Bahra has played the deck since at least september.. but as you noted it certainly existed before then. Who knows where the original idea came from, it was a legacy deck first.
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=999367 That is a team italia deck from 2012 right after lingering souls came out. Maybe thats the first 'modern' version of the deck. So i guess Matthew White gets credit until proven that someone beat him to the punch when dark ascension came out
Bahra has played the deck since at least september.. but as you noted it certainly existed before then. Who knows where the original idea came from, it was a legacy deck first.
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=999367 That is a team italia deck from 2012 right after lingering souls came out. Maybe thats the first 'modern' version of the deck. So i guess Matthew White gets credit until proven that someone beat him to the punch when dark ascension came out
Changed the open post, giving him the credit.
On topic, that list gave me an idea... would Finks be a good inclusion in this deck? Or are we getting too greedy with all of the double colors?
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Decks I play:
Modern:
BR Control
Grixis Bloo
EDH:
Food Chain Prossh
Land Wipe Maelstrom Wanderer
Selvala, Hearth of the Wilds Eldrazi
Finks is fine, Something like blade splicer would be fine as well. Anything with multiple bodies, and good value is great in a deck like this.
I really feel like finks would only be great if you are in a super aggro/burn heavy environment. Online burn is pretty rare so I haven't deemed it necessary yet. At the 3 spot also Mirran Crusader isn't crazy maindeck. Any deck without bolts its fine, and if you can bait out the only bolt its fine too. Hes nuts with elspeth or a sword and the best card in the deck against a solid 25% of the meta(jund/melira pod/GW hatebears probably)
Finks is fine, Something like blade splicer would be fine as well. Anything with multiple bodies, and good value is great in a deck like this.
I really feel like finks would only be great if you are in a super aggro/burn heavy environment. Online burn is pretty rare so I haven't deemed it necessary yet. At the 3 spot also Mirran Crusader isn't crazy maindeck. Any deck without bolts its fine, and if you can bait out the only bolt its fine too. Hes nuts with elspeth or a sword and the best card in the deck against a solid 25% of the meta(jund/melira pod/GW hatebears probably)
True.
So we have 3 canidates.
1. Blade Splicer
2. Mirran Crusader
3. Finks
I like Finks SLIGHTLY more for the fact that it's annoying to kill. Plus it helps with the life loss from Thoughtseize, Fetches, Shocks, Etc.
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Decks I play:
Modern:
BR Control
Grixis Bloo
EDH:
Food Chain Prossh
Land Wipe Maelstrom Wanderer
Selvala, Hearth of the Wilds Eldrazi
I'm saying that this version really looks like my version and Bahra's version, which we started to develop when some Legacy Team Italia decks T8ed at some Starcity Opens at august/september 2013.
I have been following the stream on twitch player Bahra for a few months, I decided to buy the deck, unfortunately,i have not got the 4 dark confidant (put + 3 +1 Mirran crusader and helix in their place).
I also tried to change the sword of war an peace for the sword of light and shadow because of the 3 life, but i am not sure if that is the right move.
Yet little tested, but the only match ups that had been hard to beat are mono red and gw hatebears.
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"Why fight the body when you can dominate the mind that rules it?"
-Jace Beleren
I have been following the stream on twitch player Bahra for a few months, I decided to buy the deck, unfortunately,i have not got the 4 dark confidant (put + 3 +1 Mirran crusader and helix in their place).
I also tried to change the sword of war an peace for the sword of light and shadow because of the 3 life, but i am not sure if that is the right move.
Yet little tested, but the only match ups that had been hard to beat are mono red and gw hatebears.
This deck should be fine against those. Just kill their guys, stall then slam down a win con.
What's being played against you that giving you a hard time?
@Equinox, oh alright you sounded offended that I stole someones/your idea. Maybe Blade Splicer then seeing that he's only 2W?
EDIT: Maybe try out Aven Mindcensor again?
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Decks I play:
Modern:
BR Control
Grixis Bloo
EDH:
Food Chain Prossh
Land Wipe Maelstrom Wanderer
Selvala, Hearth of the Wilds Eldrazi
Regardless of who made the deck originally, quite a few places can get tweaked and still do well. I play ranger maindeck, I think that Hero is great too. I think Ajani is great in that spot as well.
