That's fair, and I may totally be wrong. The problem I have with choosing Red and then holding up Counter Magic is if that Bounce spell is Wipe Away. With my current configuration, Iona is more of an extra than the sole focus. My wins against Storm have largely been on the back of Thought Knot beats while holding up counters instead of going for Iona and holding counters.
I will start naming Red with her though, because you do make good points.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
If they have the wipe away, nothing you can really do. They got the cheese, they got the cheese.
They can’t generate enough mana to gifts + cast wipe away if you have Iona on red. They also can’t just go off while ignoring her, either. It makes her a piece of hate that requires being answered vs a threat that can be ignored for 2+ turns.
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I've really enjoyed catching up on this thread and the discussion about U/R Storm. I wish I had more practical tournament experience with the deck, I work almost every Friday evening, and there isn't a strong MTG presence at my LGS that isn't FNM. The last time I played was pre-Ixalan, and I played Grixis Death Shadow, an Elves brew, and Living End. I had never played against GDS before, and I knew I was playing sloppy in the match, walking into Stubborn Denials etc. It doesn't seem like that hard a matchup for us, I was just playing against the clock instead of playing smart.
I'm planning on going back this week, and I fully anticipate playing against GDS again. Is there anything new that came out in Ixalan that they're using we should watch out for? How much of a problem does this new 5-colour human deck seem to be?
I'll see if I can put together a useful tournament report after this Friday, and try and give some insight to what I face off against!
Grixis deaths shadow (GDS) isn’t really the boogeyman deck right now, they’re more likely to be playing the more aggressive version of the deck (4-5C) with mainboard Temur Battle Rage to try and cheese out a quick win.
I’d expect the meta to be Eldrazi Tron, some Collected company decks, some # of storm (very popular & inexpensive), maybe some taxes, and the rest to be blitz decks (Affinity, humans, etc)
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BR Reveler 2 - 1
UR Storm 2 - 0
UR Hollow One? 2 - 1
Jeskai Control 2 - 0
5 Color Humans 2 - 1 (He got salty af)
Interestingly, against Reveler, Storm, and Hollow One they both slammed Blood Moon and it punished them way more than it did me. Reveler choked himself on Black and couldn't discard + force through threats, while Storm and Hollow One couldn't hold up counter magic for my bombs since they didn't have enough Blue. I feel people see Tron lands and 2 colors and assume that I'll be hurting much more than they will.
Funnily kodieyost, against Storm I only ever got to Rites target Iona before he scooped. Never got the choice of Blue or Red
Alexorr256, I don't think GDS has picked up any new tech with Ixalan. The new Planeswalker rule is the only thing I think that they "gained" but I have yet to see them start running multiple Lilianas.
I also feel 5 Color Humans can be tough, but slightly favored for us given the Wraths and spot removal. Having 3/4 different named wrath's help hedge against Meddling Mage, and the point removal can help prepare by picking off Thalia or Freebooter. Speaking of which, I've found that it really comes down to how much damage their Free Booter or Thalia can do. If they don't see either of these, I think you're very favored, but if they chain them it becomes a very steep uphill battle.
I could be wrong, I've only faced the deck 4 times and won 3 of those. That's not nearly enough experience to be definitive, but in theory, and so far in practice, it isn't too bad as long as you don't keep greedy hands.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
Gideon Intervention has been a great tech for me against Valakut and Storm, but I’m still having a hard time against GBx shell. The Promised End might be a win more but I like it very much. It lose a lot of value after game 1 when grave hate come in though.
I've really enjoyed TKS as just a general good stuff card. EOT Bouncing a Blood Moon with Repeal then stealing it with TKS has happened a few times, but for the most part he puts in work as a beater and sniping combo pieces.
I've seen a few UW Control players use Gideon's Intervention and claim it to be pretty decent. I'm not sold on it, but I can see it being alright since it doubles as Runed Halo and Nevermore.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
So, I have about 90% of the pieces for the deck, all I'm missing is: Celestial Colonnades, Ugin, Snapcaster Mage, TKS and Emrakul. This is mostly due to budget constraints (I've been building this deck for like 2 years now). My question to you is, which pieces do I prioritise?
I'd say Colonnades, everything else is a generally a one of and all personal choice. My local meta has a ton of E-Tron running around which is why I cut Ugin for example.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
So, I have about 90% of the pieces for the deck, all I'm missing is: Celestial Colonnades, Ugin, Snapcaster Mage, TKS and Emrakul. This is mostly due to budget constraints (I've been building this deck for like 2 years now). My question to you is, which pieces do I prioritise?
This depends entirely on what your meta looks like.
Personally, I'd say Colonnades or Ugin. Ugin is very powerful in some matchups and just a slam dunk of a card. Colonnades are just good dual lands in general, and being able to attack or block is quite good.
