I'd suggest negate or dispel in the chalice sideboard slot, I was just about to buy them then they trippled in price :/. I'd probably buy snapcaster mages before i buy chalice at this point. If you don't have chalice I'd also mind have to keep the Talismins for artifact count for thirst and you need to be faster if you can't be as controlling.
World breaker ah, I think I have been up against out of date Tron lists (on paper people don't update decks so fast).
How bad does the tron match up and how high it's popularity get before we start playing trickbind? or the double blue of disallow or summary dismissal.
The solemn (Rather than Knot-seerer) seems important to get the double blue for things like gearhulk and snapcaster.
I am thinking about the gearhulk, but that double blue and most of my instants are X spells :/.
I don't know what you mean with Talisman, I don't like Talisman, it's bad
i apologize if i got you befuddled..allow me to reiterate: how good are the solemn simulacrums when you're not running some copies of talisman of dominance? i'm under the impression(i could be wrong) that to maximize them, is best to run mana rocks to get that curve expected from them? just like the example that VirginityTheGathering has stated..i've heard some players claim that they're(sad robots) not worth running without the talismans..thanks in advance and again sorry for the confusion..
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"I am the purifier, the light that clears all shadows."
—Seal inscription
(sigh!)guys, just a general question..what do you think of running solemn simulacrum in a list without talismans? is it worthwhile running them without the mana rocks? because(again) i've heard many say they won't run it in a talisman-less build, but i just want to hear some arguments about running them in a build without the mana rocks..
not confused, just curious..
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"I am the purifier, the light that clears all shadows."
—Seal inscription
hope that helps..try those suggestions out and let us know what you thought of them..
Btw sorry for my english...
Thanks in advance
chalices, i would put them in the category of "cards-that-are-good-to-have-but-are-not-really-mandatory-to-be-optimal" in blue tron..it'd be up there with the snapcasters..run em' if you have em'..if you don't, its fine..
chalices, i would put them in the category of "cards-that-are-good-to-have-but-are-not-really-mandatory-to-be-optimal" in blue tron..it'd be up there with the snapcasters..run em' if you have em'..if you don't, its fine..
Unless your meta is extremely degenerate you always want to play chalice.
Boys, Relax. Allow me to provide my humble opinion on this matter about solemns, talismans, squelch, surgical extraction, etc.
Throughout the 20 plus years of me slinging spells I have been called countless names, given many of looks, I've been asked a lot of questions about decisions and card choices, and told about "better cards" to run instead.
I've withstood the test of time, and I've always been a person who is ahead of the curve, see the entire picture as a whole, both ends of the spectrum if you will. I always try to find the middle ground.
But to sit hear and state that talisman is not playable is absurd. I love my pierakor. I really do. He's a good dude. But to be honest, he has always refused to run 23 lands, and or talismans. This is his preference and I have no problem with that. I prefer to run talisman because it ups my blue source count game 1. It provides consistency, and acceleration. Countless games I've had tron with no blue land in hand. But with a talisman game 1, natural tron and talisman becomes a real game changer. Talisman smooths things out and gives accel game 1 when you do not know what you are up against. I'm on board if you don't want to run talisman, I'm on board if you do. But we realize there is no right or wrong / definite answer. It's how you play a magical match, the sequence and mindset each player has in their mind and how you play every game single game of magic. Talismans open doors into greater possibilities and a more explosive start to a game than not having them at all.
I was also told solemn is strictly inferior to Thought Knot Seer. I've stood by my phrase "I think Knot my friends". It appears pierakor has jumped ship on his original statements. =)
I was also told by many of players that surgical extraction does nothing. There are even interweb articles written about how the card doesn't do anything productive. Well, look at how that has changed... the card runs dredge out of the room, thwarts the long game of opposing tron decks, wins games v reanimator. Outgrinds the control decks. Is it something you can maindeck? NO. But it serves a purpose.
Squelch!!!!??? Who runs that card? And what does that card even hit? ... 3 years I was insane for running that card. But I stood my ego and reasoning playing it. I'd say it has definitely made people think twice about that fetchland.
The point of this awesome post is just to clarify that there is no definitive answer or resolution when it comes to this game. But Talismans are playable and provide more lines of play throughout a game. And most importantly it makes my sideboarding gig a hell of a lot easier. Talisman + solemn is not the worst. t3 tron w/ solemn is pretty solid as well. If you are asking me to pick a winner for Solemn v TKS in a bare knuckled brawl w/ no rules.. I'm taking solemn all day because he has no problems with finding answers to many of situations. He seems a lot more intelligent than Think kNot seer.
I never said solemn is strictly inferior to TKS. Both are roughly the same powerlevel, but do completely different things and are therefore suitable to different matchups and meta. TKS is best vs decks which don't run effective removal. Solemn is best vs abzan/jund/grixis.
