"No one spoke. There was no need. The threat of the Eldrazi presented a simple choice: lay down your arms and die for nothing, or hold them fast and die for something."
So I've been working on this deck for about a year, and I believe that I've gotten it to a pretty competitive place. I'm hoping to get some advice here about the list, and how I can improve it, particularly against Tron and Shadow decks which are prominent right now. I've tested fairly well against them, my ratio is around 50/50 for each match up which, given that this is more or less a brew, I'm really happy with. I'm hoping that some particularly skilled players could help me out.
So with that, I'll post the deck, the relevant information I believe is important to know, cool interactions and see what the community thinks. If you think this list has some potential, please share it with someone and see what they think. I'm planning on taking it to some pptqs this month, and my hope is to provide some detailed reporting regarding my matches.
Let's talk about what the deck's primary ideas are.
In case you didn't see it, the goal of the deck is to get underneath an opponent, using early disruption in the form Inquisition of Kozilek and Thoughtseize along with counters like Delay and Remand and removal in the form of Path to Exile. Creatures like Spell Queller and Wasteland Strangler come in to take control of the mid-game. Thoughtknot Seer is also a huge boon early to mid-game, but discussing the merits of TKS at this stage seems redundant. Mid to late game insurance policies comes in the form of Reality Smasher
The best way I've found to describe how it feels is that it plays like a hybrid of U/B Faeries and W/B processor control. For this reason, the deck often plays very differently from game to game. Sometimes, you'll find yourself stripping you opponent's hand to shreds. Other times, you'll play a hard control game that denies them the chance to do anything.
Exile It, then Process It for Value
Between 4 Paths, 3 Thoughtknot Seers, 3 Delays, 4 Quellers, a mainboarded Surgical Extraction, and [insert aven in a fruit tree joke here] getting cards into the exile bin is pretty regular. However, I'd be lying if there weren't times where I really need a card in the bin. (I've considered adding several card to help with this Rest in Peace and Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver are two that come to mind).
Turning all those exiled cards into a resource for yourself is what this deck is all about. Understanding how to use the processors takes some getting used to, sometimes it's not as simple as process a card, kill a creature or counter a spell. You'll need to be a bit nuanced in what you choose to process and when you do it. Often, it's more advantageous to wait on processing a Delayed card until the last second rather than just getting it off the board and windmill slamming that Strangler. Sometimes you'll need to target one of your own Thoughtknot Seers or Smashers with a Strangler's ability (after combat of course) in order to keep a spell from coming off of a queller or delay. Know your lines.
Let's talk about Spell Queller. In case you didn't know, this card is the real deal. Spell Queller is remarkably versatile. Let's quickly run down what it can do.
* He's Freakin' Julian Edelman (he catches everything):Supreme Verdict or Abrupt Decay doesn't matter, nearly every relevant card in modern is a possibility.
* Surprise combat: (Flashy chumpblock which is underrated btw). Don't think you're wasting your queller, you have Eldrazi Displacer you'll get your value (if it doesn't die), and it beats for 2 in the air which isn't really with a removal spell in many cases so often, it'll get some chip damage in.
* Serves as a hideaway card for your own spells: Let's say you're down to a few cards, and you draw something you really want to stick. But oh no, your opponent has counter mana up. No worries, in response to his counter, flicker you (ideally cleaned) spell queller, exile your own card. Then swing away into that Resto Angel, or flicker it again and get your spell at will. (this is particularly nasty if you draw a late Inquisition or Thoughtseize--wait till your opponent draws, then flicker the queller. Yah, you just snagged their draw.
Let's get into card choices and interactions
Most of the choices in the deck are pretty obvious, so I won't waste time explaining why cards like Inquisition and Path are good. I'll stick to card choices that seem odd at first glance, and I'll discuss some interactions that are not, at the surface level, obvious--at least not to a novice like me. Now some of this may seem cute, but it's super potent, really shows the potential of cards like Eldrazi Displacer. Let's look at one of the core interactions.
This little bit of synergy works to effectively lock up the opponent. Cleaning those quellers is a priority, so I've jammed 6 processors into the deck. Additionally, once your opponent's exile bin starts looking pretty full, you can use Ulamog's Nullifier in a similar manner.
Delay: When I realized that I would need help finding processor fodder I realized that I'd need to be creative, and with some help from a patron named jwelt(wherever you are dude, keep brewing), I found Delay. Delay is a great tempo piece that when combined with a processor functions like remand without the boon, yes, but without the late game drawback either. It's won many games for me, even when it only stalls a spell for 3 turns.
