There is no universal "right" creature to get with Evolution, it's a question of context. It depends on the matchup (How reliable is the combo in this matchup? Do I need interaction? Which type and quantity of interaction do I expect out of my opponent?), the content of my hand (and deck), and especially the boardstate. If I have Oath of Nissa on the field and think that the combo is the right way to go, getting Felidar is obviously a good idea. If my opponent has a slow start and I just want to put pressure on their life total, evolving Voice into Rallier is excellent. If I need that Path to Exile from my graveyard a second time, Eternal Witness it is.
To answer your "Do we need another 4-drop" question: I played a couple of tournaments with only Felidar Guardians and some 5-drops, and I felt my options were a little too limited when I had a Voice to sac and an Evolution in hand. That's why I'm currently testing Sublime Archangel. I can get that whenever I just want to be proactive and try to pressure a linear deck.
The Avalanche Riders in Jeff Hoogland's list fulfills a similar role: Land destruction hits control, ramp and combo decks where it hurts and it is crazy good with Saheeli. While it doesn't care about spot removal, the body is small and it requires a big echo payment. It might be the best 4-drop in a metagame with lots of Tron, Titanshift and control.
Good: it's non-conditional, permanent, repeatable creature removal on a stick.
Bad: the BB casting cost.
Is the effect strong enough to warrant the mana strain? I'm not so sure, Evolution and Rainbow Dorks let us get away with a lot but BB is pretty tough.
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Meanwhile I've been working on tuning a "Hoogland-style" deck to my local metagame for evaluation this Friday.
Without Path in the main I want some other answers to faster decks. I like Hoogland's suggestion of New Sigarda to slow down Storm & Burn, Linvala helps cover Affinity, Elves, and Druid Combo. I noticed that I was planning to board out Reflector Mage and Sun Titan in a lot of matchups (and had cut them from previous lists) so I combined them into one general anti-Bx midrange card with Angel of Sanctions. Having a trio of flying angels at the top of the curve should generally be useful against Affinity, Jeskai, and Death's Shadow game one. I also like that they are all readily accessible with Evo compared to Titan.
I continue to believe that the reach / offensive speed of Rhino is more valuable than the defensive grind-value of Thragtusk, so I've carried the Rhinos over into this test version. I also don't like waiting until we hit 5 mana (or Evo with a 3-drop in play) to start stabilizing against Burn, so I'm running a Finks over the 4th Rallier. I also have a lot of aggro decks in my meta so I'm running 2x Engineered Explosives in the side over the Acidic Slime / Avalanche Rider -- Tron has been pretty well surpressed here between all of the fast decks and regular Blood Moon players.
I agree with other posters here that 1 copy of Felidar Guardian is too little. Once your Felidar is Path'd your combo plan is over. Here I'm running 2 Cats with 5 tutors but I wouldn't be surprised if I find myself wishing for the 3rd Cat later.
I was really liking Thalia GoT but with the increased reliance on non-creature tutors for the combo over just casting Felidar Guardian it seems like the symmetry would start to hurt more.
Cheers to Lejoon for pointing me to this thread! =)
Took my version for a spin last night to get a feel of a deck. I knew the deck can be explosive after watching Jeff Hoogland play this deck in MTGO (5-0 1 particular league) but its a matter of also piloting the deck in person and looking for various lines of play against other decks. Disclaimer: I do not have the "full" deck (4 Voice of Resurgence, Horizon Canopy) and ported most of the stuff from my old Kiki-Chord deck... I like this deck way more because I am not playing a bunch of 0 power mana dorks (BoP being the only ones)
Deck was hilarious to play, one game i set up 11 power on board on turn 2. Opponent had no chance. In another game, I turn 3 Evo-ed a Lotus Cobra into Felidar Guardian after a turn 2 Saheeli. Kiki-Jiki and Restoration Angel is just for redundancy. I would most likely replace Kiki-Jiki for another Sun Titan as the triple red can be an issue. I am inclined to keep the Restoration Angel because you need flyers in Modern to go wide. Glen Elendra Archmage seems to be mandatory for me as she flies, has persist and is able to protect the board from sweepers or other unsavoury spells.
I am looking into enforcing the deck with a few Voice of Resurgences and/or Kitchen Finks. Kitchen Finks is great to play the stalling game. Tireless Tracker also looks great with its synergy with Lotus Cobra. I don't think Courser of Kulphix is a good idea because it is not good to reveal the combo to the opponent also, this deck has a relatively low land base count.
Welcome to the thread. Now is a great time to pick up Voices if you can.
I played a few games vs Affinity & Jeskai last night with the list I posted. The results were about what you'd expect, I was crushed G1 vs Affinity and then won a little more than half of the post-board games. This is the second time in the last couple weeks a robot player has won through T2 Stony Silence, but T1 Birds -> T2 Evo into Kataki was a lot more effective in the following game. I clawed my way back into a third close game with T2 Cobra -> T3 Gearhulk. Against Jeskai the increased Rallier count was very useful and I managed to carefully resolve a couple Evos (including evolving a lone 1/1 Elemental token into a fresh Voice) without getting blown out.
I'm not going to lie, there were several times I would've liked to have drawn a Path. On the other hand, the increased threat density was pretty nice vs Jeskai.
I also had a couple games where I had Saheeli ready, cast Oath, and then sadly had to bottom Evo/Chord. My robots player also had Grafdigger's Cage in the SB which she landed in a couple games. Once you start to rely on Evo/Chord to find Felidar having both your combo and value plans stifled by Cage -- such an efficient and relatively common SB card -- doesn't feel great. This is part of the reason that I am (as expected) working the 3rd Felidar back in.
Jeff posted an updated list here. I'm not sure if he eventually ran into trouble against aggro swarm or just decided to test my suggestion but it's good to see the 2x EE and Gearhulk in there. And as Need_More_DPS mentioned Tireless Tracker is great with Cobra, cracking Clues is nice for Rallier's Revolt, and the card draw helps dig for combo pieces. The last time I tried Tracker I was somewhat underwhelmed because I felt like I didn't have enough mana around to really support her. With that in mind I'm going to try something crazy and test a 9-dork setup:
As I mentioned before, T1 Dork -> T2 Evo into hatepiece (Kataki vs Robots / Eidolon vs Storm / Staticaster vs Elves) is really the best Plan B against some tough fast decks when we can't combo out by T3-4 so having 5x 1-drop Dorks and 4x Evos feels good there. I'm hoping that the ability to Evolve our extra dorks combined with the two Tireless Trackers and Canopies will ease flooding enough.
Having neither Meddling Mage, Path, nor Sigarda further softens the deck to Storm etc game one, but with the most ramp and combo pieces of any list I've tested it's got a decent shot at comboing out on T3... hopefully that balances out.
Wednesday Night Modern: 3-1
Lost round 1 to Titanshift because his draws in games 1 and 3 were great and mine weren't, but at least I won game 2 in a landslide (turn 2 Aven Mindcensor does some work in that matchup). Felt like I had decent chances, somewhere in the ballpark of 50:50, but variance.
In next three rounds I beat UW control, Affinity and Bogles without dropping a game. My draws ranged from good to absurd, and most of those games were not all that close.
I cut Glorybringer for Sigarda, Herons Grace and neither missed the dragon nor liked the angel. Maybe I'll go back to Sun Titan or try out Reveillark or Acidic Slime in that spot. I also consciously cut another Path to Exile, since creature removal doesn't seem so important in game 1 right now (hence the Glorybringer cut), and was very happy with that decision when facing Titanshift, UW Control and Bogles in 3 of my 4 rounds.
Tireless Tracker was great the one time I drew it against UW, and probably won that game on its own.
For a while now I have been running the full set of Hierarchs and just two Birds (which even get boarded out in grindy matchups) and been happy with that configuration. Birds provide red mana and block in the air, but I prefer Exalted, and that gets even better the more you have. Hierarch is an actual damage source against decks like UW Control, whereas Birds is mostly just a dead draw after turn 1. Any thoughts on that? Why does everyone run 4 Birds and 0-2 Hierarchs? Is that just copy/pasted or are you guys actually convinced that's the right thing? (Not counting the people running Kiki, I get the necessity of Birds in that context.)
