I think Mind Funeral is on par with Breaking/Entering and we should pick one based on our curve Dark Betrayal is for grixis delver and death shadow as I was having problems with them
Some notes: Hedron Crab and Jace's Phantasm can go in the sideboard. Mind Funeral is a great answer to Chalice of the Void. Jace's Archivist is too slow, and you do not want to give your opponent a chance to draw into anything. Memory Erosion would be a better card. If you just want to flat out make them repeatedly mill, Chronic Flooding does the trick, potentially puts them off their mana and is harder to remove.
Not sure why Death's Shadow causes problems - they run 3 creatures, one of which tends to be a 1 or 2 of. Extractirpate Death's Shadow, and the deck falls apart.
Not sure why Death's Shadow causes problems - they run 3 creatures, one of which tends to be a 1 or 2 of. Extractirpate Death's Shadow, and the deck falls apart.
Maybe Im playing wrong but I dont use Surgical in these matchups. I'm on the train that Surgical is the most overboarded card. And they use 5, not 3 creatures (Snapcaster, Street Wraith, DS, Angler, Tasigur. Replace Street Wraith for Delver). The biggest pain are delve creatures, they are strong and we lower their cost.
A new primer needs to cover Esper and UG/BUG mill as well.
The major problem with a primer is that everyone has different preferences. For example, I'm very big on the mill/extract plan to destroy their ability to achieve their goals. Others want the extraction in the sideboard. I'm also a big fan of Ensnaring Bridge. I don't like Fraying Sanity, others think it's the missing piece we've longed for to make Mill tier 2. So, if I wrote a primer, these biases would become apparent. I would expect biases from others as well.
The best primer may well be a team effort, wiki-style. Having someone organize a new primer and give credit to each person for writing a section may be best. Mining this thread for the best info may also work. I really do not want to see 3 different mill primers written for UB, BUG/UB and Esper. The card base is not really that diverse.
Chalice of the Void - maybe the most expensive card in magic?
I expect it will be reprinted in one of the THREE masters sets releasing in the next year.
How does your mill deck handle Chalice on 1 and 2?
Set Adrift.
I'm putting together an Esper list to include Fraying Sanity and move away from my creatureless UB list, kind of the opposite of Quartz for now, haha. Gives us Disenchant and Path for the bad matchups. I'm torn between Breaking//Entering and Mind Funeral though - I think Quartz is right that we need to choose it based on curve, and being able to T4 double mill spell is pretty important after a Sanity I think.
UG and BUG have put up zero results so far aside from in your head, Daeyel. Give us some match reports! I think it's a lot more fragile than you'd expect. If we were to include that in a primer, should we also include one with a Duskmantle/Mindcrank package? I think neither are relevant here.
Yeah, UB is hard, I've suffered enough leylines and blood moons to try back Esper.
I've also put together a UB creature "heavy" list with crabs, manic scribes and some baby Jaces, with Fraying Sanity and Orbs. This was since orbs and scribes are untargeted mill, and Jace looting with more creatures plus enchantment and artifacts enables delirium faster. Started out with great results, but then lost 4 games in a row and put it on hold.
Also tried laboratory maniac and managed to wina game against lantern control with a Shelldock isle'd one in my upkeep before decking myself. Felt awesome, but it probably is a poor plan
Esper is the thing right now, we need something against robots / enchantments or Grave (I don't think ravenous trap is enough most of the times)
Got 2 snapcaster mage and was the best thing i did to my deck.. 2 or 3 is the right choice i guess.
It's crazy how resourceful he can be, with 4 manas draw 6 cards and chump block and a lot of other shenanigans. Make the automill from mesmeric orb get some value.. the only problem is when Rest in Peace is played, but it's only come in against few matches.
If you can afford or give them a try , they will not waste yours expectations.
ps: If i got time from work, i will play the GP São Paulo with mill - if not, i will report about the side events in the near future.