I like having sword of light and shadow... I find it better overall than WaP. Red protection not that relevant since they will bolt you in response to equip, less red creatures as well. Plus a creature back>the small amount of damage it deals usually (1-3)
Lets all agree this deck is about 1000x cooler than Jund. I would liken to to a Finesse Jund, with more surgical tools, and less dumb 'brute force'.
Regardless of who make the deck originally, quite a few places can get tweaked and still do well. I play ranger maindeck, I think that Hero is great too. I think Ajani is great in that spot as well.
I like having sword of light and shadow... I find it better overall than WaP. Red protection not that relevant since they will bolt you in response to equip, less red creatures as well. Plus a creature back>the small amount of damage it deals usually (1-3)
Yeah, I like Hero for it's more aggressive.
As for Light and Shadow, I'll try finding one. But no one wants to trade them :c. I can see why.
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Decks I play:
Modern:
BR Control
Grixis Bloo
EDH:
Food Chain Prossh
Land Wipe Maelstrom Wanderer
Selvala, Hearth of the Wilds Eldrazi
I'm wondering why we play 4 Path instead of a Path/Terminate split to mitigate the downside of Path? The exile clause matters against Voice of Resurgence and Wurmcoil, and the mana cost matters a good deal against Twin, but giving them a land is bad vs. Jund and UWR it seems.
@Zomfshark...I cant be offended cause this deck exist for some years now, in its legacy form at least and since Gerard Fabiano is the original designer of the deck, only him can claim the idea.
I only want to make things clear and as you can see on my Join Date, I have some know how in Magic. I play since 1999 and know this forum since 2006.
As for your suggestion, tbh, I dont like any other creature in the deck, maybe mindcensor on the SB. This is a grindy deck, you have ways to disrupt opponents hand, board, graveyard. You have a draw engine, life gain, direct damage and all this in a very low mana curve, with a lot of one drops.
This is why I like 4 Lightning Helix on the deck instead of 2-2 with some Sword. Helix give you more burn/kill power but a little less board control. I lost the count of how many games I won via burn + Shaman/Lavancer or Burn + Ajani.
P.S.: Right now I'm testing 1-1 Ajani/Elspeth. I can say that Elspeth won some games, but Ajani would do the same is some situations. Maybe I kp Elspeth and stay with the versatility of both Planeswalkers.
@Zomfshark...I cant be offended cause this deck exist for some years now, in its legacy form at least and since Gerard Fabiano is the original designer of the deck, only him can claim the idea.
I only want to make things clear and as you can see on my Join Date, I have some know how in Magic. I play since 1999 and know this forum since 2006.
As for your suggestion, tbh, I dont like any other creature in the deck, maybe mindcensor on the SB. This is a grindy deck, you have ways to disrupt opponents hand, board, graveyard. You have a draw engine, life gain, direct damage and all this in a very low mana curve, with a lot of one drops.
This is why I like 4 Lightning Helix on the deck instead of 2-2 with some Sword. Helix give you more burn/kill power but a little less board control. I lost the count of how many games I won via burn + Shaman/Lavancer or Burn + Ajani.
P.S.: Right now I'm testing 1-1 Ajani/Elspeth. I can say that Elspeth won some games, but Ajani would do the same is some situations. Maybe I kp Elspeth and stay with the versatility of both Planeswalkers.
I would, Elspeth is a wincon.
I prefer versatility when I build decks, so incase someone sides in Leyline of Sanctity against me and shuts off my burn, that way I can still punch through with more of my beefy creatures.
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Decks I play:
Modern:
BR Control
Grixis Bloo
EDH:
Food Chain Prossh
Land Wipe Maelstrom Wanderer
Selvala, Hearth of the Wilds Eldrazi
I'm wondering why we play 4 Path instead of a Path/Terminate split to mitigate the downside of Path? The exile clause matters against Voice of Resurgence and Wurmcoil, and the mana cost matters a good deal against Twin, but giving them a land is bad vs. Jund and UWR it seems.
The reason why we don't play terminate is because Helix is better in most situations. We lose quite a bit of life with this deck with Fetching, Thoughtseize, etc.
