Welcome to the updated thread for RW prisons. This is the thread for RW Prison strategies.
The term Prison applies to a deck that is designed to prevent the opponent from playing, normally by removing their resources and deploying defensive permanents such as Chalice of the Void . Stack interaction is generally kept to a relative minimum, in contrast to classic control shells using counterspells. These decks tend to be very low on creatures, often blanking large chunks of the opponent's suite of spells. They also tend to mess with the opponent's mana base in some way and have a tendency to "go long." There are three basic shells that overlap here, presented in order of how widely they are currently played.
RW offers a very wide toolbox of cards. White has often been referred to as the "sideboard colour" of Modern, due to the fact that it has the most efficient hate cards, some of which are in fact able to be included in the main deck. Red offers the ability to disrupt mana, which is a non-no for every other colour in the format. This is most often achieved with the wildly moaned about Blood Moon, although other red spells can actually destroy lands.
RW Prison decks have had intermittent infrequent SCG level success for some while, whilst specifically the Planeswalker Control (Sun and Moon) version has exploded over 2016, gaining a lot of success as more players pick it up.
This combination of factors mean that the deck plays very differently from stack based control lists such as USA Control.
The most successful version of the deck is the Planeswalker Control version, known as Sun and Moon by some sites. This is why this thread has been placed in "tier 2", and if you want a ready-to-go list with a decent chance of SCG type success then this is the version for you. It probably has the least room for deck-building innovation as it is the most well-known version of the deck, having been extensively covered on SCG et al. Steven Livingstone had a variation on this in his 6th place at a SCG Invitational Qualifier in November 2016 that included a Kiki package, so innovation is not completely out of the question, but in general this version of the deck has the most agreement on what should be played. If you do play this version you should be aware that opponents will probably have encountered the deck and will likely have a good idea of your list.
The Planeswalker list evolved in 2016 from the Bridge Control lists that feature in the second part of the primer. These are a very similar shell to the Planeswalker lists, which essentially came about by including Nahiri and Emrakul and replacing Ensnaring Bridge , including more sorcery spells and Planeswalkers. There is more scope for building and refining lists here using the extensive pool of playable red and white Modern cards. Whilst he match ups are broadly similar to the Planeswalker lists, there are some differences.
The final version is Landkill, which overlaps with the Bridge lists but has a very different feel. Here the focus is on land destruction and white's unique portfolio of taxes. This has probably the most room for innovation, those lists that have done well have been very, very different. This has a very different set of match-ups too, for example Gx tron is one of the easier match-ups.
(1) Planeswalker Control- "Sun and Moon"
This list is a prison-esque list developed mainly by Todd Stevens. He prefers not to call it a prison because it only has 8 genuine prison cards. Sadly for him, whilst he managed to make the name "Sun and Moon" stick, the moniker of "RW Prison" has also stuck on several top MTG sites and he called it W/R prison in his article for SCG at the end of November. The deck is less about lockdown than its predecessors.
The deck is famous for two cards that can steal wins. The first is Chalice of the Void and it can be deployed earlier than would be normal via Simian Spirit Guide. Chalice is predominantly a way of countering spells with converted mana cost one, which encompasses a large number of key spells in the format- it is nearly always set to one counter. Blood Moon is the second prison piece and it simply nerfs non basic lands and turns them into mountains, forcing the opponent to fetch Basic lands early on if they can or risk being horribly colour screwed.
The deck obviously avoids running 1cc spells, so Lightning Bolt and Path to Exile do not make it in favour of 2cc options. Boards that get out of hand are reset by anti-creature sweepers.
The deck uses a consistent manabase with relatively few fetches and a large number of Plains. Temple of Triumph is a four of here (as it is in almost every RW control list) as deck manipulation is at a premium.
Wincons come via planeswalkers' ultimates, and better opponents scooping when they know they are going to lose game one
These are essential lock pieces, found in every Planeswalker control build.
This is the Planeswalker that is always found as a playset.
She comes as standard with one of these.....
The core parts of the mana base are discussed below, and the sweepers, whilst core are discussed in the flexible section, as their number varies from build-to-build.
The deck will run 24-25 land (an average of 24.6 from the lists that I have recorded).
Temple of Triumph is a four of, as filtering is at a premium. Fetches are surprisingly few for those who are new to the deck, the main aim being to get white before any Blood Moon shenanigans.
Basic plains typically number 9, although some lists run more.
I have not seen a list without Simian Spirit Guide acceleration.
Gemstone Caverns has been suggested as another potential source of acceleration on the draw, and has been widely adopted, but is not but not universal.
Sweepers will be present in some quantity, typically between four and six cards, and the basic choices are Anger of the Gods and at 4cc Wrath of God , although I have seen well-placed lists online using inferior versions such as Day of Judgement.
Pinpoint removal normally comes in the form of two instants and some enchantments.
Stony Silence
This nails Affinity and Tron, slows Ad Nauseam or any other deck using lots of mana rocks. One of the most powerful cards in Modern boards. Rest in Peace
Hits Goyf, Snapcaster, any flashback or Dredge spell, and, of course, Dredge, Living End, the "Grishoalbrand" reanimation deck variants and all the Melira tricks et al. All star card. Timely Reinforcements
Life and blockers for just 3 mana , this is a great anti-aggro card. Ravenous Trap More bin hate aimed squarely at Dredge. As Dredge decks decrease in number this is the first one to be cut. Boil Anti blue weapon of choice, it helps force things through when cast at the end of their turn, when Jeskai is on the rise these are strong. Sudden Shock
Anti Infect card, as that deck is dead-ish post ban so these are not seen too often, although they do stop infinite combos with Devoted Druid. Leyline of Sanctity
This all star helps protects you and planeswalkers from the opponents' direct damage spells, protects hands from targeted effects and has other fringe applications such as not allowing Gifts Ungiven to be played. Crumble to Dust Anti Tron card. Celestial Purge Self-explanatory card that exiles a lot of irritants in the format, including Nahiri in the mirror. Spellskite Helps protect permanents and redirects opponents' pump/removal spells.
If this is not what you are looking for, plenty of other off-the-wall choices that could be made or have featured in odd lists are available a section at the end of the primer, and you can check the other two sections for ideas.
I won't go into too much detail here, Modern has way too many matches too cover, and if people are expecting to take this to GPT or FNM events they are not going to be playing exclusively tier one decks. Feel free to discuss specific match-ups in the thread. If someone wants to write a match by match guide for 20-30 decks you could see at an LGS then they can do so and I will include it.
In general Gx tron is not the easy match some people perhaps expect at first glance- you don't finish quickly, and they can out control practically anything with a late game big play. Once they clear the board of Blood Moon after meandering to 7 or 8 "mountains" they can go to town with their mega mana. Fast combo generally that does not involve creaures, such as Ad Nauseam is very challenging without weakening other matches. Some matches such as BGx or Bant Eldrazi depend on seeing certain cards early, whilst any deck heavy on counterspells that you do not disrupt early can potentially beat you by denying you key pieces whilst applying their own pressure.
Eldra-Tron is a different beast entirely, and should be treated as an aggro deck.
Decks that this deck does best against are the ones that Chalice and Moon are most effective against- Infect (now sadly lamented) and Death Shadow decks being obvious on both counts. Todd Stevens had some success against Dredge and other big format players. Burn is unlikely to be able to keep up with your lifegain and is very vulnerable to Chalice, Affinity is an aggro deck and this deck deals well with such decks. Some go wide decks like Merfolk have Vial and a large number of basic lands, making the Moon and Chalice parts less than stellar there, but in general aggressive decks are the easiest.
I have added Khaos Knight69's more detailed guide below.
Burn - Favorable, Chalice at 1 shuts them down almost for good, Blood Moon is surprisingly relevant against Naya/Boros versions, 4x Helix and 2x Blessed Alliance are common for the mainboard, so 6 mainboard lifegain spells that also kill their attackers really help out.
Dredge - Even game 1, favorable game 2-3. Game 1 it really depends on what we draw and what they draw. Chalice at 1 shuts down Neonate and Faithless Looting. If you run Ensnaring Bridge mainboard you have a very favourable matchup here if you can draw it quick enough. Game 2 they board in Ancient Grudge but we board in Rest in Peace. Blood moon is great at shutting down their Life from the Loam's and any hardcasts they want to do on their creatures. Anger of the Gods is an all-star here and the fact that we mainboard 3 of them is probably the only reason we're "even" game 1.
Jund & Junk - Favourable game 1, favourable to even 2-3. Game 1 Blood Moon can be gg. Chalice at 1 shuts down their lightning bolts, IoK's and Thoughtseize. Blessed Alliance is great here because they will frequently only swing with 1 attacker. Game 2-3 Rest in Peace comes in, as does Leyline if you play it. They get a lot more resilient with Abrupt Decays, Maelstrom Pulses, and other sideboard tech, but its still definitely a favourable matchup.
Tron - Even to unfavourable game 1, unfavourable game 2 & 3. Despite what you may think of a deck running 4x Blood Moon mainboard, Tron is actually probably one of our toughest matchups. We have a tendency to durdle behind a Blood Moon and a Chalice until we draw into a wincon. Tron is happy to play that game, hitting land drops and filtering through their deck until they can just hardcast an Ugin and win. Land Destruction helps to stall, but what you really want is to get a Blood Moon down and follow it up with a relatively short clock like Nahiri.
Affinity - Even to Favourable game 1, favourable game 2 and 3. Game 1 if they are on the play you will lose unless you draw some boardwipes or they have a slow hand. Chalice is a tough call, because all of their game-ending threats are 2 drops, but lots of their "support" are 0 drops, and they play a fair bit of important 1 drops as well. Ultimately chalice at 1 is probably the best play, shutting down their Springleaf Drum, Signal Pest, and Galvanic Blast, however if you don't mind shutting down several of our own spells and can get there, Chalice at 2 shuts down Plating, Overseer, Ravager, Vault Skirge, basically half their deck. Blood Moon is great here, shutting off their Inkmoth/Blinkmoth. Game 2-3 Stony Silence comes in and makes the matchup much easier.
Infect - Favourable game 1, Favourable game 2 and 3. Infect is one of the decks we were basically made to beat. So long as you don't lose to mulligans, infect shouldn't be too tough. Chalice at 1 shuts down 3/4ths of the deck, Blood Moon shuts down Inkmoth, Blessed Alliance kills through every one of their protection spells. Game 2 and 3 should be about as easy, depending on what you board in.
Bant Eldrazi - Even to favourable game 1, even game 2 and 3. Eldrazi feels like a crapshoot. Sometimes your chalice at 1 shuts down their mana dorks and your blood moon shuts down their lands and they never see a Wastes and it's smooth sailing. Sometimes you land a turn 1 chalice at 1, turn 2 blood moon, and they still wipe the floor with you by hardcasting TKS and Reality Smasher on-curve with the help of their Talismans.
Ad Nauseum - Even to Unfavourable game 1, Unfavourable game 2 and 3. They play Lotus Bloom and Pentad prisms to get around Blood Moon, Chalice at 1 shuts down their draw spells and Angel's Grace but not Unlife. We don't really clock them or have hand disruption, so they can stockpile counters and whatnot until they are ready. Chalice at 0 isn't a terrible play here, shutting down their lotus blooms and pact of negations. Game 2 Leyline comes in (or Nevermore naming Lightning Storm and their only remaining wincon is Lab Maniac. Ultimately I'd peg this one as a tough matchup, because our Blessed Alliance and Lightning Helix don't really have good targets, Banishing Light/sorcery speed exile is too slow, and they can win around bridge
Grixis Delver - Favourable Game 1, Favourable Game 2 & 3. This should be easy. Chalice at 1 shuts down their Discard suite, their Lightning Bolts, and their Delvers. Blood Moon cripples their mana base, and they play less total threats than we play total answers.
Eldrazi Tron - Favourable Game 1, Favourable Game 2 & 3. Different from Bant Eldrazi in that they drop mana dorks for Chalice of the Void, and kill you with beatdown, Walking Balista, or Endbringer. The inclusion of Tron lands mean they run only 2 Wastes, which means a resolved Blood Moon can slow them down considerably. This is another matchup where Chalice is useless, and might warrant Path to Exile/Pithing Needle in your sideboard.
Jeskai Harbinger - Even to unfavourable Game 1, Even to unfavourable game 2 & 3. Blood Moon and Chalice are great here, but our clock is not. If they land a Nahiri, you need to interact with it in some way within 2 turns or you lose. That's not wonderful for our deck, as the only ways we have to deal with Nahiri are Lightning Helix (which is a stall), Chandra's +1 (which is a stall), or Banishing Light (which is an answer). Game 2 & 3 depend entirely on the version you run, generally speaking Ensnaring Bridge is an all-star in this matchup, shutting down their main wincons of Colonnade and Emrakul while Chalice shuts down their Bolts.