Snapcaster is a nice card, but honestly, as a 1-of card, it's easily replaceable. It's effect isn't so powerful or unique that you need to have one. Emrakul is also optional, I played Mindslaver lock instead last night with minimal support (just one Academy Ruins). Academy Ruins + Mindslaver is a very cheap late-game alternative.
TKS is a card not everyone plays, the list I played last night didn't have one; it might be the most accessible card though, as it only just rotated. Now is about the best time to pick up TKS if you want one.
So I played the deck last night. I opted to try a package of just Mindslaver and a single Academy Ruins as a way to make a bit more space. I played a Search for Azcanta as well, I think early filtering combined with the ability to flip into a blue source is solid. It's currently in a flex-draw spot that has been occupied by cards such as Anticipate and Search For Tomorrow in the past. Still have Oblivion Stone and EE in the main, with a single Godless Shrine for EE. Pretty standard outside of that.
Round 1 Mono White Hatebears
Game 1 and 2 were very similar wins for me. The game stalled out from a slow start on my opponent's side, and some combination of Wrath effects + Iona / Elesh Norn / Ugin was enough to seal the games. He didn't really have a fast start in either game and it was completely manageable. Sometimes the games went a little long as I was just keeping myself in it until I finally got there.
Record: 1-0
Round 2 vs Merfolk
Game 1 she had a fast start and I was at 1 when I activated Azcanta to find a Sphinx's Rev, which I soon cast for 12. That sealed the game, let me clean up her board and win shortly after. Game 2 I just got smashed, bad draw and not enough interaction. Game 3 I cast Gifts on turn 3 and she had a counter, but I had a second Gifts. She had led with Aether Vial, so the game ended up being a lot closer than I thought it would be. I got down to a fairly low life total and had some close calls, but narrowly got there after she didn't draw the lords she needed at the right times.
Record: 2-0
Round 3 vs Storm
Game 1 was not very close, my opponent took it nice and slow and I didn't draw what I needed. Maybe I shouldn't say not close, if I had drawn a Tower I would have Mindslaver'd my opponent and won. As I didn't though, when I cast it and passed, he killed me that turn. Game 2 was quite close, I resolved Elesh Norn from Rites after he went off with Empty the Warrens. I was looking good until he drew exactly what he needed in Past In Flames while I was holding Dispel.
Record: 2-1
Round 4 vs Affinity
In game 1 he stomps me with the one draw that races me, turn 2 Steel Overseer on the play. He got creatures out of Elesh Norn range and then had manlands with counters on them if I Wrathed. I got into a situation where I was alive and could cast Gifts on his turn 4, but I was still dead on board regardless of whether I picked a Wrath or Elesh Norn package. In game 2, I draw a hand with some interaction in Timely, but my opponent kills me with Inkmoth Nexuses and a couple Signal Pests. It was unfortunate that he had the only hand I really wasn't prepared to deal with. Again I got to a point where I just couldn't win no matter what line I took. This guy just has my number, he always beats me in the only way he can.
I just saw it in the much abrew article, but what do we think about including thalias lancers as a maindeck tutor for Iona/elesh/elspeth/ugin/emrakul for the games that bring in sideboard hate against the reanimation? I feel like if they slow down a turn to play grave hate, it wouldn't be the worst to spend a turn tutoring. Especially since it curves out nice with t4 gifts/wrath, t5 lancers, t6 elspeth, elesh, iona (ramp dependent on mana etc.) To me it feels like it has viability.
I just saw it in the much abrew article, but what do we think about including thalias lancers as a maindeck tutor for Iona/elesh/elspeth/ugin/emrakul for the games that bring in sideboard hate against the reanimation? I feel like if they slow down a turn to play grave hate, it wouldn't be the worst to spend a turn tutoring. Especially since it curves out nice with t4 gifts/wrath, t5 lancers, t6 elspeth, elesh, iona (ramp dependent on mana etc.) To me it feels like it has viability.
My one issue with that is that you're now playing a singleton copy of a card to fetch a creature that half the time, you can't cast. When you're at 9 mana to cast Iona, you're typically in a position to do a lot of crazy things. Thalia's lancers feels like a card that will otherwise be very dead. A 4/4 first strike isn't something I'm happy playing, it's explicitly for the second line of text. As it stands, I just don't think this card is useful enough, even out of the sideboard. If I'm concerned enough that early graveyard hate is a problem, then I probably will die before hardcasting if I don't draw other useful things.
That's true, and what I figured was the downside to the choice after all. I was considering it since there's RW enchantment prison decks in my meta, and with leyline of sanctity turning off gifts, as well as graveyard stuff. So I was considering running one or two copies to swap out for gifts in case they get a hand with sanctities, but I feel like that's a big edge case for a deck that's not too popular.
