalkers, sometimes even taking out a random Snapcaster Mage or Scavening Ooze alongside the Gideon or Liliana.
What are your thoughts on my list? Please give me some feedback!
Also, could someone comment a little on Angel of Sanctions for me please? I see that card in many lists, but I don't fully understand its appeal. In some matchups it seems awfully slow, and in others you have expect it to get removed, maybe even in the middle of combat, which can lead to nasty blowouts. Which matchups is it meant for, and does it perfom well? Is it actually playable when Path to Exile can remove it so easily?
Angel is difficult to assess. It’s a little overcosted for its stats but it can always answer random hate cards like Worship, Pithing Needle etc that your opponent might bring in. In these situations siding in Reclamation Sage feels bad if you draw it but don’t see a hate piece but Angel is at least a flying 3/4 threat that can also cover creatures and Planeswalkers. Having a catch all at the top of your curve also feels better to Evolve into rather than Evoing for Pridemage and then paying 1 to take care of Worship, for instance.
I’m starting to think that most of the utility options should be in the 3-5 CMC range while keeping my 2-drops devoted to setup of some kind.
@Emzed
Welcome to the discussion!
Concerning your list, I think you are doing two contradictory things: using justice rather than path indicates you want to go all in on the combo while controlling the board but using only 2 guardians significantly reduces your chances of going off. If you're on the justice plan, play 4 guardians. Of course, in this case, you might actually want to rethink the number of ETB triggers you are playing, which are the main reason you find guardian bad (growth is a bit suspicious). If you must shave guardians, keep them at 3 minimum, because lower numbers get too inconsistent.
That's certainly right, and kind of I noticed that problem myself already. Fiery Justice is best when the opponent's life total is irrelevant and I win via combo, yet my deck is light on combo pieces. However, quite often Justice represents such a big swing that giving my opponent some life is not a problem, even if I allow them to live an extra turn that way. So, while there is no synergy, I just like the raw power of Justice so much that I think I can get away with it.
Concerning ETB triggers: Which ones can you suggest that are actually good? If Felidar Guardian is a 1/4 that draws a card via Wall of Omens, it's still pretty unexciting. The only ones I really like at this point are Oath of Nissa, Reflector Mage and Eternal Witness (as well as cmc4+ cards but those are less relevant because I need cards to curve into FG). Renegade Rallier can be insane too, but only if there is actually a relevant thing to bring back, which is very unreliable. Lands and mana dorks usually barely matter at that point, and a Voice just isn't what you want against some matchups. Oath is always great, but doesn't hit the graveyard very often (and if there is one in the grave, then almost always there will also be one in play to be flickered). Maybe I should finally give Blade Splicer a try, I've been considering that for a while. Kitchen Finks is another option, but the value of flickering that is very matchup dependent.
So your assessments of Angel of Sanctions mostly confirm my own opinion on it: It's slow, not all that reliable, and more of a safety net than a pillar to lean on. I have one lying around, so maybe I'll give it a try some time, but I don't really have high hopes for it.
Has anyone considered or tested Glorybringer yet? It's very powerful against creatures and planeswalkers, hits reasonably hard when you're just racing (deals damage faster than Thragtusk, Reveillark or Angel of Sanctions) and has really nice synergy with Saheeli and Guardian. It does nothing when it runs right into a Path to Exile or Dismember, though, which makes it a more risky option.
Has anyone considered or tested Glorybringer yet? It's very powerful against creatures and planeswalkers, hits reasonably hard when you're just racing (deals damage faster than Thragtusk, Reveillark or Angel of Sanctions) and has really nice synergy with Saheeli and Guardian. It does nothing when it runs right into a Path to Exile or Dismember, though, which makes it a more risky option.
that's actually interesting, I never thought about Exert. Glorybringer may work, the cost should be manageable. The removal is nice, I can see Evoing into it to kill something relevant. Haste allows blinking it after untapping or just topdecked Guardian.
What about Glory-bound Initiate? 3 power 2 drop trades up, brought back with Rallier, hits for 4 lifelink, better copy target than Finks. Could be quite efficient. I'll try 2-3 Initiate + 1 Glorybringer.
As for the earlier discussion: Fiery Justice shouldn't be maindeck-able card. I wanted to point out you are giving them a turn, but you did it for me. What do you think are the % of games where you give them a turn with Justice compared to the % of games where a land from Path is relevant? On top of that consider the 3 cmc, sorcery speed and the fact that Time Walk has greater upside than Rampant Growth.
I think you should just play Path, but if you really don't want to, there's still Bolt/Helix or Detention Sphere on 3cmc sorcery speed.
Heart of Kiran is interesting, certainly powerful, but you don't really have "various 3 power creatures", you have 2, unless you want Tusk or Titan to drive. Biggest problem I see are the 0 power dorks, if it could utilize those it would be much more appealing. Seems like Ralliers would really get along with Heart of Kiran, they can return it and crew, wouldn't you want 2 or 3? Abundant Growth actually resembles Oath of Nissa, like a really bad Oath #5. I can see the utility, but we can probably slot in a more powerful card.
So, what's our current discussion status? I guess we are not sure whether to play the 4th guardian, how grindy we should be, what is a good mana sink (e.g. Scooze) to play as a singleton main and Reflector Mage vs. 4th path?
Concerning moon, I think we established that it's bad to bring it in unless it hoses the wincon (e.g. Valakut) and bring only magus against tricolor midrange things. I think we also agree that Harmonic Sliver is better than Reclamation Sage?
I have to admit the 3 Felidars are intriguing, just because we have the 3 Evo. Freeing the 4+ spot is valuable. With that said, I'm still on 4, I like my free wins. I think we are a combo deck at the core and want to maximalize those chances.
Harmonic Sliver: I actually value the 2 power of Rec Sage. Sliver is absolutely better in Affinity, but anything else? For other decks there shouldn't be a difference in 2 vs 3 naturalize. If you can board Sage for UW control (D.sphere/seas) and clock them after verdict for 2 instead of 1 I'd say it's relevant. Same with Ad Naus, if you want to bring it in for Pentad Prism / early Unlife, the pressure is relevant. IDK, they are both good, I wouldn't say strictly better.
To have that double-naturalize effect, you need exactly Saheeli, not just blink. We probably don't side her out in affinity, but it can depend on the level of hate we're on. Affinity is the best aggro/combo deck in terms of killing Saheeli, they have explosive power and mostly fly over our blockers. They can reliably kill T2 Saheeli. We are probably on the hate+value plan, it may depend on sideboard. If we're not racing, shaving copies or boarding out Saheeli would be reasonable and you start loosing the advantage of the Sliver.
I guess Lantern has the targets, but we really care about Bridge and maybe Needle, not much else. The pressure can be relevant as they sometimes take a while to find Bridge. It's a weird matchup.
I'm not down on the Sliver, I'll keep it in mind and try to notice which is relevant in games.
Heart of Kiran is interesting, certainly powerful, but you don't really have "various 3 power creatures", you have 2, unless you want Tusk or Titan to drive. Biggest problem I see are the 0 power dorks, if it could utilize those it would be much more appealing. Seems like Ralliers would really get along with Heart of Kiran, they can return it and crew, wouldn't you want 2 or 3?
I have 1 Tireless Tracker, 1 Renegade Rallier, 1 Linvala, 1 Thragtusk, 1 Sun Titan, 4 Saheeli Rai, 4 Voices that can generate large tokens, and creatures with 1 or 2 power that can team up to crew. Gavony Township also helps to crew occasionally. If they aren't needed to block, my summoning sick Tusk or Titan will absolutely jump into the Heart to deal 4 damage or block a flyer. It might still be too greedy in the end, but so far the Heart exceeded my own expectations. I thought I'd just quickly test this crazy idea to get it out of my system and verify that it's terrible, but it actually somehow works. If Heart is good, it's really really good, since it's a very fast clock, one-hits most planeswalkers and trumps everything in the air except Celestial Colonnade and Cranial Plating. It's also just a scary card for some opponents to play against, warping their decisions even if you can't currently crew it.
More Ralliers would be an option, but for now I'll test a Kitchen Finks in place of one the Reflector Mages.
I think with respect to Harmonic Sliver, the question really has to be if the occasional THIRD disenchant is necessary, like e032 wrote. Even against Affinity, Bogles or Lantern, this doesn't exactly happen all the time, and two disenchants should be quite good already. Reclamation Sage having two power really matters against 8-Rack, UW Control, BW Hatebears and other decks with just 5-10 targets to disenchant. A marginally easier mana cost can't hurt either when facing a Blood Moon deck.
Heart of Kiran’s interaction with Saheeli is nice but given that we only run 4 Planeswalkers and a few good pilots might Smuggler’s Copter be more relevant? It can be crewed by creatures that can’t always attack such as E-Witness, Magus of the Moon, Felidar, etc to actually increase your clock speed while digging for your Saheeli or other combo piece / pitching surplus ramp. However it is possibly worse when you have Saheeli since you’re tapping down an extra blocker to pilot while attacking. Heart might be better in a build with Nahiri aimed at grindy metas. Ultimately I’m not convinced that either is necessary but I like the experimentation at the 2-drop slot.