Ulamog's Nullifier: This is a card that gets boarded out at times, as at 4 cmc, it can be slow. Also, playing it's counter ability requires 2 cards in exile, but when this card hits, man it is a blow out. I'd like to point out that, with an Eldrazi Temple in play this card becomes much more playable. And with 3 serums, and 3 Remands, seeing a temple is fairly dependable. Off of Cavern, it's uncounterable, and at the very least, it's a sneaky chump blocker for that Mutavault that wants to sneak in some damage. *With regards to sideboarding, I'm of the opinion that having one or two easy outs make that process much, much easier for novice players. While this is meant for competitive play (ideally), it's nice to have something you don't need to rack your brain over on round 5.
Surgical Extraction: I know I'm not the only one who realizes that good cards generally have high price tags for a reason, Surgical Extraction is no exception to this rule. I won't tell you why it's great in your sideboard, but here, it's not a sideboard tool. It's a main-deckable utility card that is single most potent cards in the deck. You say you really dislike that Ad Nauseaum player at your LGS? Thoughseize into Surgical is a great way to get under his/her skin.
Scavenger GroundsI know it's really obvious why this card is in there, but I couldn't resist the opportunity to talk about it. I've often considered a main deck Relic of Progenitus but could never justify it. Now, I have one in the form of a land! Is it exactly the same? No, of course not, but it's in it's own way better. Helps with my colorless mana, doesn't add to my card count (as it is a land), and can't be countered. (although who counters relic?)
Interactions you need to know
* Queller/Displacer/Processor: this is the core concept of the deck. Understanding how to use your quellers is a must.
* Thoughtknot Seer and Eldrazi Displacer: Understanding how you can use this pairing to control your opponent's turn is pretty easy to comprehend, but vital for you to understand how and when to use it.
* Delay and any processor: Cards that are suspended are exiled, as such you can process them and use that to your advantage (*Note, this also works really well on cards your opponent suspends, for example Ancestral Visions or [/card]Lotus Bloom[/card].
Let's talk about match ups
I'm not particularly good at analyzing the ins and outs of every deck that I don't play. So I can't tell you specific numbers or percentages. I'd like to one day get there, but for now, I'm just looking for advice so I'm going to cover things broadly for the most part and address specific decks I know people are probably wondering about in a more specific manner.
So, very broadly, I believe the deck has a pretty fair match up against many of the decks out there, including Shadow decks (Tron decks are a bit more tricky, but still very winnable). Against spell based combo decks this shines pretty brightly, Ad Naus, Scapeshift, Storm, this can really do some work. Aggro-Combo (infect/suicide bloo) also, not terrible (Strangler's devoid is pretty sweet). Traditional Aggro decks are fine too. Midrange decks are generally not too hard to get under (Shadow decks being the exception) and the suite of counters and disruption means that traditional abzan decks aren't too difficult. Control decks, also not to bad as I feel that I can play the draw go game as well as any of them.
So do I have difficulty with?
My record against traditional Jund is abysmal. That deck just ran too many powerful removal cards to keep up with. As GDS has taken on much of the same roll with nearly as many removal options, that deck can be difficult as well (although not unwinnable). Burn, can be an issue, however, if I can survive my opponent's opening 7, I have a great shot at stabilizing and removing his threats via processed cards and Stranglers. Tron, that deck's high mana costs mean that game 1 my quellers do very little, however, games 2 and 3 become much better with the board. Any advice on these would be greatly appreciated. Thankfully, Jund is more or less in hiding, and Lightning Bolt is becoming less and less prominent (for now), and my board is fairly well put together given the current meta. Finally, as to be expected, dedicated Blood Moon decks.
So what causes these difficulties. Well, in some cases it's pretty clear. I run very few basics, so B-Moon hurts. Removal heavy decks can eat my quellers before I have time to clean them. And sometimes, my deck just feels like it can't get over the hump. Displacer/Stranger are only 3 power, Quellers and Nullifiers only 2. Smasher and TKS are amazing, but adding more smashers seems like it would dilute things, and adding another TKS has thrown off the curve on my delicate mana balance in the past. If you have ideas, please post them in the comments!
Plea for Guidence
I know that all seems like a lot to read, and it was a lot to type (but I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy it). I didn't set out to write a primer for a deck no one knows, but I realize that what I've done is similar. I'm really just looking to get help and opinions on the deck and to see where people stand on it. I hope I've made the read somewhat pleasant.
Please take the time to vote at the top of the page. If you believe the deck has potential and have ideas regarding how to make the deck stronger, please help out and post your thoughts here. Help is always appreciated.
If you'd like to see it in action, I'm on cockatrice (user name: Ely), you may have run into me.
No one spoke. There was no need. The threat of the Eldrazi presented a simple choice: lay down your arms and die for nothing, or hold them fast and die for something.
great article Dan, the deck is a lot of fun to play and has some amazing lines of play. i think Ashiok would be a great addition to the deck, given it could help you play an opponents big creature to go over the top? i'll definitely try it and let you know how it goes.