How many counterspells and in what configuration are you playing them? Currently on 3/3 Remand Condescend main and while it generally feels fine, sometimes it feels like more board interaction would serve the same purpose.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
Right now I'm the inverse of Darksteel, with 3 Condescend and 2 Remand. I used to run 2 and 2, and have a 1-of Batterskull in the main to establish a potentially early threat on the board, but my area is pretty heavy with both spot removal and combo decks, so having more answers to keeping my big stuff around has been useful.
Right now I'm the inverse of Darksteel, with 3 Condescend and 2 Remand. I used to run 2 and 2, and have a 1-of Batterskull in the main to establish a potentially early threat on the board, but my area is pretty heavy with both spot removal and combo decks, so having more answers to keeping my big stuff around has been useful.
That's what I ran tonight, dropping my third remand for Search for Azcanta. I've got a ton of E-Tron running around with Caverns, so counters have been a little lack luster. I think I prefer U Scry 2 to U Draw a card. (Plus new art in Iconic Masters!)
Do you mind sharing your list? I'm always looking for new tech and spice
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
I'm running a fairly standard list, but lately I've been wondering if it might make more sense to drop the tron and mindslaver for 4 eldrazi temple. I find that 1 mindslave effect off of emrakul, the promised end seems to end most games that otherwise need mindslave effects. this would free up some land slots for mana consistency.
I really like the lines of play that the deck has, but the tron in the past several games has felt kind of distant. not really getting a ton of bang for the rediculus amounts of mana, that i couldn't just accomplish with 8 lands.
As I look at other lists, I'm also seeing more thought-knot seer included as well.
I will start naming Red with her though, because you do make good points.
They can’t generate enough mana to gifts + cast wipe away if you have Iona on red. They also can’t just go off while ignoring her, either. It makes her a piece of hate that requires being answered vs a threat that can be ignored for 2+ turns.
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I'm planning on going back this week, and I fully anticipate playing against GDS again. Is there anything new that came out in Ixalan that they're using we should watch out for? How much of a problem does this new 5-colour human deck seem to be?
I'll see if I can put together a useful tournament report after this Friday, and try and give some insight to what I face off against!
I’d expect the meta to be Eldrazi Tron, some Collected company decks, some # of storm (very popular & inexpensive), maybe some taxes, and the rest to be blitz decks (Affinity, humans, etc)
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BR Reveler 2 - 1
UR Storm 2 - 0
UR Hollow One? 2 - 1
Jeskai Control 2 - 0
5 Color Humans 2 - 1 (He got salty af)
Interestingly, against Reveler, Storm, and Hollow One they both slammed Blood Moon and it punished them way more than it did me. Reveler choked himself on Black and couldn't discard + force through threats, while Storm and Hollow One couldn't hold up counter magic for my bombs since they didn't have enough Blue. I feel people see Tron lands and 2 colors and assume that I'll be hurting much more than they will.
Tweaked list was:
2 Azorius Signet
1 Talisman of Progress
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
4 Path to Exile
1 Repeal
1 Blessed Alliance
3 Remand
3 Condescend
3 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Unburial Rites
1 Day of Judgment
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
3 Urza's Power Plant
3 Urza's Mine
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Field of Ruin
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Flooded Strand
4 Celestial Colonnade
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Terastodon
2 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Negate
1 Pithing Needle
1 Disenchant
1 Dispel
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Celestial Purge
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Settle the Wreckage
Funnily kodieyost, against Storm I only ever got to Rites target Iona before he scooped. Never got the choice of Blue or Red
Alexorr256, I don't think GDS has picked up any new tech with Ixalan. The new Planeswalker rule is the only thing I think that they "gained" but I have yet to see them start running multiple Lilianas.
I also feel 5 Color Humans can be tough, but slightly favored for us given the Wraths and spot removal. Having 3/4 different named wrath's help hedge against Meddling Mage, and the point removal can help prepare by picking off Thalia or Freebooter. Speaking of which, I've found that it really comes down to how much damage their Free Booter or Thalia can do. If they don't see either of these, I think you're very favored, but if they chain them it becomes a very steep uphill battle.
I could be wrong, I've only faced the deck 4 times and won 3 of those. That's not nearly enough experience to be definitive, but in theory, and so far in practice, it isn't too bad as long as you don't keep greedy hands.
Deck: Gifts Tron.dec
Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard
Creatures:4
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
Spells:32
3 Condescend
3 Expedition Map
4 Path to Exile
3 Azorius Signet
2 Remand
1 Detention Sphere
1 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Day of Judgment
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
1 Unburial Rites
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Mindslaver
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Lands:24
1 Academy Ruins
2 Celestial Colonnade
3 Flooded Strand
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Plains
3 Urza's Mine
3 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
Sideboard:15
1 Dispel
1 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Repeal
1 Celestial Purge
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Disenchant
2 Negate
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Gideon's Intervention
Gideon Intervention has been a great tech for me against Valakut and Storm, but I’m still having a hard time against GBx shell. The Promised End might be a win more but I like it very much. It lose a lot of value after game 1 when grave hate come in though.