My biggest problem with Tracker is that I don't think I ever want to Evolution him out. Is there any matchup where you want to go get him? Because I would rather put a Blade Splicer in it's place. I see he gets a lot of card draw, but is it necessary?
My biggest problem with Tracker is that I don't think I ever want to Evolution him out. Is there any matchup where you want to go get him? Because I would rather put a Blade Splicer in it's place. I see he gets a lot of card draw, but is it necessary?
Tireless Tracker is able to provide a growing body, card draw / card advantage and has interaction with Saheeli (Scry before draw) and Lotus Cobra... i think all these advantages surpass Blade Splicer's addition.
I have already added 2 into my deck and have seen all the possiblities and lines of plays it provides. The ability to draw cards also enables you to draw into Eldritch Evolution which is kind of lacking in EE variants that do not have Chord. You can float a lot of mana off the Lotus Cobra / Rallier combo to draw cards off Tireless Tracker and grow him. It also forces your opponent to interact with your board which takes away their answers for other threats you play later.
@Underused Cards - the only time that I'm tutoring up Tracker is when I have a 1-drop Dork on the field and a hand of Evo + lands against a grindy deck. I realize that's a pretty narrow use-case. However, I don't think every card has to be a great Evo target.
Blade Splicer can be a good build-around card in conjunction with Reveillark but otherwise it never impressed me significantly more than the other 3-drop options.
@Emzed - thanks for the report!
Any thoughts on Aven Mindcensor vs Avalanche Riders vs Magus of the Moon against Scapeshift?
What other decks do you bring Mindcensor in against?
As for Birds vs Hierarch -- I like Birds for extra red and black sources for Rhino / Explosives, blocking Affinity / Jeskai fliers, and generally operating more comfortably under an opposing Blood Moon. Running more Hierarchs might be correct, especially if you can keep your mana costs conservative. I suspect that for some people it might be partly tied to budget as well.
My biggest problem with Tracker is that I don't think I ever want to Evolution him out. Is there any matchup where you want to go get him? Because I would rather put a Blade Splicer in it's place. I see he gets a lot of card draw, but is it necessary?
Tireless Tracker is able to provide a growing body, card draw / card advantage and has interaction with Saheeli (Scry before draw) and Lotus Cobra... i think all these advantages surpass Blade Splicer's addition.
I have already added 2 into my deck and have seen all the possiblities and lines of plays it provides. The ability to draw cards also enables you to draw into Eldritch Evolution which is kind of lacking in EE variants that do not have Chord. You can float a lot of mana off the Lotus Cobra / Rallier combo to draw cards off Tireless Tracker and grow him. It also forces your opponent to interact with your board which takes away their answers for other threats you play later.
I'll try him out as a 2 of. I can see the lines with all the mana and card draws, but seems less aggressive to try and kill the opponent. Guess it's better in practice than in theory.
@Shelldell: Your black splash is obviously another perfect reason why you need Birds in your list. But mine has no black, and not a lot of red cards either (only the 4 Saheelis main, and 5 sideboard cards). And as long as I don't need black mana, Birds has no advantage over Hierarch in Blood Moon situations.
I don't like Magus of the Moon against Scapeshift, they have so many red removal spells after sideboarding. Once it dies, they can just win. Blood Moon seems way more reliable. Aven Mindcensor and Avalanche Riders can actually fight their lands directly, so those seem better too. The echo on Avalanche Riders is annoying, otherwise it would be a lot easier to flicker it with Felidar Guardian and completely demolish them. If we could just have Ravenous Baboons in Modern...
Aven Mindcensor is for Titanshift, Vizier Company (Chord, Knight otR, lots of fetchlands), Storm (Gifts), Tron (Expedition Map, Sylvan Scrying) and control decks with fetchlands. It might just be better to run a second Gaddock Teeg instead, but I currently only have one copy, and against Titanshift specifically Aven Mindcensor is superior.
@Underused Cards: I have been in situations where I'm flooded and all I have are creatures of cmc 1-2. No combo in sight, nothing in the grave worth getting back with Rallier or Witness. Tireless Tracker is excellent to get with Evo in a spot like this, since it provides both a threat and draws a couple of cards. Last night I even copied it with Saheeli once to get some extra clues and an extra hit with the hasted token.
I was thinking the same thing for hierarch vs bird. Exalted seems better than flying and red mana - oath is a red source for saheeli anyways.
More generally I'm skeptical of running two Titans and the single pact or chord. Dorks die a lot and you can easily get stuck with evos and high CMC cards. It can also be hard to protect saheeli.
Edit: I also draw ralliers with no way to get revolt more than I'd like
Round 2: 8-Rack (1-2) G1 I combo out on T4 or T5 without response G2/G3 Both games I got hit hard by early Smallpox, clearing a dork and setting me back to 1 land, followed by another Smallpox a few turns later. In G3 he cast Shadow of Doubt in response to me cracking my first fetch to effectively sinkhole me, followed shortly by Smallpox. In each game I spent 5 minutes trying to get a second mana source while I looked at a grip of uncastable 3-4 CMC cards. My opponent then set up his rack / Liliana lock to win. SB IN +1 Thalia, +2 Rec Sage, +1 Chameleon Colossus // OUT -4 Birds of Paradise
My thought process on boarding here was that I wanted to still have some gas after getting hit by discard, trading dorks for quality cards like I would against a midrange deck. After playing I think this was a big mistake and that I should've treated it more like a prison deck by getting under it. Next time I’ll keep the Birds and trip the top of the curve so I’m less likely to get locked out of casting anything. Either way the combination of 3x Shadow of Doubt and 4x Smallpox is really tough. Spell Pierce would be a great tool here to help set up without having our manabase destroyed.
Round 3: Burn (0-2) Both games my opponent did a great job of playing “Burn Control” and keeping my board clear with Searing Blaze / Searing Blood and a few other burn spells while his attackers chipped in. This kept Evolution trapped in my hand so I couldn't access Finks / Rhino. Game 2 he landed an early Eidolon and I didn't have an out. SB IN +1 Thalia, +2 Unified Will, +2 Rec Sage // OUT -2 Tireless Tracker, -1 Saheeli, -1 Eternal Witness, -1 Angel of Sanctions
Round 4: BYE
Takeaways
No Path: during my first bye I took a survey of the decks present to assess whether I'd want Path against the field there. The results were 2x Cheerios (!), 1x Storm, 1x 8-rack, 1x Jund Shadow, 1x Grixis Shadow, 1x Tropical Fish, 1x Humans, 1x Burn, 1x Elves, 1x Amulet... so while I didn't miss Paths vs 8-Rack I think it would've been good to have against the field.
Another possibility is to run Explosives in the main, which would be better vs aggro, OK against shadow, but not much help vs Storm & Cheerios so I'd need to board more heavily against them. A third option would be to run a couple Runed Halos in the main which would have a similar effect at neutralizing a threat in Midrange and Aggro but perhaps give me a bit more game vs Grapeshot and Valakut game 1. WW sorcery speed isn’t great, through. Angel of Sanctions seemed too cumbersome, but this could be colored by my being stuck on 0-3 mana and no creatures to Evolve for most of the night
Eternal Witness: I had previously cut this card from the main due to the rapid speed of my predominantly aggro/combo meta but put it back in while trying elements of Hooglands list. I still don't know if I like it in the main -- I would board it out against 70+ percent of the matchups listed above. My combo attempt is most typically interrupted by removal of Felidar (Path/Push), in which case I'd just Evolve into another copy of Felidar instead of using Witness. Additionally I’m trying to favor creatures over spells in my SB, so rebuying spells with EW is less common. Tireless Tracker and Rallier seem better as card advantage options that double as effective threats for our Plan B while synergzing with Cobra.