Talisman vs Lands was discussed many times. When you say it provides more sources game1 that's just BS. Talisman are replaced with more Islands if you don't run them. Hands with 1 land 1 talisman are mulligans. Imagine that talisman is an Island... probably a keep. Postboard Talisman is awkward against many decks, especially white. Tapping out on turn 2 for a talisman is mediocre. Keeping up Remand or Condescend is basically always better.
Yes you said that Pierakor, I just don't have the Twitch chat logs handy to prove it. "In any situation where Solemn is good, TKS is better." (Paraphrased from frail human memory.) Whether you were trolling or not, I guess we'll never know for sure. I agree with your assessment now.
Linking Solemn together with Talisman is logically VERY silly to me since we run at most 1-2 of the former and 2-3 of the latter. T3 Solemn doesn't come up that often, though I grant it does feel good when it happens. The thing about Talisman is it's a convenience in the games you have it, not really that different from the Gemstone Caverns you guys run now. Certainly it's not something the deck relies upon.
Solemn is much more card advantage than it is acceleration, so by no means do we need to have it on T3 as opposed to T4 or later. I think he shines best in the late game grind when topdecks are valuable and his chump block digs us towards gas, multiple times if you have Academy.
I have also said on stream that Remand is great vs Pact of Negation. Half the stuff I say on stream is meant to be funny or tease someone. The other half is hyperbole on steroids.
Since the discussion of TKS vs Solemn started in this thread I have said that on powerlevel TKS is comparable to solemn but their effect is not comparable. Where Solemn "boosts" us, TKS actively hinders our opponent which is generally a better strategy. For a long time I did think there was no reason to play Solemn over TKS. Why? Because there genuinely wasn't any reason at that time, given the current meta. After seeing a different meta I realized that Solemn was doing more for us and I changed to Solemn. If you saw my stream just a few days ago you might've seen me argue about that change and how it might be time to re-evaluate that.
i love how often this forum degenerates into TKS vs Solemn. its hilarious.
solemn, makes sense. 100%... i just win more with TKS. so often I might find myself low on lands (4 or 5) jam a TKS and protect it like im playing a delver deck. playstyle ladies and gents. solemn works better with straight control and card advantage. I side out TKS vs jund/junk/grixis. if you play solemn, you leave it in.
inversely. i think talisman is the worst card in the 75, but it makes sense! ... most lists that post results do use a couple. they almost always get sided out, and makes sb easy for sure. increases game 1 efficiency even if they are low impact. currently i am forcing myself to use two main.
but YO, check out a new convo for that 1-2 card 4 drop slot... walking ballista ...maindeck pinging creature removal. scalable, can be pitched to thirst. makes sense as an option as well...
leyline of sanctity might be g0od at the moment. DEATH'S shadow i'd call our worst matchup now. free wins in some other matches. who knowsss.
I like walking Ballista a lot, I think it's flexibility in CMC and the ability to build and provide colourless removal and reach fantastic.
The fact that it give us a body-on-removal-on-manasink to my inexperienced mind is just fantastic, and it's single handedly change the dynamic of the Merfolk match up.
Due to card scarcity this is the list (unless I find some upgrades) I'll be running tomorrow, not sure of what meta will look like, probably Skred, Jund, Non-U Tron, Affinity and Storm, maybe some Jeskai or UW control.
I've considered adding 1x Collar to the list just because it's disgusting with ballista, but can't really justify it at the same time as we have other real sweepers and it's more of a 'cute' interaction when we have Batterskill for lifegain main already.
Shifted my Titan to board, people really played around him the other week and not seeing enough island on the other side of the board most games - also lost of 2pain 2 dual 2 fast set-ups and the like. Have gone up to 24 land, 30 mana things counting Map and Talismans. With this many ballistas in the list, having turn 4 on turn 3 is what we want to be able to do in a vacuum.
On TKS, I originally ran two in the list but three things made me stop playing him, He dies to Galblast - believe it or not, top decked sure, but this is really really bad. You're unable to target yourself - sounds dumb, but in a deck that can and may cast Condensed for 0 just to dig not being able to ensure a self replacement effect really bugged me. And finally, I'd rather draw Solemn and not feel bad when it dies. (Also Smasher is just a better Creature, tks is a spell.)
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how good are the sad robots without talismans? i've heard many say they won't run it in a talisman-less list..
—Seal inscription
Is there any replacement for chalice of the void for a player on a really tight budget
I cannot spend that amount of money for a single card
I already have everything else to build this deck except chalice....
Is is better to just add more counterspell instead to try to find a non-optimal replacement card for chalice?
Btw sorry for my english...
Thanks in advance
I don't know what you mean with Talisman, I don't like Talisman, it's bad
Youtube Channel
My stream:
www.twitch.tv/pierakor
My Disco:
https://discord.gg/gTt6xHd
Turn 2 Talisman -> Turn 3 Solemn
World breaker ah, I think I have been up against out of date Tron lists (on paper people don't update decks so fast).
