You are definitely correct there, any deck with a Ghost Quarter does destroy T&N. I've been considering going for a more midrange style of devotion for a while now considering that glaring weakness and not having the full set of T&N, but haven't played for a bit so just went with what I had, and was happily surprised with the results.
Early removal is something that I have been meaning to fit in somewhere, easiest would probably be bolts or Beast Within. Maybe Dismember considering how little damage I take from my own manabase? I'll have to think on it.
More than likely would move the second Scavenging Ooze to the side, remove the Hornet Queen from the MB, and the two Umbral Mantle for removal would be good, giving me 4 slots for it. Something like this:
Definitely worth trying out. Just don't know what I should use or how to split it. Maybe 2x Beast Within and 2x Dismember, to handle non-creature permanents as well?
I have been eyeing your GW Walkers, since I already have most of the Planewalkers myself, just those fetches and shocks that are really setting me off from trying it out myself.
First off: I doing this for myself, too. I want to know how good or bad are my probabilities and if this card is worth to play. I think that following is reading more like Notes as a normal Text.
Reason // Believe is a little bit like one way ticket/using of Nissa, Steward of Elements. It has Scry and can Cheat Creatures into play. You can even wait with the second Mode with both cards and this is very important to get the right moment.
I didn't know how Channelfireball have exatly calculated it: my Numbers are very close, too. For me as a amateur , it is Ok.
4 Fatties 21% and with 8 Fatties 39% (and with 5 26%)
The Chance to Cheat-in one of all our Creatures is around 42%. Ok, 6 Mana for a Arbor Elf is worse, but we have "draw" an additional card and speed up our Deck. The Next Card could be the Chance to change the Game. Usually you will not play this card if you didn't know what is coming, but this better as nothing if you have the Mana but not a way to spend it. A Situation that come often against grindy Decks with Discard.
Especially Courser of Kruphix on board doing here a great Job. We see our Top of our Library and can play the land on Top. This make (hopefully) the way free to use the Aftermath in our Graveyard. Population size ( 7 Starhand and 3 cards drawn in Turn3) : 50
Number of successes in population (4 high Mana creatures): 4
Sample size(Play a land from Courser and/or 1 Fetchland on Board) : 2
Number of successes in sample (1)
15,5% is the Chance to see a Fattie on Top that is not really high, with samplesize 1 the Chance is only 10%
but with 20 remaining creatures in the Deck our Chance is 64% and even with a samplesize 1, the Chance is still 40%. And there are creatures like Polukranos, World Eater that i have not counted to the high Mana Creatures. Ok, that's not so great, but we have every round our Chance to see what we want to play.
At the moment i have 16 cards + 8 Fetchlands that can manipulate the top library --> 90% one or more in the Starthand. Every draw, scry or shuffle change the topcard. And 11 ( 6 permanent revealed + 5 scry ) cards to look on the Top of the library --> 77% one or more in Starthand --> turn two it is 86%. Seems good for the second Deckplan (Cheat in play with Believe )
.....Now , if i think over the numbers, i hope i do it right and did no big failures in this. Ok, that was interesting, but i believe that i'm not smarter than before. I really must play this Card and do a tally how it performed.
The Feeling
Why play this card? It is real great Support Card and very special. The Situation is not uncommon that we have Ramp but no "ManaSinks"/Finisher or we have the big guys on the hand but not the Ramp to bring it on. scry3 for U is great help to fix this Problem. After that we have later a nice PayOff or at worst a expensive Card-Draw.
To know what is coming and the chance to play a creature for 5 that speed up the Deckplan - feels incredible good.
I have searched for interesting 4 Mana Creatures and found him: Deadbridge Goliath. If you search a good Vanilla Fighter. And Scavenge can be funny even on a Arbor Elf --> 6/6 .
I have looked for new Big-Guys , too. Steel Hellkite have some nice benifits and the second ability is interesting. but to use it, you must deal combat damage. Sylvan Primordial destroy a nocreature permanent...yummy, but no trample.
@dude892
Good Luck. Your Deck look solid to me.
@CurdBros
Thank you for your Comment. That help a lot if you know that someone read what are you doing. And you do a good Job in this Thread to answer to all Ideas/Decks/Cards/Variants and Ideas.
Well that hypergeometric calculator is awesome! Thank you for the link!
I have used the Hyergeometric calculator to analyze Genesis Hydra a card that I am really on the fence about. Since I don't know if anyone else is playing G/W Walker Devotion, this is mostly for you @CurdBros and my own reference of course. I'm not 100 percent sure that these numbers are correct, because the scenarios are different than the given scenarios on StatTrek with a regular deck of playing cards, but the numbers seem sensible to me. It's not factoring in that we have draw our initial hand and also drawn some cards over the course of turns. Luckily, I don't think this fact actually has an effect on the results, but I'd need to ask a mathematician to be sure.
According to the hpyergeometric calculator, when you cast Hydra in which x=4, the chance of hitting a permanent is just around 89.3 percent. I have 25 cards that can be hit. Many of those cards are not even that great. Hitting a mana dork when you're already producing 6 mana isn't that great. You can hope for a Planeswalker THAT YOU DON'T already have on the battlefield, or the next best thing would be an Oath. There are 12 Planeswalkers with CC is X is less than or equal to 4 (I would use symbols but MTGSalvation won't allow it ). The chance of hitting a Planeswalker is 60 percent. Meh.
When you cast Hydra where x=5 the number of successful targets goes up to 29, and there is an 96.9 percent chance of hitting a target. The number of Planeswalkers hits goes up to 16, and there is an 80 percent chance of hitting a planeswalker. Also, there are 2 new Planeswalker at CC 5 cc to hit (two copies of each), so less chance you can only choose a walker you already have on the battlefield. This is considerably better than casting Hydra where x=4.