I've seen a few UW Control players use Gideon's Intervention and claim it to be pretty decent. I'm not sold on it, but I can see it being alright since it doubles as Runed Halo and Nevermore.
So, I have about 90% of the pieces for the deck, all I'm missing is: Celestial Colonnades, Ugin, Snapcaster Mage, TKS and Emrakul. This is mostly due to budget constraints (I've been building this deck for like 2 years now). My question to you is, which pieces do I prioritise?
This depends entirely on what your meta looks like.
Personally, I'd say Colonnades or Ugin. Ugin is very powerful in some matchups and just a slam dunk of a card. Colonnades are just good dual lands in general, and being able to attack or block is quite good.
Snapcaster is a nice card, but honestly, as a 1-of card, it's easily replaceable. It's effect isn't so powerful or unique that you need to have one. Emrakul is also optional, I played Mindslaver lock instead last night with minimal support (just one Academy Ruins). Academy Ruins + Mindslaver is a very cheap late-game alternative.
TKS is a card not everyone plays, the list I played last night didn't have one; it might be the most accessible card though, as it only just rotated. Now is about the best time to pick up TKS if you want one.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
Round 1 Mono White Hatebears
Game 1 and 2 were very similar wins for me. The game stalled out from a slow start on my opponent's side, and some combination of Wrath effects + Iona / Elesh Norn / Ugin was enough to seal the games. He didn't really have a fast start in either game and it was completely manageable. Sometimes the games went a little long as I was just keeping myself in it until I finally got there.
Record: 1-0
Round 2 vs Merfolk
Game 1 she had a fast start and I was at 1 when I activated Azcanta to find a Sphinx's Rev, which I soon cast for 12. That sealed the game, let me clean up her board and win shortly after. Game 2 I just got smashed, bad draw and not enough interaction. Game 3 I cast Gifts on turn 3 and she had a counter, but I had a second Gifts. She had led with Aether Vial, so the game ended up being a lot closer than I thought it would be. I got down to a fairly low life total and had some close calls, but narrowly got there after she didn't draw the lords she needed at the right times.
Record: 2-0
Round 3 vs Storm
Game 1 was not very close, my opponent took it nice and slow and I didn't draw what I needed. Maybe I shouldn't say not close, if I had drawn a Tower I would have Mindslaver'd my opponent and won. As I didn't though, when I cast it and passed, he killed me that turn. Game 2 was quite close, I resolved Elesh Norn from Rites after he went off with Empty the Warrens. I was looking good until he drew exactly what he needed in Past In Flames while I was holding Dispel.
Record: 2-1
Round 4 vs Affinity
In game 1 he stomps me with the one draw that races me, turn 2 Steel Overseer on the play. He got creatures out of Elesh Norn range and then had manlands with counters on them if I Wrathed. I got into a situation where I was alive and could cast Gifts on his turn 4, but I was still dead on board regardless of whether I picked a Wrath or Elesh Norn package. In game 2, I draw a hand with some interaction in Timely, but my opponent kills me with Inkmoth Nexuses and a couple Signal Pests. It was unfortunate that he had the only hand I really wasn't prepared to deal with. Again I got to a point where I just couldn't win no matter what line I took. This guy just has my number, he always beats me in the only way he can.
Record: 2-2
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
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Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
That's what I ran tonight, dropping my third remand for Search for Azcanta. I've got a ton of E-Tron running around with Caverns, so counters have been a little lack luster. I think I prefer U Scry 2 to U Draw a card. (Plus new art in Iconic Masters!)
Do you mind sharing your list? I'm always looking for new tech and spice
I'm running a fairly standard list, but lately I've been wondering if it might make more sense to drop the tron and mindslaver for 4 eldrazi temple. I find that 1 mindslave effect off of emrakul, the promised end seems to end most games that otherwise need mindslave effects. this would free up some land slots for mana consistency.
I really like the lines of play that the deck has, but the tron in the past several games has felt kind of distant. not really getting a ton of bang for the rediculus amounts of mana, that i couldn't just accomplish with 8 lands.
As I look at other lists, I'm also seeing more thought-knot seer included as well.
my current list,
12 tron,
7 blue white lands
3 celestial colonade
1 academy ruins
3 remand
4 condescend
4 thirst for knowledge
4 gifts ungiven
3 talisman of progress
3 expedition map
3 path to exile
1 cyclonic rift
1 oblivion stone
1 day of judgement
1 wrath of god
1 supreme verdict
1 ugin, the spirit dragon
1 unburial rites
1 iona, shield of emeria
1 elesh norn, grand cenobite
1 sundering titan
1 wurmcoil engine
1 emrakul, the promised end
1 mindslaver