How bad does the tron match up and how high it's popularity get before we start playing trickbind? or the double blue of disallow or summary dismissal.
The solemn (Rather than Knot-seerer) seems important to get the double blue for things like gearhulk and snapcaster.
I am thinking about the gearhulk, but that double blue and most of my instants are X spells :/.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
i apologize if i got you befuddled..allow me to reiterate: how good are the solemn simulacrums when you're not running some copies of talisman of dominance? i'm under the impression(i could be wrong) that to maximize them, is best to run mana rocks to get that curve expected from them? just like the example that VirginityTheGathering has stated..i've heard some players claim that they're(sad robots) not worth running without the talismans..thanks in advance and again sorry for the confusion..
—Seal inscription
http://magicgatheringstrat.com/2015/09/mono-u-tron-faq/#TalismanVsLands
Youtube Channel
My stream:
www.twitch.tv/pierakor
My Disco:
https://discord.gg/gTt6xHd
not really confused pierakor, just wanting to hear your thoughts..anyway.......
—Seal inscription
not confused, just curious..
—Seal inscription
chalices, i would put them in the category of "cards-that-are-good-to-have-but-are-not-really-mandatory-to-be-optimal" in blue tron..it'd be up there with the snapcasters..run em' if you have em'..if you don't, its fine..
some cards that i'd put in lieu of those slots for the chalices are: dismembers, special concoctions, anticipates, spellskites, squelches.......
for what its worth, shoktroopa actually dislikes the chalices in the main and often relegates them to the the board..
—Seal inscription
Unless your meta is extremely degenerate you always want to play chalice.
Youtube Channel
My stream:
www.twitch.tv/pierakor
My Disco:
https://discord.gg/gTt6xHd
—Seal inscription
Throughout the 20 plus years of me slinging spells I have been called countless names, given many of looks, I've been asked a lot of questions about decisions and card choices, and told about "better cards" to run instead.
I've withstood the test of time, and I've always been a person who is ahead of the curve, see the entire picture as a whole, both ends of the spectrum if you will. I always try to find the middle ground.
But to sit hear and state that talisman is not playable is absurd. I love my pierakor. I really do. He's a good dude. But to be honest, he has always refused to run 23 lands, and or talismans. This is his preference and I have no problem with that. I prefer to run talisman because it ups my blue source count game 1. It provides consistency, and acceleration. Countless games I've had tron with no blue land in hand. But with a talisman game 1, natural tron and talisman becomes a real game changer. Talisman smooths things out and gives accel game 1 when you do not know what you are up against. I'm on board if you don't want to run talisman, I'm on board if you do. But we realize there is no right or wrong / definite answer. It's how you play a magical match, the sequence and mindset each player has in their mind and how you play every game single game of magic. Talismans open doors into greater possibilities and a more explosive start to a game than not having them at all.
I was also told solemn is strictly inferior to Thought Knot Seer. I've stood by my phrase "I think Knot my friends". It appears pierakor has jumped ship on his original statements. =)
I was also told by many of players that surgical extraction does nothing. There are even interweb articles written about how the card doesn't do anything productive. Well, look at how that has changed... the card runs dredge out of the room, thwarts the long game of opposing tron decks, wins games v reanimator. Outgrinds the control decks. Is it something you can maindeck? NO. But it serves a purpose.
Squelch!!!!??? Who runs that card? And what does that card even hit? ... 3 years I was insane for running that card. But I stood my ego and reasoning playing it. I'd say it has definitely made people think twice about that fetchland.
The point of this awesome post is just to clarify that there is no definitive answer or resolution when it comes to this game. But Talismans are playable and provide more lines of play throughout a game. And most importantly it makes my sideboarding gig a hell of a lot easier. Talisman + solemn is not the worst. t3 tron w/ solemn is pretty solid as well. If you are asking me to pick a winner for Solemn v TKS in a bare knuckled brawl w/ no rules.. I'm taking solemn all day because he has no problems with finding answers to many of situations. He seems a lot more intelligent than Think kNot seer.
Talisman vs Lands was discussed many times. When you say it provides more sources game1 that's just BS. Talisman are replaced with more Islands if you don't run them. Hands with 1 land 1 talisman are mulligans. Imagine that talisman is an Island... probably a keep. Postboard Talisman is awkward against many decks, especially white. Tapping out on turn 2 for a talisman is mediocre. Keeping up Remand or Condescend is basically always better.
Youtube Channel
My stream:
www.twitch.tv/pierakor
My Disco:
https://discord.gg/gTt6xHd
Linking Solemn together with Talisman is logically VERY silly to me since we run at most 1-2 of the former and 2-3 of the latter. T3 Solemn doesn't come up that often, though I grant it does feel good when it happens. The thing about Talisman is it's a convenience in the games you have it, not really that different from the Gemstone Caverns you guys run now. Certainly it's not something the deck relies upon.