Glory-Bringer could be good. It would be a lot more attractive in the current meta if it could exhert for 5 damage instead of 4, but perhaps I’m looking a gift horse in the mouth.
EDIT: one other thing I wanted to bring up — Jeskai has overtaken UW as the control of choice in my meta and I think globally as well. Since they generally run fewer copies of Cryptic & Verdict bringing in a second Gaddock feels slightly less impactful and I was thinking about running Thrun there instead. Would he still be good relative to his impact vs more traditional control? I’m mostly concerned because he can still be swallowed by Queller and doesn’t block Queller but his stubborn board stickiness might still be good. Thoughts? Better answers to Jeskai Tempo? Blessed Alliance could be useful vs Geist.
I think Finks is very well-positioned against Jeskai, since they can at best equalize its value if it resolves. Scooze main seem very powerful against them, since they run a lot of snappies.
ScOoze against Jeskai is sometimes fantastic, but if they just have removal in hand, it does next to nothing. Playing it early exposes it to Lightning Bolt etc, but later on you risk running into Cryptic Command or giving them the chance to use their Snapcasters before ScOoze comes online. It's tough to time the card right, and requires quite a bit of mana since you don't really want to ever tap out with it on board (unless they tap out on their own turn, which they rarely do). Thankfully Renegade Rallier can rebuy it, but I still wouldn't want to lean too hard on ScOoze to win the game for me. It's useful, can even win on its own occasionally, but also be very low impact.
I think the best avenue to beat decks like Jeskai is keeping hands with a good curve, and having enough Voices, Finks, Ralliers, Coursers, Thragtusks, ScOozes etc in the deck. There is no single haymaker that destroys them completely, it's a question of critical mass of cards that present problems for them, and not getting blown out by Spell Queller. It might be one of the worst matchups for the combo part of our deck, since they have plenty of cheap interaction and can pressure Saheeli very well in the air with Clique, Queller, Geist and Colonnade.
@VenocStorm -- I'd be curious to hear your input on the Jeskai Control matchup as well.
Unified Will and Thrun are tools you've advocated against control but I'm concerned that Jeskai is good at deactivating Unified Will by keeping our creatures under control / deploying their own threats while out-tempo-ing Thrun as maniospas pointed out.
Have you gotten a chance to apply these cards to the matchup? How did they perform if so? Thanks
---
EDIT: if anyone else has any advice on Jeskai I'm all ears. I realize there may not be a silver bullet type card for the matchup but I'm still trying to decide on at least one decently solid SB card to bring in, starting with the following:
Blessed Alliance -- answers hexproof Geist and helps vs their burn suite, also useful vs Midrange
Obstinate Baloth -- double-duty with Burn, BGx Midrange, and 8-Rack, non-legendary + ETB makes it most compatible with core
Thrun -- best of the 4-drops against Blue but less good against Black midrange's Shadows / Delve Fatties / Goyfs?
Loxodon Smiter -- also good for BGx Midrange / 8-rack, but probably the weakest of the 4-drops
Keranos -- is this fast enough against Jeskai?
Carnage Tyrant -- potentially an unstoppable 2-3 turn clock but we might not get to 6 mana..
Engineered Explosives can blow up both Geist & Queller, recommended by Riley Knight but I feel like this may be too narrow / slow?
Vendilion Clique -- can pick problematic cards out of their hand or flash in to ambush Geist / Queller. Synergizes with the core of the deck reasonably well. UU, though..
I'm not a fan of expensive cards like Keranos against a deck with so much countermagic. I'd rather overtax their 1-for-1 tempo plan by trying to play multiple spells in one turn, or play spells on their turn to force them into tapping their mana. Trying to resolve a 5 mana spell feels like playing right into their hands, and Keranos doesn't even stabilize the board quickly if it sticks.
This might be completely crazy, but what about Qasali Ambusher? A free 2/3 with flash and reach can be a huge blow-out against an attacking Geist of Saint Traft, Goblin Guide, Vault Skirge or Selfless Spirit. A cmc3 creature that can theoretically land on turn 1 will occasionally even enable an early Eldritch Evolution for up to cmc5 creatures.
Against Jeskai specifically, besides ambushing Geist and Snapcaster, Qasali Ambusher also trades with Clique and bounces off Spell Queller. But it's most important feature is the fact that a free spell can regain a lot of tempo if they manage to 1-for-1 you a bunch of times and they start attacking. Playing a relevant blocker at a time when they don't see it coming forces them to tap mana on their turn or lose their momentum. Even if they have Bolt to answer it right away, you're still trading up on mana, and it might mean that you can resolve your follow-up spell.
I feel like Jeskai also makes very good use of extra lands you give them via Path to Exile, thanks to Snapcaster and Colonnade. For this matchup, it would be better if we had Lightning Bolts instead, but unfortunately that's just clearly too weak against decks like Eldrazi or Death's Shadow.
This list/variations of it have 5-0 modern leagues 3 times in the past week. It was mentioned on page 18 as well. Anyone have additional thoughts as to how it compares to the lists more commonly run in the thread? And perhaps how it could do so well as to 5-0 3 times in 4 days?
Going for maximum value as Plan A with 9 (!) flicker effects and 17 ETB targets not including Saheeli and then making the combo more of an incidental Plan B? Probably good against slower fair decks, looks like it needs a lot of hate to shore up the unfair matchups.
Coiling Oracle probably isn't doing much ramp with 18 lands (30% ramp rate) and I'm unsure of Vial in this list.
Additionally, there are two main advantages to building around Evolution: (1) if you know what meta you're targeting you can add in powerful hate cards that can be tutored in to even out your match-up spread, and (2) it makes the combo faster and more common, to the point that it can become your main plan and even outrace some unfair linear decks. However, Evolution is a risky play against counterspells, and paying the sac cost technically puts us down a card while we're trying to outgrind midrange decks.
If you expect to face a lot of fair decks or have absolutely no idea what you will face then the flicker-value list is probably a reasonable way to go. If you expect to face unfair decks -- especially if you have an educated guess on which decks -- I would consider building around Evolution.
I don't know what the online meta is like. Depending on what league you're playing it perhaps it's too wide open to choose Evo targets well, maybe there are more fair decks than unfair decks, perhaps both. As for how it could do so well.. Saheeli + Felidar + Oath + Voice is a really solid core. We've discovered that you can fill out the flex slots a lot of different ways and it will still perform well. I also would not be surprised to see any of the Evo lists posted in the last couple weeks going 5-0 online.
The other factor is that I think a lot of people in this thread (myself included) really enjoy the toolbox aspect that Evo brings. Some of us come from Kiki-Chord, Abzan Company, or other toolbox backgrounds. Even if the flicker-value list was shown to have an objectively superior match-up spread in the current meta (which I'm skeptical of), I think a lot of us would just enjoy playing (and subsequently talking about) the Evo list more. /shrug
Hi guys, first time posting. I am usually a lurker here but I've been jamming the deck for a couple months now and wanted to share my thoughts and ask a couple questions.
How do you guys feel about Wall of Omens in the current meta?
Personally, it has been underperforming for me. The draws can be relevant sometimes, but the 0/4 body has not been blocking much. The current meta is filled with big creatures that usually have more than 4 power, or decks that go so wide so fast that blocking 1 creature with a 0/4 doesn't prevent you from dying.
When playing a cat or copying a creature with saheeli I also usually have better targets than wall.
I've been considering swapping Walls for Coiling Oracle. What are your thoughts?
Additionally, yesterday I went to a Modern Night with about 30 people and for the first time ever I had to play a mirror match (I know right?).
I was not prepared for that, so no idea how to sideboard. It was something in these lines:
Coiling Oracle feels great when it gives you early ramp, but it only has a 37% hit rate for that. 63% of the time it is a more painfully costed Elvish Visionary, which IMO is worse than Wall since it can only block once whereas Wall might shut down a Goblin Guide, Finks, etc. Since it's worse than Wall more often than its better I've ruled it out. If you want ramp beyond Birds & Hierarch I think Cobra is the better option, or possibly a utility 2-drop like Ooze. If there was a 2 CMC version of Civic Wayfinder I would be all over that.
I'm back to cutting Walls while trying 2x Lightning Helix in my SB. It sounds like you don't have much Red aggro in your meta, in which case Walls are probably a safe cut.
Your SB plan for the mirror seems reasonable, sounds like it was just bad luck.
There is also Viridian Emissary, which might be the best of those options when it comes to sacrificing it or losing it in combat, and it also brings 2 power to the table. However, it doesn't generate value until it dies, which is a problem when the extra land is needed right away.
@hagenz
Yeah, we all started with some number of Wall of Omens and went to 0. When we can have G creatures with power to pressure or trade, Wall is not as good. Like you said, decks go either higher or wide and Wall just soaks a few damage points. I didn't miss the cantrip, it's weak etb for Felidar and not great copy for Saheeli. We preffer to be proactive (aggresive) with the plan B, as opposed to sit behind a wall and wait for combo, otherwise the opponent can just sit on their removal and answer it easier.
Coiling Oracle was mentioned a few times, it's just not good. Hard (painful) to cast and 1/1 is irrelevant. The effect is not enough to compensate.