Helix, soothes that life loss quite a bit.
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Decks I play:
Modern:
BR Control
Grixis Bloo
EDH:
Food Chain Prossh
Land Wipe Maelstrom Wanderer
Selvala, Hearth of the Wilds Eldrazi
I'm wondering why we play 4 Path instead of a Path/Terminate split to mitigate the downside of Path? The exile clause matters against Voice of Resurgence and Wurmcoil, and the mana cost matters a good deal against Twin, but giving them a land is bad vs. Jund and UWR it seems.
As someone who didn't play with path at all until recently, There hasn't been 1 time i can remember where I would have preferred Terminate to path.
The 1 mana extra can be very relevant when you are tight on mana, and the fact you need black and red can be very relevant when you want to be using double deathrites, deathrite/lavamancer and such.
Path is just amazing. Plus you want as many as you can get for wurmcoil/voice/finks which are annoying as hell.
I don't like the idea of putting blade splicers, finks and etc because this deck's main function is the control of hand and field. I think it's perfect as it is, since all the main deck creatures are supporters or provide some control (like grim lavamancer). Sword of Light and Shadow is not worth it because the deck doesnt have enough creatures to make it worth it. War and Peace is great as a finisher and for the protection against bolts and paths. The opponent might bolt in response, but if he doesn't it becomes a pretty bad situation for him.
But Mirrans in SB is pretty good still against BGs, Junds and Pods. It's worth it. If it were to put a creature like finks or blade splicer, it would be better to just put tarmogoyf, and not a cheap replacer.
I don't like the idea of putting blade splicers, finks and etc because this deck's main function is the control of hand and field. I think it's perfect as it is, since all the main deck creatures are supporters or provide some control (like grim lavamancer). Sword of Light and Shadow is not worth it because the deck doesnt have enough creatures to make it worth it. War and Peace is great as a finisher and for the protection against bolts and paths. The opponent might bolt in response, but if he doesn't it becomes a pretty bad situation for him.
But Mirrans in SB is pretty good still against BGs, Junds and Pods. It's worth it. If it were to put a creature like finks or blade splicer, it would be better to just put tarmogoyf, and not a cheap replacer.
Really not seeing how sword of war and peace is better. Again i have done extensive testing of the swords, and war and peace does damage based on their cards. The opponent will have 1-3 cards tops in any matchup that will let you cast it (blue will counter it most of the time).
Basically i think the life swing is slighly better for WaP(we will probably gain MORE life with LaS so thats irrelevant), but you get +1 CA if you have any creature in the yard, which when you are both topdecking/close to it is pretty huge. Bringing back a bob feels good man.
Really not seeing how sword of war and peace is better. Again i have done extensive testing of the swords, and war and peace does damage based on their cards. The opponent will have 1-3 cards tops in any matchup that will let you cast it (blue will counter it most of the time).
Basically i think the life swing is slighly better for WaP(we will probably gain MORE life with LaS so thats irrelevant), but you get +1 CA if you have any creature in the yard, which when you are both topdecking/close to it is pretty huge. Bringing back a bob feels good man.
I like to have the split of both though tbh.
With 4 bobs, the synergy is pretty damn good, cause you'll probably have 3+ cards in hand when you attack. A bob, grim lavamancer or token equipped with light and shadow will die to a single bolt. You'll have spent 2 cmc for the creature +2 cmc for the equipping and when it gets to your opponent's turn he'll 1cmc bolt the creature.
Ive played with light and shadow a long time in Hatebears, which is the deck that it can take probably the most advantage of the light and shadow and yet, i prefer war and peace. And the countering works the same way for light and shadow.
Ranger is consistently amazing for me... I find it really hard to go back to Ajani. Just won me a game against Zur i would have lost badly otherwise(although ajani to lock down zur would make it go longer) and once you bait all the counters out hes amazing against UWR.
Basically I am turned on by this card.. never thought I would be that 'value' guy. But here I am. I really need to try figure of destiny(saw play in the legacy version) and Mikaeus(soso good with lingering souls).
A couple more obervations. Liliana of the Veil has been one of my weaker cards. Some matchups it is invaluable sure, but overall I feel i board it out the most(maybe I am wrong there?).