Thanks for the comment! And thanks for take the time to look though it.
I've played with Ashiok on and off over the last year and it's always been a fun card. I think it's strong in more goyfy meta's than shadowy metas so in my LGS, I've ended up moving away from the card. But when it shines, it really shines and has won many games for me. Sometimes, however, it's a dead card in your hand though, which is unfortunate. At 3 cmc, Ashiok suffers from "well I'd rather cast X this turn" syndrome.
I do have some PPTQ results to post. I have taken the deck to 2 tournaments over the last three weeks, and while I have not done as well as I would have hoped (3/3 in both tournaments) I was pleased with it's performance over all, notching wins against Grixis Shadow twice, Affinity, Elves, 8 whack, and Jeskai Control among others. But the deck's inconsistencies did prove to be an issue as I lost to R/W control deck, Eldrazi Tron, G/W Tron, Ponza, Merfolk, and a second match with Affinity.
As stated in my original post, one of the features that makes this deck so fun to play is that each game feels different. Sometimes you're playing a draw-go style tempo/control game, sometimes you'll shred their hand into oblivion with disruption. Occasionally, you're even on the beat down with fast monsters like TKS and Smasher. Unfortunately, there are times where things just don't coalesce the way you need them too. Sometimes things just go bad, and your Queller gets bolted after catching a blood moon on turn 3, by a hidden mana monkey's (Simian Spirit Guide) lightning bolt (that felt terrible btw). But I've learned some good lessons from these two tournaments.
1) I need to improve the consistency of the deck, an additional Serum Visions may help here. Perhaps a Cryptic Command could help here as well.
2) I need to address Tron decks somehow. Spell Queller is woefully bad against big mana Tron. I'll need to pack a few good anti-Tron cards in the board for that match up. Obviously, Ceremonious Rejection comes to mind, but if anyone else out there knows some good colorless hosers, ine esper colors, please let me know.
I'm happy with the way the deck is progressing. Beating Grixis Shadow both times I faced it felt good. And evening things up in the Affinity match up gave me hope too. Losing to Blood Moon and land destruction sucks, but sometimes there's just not much you can do about it. Going into the tournament, I believed my Tron match up was better than it was, I'll have to keep testing that one as we go forward.
As always, if you have any ideas or questions, please don't hesitate to speak up in the comments. Thanks to everyone who's come to check out the deck. I'll post any changes and continued tournament results as they come.
Rationale: In an attempt to shore up a more consistent and smoother game, I've gone to 4 serum visions. Preliminary results seem good. Although with cantrips like serum it's hard to tell. Dropping thoughtsieze altogether was not too hard. Collective Brutality is a great card right now, and it shores up some of our more stressful match ups like burn. Going down a Spell Queller is something I was hesitant to do at first, but after trying it out, it seems okay. I'm still seeing them when I want them generally.
Let's get into the sideboard which received a complete overhaul.
Here's the new board
Most entries here should be pretty obvious. 3 Ceremonious Rejections are helping to shore up the Tron match up. Detention Sphere is there to deal with Ensnaring Bridge and other problem cards that need to be removed.
So far, so good.
No one spoke. There was no need. The threat of the Eldrazi presented a simple choice: lay down your arms and die for nothing, or hold them fast and die for something.
Nothing much new to report. I have been playing the current build with success at FNM (3 wins locally) and online (find me on cockatrice). Condemn has been removed from the SB and replaced with Blessed Alliance as a good catch all to Death Shadow and Burn. I'm currently in the process of testing Opt over Serum. Preliminary result have been good, but Serum seems to be the stronger card as it allows me to dig deeper for mana.
The deck continues to surprise people with its resilience, particularly against decks which play low to the ground like affinity. The lack of Lightning Bolt in the format continues to be a boon; however, I have noticed it creeping up in lists of late. It's perfectly fine to see though, it's just something to be careful of. Mono white hatebears is another deck that has recently been trying- I don't see it with regularity in my meta, but will consider swapping out cards from the SB, for Flaying Tendrils if they continue to show prominence online.
I'll check back with some results regarding Opt. If you have any ideas regarding the current list, please let me know.
Please take the time to vote at the top of the page. If you believe the deck has potential and have ideas regarding how to make the deck stronger, please help out and post your thoughts here. Help is always appreciated.
No one spoke. There was no need. The threat of the Eldrazi presented a simple choice: lay down your arms and die for nothing, or hold them fast and die for something.
Nullifier seems too cute to me. It has two serious conditions to meet if it's going to be better than just meh as a flash 2/3 for four. And your deck mostly isn't playing at instant speed. Having played a lot with Blight Herder in a 4x Relic of Progenitus build for many, many moths, my guess is that you're casting Nullifier vanilla instead of for a counter in most cases.