Merfolk - Even to unfavourable Game 1, Even Game 2 & 3. Game 1 sucks, Blood Moon shuts down Mutavaults annnd...thats it. Chalice at 1 slows them down by shutting off their Cursecatchers and Aether Vials (and vapor snags which don't affect us really) but that's it. Game 1 is winnable if you draw into enough removal and they don't draw into enough threats to keep up, but it's tough. Game 2 and 3 are much easier if you play Ensnaring Bridge. If you don't, stuff in all your board wipes and all your removal and hope for a good draw.
Suicide Zoo - Easy game 1, easy game 2 & 3. Easy win here, regardless of the version you run. Blood Moon hoses them, Chalice at 1 hoses them, Ensnaring Bridge hoses them.
Lantern Control - Easy game 1, easy game 2 & 3. Lantern loses to Chalice at 1, and their primary wincon of milling you to death loses to a maindeck Emrakul. Chandra will be the main wincon against them, as their MB Ensnaring Bridge stops Nahiri.
Mirror Match - Boros Prison - even game 1, even game 2 & 3. The weirdest mirror match I've played. Chalice is useless, Blood Moon is useless, Ensnaring Bridge is largely useless. Be prepared to sideboard out 8 cards and be bewildered as to what you should sideboard in aside from Leylines. Leyline of Sanctity is an all-star here. If you run a sideboard that swaps out Chalice for useful 1-drops like Path or Pithing Needle, this is one of the best match-ups for that plan.
RG Breach / RG Scapeshift / RG Valakut - Favourable game 1, favourable game 2 & 3. Chalice doesn't do much here, but blood moon shuts down the Valakut game plan and Ensnaring Bridge shuts down their TTB wincons. Game 2 and 3 you can bring in Leyline and even Ruined Halo as sideboard tech. A resolved Blood Moon means that their only other game plan is to kill you with a breached Emrakul or a Primeval Titan. Breached Emrakul is very tough to deal with (although Runed Halo and Stasis Snare are both tools in our colours that we can use), Prime time is a 6/6 trampler but with a Blood Moon out his fangs aren't quite so long (no fetching Valakuts for you).
Grixis Control - Even to slightly unfavourable Game 1, even to slightly unfavourable game 2 & 3. Chalice at 1 shuts down their discard suite, their draw suite, and their lightning bolts. But that doesn't matter when they can Delve out a Tasigur and K Command your Ensnaring Bridges. Control will always be a tough match up for this deck. That said, if we can land a threat against them after controlling the board and building the prison of Blood Moon + Chalice, they will struggle to stop it.
Cheerios: Even to favourable game 1, Favourable game 2 and 3
Cheerios is the newest combo deck to hit the field thanks to Sram, Senior Edificer acting as Puresteel Paladin 5-8. Chalice set at 0 shuts down their entire deck, Blood Moon shuts down nearly all of their lands. The danger in the deck is it's explosiveness. They can achieve a turn 2 kill fairly easily, just slam down a paladin or Sram and start dropping 0-drop equipments (thus the name Cheerios).
Reanimator: Unfavourable game 1, unfavourable game 2 and 3
Reanimator seeks to put a Griselbrand into play as soon as possible. They manage tons of extra activations by packing 4x Nourishing Shoal and 4x Worldspine Wurm into their lists to chain together activations, before using mana accelerants like Simian Spirit Guide and Desperate Ritutal to breach out something to kill you with. The best tech against this deck is Rest in Peace to shut down their yard-based strategy, and Rule of Law style effects to stop them from comboing off. Even with both in play, they can still win via Through the Breach.
UW Control and Variants: unfavourable game 1, unfavourable game 2 and 3
Basically any non-greedy control deck will be a tough matchup for us. We rely on Blood Moon and Chalice to shut down control as much as we can, and even when Blood Moon hits a ton of their lands it's still an uneven matchup.
Hatebears: Even to unfavourable game 1, even to unfavourable game 2 and 3.
Hatebears plays a bunch of 2 drop 2/2s with "prison" style effects on them. They will try to lock down your ability to search, to play non-creature spells, etc. Chalice at 2 shuts them down, but as that costs 4 mana it's a bit of a tall order. We play plenty of boardwipes and that helps the match-up considerably, but it's still an interesting one that will keep you on your toes.
Abzan Company: Favourable game 1, Favourable game 2 and 3. Abzan CoCo seeks to win via value creature beats, or by comboing out for infinite life/infinite damage with Viscera Seer, Melira/Anazfenza, and Kitchen Finks/Murderous Redcaps. We beat them by resolving a Blood Moon. Chalice at 1 stops their dorks and seers. Save exile effects for finks while using helices on their other creatures and you should be fine.
Bloomless Titan: Favourable game 1, Favourable game 2 and 3. Blood Moon is GG vs this deck. Chalice at 1 shuts down their serum visions, amulet, and ancient stirrings. Chalice at 0 shuts down their pacts, and that's that. If you don't have Blood Moon out and they play Asuza, Lost but Seeking, chances are you'll lose that turn. If you don't, kill Asuza/play a blood moon or lose the following turn.
This next one shows a bit more innovation in the board, and is the only one I have seen without 4 SSG. Note it runs main deck Leyline of Sanctity (which can really hurt some decks), and just 3 Nahiri.
Memory Lapse, original creator of this thread, regularly plays RW lockdown and he makes a lot of videos. An example from 2016 is here, many others can be found on his you tube channel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMo8eK0jRI4
This is variation on the Planeswalker control lists. It uses Bridges and thus avoids Nahiri/Emrakul tech. Using Bridges will give a stronger match vs. some decks such as Merfolk and Grishoalbrand, but it makes winning harder, and if you don't include Nahiri you lose filtering too. You are more likely to see sideboard cards like Leyline or Rest in Peace maindeck in this type of list as people look for an edge. There is plenty of scope here to experiment with the Boros toolbox, many different iterations have done well historically.
The manabase is basically the same as for Nahiri, and the core cards- Chalice, Spirit Guides and Blood Moon are also the same. Needless to say, four Bridge are also core.
The list of Planeswalker is as for Sun and Moon, with Ajani being very common in these lists. Chandra, Torch of Defiance is a stellar card in this type of deck, which needs to draw cards in those grindy matches.
Additionally Elspeth, Knight Errant has been seen in some of these from time-to-time, although her +3+3 conflicts horribly with Bridge. Even Koth of the Hammer has been sighted, but you have to bend the deck towards mountains. Leyline of Sanctity often makes the main deck in Bridge Control, whilst other traditional board cards often do too.
These aside, the main thing is Assemble the Legion is often used in these as it does not conflict with Bridge, and it wins very, very quickly once it gets going. You will always have a card in hand to allow attacks for twenty plus with tokens.
Bridge also gives rise to Bottled Cloister from time to time, an old combo that protects your hand from discard but allows you to have a full hand on your turn.
The removal is largely the same package as Planeswalker control, as is the side, although you tend to see more variation here- Nevermore and similar cards are often used in these decks to help fight combo, and Runed Halo gets a fair chunk of play - its versatile and can hose some decks. Wear//Tear is likely to be seen in the board if you do not run Nahiri.
Largely speaking the match ups follow a similar pattern to Planeswalker Control.
There are some differences.
Bridges make for stronger performances against reanimation of fatties and decks using Through the Breach tech from the board. Merfolk, Elves and Bant Eldrazi are easier too. Affinity can sneak past the Bridge with its 0 power men, which it cannot do vs the extra removal of PW control. BG-X matches are harder especially if they play things like Maelstrom Pulse, whilst matches up against Grixis can go south more easily due to it running artifact kill main deck via Kolaghan's Command.
Note this list runs a bit of landkill as well as Moon effects.
And uncle Frank is back at it here in 2017, though I don't one hundred percent agree with his summation, and I would like to have seen Assemble the Legion in the list. https://www.channelfireball.com/videos/modern-moonday-rw-prison/
Plenty more are out there showing a fair degree of innovation.
(3) Landkill
Landkill decks do exactly as it says on the tin. They blow up land, and Tax opponents. They share the Chalice tech, may run Spirit Guides or Gemstone Caverns and use the same pinpoint removal. They have often bled into the Bridge Control lists. Planeswalkers can be played here, but if you include the Tax Suppression Field to tax fetch heavy decks they cannot. Ones using Magus of the Tabernacle and Taxes are often referred to as Stax, after the Legacy deck. The deck is sometimes known as Ponza, too, especially if not running many taxes, named after Landkill lists of the late 1990's, though it shares little in common with the original.
The core of the landkill will involve Boom//Bust, combined with 4 Flagstones of Trokair. These allow t2 landkill and mana fixing in one, potentially.
As for taxes we have Ghostly Prison and Magus of the Tabernacle is pretty standard, Magus is a huge toughness dude who gives all creatures a static upkeep of 1. For those at REL, if they draw a card and try to pay- call a judge- who will place the creature in the bin as the default action. The trigger is given to all creatures, it is the creatures' controller who has to remember it, not you.
As for other creatures, Goblin Darkdwellers allowed you to play either side of Boom//Bust until Ammonket, and is normally there in more recent lists. The rules quirk of being able to play both sides is well-known, most judges know it, but the rule change on 23 April 17 means that it no longer allows a cheeky 'geddon. Aven Mindcensor normally makes the main, as it is pseudo landkill often. Supression Field is core in Stax decks, but not in other landkill decks.
Here we have basically any of the cards mentioned to date in the previous sections. As you can see from the decklist section, this is not a well-defined deck, and is wide open for deckbuilders to get to work. A good rule of thumb is to have 10 pieces of potential disruption turn 2- Boom Bust being 4 of them. You can choose to include Suppression Field but not Planeswalkers, or can go down the Planeswalker route, whilst Chalice and Blood Moon have been seen in some landkill lists, especially Chalice. Some lists use Spirit Guides to get 3 cc Landkill early.
The latest Thalia might well have a place too, but it is easier to kill than Ghostly Prison.
Crucible of Worlds allows recursive landkill via GQ until they run out of basics and is very powerful if left unchecked, though GQ won't happen too much till late game due to Suppression Field.
A number of landkill creatures exist too, they are a little slow but flexible. Fulminator Mage and Avalanche Rider are the two you are most likely to see, although both are rare.
Note that Rest In Peace stops the Boom Bust-Flagstones tricks and Crucible, so Grafdigger's cage is likely as a board card, despite conflicts with Chalice.
The mana base is as you would expect, 4 Temple of Triumph, 4 Flagstones, Sacred Foundry and not too many fetches, none if using Suppression Field as you probably should be.
S field hits
Every fetchland in most decks
Every planeswalker
Any manlands e.g. Mutavault in tribal decks like Merfolk, Inkmoth in Infect
Grishoalbrand's big guys' activated ability suite
Lightning Storm in Ad Nauseam
Ravager and Plating etc. in affinity
Sac outlets in Melira combo
Kiki in Kiki Combo
Vial and Cursecatcher in Merfolk
Vial in hatebears/BW Eldrazi
Map and O stone in Tron (which is an issue if you are blowing up their land)
Engineered Explosives
Fulminator Mage and all the cycling in Living End
Equipment
I will leave the board discussion as it will very much depend on your list, but the usual suspects still apply.
This obviously depends on your list, but in general you should be beating Gx Tron and any greedy mana lists, although it won't be a walkover. All but the fastest aggro is relatively easy. Fair decks with a less greedy mana base are very challenging, it depends simply on how greedy they are. Fastest Aggro is fine as long as your list is not too chunky, Top Control is weak unless you are playing Suppression Field main.
Ad Nauseam is pretty easy, especially if you use Suppression Field. Anything with lots of counterspells in is going to be marginal at best- U tron is hard, for example.
This list is an online one that surfaced just after Nahiri. It looks like a hybrid of all three strategies.
Here is my Suppression Field list. I made the semi of a small WMCQ with this list, which has top 8'd a medium sized 80 player event too. The oust in the board would be Blessed Alliance now.
There are a few variants kicking about that might be appropriate for thread discussion.
A well-known variant on all three strategies is to use Kiki-Jiki, Wall of Omens and finish a la Splinter Twin.
One Nahiri variant by Steven Livingston did this in an SCG in Nov 2016.
Another is Angel Moon, discussed here https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/instant-deck-tech-angel-moon
Innovation is welcome, the thread is for deckbuilders and people who just want to pick up an established list.
"Why have you not included X?"
Answer- PM me if you think it should be included, but check the whole Primer first. New cards are added to Flex or Core if they settle in and are widely adopted for a period of time. Speculation e.g. "this spoiled card will be Core please add it" will not get me changing the primer.
"Can I put my deck/question here?"
We will direct you if it is in the wrong thread, feel free to post. In general if it has vials and hatebears in then the Death and Taxes thread is probably right. If it has counterspells and blue then it is probably not us either. Tiny splashes of other colours- that is ok. Obscure threads exist for RG landkill, for example, involving Arbor Elf et al, or for Enchantment control, Enduring Ideal and other lockdown strategies, so if your deck is out of place no offence will be taken and you will be directed there.