Lingering Souls is fine as a 4 of? Considering trying just 3. Drawing two with a land light hand is pretty bad, but you always want at least 1 in creature matchups, and a second is usually fine.
I really just need to work on the sideboard tweaking. What decks do you bring rule of law in against? One of the cards I haven't tried.
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=999367 That is a team italia deck from 2012 right after lingering souls came out. Maybe thats the first 'modern' version of the deck. So i guess Matthew White gets credit until proven that someone beat him to the punch when dark ascension came out
Changed the open post, giving him the credit.
On topic, that list gave me an idea... would Finks be a good inclusion in this deck? Or are we getting too greedy with all of the double colors?
Modern:
BR Control
Grixis Bloo
EDH:
Food Chain Prossh
Land Wipe Maelstrom Wanderer
Selvala, Hearth of the Wilds Eldrazi
I really feel like finks would only be great if you are in a super aggro/burn heavy environment. Online burn is pretty rare so I haven't deemed it necessary yet. At the 3 spot also Mirran Crusader isn't crazy maindeck. Any deck without bolts its fine, and if you can bait out the only bolt its fine too. Hes nuts with elspeth or a sword and the best card in the deck against a solid 25% of the meta(jund/melira pod/GW hatebears probably)
True.
So we have 3 canidates.
1. Blade Splicer
2. Mirran Crusader
3. Finks
I like Finks SLIGHTLY more for the fact that it's annoying to kill. Plus it helps with the life loss from Thoughtseize, Fetches, Shocks, Etc.
Modern:
BR Control
Grixis Bloo
EDH:
Food Chain Prossh
Land Wipe Maelstrom Wanderer
Selvala, Hearth of the Wilds Eldrazi
I'm not requesting the patent of the deck...LoL
I'm saying that this version really looks like my version and Bahra's version, which we started to develop when some Legacy Team Italia decks T8ed at some Starcity Opens at august/september 2013.
I'm not a big daily player at MTGO, but I can prove that I played my first version in September 2013.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/player/equinox_br
Kitchen Finks isnt a good idea, the mana base cant support him that well. And playing Finks makes the deck a bad Team Italia and a bad Junk/Jund.
Moderm - Mono blue Tron and Eldrazi variants
Legacy - Building Eldrazi Stompy
My team for ever ever:
Sport Club Internacional
www.internacional.com.br
I'm not Bahra. And yeah, it's an adaptation of the Legacy Team Italia for Modern. Its a Modern version.
I also tried to change the sword of war an peace for the sword of light and shadow because of the 3 life, but i am not sure if that is the right move.
Yet little tested, but the only match ups that had been hard to beat are mono red and gw hatebears.
-Jace Beleren
This deck should be fine against those. Just kill their guys, stall then slam down a win con.
What's being played against you that giving you a hard time?
@Equinox, oh alright you sounded offended that I stole someones/your idea. Maybe Blade Splicer then seeing that he's only 2W?
EDIT: Maybe try out Aven Mindcensor again?
Modern:
BR Control
Grixis Bloo
EDH:
Food Chain Prossh
Land Wipe Maelstrom Wanderer
Selvala, Hearth of the Wilds Eldrazi
I like having sword of light and shadow... I find it better overall than WaP. Red protection not that relevant since they will bolt you in response to equip, less red creatures as well. Plus a creature back>the small amount of damage it deals usually (1-3)
Lets all agree this deck is about 1000x cooler than Jund. I would liken to to a Finesse Jund, with more surgical tools, and less dumb 'brute force'.
Yeah, I like Hero for it's more aggressive.
As for Light and Shadow, I'll try finding one. But no one wants to trade them :c. I can see why.
Modern:
BR Control
Grixis Bloo
EDH:
Food Chain Prossh
Land Wipe Maelstrom Wanderer
Selvala, Hearth of the Wilds Eldrazi
I only want to make things clear and as you can see on my Join Date, I have some know how in Magic. I play since 1999 and know this forum since 2006.
As for your suggestion, tbh, I dont like any other creature in the deck, maybe mindcensor on the SB. This is a grindy deck, you have ways to disrupt opponents hand, board, graveyard. You have a draw engine, life gain, direct damage and all this in a very low mana curve, with a lot of one drops.