More like 2 mana Farhaven Elf, idk if we want grisly bear that draws a land. Viridian Emissary doesn't trigger with Felidar/Saheeli, that's a problem, plus we want the land up front, not when we start to Evo for things. I mentioned Merfolk Branchwalker, it's the closest Coiling Oracle-type card to be playable. I don't have high hopes, but still want to try it to see how it actually plays. (I know I have a list of things to try, I was playing highlander for a few weeks, will get back to modern testing soon.)
Mentioned Qasali Pridemage for Torpor Orb on last page. I never dropped it from sideboard, just like the card, it can lower the curve or get aggresive even without disenchanting. Although sideboard is getting packed throughout the last few pages and IDK if I would play Pridemage over RecSage if it was the last slot.
if anyone else has any advice on Jeskai I'm all ears. I realize there may not be a silver bullet type card for the matchup but I'm still trying to decide on at least one decently solid SB card to bring in, starting with the following:
From the list the Explosives are closest to playabe, it's opposite of narrow. Too slow maybe, especially if you want to get those 3 drops. Plus we don't synergize with artifacts so it would have to be a 2of or something. I like Lightning Helix and Leyline of Sanctity to shut down the burn plan. Leyline would protect Thrun from Cryptic-tap, too.
Is Geist a problem? We should have enough blockers. Sure, they can remove a lot, but it's spending burn on our value creatures, that shouldn't be that bad for us.
If it really is a miserable matchup, keep in mind we can just give up on it and hope not to face it, that's modern. If worse comes to worst, so that we don't ruin sideboards trying.
I have 1 Tireless Tracker, 1 Renegade Rallier, 1 Linvala, 1 Thragtusk, 1 Sun Titan, 4 Saheeli Rai, 4 Voices that can generate large tokens, and creatures with 1 or 2 power that can team up to crew. Gavony Township also helps to crew occasionally. If they aren't needed to block, my summoning sick Tusk or Titan will absolutely jump into the Heart to deal 4 damage or block a flyer. It might still be too greedy in the end, but so far the Heart exceeded my own expectations. I thought I'd just quickly test this crazy idea to get it out of my system and verify that it's terrible, but it actually somehow works. If Heart is good, it's really really good, since it's a very fast clock, one-hits most planeswalkers and trumps everything in the air except Celestial Colonnade and Cranial Plating. It's also just a scary card for some opponents to play against, warping their decisions even if you can't currently crew it.
Just for the record, when you resolve Thragtusk or Sun Titan, them crewing a vehicle is not relevant. I would take the Beast token from Tusk crewing, that one can just sit there, sometimes. I didn't count Linvala similarly, when you resolve Linvala giving her Bone Saw isn't what won you the game. The Voice tokens require work.
Saheeli crewing is fine, the interaction of Heart with walkers should be strong, I would have to play with it to see how it impacts loyality, it's a pretty unique situation. I imagine the threat of activation is often enough for her not to get attacked.
Pretty bad scenario is failed combo attempt, where Saheeli is always on 1 loyality and can't crew to protect herself. That's the first clue towards win more status, when you stumble it does literaly nothing? Or eats/trades the attacker for the price of Saheeli. Smuggler's Copter suffers even more with 0 power dorks. What makes Heart interesting is the loyality crewing, otherwise it's just equipment.
This list/variations of it have 5-0 modern leagues 3 times in the past week. It was mentioned on page 18 as well. Anyone have additional thoughts as to how it compares to the lists more commonly run in the thread? And perhaps how it could do so well as to 5-0 3 times in 4 days?
What happened is the original pilot/deck made it 5-0, like many random decks do. Not to take away anything from the pilot or the deck, but it doesn't necessarily mean something. The list was published and more importantly played by the biggest personality on the biggest mtg site. Now, we don't have the statistics, but no one can doubt a lot of people picked the deck up for a league. Just look up mtgo prices of Saheeli to see the spike on 18-19th when the LSV video was published.
So from a big surge of pilots, some went 5-0 and two of them got published again. It's not like 4 people played the deck and it's so good that inevitably 3 of them 5-0, of course and the fourth one got screwed on mana The deck got traction on CFB and reddits, so wotc published more of it's results.
The version from this thread is not played on mtgo in that quantity. Earlier version of "our" deck was played by Gerry Thompson 5 months ago (with Evo and Kiki), it has 6k views. the LSV video has 49k in 1 week. So 50 thousand people got 2 more results published.
Other than that I agree with the above, all you need is Birds, Saheeli and Guardian and you steal games. The Vial acts similarly to Lotus Cobra, in that you can combo in one turn (T5) out of nowhere, while acting as a blink/value deck up to that point. I kind of miss Flickerwisp (from Emeria days), it's a sweet card and the interaction with Saheeli is very cool (but not modern worthy anymore, if ever). Resto can also end games after a few chip shots early.
It just plays too fair of a game plan. Our version is more consistent, which is important in unfair matchups, racing storm/tron and such. Against fair decks flickering Reflector Mages buys all the time in the world, but modern is not that fair. Even it's use of Vial is more fair than something like DnT or merfolk.
Is Geist a problem? We should have enough blockers. Sure, they can remove a lot, but it's spending burn on our value creatures, that shouldn't be that bad for us.
If it really is a miserable matchup, keep in mind we can just give up on it and hope not to face it, that's modern. If worse comes to worst, so that we don't ruin sideboards trying.
The last time I played against Jeskai the player used Cryptic into Snap Cryptic to repeatedly tap my board down and push 12+ damage through with Geist. After that it just took a burn spell or two to finish me off. Perhaps I just got unlucky. Overall you are probably right that this may not be worth devoting slots to.
Just for the record, when you resolve Thragtusk or Sun Titan, them crewing a vehicle is not relevant. I would take the Beast token from Tusk crewing, that one can just sit there, sometimes. I didn't count Linvala similarly, when you resolve Linvala giving her Bone Saw isn't what won you the game. The Voice tokens require work.
You do realize that summoning sick creatures can crew? Also, occasionally cards like Death's Shadow, Etched Champion or Gideon, Ally of Zendikar barricade the ground, so that even Thragtusk can't attack profitably anymore. In such cases, flying can have a lot of value, especially in my list with five exalted creatures. And flying on defense is also a relevant factor in the current metagame.
So, coming back to your analogy, HoK can be a Bone Saw that gives your creature flying and haste.
I admit, HoK isn't extremely reliable. Sometimes it just sits there doing nothing for several turns. But in my experience so far, that doesn't happen so often that I can't afford to play a single copy of the card. In other games, the card is solid or even really good, and it doesn't always have to be crewed a lot of times to be a relevant contributor. It often gets crewed once or twice and then forces out a Fatal Push, Path to Exile or Galvanic Blast from the opponent, which might later lead to an opening for a combo win. When it doesn't get removed and can be crewed, the huge 4/4 flyer invalidates a lot of cards, both creatures and planeswalkers. Also, when facing a pure race matchup like Storm, it can deal a lot of damage.
All in all, I think it does enough for a 2 mana card. It's not the most consistent card, but has a very high ceiling, and is solid on average. Since I only run one copy, my testing with it is still limited, and I might change my opinion at a later point. For now, I will keep playing it.
I finished updating my SB chart for my current list:Link to spreadsheet here -- feel free to save a copy and adjust for your own list! I hope it's useful. As always, if you question some of the swaps and see a more ideal way to do things let me know.
Some of the swaps I'm less sure on:
For Bant Knightfall I'm thinking of trying the Blood Moon package, or if not the full package just Magus. I realize this is risky as they run 8x multi-color dorks and ~2x Qasali Pridemage in the main and they only need G available to cast CoCo.
There's still a chance that a T2 Blood Moon on the play could lock them out if they get greedy, but more realistically even without a lock it might at least reduce the effectiveness of the Retreat combo into the sub-lethal range. Because most Knightfall lists don't run any Islands it could also make it harder to cast their blue spells, Reflector Mage / Spell Queller / Vendilion Clique, which are a big part of them disrupting and out-tempo-ing us.
I haven't gotten to play Death & Taxes yet so there's probably a better configuration than what's listed. Same for Dredge, Ad Nauseam, 8-Rack, and Lantern.
@Shelldell
Thanks for sharing that very extensive sideboard-plan! That's a great help
I have a couple of questions and comments though: Why are you taking out Hierarchs against several decks instead of Birds? Hierarch directly or indirectly deals damage, and red mana doesn't matter all that much in most of those matchups.
Reclamation Sage is a decent card against Burn in my experience, killing Eidolon of the Great Revel and potentially something like Grafdigger's Cage or Shrine of Burning Rage really matters. Archmage is good on the play, but on the draw I think it can be too slow.
There are various versions of Goblins in Modern, but the one I encounter the most is the 8-Whack version with Reckless Bushwhacker. I think I would bring in Eidolon against that deck.
Most Elves decks run both Chord and Company, so Gaddock Teeg should usually come in against them. Also, Eternal Witness as a way to rebuy removal seems better than Courser or Finks.