This is a list of cards that have been used historically and not mentioned thus far, feel free to add your suggestions to me or to ignore.
I have avoided obvious playable cards that are 1cc such as Surgical Extraction or Relic of Progenitus, we know that in four Chalice lists these are problematical, but they could obviously be played in a non Chalice list.
Outpost Siege Used in some Bridge Control lists Word of Seizing made the board of an SCG Planeswalker Control list. Karma Surprisingly legal board card that has made the odd Bridge Control board. Oblivion Ring Day of Judgement Seen in MTGO lists, inferior to Wrath. Pyroclasm 2cc sweeper Storage Matrix used in the odd Landkill Stax lists Blind obedience seen in the odd Bridge control list Trinisphere from the days when Storm and Cascade was a player Rule of Law Ditto, although the effect is good against Tron Dampening matrix Tectonic Edge one of many utility lands, was big at the start of Modern Mystifying Maze ditto, made the odd Bridge control list as defence vs. affinity 0 power dudes and Ravager's Modular ability World Queller Historical Landkill card, too expensive for Modern. Magus of the Moon Hatebear seen as Moon 5/6 in Bridge lists Thalia, Heretic Cathar Potentially a player in Landkill
Plenty of other white hatebears exist that might make innvovative lists Sanctimony anti burn, little seen as it is too narrow Bottled Cloister Used in some Bridge lists, could be used in others. Wildfire seen often in the older lockdown lists from 2012/13. Magma Jet seen in the odd list does a bit of manipulation but is relatively low powered as removal Peace of Mind seen in Bridge lists. Trading Post not seen in Bridge lists, but found in Legacy Stax (that also hide behind bridges) where it is a real swiss army knife- it compares favorably to Peace of Mind for my 50 cents.
Thanks.......hoping we don't lose our long term contributors now the thread has been re-worked and our original 30 pages of discussion has gone......
I have tried to make the stax section cover both recurring stax style strategies and landkill/stax hybrids, and have worked the cards into a format similar to boros/bridge versions. I did not just cut and paste from that section, I reworked a lot of the comments that needed it as their usefulness often depends on the strategy. I also added new cards like sceptre of dominance , and made sure the card tags were present in that section.
We also have room to expand the discussion onto more critter orientated versions as required.
I thought the Twin style finish list deserved a shout of its own and took the liberty of adding it to the primer at the end.
It nicely demonstrates that you can be lockdown with a combo finish. I would love some extra matchup data/discussion on that style of deck too. Would be ahppy to include it.
For me primarily talking about landkill-stax version, the biggest problem I still have is the two PWs being killed too easily vs aggro, although Gideon can be a house. Assemble the legion is superb, best finisher in the deck for me. The two pw slots are up for grabs, perhaps. If i can get those slots right I may get the deck to a ptq in june.... The sceptres and signets have really solved a lot of problems, and the deck is way less binary than it was. Mana issues are very rare now, and flexibility is essential in card choices. Aura of silence really patches up a lot of holes post board.
The bridge version can protect their PWs really well with bridge- it would be lovely if wizards could give us another bridge or ghostly effect. I think we may be waiting awhile for them to come up with modern quality prison cards......
I've been playing this almost stock Stax list from the OP all day and it's been surprisingly amazing and also a ton of fun to play. The only change I made so far is -1 World Queller for +1 Wildfire. Like the article that the deck is from said, he went for 3 Quellers and 2 Wildfires because of the popularity of Lilliana but Jund's died down a little since then and even then I'm not all that big of a fan of Queller in the first place, it feels pretty slow and clunky.
What do you guys think about maybe moving 2 Chalice to the SB and replacing 2 Queller with something else to free up 4 slots. I'm thinking 2 MD Pyros might help but I'm not sure. Played against a lot of GW hatebears, Faeries, Merfolk, Pod, RB aggro, 8rack, Jund and a bunch of others I forgot today and I think this could be a really good deck with a few tweaks.
Edit: Trying this out and just beat RDW 2/0 with it.
Has anybody tested Akki Blizzard-Herder? I play him a little in casual Stax and I wonder if he will be playable in competitive game. It seems to be something like Boom on a stick. Isn't it?
Thanks! Interesting suggestion- and I thought the primer had everything......;)
Never actually tried it- sacrifice circumvents darksteel citadel for sure, a downside and an upside of course- but it could work wonders with the each player sacrifices a permanent card whose name escapes me... it is probably a bit too situational for competitive lists- because you opponent can control the effect as well as you- but it may be one of those build around cards.....
I need the bolts and paths to avoid the early preassure. Spellskite and wall of Omens is so good vs aggro. The only thing that F***s me is flying men like Celestial Colonnade.
Yesterday i had a weekly modern event in a local store. I was third of nine.
Round 1 vs UW control. 0-2
It was a long match. First game he killed me with a Vendilion Clique protected with counters and Snapcaster, last lifes he killed me with Celestial Colonnade. Second game, 3rd turn blood moon and he got trouble. I control the game with ghostly prision and planeswalkers, but he won life with Sphinx's Revelation. Finally he removed from the game the prision, planeswalkers, and Assemble the Legion with Detention Sphere, Celestial Purge and return permanents to my hand with Cryptic Command. He attacked and won.
Round 2 vs Tokens/Martyr Life. 2-0
Easy games, Ghostly prision avoid the creatures, i exiled twice Serra Ascendant with Path to Exile. I restart table with Anger of the Gods but my creatures survived. I finished with Baneslayer Angel. Second game was easy too, especial mention: I used ratchet bomb to destroy Honor of the pure, then i used Chandra, the Firebrand ultimate to kill 3 tokens 1/1, 1 Soul's Attendant, and 1 Ranger of Eos. I finished with Batterskull and Elspeth.
Round 3 vs RUw Twin. 2-1,
Favorable match because I have Ghostly Prision and Path in main. First game was impossible to him do the combo but attacked with Celestial Colonnade, killing my Planeswalkers and then me. Second game: -4 Lightning helix, -4 lightning Bolt, -2 Anger of the Gods. +3 Combust, +3 Blood Moon (only solution vs Colonnade), +2 Wear/Tear, +1 Defense Grid, +1 Ratchet Bomb, GG for me. Third game i put a Ratchet Bomb with 4 tokens(no 3 because destroy my enchantments) and he cant play twin, he used kiki but i exiled it. I finished with Assamble the Legion.
Round 4 vs Merfolks. 1-1
First game was easy for me, anger of the gods killed 3 merforlk, then assemble the legion an win. Second game was soooo long, my walls and tokens blocked all the time, my focus was killing the lords to avoid islandwalking because 2 Spreading Seas was on my lands. Finally he won me protecting one lord with a counter.
A familar set of matches for those who know the old thread- thanks for the report- your deck is a bit less bridge based than boros bridge lockdown, but seems to share many of the same traits- a strong, almost impregnable aggro match up (and a faster beatdown clock too), a great twin match and a harder time vs control, so the report is pretty much in keeping with what is to be expected.
My only suggestion would be guttural responses in the board (it is awesomely strong vs cryptic and rev'n), and perhaps shave a path or two- you rarely want to path early on anyway, and with your skites and prison the twin matchup should be easy- there is not much else to path in the format that has to be pathed there and then- especially when you run anger, bolt and helix. A couple of flexi slots might not go amiss, or even blood moon main. Boil is always good vs control too, although better in landkill it can still pull the rug from under them.......
In my experience there is a sliding graph of aggro and control- the more landkill type stuff that goes in the easier the control matchup gets, and the harder the aggro.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
Nice to see my decklist on this site! I haven't worked much with that deck lately, but great to see the community working on it.
Keep the work on guys!
Thank you for letting us use it- and for noticing.
It is still going strong............
Online the majority of rw lockdown decks have tended towards bridge based control. Stax is a bit rarer- it seemed like a natural list to use for the site.
I am not sure the format can justify world queller at the moment at least outside of lists running chalice to stop path/vapor snag. Queller is one of my fave cards ever, but at five mana if he gets bounced/pathed it is ugly time. At least magus' ability kicks in during their upkeep- meaning if they are tapped out when you cast him you get to restrict them no matter. I do think there are valid lockdown decks out there- blood moon can be very strong, our planeswalkers are at the better end of the spectru, prison/magus is still fantastic, and boom//bust flagstone or citadel is strong play t2, plus we are the colour of splinter twin and the best board cards in the format.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
Report- following the 3 and a draw I took the same list to a fnm.
R1- griselbrand reanimator/ttb 1-1
This was my deck I loaned out to someone who had been playing their own list I believe.
Mine is well tuned.
G1 I am on the draw.
A t2 boom gets me some traction.
Resolved t3 stone rain and ghostly prison buys me yet more time, and the win is relatively facile.
Game 2- similar plays- I bring in aura of silence over o-ring- it does the same job-killing prisms - mana source denial, but makes the prisms cost more- although they sunburst for more as a consequence. I have him to 11 life and he manages to get out grisselbrand at the cost of his prism mana- with 1 card in hand, tapped out. I have gideon in hand. I tap it with sceptre of dominance. He is tapped out and spins the wheel - drawing to 4 life- getting the fury of the hoard and red cards. He repeats again and again. A resolved Gideon next turn would have won it for me.
G3 time is called- the curse of 40 min rounds. I think I was slight fave for the game where we were, hard to tell.
R2 storm 2-0
I go off on landkill game one- oringing an ascension at one point. I board in 3 leylines, 3 rest in peaces, 3 aura of silences, 2 guttural responses and 2 boil.
I get a t0 leyline, a t2 landkill a t3 runed, t4 rest in peace in peace, more landkill and 2 auras of silence and a response in hand. He finishes on 2 lands........
R3 I get to play my GW hatebears- it took its last 20 player event 5-0, and is a really well tuned list. Again it is loaned out by me to benefit the eve. 0-1nt at the expense of err, me. 0-1
Here is what happened....
I get to 3 land, have Gideon, assemble the legion and a magus in hand- with a couple of landkills to kick off with. 5 turns later I have the same 3 land on the table, 3 magus- in hand, 2 assemble in hand, a Gideon in hand and an ajani - in hand...( Oh, and a ghostly prison in the bin. Game 2, sir? One land would have wrecked him with those magi....
G 2 he gets an early sword of w an p, and is walking away with it- I have boarded out orings like a muppet. He forgets to pay a magus bar bill and I am back in it. I have to go to 1 life and bust in a sub optimal way. I take ages to recover my RW mana. Several times he nearly wins but prison keeps him out. I get him to 6 with 4 points of damage on the table, and curse the fact I failed to hit him earlier with a mana land.
I sow the game up-with landkill and prisons- but time is called and it is one nil to him......
Had he not paid a magus bill he would have had the game easily- unusual as it is one of my best matchups.
R4 USA control- all spells almost.
I get G1 on the draw- burying him with t2/3 landkill and repeated doeses- killing his resolved Ajani after a struggle- but win beacause assemble the legion sticks......
G2 I scoop after he gets good control- I am one mana short on a mana leaked boil that would have left him on 2 land......(
G3 We play- I go nuts on landkill from t2 and resolve sceptres and Ajani I think- usual story. He gets an ajani which is dealt with twice. Time is called but he is on 2 land, nothing else, 1 color and few cards in hand to my 12 land...he scoops as he knows he is out of the game, rather graciously. A quick deck check reveals the game was indeed mine v soon- there is no way back from that level of landkill, and his bin was devoid of card draw.....
Thoughts I am 5 wins, 2 draws and a loss with the current build.
The 2 PWs are still dodgy as hell- they often seem to be win more or do nothing. Assemble is superb. I want to try blind obedience and shrine of burning rage instead of the pwlkrs- if it does not work I will run one more assemble the legion no 3 and another runed halo. I still want more t2 action though. Sceptres are worth their weight in gold.
I have mulliganed 5 times in total in 8 matches- 3 in the hatebear match. The mana is nets are superb- way better than it was, signets are great and the scrying temples of triumph are really good, despite my initial fears about them - I can use more fetches, but at the moment I prefer to keep them to a minimum - I have flagstone fetch as it is.....
I've been playing this almost stock Stax list from the OP all day and it's been surprisingly amazing and also a ton of fun to play. The only change I made so far is -1 World Queller for +1 Wildfire. Like the article that the deck is from said, he went for 3 Quellers and 2 Wildfires because of the popularity of Lilliana but Jund's died down a little since then and even then I'm not all that big of a fan of Queller in the first place, it feels pretty slow and clunky.
What do you guys think about maybe moving 2 Chalice to the SB and replacing 2 Queller with something else to free up 4 slots. I'm thinking 2 MD Pyros might help but I'm not sure. Played against a lot of GW hatebears, Faeries, Merfolk, Pod, RB aggro, 8rack, Jund and a bunch of others I forgot today and I think this could be a really good deck with a few tweaks.
