With all the delirium hype with people branching out to abzan, jund, sultai versions, has anyone tried to brew a gifts delirium build with traverse? We already run many one of creatures and it could augment the toolbox theme of the deck. Obviously, we wouldn't be grabbing iona or elesh with traverse but snaps, e wit, goyf, grim flayer, siege rhino, thrag, etc would make great targets. Constructing the deck may be tough if we have to throw in even more fluff into our deck to have 4+ types in the grave as soon as possible but I wanted to see if anyone attempted such feat yet since everyone seems to be brewing delirium builds and how such a deck lis might look like.
On a different note, I am still running the abzan gifts, alternating between hierarch and non hierarch build to see which one I like better. Grixis and uw control decks have increased in my meta but it is still very diverse (last week played against valakut, living end, and storm and this week grixis control, grixis death shadow and green stompy). I desperately wanted to churn out gifts turn 3 against combo last week with the help of the mana dorks but they were eating bolts and pushes all day this week. Top decking them also felt terrible while the opponents were looping tasigurs. Currently, I am leaning for the nobles to help against aggro and combo since it gives me more game against those matches where things are decided the first 3-4 turns (I also hate losing to aggro and combo because I don't get to play magic). My logic is that nobles aren't a huge setback against control and I can always SB them out against them and bring in relevant cards.
I am also currently testing out a pair of grim flayers to go along with nobles and removed eternal witness from my list. For those who have been testing flayers in an abzan list, how have they been? E wit seemed a bit slow and the only matches I miss him are grindy games. I wish I can run snaps but my list is tight and I don't want to stretch my mana so thin among 4 colors (I only run blue for gifts for those unfamiliar with my list). I really want to take advantage of witness and snaps but I always feel like they are too slow. Anyone else feel the same way?
As much as I love brewing w new cards, I do not think drake haven is the card for us, especially if we have to jam more lands that come in tapped in order to use it. It is an expensive enchantment that does nothing w the rest of our deck. I would replace it w anything else. Detention sphere is a great catch all and I think it's better currently now that decays are not running around as much since the printing of push. Also, maelstrom pulse is a great option as well but it seems like you run very light green (only decays mb and loam).
The bicycle lands are very poor for our deck that needs to play a land every turn. Definitely replace it w a man land if you want some utility, either tar pit or celestial. They are great for ending the game in a pinch and I would highly recommend them over gargoyle castle.
Hey, I'm looking into playing a Gift variant and I wanted to know a couple of things first.
Why only 1 Unburial Rites? Playing more than 1 copy allow for more gift into reanimation, drawing a second copy of Unburial after doing the combo allow for 2 more reanimation of the creature.Also variant that run Jace could loot Unburial for worth.
Which variant would be the most consistent between Thopter,4c and Esper?
Hey, I'm looking into playing a Gift variant and I wanted to know a couple of things first.
Why only 1 Unburial Rites? Playing more than 1 copy allow for more gift into reanimation, drawing a second copy of Unburial after doing the combo allow for 2 more reanimation of the creature.Also variant that run Jace could loot Unburial for worth.
Which variant would be the most consistent between Thopter,4c and Esper?
The rites combo is a one shot kill. This isn't commander where you want to keep winning.
In terms of consistency, esper usually has more cantrips and allows you to draw your gifts more consistently, but without the green for abrupt decay, it's a bit vulnerable to grave hate.
Esper is usually the most combo centric verison of all the gift varients.
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Hey guys just wondering if anyone is currently running a Goyf-less 4C Gifts deck and had a list I could look at? Looking for something as recent as possible
What's up dudes? I've been playing this list, I love this deck and have just finally gotten it together. Obvious inclusions are 4 Tarmogoyf to replace the 4 Greenwheel Liberator that I have now. I am of the opinion that 4C gifts is the strongest version of gifts as we don't straight up lose to graveyard hate like Esper, though Esper is strong in its own rights. I built my list around Drayton, Alpharius, and Funeral of God's lists, so shouts out those guys. In the playtesting I have done, I have really struggled with whether or not to include 4 Birds of Paradise or 4 Caryatid, or whether or not to run them at all. Birds ramping into a T2 Lili or Souls is fantastic, though I see the pro's of Caryatid. I chose not to include them at all so I can function as a traditional midrange deck that can still topdeck well. As others have mentioned before, I think this deck shines when you can sequence T1 Discard, T2 Beater, T3 Lili, T4 Gifts.