Esper is the thing right now, we need something against robots / enchantments or Grave (I don't think ravenous trap is enough most of the times)
Got 2 snapcaster mage and was the best thing i did to my deck.. 2 or 3 is the right choice i guess.
It's crazy how resourceful he can be, with 4 manas draw 6 cards and chump block and a lot of other shenanigans. Make the automill from mesmeric orb get some value.. the only problem is when Rest in Peace is played, but it's only come in against few matches.
If you can afford or give them a try , they will not waste yours expectations.
ps: If i got time from work, i will play the GP São Paulo with mill - if not, i will report about the side events in the near future.
I actually just took my snapcasters out of Esper in favour of lowering the curve - I replaced him with Breaking//Entering to increase mill threat density at the same time. He is pretty awesome if you're planning to get to 4 mana though, he's so versatile.
What do you guys think is the optimal number of lands? I think 21 or 22 is the right number, I'm on 21 with my list now.
Ah, I just went down to 21 lands instead of 22, I haven't boarded in Damnation since I did that. So possibly a problem there. I felt I was getting a little too flooded with 21.
And yea, instant speed is important to act against lots of things, but the real reason is I don't have any fragmentize. Either is good! Pretty limited options for white mana in my list since it's just a splash. I feel like my land is all over the place (so many one-ofs), which is one advantage of UB that you can run more utility lands.
@ KeithsGenome : Thanks for the thoughts, appreciated
@ all : I see from the different builds that the MD seems now quite standardized with fraying. Core cards would be
4 Archive trap
4 Glimpse
4 Vision
4 Crab
3 Push
3 Fraying
2/3 Crypt
2/3 Surgical
Mix of Orb/Mind funeral/Breaking as additional mill
Esper would add path to the core, and a more painful manabase
The sideboard is therefore the main reason for going esper. I personally agree to Esper as leyline of sanctity is our worst enemy. Access to cheap and reliable anti enchantment, i.e fragmentize / disenchant, is a strong way to handle it. And as pesky artifacts are a norm in modern (affi, lantern) I see it sufficiently versatile as well to warrant a chunky size of the sideboard (5 cards). I am still however interested with UB way to handle it, as the painful mana base remains a worry
My main issue however is how to side, what to bring in is mostly straightforward but what to remove is much less. It is not helped either by the fact that most players seem to have very different approach to the matter. Could you guys provide some added clarity about your choice of side (reason for the card to be in) and what to remove from the main to bring it into the pack?
Magically
J.
I still think there's feasibility for a creatureless list with no Crabs, but Snapcasters. Leaving them with dead removal in hand is a decent move in my experience. However, I agree with the rest of the list and proportions!
For me as far as taking cards out, if I can't see something obvious (ie: Crypt Incursion vs Infect), I look at the pace I need to play at. For example, Mesmeric Orb vs Burn is way too slow, so it will usually get boarded out. Archive Trap I would board out if it was a deck that could play around it (Affinity, Skred).
Coming from a creatureless list back to using Crabs, it makes me wonder if it's worth it to have the Crabs in the sideboard to bring in game 2 after they side out all their removal. If a Crab can stick around it can easily be the most effective miller in the deck, and keeping them in the board game 1 could help them survive. Anyone try this before?
Morphing the gameplan is always a tempting plan, but I think it's not a good idea.
Milling ourselves and playing Laboratory Maniac is the weirdest I pulled off playing UB against leylines, if someone could point a good way of putting Lab Maniac in play from the graveyard, preferably instant speed, it might not be a bad choice. You can Fraying Sanity yourself, and the only "opponent" specific mill I play is archive trap, which could leave its place for 2 Lab Maniacs and some more protection.
I'd really like to stay UB, since we have a chance against Blood Mooon, but Push is a lot worse then Path, and we get less ways to trap them. Also, no path means we need some alternative way to deal with a resolved Gideon. Echoing truth is the most versatile, but also not a very good answer to these issues. Set Adrift is probably number 2.
I started testing a playset of Remand yesterday. The cantrips are sooo good in our deck. I never looked back after playing Thought Scour, and Remand in the 2 matches I played has been decent as well. It gives a lot of flexibility, and frequently gives us that extra dig and time to finish them. I think they will win a place in the deck.