5 dorks + 4 Cobras + 3 Ralliers: I'm not positive the extra lone Hierarch was necessary but overall I was happy with this ramp setup as I feel like having a starting hand with some ramp is important for me to have a chance in this meta.
Unified Will: This is another one that I tried as part of Hoogland's list but I still don't care for. I think I just don't have enough Big Mana decks in my meta to make it attractive. I will probably stick to a second Thalia and a Spell Pierce.
Moving forward I think I need a more solid plan against Storm...
EDIT: Meddling Mage seemed too narrow. I'll try adding a Bolt to the side instead of the 3rd Path since it's the most efficient way to remove Baral / Puresteel Paladin without ramping the opponent and also has some extra utility vs Walkers. Settled on this for now
Why zero sun Titan? I don't like two but one seems good as a possible saheeli combo kill that is also major value if resolved.
Why not fourth rallier? Isn't this our main cobra payoff and one of the better things to pod a voice into for a free token?
Explosives seem mediocre as we have a lot of one's twos and threes while also having access to versatile removal options. Usually ee is used because it's likely one sided or because it's the best or only way to clear swarms or noncreature permanents
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
The chance of fortuitously having one Saheeli in the grave, another Saheeli on the field, and Sun Titan in play is so low that IMO the infinite combo is not a compelling argument for running Titan. With that said simply having one Saheeli in play and cloning Sun Titan with a couple good rez targets is a great way to close out a grindy game. Personally I found Titan clunky against the fast aggro and combo decks that I regularly face, and I also didn't care for how awkward Titan's 6 CMC is with Evolution — 5 CMC seems like the highest cost we can routinely access.
Many of us have experienced diminishing returns on multiple Ralliers, instances where there's nothing useful left to rez or no fetches left to conveniently enable Revolt and he's just a vanilla 3/2 for 3. Maybe running 4 Cobras makes Rallier good reliably enough to warrant the full playset despite occasional awkwardness, I dunno yet. I think Hoogland was really hot on the full Rallier set since (1) it increases the chances of the T2 combo nut draw and (2) getting a Rallier out early gave Hoogland a body to Evolve into 5 CMC bullets. I suspect that the odds of the T2 combo are a little too low to be worth chasing and I'm not running any 5 CMC cards in the main to evolve into. Cobra pays off in lots of ways: it fills in our curve's hole at 2 CMC, it allows us to play Cobra T2 and then dump the whole combo on the board T3, it simultaneously generates mana while also pressuring combo/control opponents, and more.
Explosives on 2 is IMO one of our best options against Affinity, Humans, and Merfolk. If it blows up our Voice and we get a Elemental that's great for us, and if we lose a Cobra it's still worth it if we take out problematic cards like Plating, Freebooter, and Lords, respectively. Explosives on 1 is one of our better plays against Lantern. Losing one of our Birds is no problem if it wipes out their lock and puts us back in the game. Plus we can always Rallier rez these cards back later. Explosives on 1 is also decent against Elves and Death's Shadow. It can deal with all sorts of random troublesome permanents as you pointed out. Perhaps it's not meant for the mainboard but I think everyone should have a least one copy in the side if possible.
Round 1 (Classic Jund):
My opponent clearly plays Jund regardless of the metagame with his all foil Jund deck featuring promo Bobs and invocation Thoughtseizes. Game 1 I stumble on mana after he rips my hand apart with some Seizes, plays a Bob, plays two Goyfs, and just rolls me.
Game 2 I am able to out value him with my Voices and Ralliers and he can't keep up.
Game 3 he stumbles on mana and before he is able to get anything going I am too far ahead. These BGx matchups feel very favorable as our value plan is just filthy against their 1 for 1's.
1-0
Round 2 (Lantern):
Game 1 is a long game as he begins to assemble the lock but I have him real low on life and a Pia and Kiran with a Saheeli in play. I just need one more turn to kill him. I mess up with my succession of my lands and end up having to shock myself down to four. He has Pyretic Spellbomb. Punt. However, he punts it right back and taps his Codex Shredder to mill rather than rebuy his Spellbomb so I end up winning the game I should have already won.
Game 2 he gets a Bridge down with one card in hand. I combo kill him.
2-0
Round 3 (Mono-U Living End):
Game 1 I am able to combo kill him before he can set up As Fortold
Game 2 He is able to Living End early and gets back 3 Serpent and just rolls me.
Game 3 I grind him out and set my self up to combo if he does find a Living End. He doesn't so I kill him with the beat 'em down plan.
3-0
Round 4 (Humans):
Game 1 He has a turn 1 Vial and is just able to flood the board before I can assemble the combo. I Oath'd 5 times or so and never saw Saheeli.
Game 2 He has turn 1 Vial again but I am able to tutor for Gearhulk and then overpower him from there.
Game 3 I keep a one land hand with Birds and double Oath. He plays Champion into Thalia which really slows me down. I fall too far behind. Whomp.
3-1
Round 5 (Jeskai Geist):
Game 1 I mulled to 5 but was able to grind and eventually combo.
Game 2 he has Turn 3, 4, and 5 Spell Queller and I am unable to get anything going.
Game 3 I have Voice. He kills it so I Evolve my token into a Voice and then just start Rallying back for the win.
4-1
Round 6 (Blue Moon):
Game 1 I am playing the value game and winning but then he Breaches into Emrakul. Ouch.
Game 2 I play the value game again and he stumbles a bit. Voice and Rallier do more work.
Game 3 is a long drawn out game but results in me setting up a turn where I play Thragtusk to put me above 15 so I don't die to random Breach. He kills the Tusk and the resulting Beast. I cast Sun Titan into Rallier into Voice. He has a draw to find a bolt. He whiffs. GG
5-1
Round 7 (Elves):
Game 1 I mull and keep a slow hand but it has the combo and a Voice. He mulls to 4. He goes Elf->Archdruid->Heritage->Ezuri. Wow. GG
Game 2 I have Bird into Rallier. My opponent plays several Elves. I Evolve my Rallier. My opponent taps his Elves in resp to Company. I assume he thought I was fetching for Linvala. He hits some Elves and I get Gearhulk and he just scoops.
Game 3 I again Evolve into a Gearhulk. He plays Mindscensor in resp. I path his Mindscensor and blow him out. GG
6-1
Round 8 (Affinity)
Game 1 I mull to 5 and he has a reasonable draw.
Game 2 I mull to 6 and he has a reasonable draw with Aethergrid.
6-2
Round 9 (Affinity)
Game 1 I mull to 6 and he has a reasonable draw
Game 2 I keep a good hand with multiple ways to interact. I one point I make a huge punt and lose because I suck. Ugh.
6-3
The deck was a BLAST to play and I will continue working on it. As for individual card choices/numbers all of the 4-ofs felt good. Rallier over-preformed all day. Sun Titan, when I cast it was good. I think I drew Chord once and it was fine. Pia was fine. Angel was whatever but I think you want that kind of effect to tutor for.
Is there any logic to running a blue fetch manabase instead of red fetch manabase (after the heaths do we go misty/flooded vs foothill/mesa - or some mix therein?)? The original hoogland lists had more blue in the main - a reflector and meddling mage etc. Most of us seem to have cut that stuff out of the main, and now the only U card is generally the saheeli - although to be fair red isn't far behind as usually just saheelis and then a pia and kiran or rider or w/e.
Does it just not matter? Why not a mix of all fetches to add some punch vs needles while still having more or less the same % to find various lands?
4x heath
2x mesa
2x foothills
2x misty
2x strand
Also why do we bother running unified will and not just negate? Is it really worth being able to hit creatures for the downside of sometimes not being able to cast it at all?
Maybe there is a more "ideal" fetchland package but honestly as long as you have a good amount of green and white fetches you should be fine. Windswept is the only fetch that you must play 4 of
The main switch I'm currently considering is swapping thragtusk+sun titan for 2x siege rhino. The burn matchup looks a little greasy to me as they can searing blaze or bolt the dorks and boros charm the saheelis (Resp to felidar trigger) and thrag is my only life gain. A turn 2 eidolon also looks horrific. In this case I would guess the hierarchs have to go back to being birds.