In general I'd be worried about my life total from lands in this deck, and Nullifier only aggravates the need for painful mana. Do you have data around how often you play it for value compared to how often you have to just throw it out EOT for beats?
I'd be inclined to suggest 2x Eldrazi Skyspawner there, to still give you value (but unconditional this time) with Displacer, and to make up somewhat for missing out on the unbelievably good Lingering Souls.
Seems like a super fun deck but I wonder if you might be spread a little too thin here.
You know, I never gave much thought to how often I cast Nullifier as a simple 2/3 flash flier. I have to admit that it does happen, not frequently, but yeah- you're definitely on to something. I'm afraid I don't have any raw data for that one, but it's something to consider for sure. Nullifier is frequently one of the cards that I cut during sideboarding, and I have often thought that the deck could use a token creator such as Blight Herder or Drowner of Hope, both of which I've played around with periodically (Drowner being the stronger of the two). But I've always found that they were just too much alongside Reality Smasher. Eldrazi Skyspawner might just be the card I'm looking for, I'll have to check it out immediately. That's an exciting proposition.
In defense of Nullifier however, and perhaps we can weigh this consideration, it's a processor that can clean cards off of Spell Queller and remove Delayed threats. This is no small thing. Cards simply cannot sit on quellers or in suspend without a plan to take care of them permanently, and while Wasteland Strangler is great, Nullifier provides an additional insurance policy here. But, as you correctly said, there are times (usually in matches where I'm behind) that I'm casting it just to get a body on the field. I'm going to have to seriously crunch some numbers.
Thank you for taking the time to read and comment! I'll try and get some hard data up here as soon as possible.
Dan
*Hot damn, that's a good idea...
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
No one spoke. There was no need. The threat of the Eldrazi presented a simple choice: lay down your arms and die for nothing, or hold them fast and die for something.
Hey boss,
looks like you've got a spicey little deck yourself. I like what you've done with the build. It looks like you're good on exile effects, but if you start to run into problems, Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver looks like it'd be a fine addition to a build like this (maybe it can go in the board). You could probably go down one spell snare for it, if you wanted it in the main though. That is, if you're having issues with getting/keeping things in exile.
You're not running the soft lock combo in Eldrazi Displacer + Ulamog's Nullifier (Queller for me, but it's essentially the same idea) and exile effects which is sort of the crux of my particular build, but I can see where you made the choices you've made.
Your considerations are solid. You're right, you can spare a Delay. Although I'm not big on reciprocate myself, as I think you have more than enough in the way of removal (3 strangler and 4 paths is pretty solid and can take care of just about anything), something else in that slot couldn't hurt. If anything, I think you need to shore up some of your disruption effects, so my mind goes to something like Collective Brutality. Which is fine as a singleton, and can help out against a litany of match-ups.
What I saw that concerned me: I didn't personally have any luck with Tidehollow Sculler as he almost always got pushed, pathed, decayed, or bolted before I could process the card, making him ultimately useless. For me, I think your better off getting sure things into the exile bin and keeping them there, for this you'd be hard pressed to find something better than the following for your current build: [/card]Surgical Extraction/Extirpate, Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, or Relic of Progenitus.
I really like your instincts on the cantrips--making sure you hit what you want to hit is really a very solid way to go. And your processor count looks fine to me at 6, but if you want to swap in another strangler and out another Nullifier you may find yourself happier. In my year plus of playing the deck, I've often found that 4 stranglers is just the way to go. Personally, I think you need a stronger finisher than flurry of small to mid-sized creatures, but if you had bad luck with Smasher then don't force it. Might I suggest a trio of Thoughtknot Seers in place of your tidehollows? Yes, your lose a bit on speed, but your top end is waaaay better, and your exiled cards are exiled forever. You curve out a bit more nicely with, cantrips on T1, counters on T2, quellers on T3, and TKS on 4. It wouldn't be hard to retool your mana base to support them: a couple temples, some filterlands, a single waste and boom you got it. Or if you're uncomfortable with that, take advantage of Lingering Souls, it really is one of the best cards in the format right now.
Ultimately, gun to my head, if you I had to make changes to your list (which may not need changes mind you), I would drop the 4 Tidehollow Scullers and put in 3 Lingering Souls and an Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver. I'd also drop 1 Nullifier, and put in 1 more Strangler. This would free up your board for more consistency (i.e. adding Ceremonious Rejections--no, really you need 3). That's if you don't want to change your mana base at all. IF you're willing to tinker with the mana, then that's a different story. But I don't want your deck to look too much like mine.
Keep us posted, I'm excited to see what you're working with!
Dan
P.S. Disrupting Shoal huh....Interesting. \
P.P.S. My current build
No one spoke. There was no need. The threat of the Eldrazi presented a simple choice: lay down your arms and die for nothing, or hold them fast and die for something.