Edit: Trying this out and just beat RDW 2/0 with it.
-1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Anger of the Gods / Firesprout
V sorry to miss this - chalice is really a legacy card- so much in modern costs more than one, unlike legacy- and by the time you hit 4 to make it have an impact they often have board presence- ........
abrupt decay is factor too. I feel it is a board card at best.
I think with boom bust it is a 4 of with lots of other land destruction, or it is a two of as an 'geddon effect. Running it with wildfire never worked for me- they often did the same thing effectively at least when using bust. I known the original stax lists well and I agree queller is clunky- the original article said the deck does not want stone rain- which I feel is both wrong and right- it either wants a bucketful of them and concentrate on taxing or none.....
I think shattering spree is a total and utter waste of two valuable board slots, btw. It is so narrow- Vs affinity for example- you get halo for hard to deal with etched champion, prison to slow them down en masse and o-ring for equipment. You can have wrath effects, queller naming artifact every turn, etc. All the tools are there to hurt it. It is a low land deck and vulnerable to mana disruption. Aura of silence is a *much* better board card, assuming you do not/can't use stony silence- it being a selective tax and a disenchant, and being useful vs a whole host of other decks - twin, boggles, ad nauseam and other lotus bloom/prism decks, eggs, tokens (there are lots of targets) and many other decks. It also stops the all in ravager kill route. We need so much flexability, and spree just does not have it.....
In every version of the deck I have beaten affinity regularly- with a good percentage- if you find yourself losing to it a few tweaks should fix it.
Has anybody tested Akki Blizzard-Herder? I play him a little in casual Stax and I wonder if he will be playable in competitive game. It seems to be something like Boom on a stick. Isn't it?
Thanks! Interesting suggestion- and I thought the primer had everything......;)
Never actually tried it- sacrifice circumvents darksteel citadel for sure, a downside and an upside of course- but it could work wonders with the each player sacrifices a permanent card whose name escapes me... it is probably a bit too situational for competitive lists- because you opponent can control the effect as well as you- but it may be one of those build around cards.....
Sounds good, Rogue. I have been down that route a bit, especially with vial and d and t style. Check out the primer section on twin finishes.
On a separate note, as people may know from my last two reports my latest version of stax-landkill is 5W, 2D (bloody 40 min rounds), 1L.
Having lost to my own loaned hatebear GW deck it was easy to get the same player to play it for an hour last night after draft, just to look again at the match. As I suspected the result were in my favour, winning the games on play and draw.
I have finally dropped all planeswalkers, as I kept finding gideon to be either win more, a fog vs affinity, or a non win con vs USA control, if they had white or an uncracked fetch. It is assemble no 3.
Ajani has always been better- it may come back, or I may try a solitary bridge. For now it is a ratchet bomb- utility and another t2 play. Not sure about my tokens match, for one, want another t2 play for another.
Sceptre of dominance kept a baneslayer off me from a naked board position for ages in one game-10 turns- whilst I built up impenetrable defenses and started ghostly taxing/landkill.
Had it been thrun I would have been in trouble.
In another game on the play I hit t2 and 3 landkill, t4 magus, t5 sceptre......:)
The sceptre really is ideal.
For now I have gone to 3 assemble the legion- which I never realised is often defensive in the first 2-3 turns- making chumpers before more prison cards come down. Deciding whether to keep an army of tokens with a magus down or not can swing it from 3/4 damage to 9-10.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
There any number of different evolutionary directions where Waste Not can go. Would it be O.K. if we take it out of the wrapper, and play with it for a little while? If and when it falls apart, we collectively promise that you can say, "I told you so".
After reading these new thread I would like to post my list again for consideration. I have little issues with blue decks game 2-3 and game 1 goes either way.
With 3 Boil (used in responce to their spell on the end of your turn works just fine) 2 Defense Grid (an early Grid turn 1 or 2 usually locks them out for you to play the rest of your board control), 2 Combust (bye bye colonade, clique, exarch or pestermite!) and an additional Spellskite, games 2 and 3 are usually easy vs RWU. VS other blue decks I just don't need the spellskite.
I saw mentioned by Mark "chalice is really a legacy card- so much in modern costs more than one, unlike legacy- and by the time you hit 4 to make it have an impact they often have board presence- ........
abrupt decay is factor too. I feel it is a board card at best." But honestly Chalice is a powerhouse in modern. 8rack, Infect, Affinity, Bogles, RDW, Storm are all great examples. But just about EVERY modern deck plays 1 drops; Jund-ten+ 1 drops, Tron-sixteen 1 drops, Delver.deck- sixteen+ 1 drops, Merfolk twelve+ 1 drops. The list goes on and on, and just like Defense Grid can be played turn 1 with a spirit guild... infact my favorite turn 1 is land+spirit guide+ chalice for 1. That's also why I don't play bolt or path... and have had just about no issues doing so.
There any number of different evolutionary directions where Waste Not can go. Would it be O.K. if we take it out of the wrapper, and play with it for a little while? If and when it falls apart, we collectively promise that you can say, "I told you so".
On chalice - its all relative.... I am simply pointing out it is not the nuts it is in legacy.
Legacy chalice at one happens off the sollands or moxen t1 (so in other words if chalice is in your opening hand you will have 8+ lands that allow it to be dropped t1, plus 4 moxen- i.e. often)
In modern the only way I can think of it coming down t1 is SSg, in an affinity deck, or gemstone luck counter nonsense.
In both formats they can always drop a relevant turn one play if they are on the play, the difference is more often in modern on the draw we would not be able to cast it till they have had a second bite at the one drop cherry- enough to set up a tron deck, say, or for their hand disruption to go off in a black deck (not that I worry about tron with my landkill). The odds of both guide and chalice being in the opening 7 +1 are not that high compared to the solland/mox legacy suite.
I played legacy stax yesterday [went 4-1] and saw chalice @ 1 t1 on the play- sweep, or t1 chalice t2 another play- sweep. There were a few chalices in the room for sure, and when they resolve people can be dead a turn later. That is the power level of the card in legacy. I guess in modern I am bit underwhelmed by it.
One of my *****es about the modern format is the lack of good one drops in d and t. Indeed one drop men in general.
Vial is great on the play- the one drop men for it really are pretty awful. D and T sometimes fails to play one drops sometimes aside from vial and path.
Generally mana dorks are good one drops in the format, as is the discard suite and some counterspells for non critters.
But the men are distinctly underwhelming to me (eg curse catcher sometimes failing to make merfolk-n speak to mfolk players and they hate having to run it), at least now that drs has gone....goblin guides, dryad militants (please no), figures of destiny, one drop sac outlets. Not much in general man wise.
The blue cantrips suck (horray!), and even the rituals cost more than one, leaving chalice at one to kill off enemy mana dorks, and removal spells, which are high quality. There are some decks like martyr, delver and infect that it really hurts of course. And plenty it interacts with positively. But t1 chalice- scoop is just not on the cards.
I must admit I would have a hard time blind casting chalice at one of SSG in an environment that is abrupt decay heavy. I certainly would not count jund or rock's one drops in the calculation- the 4 abrupt decay and pulses see to that- the format is rife with flexi removal- orings, pridemages, toolbox men etc. Stopping decks casting a chunk of their cards ( but often not their first one or two 1cc drops) for a while from t2 and more often t3 is just very different to stopping nearly every card in a deck- including gamewinning tutors and combo pieces and a superb maniplation of libraries- often vs deck having no way of removing the chalice.
Final point- when quoting how many one drops they have it is worth not counting vapor snag, path etc. for obvious reasons....
note - I do own fetches, I am choosing to minimise them- this is due to the requirement of running flagstones in a very red/white deck- -they needs plains, and fetches rapidly diminish the plain count, making them a really bad draw late on. >=3 fetches rapidly deplete the flagstone usefulness, as shown by many events- in a deck that goes long this is important. I am even considering another cip temple- the scry is really useful.
Legacy chalice at one happens off the sollands or moxen t1 (so in other words if chalice is in your opening hand you will have 8+ lands that allow it to be dropped t1, plus 4 moxen- i.e. often)
In modern the only way I can think of it coming down t1 is SSg, in an affinity deck, or gemstone luck counter nonsense.
"solland" is that Sol Ring + Land? and Moxen being Mox Jet etc? Those cards are not legal in Legacy...
In both formats they can always drop a relevant turn one play if they are on the play, the difference is more often in modern on the draw we would not be able to cast it till they have had a second bite at the one drop cherry- enough to set up a tron deck, say, or for their hand disruption to go off in a black deck (not that I worry about tron with my landkill). The odds of both guide and chalice being in the opening 7 +1 are not that high compared to the solland/mox legacy suite.
Tron can cast map turn 1, then use it turn 2, that doesn't always set them up for the win. They still might need 1 or 2 tron lands, they might need a wincon also. What gets them there is being able to crack Star and Sphere to draw, and Stirrings to get land or wincon and extra maps to get Ugin. ALL of these are halted after a Chalice for 1 in dropped
Generally mana dorks are good one drops in the format, as is the discard suite and some counterspells for non critters.
But the men are distinctly underwhelming to me (eg curse catcher sometimes failing to make merfolk-n speak to mfolk players and they hate having to run it), at least now that drs has gone....goblin guides, dryad militants (please no), figures of destiny, one drop sac outlets. Not much in general man wise.
The blue cantrips suck (horray!), and even the rituals cost more than one, leaving chalice at one to kill off enemy mana dorks, and removal spells, which are high quality. There are some decks like martyr, delver and infect that it really hurts of course. And plenty it interacts with positively. But t1 chalice- scoop is just not on the cards.
I don't remember complaining about turn 1 creatures... or even turn 1 spells. Chalice for 1 makes future 1CMC cards dead, it's that simple. RWU Control, ok now you can't bolt snapcaster bolt for the win, or bolt my planswalker about to ultimate, etc, etc.
I must admit I would have a hard time blind casting chalice at one of SSG in an environment that is abrupt decay heavy. I certainly would not count jund or rock's one drops in the calculation- the 4 abrupt decay and pulses see to that- the format is rife with flexi removal- orings, pridemages, toolbox men etc. Stopping decks casting a chunk of their cards ( but often not their first one or two 1cc drops) for a while from t2 and more often t3 is just very different to stopping nearly every card in a deck- including gamewinning tutors and combo pieces and a superb maniplation of libraries- often vs deck having no way of removing the chalice.
I'm not going to NOT run Chalice because a single deck in the formate runs 4 Abrupt Decay and non of the other ones do, yet they ALL have 1CMC spells and a lot of modern decks have a lot of 1CMC spells. That would be backward logic, to not run chalice for that reason.
Final point- when quoting how many one drops they have it is worth not counting vapor snag, path etc. for obvious reasons....
I didn't count any creature removal in any of the decks I mentioned. A good Merfolk deck plays Spell Pierce or Snare, not Vapor Snag. Between running your opponent over with a team of 4/4+ creatures or just islandwalking through them, vapor snag is more of a sidboard card for Merfolk.
There any number of different evolutionary directions where Waste Not can go. Would it be O.K. if we take it out of the wrapper, and play with it for a little while? If and when it falls apart, we collectively promise that you can say, "I told you so".
Welcome to the updated thread for RW prisons. This is the thread for RW Prison strategies.
The term Prison applies to a deck that is designed to prevent the opponent from playing, normally by removing their resources and deploying defensive permanents such as Chalice of the Void . Stack interaction is generally kept to a relative minimum, in contrast to classic control shells using counterspells. These decks tend to be very low on creatures, often blanking large chunks of the opponent's suite of spells. They also tend to mess with the opponent's mana base in some way and have a tendency to "go long." There are three basic shells that overlap here, presented in order of how widely they are currently played.
RW offers a very wide toolbox of cards. White has often been referred to as the "sideboard colour" of Modern, due to the fact that it has the most efficient hate cards, some of which are in fact able to be included in the main deck. Red offers the ability to disrupt mana, which is a non-no for every other colour in the format. This is most often achieved with the wildly moaned about Blood Moon, although other red spells can actually destroy lands.
RW Prison decks have had intermittent infrequent SCG level success for some while, whilst specifically the Planeswalker Control (Sun and Moon) version has exploded over 2016, gaining a lot of success as more players pick it up.
This combination of factors mean that the deck plays very differently from stack based control lists such as USA Control.
The most successful version of the deck is the Planeswalker Control version, known as Sun and Moon by some sites. This is why this thread has been placed in "tier 2", and if you want a ready-to-go list with a decent chance of SCG type success then this is the version for you. It probably has the least room for deck-building innovation as it is the most well-known version of the deck, having been extensively covered on SCG et al. Steven Livingstone had a variation on this in his 6th place at a SCG Invitational Qualifier in November 2016 that included a Kiki package, so innovation is not completely out of the question, but in general this version of the deck has the most agreement on what should be played. If you do play this version you should be aware that opponents will probably have encountered the deck and will likely have a good idea of your list.