I have acidic slime straddling the line between Avalanche Riders and Angel of Sanctions - not sure if it works. It catches random aura/artifact, deathtouches goyfs and smashers, and can pick off lands while also being a good flicker/clone target (which angel is not). Does not hit planeswalkers but I'm not sure thats a big problem this deck has with its high creature density (just attack the walkers or ignore them)
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
@Koopa: Welcome to the thread! Thanks for sharing. How did you feel about Path in the main vs side?
@BadMcFadden: Those of us that tried Acidic Slime found it to be really useful in a few niche situations as you mentioned but underwhelming on average. Its 2/2 deathtouch body is a good blocker against midrange but does nothing against combo and evasive aggro decks, and exerts relatively little pressure against control. Land destruction on a 5 drop is usually a little too slow to matter much unless you ramp and manage to Evolve a 3-drop into Slime on turn ~3. The artifact destruction is also a little slow to do much against Affinity or blow up Human/Merfolk/Taxes vials before they get the tempo advantage they need. It seems nice as a late-game catch-all answer to problematic hate cards but you usually won't have to deal with those game 1, anyways. IMO Qasali Pridemage is a better mainboard hedge against random artifacts and enchantments.
1 Path main and 1 in the side is kind of a strange hedge to me when you don't have any way to filter or tutor for that lone copy in the main. For consistency's sake I'd personally want both in the main or both in the side but that's just me. We'll see what Koopa thinks.
Most of us have cut the second Temple Gardens. This can be a third basic forest, Razorverge Thicket, or second Canopy. We're often fetching basics or splash-shocks, rarely Temple Gardens.
I saw the last few lists playing angel of sanctions, figured slime plays a similar role for the same cost. What you lose in not being able to exile a walker/creature you gain in hitting lands and having it be permanent (is my thought). Probably a matter of just putting in reps with each card and feeling it out personally. I liked being able to avalanche riders but the echo cost is brutal and limits how reliable it is to clone/flicker it for actual value.
I had the same thought on the single path - you don't usually run singletons that you have no way to tutor or at least dig for, but at the same time we can't run a bunch or we start hurting our oath selection. I've also found that an early goyf/shadow can be a problem for any sort of beatdown plan - perhaps this is where hoogland had the 1 reflector mage.
Edit: example of why some maindeck path are relevant - humans with meddling mage on saheeli. We have no way to kill 8/8 thalia's lieutenants and without access to the combo its pretty much hopeless as the game drags :/
I could see MDing Paths if the meta is heavier on creature decks. As someone who played Pod (and later Company) it was customary to keep your maindeck focused game one and then in the post board games being a more interactive deck which Paths help with. That same thought process, IMO, applies to this deck as well. Game one we are more focused on the combo (though you are not all in, the value plan is still very real and sometimes preferable in game one) and then in your post board games you board out your bad general cards for good specific cards and you are more of a value deck (though, again, the combo is still very real in the post board games).
I am in the same boat. The core of dork cobra rallier evolution saheeli voice felidar seems solid. But im feeling like its ground zero for determining what supporting cast these cards need to be good. We have lots of identified options but I dont think we really have any frontruners identified let alone consensus.
Im sure some of these slots have to be meta based but I just like having a plan vs everything from game one on. If in the end theres a matchup I have to just concede then fine, but a value toolbox deck should be able to fix the vast majority of matchups.
When evolution was spoiled the focus was on t1 dork t2 evolve into a spellskite, eidolon of rhetoric, magus of the moon, etc. Is that still strong (ie maindeck a magus and an eidolon?).
I do think its important to not overdo the toolbox - we have 4 evolutions and usually want to get a guardian for combo or rallier for value. I think trying to evo into sigardas and thragtusks may be a trap.
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Leaving ~7 flex slots, of which I'd argue that 2-3x should be for removal leaving ~5 slots. If you have any ideas on the decks you want to target we could offer suggestions.
Emzed made a case against Magus of the Moon recently, promoting Aven Mindcensor as a tool against Scapeshift, Tron, and a few other decks. I've currently got Mindcensor in my side but it hasn't come up in play yet.
Personally I don't find Eidolon of Rhetoric to be maindeckable. The only decks I want him in against are Storm, Living End, and maybe Bushwacker Zoo. He shuts off snapcaster decks which is useful for grinding against Ux control decks but we want to be out-tempoing them, not out-grinding them. Instant-heavy decks also do a better job of getting around Eidolon by casting one spell on both their turn and during our turn, which we can't do since we have very few instant-speed spells compared to Kiki-Chord. Path to Exile, Gaddock Teeg, Meddling Mage, and possibly New Sigarda are better, broader MB cards that also have game against Storm IMO.
---------------
@Lejoon, Koopa, others: one idea I've been toying with is to run Bolt in place of Path in the main. Like Path it also snipes Vizier & Baral, gets our combo piece back from Queller, and takes care of aggro's Goblin Guide / Lord of Atlantis / Inkmoth Nexus, but it does so without accelerating them (especially important vs Storm) and is literally never a dead card since it can go to the face to help us pressure control, Tron, and Scapeshift, and it can deal with pesky Lilianas. We are already decent at blocking big vanilla grounded creatures like Death's Shadow, and Bolt can still be useful in that matchup if they're being too aggressive with their own life total. The biggest matchup you lose points to is Eldrazi Tron, however it's on the descent (I have zero copies in my meta) and Reality Smasher + Chalice can make Reflector Mage / Angel of Sanctions better than 1 CMC spot removal anyways. Additionally, Bolt is much worse against Humans in the mid-late game since they grow so fast but is better for nipping an early Champion or Hierarch in the bud. Either way I think tailoring our deck to the Humans matchup is a lost cause.
The main thing holding me back is the R cost. I have 13 red land sources for casting Bolt T1, which is one source lower than the Karsten calcs recommend (OK for Turn 2), and having to fetch a red shock more frequently puts additional stress on my life total, somewhat neutralizing the benefit of not ramping Burn. I suppose Bolt would also be less appealing for those of you that were thinking of running more Hierarch over Birds.
One option could be two Bolts + Reflector Mage / Angel of Sanctions in the main to combine efficient early interaction with a tutorable catch-all.
I agree with that basic core and that there are 7 flex slots give or take 1.
When I say it feels like ground zero on optimizing them its largely because I have personally only played a dozen or so matches and am constantly fiddling with those slots as it is. It takes time to figure out what decks the core handles and what decks or cards or situations it folds to - and then also figure which cards and how many slots work to efficiently shore those up.
I had one awful match where a meddling mage shut off my combo and I eventually succumbed to giant thalias lieutenants after chain blocking with voices raliers and tokens for several turns. Normally from a horrid board state the combo would be my hope - but mage/needle effects stop it, and it can also be easily dismantled by counterspells and removal - we do not have targeted discard or our own counters to protect or clear the way for a combo.
I had a game where opponent got eternal witness cryptic lock on me, and another w snapcaster cryptic chain, and there was nothing I could hope to do or draw. All the vor tokens in the world dont help when they are always tapped.
I dont know what I do about ensnaring bridge - probably just lose g1.
Post board rest in peace looks like a very bad time as it shuts off voice and rallier.
Burn looks horrendous with my fetch shock manabase and thragtusk as the only lifegain.
There are seven slots to shore up those kind of problems. But I dont even know which ones are realy worth solving or what cards can best hit multiple problems.
I like tireless tracker as a non-gy non-combo win condition and ca engine that has good synergy w cobra and the fetch manabase and even rallier recurring fetches.
I am pretty sure I want 2 paths main as relying on single copies of reflector mage or angel of sanctions sounds super dicey.
3ish slots left - how do I ever beat tron or valakut? Can I do anything about gy driven decks? I still need some way to beat burn and id like to not be cold to weird enchantments or artifacts. So do I switch the 2 paths for 2 explosives? Do I maindeck white gearhulk? Dont those both kinda nonbo with going wide?