By "Taxes" you probably mean the mono-white version, BW Eldrazi, or both of them lumped together. Leonin Arbiter, Thalia, Heretic Cathar and Eldrazi Displacer present serious problems for us and all the removal should come in. Eldritch Evolution isn't great against their disruptive plan, 1 or 2 copies can come out. Also, against the BW version with Tidehollow Sculler and Aether Vial, Reclamation Sage can do some work.
Why is Eidolon not coming in against Ad Nauseam? It's pretty good against that deck. They can still win, but Angel's Grace and Lotus Bloom become a lot worse when they can't cast two spells in a turn.
Jeskai Control is very well equipped at interacting with our combo. Therefore I think Huntmaster is superior to the 4th Felidar Guardian here, I wouldn't board that out.
All fair points, I will update accordingly. Thank you.
I originally took Hierarchs out with the thought that I may want an aerial blocker especially against control's Colonnades / Quellers / Angel tokens, but being aggressive with the exalted bonus is probably the right play.
Against Burn, what do you think about Archmage on the play and Rec Sage on the draw?
Missing Gaddock and Eidolon were simple mistakes, thanks.
Btw Shelldell I'd try out a copy of spellskite if you have one MD. It could play a bit like a maindeck forge tender by negating burn/bolt to interrupt combo. Also 4 toughness helps against aggro. Yes its not a blink target but should have enough. And as noted its a target for rallier also. Expensive but can also redirect ballista pings.
4x Birds of Paradise
3x Noble Hierarch
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Selfless Spirit
4x Voice of Resurgence
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Eternal Witness
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Reflector Mage
1x Renegade Rallier
4x Felidar Guardian
1x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Thragtusk
Spells (14)
4x Oath of Nissa
4x Saheeli Rai
3x Path to Exile
3x Eldritch Evolution
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Breeding Pool
1x Flooded Strand
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Stomping Ground
1x Temple Garden
3x Forest
2x Plains
1x Gavony Township
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Gaddock Teeg
1x Stony Silence
2x Unified Will
2x Blood Moon
1x Harmonic Sliver
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Magus of the Moon
1x Glen Elendra Archmage
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1x Cataclysmic Gearhulk
1x Reveillark
In the side I swapped Harmonic Sliver in over Reclamation Sage, and made the somewhat agonizing cuts of -1 Stony Silence and -1 Eidolon of Rhetoric (there's one Storm player that comes occasionally but we've never played and I'd never had any other reason to bring Eidolon in yet) in order to squeeze in two copies of Unified Will.
Match 1: Naya 8-Whack (1-2)
G1 I make a mistake and think I'm against a naya burn list and I choose to Path Nacatl T1 rather than shocking myself to play Hierarch. He ends up overwhelming me with a Whack wave and I have no blockers. G2 the opponent starts developing his board with BTE, Loyalist, and one of the Whacks but Bird into T2 Courser stabilizes, followed by T3 evolve Birds into Finks -> T4 Evolve Finks into Gearhulk naming Courser as my enchantment, Finks as creature, and Gearhulk as artifact. Opponent scoops. G3 I keep a hand with Engineered Explosives, Reflector Mage, and Staticaster with a Bird and 2 Fetches. He plays Nacatl, I play Birds into Reflector Mage on Nacatl. T3 he dumps ~4 creatures onto the board and Whacks me for a big chunk of life. Unfortunately none share the same name so Staticaster stays in my hand and I play Explosives on 1 and pass. He plays several more hastey whack'd creatures, I detonate explosives and take out 2-3 (and my own bird) but still take a bunch of damage. Unfortunately I hadn't drawn any more lands, so with my Bird fried I'm stuck on 2 lands and die to the remaining Whack squad.
SB in: Explosives, Staticaster, Gearhulk || out: Eternal Witness, Rallier, Saheeli
Match 2: Bant (Non-Vizier) Knightfall (0-2)
G1 I play Wooded Foothills, fetching Forest into Birds and pass. My opponent plays Wooded Foothills, fetching forest into Hierarch and passes. We look at each other and laugh, each one wondering if we're playing the mirror. We start setting up and he reflects my Finks with Reflector Mage, and then when I try to cast Felidar to blink an Oath he exiles Felidar with Spell Queller. From there he responds to something with CoCo to Quell another one of my spells (forget which) and Vendillion Clique to strip my Evolution. He's got me way beat on the board. I topdeck Reflector Mage, bounce his Queller to resolve Felidar Guardian, play Saheeli, tick down targeting Felidar... and Felidar eats a Path. Almost! Next turn his hoard cleans up. G2 I keep a hand with Saheeli, Path, Evolution, and Voice. Voice sticks followed by a topdecked Gaddock Teeg to shut CoCo off completely. He plays Knight, which I Path. He then plays a second Knight, Selfless Spirit, and a Voice. I block with Voice, evolve Gaddock into Felidar, but then die with Saheeli in hand.
SB in: 2 Gaddock, Linvala, Gearhulk || out: Ooze, E-Witness, ??? (can't remember, sorry)
Match 3: WBu Polymorph Tokens (2-1)
G1 I lead with Hierarch, and when I see him pass with just an Island I figure it's control and slam Saheeli T2. He passes again and I play Felidar to combo out. I didn't get to see any cards but from the UW I assume it's UW control (although in retrospect this was a weird assumption since I would've expected him to play Mana leak / Path / something on T2 last game. G2 I board in all my Ux control stuff and basically try to run back the same play: Dork into Saheeli. On the end of my Turn 2 he plays Raise the Alarm into Intangible Virtue on his turn, and kills Saheeli with 2x 2/2 Soldier Tokens. That was a surprise! I play Finks into Felidar blinking Finks but he plays Spectral Procession into Smuggler's Copter and I can't keep up with his sky beats. G3 I sideboard against tokens, lol. I play Gaddock into Voice, and he gets some soldiers down and exiles Voice with Anguished Unmaking. I evolve Voice into Felidar, blinking an Oath to find Saheeli. Next turn I combo out.
SB game 3 in: Explosives, 2 Gaddock, Staticaster, Glen Elendra, Lark, Gearhulk || out: 3 Path, Ooze, Reflector Mage, Huntmaster, Thragtusk
Match 4: My opponent drops /shrug
Overall 2-2
Thoughts:
Man! Spell Queller does a lot of work against this deck, disrupting the combo both on the stack and flying over blockers to snipe Saheeli, ensuring that you can pretty much only cast her the turn you're looking to combo out. The only answer I can think of (beyond running more spot removal ala NateG's Lightning Helix SB) might be to run an Angel of Sanctions to evolve into in order to exile Queller -- even if they kill Angel the Queller won't get to counter another spell. Otherwise we just have to hope we can get Linvala / Lark in the skies or get a Gearhulk wipe.
In general I feel like most of my game losses (barring misplays) were because I failed to stabilize fast enough, got behind on tempo, with a couple games made worse by mana screw.
This is the second night I've run Scavenging Ooze and Selfless Spirit and they are obviously great cards, especially against midrange and control, but I didn't really get to see either shine in these aggressive matchups. Wall feels better to me in the main for my meta, and I'm tempted to bring those back in since the cantrip effect means they at least cycle and provide Evo fodder even in matches where they can't block G1.
I'm less sure of how I feel about 2x Cobra vs Hierarch / Reflector Mage. It's tempting to wonder whether an early Cobra could've helped me keep pace with 8-Whack or Knightfall better. I still think Reflector Mage is a solid card, though, and having another source of Exalted via the 3rd Hierarch is nice. The Reflector Mage might also become some other utility card like MB Angel of Sanctions or a second copy of one of the existing 3-drops for added consistency.
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Noble Hierarch
2 Lotus Cobra
4 Voice of Resurgence
1 Eternal Witness
3 Renegade Rallier
4 Felidar Guardian
1 Thragtusk
1 Sun Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reflector Mage
Spells 14
3 Path to Exile
3 Eldritch Evolution
4 Saheeli Rai
4 Oath of Nissa
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
1 Razorverge Thicket
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Worship
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Path to Exile
2 Stony Silence
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Kataki, War's Wage
Here were my matchups and results:
Round 1: Jeskai Control (2-1 Win)
Round 2: Pyromancer Combo (2-0 Win)
Round 3: UR Gifts Storm (0-2 Loss)
Round 4: Burn (2-0 Win)
The first thing I want to say is that this manabase is absolute garbage. I'm not sure why, but every single shock land in the deck is a forest. Outside of mana dorks, there are not duplicate red or blue sources. This made fetching very awkward sometimes. If I had a basic forest in hand and two fetch lands and I wanted to cast Voice on turn 2 and Saheeli on turn 3. You just cannot. If you get a white source from a fetchland, it must be Temple Garden, cutting you off red or blue. If you get a blue source, you cut yourself off from red and white. If you get a red source, you cut yourself off from white and blue. The terrible manabase cost me game 2 against Storm. I had Noble Hierarch in play with Breeding Pool, Stomping Ground, a Fetchland, and two basics. Felidar guardian is also already on the battlefield. I cast Saheeli rai by tapping stomping ground, breeding pool and basic. My storm opponent remands. I think I have the game for sure, but then I realize that there is no other red land in the entire deck... I don't mind losing to a poor matchup, but it frustrates the hell out of me to lose to build error. Not every aspect of the manabase was infuriating. The high number of basics did end up helping me against burn. I think the manabase needs some tweaking. I will definitely being going back to something closer to my original mana base.