Solemn is much more card advantage than it is acceleration, so by no means do we need to have it on T3 as opposed to T4 or later. I think he shines best in the late game grind when topdecks are valuable and his chump block digs us towards gas, multiple times if you have Academy.
(I'm GraveyardShenanigans on Twitch)
Since the discussion of TKS vs Solemn started in this thread I have said that on powerlevel TKS is comparable to solemn but their effect is not comparable. Where Solemn "boosts" us, TKS actively hinders our opponent which is generally a better strategy. For a long time I did think there was no reason to play Solemn over TKS. Why? Because there genuinely wasn't any reason at that time, given the current meta. After seeing a different meta I realized that Solemn was doing more for us and I changed to Solemn. If you saw my stream just a few days ago you might've seen me argue about that change and how it might be time to re-evaluate that.
Youtube Channel
My stream:
www.twitch.tv/pierakor
My Disco:
https://discord.gg/gTt6xHd
what does your current list look like?
—Seal inscription
also I swapped out my karns for the normal runs of creatures (threats) 1 platinum angel 1 sundering titan 2 wurmcoil engine 1 mindslaver 2 emrakul, the promised end 2 treasure mage 1ugin, the spirit dragon
then tested out planar bridge. bridge performed really well tonight. Feels like the new eye of ugin when landed. 3 times tonight i pulled out end of turn ugin, the spirit dragon for my wincon or game saving move. If i gotta fetch more than 1 card with bridge to end the game, then I typically fetched emrakul, the promised end. the catch though is I wish one of my 2 emrakul's was emrakul, the aeons torn, the annilator would contribute a lot more to ending the game when "bridged" into the field.
solemn, makes sense. 100%... i just win more with TKS. so often I might find myself low on lands (4 or 5) jam a TKS and protect it like im playing a delver deck. playstyle ladies and gents. solemn works better with straight control and card advantage. I side out TKS vs jund/junk/grixis. if you play solemn, you leave it in.
inversely. i think talisman is the worst card in the 75, but it makes sense! ... most lists that post results do use a couple. they almost always get sided out, and makes sb easy for sure. increases game 1 efficiency even if they are low impact. currently i am forcing myself to use two main.
but YO, check out a new convo for that 1-2 card 4 drop slot... walking ballista ...maindeck pinging creature removal. scalable, can be pitched to thirst. makes sense as an option as well...
leyline of sanctity might be g0od at the moment. DEATH'S shadow i'd call our worst matchup now. free wins in some other matches. who knowsss.
The fact that it give us a body-on-removal-on-manasink to my inexperienced mind is just fantastic, and it's single handedly change the dynamic of the Merfolk match up.
Due to card scarcity this is the list (unless I find some upgrades) I'll be running tomorrow, not sure of what meta will look like, probably Skred, Jund, Non-U Tron, Affinity and Storm, maybe some Jeskai or UW control.
1x Academy Ruins
8x Island
2x Gemstone Cavern
1x Tectonic Edge
4x Urza's Mine
4x Urza's Power Plant
4x Urza's Tower
4x Expedition Map
2x Talisman of Dominance
4x Thirst for Knowledge
1x Spell Burst
3x Condescend
1x Remand
1x Repeal
1x Manaleak
1x Fabricate
1x Snapcaster Mage
2x Mindslaver
1x Kozilek the Great Distortion
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2x Oblivion Stone
1x Cyclonic Rift
1x Batterskull
1x Solemn Simulacrum
2x Reality Smasher
3x Walking Ballista
1x Treasure Mage
1x Trinket Mage
2x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Ratchet Bomb
3x Dismember
1x Hurkyl's Recall
2x Pithing Needle
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Echoing Truth
1x Sundering Titan
I've considered adding 1x Collar to the list just because it's disgusting with ballista, but can't really justify it at the same time as we have other real sweepers and it's more of a 'cute' interaction when we have Batterskill for lifegain main already.
Shifted my Titan to board, people really played around him the other week and not seeing enough island on the other side of the board most games - also lost of 2pain 2 dual 2 fast set-ups and the like. Have gone up to 24 land, 30 mana things counting Map and Talismans. With this many ballistas in the list, having turn 4 on turn 3 is what we want to be able to do in a vacuum.
On TKS, I originally ran two in the list but three things made me stop playing him, He dies to Galblast - believe it or not, top decked sure, but this is really really bad. You're unable to target yourself - sounds dumb, but in a deck that can and may cast Condensed for 0 just to dig not being able to ensure a self replacement effect really bugged me. And finally, I'd rather draw Solemn and not feel bad when it dies. (Also Smasher is just a better Creature, tks is a spell.)