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"No one spoke. There was no need. The threat of the Eldrazi presented a simple choice: lay down your arms and die for nothing, or hold them fast and die for something."
So I've been working on this deck for about a year, and I believe that I've gotten it to a pretty competitive place. I'm hoping to get some advice here about the list, and how I can improve it, particularly against Tron and Shadow decks which are prominent right now. I've tested fairly well against them, my ratio is around 50/50 for each match up which, given that this is more or less a brew, I'm really happy with. I'm hoping that some particularly skilled players could help me out.
So with that, I'll post the deck, the relevant information I believe is important to know, cool interactions and see what the community thinks. If you think this list has some potential, please share it with someone and see what they think. I'm planning on taking it to some pptqs this month, and my hope is to provide some detailed reporting regarding my matches.
So here we go...
Creature (16)
3 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Wasteland Strangler
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Spell Queller
1 Ulamog's Nullifier
2 Reality Smasher
Instant (16)
4 Path to Exile
4 Remand
3 Delay
1 Surgical Extraction
4 Opt
Land (23)
3 Polluted Delta
1 Watery Grave
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Adarkar Wastes
3 Eldrazi Temple
3 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Island
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Mystic Gate
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Godless Shrine
1 Scavenger Grounds
1 Underground River
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Collective Brutality
1 Pithing Needle
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Detention Sphere
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
3 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Lingering Souls
In case you didn't see it, the goal of the deck is to get underneath an opponent, using early disruption in the form Inquisition of Kozilek and Thoughtseize along with counters like Delay and Remand and removal in the form of Path to Exile. Creatures like Spell Queller and Wasteland Strangler come in to take control of the mid-game. Thoughtknot Seer is also a huge boon early to mid-game, but discussing the merits of TKS at this stage seems redundant. Mid to late game insurance policies comes in the form of Reality Smasher
The best way I've found to describe how it feels is that it plays like a hybrid of U/B Faeries and W/B processor control. For this reason, the deck often plays very differently from game to game. Sometimes, you'll find yourself stripping you opponent's hand to shreds. Other times, you'll play a hard control game that denies them the chance to do anything.
Exile It, then Process It for Value
Between 4 Paths, 3 Thoughtknot Seers, 3 Delays, 4 Quellers, a mainboarded Surgical Extraction, and [insert aven in a fruit tree joke here] getting cards into the exile bin is pretty regular. However, I'd be lying if there weren't times where I really need a card in the bin. (I've considered adding several card to help with this Rest in Peace and Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver are two that come to mind).
Turning all those exiled cards into a resource for yourself is what this deck is all about. Understanding how to use the processors takes some getting used to, sometimes it's not as simple as process a card, kill a creature or counter a spell. You'll need to be a bit nuanced in what you choose to process and when you do it. Often, it's more advantageous to wait on processing a Delayed card until the last second rather than just getting it off the board and windmill slamming that Strangler. Sometimes you'll need to target one of your own Thoughtknot Seers or Smashers with a Strangler's ability (after combat of course) in order to keep a spell from coming off of a queller or delay. Know your lines.
Let's talk about Spell Queller. In case you didn't know, this card is the real deal. Spell Queller is remarkably versatile. Let's quickly run down what it can do.
* He's Freakin' Julian Edelman (he catches everything):Supreme Verdict or Abrupt Decay doesn't matter, nearly every relevant card in modern is a possibility.
* Surprise combat: (Flashy chumpblock which is underrated btw). Don't think you're wasting your queller, you have Eldrazi Displacer you'll get your value (if it doesn't die), and it beats for 2 in the air which isn't really with a removal spell in many cases so often, it'll get some chip damage in.
* Serves as a hideaway card for your own spells: Let's say you're down to a few cards, and you draw something you really want to stick. But oh no, your opponent has counter mana up. No worries, in response to his counter, flicker you (ideally cleaned) spell queller, exile your own card. Then swing away into that Resto Angel, or flicker it again and get your spell at will. (this is particularly nasty if you draw a late Inquisition or Thoughtseize--wait till your opponent draws, then flicker the queller. Yah, you just snagged their draw.
Most of the choices in the deck are pretty obvious, so I won't waste time explaining why cards like Inquisition and Path are good. I'll stick to card choices that seem odd at first glance, and I'll discuss some interactions that are not, at the surface level, obvious--at least not to a novice like me. Now some of this may seem cute, but it's super potent, really shows the potential of cards like Eldrazi Displacer. Let's look at one of the core interactions.
This little bit of synergy works to effectively lock up the opponent. Cleaning those quellers is a priority, so I've jammed 6 processors into the deck. Additionally, once your opponent's exile bin starts looking pretty full, you can use Ulamog's Nullifier in a similar manner.