Its tough!
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To answer your "Do we need another 4-drop" question: I played a couple of tournaments with only Felidar Guardians and some 5-drops, and I felt my options were a little too limited when I had a Voice to sac and an Evolution in hand. That's why I'm currently testing Sublime Archangel. I can get that whenever I just want to be proactive and try to pressure a linear deck.
The Avalanche Riders in Jeff Hoogland's list fulfills a similar role: Land destruction hits control, ramp and combo decks where it hurts and it is crazy good with Saheeli. While it doesn't care about spot removal, the body is small and it requires a big echo payment. It might be the best 4-drop in a metagame with lots of Tron, Titanshift and control.
Good: it's non-conditional, permanent, repeatable creature removal on a stick.
Bad: the BB casting cost.
Is the effect strong enough to warrant the mana strain? I'm not so sure, Evolution and Rainbow Dorks let us get away with a lot but BB is pretty tough.
----------
Meanwhile I've been working on tuning a "Hoogland-style" deck to my local metagame for evaluation this Friday.
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Lotus Cobra
1x Meddling Mage
4x Voice of Resurgence
3x Renegade Rallier
1x Eternal Witness
1x Kitchen Finks
2x Felidar Guardian
2x Siege Rhino
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1x Sigarda, Heron's Grace
1x Angel of Sanctions
Spells (13)
4x Oath of Nissa
4x Saheeli Rai
4x Eldritch Evolution
1x Chord of Calling
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Arid Mesa
1x Flooded Strand
1x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Stomping Ground
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Overgrown Tomb
2x Horizon Canopy
2x Forest
2x Plains
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Gaddock Teeg
1x Kataki, War's Wage
2x Stony Silence
2x Unified Will
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Izzet Staticaster
2x Reclamation Sage
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Cataclysmic Gearhulk
I continue to believe that the reach / offensive speed of Rhino is more valuable than the defensive grind-value of Thragtusk, so I've carried the Rhinos over into this test version. I also don't like waiting until we hit 5 mana (or Evo with a 3-drop in play) to start stabilizing against Burn, so I'm running a Finks over the 4th Rallier. I also have a lot of aggro decks in my meta so I'm running 2x Engineered Explosives in the side over the Acidic Slime / Avalanche Rider -- Tron has been pretty well surpressed here between all of the fast decks and regular Blood Moon players.
I agree with other posters here that 1 copy of Felidar Guardian is too little. Once your Felidar is Path'd your combo plan is over. Here I'm running 2 Cats with 5 tutors but I wouldn't be surprised if I find myself wishing for the 3rd Cat later.
I was really liking Thalia GoT but with the increased reliance on non-creature tutors for the combo over just casting Felidar Guardian it seems like the symmetry would start to hurt more.
Here's a snapshot of my local meta and current sideboarding plan if anyone has other suggestions, and here is a link to the sheet in case anyone joining here wants to save a copy for their own use.
As for Sublime Angel I think she's neat but I have too many Lightning Bolts wandering around my shop to play her comfortably.
Took my version for a spin last night to get a feel of a deck. I knew the deck can be explosive after watching Jeff Hoogland play this deck in MTGO (5-0 1 particular league) but its a matter of also piloting the deck in person and looking for various lines of play against other decks. Disclaimer: I do not have the "full" deck (4 Voice of Resurgence, Horizon Canopy) and ported most of the stuff from my old Kiki-Chord deck... I like this deck way more because I am not playing a bunch of 0 power mana dorks (BoP being the only ones)
Cobra Kai:
4 Renegade Rallier
4 Lotus Cobra
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Reflector Mage
1 Felidar Guardian
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Restoration Angel
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Sigarda, Heron's Grace
1 Thragtusk
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Sun Titan
4 Saheeli Rai
4 Oath of Nissa
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Voice of Resurgence
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Breeding Pool
5 Forest
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Plains
Deck was hilarious to play, one game i set up 11 power on board on turn 2. Opponent had no chance. In another game, I turn 3 Evo-ed a Lotus Cobra into Felidar Guardian after a turn 2 Saheeli. Kiki-Jiki and Restoration Angel is just for redundancy. I would most likely replace Kiki-Jiki for another Sun Titan as the triple red can be an issue. I am inclined to keep the Restoration Angel because you need flyers in Modern to go wide. Glen Elendra Archmage seems to be mandatory for me as she flies, has persist and is able to protect the board from sweepers or other unsavoury spells.
I am looking into enforcing the deck with a few Voice of Resurgences and/or Kitchen Finks. Kitchen Finks is great to play the stalling game. Tireless Tracker also looks great with its synergy with Lotus Cobra. I don't think Courser of Kulphix is a good idea because it is not good to reveal the combo to the opponent also, this deck has a relatively low land base count.
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
I played a few games vs Affinity & Jeskai last night with the list I posted. The results were about what you'd expect, I was crushed G1 vs Affinity and then won a little more than half of the post-board games. This is the second time in the last couple weeks a robot player has won through T2 Stony Silence, but T1 Birds -> T2 Evo into Kataki was a lot more effective in the following game. I clawed my way back into a third close game with T2 Cobra -> T3 Gearhulk. Against Jeskai the increased Rallier count was very useful and I managed to carefully resolve a couple Evos (including evolving a lone 1/1 Elemental token into a fresh Voice) without getting blown out.
I'm not going to lie, there were several times I would've liked to have drawn a Path. On the other hand, the increased threat density was pretty nice vs Jeskai.
I also had a couple games where I had Saheeli ready, cast Oath, and then sadly had to bottom Evo/Chord. My robots player also had Grafdigger's Cage in the SB which she landed in a couple games. Once you start to rely on Evo/Chord to find Felidar having both your combo and value plans stifled by Cage -- such an efficient and relatively common SB card -- doesn't feel great. This is part of the reason that I am (as expected) working the 3rd Felidar back in.
Jeff posted an updated list here. I'm not sure if he eventually ran into trouble against aggro swarm or just decided to test my suggestion but it's good to see the 2x EE and Gearhulk in there. And as Need_More_DPS mentioned Tireless Tracker is great with Cobra, cracking Clues is nice for Rallier's Revolt, and the card draw helps dig for combo pieces. The last time I tried Tracker I was somewhat underwhelmed because I felt like I didn't have enough mana around to really support her. With that in mind I'm going to try something crazy and test a 9-dork setup:
4x Birds of Paradise
1x Noble Hierarch
4x Lotus Cobra
4x Voice of Resurgence
3x Renegade Rallier
2x Tireless Tracker
1x Eternal Witness
1x Kitchen Finks
3x Felidar Guardian
2x Siege Rhino
1x Angel of Sanctions
Spells (12)
4x Oath of Nissa
4x Saheeli Rai
4x Eldritch Evolution
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Flooded Strand
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Stomping Ground
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Overgrown Tomb
2x Horizon Canopy
2x Forest
2x Plains
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Stony Silence
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Unified Will
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Izzet Staticaster
2x Reclamation Sage
1x Avalanche Riders
1x Chameleon Colossus
1x Cataclysmic Gearhulk
Having neither Meddling Mage, Path, nor Sigarda further softens the deck to Storm etc game one, but with the most ramp and combo pieces of any list I've tested it's got a decent shot at comboing out on T3... hopefully that balances out.
Lost round 1 to Titanshift because his draws in games 1 and 3 were great and mine weren't, but at least I won game 2 in a landslide (turn 2 Aven Mindcensor does some work in that matchup). Felt like I had decent chances, somewhere in the ballpark of 50:50, but variance.
In next three rounds I beat UW control, Affinity and Bogles without dropping a game. My draws ranged from good to absurd, and most of those games were not all that close.