Ok, now that I'm done with that little rant, I can move on to talk about the rest of the deck. Overall, I was very happy with how the deck performed. Sun Titan was probably my MVP of the night. He won me two games single-handedly; not even from combo. The board presence that he offers is just irreplaceable. I had no trouble getting up to 6 mana to hard cast him; he works so well with Renegade Rallier. Lotus cobra didn't really do anything too crazy. I don't think I ever got a chance to untap with lotus cobra. He seemed to be a must-kill card for my opponents, which I'm ok with; just wish he didn't die so easily. I'm going to keep testing 2 in the main. I was very happy with Scavenging Ooze; it was good against literally every deck I played against. With the reflector mage in the maindeck, I felt like 3 path to exile's is the correct number. Despite the importance of felidar guardian for the combo, I felt like using up all of my 4-drop slots for it felt a bit much. You have Oath of Nissa, and Eldritch Evolution to find them. For those reasons, I'm going to drop a Felidar Guardian for a Huntmaster of the Fells in the maindeck. I might do P&K Nalaar, but that might be tough on the manabase. I like her more that Huntmaster. Being able to Evolution away a Voice into a P&K is just filthy. I'm on the fence about Thragtusk. He was good against burn and control, but Reveillark might be a better choice. I'll have to do some more testing to come to a definitive conclusion on the 5-drops.
I was in kind of a rush and only managed to put together a sideboard at the last minute. Most of the card choices were based on what I had with me. The Worship ended up being relevant against burn, among other cards. I'm still not completely sold on it, but I think I will keep testing it. Stony Silence didn't come up in my matches tonight, but they're not going anywhere. I was very happy with the Tireless Tracker against Jeskai Control. Magus of the Moon is also locked for a sideboard slot; same with Reclamation Sage. When I was sideboarding tonight, I was thinking about the 4th path to exile and wondering what matchups I would really want it in. I came to the conclusion that It's not very good, and that I would rather go back to the Lightning Helix that I ran in my top8 list. Not certain this is correct, but I feel like there are way more matchups where you want to deal with little dudes than matchups where you need to deal with big dudes. Examples would be against Elves, Burn, Affinity, Storm even, and other creature combo decks. Selfless Spirit felt great against control. Again, I didn't play against Affinity tonight, but I feel like Kataki is probably a bit overkill, considering I'm also playing the Rec Sage. Engineered Explosives felt very clunky. It's definitely getting the axe. Obstinate Baloth and Kitchen Finks got boarded in against burn, but I never saw them. I think I might cut Finks because its fairly low impact. Baloth gains the same amount of life, but is just bananas against Jund and 8-Rack, and is still just a solid threat against other midrange decks. Phyrexian revoker didn't end up being relevant tonight. However, Revoker really helped me out in a tough match in the Modern Classic last weekend, so I can't justify cutting it quite yet. I think I'm going to try something crazy in the board moving forward: 4 Leyline of Sanctity. I know it sounds idiotic, but our two worst matchups are decks that combo directly to our face (Storm and Scapeshift). It's also very good against Burn and Ad Nauseam. Unlike some other decks playing Leyline of Sanctity, we can actually cast it on turn 3 or 4 without any issues. We'll see how it performs in testing. If it doesn't work out, I'll have to rethink those last 4 sideboard slots.
Here is the list I will likely be testing with moving forward:
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Noble Hierarch
2 Lotus Cobra
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Voice of Resurgence
1 Reflector Mage
1 Eternal Witness
3 Renegade Rallier
3 Felidar Guardian
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
1 Sun Titan
Spells 14
3 Path to Exile
3 Eldritch Evolution
4 Saheeli Rai
4 Oath of Nissa
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
1 Stomping Ground
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Lightning Helix
2 Stony Silence
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Worship
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Obstinate Baloth
4 Leyline of Sanctity
Let me know what you guys think about my FNM recap. Share your own stories with the deck; I'd love to hear your input and criticism about the list, as well as new suggestions. Until next time!
I agree that the manabase you tested was suboptimal (especially the 2nd Temple Garden over Sacred Foundry) but I think you might want fetches 9-10 if you're going to keep 2x Lotus Cobra and 3x Rallier (I am personally on 12 fetches / 5 basics).
I'm still a little hesitant about shaving a Felidar... yes there are 3x copies of Evolution but I think I will continue to prioritize the combo in my list for now.
What was your deck config G2/3 vs Jeskai?
What is your plan for Eldrazi Tron in your list moving forwards?
Thank You for trying it.
heh, sorry about the storm anecdote, but Steam Vents maybe an overkill? Switch Misty to Arid Mesa to fetch all colors without it. With Reflector Mage the mana would be adjusted, I play 2 Temple Garden when I don't have to fetch for non-GW cards besides Saheeli. Switching the 2nd Temple Garden is a freebie and while I'd rather not, going to 5 shocks is ok if you want the insurance, especially when running additional U/R cards.
Storm being back on Remands is worring, I liked it more when they didn't have interaction for Evo > Eidolon, or just 1of bounce spell
The Shocks being Forests is for T1 G, the deck has keepable 1 landers especially with Oaths. I don't like mulling Birds + Plains hands.
The 5 basics are there so you don't take 10 damage when you're returning fetches with ralliers multiple times in a game. If you're keeping the 3 ralliers keep an eye on the damage you take from lands with fewer basics and 6 shocks.
You can do the Forest > Voice > Saheeli with any of the 10 one drops before, or 2 Cobras after. Or have alternative plays, it would be a hyper specific situation that you have exactly Forest, Voice, Saheeli, Guardian and nothing else. Regardless, the switch is easy, so sure.
Depends on a lot of factors, but generally I want to hold Cobra with fetch for T3 if I have other play on T2, to get some value before they react.
The Evo Voice into P&K depends on utility, Evo Voice into Rallier gives you the same power and keeps Voice around for opponent to deal with. Evoing Voice is ok, but it still sets us back.
Thragtusk is the last flex slot I cut when tinkering. Just the prevalence of Path, plus it's just about the best Saheeli and Guardian target. No need to worry about yard contents (Sun Titan and Lark). The shift from Bolt to Push is nice as well.
Worship and Leyline are interesting. I mentioned Leyline, it's useful against a good portion of the meta and fixes the things we need. Would 2x Leyline be fine, or is 3-4 preferable just to have it T0?
I don't know about a plan against Queller that includes Evo. Especially when they have Company to 1, find Queller and 2, get card advantage while you sac your creatures. If they Queller the Evo, you have to sac 2nd creature to cast it from under the Queller. I would think about at least shaving copies of Evo, if not cutting it. But yeah, Voice, Teeg, Angel, Lark are good.
Better get that Eidolon back in there if the 8whack person comes back! I like ralliers vs 8whack, returning 2 drops that trade is what you want. You can cut Saheeli completely, don't need combo, you win with 4-5 drops they can't attack into. Witness maybe slow, but it also trades and returns path/blocker, Saheeli does less I think. My plan is to clog the board with everything and playing Saheeli is taking a turn off.
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If you don't keep up with Hoogland, we should now expect Orbs of Warding from Gx Tron. Also with all the Saheeli buzz people may include cards to counter it. I like to have Qasali Pridemage in board for Torpor Orb, otherwise Rec Sage and Path handle most of the hate. I got old school Rakdos Charmed on mtgo a while ago, I guess it's relevant for Dredge and Hollow/Vine things?
I recently started playing Saheeli Evolution and after stumbling upon this thread, I finally created an account to join the discussion. I've read the forum here and there, but never posted. While I am new to this specific deck, I've played similar decks for years: My first Modern deck was Kiki-Pod back in 2012, later I switched to Melira Pod and played that until the Pod-ban in 2015. Afterwards I experimented with Infect, Gifts Control, Death Cloud, Abzan Company, Protean Hulk Combo and other fringe decks for roughly two years and with mixed results, until a friend sent me a list I fell in love with at first sight: Abzan Midrange with Eldritch Evolution, with no combo at all. I played that for the most part of this year to great success at my LGS, beating Death's Shadow and control decks to pulp left and right, but the local metagame has shifted and become unfavorable for an Abzan deck with a greedy mana base. After some annoying losses to Magus of the Moon, Spreading Seas and All is Dust, I reluctantly decided the Siege Rhinos had to get shelfed for the time being.
Since my brother repeatedly went undefeated with his Vizier Company list, often thanks to Magus of the Moon, I looked at building a similar deck. Some mediocre attempts at Naya Evolution Midrange led me to remembering the Saheeli Rai combo, and I built a list featuring that. After comparing my list with various Saheeli lists online and tinkering a bit more by myself, I had some promising results in the last couple of tournaments.