Delay: When I realized that I would need help finding processor fodder I realized that I'd need to be creative, and with some help from a patron named jwelt(wherever you are dude, keep brewing), I found Delay. Delay is a great tempo piece that when combined with a processor functions like remand without the boon, yes, but without the late game drawback either. It's won many games for me, even when it only stalls a spell for 3 turns.
Ulamog's Nullifier: This is a card that gets boarded out at times, as at 4 cmc, it can be slow. Also, playing it's counter ability requires 2 cards in exile, but when this card hits, man it is a blow out. I'd like to point out that, with an Eldrazi Temple in play this card becomes much more playable. And with 3 serums, and 3 Remands, seeing a temple is fairly dependable. Off of Cavern, it's uncounterable, and at the very least, it's a sneaky chump blocker for that Mutavault that wants to sneak in some damage.
*With regards to sideboarding, I'm of the opinion that having one or two easy outs make that process much, much easier for novice players. While this is meant for competitive play (ideally), it's nice to have something you don't need to rack your brain over on round 5.
Surgical Extraction: I know I'm not the only one who realizes that good cards generally have high price tags for a reason, Surgical Extraction is no exception to this rule. I won't tell you why it's great in your sideboard, but here, it's not a sideboard tool. It's a main-deckable utility card that is single most potent cards in the deck. You say you really dislike that Ad Nauseaum player at your LGS? Thoughseize into Surgical is a great way to get under his/her skin.
Scavenger GroundsI know it's really obvious why this card is in there, but I couldn't resist the opportunity to talk about it. I've often considered a main deck Relic of Progenitus but could never justify it. Now, I have one in the form of a land! Is it exactly the same? No, of course not, but it's in it's own way better. Helps with my colorless mana, doesn't add to my card count (as it is a land), and can't be countered. (although who counters relic?)
Interactions you need to know
* Queller/Displacer/Processor: this is the core concept of the deck. Understanding how to use your quellers is a must.
* Thoughtknot Seer and Eldrazi Displacer: Understanding how you can use this pairing to control your opponent's turn is pretty easy to comprehend, but vital for you to understand how and when to use it.
* Delay and any processor: Cards that are suspended are exiled, as such you can process them and use that to your advantage (*Note, this also works really well on cards your opponent suspends, for example Ancestral Visions or [/card]Lotus Bloom[/card].
Let's talk about match ups
I'm not particularly good at analyzing the ins and outs of every deck that I don't play. So I can't tell you specific numbers or percentages. I'd like to one day get there, but for now, I'm just looking for advice so I'm going to cover things broadly for the most part and address specific decks I know people are probably wondering about in a more specific manner.
So, very broadly, I believe the deck has a pretty fair match up against many of the decks out there, including Shadow decks (Tron decks are a bit more tricky, but still very winnable). Against spell based combo decks this shines pretty brightly, Ad Naus, Scapeshift, Storm, this can really do some work. Aggro-Combo (infect/suicide bloo) also, not terrible (Strangler's devoid is pretty sweet). Traditional Aggro decks are fine too. Midrange decks are generally not too hard to get under (Shadow decks being the exception) and the suite of counters and disruption means that traditional abzan decks aren't too difficult. Control decks, also not to bad as I feel that I can play the draw go game as well as any of them.
So do I have difficulty with?
My record against traditional Jund is abysmal. That deck just ran too many powerful removal cards to keep up with. As GDS has taken on much of the same roll with nearly as many removal options, that deck can be difficult as well (although not unwinnable). Burn, can be an issue, however, if I can survive my opponent's opening 7, I have a great shot at stabilizing and removing his threats via processed cards and Stranglers. Tron, that deck's high mana costs mean that game 1 my quellers do very little, however, games 2 and 3 become much better with the board. Any advice on these would be greatly appreciated. Thankfully, Jund is more or less in hiding, and Lightning Bolt is becoming less and less prominent (for now), and my board is fairly well put together given the current meta. Finally, as to be expected, dedicated Blood Moon decks.
So what causes these difficulties. Well, in some cases it's pretty clear. I run very few basics, so B-Moon hurts. Removal heavy decks can eat my quellers before I have time to clean them. And sometimes, my deck just feels like it can't get over the hump. Displacer/Stranger are only 3 power, Quellers and Nullifiers only 2. Smasher and TKS are amazing, but adding more smashers seems like it would dilute things, and adding another TKS has thrown off the curve on my delicate mana balance in the past. If you have ideas, please post them in the comments!
These are some test videos (I will upload more as I get to know my software, but for now enjoy my dulcet tones.)
https://youtu.be/GC4HUX4moTk Vs. Storm Game 1
https://youtu.be/xhA1hWpb_a8 Vs. Blue Affinity
Plea for Guidence
I know that all seems like a lot to read, and it was a lot to type (but I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy it). I didn't set out to write a primer for a deck no one knows, but I realize that what I've done is similar. I'm really just looking to get help and opinions on the deck and to see where people stand on it. I hope I've made the read somewhat pleasant.