The Planeswalker list evolved in 2016 from the Bridge Control lists that feature in the second part of the primer. These are a very similar shell to the Planeswalker lists, which essentially came about by including Nahiri and Emrakul and replacing Ensnaring Bridge , including more sorcery spells and Planeswalkers. There is more scope for building and refining lists here using the extensive pool of playable red and white Modern cards. Whilst he match ups are broadly similar to the Planeswalker lists, there are some differences.
The final version is Landkill, which overlaps with the Bridge lists but has a very different feel. Here the focus is on land destruction and white's unique portfolio of taxes. This has probably the most room for innovation, those lists that have done well have been very, very different. This has a very different set of match-ups too, for example Gx tron is one of the easier match-ups.
This list is a prison-esque list developed mainly by Todd Stevens. He prefers not to call it a prison because it only has 8 genuine prison cards. Sadly for him, whilst he managed to make the name "Sun and Moon" stick, the moniker of "RW Prison" has also stuck on several top MTG sites and he called it W/R prison in his article for SCG at the end of November. The deck is less about lockdown than its predecessors.
The deck is famous for two cards that can steal wins. The first is Chalice of the Void and it can be deployed earlier than would be normal via Simian Spirit Guide. Chalice is predominantly a way of countering spells with converted mana cost one, which encompasses a large number of key spells in the format- it is nearly always set to one counter.
Blood Moon is the second prison piece and it simply nerfs non basic lands and turns them into mountains, forcing the opponent to fetch Basic lands early on if they can or risk being horribly colour screwed.
The deck obviously avoids running 1cc spells, so Lightning Bolt and Path to Exile do not make it in favour of 2cc options. Boards that get out of hand are reset by anti-creature sweepers.
The deck uses a consistent manabase with relatively few fetches and a large number of Plains. Temple of Triumph is a four of here (as it is in almost every RW control list) as deck manipulation is at a premium.
Wincons come via planeswalkers' ultimates, and better opponents scooping when they know they are going to lose game one
These are essential lock pieces, found in every Planeswalker control build.
This is the Planeswalker that is always found as a playset.
The core parts of the mana base are discussed below, and the sweepers, whilst core are discussed in the flexible section, as their number varies from build-to-build.
The deck will run 24-25 land (an average of 24.6 from the lists that I have recorded).
Temple of Triumph is a four of, as filtering is at a premium. Fetches are surprisingly few for those who are new to the deck, the main aim being to get white before any Blood Moon shenanigans.
Basic plains typically number 9, although some lists run more.
I have not seen a list without Simian Spirit Guide acceleration.
Gemstone Caverns has been suggested as another potential source of acceleration on the draw, and has been widely adopted, but is not but not universal.
Sweepers will be present in some quantity, typically between four and six cards, and the basic choices are
Anger of the Gods and at 4cc
Wrath of God , although I have seen well-placed lists online using inferior versions such as Day of Judgement.
Pinpoint removal normally comes in the form of two instants and some enchantments.
Lightning Helix
Blessed Alliance
These are flexible cards that help to glue the flashier looking parts of the deck together.
Enchantments
Journey to Nowhere
Banishing Light
The ever growing selection of quality walkers is basically
Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Ajani Vengeant
Gideon Jura
Elspeth, Sun's Champion (which has generally fallen out of favour somewhat as Todd Stevens dropped her from the main)
You could add a fair few versions of Gideon to the list, to be fair.
Some lists have also dabbled with Assemble the Legion as a win con.
Stony Silence
This nails Affinity and Tron, slows Ad Nauseam or any other deck using lots of mana rocks. One of the most powerful cards in Modern boards.
Rest in Peace
Hits Goyf, Snapcaster, any flashback or Dredge spell, and, of course, Dredge, Living End, the "Grishoalbrand" reanimation deck variants and all the Melira tricks et al. All star card.
Timely Reinforcements
Life and blockers for just 3 mana , this is a great anti-aggro card.
Ravenous Trap More bin hate aimed squarely at Dredge. As Dredge decks decrease in number this is the first one to be cut.
Boil Anti blue weapon of choice, it helps force things through when cast at the end of their turn, when Jeskai is on the rise these are strong.
Sudden Shock
Anti Infect card, as that deck is dead-ish post ban so these are not seen too often, although they do stop infinite combos with Devoted Druid.
Leyline of Sanctity
This all star helps protects you and planeswalkers from the opponents' direct damage spells, protects hands from targeted effects and has other fringe applications such as not allowing Gifts Ungiven to be played.
Crumble to Dust Anti Tron card.
Celestial Purge Self-explanatory card that exiles a lot of irritants in the format, including Nahiri in the mirror.
Spellskite Helps protect permanents and redirects opponents' pump/removal spells.
If this is not what you are looking for, plenty of other off-the-wall choices that could be made or have featured in odd lists are available a section at the end of the primer, and you can check the other two sections for ideas.
Sideboarding and brief matchups have been discussed here amongst other places:
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/33919_Your-Guide-To-Sun-And-Moon-In-Modern.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/34120_Everything-You-Need-To-Know-About-Sun-And-Moon.html
I won't go into too much detail here, Modern has way too many matches too cover, and if people are expecting to take this to GPT or FNM events they are not going to be playing exclusively tier one decks. Feel free to discuss specific match-ups in the thread. If someone wants to write a match by match guide for 20-30 decks you could see at an LGS then they can do so and I will include it.
In general Gx tron is not the easy match some people perhaps expect at first glance- you don't finish quickly, and they can out control practically anything with a late game big play. Once they clear the board of Blood Moon after meandering to 7 or 8 "mountains" they can go to town with their mega mana. Fast combo generally that does not involve creaures, such as Ad Nauseam is very challenging without weakening other matches. Some matches such as BGx or Bant Eldrazi depend on seeing certain cards early, whilst any deck heavy on counterspells that you do not disrupt early can potentially beat you by denying you key pieces whilst applying their own pressure.
Eldra-Tron is a different beast entirely, and should be treated as an aggro deck.
Decks that this deck does best against are the ones that Chalice and Moon are most effective against- Infect (now sadly lamented) and Death Shadow decks being obvious on both counts. Todd Stevens had some success against Dredge and other big format players. Burn is unlikely to be able to keep up with your lifegain and is very vulnerable to Chalice, Affinity is an aggro deck and this deck deals well with such decks. Some go wide decks like Merfolk have Vial and a large number of basic lands, making the Moon and Chalice parts less than stellar there, but in general aggressive decks are the easiest.
I have added Khaos Knight69's more detailed guide below.
Burn - Favorable, Chalice at 1 shuts them down almost for good, Blood Moon is surprisingly relevant against Naya/Boros versions, 4x Helix and 2x Blessed Alliance are common for the mainboard, so 6 mainboard lifegain spells that also kill their attackers really help out.
Dredge - Even game 1, favorable game 2-3. Game 1 it really depends on what we draw and what they draw. Chalice at 1 shuts down Neonate and Faithless Looting. If you run Ensnaring Bridge mainboard you have a very favourable matchup here if you can draw it quick enough. Game 2 they board in Ancient Grudge but we board in Rest in Peace. Blood moon is great at shutting down their Life from the Loam's and any hardcasts they want to do on their creatures. Anger of the Gods is an all-star here and the fact that we mainboard 3 of them is probably the only reason we're "even" game 1.
Jund & Junk - Favourable game 1, favourable to even 2-3. Game 1 Blood Moon can be gg. Chalice at 1 shuts down their lightning bolts, IoK's and Thoughtseize. Blessed Alliance is great here because they will frequently only swing with 1 attacker. Game 2-3 Rest in Peace comes in, as does Leyline if you play it. They get a lot more resilient with Abrupt Decays, Maelstrom Pulses, and other sideboard tech, but its still definitely a favourable matchup.
Tron - Even to unfavourable game 1, unfavourable game 2 & 3. Despite what you may think of a deck running 4x Blood Moon mainboard, Tron is actually probably one of our toughest matchups. We have a tendency to durdle behind a Blood Moon and a Chalice until we draw into a wincon. Tron is happy to play that game, hitting land drops and filtering through their deck until they can just hardcast an Ugin and win. Land Destruction helps to stall, but what you really want is to get a Blood Moon down and follow it up with a relatively short clock like Nahiri.
Affinity - Even to Favourable game 1, favourable game 2 and 3. Game 1 if they are on the play you will lose unless you draw some boardwipes or they have a slow hand. Chalice is a tough call, because all of their game-ending threats are 2 drops, but lots of their "support" are 0 drops, and they play a fair bit of important 1 drops as well. Ultimately chalice at 1 is probably the best play, shutting down their Springleaf Drum, Signal Pest, and Galvanic Blast, however if you don't mind shutting down several of our own spells and can get there, Chalice at 2 shuts down Plating, Overseer, Ravager, Vault Skirge, basically half their deck. Blood Moon is great here, shutting off their Inkmoth/Blinkmoth. Game 2-3 Stony Silence comes in and makes the matchup much easier.
Infect - Favourable game 1, Favourable game 2 and 3. Infect is one of the decks we were basically made to beat. So long as you don't lose to mulligans, infect shouldn't be too tough. Chalice at 1 shuts down 3/4ths of the deck, Blood Moon shuts down Inkmoth, Blessed Alliance kills through every one of their protection spells. Game 2 and 3 should be about as easy, depending on what you board in.
Bant Eldrazi - Even to favourable game 1, even game 2 and 3. Eldrazi feels like a crapshoot. Sometimes your chalice at 1 shuts down their mana dorks and your blood moon shuts down their lands and they never see a Wastes and it's smooth sailing. Sometimes you land a turn 1 chalice at 1, turn 2 blood moon, and they still wipe the floor with you by hardcasting TKS and Reality Smasher on-curve with the help of their Talismans.
Ad Nauseum - Even to Unfavourable game 1, Unfavourable game 2 and 3. They play Lotus Bloom and Pentad prisms to get around Blood Moon, Chalice at 1 shuts down their draw spells and Angel's Grace but not Unlife. We don't really clock them or have hand disruption, so they can stockpile counters and whatnot until they are ready. Chalice at 0 isn't a terrible play here, shutting down their lotus blooms and pact of negations. Game 2 Leyline comes in (or Nevermore naming Lightning Storm and their only remaining wincon is Lab Maniac. Ultimately I'd peg this one as a tough matchup, because our Blessed Alliance and Lightning Helix don't really have good targets, Banishing Light/sorcery speed exile is too slow, and they can win around bridge
Grixis Delver - Favourable Game 1, Favourable Game 2 & 3. This should be easy. Chalice at 1 shuts down their Discard suite, their Lightning Bolts, and their Delvers. Blood Moon cripples their mana base, and they play less total threats than we play total answers.
Eldrazi Tron - Favourable Game 1, Favourable Game 2 & 3. Different from Bant Eldrazi in that they drop mana dorks for Chalice of the Void, and kill you with beatdown, Walking Balista, or Endbringer. The inclusion of Tron lands mean they run only 2 Wastes, which means a resolved Blood Moon can slow them down considerably. This is another matchup where Chalice is useless, and might warrant Path to Exile/Pithing Needle in your sideboard.
Jeskai Harbinger - Even to unfavourable Game 1, Even to unfavourable game 2 & 3. Blood Moon and Chalice are great here, but our clock is not. If they land a Nahiri, you need to interact with it in some way within 2 turns or you lose. That's not wonderful for our deck, as the only ways we have to deal with Nahiri are Lightning Helix (which is a stall), Chandra's +1 (which is a stall), or Banishing Light (which is an answer). Game 2 & 3 depend entirely on the version you run, generally speaking Ensnaring Bridge is an all-star in this matchup, shutting down their main wincons of Colonnade and Emrakul while Chalice shuts down their Bolts.
Merfolk - Even to unfavourable Game 1, Even Game 2 & 3. Game 1 sucks, Blood Moon shuts down Mutavaults annnd...thats it. Chalice at 1 slows them down by shutting off their Cursecatchers and Aether Vials (and vapor snags which don't affect us really) but that's it. Game 1 is winnable if you draw into enough removal and they don't draw into enough threats to keep up, but it's tough. Game 2 and 3 are much easier if you play Ensnaring Bridge. If you don't, stuff in all your board wipes and all your removal and hope for a good draw.
Suicide Zoo - Easy game 1, easy game 2 & 3. Easy win here, regardless of the version you run. Blood Moon hoses them, Chalice at 1 hoses them, Ensnaring Bridge hoses them.
Lantern Control - Easy game 1, easy game 2 & 3. Lantern loses to Chalice at 1, and their primary wincon of milling you to death loses to a maindeck Emrakul. Chandra will be the main wincon against them, as their MB Ensnaring Bridge stops Nahiri.