So... taking into account these percentages, I would rate a Hydra at x=3 a bad card with a low potential to be good, at x=4 a mediocre card with medium potential to be very good, and at x=5 a very good card with a high potential to be excellent.
Perhaps Hydra could be better in another deck, but I doubt it.
This is why I don't really want to be casting Hydra in which x is less than 5. Since 6 or 7 mana is a lot this means Hydra can potentially be stuck in our hand or we can cast it as a weak card for less, and we already go over the top with Planeswalkers, so I don't think it's necessary to have a lategame trump card. I was thinking about removing Hydra altogether, and after crunching the numbers I'm even more convinced, and replacing it with just a good ol' Kitchen Finks which combos with the +1 +1 counter plan. I have 3 of them in the sideboard and so that would free up 3 sideboard slots! I'm also considering Avatar of the Resolute since it's a 2 drop with 2 devotion and can be a big threat mid-late game, and also Undergrowth Champion which can grow to be a big threat and potentially be a invincible wall to protect our walkers.
Evenstill, it's fair to assume that casting Hydra as a poop creature early, that has potentially to be great if cast later, won't be detrimental to the deck. In certain matchups it very well may be just fine, but in many it won't be, so I'm inclined to think we need more out of an early game card. For now I will be using Finks, since I think it can be a good blocker against fast aggro decks including Grixis Shadow, and help in the burn matchup, it can have 9 lives in our deck, and can get aggressive early.
EDIT: Hydra is actually better after sideboarding, since we have low CC cards we want to hit Like Eidolon of Rhetoric and Wheel of Sun and Moon. Perhaps it could be a sideboard card . But right now I'm lacking Tron hate. Stony Silence would be great but it makes Ballista bad, I think it still may be worth it for all the artifact decks and R/G Tron.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
You didn't face against any Ghost Quarter decks, and I'm really afraid to play T&N becuase it relies so much on enchantment ramp which can be shut down by Ghost Quarters which is a very popular card.
You also have no early removal which means you don't have much defense against fast creature decks or creature combo decks like Chord, Evolution and even Baral Storm.
@CurdBros
What do you think of Maulfist Revolutionary? I'm trying to find a card to replace the 3rd Genesis Hyrda. I'm sure it's too weak. Gilder Bairn is potentially much better and one of my all time favorite cards that I really want to break, but because of the untap ability I don't think it fits in this deck. It would be better with Chord.
I suppose I can't really go wrong with Eternal Witness or even a fourth Birds.
Also, I've been trying to figure out a way to abuse counters in Modern. I haven't been able to build a deck yet, I know there's the artifact deck with Charge counters and Astral Cornucopia, but I'd like to make a Planeswalker deck.
I'm thinking that with all the fast mana, Viral Drake could be an interesting card in a U/G Planeswalker deck. The problem I see with U/G lists is it doesn't overwhelm as fast as G/W. The Selesnya version can produce a lot of big tokens fast. They serve as aggressive creatures and can threaten a very fast Overrun kill with Garruck, but also blockers so our Walkers don't die as we establish a more powerful board. It can go over the top of most creature decks with all the Planeswalkers and huge Ballistas.
EDIT:
@CurdBros Avatar of the Resolute seems good in this version. Provides two devotion early and can be very big Trampler later in the game. I will try him in place of the 3rd Hydra.
I was a HUGE fan of Maulfist Revolutionary when it was printed. It is a decent creature in its own right and the trample is a BIG deal when you start putting +1/+1 counters on it. She actually was created when they were still utilizing Proliferate in Aether Revolt. It was a mechanic in Aether Revolt for some time in development but was eventually removed. They liked her so much that they removed "Proliferate" from her (so as not to confuse anything I think) and left her in. I have tested her in the past, but not in this build. She actually fits better here than in any other build I've ever tested her in. I might have to give it a try.
Other cards I'm think I'm considering and/or adding to the sideboard
Gideon's Intervention or Nevermore - since we currently have no defense against All is Dust and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon and all of Titanshift. These cards would really help in those matchups, and can also help vs Combo. I'm not sure right now between Nevermore or Gideon's, but I'm thinking since speed is super important vs Storm, Nevermore is the right choice.
The single Elspeth, Sun's Champion in the main is kind of loose, I'll cut that for a single Genesis Hydra for now.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Alright, this deck is seriouSly LEGIT! I am crushing people, and I seem to not be able to lose vs Island in my previous versions as well.
I've played 3 matches so far with the current list, all decks I consider to be Tier 1.
VS. Creg Wescoe's Vegas Top 8 G/W Weenies I won 2-0 (Tier 1)
- It was tough, ultimately I outvalued and and overwhelmed them both games
VS. U/B Faeries which top 32'd Vegas I won it 2-1 (Tier 1)
- Couldn't deal with all my Planeswalkers and Ajani just got too much value. The game 2 I scooped on turn 4 because I got stuck on lands twice in a row!
VS. Grixis Control I won 2-0 (Tier 1)
- Any control deck is going to struggle immensely vs. resolved Planeswalkers and Ajani Mentor plus Finks is unbeatable here.
So far 3-0 in matches and 6-1 in games.
More matches
VS. G/W Vizier I won 2-1 (Tier 1)
- I actually won 2-0 at first because game 1 he missed a land drop or two, my start was super fast, and so he scooped. Game 2 I won fair and square, but I offered to discount game 1 and continue the match. He won the next game, and I won the game after. Ballista plus Ajani is too strong for any weenie deck unless they find removal for Ballista before I can pump it.