Please take the time to vote at the top of the page. If you believe the deck has potential and have ideas regarding how to make the deck stronger, please help out and post your thoughts here. Help is always appreciated.
If you'd like to see it in action, I'm on cockatrice (user name: Ely), you may have run into me.
Thank you for reading.
Dan
I've played with Ashiok on and off over the last year and it's always been a fun card. I think it's strong in more goyfy meta's than shadowy metas so in my LGS, I've ended up moving away from the card. But when it shines, it really shines and has won many games for me. Sometimes, however, it's a dead card in your hand though, which is unfortunate. At 3 cmc, Ashiok suffers from "well I'd rather cast X this turn" syndrome.
I do have some PPTQ results to post. I have taken the deck to 2 tournaments over the last three weeks, and while I have not done as well as I would have hoped (3/3 in both tournaments) I was pleased with it's performance over all, notching wins against Grixis Shadow twice, Affinity, Elves, 8 whack, and Jeskai Control among others. But the deck's inconsistencies did prove to be an issue as I lost to R/W control deck, Eldrazi Tron, G/W Tron, Ponza, Merfolk, and a second match with Affinity.
As stated in my original post, one of the features that makes this deck so fun to play is that each game feels different. Sometimes you're playing a draw-go style tempo/control game, sometimes you'll shred their hand into oblivion with disruption. Occasionally, you're even on the beat down with fast monsters like TKS and Smasher. Unfortunately, there are times where things just don't coalesce the way you need them too. Sometimes things just go bad, and your Queller gets bolted after catching a blood moon on turn 3, by a hidden mana monkey's (Simian Spirit Guide) lightning bolt (that felt terrible btw). But I've learned some good lessons from these two tournaments.
1) I need to improve the consistency of the deck, an additional Serum Visions may help here. Perhaps a Cryptic Command could help here as well.
2) I need to address Tron decks somehow. Spell Queller is woefully bad against big mana Tron. I'll need to pack a few good anti-Tron cards in the board for that match up. Obviously, Ceremonious Rejection comes to mind, but if anyone else out there knows some good colorless hosers, ine esper colors, please let me know.
I'm happy with the way the deck is progressing. Beating Grixis Shadow both times I faced it felt good. And evening things up in the Affinity match up gave me hope too. Losing to Blood Moon and land destruction sucks, but sometimes there's just not much you can do about it. Going into the tournament, I believed my Tron match up was better than it was, I'll have to keep testing that one as we go forward.
As always, if you have any ideas or questions, please don't hesitate to speak up in the comments. Thanks to everyone who's come to check out the deck. I'll post any changes and continued tournament results as they come.
Dan
****Deck update 8/7/17
Main Deck
Out:
Thoughtseize
Spell Queller x1
In:
Serum Visions Total:4
Collective Brutality Total: 2
Rationale: In an attempt to shore up a more consistent and smoother game, I've gone to 4 serum visions. Preliminary results seem good. Although with cantrips like serum it's hard to tell. Dropping thoughtsieze altogether was not too hard. Collective Brutality is a great card right now, and it shores up some of our more stressful match ups like burn. Going down a Spell Queller is something I was hesitant to do at first, but after trying it out, it seems okay. I'm still seeing them when I want them generally.
Let's get into the sideboard which received a complete overhaul.
Here's the new board
Artifact
1 Pithing Needle
Enchantment
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
1 Detention Sphere
2 Condemn
3 Ceremonious Rejection
Sorcery
2 Lingering Souls
2 Timely Reinforcements
Most entries here should be pretty obvious. 3 Ceremonious Rejections are helping to shore up the Tron match up. Detention Sphere is there to deal with Ensnaring Bridge and other problem cards that need to be removed.
So far, so good.
The deck continues to surprise people with its resilience, particularly against decks which play low to the ground like affinity. The lack of Lightning Bolt in the format continues to be a boon; however, I have noticed it creeping up in lists of late. It's perfectly fine to see though, it's just something to be careful of. Mono white hatebears is another deck that has recently been trying- I don't see it with regularity in my meta, but will consider swapping out cards from the SB, for Flaying Tendrils if they continue to show prominence online.
I'll check back with some results regarding Opt. If you have any ideas regarding the current list, please let me know.
This is the deck as it currently stands.
Creature (18)
3 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Wasteland Strangler
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Spell Queller
2 Ulamog's Nullifier
2 Reality Smasher
Instant (11)
4 Path to Exile
3 Remand
3 Delay
1 Surgical Extraction
Land (23)
3 Polluted Delta
1 Watery Grave
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Adarkar Wastes
3 Eldrazi Temple
3 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Island
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Mystic Gate
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Godless Shrine
1 Scavenger Grounds
1 Underground River
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Serum Visions
2 Thoughtseize
1 Pithing Needle
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Detention Sphere
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
3 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Lingering Souls
Please take the time to vote at the top of the page. If you believe the deck has potential and have ideas regarding how to make the deck stronger, please help out and post your thoughts here. Help is always appreciated.