Mirror Match - Boros Prison - even game 1, even game 2 & 3. The weirdest mirror match I've played. Chalice is useless, Blood Moon is useless, Ensnaring Bridge is largely useless. Be prepared to sideboard out 8 cards and be bewildered as to what you should sideboard in aside from Leylines. Leyline of Sanctity is an all-star here. If you run a sideboard that swaps out Chalice for useful 1-drops like Path or Pithing Needle, this is one of the best match-ups for that plan.
RG Breach / RG Scapeshift / RG Valakut - Favourable game 1, favourable game 2 & 3. Chalice doesn't do much here, but blood moon shuts down the Valakut game plan and Ensnaring Bridge shuts down their TTB wincons. Game 2 and 3 you can bring in Leyline and even Ruined Halo as sideboard tech. A resolved Blood Moon means that their only other game plan is to kill you with a breached Emrakul or a Primeval Titan. Breached Emrakul is very tough to deal with (although Runed Halo and Stasis Snare are both tools in our colours that we can use), Prime time is a 6/6 trampler but with a Blood Moon out his fangs aren't quite so long (no fetching Valakuts for you).
Grixis Control - Even to slightly unfavourable Game 1, even to slightly unfavourable game 2 & 3. Chalice at 1 shuts down their discard suite, their draw suite, and their lightning bolts. But that doesn't matter when they can Delve out a Tasigur and K Command your Ensnaring Bridges. Control will always be a tough match up for this deck. That said, if we can land a threat against them after controlling the board and building the prison of Blood Moon + Chalice, they will struggle to stop it.
Cheerios: Even to favourable game 1, Favourable game 2 and 3
Cheerios is the newest combo deck to hit the field thanks to Sram, Senior Edificer acting as Puresteel Paladin 5-8. Chalice set at 0 shuts down their entire deck, Blood Moon shuts down nearly all of their lands. The danger in the deck is it's explosiveness. They can achieve a turn 2 kill fairly easily, just slam down a paladin or Sram and start dropping 0-drop equipments (thus the name Cheerios).
Reanimator: Unfavourable game 1, unfavourable game 2 and 3
Reanimator seeks to put a Griselbrand into play as soon as possible. They manage tons of extra activations by packing 4x Nourishing Shoal and 4x Worldspine Wurm into their lists to chain together activations, before using mana accelerants like Simian Spirit Guide and Desperate Ritutal to breach out something to kill you with. The best tech against this deck is Rest in Peace to shut down their yard-based strategy, and Rule of Law style effects to stop them from comboing off. Even with both in play, they can still win via Through the Breach.
UW Control and Variants: unfavourable game 1, unfavourable game 2 and 3
Basically any non-greedy control deck will be a tough matchup for us. We rely on Blood Moon and Chalice to shut down control as much as we can, and even when Blood Moon hits a ton of their lands it's still an uneven matchup.
Hatebears: Even to unfavourable game 1, even to unfavourable game 2 and 3.
Hatebears plays a bunch of 2 drop 2/2s with "prison" style effects on them. They will try to lock down your ability to search, to play non-creature spells, etc. Chalice at 2 shuts them down, but as that costs 4 mana it's a bit of a tall order. We play plenty of boardwipes and that helps the match-up considerably, but it's still an interesting one that will keep you on your toes.
Abzan Company: Favourable game 1, Favourable game 2 and 3. Abzan CoCo seeks to win via value creature beats, or by comboing out for infinite life/infinite damage with Viscera Seer, Melira/Anazfenza, and Kitchen Finks/Murderous Redcaps. We beat them by resolving a Blood Moon. Chalice at 1 stops their dorks and seers. Save exile effects for finks while using helices on their other creatures and you should be fine.
Bloomless Titan: Favourable game 1, Favourable game 2 and 3. Blood Moon is GG vs this deck. Chalice at 1 shuts down their serum visions, amulet, and ancient stirrings. Chalice at 0 shuts down their pacts, and that's that. If you don't have Blood Moon out and they play Asuza, Lost but Seeking, chances are you'll lose that turn. If you don't, kill Asuza/play a blood moon or lose the following turn.
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ajani Vengeant
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Gideon Jura
4 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Mountain
9 Plains
4 Arid Mesa
1 Needle Spires
3 Rugged Prairie
2 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Banishing Light
4 Blood Moon
2 Journey to Nowhere
1 Blessed Alliance
4 Lightning Helix
3 Anger of the Gods
2 Wrath of God
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Wrath of God
I must admit the 3 Leylines make me twitchy.
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ajani Vengeant
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Nahiri, the Harbinger
2 Gideon Jura
1 Blessed Alliance
4 Lightning Helix
3 Anger of the Gods
3 Wrath of God
2 Banishing Light
4 Blood Moon
4 Arid Mesa
2 Gemstone Caverns
1 Mountain
8 Plains
4 Rugged Prairie
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Boil
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
This next one shows a bit more innovation in the board, and is the only one I have seen without 4 SSG. Note it runs main deck Leyline of Sanctity (which can really hurt some decks), and just 3 Nahiri.
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Simian Spirit Guide
Instant (4)
1 Sudden Shock
1 Blessed Alliance
2 Lightning Helix
Sorcery (7)
1 Timely Reinforcements
3 Anger of the Gods
3 Wrath of God
Enchantment (6)
2 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Blood Moon
2 Ajani Vengeant
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Gideon Jura
3 Nahiri, the Harbinger
4 Chalice of the Void
Land (25)
1 Mountain
2 Clifftop Retreat
3 Sacred Foundry
3 Temple of Triumph
4 Rugged Prairie
12 Plains
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
1 Celestial Purge
2 Sudden Shock
2 Word of Seizing
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Anger of the Gods
There is plenty of Video content out there:
Memory Lapse, original creator of this thread, regularly plays RW lockdown and he makes a lot of videos. An example from 2016 is here, many others can be found on his you tube channel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMo8eK0jRI4
From Jeff Hoogland....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8gTb76m3vU
A random league match.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiV3b_Y1RB0
SCG deck tech:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmNoigE_DUg
From CFB:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsvBDQB77fc
This is variation on the Planeswalker control lists. It uses Bridges and thus avoids Nahiri/Emrakul tech. Using Bridges will give a stronger match vs. some decks such as Merfolk and Grishoalbrand, but it makes winning harder, and if you don't include Nahiri you lose filtering too. You are more likely to see sideboard cards like Leyline or Rest in Peace maindeck in this type of list as people look for an edge. There is plenty of scope here to experiment with the Boros toolbox, many different iterations have done well historically.
The manabase is basically the same as for Nahiri, and the core cards- Chalice, Spirit Guides and Blood Moon are also the same. Needless to say, four Bridge are also core.
The list of Planeswalker is as for Sun and Moon, with Ajani being very common in these lists. Chandra, Torch of Defiance is a stellar card in this type of deck, which needs to draw cards in those grindy matches.
Additionally Elspeth, Knight Errant has been seen in some of these from time-to-time, although her +3+3 conflicts horribly with Bridge. Even Koth of the Hammer has been sighted, but you have to bend the deck towards mountains.
Leyline of Sanctity often makes the main deck in Bridge Control, whilst other traditional board cards often do too.
These aside, the main thing is Assemble the Legion is often used in these as it does not conflict with Bridge, and it wins very, very quickly once it gets going. You will always have a card in hand to allow attacks for twenty plus with tokens.
Bridge also gives rise to Bottled Cloister from time to time, an old combo that protects your hand from discard but allows you to have a full hand on your turn.
The removal is largely the same package as Planeswalker control, as is the side, although you tend to see more variation here-
Nevermore and similar cards are often used in these decks to help fight combo, and
Runed Halo gets a fair chunk of play - its versatile and can hose some decks.
Wear//Tear is likely to be seen in the board if you do not run Nahiri.
Largely speaking the match ups follow a similar pattern to Planeswalker Control.
There are some differences.
Bridges make for stronger performances against reanimation of fatties and decks using Through the Breach tech from the board. Merfolk, Elves and Bant Eldrazi are easier too. Affinity can sneak past the Bridge with its 0 power men, which it cannot do vs the extra removal of PW control. BG-X matches are harder especially if they play things like Maelstrom Pulse, whilst matches up against Grixis can go south more easily due to it running artifact kill main deck via Kolaghan's Command.
Note this list runs a bit of landkill as well as Moon effects.
4 Arid Mesa
2 Mountain
7 Plains
2 Rugged Prairie
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 CREATURES
4 Simian Spirit Guide
13 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Anger of the Gods
4 Lightning Helix
3 Molten Rain
2 Wrath of God
2 Ajani Vengeant
1 Assemble the Legion
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Koth of the Hammer
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Runed Halo
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Boil
2 Celestial Purge
2 Defense Grid
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
This next list was in the era of Twin decks, hence some odd looking Torpor Orbs in the board and Dampening Matrix main.
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Planeswalkers (5)
2 Ajani Vengeant
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Gideon Jura
2 Mountain
7 Plains
4 Arid Mesa
2 Clifftop Retreat
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Damping Matrix
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Assemble the Legion
4 Blood Moon
1 Ghostly Prison
2 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Lightning Helix
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Wrath of God
3 Defense Grid
3 Torpor Orb
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Nevermore
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Wear // tear
This next one is a Bridge list that looks closest to PW control.
4 Wall of Omens
3 Ajani Vengeant
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Mountain
10 Plains
4 Arid Mesa
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Blood Moon
4 Peace of Mind
4 Lightning Helix
3 Anger of the Gods
2 Spellskite
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Nevermore
3 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
1 Anger of the Gods
Plenty of other versions of Bridge control have popped up. For example, some 2014 video content from Frank Lepore is here:
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=11683
And uncle Frank is back at it here in 2017, though I don't one hundred percent agree with his summation, and I would like to have seen Assemble the Legion in the list.
https://www.channelfireball.com/videos/modern-moonday-rw-prison/
Plenty more are out there showing a fair degree of innovation.
Landkill decks do exactly as it says on the tin. They blow up land, and Tax opponents. They share the Chalice tech, may run Spirit Guides or Gemstone Caverns and use the same pinpoint removal. They have often bled into the Bridge Control lists. Planeswalkers can be played here, but if you include the Tax Suppression Field to tax fetch heavy decks they cannot. Ones using Magus of the Tabernacle and Taxes are often referred to as Stax, after the Legacy deck. The deck is sometimes known as Ponza, too, especially if not running many taxes, named after Landkill lists of the late 1990's, though it shares little in common with the original.
The core of the landkill will involve Boom//Bust, combined with 4 Flagstones of Trokair. These allow t2 landkill and mana fixing in one, potentially.
At 3 cc core landkill spells
Molten Rain and
Stone Rain will be auto includes.
As for taxes we have
Ghostly Prison and
Magus of the Tabernacle is pretty standard, Magus is a huge toughness dude who gives all creatures a static upkeep of 1. For those at REL, if they draw a card and try to pay- call a judge- who will place the creature in the bin as the default action. The trigger is given to all creatures, it is the creatures' controller who has to remember it, not you.
As for other creatures, Goblin Darkdwellers allowed you to play either side of Boom//Bust until Ammonket, and is normally there in more recent lists. The rules quirk of being able to play both sides is well-known, most judges know it, but the rule change on 23 April 17 means that it no longer allows a cheeky 'geddon.
Aven Mindcensor normally makes the main, as it is pseudo landkill often.
Supression Field is core in Stax decks, but not in other landkill decks.
Here we have basically any of the cards mentioned to date in the previous sections. As you can see from the decklist section, this is not a well-defined deck, and is wide open for deckbuilders to get to work. A good rule of thumb is to have 10 pieces of potential disruption turn 2- Boom Bust being 4 of them. You can choose to include Suppression Field but not Planeswalkers, or can go down the Planeswalker route, whilst Chalice and Blood Moon have been seen in some landkill lists, especially Chalice. Some lists use Spirit Guides to get 3 cc Landkill early.
The latest Thalia might well have a place too, but it is easier to kill than Ghostly Prison.
Crucible of Worlds allows recursive landkill via GQ until they run out of basics and is very powerful if left unchecked, though GQ won't happen too much till late game due to Suppression Field.
A number of landkill creatures exist too, they are a little slow but flexible. Fulminator Mage and Avalanche Rider are the two you are most likely to see, although both are rare.
Note that Rest In Peace stops the Boom Bust-Flagstones tricks and Crucible, so Grafdigger's cage is likely as a board card, despite conflicts with Chalice.
The mana base is as you would expect, 4 Temple of Triumph, 4 Flagstones, Sacred Foundry and not too many fetches, none if using Suppression Field as you probably should be.
S field hits
Every fetchland in most decks
Every planeswalker
Any manlands e.g. Mutavault in tribal decks like Merfolk, Inkmoth in Infect
Grishoalbrand's big guys' activated ability suite
Lightning Storm in Ad Nauseam
Ravager and Plating etc. in affinity
Sac outlets in Melira combo
Kiki in Kiki Combo
Vial and Cursecatcher in Merfolk
Vial in hatebears/BW Eldrazi
Map and O stone in Tron (which is an issue if you are blowing up their land)
Engineered Explosives
Fulminator Mage and all the cycling in Living End
Equipment
I will leave the board discussion as it will very much depend on your list, but the usual suspects still apply.