I entered a bigger prized tournament today with the deck after playing the matches above, and of course I get paired with the deck I think is our literal worst matchup. Bant Eldrazi. Displacer can bounce tokens, Ballista, Hydra and remove counters from nontoken creatures and clear the way to kill Planeswalkers, and Smasher is also great at killing Planeswalkers. I did win game 1 barely, although I think I could have trounced him if I didn't make a big mistake and nearly throw the game. Game 2 and 3 he had the best hand it can have of turn 1 Noble, turn 2 TKS, turn 3 Smasher. I still put up a fight. I'm going up to 3 Path to Exile from 2 because I think it's extremely key against any deck running big Eldrazi and also Grixis Shadow. Also minimizing the chance of losing to G/W Vizier before finding a Ballista.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
I am currently buying into this version of the deck, which is pretty much the same as the one posted by Ross Merriam:
And I was wondering, before I do buy said deck, whether there are any changes I should make to beat the standard modern gauntlet, or if it is fine as it is.
Alright, this deck is seriouSly LEGIT! I am crushing people, and I seem to not be able to lose vs Island in my previous versions as well.
I've played 3 matches so far with the current list, all decks I consider to be Tier 1.
VS. Creg Wescoe's Vegas Top 8 G/W Weenies I won 2-0 (Tier 1)
- It was tough, ultimately I outvalued and and overwhelmed them both games
VS. U/B Faeries which top 32'd Vegas I won it 2-1 (Tier 1)
- Couldn't deal with all my Planeswalkers and Ajani just got too much value. The game 2 I scooped on turn 4 because I got stuck on lands twice in a row!
VS. Grixis Control I won 2-0 (Tier 1)
- Any control deck is going to struggle immensely vs. resolved Planeswalkers and Ajani Mentor plus Finks is unbeatable here.
So far 3-0 in matches and 6-1 in games.
More matches
VS. G/W Vizier I won 2-1 (Tier 1)
- I actually won 2-0 at first because game 1 he missed a land drop or two, my start was super fast, and so he scooped. Game 2 I won fair and square, but I offered to discount game 1 and continue the match. He won the next game, and I won the game after. Ballista plus Ajani is too strong for any weenie deck unless they find removal for Ballista before I can pump it.
I entered a bigger prized tournament today with the deck after playing the matches above, and of course I get paired with the deck I think is our literal worst matchup. Bant Eldrazi. Displacer can bounce tokens, Ballista, Hydra and remove counters from nontoken creatures and clear the way to kill Planeswalkers, and Smasher is also great at killing Planeswalkers. I did win game 1 barely, although I think I could have trounced him if I didn't make a big mistake and nearly throw the game. Game 2 and 3 he had the best hand it can have of turn 1 Noble, turn 2 TKS, turn 3 Smasher. I still put up a fight. I'm going up to 3 Path to Exile from 2 because I think it's extremely key against any deck running big Eldrazi and also Grixis Shadow. Also minimizing the chance of losing to G/W Vizier before finding a Ballista.
I'm so pumped to hear it is doing so well! You're outline is awesome!
You may be right on playing Genesis Hydra main...I do love it against control decks; but could just side it in. I'll give that a try.
I've made a few small changes as well and will rest them tonight. I currently have a kinda silly win rate; but I'm sure it will even put the more I test.
The 3 toughness really hurts; but the ability is great.
Random thought; but thought it was worth mentioning as someone just asked me about it today. We'll obviously have plenty of time to actually discuss this (and other great card like the 1-drop enchantment, etc.) when Ixalan is actually spoiled for real 😳
Definitely an interesting card. I don't think it would see play in the deck, but I could imagine the scenario it would be played in. Cast him, following turn make like 3-4 lands 1/1s for 3 mana each and then -1 Nissa and Ulit Garruk.
I'd like to mention that I have turn 4 killed people numerous times with this deck by ulti'ing garruk.
Since I now have 2x Nevemore, plus 3x Stony Silence, plus 3x Path, plus 2x Wheel of Sun and Moon, I have a lot of Ad Nauseuum and Gifts storm hate. Enough that I could remove 1-2 cards for a other sideboard options.
Matches Update:
VS. Eldrazi Tron, I Win 2-1
- He wins game 1 with too much aggression. I win game 2 with a turn 4 garruk ulti. And game 3 I out-Tron Tron with Karn and like 3 other Planeswalkers. He never pulls All is Dust or a timely Smasher.
A concern I have is playing againt Flyers, since they can just fly over our endless blockers to kill Planeswalkers. I haven't had a matchup vs Lingering Souls, but I can definitely foresee this happening. It why Smasher is one of the banes of this deck because it's the only real big Trampler that sees heavy play. This deck can usually win if we can keep our Walkers alive. I'm not sure how to remedy this issue. It makes Avatar of the Resolute more appealing because it has Reach, but the card is so much less resilient than Finks, ESPECIALLY IN THIS DECK. I've been looking at Arashi, the Sky Asunder and Cloudthresher. I'm wondering if Firespout could be good. If so, adding a Stomping Ground may be worthwhile.
I suppose Ballista can be enough to deal with Lingering Souls.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
This list looks great. I like the addition of Xenagos, and I've been eyeing that card recently wondering if it was possible to make a R/G Walker list. Your list has a total of 9 Planeswalkers making it nearly a Walker list. My G/W Walker deck has 16 Walkers for comparison.
I'm curious how Courser and Blood Moons worked out for you? It's interesting that you have 3 Courser and 1 Finks, because I've seen many lists with the exact opposite setup of just 1 Courser and 3 Ewit or Finks. I suppose since you have only 3 Pacts and no other tutor cards, being able to see the top card and know if you should fetch or keep it on top can be great, and get some card advantage over time (if it stays around).
I'm also curious about Dragonlord, because I find it to be the weakest card in your list. Out of all the Devotion decks I've brewed (a lot), I've never played Atarka. I just thought there were better options for that effect (e.g. Hornet Queen, Walking Ballista, Polukranos, World Eater). Though in a pact version it could be ok.