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy has been underwhelming and I've stopped testing him. With such a low creature count, they always have the removal for him, and even if he flips, I'm not able to protect him properly.
Ensnaring Bridge is pretty good. There have been a lot of times I wished I had Ghostly Prison instead, but it's sort of Surgical vs Extirpate I guess. We just have to pick the one that works most times and don't look back, lol.
Sideboard usually means:
IN:
Disenchants/Fragmentize vs anything that can bring in Blood Moon or Leylines or Chalice, or plays a lot of artifacts
Crypt Incursions vs creature heavy decks (I put all 3 in the sideboard and maindecked Bridges)
Extract effects vs combo or anything that relies on some key cards. Don't hold these ones forever, the info on their hand and deck you get is worth playing them. Snapcasters/Eternal Witnesses are great targets since they shut down a lot of possible plays. I like Extirpate a lot more than Surgical, but that's personal taste. Split second is just amazing.
Ravenous Traps or whatever graveyard hate you pack against decks that use the graveyard, since we favor them heavily.
OUT:
Some Archive traps against decks that don't naturally search their libraries (heavy fetch or some other card), specially if I played at least 1 in g1.
Removal if they don't play creatures (duh)
Orbs and Fraying Sanity against fast, wide decks (to empty the hand faster for Bridge and make room for Crypt Incursion)
Some Visions of Beyond if they have a lot of graveyard hate.
I'm still torn about the crabs. They're so good early (specially if you get 2!).... But they just enable a lot of cards in our opponents decks (think how many playsets of Path or Push are in Modern decks, plus Dismembers, Wraths, Damnations, Verdicts, etc etc).
I'll keep testing creatureless playing either Inquisition or Remand in their place and let you guys know how it goes.
Crabs are not a bad include for G3. In fact, they can make you nigh unbeatable.
After G1, you can start a comment while sideboarding. They may initiate asking where all your creatures are. Or you can comment on all their removal. Tell 'em you don't run any critters if they ask. Watch their deck in G2. If they boarded out their removal, you are going to absolutely nail them to the wall in G3 with the Crabs. It's definitely worth mulliganing for. You have to play the long game and set them up a little.
The risk here is that the proper sideboard against Mill is often to throw the sideboard into the deck - 75 is harder to mill than 60, even if their deck is more inconsistent.
Remand has seen better days. I don't care for them, it was a Twin specialty, since Twin left their mana open due to flash. 4 is awfully expensive, when 1 or 2 will do with Dispel or Negate. Creatures are not a worry, that's what Ensnaring Bridge is for.
Experimentation is good. Edison had to find 10K ways to not light a bulb. The answer is very close. It may even be a left field answer like Spy Network (not Modern legal) or See Beyond or even Index. Something that sets up our draws. Halimar Depths, anyone?
SaffronOlive made an Against the odds on a version of our deck, and won 4 out of 5.
I'm looking at the videos now, let's see if he found something we've missed.
For now, I think I like my list better, but haven't seen the games yet
The games were pretty good. I do not like some of the card choices but I think it is a good jumping off point to figuring the deck out and making it a viable competitive deck in this modern format
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Modern CEldraziTron, UBMill, GWBogles
Legacy GUInfect, CEldrazi
Standard GRGR Pummeler
The games were pretty good. I do not like some of the card choices but I think it is a good jumping off point to figuring the deck out and making it a viable competitive deck in this modern format
Yeah, no Visions of Beyond is weird, Shelldock Isle is also a safe inclusion, specially in UB.
He went the path I'm taking, creatureless, with discard in early turns and then mill after Sanity. I play 2 less lands, but he uses 4 Ghost Quarter and I play only 2, so those 2 aren't actually "LANDS". I might give that a try tough, since getting revolt for the pushes was being kind of annoying, and it will also provide some more potential triggers for traps.