Here is my current list:
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Birds of Paradise
4x Voice of Resurgence
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Reflector Mage
1x Renegade Rallier
1x Eternal Witness
1x Tireless Tracker
1x Magus of the Moon
2x Felidar Guardian
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1x Thragtusk
1x Sun Titan
Other Spells 16
4x Oath of Nissa
1x Abundant Growth
1x Path to Exile
1x Heart of Kiran
4x Saheeli Rai
3x Eldritch Evolution
2x Fiery Justice
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Arid Mesa
1x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Stomping Ground
1x Temple Garden
3x Forest
2x Plains
1x Mountain
1x Gavony Township
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Burrenton Forge-Tender
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Trygon Predator
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Avalanche Riders
1x Cataclysmic Gearhulk
1x Path to Exile
1x Fiery Justice
2x Blood Moon
2x Worship
1x Nissa, Vital Force
I obviously have couple of card choices that are different from what people use in this thread.
Most lists run the full four Felidar Guardian or at least three, but I started with only one and recently added number two. I just don't think the card has enough impact outside of the combo, so I want to avoid drawing multiples in games where interaction makes the combo plan unattractive. With two copies, three Evolutions and four Oaths to dig for them I still combo often enough, but my turn 3 or 4 win rate is certainly lower. Basically, I want access to the combo, I just don't to rely on it too heavily.
When I first started with the deck, I had three Wall of Omens in it. I quickly noticed that in a metagame of UW Control, Death's Shadow, Vizier Company, Affinity, Eldrazi Tron, and Storm, having an 0/4 blocker on the ground has next to zero value. Occasionally it brickwalled a Goblin Guide or Matter Reshaper, but more often it was extremely low impact. Most decks either don't care about attacking, or have lots of creatures with 4+ power. So I tried to think of alternative 1- or 2-drops, and most of those have been discussed in this thread somewhere. I personally didn't like Scavenging Ooze, Selfless Spirit or Lotus Cobra for various reasons.
Since the choice to "join the dark side" and play Blood Moon effects was one of the reasons I even switched to this deck from my prior Abzan deck, having good mana is a big concern. Enter Abundant Growth. I always liked that card, it's cheap, replaces itself just like Wall of Omens, and provides basically perfect mana fixing all on its own, even through Blood Moon, Spreading Seas, Fulminator Mage or Tectonic Edge. Also, it can enchant a fetchland, which saves 1-3 points of life and keeps the fetchland around for later use (triggering Renegade Rallier or Tireless Tracker). So, one of the Wall of Omens became Abundant Growth, and I have been very happy with the one copy.
But also, I wanted more proactive cards, something to keep my opponent busy so I could set up either a combo win or generate value in the meantime. I thought about Tarmogoyf, but that's just a vanilla and not always very big in this deck. Just not the right card with Death's Shadow outgrowing it. Somehow I had the idea of trying out Heart of Kiran, and it's been quite impressive so far. Playing it on turn 2 and following it up with a Saheeli represents a lot of pressure: 4 damage a turn in the air plus Saheeli's ping, with the option to block too thanks to vigilance. But there are also various 3 power creatures in the deck that can crew it. Having a huge flyer early in the game is great against Affnity, Spell Queller, and decks that try to block on the ground. It snipes planeswalkers very well, dodges sorcery removal like Supreme Verdict or Chandra Torch of Defiance, forces opponents to use removal on your turn (which Voice likes a lot), and blocks Etched Champion. The only real problem I encountered so far is Kolaghan's Command, but that card will be a 2-for-1 if you have artifacts or not, so a single Heart of Kiran seems acceptable. I really like that it gives the deck a completely different angle by being an aggressive 2 mana play that offers lots of small upsides. Sure, there is the very real risk of it doing nothing because there is nothing to crew it with, but so far it worked well for me.
And finally, after having some encounters with Ensnaring Bridge, Ghostly Prison, Chalice of the Void and Cranial Plating, I wanted to have a Disenchant effect in my maindeck. A single Qasali Pridemage can be tutored, copied, returned, and also just attack for 3. Low risk, high reward in my eyes.
In addition to Pridemage, I also run the unusual split of 4 Hierarch/2 Bird. I've had a lot of success with my previous deck thanks to also having five exalted creatures in my deck. Not only does each exalted trigger deal damage, quite often they enable you to attack when otherwise you wouldn't have been able to run into that Thought-Knot Seer or Knight of the Reliquary at all. Sometimes that third Noble Hierarch means attacking for 5 instead of staying at home. It all plays into what I wrote earlier: the wish to present a proactive gameplan and to apply some early pressure in order to force the opponent to respond on multiple axes.
Less Birds, more Hierarchs, means slightly less red mana, but that can easily be adressed by fetching accordingly (usually Stomping Ground as one of the first lands). In exchange, I get more impact from my mana dorks.
Since my metagame is rich with Eldrazi, Affinity and Vizier Company, I moved Linvala into my maindeck, and I like what the card does in those matchups. But just having that 3/4 flying body is surprisingly relevant in some other matchups: As much as Death's Shadow likes losing life, if you gum up the ground with Voice of Resurgence, a big flyer can end the game quickly. Also, it outsizes Flickerwisp, Spell Queller, Vendilion Clique and Smuggler's Copter.
My removal suite is also irregular: Just one Path to Exile, but two Reflector Mages and two Fiery Justices. This is mostly due to the Magus of the Moon / Blood Moon plan, since letting the opponent search a free basic land isn't really my intention. I've never been a fan of Path anyway, since removing a Dark Confidant or Devoted Druid on turn 2 can backfire into an early planeswalker or Collected Company respectively. Reflector Mage is a much more powerful early answer, and Fiery Justice can really turn games around, especially against Death's Shadow. Justice is also very very good against planeswalkers, sometimes even taking out a random Snapcaster Mage or Scavening Ooze alongside the Gideon or Liliana.
What are your thoughts on my list? Please give me some feedback!
Also, could someone comment a little on Angel of Sanctions for me please? I see that card in many lists, but I don't fully understand its appeal. In some matchups it seems awfully slow, and in others you have expect it to get removed, maybe even in the middle of combat, which can lead to nasty blowouts. Which matchups is it meant for, and does it perfom well? Is it actually playable when Path to Exile can remove it so easily?
I’m starting to think that most of the utility options should be in the 3-5 CMC range while keeping my 2-drops devoted to setup of some kind.
That's certainly right, and kind of I noticed that problem myself already. Fiery Justice is best when the opponent's life total is irrelevant and I win via combo, yet my deck is light on combo pieces. However, quite often Justice represents such a big swing that giving my opponent some life is not a problem, even if I allow them to live an extra turn that way. So, while there is no synergy, I just like the raw power of Justice so much that I think I can get away with it.
Concerning ETB triggers: Which ones can you suggest that are actually good? If Felidar Guardian is a 1/4 that draws a card via Wall of Omens, it's still pretty unexciting. The only ones I really like at this point are Oath of Nissa, Reflector Mage and Eternal Witness (as well as cmc4+ cards but those are less relevant because I need cards to curve into FG). Renegade Rallier can be insane too, but only if there is actually a relevant thing to bring back, which is very unreliable. Lands and mana dorks usually barely matter at that point, and a Voice just isn't what you want against some matchups. Oath is always great, but doesn't hit the graveyard very often (and if there is one in the grave, then almost always there will also be one in play to be flickered). Maybe I should finally give Blade Splicer a try, I've been considering that for a while. Kitchen Finks is another option, but the value of flickering that is very matchup dependent.
So your assessments of Angel of Sanctions mostly confirm my own opinion on it: It's slow, not all that reliable, and more of a safety net than a pillar to lean on. I have one lying around, so maybe I'll give it a try some time, but I don't really have high hopes for it.
Has anyone considered or tested Glorybringer yet? It's very powerful against creatures and planeswalkers, hits reasonably hard when you're just racing (deals damage faster than Thragtusk, Reveillark or Angel of Sanctions) and has really nice synergy with Saheeli and Guardian. It does nothing when it runs right into a Path to Exile or Dismember, though, which makes it a more risky option.
that's actually interesting, I never thought about Exert. Glorybringer may work, the cost should be manageable. The removal is nice, I can see Evoing into it to kill something relevant. Haste allows blinking it after untapping or just topdecked Guardian.
What about Glory-bound Initiate? 3 power 2 drop trades up, brought back with Rallier, hits for 4 lifelink, better copy target than Finks. Could be quite efficient. I'll try 2-3 Initiate + 1 Glorybringer.
As for the earlier discussion:
Fiery Justice shouldn't be maindeck-able card. I wanted to point out you are giving them a turn, but you did it for me. What do you think are the % of games where you give them a turn with Justice compared to the % of games where a land from Path is relevant? On top of that consider the 3 cmc, sorcery speed and the fact that Time Walk has greater upside than Rampant Growth.
I think you should just play Path, but if you really don't want to, there's still Bolt/Helix or Detention Sphere on 3cmc sorcery speed.
Heart of Kiran is interesting, certainly powerful, but you don't really have "various 3 power creatures", you have 2, unless you want Tusk or Titan to drive. Biggest problem I see are the 0 power dorks, if it could utilize those it would be much more appealing. Seems like Ralliers would really get along with Heart of Kiran, they can return it and crew, wouldn't you want 2 or 3?
Abundant Growth actually resembles Oath of Nissa, like a really bad Oath #5. I can see the utility, but we can probably slot in a more powerful card.