In regards to Prime Time. It's a good finisher because it ramps you, find the Kessig which can be used on your dorkier dudes, so it has an effect even it dies before it gets to attack, but IT DOES NOT hate on the opponents gameplan. When you fetch your fatty boom-boom, it makes sense that you want to be fetching something that can closeout the game and at the same time hate on our opponents gameplan. Prime Time is great in Pact decks because you can still have a lot of mana available the following turn to cast spells, since he effectively reduces the Pact upkeep cost by 2. The only time I would play Titan is if I'm in a Pact deck, and your reasoning to not include alongside Pact may very well be the right choice.
Your 75 is very weak to Storm, especially AD nauseum. I suppose Pact lists CAN have less hatecards for storm because they can win turn 3-4 as well. You have no way to slow them down, so it's basically a fast Ruric Thar, a turn 3-4 kill, or you lose.
And lastly, how did your white splash workout? I was worried that you wouldn't be able to get white man early consistently enough, but with 14 sources plus Oath maybe it's ok.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
@cincen
You are absolutely right. You can tutor wurmcoil engine with your primal commands. It appears I played pact to long to remember that there are tutors for non-green creatures
@hyperchord24
I played two spellskites in my sideboard when I started playing green devotion. At that time infect was considert the best deck and was omnipresent. After the probe ban it vanished completely (at least on my meta), making spellskite way less important. I think spellskite is desperately needed in a meta with infect and boggles and quite good against burn and zoo strategies, but I consider burn and zoo as good matchups for most devotion lists anyway. I think against death shadow decks its actively bad. It blocks pretty much nothing they play and can redirect a fatal push on a courser as the best case scenario. At least the grixis version plays little to no burn spells, that you can redirect profitably and kolaghans command is really strong against spellskites. If you are looking for anti deaths shadow sideboard tech, I would look into additional primal commands, chameleon colossus or any planeswalker that can produce tokens.
I attended a local pptq in Düsseldorf, Germany last weekend with 41 Players and wanted to give you guys a full tournament report aswell as some thoughts about the deck.
First of, here is the deck and some discussion concerning card choices.
As you can see its a toolbox list with pact as its tutor. After experimenting a lot with walker combo and even madcap experiment, i settled on this. I just love the speed and consistency of summoners pact. Most recent changes were (a) the light white splash for rest in peace and stony silence and (b) the addition of one and than even another xenagos.
(a): I do prefer sideboard cards that hose specific strategys over more flexible choices that make for a rather transitional sideboard. I tried to fight graveyard strategies with oozes and primal commands, which have the huge benefit of also beeing anti burn cards, but even if i drew one or two of them, they often times just werent enough to beat a deck like dredge or storm. Rest in peace completely shuts down any graveyard shananigans the moment it hits the battlefield. I love that kind of effect and the white splash is actually no big investment. Stony silence, blood moon and bonfire fall into the same category, as they oftentimes win the game on resolution or at least buy you enough time against the opposing strategy.
Another advantage of strong but rather narrow sideboard cards is, that you dont overboard with them and dilute your own strategy too much, which is a thing green devotion decks can easily suffer from. We still need to keep a critical mass of green permanents and we need to keep a reasonable curve in games 2 and 3, which is why I prefer bringing 3-5 very strong sideboard cards over bringing in 5-10 sideboard cards, that improve the matchup slightly.
(b): I expected to see a lot of grixis death shadow, since the deck is dominating modern right now (note dominating means about 10% of the meta, which I think is a great thing about modern). My thought was, that ds decks like any other black midrange deck struggle the most against our token producing planeswalkers. So xenagos as my garruks 5 and 6 were an easy choice and i was very pleased with them I have to say. In some situations xenagos is even better than garruk and he synergises very well with nissa voz.
Concerning my pact tatgets, i guess the most obvious difference to other lists is the absense of primeval titan. While it may seem like heresy, I think its just inferior to ruric thar in most circumstances. I played both, primetime and ruric in my mainboard for quite some time and i found myself pacting for ruric nearly every single time. Its great in a surprising amount of matchups. Its one of our strongest weapons against combo decks, a fast clock and a good blocker all at the same time. While the floor of the card is forcing a removal spell plus shooting 6 to the opponents face, the ceiling is locking your opponent out of playing spells all together. Another important aspect of the card is the combination of reach and vigilance. With all the planeswalkers and ground creatures the deck is pretty weak to flyers. That is why I chose my finishers with flying threats in mind. Ruric, atarka and hornet queen are all very good in keeping opposing flyers at bay.
Another thing I was looking for, when choosing my finishers is beeing able to fight eldrazi. Acidic slime, thragtusk, ruric thar, atatka, hornet queen and even crazerhoof all can block thought knot seer and reality smasher favorably. Turning the eldrazi matchup into a fair fight.
Now to the actual Report. We played 6 rounds followed by top 8 playing it out afterwards. I went 4-2 in matches which made me 11th place. Im very satisfied with this result.
Round 1 - Abzan:
I went 2-0 pretty easily. I had a bunch of planeswalkers in hand both games, so my opponent´s thoughtseizes couldn´t hit all of them (xenagos allready pulling its weight). The first game I saw 5 or 6 planeswalker in my top 20 cards. The second game I resolved a hornet queen round 4 with garruk and nissa out.
Sideboard:
In: 3 Blood Moon, 2 Bonfire
Out: 3 Oath of nissa, 1 Acidic Slime, 1 Burning-Tree
Didn´t cast any of the sb cards.
Round 2 - Living End:
I went 2-1. The first game was horrible. I didnt stand a chance, he could throw out 4-5 creatures with his living end eot leaving my lonely nissa unprotected. Game two I had rest in peace and blood moon in my opening hand shutting him out completely. He spent the rest of the game cycling away creatures into exile to find one of his two basic lands. Game 3 I had a rest in peace and an overall pretty fast hand which was enough to kill him without any resistance.