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Birds of Paradise
4x Voice of Resurgence
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Lotus Cobra
1x Reflector Mage
2x Renegade Rallier
1x Eternal Witness
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Tireless Tracker
4x Felidar Guardian
1x Sigarda, Heron's Grace
1x Thragtusk
Other Spells 13
4x Oath of Nissa
2x Path to Exile
4x Saheeli Rai
3x Eldritch Evolution
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Arid Mesa
1x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Stomping Ground
1x Temple Garden
3x Forest
2x Plains
1x Mountain
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Spell Pierce
1x Path to Exile
1x Lighting Helix
1x Fiery Justice
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Stony Silence
1x Damping Matrix
2x Blood Moon
1x Worship
I cut Glorybringer for Sigarda, Herons Grace and neither missed the dragon nor liked the angel. Maybe I'll go back to Sun Titan or try out Reveillark or Acidic Slime in that spot. I also consciously cut another Path to Exile, since creature removal doesn't seem so important in game 1 right now (hence the Glorybringer cut), and was very happy with that decision when facing Titanshift, UW Control and Bogles in 3 of my 4 rounds.
Tireless Tracker was great the one time I drew it against UW, and probably won that game on its own.
For a while now I have been running the full set of Hierarchs and just two Birds (which even get boarded out in grindy matchups) and been happy with that configuration. Birds provide red mana and block in the air, but I prefer Exalted, and that gets even better the more you have. Hierarch is an actual damage source against decks like UW Control, whereas Birds is mostly just a dead draw after turn 1. Any thoughts on that? Why does everyone run 4 Birds and 0-2 Hierarchs? Is that just copy/pasted or are you guys actually convinced that's the right thing? (Not counting the people running Kiki, I get the necessity of Birds in that context.)
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Tireless Tracker is able to provide a growing body, card draw / card advantage and has interaction with Saheeli (Scry before draw) and Lotus Cobra... i think all these advantages surpass Blade Splicer's addition.
I have already added 2 into my deck and have seen all the possiblities and lines of plays it provides. The ability to draw cards also enables you to draw into Eldritch Evolution which is kind of lacking in EE variants that do not have Chord. You can float a lot of mana off the Lotus Cobra / Rallier combo to draw cards off Tireless Tracker and grow him. It also forces your opponent to interact with your board which takes away their answers for other threats you play later.
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
Blade Splicer can be a good build-around card in conjunction with Reveillark but otherwise it never impressed me significantly more than the other 3-drop options.
@Emzed - thanks for the report!
Any thoughts on Aven Mindcensor vs Avalanche Riders vs Magus of the Moon against Scapeshift?
What other decks do you bring Mindcensor in against?
As for Birds vs Hierarch -- I like Birds for extra red and black sources for Rhino / Explosives, blocking Affinity / Jeskai fliers, and generally operating more comfortably under an opposing Blood Moon. Running more Hierarchs might be correct, especially if you can keep your mana costs conservative. I suspect that for some people it might be partly tied to budget as well.
I'll try him out as a 2 of. I can see the lines with all the mana and card draws, but seems less aggressive to try and kill the opponent. Guess it's better in practice than in theory.
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I don't like Magus of the Moon against Scapeshift, they have so many red removal spells after sideboarding. Once it dies, they can just win. Blood Moon seems way more reliable. Aven Mindcensor and Avalanche Riders can actually fight their lands directly, so those seem better too. The echo on Avalanche Riders is annoying, otherwise it would be a lot easier to flicker it with Felidar Guardian and completely demolish them. If we could just have Ravenous Baboons in Modern...
Aven Mindcensor is for Titanshift, Vizier Company (Chord, Knight otR, lots of fetchlands), Storm (Gifts), Tron (Expedition Map, Sylvan Scrying) and control decks with fetchlands. It might just be better to run a second Gaddock Teeg instead, but I currently only have one copy, and against Titanshift specifically Aven Mindcensor is superior.
@Underused Cards: I have been in situations where I'm flooded and all I have are creatures of cmc 1-2. No combo in sight, nothing in the grave worth getting back with Rallier or Witness. Tireless Tracker is excellent to get with Evo in a spot like this, since it provides both a threat and draws a couple of cards. Last night I even copied it with Saheeli once to get some extra clues and an extra hit with the hasted token.
More generally I'm skeptical of running two Titans and the single pact or chord. Dorks die a lot and you can easily get stuck with evos and high CMC cards. It can also be hard to protect saheeli.
Edit: I also draw ralliers with no way to get revolt more than I'd like
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My decklist was essentially what I posted a few days back.
4x Birds of Paradise
1x Noble Hierarch
4x Lotus Cobra
4x Voice of Resurgence
3x Renegade Rallier
2x Tireless Tracker
1x Eternal Witness
1x Kitchen Finks
3x Felidar Guardian
2x Siege Rhino
1x Angel of Sanctions
Spells (12)
4x Oath of Nissa
4x Saheeli Rai
4x Eldritch Evolution
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Arid Mesa
1x Flooded Strand
1x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Stomping Ground
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Overgrown Tomb
2x Horizon Canopy
2x Forest
2x Plains
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Stony Silence
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Unified Will
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Izzet Staticaster
2x Reclamation Sage
1x Avalanche Riders
1x Chameleon Colossus
1x Cataclysmic Gearhulk
Round 2: 8-Rack (1-2)
G1 I combo out on T4 or T5 without response
G2/G3 Both games I got hit hard by early Smallpox, clearing a dork and setting me back to 1 land, followed by another Smallpox a few turns later. In G3 he cast Shadow of Doubt in response to me cracking my first fetch to effectively sinkhole me, followed shortly by Smallpox. In each game I spent 5 minutes trying to get a second mana source while I looked at a grip of uncastable 3-4 CMC cards. My opponent then set up his rack / Liliana lock to win.
SB IN +1 Thalia, +2 Rec Sage, +1 Chameleon Colossus // OUT -4 Birds of Paradise
My thought process on boarding here was that I wanted to still have some gas after getting hit by discard, trading dorks for quality cards like I would against a midrange deck. After playing I think this was a big mistake and that I should've treated it more like a prison deck by getting under it. Next time I’ll keep the Birds and trip the top of the curve so I’m less likely to get locked out of casting anything. Either way the combination of 3x Shadow of Doubt and 4x Smallpox is really tough. Spell Pierce would be a great tool here to help set up without having our manabase destroyed.
Round 3: Burn (0-2)
Both games my opponent did a great job of playing “Burn Control” and keeping my board clear with Searing Blaze / Searing Blood and a few other burn spells while his attackers chipped in. This kept Evolution trapped in my hand so I couldn't access Finks / Rhino. Game 2 he landed an early Eidolon and I didn't have an out.
SB IN +1 Thalia, +2 Unified Will, +2 Rec Sage // OUT -2 Tireless Tracker, -1 Saheeli, -1 Eternal Witness, -1 Angel of Sanctions
Round 4: BYE
No Path: during my first bye I took a survey of the decks present to assess whether I'd want Path against the field there. The results were 2x Cheerios (!), 1x Storm, 1x 8-rack, 1x Jund Shadow, 1x Grixis Shadow, 1x Tropical Fish, 1x Humans, 1x Burn, 1x Elves, 1x Amulet... so while I didn't miss Paths vs 8-Rack I think it would've been good to have against the field.
Another possibility is to run Explosives in the main, which would be better vs aggro, OK against shadow, but not much help vs Storm & Cheerios so I'd need to board more heavily against them. A third option would be to run a couple Runed Halos in the main which would have a similar effect at neutralizing a threat in Midrange and Aggro but perhaps give me a bit more game vs Grapeshot and Valakut game 1. WW sorcery speed isn’t great, through. Angel of Sanctions seemed too cumbersome, but this could be colored by my being stuck on 0-3 mana and no creatures to Evolve for most of the night
Eternal Witness: I had previously cut this card from the main due to the rapid speed of my predominantly aggro/combo meta but put it back in while trying elements of Hooglands list. I still don't know if I like it in the main -- I would board it out against 70+ percent of the matchups listed above. My combo attempt is most typically interrupted by removal of Felidar (Path/Push), in which case I'd just Evolve into another copy of Felidar instead of using Witness. Additionally I’m trying to favor creatures over spells in my SB, so rebuying spells with EW is less common. Tireless Tracker and Rallier seem better as card advantage options that double as effective threats for our Plan B while synergzing with Cobra.