I might give the old version without Ensnaring Bridge and instead just Crypt Incursions main another go, the matches that race us are usually creature heavy and a Crypt incursion buys more time sometimes than a Bridge if you are not close to empty handed.
Bridge is great against Death Shadow though, get rid of Kolaghan's Command and it's gg...
I think he made a few mistakes building this deck
No mana sinks - Shelldocks are great especially since he has incentive to play spells after t3
Fraying Sanity as a 4-of is too much, you want to play mill spells after FS, not another one
No Visions of Beyond. Not even 1 or 2? I heard Ancestral Recall was good
Traumatize is a win-more
He has too many lands for this set of cantrips, curve and mana sinks
Too many 3-drops
Now, 1 copy of it and 1 copy of Laboratory Maniac could make that alternate mill ourselves against Leylines plan work...
We can mill both to the graveyard without any concern, and then cast rites with flashback when the time comes.
The only concern would be graveyard hate once we mill the Maniac I guess, but having to mulligan down to a disenchant effect is already pretty bad, so I will give it a try, it's just 2 cards.
Anybody tried this already or spots something I might be missing?
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1x Darkslick Shores
4x Flooded Strand
2x Ghost Quarter
3x Island
1x Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
4x Polluted Delta
3x Shelldock Isle
2x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
Sorcery (7)
4x Glimpse the Unthinkable
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Mind Funeral
2x Fraying Sanity
Instant (14)
4x Archive Trap
2x Crypt Incursion
1x Dismember
2x Fatal Push
1x Murderous Cut
4x Visions of Beyond
Creature (10)
4x Hedron Crab
1x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy Flip
1x Jace's Phantasm
4x Manic Scribe
Artifact (5)
4x Mesmeric Orb
1x Mishra's Bauble
1x Crypt Incursion
1x Dark Betrayal
1x Dispel
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Fatal Push
1x Negate
3x Set Adrift
4x Surgical Extraction
I think Mind Funeral is on par with Breaking/Entering and we should pick one based on our curve
Dark Betrayal is for grixis delver and death shadow as I was having problems with them
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
Not sure why Death's Shadow causes problems - they run 3 creatures, one of which tends to be a 1 or 2 of. Extractirpate Death's Shadow, and the deck falls apart.
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
The major problem with a primer is that everyone has different preferences. For example, I'm very big on the mill/extract plan to destroy their ability to achieve their goals. Others want the extraction in the sideboard. I'm also a big fan of Ensnaring Bridge. I don't like Fraying Sanity, others think it's the missing piece we've longed for to make Mill tier 2. So, if I wrote a primer, these biases would become apparent. I would expect biases from others as well.
The best primer may well be a team effort, wiki-style. Having someone organize a new primer and give credit to each person for writing a section may be best. Mining this thread for the best info may also work. I really do not want to see 3 different mill primers written for UB, BUG/UB and Esper. The card base is not really that diverse.
I expect it will be reprinted in one of the THREE masters sets releasing in the next year.
How does your mill deck handle Chalice on 1 and 2?
Set Adrift.
I'm putting together an Esper list to include Fraying Sanity and move away from my creatureless UB list, kind of the opposite of Quartz for now, haha. Gives us Disenchant and Path for the bad matchups. I'm torn between Breaking//Entering and Mind Funeral though - I think Quartz is right that we need to choose it based on curve, and being able to T4 double mill spell is pretty important after a Sanity I think.
UG and BUG have put up zero results so far aside from in your head, Daeyel. Give us some match reports! I think it's a lot more fragile than you'd expect. If we were to include that in a primer, should we also include one with a Duskmantle/Mindcrank package? I think neither are relevant here.
I've also put together a UB creature "heavy" list with crabs, manic scribes and some baby Jaces, with Fraying Sanity and Orbs. This was since orbs and scribes are untargeted mill, and Jace looting with more creatures plus enchantment and artifacts enables delirium faster. Started out with great results, but then lost 4 games in a row and put it on hold.