Sideboard:
In: 3 Blood Moon, 2 Rest in Peace, 2 Beast Within(to kill basic lands mainly)
Out: 3 Oath of Nissa, 3 Burning-Tree, 1 Hornet Queen
Round 3 - Vizier Combo:
I went 1-2: Game one he had the combo in round 3. Game two I had Gravediggers Cage, Bonfire and Beast Within in my opening hand. He even assambled the mana combo through the beast within, but had only companys and chords in his hand with my cage out, so he had to pass. Next turn I could bonfire away everything. Game three I can beast within his druid while he tries to cord for vizier, which buys me enough time to get a hornet queen out with pact for craterhoof in my hand an 8 mana on the field, but one turn too late. He combos me the next turn. This is a tough matchup.
Sideboard:
In: 1 Gravediggers Cage, 2 Bonfire, 2 Beast Within
Out: 3 Oath of Nissa, 1 Acidic Slime, 1 Thragtusk
Round 4 - Valakut:
I went 0-2. Anger of the gods hit me pretty hard both games, setting me back multiple turns. Game one I played an acidic slime, but still was one turn too slow. In game two I didnt see any of my sideboard cards, but got him down pretty low on life and managed to pact for a ruric thar, which kept him from casting any more noncreature spells, while he was only on 5 lands. He spirit guided out a primeval titan and shot my ruric down with his two valakut triggers Next turn he hit me for 27 damage or something.
In: 3 Blood Moon, 2 Beast Within
Out: 3 Oath, 1 Hornet Queen, 1 Atarka
Round 5 - Mono Blue Artificer Combo?
I went 2-1. I havent seen this deck before, but it plays a lot of cheap blue creatures and the 3 mana blue lord that lets them tap for 2 colourless. I thought it was some kind of artifact combo, but apperently its gameplan is just dumping their whole hand to the bord turn 3 and attacking with pumped up flyers and huge walking ballistas. Game one I was favored I think, but made the biggest blunder of the whole day: I forgot my own pact! (In my defense: It was round 5 and above 30°C in the room ) Game two he mulliganed to 4 or 5 while I had a dreamstart. Game three im pretty flooded and super slow, but he is srewed on 2 lands, not able to cast anything. When he finaly draws his land and assembles a board I topdeck Atarka and kill 3 creatures at once.
Sideboard:
In: 2 Ancient Grudge, 1 Reclamation Sage, 2 Bonfire
Out: 3 Oath, 1 Thragtusk, 1 Nissa
Round 6 - Mono White Hatebears:
I went 2-1. His opening hand is thalia and 4 path to exile, which is a fine hand against a lot of modern decks. I play a bunch of elfs, a garruk and a hornet queen, giving him no target at all. Game two he plays turn 2 arbiter plus gq on my enchanted land. I didnt resolve any other spell this game while he kills me quickly with a mirran crusader. Game 3 i mulligan to 6 and have a very good start with arbor elf, sprawl and garruk. I draw pact and can search for hornet queen even through an arbiter. Next turn i miracle a bonfire and thats game. My opponent was very salty at that point, because "nothing personal, but everytime you lose two rounds you get paired against some janky deck, with some stupid over the top gameplan."
Sideboarding:
In: 2 bonfire
Out: 2 oath
So that was my first pptq and i had a blast playing that deck. I take it to fnm on a weekly basis, but its great to see it can perform well in a bigger tournament. Thanks everyone for reading. I am grateful for any comment on the deck and im happy to answer any questions about it.
What an AWESOME breakdown.
I actually really like your list. I know I've said it in the past; but I do think Burning-Tree Emissary and Summoner's Pact go well together. I believe the combination of the two really creates speed in a devotion list that can't be obtained other ways without the use of Simian Spirit Guide. Beyond that, however, the deck is very balanced.
I have always been a fan of Xenagos, the Reveler. Obviously, it was in my very first Walker Combo list (as Xenagos, Garruk, and a Cloudstone Curio give you infinite 2/2 haste creatures under numerous circumstances) and he has been a part of pretty much every Grull and/or Temur list I've made in the past. Spitting out 2/2 haste Satyrs is great, but his mana ability can also be abused in devotion shells. And he is at that magic 4-CMC number that works well for walkers
To be entirely honest with you, I don't think I would change much with your list. It is balanced, and the weakness in the main for certain match ups seem to be taken care of as well as they can be in the sideboard...all in all; I'd say it is one of the best Pact Devotion lists I've seen.
Is Spellskite just not good enough anymore? Not that I know how to use it correctly, but isn't it good vs. death's shadow?
Spellskite is a perfectly reasonable card. It has applications that are very widespread. I think it used to be THE sideboard staple in the days of Infect, Twin, and even Boggles (when it was more popular) and thus has fallen out of favor from its height as likelly one of the most played cards in the entire format...but you are absolutely right that it probably should see more play than it currently does.
Definitely an interesting card. I don't think it would see play in the deck, but I could imagine the scenario it would be played in. Cast him, following turn make like 3-4 lands 1/1s for 3 mana each and then -1 Nissa and Ulit Garruk.
I'd like to mention that I have turn 4 killed people numerous times with this deck by ulti'ing garruk.
Since I now have 2x Nevemore, plus 3x Stony Silence, plus 3x Path, plus 2x Wheel of Sun and Moon, I have a lot of Ad Nauseuum and Gifts storm hate. Enough that I could remove 1-2 cards for a other sideboard options.
Matches Update:
VS. Eldrazi Tron, I Win 2-1
- He wins game 1 with too much aggression. I win game 2 with a turn 4 garruk ulti. And game 3 I out-Tron Tron with Karn and like 3 other Planeswalkers. He never pulls All is Dust or a timely Smasher.