I have to admit the 3 Felidars are intriguing, just because we have the 3 Evo. Freeing the 4+ spot is valuable. With that said, I'm still on 4, I like my free wins. I think we are a combo deck at the core and want to maximalize those chances.
Harmonic Sliver: I actually value the 2 power of Rec Sage. Sliver is absolutely better in Affinity, but anything else? For other decks there shouldn't be a difference in 2 vs 3 naturalize. If you can board Sage for UW control (D.sphere/seas) and clock them after verdict for 2 instead of 1 I'd say it's relevant. Same with Ad Naus, if you want to bring it in for Pentad Prism / early Unlife, the pressure is relevant. IDK, they are both good, I wouldn't say strictly better.
To have that double-naturalize effect, you need exactly Saheeli, not just blink. We probably don't side her out in affinity, but it can depend on the level of hate we're on. Affinity is the best aggro/combo deck in terms of killing Saheeli, they have explosive power and mostly fly over our blockers. They can reliably kill T2 Saheeli. We are probably on the hate+value plan, it may depend on sideboard. If we're not racing, shaving copies or boarding out Saheeli would be reasonable and you start loosing the advantage of the Sliver.
I guess Lantern has the targets, but we really care about Bridge and maybe Needle, not much else. The pressure can be relevant as they sometimes take a while to find Bridge. It's a weird matchup.
I'm not down on the Sliver, I'll keep it in mind and try to notice which is relevant in games.
I have 1 Tireless Tracker, 1 Renegade Rallier, 1 Linvala, 1 Thragtusk, 1 Sun Titan, 4 Saheeli Rai, 4 Voices that can generate large tokens, and creatures with 1 or 2 power that can team up to crew. Gavony Township also helps to crew occasionally. If they aren't needed to block, my summoning sick Tusk or Titan will absolutely jump into the Heart to deal 4 damage or block a flyer. It might still be too greedy in the end, but so far the Heart exceeded my own expectations. I thought I'd just quickly test this crazy idea to get it out of my system and verify that it's terrible, but it actually somehow works. If Heart is good, it's really really good, since it's a very fast clock, one-hits most planeswalkers and trumps everything in the air except Celestial Colonnade and Cranial Plating. It's also just a scary card for some opponents to play against, warping their decisions even if you can't currently crew it.
More Ralliers would be an option, but for now I'll test a Kitchen Finks in place of one the Reflector Mages.
I think with respect to Harmonic Sliver, the question really has to be if the occasional THIRD disenchant is necessary, like e032 wrote. Even against Affinity, Bogles or Lantern, this doesn't exactly happen all the time, and two disenchants should be quite good already. Reclamation Sage having two power really matters against 8-Rack, UW Control, BW Hatebears and other decks with just 5-10 targets to disenchant. A marginally easier mana cost can't hurt either when facing a Blood Moon deck.
Glory-Bringer could be good. It would be a lot more attractive in the current meta if it could exhert for 5 damage instead of 4, but perhaps I’m looking a gift horse in the mouth.
EDIT: one other thing I wanted to bring up — Jeskai has overtaken UW as the control of choice in my meta and I think globally as well. Since they generally run fewer copies of Cryptic & Verdict bringing in a second Gaddock feels slightly less impactful and I was thinking about running Thrun there instead. Would he still be good relative to his impact vs more traditional control? I’m mostly concerned because he can still be swallowed by Queller and doesn’t block Queller but his stubborn board stickiness might still be good. Thoughts? Better answers to Jeskai Tempo? Blessed Alliance could be useful vs Geist.
ScOoze against Jeskai is sometimes fantastic, but if they just have removal in hand, it does next to nothing. Playing it early exposes it to Lightning Bolt etc, but later on you risk running into Cryptic Command or giving them the chance to use their Snapcasters before ScOoze comes online. It's tough to time the card right, and requires quite a bit of mana since you don't really want to ever tap out with it on board (unless they tap out on their own turn, which they rarely do). Thankfully Renegade Rallier can rebuy it, but I still wouldn't want to lean too hard on ScOoze to win the game for me. It's useful, can even win on its own occasionally, but also be very low impact.
I think the best avenue to beat decks like Jeskai is keeping hands with a good curve, and having enough Voices, Finks, Ralliers, Coursers, Thragtusks, ScOozes etc in the deck. There is no single haymaker that destroys them completely, it's a question of critical mass of cards that present problems for them, and not getting blown out by Spell Queller. It might be one of the worst matchups for the combo part of our deck, since they have plenty of cheap interaction and can pressure Saheeli very well in the air with Clique, Queller, Geist and Colonnade.
Unified Will and Thrun are tools you've advocated against control but I'm concerned that Jeskai is good at deactivating Unified Will by keeping our creatures under control / deploying their own threats while out-tempo-ing Thrun as maniospas pointed out.
Have you gotten a chance to apply these cards to the matchup? How did they perform if so? Thanks
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EDIT: if anyone else has any advice on Jeskai I'm all ears. I realize there may not be a silver bullet type card for the matchup but I'm still trying to decide on at least one decently solid SB card to bring in, starting with the following:
This might be completely crazy, but what about Qasali Ambusher? A free 2/3 with flash and reach can be a huge blow-out against an attacking Geist of Saint Traft, Goblin Guide, Vault Skirge or Selfless Spirit. A cmc3 creature that can theoretically land on turn 1 will occasionally even enable an early Eldritch Evolution for up to cmc5 creatures.
Against Jeskai specifically, besides ambushing Geist and Snapcaster, Qasali Ambusher also trades with Clique and bounces off Spell Queller. But it's most important feature is the fact that a free spell can regain a lot of tempo if they manage to 1-for-1 you a bunch of times and they start attacking. Playing a relevant blocker at a time when they don't see it coming forces them to tap mana on their turn or lose their momentum. Even if they have Bolt to answer it right away, you're still trading up on mana, and it might mean that you can resolve your follow-up spell.
I feel like Jeskai also makes very good use of extra lands you give them via Path to Exile, thanks to Snapcaster and Colonnade. For this matchup, it would be better if we had Lightning Bolts instead, but unfortunately that's just clearly too weak against decks like Eldrazi or Death's Shadow.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/800116#paper
This list/variations of it have 5-0 modern leagues 3 times in the past week. It was mentioned on page 18 as well. Anyone have additional thoughts as to how it compares to the lists more commonly run in the thread? And perhaps how it could do so well as to 5-0 3 times in 4 days?
@Raddlocke: Additionally, there are two main advantages to building around Evolution: (1) if you know what meta you're targeting you can add in powerful hate cards that can be tutored in to even out your match-up spread, and (2) it makes the combo faster and more common, to the point that it can become your main plan and even outrace some unfair linear decks. However, Evolution is a risky play against counterspells, and paying the sac cost technically puts us down a card while we're trying to outgrind midrange decks.
If you expect to face a lot of fair decks or have absolutely no idea what you will face then the flicker-value list is probably a reasonable way to go. If you expect to face unfair decks -- especially if you have an educated guess on which decks -- I would consider building around Evolution.
I don't know what the online meta is like. Depending on what league you're playing it perhaps it's too wide open to choose Evo targets well, maybe there are more fair decks than unfair decks, perhaps both. As for how it could do so well.. Saheeli + Felidar + Oath + Voice is a really solid core. We've discovered that you can fill out the flex slots a lot of different ways and it will still perform well. I also would not be surprised to see any of the Evo lists posted in the last couple weeks going 5-0 online.
The other factor is that I think a lot of people in this thread (myself included) really enjoy the toolbox aspect that Evo brings. Some of us come from Kiki-Chord, Abzan Company, or other toolbox backgrounds. Even if the flicker-value list was shown to have an objectively superior match-up spread in the current meta (which I'm skeptical of), I think a lot of us would just enjoy playing (and subsequently talking about) the Evo list more. /shrug
How do you guys feel about Wall of Omens in the current meta?
Personally, it has been underperforming for me. The draws can be relevant sometimes, but the 0/4 body has not been blocking much. The current meta is filled with big creatures that usually have more than 4 power, or decks that go so wide so fast that blocking 1 creature with a 0/4 doesn't prevent you from dying.
When playing a cat or copying a creature with saheeli I also usually have better targets than wall.
I've been considering swapping Walls for Coiling Oracle. What are your thoughts?
Additionally, yesterday I went to a Modern Night with about 30 people and for the first time ever I had to play a mirror match (I know right?).
I was not prepared for that, so no idea how to sideboard. It was something in these lines:
-1 Sun Titan
-3 Voice of Resurgence
-1 Reveilark
+1 Dentention Sphere
+1 Fiery Justice
+1Glen Elendra Archmage
+1Scavenging Ooze
+1Izzet Staticaster
I lost 2-0 as he went off turn 3 in both games and I failed to find disruption and didn't go off as fast.