Feel free to critique, I will be bringing this list to FNM this week and will report when I can! Cheers.
Good catch, that island should probably be a forest, and now that you mention it, hallowed fountain does seem a bit clunky. I could probably replace that with an island. I know ideally you should run one of each basic, but to do that I would need to cut a fastland or a manland. I should probably drop a blooming marsh, but it does feel great to go turn one blooming marsh and take no damage.
It's a personal choice to avoid a 4th color. I like my more reliable mana base. 4c can ramp out gifts faster and has the loam crime package in addition to unburial. I tend to play a more controlling strategy with my build and grind my opponent out of the game.
Just looked at your list, looks mostly foiled! That's sweet dude. How have you been liking Ashiok in the sideboard? I have been running one but I'm always uncertain on when she should come in.
Looks like a solid list, ProtossPaul! Glad to be of help!
As others have said, manadorks are not a necessity in any versions but it can be nice in certain matchups to turbo out gifts. Otherwise, goyf and creatures can hold the fort until turn 4 gifts. I have decided as well to drop the dorks and put in more midrange threats after having another week of getting dorks bolted and pushed. If your meta is more aggro or combo, dorks are great. If the meta is more midrange or control, put in more cards that aren't terrible topdecks.
Definitely run a plains, forest, and swamp for your basics for paths and blood moons and the burn-matchup where every point of damage adds up. I would remove the island and shave one blooming marsh to make room for a forest and plains.
How has phyrexian arena been working out for you? Have you thought of replacing it with another proactive card, perhaps the new liliana or another beater?
Always interested in hearing results! Let us know!
I love the idea of this deck and am happy to accept that it will be a long process of upgrading to get it as good as it can be. Liliana and the more expensive fetches will definitely be tr first things to get
The core of the deck remains the same as an Abzan deck with a gifts combo finish except I moved the Life from the Loam combo to the SB. I added Grim Flayers and removed Eternal Witness because he was a tad slow and I rarely found myself grinding value out of him. I enjoyed having more 2 drop creatures to function as pressure and will stick to this list for now.
Grim flayer has been great for applying pressure and digging through the deck to find specific cards. Delirium is somewhat difficult to achieve early in the game but we aren't going all in on flayers (hence only 2 of them) and thus it is less relevant. He certainly shined in the Tron matchup where he singlehandedly won the game for me by digging through the top of my library for answers while applying pressure at the same time. If the opponent had one more turn, he would have played an ugin and wipe the board and swing the game in his favor. Tron is always a rough matchup but having low to the ground beaters have been helping. Gifts can also give flayers delirium and goyfs extra power in certain scenarios. Against merfolk this last week, the opponent had two fishes, a spreading seas on one of my lands, and at 10 life while I had two 2/3 goyfs (he previously popped a relic to get rid of both our graveyards) at 2 life. I knew he was going to kill me on the swing next turn so I attacked with both goyfs. Thinking he could take the damage, he decided to save his fishes and declare no blocks. Before damage, I gifts for a liliana and gearhulk to throw into the graveyard for 3 (!!!) extra types for 6 more dmg from the goyfs and end the game. A certain rogue tactic, but a nice trick to have up your sleeve.
I am still playing Cataclysmic Gearhulk as my 5 drop midrange/possible gifts target because it's a last resort catch-all creature that helps when you are behind. It has great applications against Eldrazi or Merfolk with multiple lords where Elesh Norn can't stabilize the field, against certain combo such as lantern and prison decks, or just for a 4/5 vigilance creature that can attack and block favorably with most of the field. Only time I miss my siege rhinos and thragtusk are burn matches (which I haven't seen in a while) or control (which isn't unfavorable and the creature swap would not swing the game in our favor) where the creatures provide extra value with their bodies.