A concern I have is playing againt Flyers, since they can just fly over our endless blockers to kill Planeswalkers. I haven't had a matchup vs Lingering Souls, but I can definitely foresee this happening. It why Smasher is one of the banes of this deck because it's the only real big Trampler that sees heavy play. This deck can usually win if we can keep our Walkers alive. I'm not sure how to remedy this issue. It makes Avatar of the Resolute more appealing because it has Reach, but the card is so much less resilient than Finks, ESPECIALLY IN THIS DECK. I've been looking at Arashi, the Sky Asunder and Cloudthresher. I'm wondering if Firespout could be good. If so, adding a Stomping Ground may be worthwhile.
I suppose Ballista can be enough to deal with Lingering Souls.
I tried some random sideboard cards (like Leyline and Worship) but not enough to say for certain they are needed)...although Worship was difficult for the opponent to win through so I will continue testing it. Right now, I'm really just testing sideboard cards to be honest. I feel like the main deck is in really good shape given the current meta.
I also tried a few of the other walkers just to see if there was any synergy there. I tried Ajani, Caller of Pride in particular (given its low cost, +1/+1 counter synergy, etc.) and while the double strike payoff could be outstanding....the fact that he doesn't do anything by himself (i.e. if played on turn two could really only give a counter to a dork if present) just didn't seem feasible...
There definitely is a G/R Walker list with walkers like Xenagos, Chandra (both the 4-drop and 6-drop)...I found it to be a little more "controlling" than the Selsnya version...but it is absolutely there. Xengos is certainly powerful though...I've played Naya in the past (as Oath really does make it very easy to cast along with Bird, Utopia Sprawl, etc.)
____
I know I talk about the fact that I play/test two different versions of Devotion at a time...I've been talking about the Selesnya one quite a bit; but for anyone interested in the other, I thought I'd post it below:
It kinda just follows the same ideas I tend to build into every Devotion deck:
1. Lots of card advantage/card draw (via ETB, Walkers, etc.)
2. A lot of mana-sinks to "smooth" things out
3. Focusing on a few individual cards (i.e. making the "best" Garruk, Ballista,
4. Trying to get answers in the main that are still synergistic (Ballista, Acidic Slime, etc.)
I've been focusing pretty heavily lately on the Selenya Walker list; but I do enjoy playing this as well. It is not quite a "finely tuned" yet (at least I'm not certain because I've been testing/playing the Selesnya Walkers list more lately)...but this deck really leads to HUGE Ballista's!
I know 4 copies of Nissa SOE is probably at least 1-too-many; but it is really good in the deck...it digs and works as a great win-condition as a "pseudo-fireball" with 10 haste/flying damage to the face...
** I can post my Selesnya Walker list as well; but Rendroc posted his above and it is VERY similar (as we've been tuning the list together since I originally posted it) so I don't want to waste any space. Rendroc has helped focus the list; and I think the list I'm testing is literally only 1 card different in the main...so there really is no point to post it again until any changes are maede. I will be adding them to my signature soon so they can be seen easily (and on TappedOut). **
I'm confident that any very competitive devotion list needs to have Walking Ballista to have a chance of Day 2'ing a GP or winning an SCG Classic/Open. There is really no the way to get early removal without weakening the aggression of the deck. You could splash white for Mainbiard Path, but Ballista can beefier Kate game from the ramp, and it can kill the early creatures you would want to hit with Path.
I will cut the Coursers and finks and see how that works out. I may change your sideboard a bit too, and I'll report back.
Against Tron and Titanshift, I found Terastodon to be great, it's also just game winning against many decks if you blow up 3 lands on turn 3 or 4.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Always wear protection kids, sleeve up your deck.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Very clean, traditional genesis wave list - just the way I like it. He's only playing 1 Wave 4 Primal commands though, I assume in order to grind out games. Interesting inclusion of Polukranos (probably as a pseudo removal spell if he untaps with it) and a singleton Oath of Nissa
Uhh, this topic is good.
In Short a little Basics:
Which Decks need Disruption (Discard, Removal, Landhate....) ?
This answer is simple: All Decks need it (and i know there are always some exceptions). So we have only some Options. Even the old Infect that was a incredible fast Deck is using Apostle's Blessing.
a)We fight trough alle the Disruption against our Opponent can throw at us , and do this with Resilence Cards and abilitys like Hexproof, Toughness, CardDraw, Persistence and so on..... We build our defense and do whatever our deck do.
b) Beeing aggresive is all about to disrupt the deckplan from your opponent with removal, discard, counter and so on....
c) The Deckplan is soooo straight, you just doing only your way --> Tooth&Nail has only Ramp into Finisher and nearly nothing else.
Walking Ballista is great, because he doing something from all:
a) with 2 he is a cheap chumpBlocker, with more Mana a Raodblocker
b) to shooting Damage is great and destroy all this perky support creatures from our opponent.
c) The X is in a ramp Deck always interesting and follow our Deckplan
To add the Walking Ballista in your Deck you did never a mistake, but i'm not sure if the Ballista is really the best choice. This need to be effective at minimum 4 Mana and sometimes you need against Combo and very fast aggresive Decks an early answer asap .
P.S.:
eek, why the heck i can't write a short text ?!? ...Nevermind
I'm confident that any very competitive devotion list needs to have Walking Ballista to have a chance of Day 2'ing a GP or winning an SCG Classic/Open. There is really no the way to get early removal without weakening the aggression of the deck. You could splash white for Mainbiard Path, but Ballista can beefier Kate game from the ramp, and it can kill the early creatures you would want to hit with Path...