In general I'd be worried about my life total from lands in this deck, and Nullifier only aggravates the need for painful mana. Do you have data around how often you play it for value compared to how often you have to just throw it out EOT for beats?
I'd be inclined to suggest 2x Eldrazi Skyspawner there, to still give you value (but unconditional this time) with Displacer, and to make up somewhat for missing out on the unbelievably good Lingering Souls.
Seems like a super fun deck but I wonder if you might be spread a little too thin here.
In defense of Nullifier however, and perhaps we can weigh this consideration, it's a processor that can clean cards off of Spell Queller and remove Delayed threats. This is no small thing. Cards simply cannot sit on quellers or in suspend without a plan to take care of them permanently, and while Wasteland Strangler is great, Nullifier provides an additional insurance policy here. But, as you correctly said, there are times (usually in matches where I'm behind) that I'm casting it just to get a body on the field. I'm going to have to seriously crunch some numbers.
Thank you for taking the time to read and comment! I'll try and get some hard data up here as soon as possible.
Dan
*Hot damn, that's a good idea...
looks like you've got a spicey little deck yourself. I like what you've done with the build. It looks like you're good on exile effects, but if you start to run into problems, Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver looks like it'd be a fine addition to a build like this (maybe it can go in the board). You could probably go down one spell snare for it, if you wanted it in the main though. That is, if you're having issues with getting/keeping things in exile.
You're not running the soft lock combo in Eldrazi Displacer + Ulamog's Nullifier (Queller for me, but it's essentially the same idea) and exile effects which is sort of the crux of my particular build, but I can see where you made the choices you've made.
Your considerations are solid. You're right, you can spare a Delay. Although I'm not big on reciprocate myself, as I think you have more than enough in the way of removal (3 strangler and 4 paths is pretty solid and can take care of just about anything), something else in that slot couldn't hurt. If anything, I think you need to shore up some of your disruption effects, so my mind goes to something like Collective Brutality. Which is fine as a singleton, and can help out against a litany of match-ups.
What I saw that concerned me: I didn't personally have any luck with Tidehollow Sculler as he almost always got pushed, pathed, decayed, or bolted before I could process the card, making him ultimately useless. For me, I think your better off getting sure things into the exile bin and keeping them there, for this you'd be hard pressed to find something better than the following for your current build: [/card]Surgical Extraction/Extirpate, Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, or Relic of Progenitus.
I really like your instincts on the cantrips--making sure you hit what you want to hit is really a very solid way to go. And your processor count looks fine to me at 6, but if you want to swap in another strangler and out another Nullifier you may find yourself happier. In my year plus of playing the deck, I've often found that 4 stranglers is just the way to go. Personally, I think you need a stronger finisher than flurry of small to mid-sized creatures, but if you had bad luck with Smasher then don't force it. Might I suggest a trio of Thoughtknot Seers in place of your tidehollows? Yes, your lose a bit on speed, but your top end is waaaay better, and your exiled cards are exiled forever. You curve out a bit more nicely with, cantrips on T1, counters on T2, quellers on T3, and TKS on 4. It wouldn't be hard to retool your mana base to support them: a couple temples, some filterlands, a single waste and boom you got it. Or if you're uncomfortable with that, take advantage of Lingering Souls, it really is one of the best cards in the format right now.
Ultimately, gun to my head, if you I had to make changes to your list (which may not need changes mind you), I would drop the 4 Tidehollow Scullers and put in 3 Lingering Souls and an Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver. I'd also drop 1 Nullifier, and put in 1 more Strangler. This would free up your board for more consistency (i.e. adding Ceremonious Rejections--no, really you need 3). That's if you don't want to change your mana base at all. IF you're willing to tinker with the mana, then that's a different story. But I don't want your deck to look too much like mine.
Keep us posted, I'm excited to see what you're working with!
Dan
P.S. Disrupting Shoal huh....Interesting. \
P.P.S. My current build
Creature (16)
3 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Wasteland Strangler
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Spell Queller
1 Ulamog's Nullifier
2 Reality Smasher
Instant (16)
4 Path to Exile
4 Remand
3 Delay
1 Surgical Extraction
4 Opt
Land (23)
3 Polluted Delta
1 Watery Grave
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Adarkar Wastes
3 Eldrazi Temple
3 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Island
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Mystic Gate
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Godless Shrine
1 Scavenger Grounds
1 Underground River
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Collective Brutality
1 Pithing Needle
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Detention Sphere
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
3 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Lingering Souls