I've been playing around between 5-6 discard spells in the form of IoK and TS (the 1 CB is here to stay because it is too amazing to not be in the main) and no matter how much I tweak my deck, I really really really want to have turn 1 discard. I would certainly love to make room for Lili v2 (she is amazing and I've certainly lost games against her shooting down my souls and pumping value) but the list is tight and I don't want to shave more discard when they are such powerful plays. Discard is the easiest card to start shaving because we run so many of them but it drastically reduces our early game plays and I would like to avoid it. I have thought of changing one LotV to Lili v2 but LotV is so much better in our deck. Maybe she can find a space in the sideboard, or the meta changes and I can swap gearhulk for Lili v2.
I still enjoy the gearhulk in my list because it is the only reliable way to pseudo-wrath the board with too much toughness without running 3 sweepers mainboard to gifts for which just doesn't feel so great wasting 3 slots. You've mentioned that it may be better in a non-creature based list but if I have more than 2 goyfs/flayers/ooze on the board, I wouldn't feel compelled to play gearhulk in the first place because I am in a good spot. Also, remember that gearhulk can count itself as a artifact so you can come out with 2 "creatures" after its ETB effect and there are rarely any case where their lone creatures can dwarf my two beefy creatures. It's a great get out of jail free card if Elesh is already in hand or Elesh cant kill their creatures. Gearhulk certainly is worthy enough to be considered when developing gift decks along with our suite of creatures such as Siege Rhino and Thragtusk.
1) not a big fan of fast lands. You really need the turn 4 mana for gifts. However you do have Mana dorks so I'm not sure
2) not a bit fan of sylvan at all. I would cut those for Jace. 4c gifts doesn't have the card draw to consistently grab turn 3 gifts into turn 4 Iona/ elesh either way
3) you need Iona in the main as well as grave Titan/ fatty against midrange decks etc
4) ashiok is okay, but you really need a strong alternative win con against fair decks that can win in its on. Batterskull/ elspeth are both solid choices
5) languish is significantly worse than damnation right now with all the eldrazi and death's shadow running around.
alot of lists don't run Goyfs. If you chose not to run gofyd (or liliana) you need to run another threat in your deck eg knight of the reliquary or more snapcaster mages and tasigurs. Or on the other hand, you need to go more combo centric with more control cards like mana leak. (Cut sylan, they're really bad)
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Iona is now in the MB, as well as a Thragtusk for midrange matchups. I understand the mana-base is dodge and that will be something I work towards over time (as well as Liliana's).
Thoughts? suggestions? Love having some experts around to bounce ideas off of.
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On a different note, I am still running the abzan gifts, alternating between hierarch and non hierarch build to see which one I like better. Grixis and uw control decks have increased in my meta but it is still very diverse (last week played against valakut, living end, and storm and this week grixis control, grixis death shadow and green stompy). I desperately wanted to churn out gifts turn 3 against combo last week with the help of the mana dorks but they were eating bolts and pushes all day this week. Top decking them also felt terrible while the opponents were looping tasigurs. Currently, I am leaning for the nobles to help against aggro and combo since it gives me more game against those matches where things are decided the first 3-4 turns (I also hate losing to aggro and combo because I don't get to play magic). My logic is that nobles aren't a huge setback against control and I can always SB them out against them and bring in relevant cards.
I am also currently testing out a pair of grim flayers to go along with nobles and removed eternal witness from my list. For those who have been testing flayers in an abzan list, how have they been? E wit seemed a bit slow and the only matches I miss him are grindy games. I wish I can run snaps but my list is tight and I don't want to stretch my mana so thin among 4 colors (I only run blue for gifts for those unfamiliar with my list). I really want to take advantage of witness and snaps but I always feel like they are too slow. Anyone else feel the same way?
Sorry for the long post and happy gifting!
As much as I love brewing w new cards, I do not think drake haven is the card for us, especially if we have to jam more lands that come in tapped in order to use it. It is an expensive enchantment that does nothing w the rest of our deck. I would replace it w anything else. Detention sphere is a great catch all and I think it's better currently now that decays are not running around as much since the printing of push. Also, maelstrom pulse is a great option as well but it seems like you run very light green (only decays mb and loam).
The bicycle lands are very poor for our deck that needs to play a land every turn. Definitely replace it w a man land if you want some utility, either tar pit or celestial. They are great for ending the game in a pinch and I would highly recommend them over gargoyle castle.