5 dorks + 4 Cobras + 3 Ralliers: I'm not positive the extra lone Hierarch was necessary but overall I was happy with this ramp setup as I feel like having a starting hand with some ramp is important for me to have a chance in this meta.
Unified Will: This is another one that I tried as part of Hoogland's list but I still don't care for. I think I just don't have enough Big Mana decks in my meta to make it attractive. I will probably stick to a second Thalia and a Spell Pierce.
Moving forward I think I need a more solid plan against Storm...
EDIT: Meddling Mage seemed too narrow. I'll try adding a Bolt to the side instead of the 3rd Path since it's the most efficient way to remove Baral / Puresteel Paladin without ramping the opponent and also has some extra utility vs Walkers. Settled on this for now
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Lotus Cobra
4x Voice of Resurgence
1x Qasali Pridemage
3x Renegade Rallier
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Tireless Tracker
3x Felidar Guardian
2x Siege Rhino
Spells (14)
4x Oath of Nissa
4x Saheeli Rai
4x Eldritch Evolution
2x Path to Exile
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Arid Mesa
1x Flooded Strand
1x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Stomping Ground
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Overgrown Tomb
2x Horizon Canopy
2x Forest
2x Plains
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Lightning Bolt
1x Spell Pierce
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Stony Silence
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Tireless Tracker
1x Cataclysmic Gearhulk
Why not fourth rallier? Isn't this our main cobra payoff and one of the better things to pod a voice into for a free token?
Explosives seem mediocre as we have a lot of one's twos and threes while also having access to versatile removal options. Usually ee is used because it's likely one sided or because it's the best or only way to clear swarms or noncreature permanents
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Many of us have experienced diminishing returns on multiple Ralliers, instances where there's nothing useful left to rez or no fetches left to conveniently enable Revolt and he's just a vanilla 3/2 for 3. Maybe running 4 Cobras makes Rallier good reliably enough to warrant the full playset despite occasional awkwardness, I dunno yet. I think Hoogland was really hot on the full Rallier set since (1) it increases the chances of the T2 combo nut draw and (2) getting a Rallier out early gave Hoogland a body to Evolve into 5 CMC bullets. I suspect that the odds of the T2 combo are a little too low to be worth chasing and I'm not running any 5 CMC cards in the main to evolve into. Cobra pays off in lots of ways: it fills in our curve's hole at 2 CMC, it allows us to play Cobra T2 and then dump the whole combo on the board T3, it simultaneously generates mana while also pressuring combo/control opponents, and more.
Explosives on 2 is IMO one of our best options against Affinity, Humans, and Merfolk. If it blows up our Voice and we get a Elemental that's great for us, and if we lose a Cobra it's still worth it if we take out problematic cards like Plating, Freebooter, and Lords, respectively. Explosives on 1 is one of our better plays against Lantern. Losing one of our Birds is no problem if it wipes out their lock and puts us back in the game. Plus we can always Rallier rez these cards back later. Explosives on 1 is also decent against Elves and Death's Shadow. It can deal with all sorts of random troublesome permanents as you pointed out. Perhaps it's not meant for the mainboard but I think everyone should have a least one copy in the side if possible.
Hope that’s helpful!
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Lotus Cobra
4x Renegade Rallier
4x Voice of Resurgance
2x Felidar Guardian
1x Angel of Sanctions
1x Eternal Witness
1x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sun Titan
1x Tireless Tracker
1x Thragtusk
Spells(13)
4x Eldritch Evolution
4x Oath of Nissa
4x Saheeli Rai
1x Chord of Calling
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Windswept Heath
3x Flooded Strand
2x Forest
2x Horizon Canopy
2x Plains
1x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Stomping Ground
1x Temple Garden
2x Path to Exile
2x Unified Will
1x Avalanche Riders
1x Cataclysmic Gearhulk
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Glen Elendra Archmage
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Kataki War's Wage
1x Obstinate Baloth
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Reclamation Sage
Round 1 (Classic Jund):
My opponent clearly plays Jund regardless of the metagame with his all foil Jund deck featuring promo Bobs and invocation Thoughtseizes. Game 1 I stumble on mana after he rips my hand apart with some Seizes, plays a Bob, plays two Goyfs, and just rolls me.
Game 2 I am able to out value him with my Voices and Ralliers and he can't keep up.
Game 3 he stumbles on mana and before he is able to get anything going I am too far ahead. These BGx matchups feel very favorable as our value plan is just filthy against their 1 for 1's.
1-0
Round 2 (Lantern):
Game 1 is a long game as he begins to assemble the lock but I have him real low on life and a Pia and Kiran with a Saheeli in play. I just need one more turn to kill him. I mess up with my succession of my lands and end up having to shock myself down to four. He has Pyretic Spellbomb. Punt. However, he punts it right back and taps his Codex Shredder to mill rather than rebuy his Spellbomb so I end up winning the game I should have already won.
Game 2 he gets a Bridge down with one card in hand. I combo kill him.
2-0
Round 3 (Mono-U Living End):
Game 1 I am able to combo kill him before he can set up As Fortold
Game 2 He is able to Living End early and gets back 3 Serpent and just rolls me.
Game 3 I grind him out and set my self up to combo if he does find a Living End. He doesn't so I kill him with the beat 'em down plan.
3-0
Round 4 (Humans):
Game 1 He has a turn 1 Vial and is just able to flood the board before I can assemble the combo. I Oath'd 5 times or so and never saw Saheeli.
Game 2 He has turn 1 Vial again but I am able to tutor for Gearhulk and then overpower him from there.
Game 3 I keep a one land hand with Birds and double Oath. He plays Champion into Thalia which really slows me down. I fall too far behind. Whomp.
3-1
Round 5 (Jeskai Geist):
Game 1 I mulled to 5 but was able to grind and eventually combo.
Game 2 he has Turn 3, 4, and 5 Spell Queller and I am unable to get anything going.
Game 3 I have Voice. He kills it so I Evolve my token into a Voice and then just start Rallying back for the win.
4-1
Round 6 (Blue Moon):
Game 1 I am playing the value game and winning but then he Breaches into Emrakul. Ouch.
Game 2 I play the value game again and he stumbles a bit. Voice and Rallier do more work.
Game 3 is a long drawn out game but results in me setting up a turn where I play Thragtusk to put me above 15 so I don't die to random Breach. He kills the Tusk and the resulting Beast. I cast Sun Titan into Rallier into Voice. He has a draw to find a bolt. He whiffs. GG
5-1
Round 7 (Elves):
Game 1 I mull and keep a slow hand but it has the combo and a Voice. He mulls to 4. He goes Elf->Archdruid->Heritage->Ezuri. Wow. GG
Game 2 I have Bird into Rallier. My opponent plays several Elves. I Evolve my Rallier. My opponent taps his Elves in resp to Company. I assume he thought I was fetching for Linvala. He hits some Elves and I get Gearhulk and he just scoops.
Game 3 I again Evolve into a Gearhulk. He plays Mindscensor in resp. I path his Mindscensor and blow him out. GG
6-1
Round 8 (Affinity)
Game 1 I mull to 5 and he has a reasonable draw.
Game 2 I mull to 6 and he has a reasonable draw with Aethergrid.
6-2
Round 9 (Affinity)
Game 1 I mull to 6 and he has a reasonable draw
Game 2 I keep a good hand with multiple ways to interact. I one point I make a huge punt and lose because I suck. Ugh.
6-3
The deck was a BLAST to play and I will continue working on it. As for individual card choices/numbers all of the 4-ofs felt good. Rallier over-preformed all day. Sun Titan, when I cast it was good. I think I drew Chord once and it was fine. Pia was fine. Angel was whatever but I think you want that kind of effect to tutor for.
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
Does it just not matter? Why not a mix of all fetches to add some punch vs needles while still having more or less the same % to find various lands?