I agree here...At least in the builds I've played recently in the meta; Walking Ballista has been incredible. It is my prime source of removal, a perfect mana-sink, and often deals the last few bits of damage to win the game. I can't count the times I've attacked with a Ballista and then second main removed counters to deal damage to close out the game.
I do think we have to have other forms of disruption available to us (as Ballista struggles removing bigger creatures early and of course doesn't affect most artifacts/enchantments); but I do think it is the best option we have for "general" creature removal in the main deck of most Green Devotion decks.
Very clean, traditional genesis wave list - just the way I like it. He's only playing 1 Wave 4 Primal commands though, I assume in order to grind out games. Interesting inclusion of Polukranos (probably as a pseudo removal spell if he untaps with it) and a singleton Oath of Nissa
This is truly awesome! While we work hard to develop new and competitive builds of devotion...its always nice to be reminded that the tried and true "Traditional" Devotion deck is still a viable deck in many environments. This is just straight up Traditional Devotion and looks great Hopefully he/she is on here every once and a while to know how much we appreciate them doing so well and keeping the Green Devotion archetype alive in the meta. I don't know why they called it "GR" instead of Green Devotion; but I'll see if I can write Seth/Saffron Olive to see if we can get it re-named.
Uhh, this topic is good.
In Short a little Basics:
Which Decks need Disruption (Discard, Removal, Landhate....) ?
This answer is simple: All Decks need it (and i know there are always some exceptions). So we have only some Options. Even the old Infect that was a incredible fast Deck is using Apostle's Blessing.
a)We fight trough alle the Disruption against our Opponent can throw at us , and do this with Resilence Cards and abilitys like Hexproof, Toughness, CardDraw, Persistence and so on..... We build our defense and do whatever our deck do.
b) Beeing aggresive is all about to disrupt the deckplan from your opponent with removal, discard, counter and so on....
c) The Deckplan is soooo straight, you just doing only your way --> Tooth&Nail has only Ramp into Finisher and nearly nothing else.
Walking Ballista is great, because he doing something from all:
a) with 2 he is a cheap chumpBlocker, with more Mana a Raodblocker
b) to shooting Damage is great and destroy all this perky support creatures from our opponent.
c) The X is in a ramp Deck always interesting and follow our Deckplan
To add the Walking Ballista in your Deck you did never a mistake, but i'm not sure if the Ballista is really the best choice. This need to be effective at minimum 4 Mana and sometimes you need against Combo and very fast aggresive Decks an early answer asap .
P.S.:
eek, why the heck i can't write a short text ?!? ...Nevermind
I see what you are saying. You are right about how certain decks maintain certain strategies to deal with disruption:
1. Some (like many tooth and nail decks, some combo, etc.) have a very linear plan and focus on executing it as quickly as possible with as many "interchangeable" cards as possible to ensure they "get there".
2. Some (like the decks I play) focus on having as much "resource advantage" (card draw, card advantage, walkers, etc.) to play through the opponent's removal and simply overwhelm their answers (i.e. have more questions than they can answer).
3. Be so aggressive that the opponent can't cast all of their answers before they lose. This can be things like Stompy where the creatures are so efficient that even if the opponent is able to remove a few of them, they die with cards/disruption in hand.
I think all of the choices have merit. It really comes down to play preference. Green Devotion is built as a mechanic on having permanents on board (as devotion requires green mana symbols); so the strategy is constrained by this need of the mechanic...but all of the above can work. I of course think the seoond option is our best (having ample resource advantage and a little disruption of our own); but obviously the others have historical data to back up that they can and do perform as well. This is a good way to break down each devotion deck into a "Macro-Strategy" however....good discussion.
Very clean, traditional genesis wave list - just the way I like it. He's only playing 1 Wave 4 Primal commands though, I assume in order to grind out games. Interesting inclusion of Polukranos (probably as a pseudo removal spell if he untaps with it) and a singleton Oath of Nissa
But it is G/R Devotion, because it has a Red splash. It should really be named G/r Devotion to indicate the splash.
That deck isn't exactly the true traditional Devotion deck, but it's definitely a more basic version. The original Devotion decks I saw had 3 Genesis Wave which is too much because it's super expensive. If you want to go with a basic version, this list looks solid, except I'm not sure about the sideboard card choices and it doesn't seem balanced. He has 6 artifact hate cards! That's a lot.
It actually does have disruption maindeck with 4 Primal Command and 4 Witness, and a tutorable Ghost Quarter in a Tron matchup.
You could even add a Bojuka Bog in the sideboard.
Chandra could replace Karn, which I don't think is right, she could also just go in the sideboard, or maybe she's just not worth it altogether.
I could only imagine replacing Gideon with Xenagos, and Gideon is great because he presents a lot of aggression. But I'm down to a single Hydra maindeck and 1 sideboard that I could see potentially removing for Xenagos.
Btw, it's too bad Hour of Devastation came out because that card would get us good. Hopefully that doesn't start popping up in Modern.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
You are definitely correct there, any deck with a Ghost Quarter does destroy T&N. I've been considering going for a more midrange style of devotion for a while now considering that glaring weakness and not having the full set of T&N, but haven't played for a bit so just went with what I had, and was happily surprised with the results.
Early removal is something that I have been meaning to fit in somewhere, easiest would probably be bolts or Beast Within. Maybe Dismember considering how little damage I take from my own manabase? I'll have to think on it.