This is why I like 4 Lightning Helix on the deck instead of 2-2 with some Sword. Helix give you more burn/kill power but a little less board control. I lost the count of how many games I won via burn + Shaman/Lavancer or Burn + Ajani.
Again, here is my current list:
4x Arid Mesa
2x Blackcleave Cliffs
2x Blood Crypt
1x Ghost Quarter
2x Godless Shrine
1x Lavaclaw Reaches
4x Marsh Flats
1x Mountain
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Swamp
1x Temple Garden
4x Deathrite Shaman
2x Grim Lavamancer
2x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Lightning Helix
4x Path to Exile
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
3x Thoughtseize
3x Liliana of the Veil
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Batterskull
2x Mirran Crusader
2x Rule of Law
3x Sowing Salt
3x Stony Silence
1x Wear / Tear
P.S.: Right now I'm testing 1-1 Ajani/Elspeth. I can say that Elspeth won some games, but Ajani would do the same is some situations. Maybe I kp Elspeth and stay with the versatility of both Planeswalkers.
Moderm - Mono blue Tron and Eldrazi variants
Legacy - Building Eldrazi Stompy
My team for ever ever:
Sport Club Internacional
www.internacional.com.br
I would, Elspeth is a wincon.
I prefer versatility when I build decks, so incase someone sides in Leyline of Sanctity against me and shuts off my burn, that way I can still punch through with more of my beefy creatures.
Modern:
BR Control
Grixis Bloo
EDH:
Food Chain Prossh
Land Wipe Maelstrom Wanderer
Selvala, Hearth of the Wilds Eldrazi
The reason why we don't play terminate is because Helix is better in most situations. We lose quite a bit of life with this deck with Fetching, Thoughtseize, etc.
Helix, soothes that life loss quite a bit.
Modern:
BR Control
Grixis Bloo
EDH:
Food Chain Prossh
Land Wipe Maelstrom Wanderer
Selvala, Hearth of the Wilds Eldrazi
As someone who didn't play with path at all until recently, There hasn't been 1 time i can remember where I would have preferred Terminate to path.
The 1 mana extra can be very relevant when you are tight on mana, and the fact you need black and red can be very relevant when you want to be using double deathrites, deathrite/lavamancer and such.
Path is just amazing. Plus you want as many as you can get for wurmcoil/voice/finks which are annoying as hell.
But Mirrans in SB is pretty good still against BGs, Junds and Pods. It's worth it. If it were to put a creature like finks or blade splicer, it would be better to just put tarmogoyf, and not a cheap replacer.
Really not seeing how sword of war and peace is better. Again i have done extensive testing of the swords, and war and peace does damage based on their cards. The opponent will have 1-3 cards tops in any matchup that will let you cast it (blue will counter it most of the time).
Basically i think the life swing is slighly better for WaP(we will probably gain MORE life with LaS so thats irrelevant), but you get +1 CA if you have any creature in the yard, which when you are both topdecking/close to it is pretty huge. Bringing back a bob feels good man.
I like to have the split of both though tbh.
With 4 bobs, the synergy is pretty damn good, cause you'll probably have 3+ cards in hand when you attack. A bob, grim lavamancer or token equipped with light and shadow will die to a single bolt. You'll have spent 2 cmc for the creature +2 cmc for the equipping and when it gets to your opponent's turn he'll 1cmc bolt the creature.
Ive played with light and shadow a long time in Hatebears, which is the deck that it can take probably the most advantage of the light and shadow and yet, i prefer war and peace. And the countering works the same way for light and shadow.
Basically I am turned on by this card.. never thought I would be that 'value' guy. But here I am. I really need to try figure of destiny(saw play in the legacy version) and Mikaeus(soso good with lingering souls).
A couple more obervations. Liliana of the Veil has been one of my weaker cards. Some matchups it is invaluable sure, but overall I feel i board it out the most(maybe I am wrong there?).
Lingering Souls is fine as a 4 of? Considering trying just 3. Drawing two with a land light hand is pretty bad, but you always want at least 1 in creature matchups, and a second is usually fine.
I really just need to work on the sideboard tweaking. What decks do you bring rule of law in against? One of the cards I haven't tried.