Why only 1 Unburial Rites? Playing more than 1 copy allow for more gift into reanimation, drawing a second copy of Unburial after doing the combo allow for 2 more reanimation of the creature.Also variant that run Jace could loot Unburial for worth.
Which variant would be the most consistent between Thopter,4c and Esper?
And yeah all this delirium stuff is cool but it makes a deck that's already weak to grave hate even weaker to it.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
The rites combo is a one shot kill. This isn't commander where you want to keep winning.
In terms of consistency, esper usually has more cantrips and allows you to draw your gifts more consistently, but without the green for abrupt decay, it's a bit vulnerable to grave hate.
Esper is usually the most combo centric verison of all the gift varients.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/a-rose-by-any-other-name-esper-gifts/
It normally goes 2-2 or better at my local FNM's.
4c Gifts Deck Stats: https://bit.ly/2XMPrlY
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/120495
Is not running green (just sticking to three colours) a personal choice or is 4C Gifts considered a weaker deck?
This is a Goyf-less (and Liliana-less cuz I'm poor) list I was considering
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/30-04-17-4c-gifts-control/
Is this kind of list still a thing? any advice?
Feel free to critique, I will be bringing this list to FNM this week and will report when I can! Cheers.
4 Blooming Marsh
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Breeding Pool
1 Temple Garden
1 Watery Grave
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Shambling Vents
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Ghost
1 Swamp
1 Island
Sorcery (13):
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Raven's Crime
1 Life from the Loam
1 Collective Brutality
3 Lingering Souls
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Unburial Rights
4 Greenwheel Liberator
1 Grim Flayer
1 Siege Rhino
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Enchantment (1):
1 Phyrexian Arena
Planeswalker (3):
3 Liliana of the Veil
Instant (10):
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile
2 Fatal Push
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1 Terastadon
2 Countersquall
1 Damnation
1 Languish
1 Golgari Charm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Stony Silence
1 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Timely Reinforcements
4c Gifts Deck Stats: https://bit.ly/2XMPrlY
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/120495
As others have said, manadorks are not a necessity in any versions but it can be nice in certain matchups to turbo out gifts. Otherwise, goyf and creatures can hold the fort until turn 4 gifts. I have decided as well to drop the dorks and put in more midrange threats after having another week of getting dorks bolted and pushed. If your meta is more aggro or combo, dorks are great. If the meta is more midrange or control, put in more cards that aren't terrible topdecks.
Definitely run a plains, forest, and swamp for your basics for paths and blood moons and the burn-matchup where every point of damage adds up. I would remove the island and shave one blooming marsh to make room for a forest and plains.
How has phyrexian arena been working out for you? Have you thought of replacing it with another proactive card, perhaps the new liliana or another beater?
Always interested in hearing results! Let us know!
4c Gifts Deck Stats: https://bit.ly/2XMPrlY
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/120495
I love the idea of this deck and am happy to accept that it will be a long process of upgrading to get it as good as it can be. Liliana and the more expensive fetches will definitely be tr first things to get
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Marsh Flats
1x Temple Garden
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Breeding Pool
1x Godless Shrine
1x Watery Grave
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Stirring Wildwood
1x Shambling Vents
2x Blooming Marsh
2x Grim Flayer
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Cataclysmic Gearhulk
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
3x Lingering Souls
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Unburial Rites
1x Collective Brutality
4x Gifts Ungiven
3x Path to Exile
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Fatal Push
3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Raven's Crime
1x Life from the Loam
1x Kitchen Finks
2x Stony Silence
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Extirpate
1x Lost Legacy
1x Collected Brutality
1x Terastodon
1x Damnation
2x Fulminator Mage
1x Blessed Alliance
1x Celestial Purge
The core of the deck remains the same as an Abzan deck with a gifts combo finish except I moved the Life from the Loam combo to the SB. I added Grim Flayers and removed Eternal Witness because he was a tad slow and I rarely found myself grinding value out of him. I enjoyed having more 2 drop creatures to function as pressure and will stick to this list for now.