Also tried laboratory maniac and managed to wina game against lantern control with a Shelldock isle'd one in my upkeep before decking myself. Felt awesome, but it probably is a poor plan
Got 2 snapcaster mage and was the best thing i did to my deck.. 2 or 3 is the right choice i guess.
It's crazy how resourceful he can be, with 4 manas draw 6 cards and chump block and a lot of other shenanigans. Make the automill from mesmeric orb get some value.. the only problem is when Rest in Peace is played, but it's only come in against few matches.
If you can afford or give them a try , they will not waste yours expectations.
ps: If i got time from work, i will play the GP São Paulo with mill - if not, i will report about the side events in the near future.
I actually just took my snapcasters out of Esper in favour of lowering the curve - I replaced him with Breaking//Entering to increase mill threat density at the same time. He is pretty awesome if you're planning to get to 4 mana though, he's so versatile.
What do you guys think is the optimal number of lands? I think 21 or 22 is the right number, I'm on 21 with my list now.
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Shelldock Isle
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Godless Shrine
2 Watery Grave
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Darkslick Shores
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
3 Visions of Beyond
4 Mind Funeral
4 Archive Trap
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Fatal Push
2 Crypt Incursion
3 Path to Exile
4 Breaking//Entering
8 Other
4 Hedron Crab
3 Fraying Sanity
1 Ashiok Nightmare Weaver
2 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Rest in Peace
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Disenchant
2 Collective Brutality
2 Damnation
1 Stony Silence
And yea, instant speed is important to act against lots of things, but the real reason is I don't have any fragmentize. Either is good! Pretty limited options for white mana in my list since it's just a splash. I feel like my land is all over the place (so many one-ofs), which is one advantage of UB that you can run more utility lands.
I still think there's feasibility for a creatureless list with no Crabs, but Snapcasters. Leaving them with dead removal in hand is a decent move in my experience. However, I agree with the rest of the list and proportions!
For me as far as taking cards out, if I can't see something obvious (ie: Crypt Incursion vs Infect), I look at the pace I need to play at. For example, Mesmeric Orb vs Burn is way too slow, so it will usually get boarded out. Archive Trap I would board out if it was a deck that could play around it (Affinity, Skred).
Coming from a creatureless list back to using Crabs, it makes me wonder if it's worth it to have the Crabs in the sideboard to bring in game 2 after they side out all their removal. If a Crab can stick around it can easily be the most effective miller in the deck, and keeping them in the board game 1 could help them survive. Anyone try this before?
Milling ourselves and playing Laboratory Maniac is the weirdest I pulled off playing UB against leylines, if someone could point a good way of putting Lab Maniac in play from the graveyard, preferably instant speed, it might not be a bad choice. You can Fraying Sanity yourself, and the only "opponent" specific mill I play is archive trap, which could leave its place for 2 Lab Maniacs and some more protection.
I'd really like to stay UB, since we have a chance against Blood Mooon, but Push is a lot worse then Path, and we get less ways to trap them. Also, no path means we need some alternative way to deal with a resolved Gideon. Echoing truth is the most versatile, but also not a very good answer to these issues. Set Adrift is probably number 2.
I started testing a playset of Remand yesterday. The cantrips are sooo good in our deck. I never looked back after playing Thought Scour, and Remand in the 2 matches I played has been decent as well. It gives a lot of flexibility, and frequently gives us that extra dig and time to finish them. I think they will win a place in the deck.
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy has been underwhelming and I've stopped testing him. With such a low creature count, they always have the removal for him, and even if he flips, I'm not able to protect him properly.
Ensnaring Bridge is pretty good. There have been a lot of times I wished I had Ghostly Prison instead, but it's sort of Surgical vs Extirpate I guess. We just have to pick the one that works most times and don't look back, lol.
Sideboard usually means:
IN:
Disenchants/Fragmentize vs anything that can bring in Blood Moon or Leylines or Chalice, or plays a lot of artifacts
Crypt Incursions vs creature heavy decks (I put all 3 in the sideboard and maindecked Bridges)
Extract effects vs combo or anything that relies on some key cards. Don't hold these ones forever, the info on their hand and deck you get is worth playing them. Snapcasters/Eternal Witnesses are great targets since they shut down a lot of possible plays. I like Extirpate a lot more than Surgical, but that's personal taste. Split second is just amazing.