For reference, this is this list I am running:
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Razorverge Thicket
1x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Stomping Ground
2x Temple Garden
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Mountain
1x Gavony Township
1x Horizon Canopy
Spells 14
4x Oath of Nissa
4x Saheeli Rai
3x Path to Exile
3x Eldritch Evolution
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Noble Hierarch
3x Voice of Resurgence
3x Wall of Omens
1x Reflector Mage
1x Renegade Rallier
1x Eternal Witness
4x Felidar Guardian
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Reveillark
1x Sun Titan
1x Glen Elendra Archmage
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Detention Sphere
1x Cataclysmic Gearhulk
1x Keranos, God of Storms
1x Fiery Justice
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Stony Silence
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Thragtusk
I'm back to cutting Walls while trying 2x Lightning Helix in my SB. It sounds like you don't have much Red aggro in your meta, in which case Walls are probably a safe cut.
Your SB plan for the mirror seems reasonable, sounds like it was just bad luck.
There is also Viridian Emissary, which might be the best of those options when it comes to sacrificing it or losing it in combat, and it also brings 2 power to the table. However, it doesn't generate value until it dies, which is a problem when the extra land is needed right away.
Yeah, we all started with some number of Wall of Omens and went to 0. When we can have G creatures with power to pressure or trade, Wall is not as good. Like you said, decks go either higher or wide and Wall just soaks a few damage points. I didn't miss the cantrip, it's weak etb for Felidar and not great copy for Saheeli. We preffer to be proactive (aggresive) with the plan B, as opposed to sit behind a wall and wait for combo, otherwise the opponent can just sit on their removal and answer it easier.
Coiling Oracle was mentioned a few times, it's just not good. Hard (painful) to cast and 1/1 is irrelevant. The effect is not enough to compensate.
More like 2 mana Farhaven Elf, idk if we want grisly bear that draws a land. Viridian Emissary doesn't trigger with Felidar/Saheeli, that's a problem, plus we want the land up front, not when we start to Evo for things. I mentioned Merfolk Branchwalker, it's the closest Coiling Oracle-type card to be playable. I don't have high hopes, but still want to try it to see how it actually plays. (I know I have a list of things to try, I was playing highlander for a few weeks, will get back to modern testing soon.)
Mentioned Qasali Pridemage for Torpor Orb on last page. I never dropped it from sideboard, just like the card, it can lower the curve or get aggresive even without disenchanting. Although sideboard is getting packed throughout the last few pages and IDK if I would play Pridemage over RecSage if it was the last slot.
From the list the Explosives are closest to playabe, it's opposite of narrow. Too slow maybe, especially if you want to get those 3 drops. Plus we don't synergize with artifacts so it would have to be a 2of or something. I like Lightning Helix and Leyline of Sanctity to shut down the burn plan. Leyline would protect Thrun from Cryptic-tap, too.
Is Geist a problem? We should have enough blockers. Sure, they can remove a lot, but it's spending burn on our value creatures, that shouldn't be that bad for us.
If it really is a miserable matchup, keep in mind we can just give up on it and hope not to face it, that's modern. If worse comes to worst, so that we don't ruin sideboards trying.
Just for the record, when you resolve Thragtusk or Sun Titan, them crewing a vehicle is not relevant. I would take the Beast token from Tusk crewing, that one can just sit there, sometimes. I didn't count Linvala similarly, when you resolve Linvala giving her Bone Saw isn't what won you the game. The Voice tokens require work.
Saheeli crewing is fine, the interaction of Heart with walkers should be strong, I would have to play with it to see how it impacts loyality, it's a pretty unique situation. I imagine the threat of activation is often enough for her not to get attacked.
Pretty bad scenario is failed combo attempt, where Saheeli is always on 1 loyality and can't crew to protect herself. That's the first clue towards win more status, when you stumble it does literaly nothing? Or eats/trades the attacker for the price of Saheeli.
Smuggler's Copter suffers even more with 0 power dorks. What makes Heart interesting is the loyality crewing, otherwise it's just equipment.
What happened is the original pilot/deck made it 5-0, like many random decks do. Not to take away anything from the pilot or the deck, but it doesn't necessarily mean something. The list was published and more importantly played by the biggest personality on the biggest mtg site. Now, we don't have the statistics, but no one can doubt a lot of people picked the deck up for a league. Just look up mtgo prices of Saheeli to see the spike on 18-19th when the LSV video was published.
So from a big surge of pilots, some went 5-0 and two of them got published again. It's not like 4 people played the deck and it's so good that inevitably 3 of them 5-0, of course and the fourth one got screwed on mana The deck got traction on CFB and reddits, so wotc published more of it's results.
The version from this thread is not played on mtgo in that quantity. Earlier version of "our" deck was played by Gerry Thompson 5 months ago (with Evo and Kiki), it has 6k views. the LSV video has 49k in 1 week. So 50 thousand people got 2 more results published.
Other than that I agree with the above, all you need is Birds, Saheeli and Guardian and you steal games. The Vial acts similarly to Lotus Cobra, in that you can combo in one turn (T5) out of nowhere, while acting as a blink/value deck up to that point. I kind of miss Flickerwisp (from Emeria days), it's a sweet card and the interaction with Saheeli is very cool (but not modern worthy anymore, if ever). Resto can also end games after a few chip shots early.
It just plays too fair of a game plan. Our version is more consistent, which is important in unfair matchups, racing storm/tron and such. Against fair decks flickering Reflector Mages buys all the time in the world, but modern is not that fair. Even it's use of Vial is more fair than something like DnT or merfolk.
You do realize that summoning sick creatures can crew? Also, occasionally cards like Death's Shadow, Etched Champion or Gideon, Ally of Zendikar barricade the ground, so that even Thragtusk can't attack profitably anymore. In such cases, flying can have a lot of value, especially in my list with five exalted creatures. And flying on defense is also a relevant factor in the current metagame.
So, coming back to your analogy, HoK can be a Bone Saw that gives your creature flying and haste.
I admit, HoK isn't extremely reliable. Sometimes it just sits there doing nothing for several turns. But in my experience so far, that doesn't happen so often that I can't afford to play a single copy of the card. In other games, the card is solid or even really good, and it doesn't always have to be crewed a lot of times to be a relevant contributor. It often gets crewed once or twice and then forces out a Fatal Push, Path to Exile or Galvanic Blast from the opponent, which might later lead to an opening for a combo win. When it doesn't get removed and can be crewed, the huge 4/4 flyer invalidates a lot of cards, both creatures and planeswalkers. Also, when facing a pure race matchup like Storm, it can deal a lot of damage.
All in all, I think it does enough for a 2 mana card. It's not the most consistent card, but has a very high ceiling, and is solid on average. Since I only run one copy, my testing with it is still limited, and I might change my opinion at a later point. For now, I will keep playing it.
Some of the swaps I'm less sure on:
For Bant Knightfall I'm thinking of trying the Blood Moon package, or if not the full package just Magus. I realize this is risky as they run 8x multi-color dorks and ~2x Qasali Pridemage in the main and they only need G available to cast CoCo.
There's still a chance that a T2 Blood Moon on the play could lock them out if they get greedy, but more realistically even without a lock it might at least reduce the effectiveness of the Retreat combo into the sub-lethal range. Because most Knightfall lists don't run any Islands it could also make it harder to cast their blue spells, Reflector Mage / Spell Queller / Vendilion Clique, which are a big part of them disrupting and out-tempo-ing us.
I haven't gotten to play Death & Taxes yet so there's probably a better configuration than what's listed. Same for Dredge, Ad Nauseam, 8-Rack, and Lantern.
Thanks for sharing that very extensive sideboard-plan! That's a great help
I have a couple of questions and comments though: Why are you taking out Hierarchs against several decks instead of Birds? Hierarch directly or indirectly deals damage, and red mana doesn't matter all that much in most of those matchups.
Reclamation Sage is a decent card against Burn in my experience, killing Eidolon of the Great Revel and potentially something like Grafdigger's Cage or Shrine of Burning Rage really matters. Archmage is good on the play, but on the draw I think it can be too slow.
There are various versions of Goblins in Modern, but the one I encounter the most is the 8-Whack version with Reckless Bushwhacker. I think I would bring in Eidolon against that deck.
Most Elves decks run both Chord and Company, so Gaddock Teeg should usually come in against them. Also, Eternal Witness as a way to rebuy removal seems better than Courser or Finks.
By "Taxes" you probably mean the mono-white version, BW Eldrazi, or both of them lumped together. Leonin Arbiter, Thalia, Heretic Cathar and Eldrazi Displacer present serious problems for us and all the removal should come in. Eldritch Evolution isn't great against their disruptive plan, 1 or 2 copies can come out. Also, against the BW version with Tidehollow Sculler and Aether Vial, Reclamation Sage can do some work.
Why is Eidolon not coming in against Ad Nauseam? It's pretty good against that deck. They can still win, but Angel's Grace and Lotus Bloom become a lot worse when they can't cast two spells in a turn.
Jeskai Control is very well equipped at interacting with our combo. Therefore I think Huntmaster is superior to the 4th Felidar Guardian here, I wouldn't board that out.
I originally took Hierarchs out with the thought that I may want an aerial blocker especially against control's Colonnades / Quellers / Angel tokens, but being aggressive with the exalted bonus is probably the right play.
Against Burn, what do you think about Archmage on the play and Rec Sage on the draw?
Missing Gaddock and Eidolon were simple mistakes, thanks.