Grim flayer has been great for applying pressure and digging through the deck to find specific cards. Delirium is somewhat difficult to achieve early in the game but we aren't going all in on flayers (hence only 2 of them) and thus it is less relevant. He certainly shined in the Tron matchup where he singlehandedly won the game for me by digging through the top of my library for answers while applying pressure at the same time. If the opponent had one more turn, he would have played an ugin and wipe the board and swing the game in his favor. Tron is always a rough matchup but having low to the ground beaters have been helping. Gifts can also give flayers delirium and goyfs extra power in certain scenarios. Against merfolk this last week, the opponent had two fishes, a spreading seas on one of my lands, and at 10 life while I had two 2/3 goyfs (he previously popped a relic to get rid of both our graveyards) at 2 life. I knew he was going to kill me on the swing next turn so I attacked with both goyfs. Thinking he could take the damage, he decided to save his fishes and declare no blocks. Before damage, I gifts for a liliana and gearhulk to throw into the graveyard for 3 (!!!) extra types for 6 more dmg from the goyfs and end the game. A certain rogue tactic, but a nice trick to have up your sleeve.
I am still playing Cataclysmic Gearhulk as my 5 drop midrange/possible gifts target because it's a last resort catch-all creature that helps when you are behind. It has great applications against Eldrazi or Merfolk with multiple lords where Elesh Norn can't stabilize the field, against certain combo such as lantern and prison decks, or just for a 4/5 vigilance creature that can attack and block favorably with most of the field. Only time I miss my siege rhinos and thragtusk are burn matches (which I haven't seen in a while) or control (which isn't unfavorable and the creature swap would not swing the game in our favor) where the creatures provide extra value with their bodies.
I've been playing around between 5-6 discard spells in the form of IoK and TS (the 1 CB is here to stay because it is too amazing to not be in the main) and no matter how much I tweak my deck, I really really really want to have turn 1 discard. I would certainly love to make room for Lili v2 (she is amazing and I've certainly lost games against her shooting down my souls and pumping value) but the list is tight and I don't want to shave more discard when they are such powerful plays. Discard is the easiest card to start shaving because we run so many of them but it drastically reduces our early game plays and I would like to avoid it. I have thought of changing one LotV to Lili v2 but LotV is so much better in our deck. Maybe she can find a space in the sideboard, or the meta changes and I can swap gearhulk for Lili v2.
I still enjoy the gearhulk in my list because it is the only reliable way to pseudo-wrath the board with too much toughness without running 3 sweepers mainboard to gifts for which just doesn't feel so great wasting 3 slots. You've mentioned that it may be better in a non-creature based list but if I have more than 2 goyfs/flayers/ooze on the board, I wouldn't feel compelled to play gearhulk in the first place because I am in a good spot. Also, remember that gearhulk can count itself as a artifact so you can come out with 2 "creatures" after its ETB effect and there are rarely any case where their lone creatures can dwarf my two beefy creatures. It's a great get out of jail free card if Elesh is already in hand or Elesh cant kill their creatures. Gearhulk certainly is worthy enough to be considered when developing gift decks along with our suite of creatures such as Siege Rhino and Thragtusk.
I'm a bit late but here we go:
1) not a big fan of fast lands. You really need the turn 4 mana for gifts. However you do have Mana dorks so I'm not sure
2) not a bit fan of sylvan at all. I would cut those for Jace. 4c gifts doesn't have the card draw to consistently grab turn 3 gifts into turn 4 Iona/ elesh either way
3) you need Iona in the main as well as grave Titan/ fatty against midrange decks etc
4) ashiok is okay, but you really need a strong alternative win con against fair decks that can win in its on. Batterskull/ elspeth are both solid choices
5) languish is significantly worse than damnation right now with all the eldrazi and death's shadow running around.
alot of lists don't run Goyfs. If you chose not to run gofyd (or liliana) you need to run another threat in your deck eg knight of the reliquary or more snapcaster mages and tasigurs. Or on the other hand, you need to go more combo centric with more control cards like mana leak. (Cut sylan, they're really bad)
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/30-04-17-4c-gifts-control/
Iona is now in the MB, as well as a Thragtusk for midrange matchups. I understand the mana-base is dodge and that will be something I work towards over time (as well as Liliana's).
Thoughts? suggestions? Love having some experts around to bounce ideas off of.