Ravenous Traps or whatever graveyard hate you pack against decks that use the graveyard, since we favor them heavily.
OUT:
Some Archive traps against decks that don't naturally search their libraries (heavy fetch or some other card), specially if I played at least 1 in g1.
Removal if they don't play creatures (duh)
Orbs and Fraying Sanity against fast, wide decks (to empty the hand faster for Bridge and make room for Crypt Incursion)
Some Visions of Beyond if they have a lot of graveyard hate.
I'm still torn about the crabs. They're so good early (specially if you get 2!).... But they just enable a lot of cards in our opponents decks (think how many playsets of Path or Push are in Modern decks, plus Dismembers, Wraths, Damnations, Verdicts, etc etc).
I'll keep testing creatureless playing either Inquisition or Remand in their place and let you guys know how it goes.
After G1, you can start a comment while sideboarding. They may initiate asking where all your creatures are. Or you can comment on all their removal. Tell 'em you don't run any critters if they ask. Watch their deck in G2. If they boarded out their removal, you are going to absolutely nail them to the wall in G3 with the Crabs. It's definitely worth mulliganing for. You have to play the long game and set them up a little.
The risk here is that the proper sideboard against Mill is often to throw the sideboard into the deck - 75 is harder to mill than 60, even if their deck is more inconsistent.
Remand has seen better days. I don't care for them, it was a Twin specialty, since Twin left their mana open due to flash. 4 is awfully expensive, when 1 or 2 will do with Dispel or Negate. Creatures are not a worry, that's what Ensnaring Bridge is for.
Experimentation is good. Edison had to find 10K ways to not light a bulb. The answer is very close. It may even be a left field answer like Spy Network (not Modern legal) or See Beyond or even Index. Something that sets up our draws. Halimar Depths, anyone?
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/against-the-odds-fraying-sanity-modern
SaffronOlive made an Against the odds on a version of our deck, and won 4 out of 5.
I'm looking at the videos now, let's see if he found something we've missed.
For now, I think I like my list better, but haven't seen the games yet
CEldraziTron, UBMill, GWBogles
Legacy
GUInfect, CEldrazi
Standard
GRGR Pummeler
Yeah, no Visions of Beyond is weird, Shelldock Isle is also a safe inclusion, specially in UB.
He went the path I'm taking, creatureless, with discard in early turns and then mill after Sanity. I play 2 less lands, but he uses 4 Ghost Quarter and I play only 2, so those 2 aren't actually "LANDS". I might give that a try tough, since getting revolt for the pushes was being kind of annoying, and it will also provide some more potential triggers for traps.
I might give the old version without Ensnaring Bridge and instead just Crypt Incursions main another go, the matches that race us are usually creature heavy and a Crypt incursion buys more time sometimes than a Bridge if you are not close to empty handed.
Bridge is great against Death Shadow though, get rid of Kolaghan's Command and it's gg...
No mana sinks - Shelldocks are great especially since he has incentive to play spells after t3
Fraying Sanity as a 4-of is too much, you want to play mill spells after FS, not another one
No Visions of Beyond. Not even 1 or 2? I heard Ancestral Recall was good
Traumatize is a win-more
He has too many lands for this set of cantrips, curve and mana sinks
Too many 3-drops
And I like Set Adrift instead of Echoing Truth.
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
Now, 1 copy of it and 1 copy of Laboratory Maniac could make that alternate mill ourselves against Leylines plan work...
We can mill both to the graveyard without any concern, and then cast rites with flashback when the time comes.
The only concern would be graveyard hate once we mill the Maniac I guess, but having to mulligan down to a disenchant effect is already pretty bad, so I will give it a try, it's just 2 cards.
Anybody tried this already or spots something I might be missing?