4x heath
2x mesa
2x foothills
2x misty
2x strand
Also why do we bother running unified will and not just negate? Is it really worth being able to hit creatures for the downside of sometimes not being able to cast it at all?
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
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BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Renegade Rallier
2 Felidar Guardian
4 Lotus Cobra
1 Sun Titan
1 Acidic Slime
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Sigarda, Heron's Grace
1 Thragtusk
Spells (13)
4 Oath of Nissa
4 Saheeli Rai
4 Eldritch Evolution
1 Path to Exile
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Temple Garden
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
1 Avalanche Riders
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Obstinate Baloth
2 Reclamation Sage
1 Cataclysmic Gearhulk
1 Stony Silence
1 Path to Exile
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Unified Will
The main switch I'm currently considering is swapping thragtusk+sun titan for 2x siege rhino. The burn matchup looks a little greasy to me as they can searing blaze or bolt the dorks and boros charm the saheelis (Resp to felidar trigger) and thrag is my only life gain. A turn 2 eidolon also looks horrific. In this case I would guess the hierarchs have to go back to being birds.
I have acidic slime straddling the line between Avalanche Riders and Angel of Sanctions - not sure if it works. It catches random aura/artifact, deathtouches goyfs and smashers, and can pick off lands while also being a good flicker/clone target (which angel is not). Does not hit planeswalkers but I'm not sure thats a big problem this deck has with its high creature density (just attack the walkers or ignore them)
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@BadMcFadden: Those of us that tried Acidic Slime found it to be really useful in a few niche situations as you mentioned but underwhelming on average. Its 2/2 deathtouch body is a good blocker against midrange but does nothing against combo and evasive aggro decks, and exerts relatively little pressure against control. Land destruction on a 5 drop is usually a little too slow to matter much unless you ramp and manage to Evolve a 3-drop into Slime on turn ~3. The artifact destruction is also a little slow to do much against Affinity or blow up Human/Merfolk/Taxes vials before they get the tempo advantage they need. It seems nice as a late-game catch-all answer to problematic hate cards but you usually won't have to deal with those game 1, anyways. IMO Qasali Pridemage is a better mainboard hedge against random artifacts and enchantments.
1 Path main and 1 in the side is kind of a strange hedge to me when you don't have any way to filter or tutor for that lone copy in the main. For consistency's sake I'd personally want both in the main or both in the side but that's just me. We'll see what Koopa thinks.
Most of us have cut the second Temple Gardens. This can be a third basic forest, Razorverge Thicket, or second Canopy. We're often fetching basics or splash-shocks, rarely Temple Gardens.
Lastly I'd say give the Rhinos a whirl!
I had the same thought on the single path - you don't usually run singletons that you have no way to tutor or at least dig for, but at the same time we can't run a bunch or we start hurting our oath selection. I've also found that an early goyf/shadow can be a problem for any sort of beatdown plan - perhaps this is where hoogland had the 1 reflector mage.
Edit: example of why some maindeck path are relevant - humans with meddling mage on saheeli. We have no way to kill 8/8 thalia's lieutenants and without access to the combo its pretty much hopeless as the game drags :/
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BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
Im sure some of these slots have to be meta based but I just like having a plan vs everything from game one on. If in the end theres a matchup I have to just concede then fine, but a value toolbox deck should be able to fix the vast majority of matchups.
When evolution was spoiled the focus was on t1 dork t2 evolve into a spellskite, eidolon of rhetoric, magus of the moon, etc. Is that still strong (ie maindeck a magus and an eidolon?).
I do think its important to not overdo the toolbox - we have 4 evolutions and usually want to get a guardian for combo or rallier for value. I think trying to evo into sigardas and thragtusks may be a trap.
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8x Dorks
4x Voice
4x Rallier
3-4x Felidar Guardian
4x Oath
4x Saheeli
3-4x Evolution
22x Land with 11x GW fetches, 4-5 basics, & 2x canopies
Leaving ~7 flex slots, of which I'd argue that 2-3x should be for removal leaving ~5 slots. If you have any ideas on the decks you want to target we could offer suggestions.
Emzed made a case against Magus of the Moon recently, promoting Aven Mindcensor as a tool against Scapeshift, Tron, and a few other decks. I've currently got Mindcensor in my side but it hasn't come up in play yet.
Personally I don't find Eidolon of Rhetoric to be maindeckable. The only decks I want him in against are Storm, Living End, and maybe Bushwacker Zoo. He shuts off snapcaster decks which is useful for grinding against Ux control decks but we want to be out-tempoing them, not out-grinding them. Instant-heavy decks also do a better job of getting around Eidolon by casting one spell on both their turn and during our turn, which we can't do since we have very few instant-speed spells compared to Kiki-Chord. Path to Exile, Gaddock Teeg, Meddling Mage, and possibly New Sigarda are better, broader MB cards that also have game against Storm IMO.
---------------
@Lejoon, Koopa, others: one idea I've been toying with is to run Bolt in place of Path in the main. Like Path it also snipes Vizier & Baral, gets our combo piece back from Queller, and takes care of aggro's Goblin Guide / Lord of Atlantis / Inkmoth Nexus, but it does so without accelerating them (especially important vs Storm) and is literally never a dead card since it can go to the face to help us pressure control, Tron, and Scapeshift, and it can deal with pesky Lilianas. We are already decent at blocking big vanilla grounded creatures like Death's Shadow, and Bolt can still be useful in that matchup if they're being too aggressive with their own life total. The biggest matchup you lose points to is Eldrazi Tron, however it's on the descent (I have zero copies in my meta) and Reality Smasher + Chalice can make Reflector Mage / Angel of Sanctions better than 1 CMC spot removal anyways. Additionally, Bolt is much worse against Humans in the mid-late game since they grow so fast but is better for nipping an early Champion or Hierarch in the bud. Either way I think tailoring our deck to the Humans matchup is a lost cause.
The main thing holding me back is the R cost. I have 13 red land sources for casting Bolt T1, which is one source lower than the Karsten calcs recommend (OK for Turn 2), and having to fetch a red shock more frequently puts additional stress on my life total, somewhat neutralizing the benefit of not ramping Burn. I suppose Bolt would also be less appealing for those of you that were thinking of running more Hierarch over Birds.
One option could be two Bolts + Reflector Mage / Angel of Sanctions in the main to combine efficient early interaction with a tutorable catch-all.
Thoughts?
When I say it feels like ground zero on optimizing them its largely because I have personally only played a dozen or so matches and am constantly fiddling with those slots as it is. It takes time to figure out what decks the core handles and what decks or cards or situations it folds to - and then also figure which cards and how many slots work to efficiently shore those up.
I had one awful match where a meddling mage shut off my combo and I eventually succumbed to giant thalias lieutenants after chain blocking with voices raliers and tokens for several turns. Normally from a horrid board state the combo would be my hope - but mage/needle effects stop it, and it can also be easily dismantled by counterspells and removal - we do not have targeted discard or our own counters to protect or clear the way for a combo.
I had a game where opponent got eternal witness cryptic lock on me, and another w snapcaster cryptic chain, and there was nothing I could hope to do or draw. All the vor tokens in the world dont help when they are always tapped.
I dont know what I do about ensnaring bridge - probably just lose g1.
Post board rest in peace looks like a very bad time as it shuts off voice and rallier.
Burn looks horrendous with my fetch shock manabase and thragtusk as the only lifegain.
There are seven slots to shore up those kind of problems. But I dont even know which ones are realy worth solving or what cards can best hit multiple problems.
I like tireless tracker as a non-gy non-combo win condition and ca engine that has good synergy w cobra and the fetch manabase and even rallier recurring fetches.
I am pretty sure I want 2 paths main as relying on single copies of reflector mage or angel of sanctions sounds super dicey.
3ish slots left - how do I ever beat tron or valakut? Can I do anything about gy driven decks? I still need some way to beat burn and id like to not be cold to weird enchantments or artifacts. So do I switch the 2 paths for 2 explosives? Do I maindeck white gearhulk? Dont those both kinda nonbo with going wide?
Its tough!
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