This obviously depends on your list, but in general you should be beating Gx Tron and any greedy mana lists, although it won't be a walkover. All but the fastest aggro is relatively easy. Fair decks with a less greedy mana base are very challenging, it depends simply on how greedy they are. Fastest Aggro is fine as long as your list is not too chunky, Top Control is weak unless you are playing Suppression Field main.
Ad Nauseam is pretty easy, especially if you use Suppression Field. Anything with lots of counterspells in is going to be marginal at best- U tron is hard, for example.
This list is an online one that surfaced just after Nahiri. It looks like a hybrid of all three strategies.
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Nahiri, the Harbinger
4 Mountain
4 Plains
4 Arid Mesa
4 Rugged Prairie
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Anger of the Gods
4 Boom
4 Molten Rain
2 Defense Grid
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Stony Silence
2 Celestial Purge
2 Kozilek's Return
2 Wear//tear
1 Shatterstorm
Next is this list from contributor Shoggoth, who took down an IQ with it. It is a little chunky, but a classic style Landkill-Stax list
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Fulminator Mage
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
Planeswalkers
2 Ajani Vengeant
Artifacts
1 Bottled Cloister
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge
Enchantments
4 Ghostly Prison
Spells
4 Boom // Bust
4 Molten Rain
4 Stone Rain
2 Wildfire
3 Lightning Helix
4 Arid Mesa
4 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Keldon Megaliths
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
1 Mountain
3 Plains
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Defense Grid
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Kor Firewalker
1 Nevermore
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroclasm
3 Stony Silence
Here is my Suppression Field list. I made the semi of a small WMCQ with this list, which has top 8'd a medium sized 80 player event too. The oust in the board would be Blessed Alliance now.
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Sacred Foundry
3 Plain
1 Mountain
1 Keldon Megalith
3 Ghost Quarter
2 Chalice of the Void
4 Suppression Field
2 Lightning Helix
2 Pyroclasm
4 Boom // Bust
4 Stone Rain
4 Molten Rain
1 Runed Halo
4 Ghostly Prison
2 Aven mindcensor
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Goblin Dark Dwellers
3 Stony Silence
2 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Linvala, Keeper of silence
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Boil (meta depending)
1 Grafdigger's cage
1 Oust
1 Runed halo
There are a few variants kicking about that might be appropriate for thread discussion.
A well-known variant on all three strategies is to use Kiki-Jiki, Wall of Omens and finish a la Splinter Twin.
One Nahiri variant by Steven Livingston did this in an SCG in Nov 2016.
Another is Angel Moon, discussed here
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/instant-deck-tech-angel-moon
Innovation is welcome, the thread is for deckbuilders and people who just want to pick up an established list.
"Why have you not included X?"
Answer- PM me if you think it should be included, but check the whole Primer first. New cards are added to Flex or Core if they settle in and are widely adopted for a period of time. Speculation e.g. "this spoiled card will be Core please add it" will not get me changing the primer.
"Can I put my deck/question here?"
We will direct you if it is in the wrong thread, feel free to post. In general if it has vials and hatebears in then the Death and Taxes thread is probably right. If it has counterspells and blue then it is probably not us either. Tiny splashes of other colours- that is ok. Obscure threads exist for RG landkill, for example, involving Arbor Elf et al, or for Enchantment control, Enduring Ideal and other lockdown strategies, so if your deck is out of place no offence will be taken and you will be directed there.
This is a list of cards that have been used historically and not mentioned thus far, feel free to add your suggestions to me or to ignore.
I have avoided obvious playable cards that are 1cc such as Surgical Extraction or Relic of Progenitus, we know that in four Chalice lists these are problematical, but they could obviously be played in a non Chalice list.
Outpost Siege Used in some Bridge Control lists
Word of Seizing made the board of an SCG Planeswalker Control list.
Karma Surprisingly legal board card that has made the odd Bridge Control board.
Oblivion Ring
Day of Judgement Seen in MTGO lists, inferior to Wrath.
Pyroclasm 2cc sweeper
Storage Matrix used in the odd Landkill Stax lists
Blind obedience seen in the odd Bridge control list
Trinisphere from the days when Storm and Cascade was a player
Rule of Law Ditto, although the effect is good against Tron
Dampening matrix
Tectonic Edge one of many utility lands, was big at the start of Modern
Mystifying Maze ditto, made the odd Bridge control list as defence vs. affinity 0 power dudes and Ravager's Modular ability
World Queller Historical Landkill card, too expensive for Modern.
Magus of the Moon Hatebear seen as Moon 5/6 in Bridge lists
Thalia, Heretic Cathar Potentially a player in Landkill
Plenty of other white hatebears exist that might make innvovative lists
Sanctimony anti burn, little seen as it is too narrow
Bottled Cloister Used in some Bridge lists, could be used in others.
Wildfire seen often in the older lockdown lists from 2012/13.
Magma Jet seen in the odd list does a bit of manipulation but is relatively low powered as removal
Peace of Mind seen in Bridge lists.
Trading Post not seen in Bridge lists, but found in Legacy Stax (that also hide behind bridges) where it is a real swiss army knife- it compares favorably to Peace of Mind for my 50 cents.
I have tried to make the stax section cover both recurring stax style strategies and landkill/stax hybrids, and have worked the cards into a format similar to boros/bridge versions. I did not just cut and paste from that section, I reworked a lot of the comments that needed it as their usefulness often depends on the strategy. I also added new cards like sceptre of dominance , and made sure the card tags were present in that section.
We also have room to expand the discussion onto more critter orientated versions as required.
I thought the Twin style finish list deserved a shout of its own and took the liberty of adding it to the primer at the end.
It nicely demonstrates that you can be lockdown with a combo finish. I would love some extra matchup data/discussion on that style of deck too. Would be ahppy to include it.
For me primarily talking about landkill-stax version, the biggest problem I still have is the two PWs being killed too easily vs aggro, although Gideon can be a house. Assemble the legion is superb, best finisher in the deck for me. The two pw slots are up for grabs, perhaps. If i can get those slots right I may get the deck to a ptq in june.... The sceptres and signets have really solved a lot of problems, and the deck is way less binary than it was. Mana issues are very rare now, and flexibility is essential in card choices. Aura of silence really patches up a lot of holes post board.
The bridge version can protect their PWs really well with bridge- it would be lovely if wizards could give us another bridge or ghostly effect. I think we may be waiting awhile for them to come up with modern quality prison cards......
4 Arid Mesa
4 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
4 Plains
4 Sacred Foundry
3 Tectonic Edge
Creatures
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 World Queller
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Lightning Helix
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Chalice of the Void
3 Wildfire
Artifacts
3 Crucible of Worlds
Ramp
4 Boros Signet
2 Mind Stone
Planeswalkers
3 Ajani Vengeant
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Pyroclasm
2 Rest in Peace
2 Torpor Orb
2 Runed Halo
2 Suppression Field
2 Pithing Needle
I've been playing this almost stock Stax list from the OP all day and it's been surprisingly amazing and also a ton of fun to play. The only change I made so far is -1 World Queller for +1 Wildfire. Like the article that the deck is from said, he went for 3 Quellers and 2 Wildfires because of the popularity of Lilliana but Jund's died down a little since then and even then I'm not all that big of a fan of Queller in the first place, it feels pretty slow and clunky.
What do you guys think about maybe moving 2 Chalice to the SB and replacing 2 Queller with something else to free up 4 slots. I'm thinking 2 MD Pyros might help but I'm not sure. Played against a lot of GW hatebears, Faeries, Merfolk, Pod, RB aggro, 8rack, Jund and a bunch of others I forgot today and I think this could be a really good deck with a few tweaks.
Edit: Trying this out and just beat RDW 2/0 with it.
4 Arid Mesa
4 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Mountain
4 Plains
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Tectonic Edge
Creatures
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
Spells
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Lightning Helix
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Wildfire
2 Boom // Bust
2 Pyroclasm
1 Anger of the Gods
3 Crucible of Worlds
Ramp
4 Boros Signet
2 Mind Stone
PlanesWalkers
3 Ajani Vengeant
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Rest in Peace
2 Torpor Orb
2 Runed Halo
2 Suppression Field
2 Pithing Needle
2 Shattering Spree
-1 Tectonic Edge
+1 Mountain
-2 Queller
+2 Boom // Bust
-2 Chalice of the Void
+2 Pyroclasm
-1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Anger of the Gods / Firesprout
Thanks! Interesting suggestion- and I thought the primer had everything......;)
Never actually tried it- sacrifice circumvents darksteel citadel for sure, a downside and an upside of course- but it could work wonders with the each player sacrifices a permanent card whose name escapes me... it is probably a bit too situational for competitive lists- because you opponent can control the effect as well as you- but it may be one of those build around cards.....
A familar set of matches for those who know the old thread- thanks for the report- your deck is a bit less bridge based than boros bridge lockdown, but seems to share many of the same traits- a strong, almost impregnable aggro match up (and a faster beatdown clock too), a great twin match and a harder time vs control, so the report is pretty much in keeping with what is to be expected.
My only suggestion would be guttural responses in the board (it is awesomely strong vs cryptic and rev'n), and perhaps shave a path or two- you rarely want to path early on anyway, and with your skites and prison the twin matchup should be easy- there is not much else to path in the format that has to be pathed there and then- especially when you run anger, bolt and helix. A couple of flexi slots might not go amiss, or even blood moon main. Boil is always good vs control too, although better in landkill it can still pull the rug from under them.......
In my experience there is a sliding graph of aggro and control- the more landkill type stuff that goes in the easier the control matchup gets, and the harder the aggro.
Keep the work on guys!
EDH
WBruna -- Control voltronU
BCrosis -- CruelcontrolUR
WGhostcouncil -- Sac 'n recB
BGlissa -- StaxG
WKemba -- Equipment voltronW
UMelek -- StormR
RPurphoros -- RDWR
BRakdos -- Combo beatdownR
URiku -- Timmy beatdownRG
BSidisi -- Dredge GU
Vintage
Control Slaver
Bomberman
It is still going strong............
Online the majority of rw lockdown decks have tended towards bridge based control. Stax is a bit rarer- it seemed like a natural list to use for the site.
I am not sure the format can justify world queller at the moment at least outside of lists running chalice to stop path/vapor snag. Queller is one of my fave cards ever, but at five mana if he gets bounced/pathed it is ugly time. At least magus' ability kicks in during their upkeep- meaning if they are tapped out when you cast him you get to restrict them no matter. I do think there are valid lockdown decks out there- blood moon can be very strong, our planeswalkers are at the better end of the spectru, prison/magus is still fantastic, and boom//bust flagstone or citadel is strong play t2, plus we are the colour of splinter twin and the best board cards in the format.
R1- griselbrand reanimator/ttb 1-1
This was my deck I loaned out to someone who had been playing their own list I believe.
Mine is well tuned.
G1 I am on the draw.
A t2 boom gets me some traction.
Resolved t3 stone rain and ghostly prison buys me yet more time, and the win is relatively facile.
Game 2- similar plays- I bring in aura of silence over o-ring- it does the same job-killing prisms - mana source denial, but makes the prisms cost more- although they sunburst for more as a consequence. I have him to 11 life and he manages to get out grisselbrand at the cost of his prism mana- with 1 card in hand, tapped out. I have gideon in hand. I tap it with sceptre of dominance. He is tapped out and spins the wheel - drawing to 4 life- getting the fury of the hoard and red cards. He repeats again and again. A resolved Gideon next turn would have won it for me.
G3 time is called- the curse of 40 min rounds. I think I was slight fave for the game where we were, hard to tell.
R2 storm 2-0
I go off on landkill game one- oringing an ascension at one point. I board in 3 leylines, 3 rest in peaces, 3 aura of silences, 2 guttural responses and 2 boil.
I get a t0 leyline, a t2 landkill a t3 runed, t4 rest in peace in peace, more landkill and 2 auras of silence and a response in hand. He finishes on 2 lands........
R3 I get to play my GW hatebears- it took its last 20 player event 5-0, and is a really well tuned list. Again it is loaned out by me to benefit the eve. 0-1nt at the expense of err, me. 0-1
Here is what happened....
I get to 3 land, have Gideon, assemble the legion and a magus in hand- with a couple of landkills to kick off with. 5 turns later I have the same 3 land on the table, 3 magus- in hand, 2 assemble in hand, a Gideon in hand and an ajani - in hand...( Oh, and a ghostly prison in the bin. Game 2, sir? One land would have wrecked him with those magi....
G 2 he gets an early sword of w an p, and is walking away with it- I have boarded out orings like a muppet. He forgets to pay a magus bar bill and I am back in it. I have to go to 1 life and bust in a sub optimal way. I take ages to recover my RW mana. Several times he nearly wins but prison keeps him out. I get him to 6 with 4 points of damage on the table, and curse the fact I failed to hit him earlier with a mana land.
I sow the game up-with landkill and prisons- but time is called and it is one nil to him......
Had he not paid a magus bill he would have had the game easily- unusual as it is one of my best matchups.
R4 USA control- all spells almost.
I get G1 on the draw- burying him with t2/3 landkill and repeated doeses- killing his resolved Ajani after a struggle- but win beacause assemble the legion sticks......
G2 I scoop after he gets good control- I am one mana short on a mana leaked boil that would have left him on 2 land......(
G3 We play- I go nuts on landkill from t2 and resolve sceptres and Ajani I think- usual story. He gets an ajani which is dealt with twice. Time is called but he is on 2 land, nothing else, 1 color and few cards in hand to my 12 land...he scoops as he knows he is out of the game, rather graciously. A quick deck check reveals the game was indeed mine v soon- there is no way back from that level of landkill, and his bin was devoid of card draw.....
Thoughts I am 5 wins, 2 draws and a loss with the current build.
The 2 PWs are still dodgy as hell- they often seem to be win more or do nothing. Assemble is superb. I want to try blind obedience and shrine of burning rage instead of the pwlkrs- if it does not work I will run one more assemble the legion no 3 and another runed halo. I still want more t2 action though. Sceptres are worth their weight in gold.
I have mulliganed 5 times in total in 8 matches- 3 in the hatebear match. The mana is nets are superb- way better than it was, signets are great and the scrying temples of triumph are really good, despite my initial fears about them - I can use more fetches, but at the moment I prefer to keep them to a minimum - I have flagstone fetch as it is.....
V sorry to miss this - chalice is really a legacy card- so much in modern costs more than one, unlike legacy- and by the time you hit 4 to make it have an impact they often have board presence- ........
abrupt decay is factor too. I feel it is a board card at best.
I think with boom bust it is a 4 of with lots of other land destruction, or it is a two of as an 'geddon effect. Running it with wildfire never worked for me- they often did the same thing effectively at least when using bust. I known the original stax lists well and I agree queller is clunky- the original article said the deck does not want stone rain- which I feel is both wrong and right- it either wants a bucketful of them and concentrate on taxing or none.....
I think shattering spree is a total and utter waste of two valuable board slots, btw. It is so narrow- Vs affinity for example- you get halo for hard to deal with etched champion, prison to slow them down en masse and o-ring for equipment. You can have wrath effects, queller naming artifact every turn, etc. All the tools are there to hurt it. It is a low land deck and vulnerable to mana disruption. Aura of silence is a *much* better board card, assuming you do not/can't use stony silence- it being a selective tax and a disenchant, and being useful vs a whole host of other decks - twin, boggles, ad nauseam and other lotus bloom/prism decks, eggs, tokens (there are lots of targets) and many other decks. It also stops the all in ravager kill route. We need so much flexability, and spree just does not have it.....
In every version of the deck I have beaten affinity regularly- with a good percentage- if you find yourself losing to it a few tweaks should fix it.
CRACK THE EARTH
Then later on Kiki + Restoration Angel to steal the win?
Modern: Top Control -- UWx Titan -- Loam Pox -- Footsteps Hulk
Legacy: Doomsday -- Death and Taxes -- UR Stasis -- Sylvan Plug
Pauper: UB Teachings -- UR Nivix Control
On a separate note, as people may know from my last two reports my latest version of stax-landkill is 5W, 2D (bloody 40 min rounds), 1L.
Having lost to my own loaned hatebear GW deck it was easy to get the same player to play it for an hour last night after draft, just to look again at the match. As I suspected the result were in my favour, winning the games on play and draw.
I have finally dropped all planeswalkers, as I kept finding gideon to be either win more, a fog vs affinity, or a non win con vs USA control, if they had white or an uncracked fetch. It is assemble no 3.
Ajani has always been better- it may come back, or I may try a solitary bridge. For now it is a ratchet bomb- utility and another t2 play. Not sure about my tokens match, for one, want another t2 play for another.
Sceptre of dominance kept a baneslayer off me from a naked board position for ages in one game-10 turns- whilst I built up impenetrable defenses and started ghostly taxing/landkill.
Had it been thrun I would have been in trouble.
In another game on the play I hit t2 and 3 landkill, t4 magus, t5 sceptre......:)
The sceptre really is ideal.
For now I have gone to 3 assemble the legion- which I never realised is often defensive in the first 2-3 turns- making chumpers before more prison cards come down. Deciding whether to keep an army of tokens with a magus down or not can swing it from 3/4 damage to 9-10.
Waste Not http://www.mtgstocks.com/prints/24857 It's now below my predicted $3 / $10 foil.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" -Evelyn Beatrice Hall
If I've offended you; don't take things so personal, grow up or you were in the wrong and I called you on your BS.
DECKS
Modern
BURGrixis TwinBUR
BRGJundBRG
WBTokensWB
URMerfolkUR
BDiscardB
WRControlWR
WBGMelira PodWBG
WGAura HexproofWG
URStormUR
WUBRGTribal ZooWUBRG
Affinity
WBRSquee's PoxWBR
WUGEnduring IdealWUG
WUErayo's QuestWU
UBRVile WizardsUBR
UGPolymorphUG
Legacy
BReanimatorB
GRCharbelcherGR
WUBRGRector Omni-ShowWUBRG
UDredgeU
BRGJundBRG
2 Spellskite
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Instant/Sorcery
2 Lightning Helix
2 Pyroclasm
2 Anger of The Gods
Artifact
2 Boros Signet
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
Enchantment
4 Blood Moon
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Assemble The Legion
4 Ajani Vengeant
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
Land
4 Arid Mesa
8 Plains
6 Mountain
1 Rugged Prairie
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Stony Silence
3 Rest in Peace
3 Boil
2 Defense Grid
2 Combust
1 Spellskite
1 Leyline of Sanctity
With 3 Boil (used in responce to their spell on the end of your turn works just fine) 2 Defense Grid (an early Grid turn 1 or 2 usually locks them out for you to play the rest of your board control), 2 Combust (bye bye colonade, clique, exarch or pestermite!) and an additional Spellskite, games 2 and 3 are usually easy vs RWU. VS other blue decks I just don't need the spellskite.
I saw mentioned by Mark "chalice is really a legacy card- so much in modern costs more than one, unlike legacy- and by the time you hit 4 to make it have an impact they often have board presence- ........
abrupt decay is factor too. I feel it is a board card at best." But honestly Chalice is a powerhouse in modern. 8rack, Infect, Affinity, Bogles, RDW, Storm are all great examples. But just about EVERY modern deck plays 1 drops; Jund-ten+ 1 drops, Tron-sixteen 1 drops, Delver.deck- sixteen+ 1 drops, Merfolk twelve+ 1 drops. The list goes on and on, and just like Defense Grid can be played turn 1 with a spirit guild... infact my favorite turn 1 is land+spirit guide+ chalice for 1. That's also why I don't play bolt or path... and have had just about no issues doing so.
Waste Not http://www.mtgstocks.com/prints/24857 It's now below my predicted $3 / $10 foil.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" -Evelyn Beatrice Hall
If I've offended you; don't take things so personal, grow up or you were in the wrong and I called you on your BS.
DECKS
Modern
BURGrixis TwinBUR
BRGJundBRG
WBTokensWB
URMerfolkUR
BDiscardB
WRControlWR
WBGMelira PodWBG
WGAura HexproofWG
URStormUR
WUBRGTribal ZooWUBRG
Affinity
WBRSquee's PoxWBR
WUGEnduring IdealWUG
WUErayo's QuestWU
UBRVile WizardsUBR
UGPolymorphUG
Legacy
BReanimatorB
GRCharbelcherGR
WUBRGRector Omni-ShowWUBRG
UDredgeU
BRGJundBRG
On chalice - its all relative.... I am simply pointing out it is not the nuts it is in legacy.
Legacy chalice at one happens off the sollands or moxen t1 (so in other words if chalice is in your opening hand you will have 8+ lands that allow it to be dropped t1, plus 4 moxen- i.e. often)
In modern the only way I can think of it coming down t1 is SSg, in an affinity deck, or gemstone luck counter nonsense.
In both formats they can always drop a relevant turn one play if they are on the play, the difference is more often in modern on the draw we would not be able to cast it till they have had a second bite at the one drop cherry- enough to set up a tron deck, say, or for their hand disruption to go off in a black deck (not that I worry about tron with my landkill). The odds of both guide and chalice being in the opening 7 +1 are not that high compared to the solland/mox legacy suite.
I played legacy stax yesterday [went 4-1] and saw chalice @ 1 t1 on the play- sweep, or t1 chalice t2 another play- sweep. There were a few chalices in the room for sure, and when they resolve people can be dead a turn later. That is the power level of the card in legacy. I guess in modern I am bit underwhelmed by it.
One of my *****es about the modern format is the lack of good one drops in d and t. Indeed one drop men in general.
Vial is great on the play- the one drop men for it really are pretty awful. D and T sometimes fails to play one drops sometimes aside from vial and path.
Generally mana dorks are good one drops in the format, as is the discard suite and some counterspells for non critters.
But the men are distinctly underwhelming to me (eg curse catcher sometimes failing to make merfolk-n speak to mfolk players and they hate having to run it), at least now that drs has gone....goblin guides, dryad militants (please no), figures of destiny, one drop sac outlets. Not much in general man wise.
The blue cantrips suck (horray!), and even the rituals cost more than one, leaving chalice at one to kill off enemy mana dorks, and removal spells, which are high quality. There are some decks like martyr, delver and infect that it really hurts of course. And plenty it interacts with positively. But t1 chalice- scoop is just not on the cards.
I must admit I would have a hard time blind casting chalice at one of SSG in an environment that is abrupt decay heavy. I certainly would not count jund or rock's one drops in the calculation- the 4 abrupt decay and pulses see to that- the format is rife with flexi removal- orings, pridemages, toolbox men etc. Stopping decks casting a chunk of their cards ( but often not their first one or two 1cc drops) for a while from t2 and more often t3 is just very different to stopping nearly every card in a deck- including gamewinning tutors and combo pieces and a superb maniplation of libraries- often vs deck having no way of removing the chalice.
Final point- when quoting how many one drops they have it is worth not counting vapor snag, path etc. for obvious reasons....
1 plain
4 sacred foundry
1 tectonic edge
2 darksteel citadel
2 mystifying maze
4 flagstones of trokair
1 rugged prairie
2 ghitu encampment
2 arid mesa
3 temple of triumph
3 boros signet
4 lightning helix
1 runed halo
2 oblivion ring
4 ghostly prison
3 magus of the tabernacle
3 assemble the legion
2 sceptre of dominance
1 molten rain
4 stone rain
4 boom // bust
1 bottled cloister
2 guttural response
2 boil
3 leyline of sanctity
3 rest in peace
3 aura of silence
1 runed halo
1 flexi-slot (eg shining shoal, bridge, response 3, trinisphere)
note - I do own fetches, I am choosing to minimise them- this is due to the requirement of running flagstones in a very red/white deck- -they needs plains, and fetches rapidly diminish the plain count, making them a really bad draw late on. >=3 fetches rapidly deplete the flagstone usefulness, as shown by many events- in a deck that goes long this is important. I am even considering another cip temple- the scry is really useful.
Waste Not http://www.mtgstocks.com/prints/24857 It's now below my predicted $3 / $10 foil.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" -Evelyn Beatrice Hall
If I've offended you; don't take things so personal, grow up or you were in the wrong and I called you on your BS.
DECKS
Modern
BURGrixis TwinBUR
BRGJundBRG
WBTokensWB
URMerfolkUR
BDiscardB
WRControlWR
WBGMelira PodWBG
WGAura HexproofWG
URStormUR
WUBRGTribal ZooWUBRG
Affinity
WBRSquee's PoxWBR
WUGEnduring IdealWUG
WUErayo's QuestWU
UBRVile WizardsUBR
UGPolymorphUG
Legacy
BReanimatorB
GRCharbelcherGR
WUBRGRector Omni-ShowWUBRG
UDredgeU
BRGJundBRG
sol land is not sol ring plus land!
Hoping I don't get a warning for discussing legacy terms on a modern primer......
sol lands are
city of traitors
ancient tomb
and the sometimes played as sol land 9-12
crystal vein
moxen are
mox diamond
in stax, splashed pox
and
chrome mox
in certain other decks.
Obviously this does not apply in legacy affinity when its mox opal!
All are most certainly legal....!
in the last two months...from mtg top 8
3.4 vapor snags on average.
vs
0.9 spell pierce.
Only two merfolk decks did not run 4.
Opinions on what they should play are irrelevant- they run 4 vapor snag, so that is what should be prepared for.