More than likely would move the second Scavenging Ooze to the side, remove the Hornet Queen from the MB, and the two Umbral Mantle for removal would be good, giving me 4 slots for it. Something like this:
3x Eternal Witness
4x Arbor Elf
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2x Primeval Titan
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
4x Voyaging Satyr
1x Xenagos, God of Revels
Planeswalker
2x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Nissa, Vital Force
1x Nissa, Worldwaker
4x Removal
Enchantment
4x Overgrowth
4x Utopia Sprawl
Land
16x Forest
1x Kessig Wolf Run
2x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Stomping Ground
Sorcery
2x Harmonize
4x Primal Command
2x Tooth and Nail
2x Fog
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Gaea's Revenge
1x Hornet Queen
2x Naturalize
1x Nylea, God of the Hunt
2x Orbs of Warding
1x Pithing Needle
2x Relic of Progenitus
Definitely worth trying out. Just don't know what I should use or how to split it. Maybe 2x Beast Within and 2x Dismember, to handle non-creature permanents as well?
I have been eyeing your GW Walkers, since I already have most of the Planewalkers myself, just those fetches and shocks that are really setting me off from trying it out myself.
First off: I doing this for myself, too. I want to know how good or bad are my probabilities and if this card is worth to play. I think that following is reading more like Notes as a normal Text.
Reason // Believe is a little bit like one way ticket/using of Nissa, Steward of Elements. It has Scry and can Cheat Creatures into play. You can even wait with the second Mode with both cards and this is very important to get the right moment.
In Short here is the reason why it need Setup in your Deck to use succesfully Reason // Believe.
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/magic-math-hour-of-devastation/
The probability to see one of our 4 "Fatties" is 19,5% with scry 3 .
Even with 8 Fatties it is only 35,9%
For my Calculations i use http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/hypergeometric.aspx (Hypergeometric Distribution ), but no worry, its easy to use. Here my Example:
Population Size (remaining Decksize after Starthand) : 53
Number in Successes in Population ( Number on Creatures to cheat in): 4
Sample Size (scry3): 3
Number in Success (1 creature to cheat in) : 1
(More explaining right here: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/brewer-s-minute-hypergeometric-distribution-in-deck-building ;-) )
I didn't know how Channelfireball have exatly calculated it: my Numbers are very close, too. For me as a amateur , it is Ok.
4 Fatties 21% and with 8 Fatties 39% (and with 5 26%)
The Chance to Cheat-in one of all our Creatures is around 42%. Ok, 6 Mana for a Arbor Elf is worse, but we have "draw" an additional card and speed up our Deck. The Next Card could be the Chance to change the Game. Usually you will not play this card if you didn't know what is coming, but this better as nothing if you have the Mana but not a way to spend it. A Situation that come often against grindy Decks with Discard.
In my Simic Devotion Deck we have a lot ways to scry or look on the Top of the library.
Nissa, Steward of Elements , Courser of Kruphix, Mul Daya Channelers , Condescend , Vizier of the Menagerie .
Especially Courser of Kruphix on board doing here a great Job. We see our Top of our Library and can play the land on Top. This make (hopefully) the way free to use the Aftermath in our Graveyard.
Population size ( 7 Starhand and 3 cards drawn in Turn3) : 50
Number of successes in population (4 high Mana creatures): 4
Sample size(Play a land from Courser and/or 1 Fetchland on Board) : 2
Number of successes in sample (1)
15,5% is the Chance to see a Fattie on Top that is not really high, with samplesize 1 the Chance is only 10%
but with 20 remaining creatures in the Deck our Chance is 64% and even with a samplesize 1, the Chance is still 40%. And there are creatures like Polukranos, World Eater that i have not counted to the high Mana Creatures. Ok, that's not so great, but we have every round our Chance to see what we want to play.
At the moment i have 16 cards + 8 Fetchlands that can manipulate the top library --> 90% one or more in the Starthand. Every draw, scry or shuffle change the topcard. And 11 ( 6 permanent revealed + 5 scry ) cards to look on the Top of the library --> 77% one or more in Starthand --> turn two it is 86%. Seems good for the second Deckplan (Cheat in play with Believe )
.....Now , if i think over the numbers, i hope i do it right and did no big failures in this. Ok, that was interesting, but i believe that i'm not smarter than before. I really must play this Card and do a tally how it performed.
The Feeling
Why play this card? It is real great Support Card and very special. The Situation is not uncommon that we have Ramp but no "ManaSinks"/Finisher or we have the big guys on the hand but not the Ramp to bring it on. scry3 for U is great help to fix this Problem. After that we have later a nice PayOff or at worst a expensive Card-Draw.
To know what is coming and the chance to play a creature for 5 that speed up the Deckplan - feels incredible good.
I have searched for interesting 4 Mana Creatures and found him: Deadbridge Goliath. If you search a good Vanilla Fighter. And Scavenge can be funny even on a Arbor Elf --> 6/6 .
I have looked for new Big-Guys , too.
Steel Hellkite have some nice benifits and the second ability is interesting. but to use it, you must deal combat damage.
Sylvan Primordial destroy a nocreature permanent...yummy, but no trample.
@dude892
Good Luck. Your Deck look solid to me.
@CurdBros
Thank you for your Comment. That help a lot if you know that someone read what are you doing. And you do a good Job in this Thread to answer to all Ideas/Decks/Cards/Variants and Ideas.
I have used the Hyergeometric calculator to analyze Genesis Hydra a card that I am really on the fence about. Since I don't know if anyone else is playing G/W Walker Devotion, this is mostly for you @CurdBros and my own reference of course. I'm not 100 percent sure that these numbers are correct, because the scenarios are different than the given scenarios on StatTrek with a regular deck of playing cards, but the numbers seem sensible to me. It's not factoring in that we have draw our initial hand and also drawn some cards over the course of turns. Luckily, I don't think this fact actually has an effect on the results, but I'd need to ask a mathematician to be sure.
According to the hpyergeometric calculator, when you cast Hydra in which x=4, the chance of hitting a permanent is just around 89.3 percent. I have 25 cards that can be hit. Many of those cards are not even that great. Hitting a mana dork when you're already producing 6 mana isn't that great. You can hope for a Planeswalker THAT YOU DON'T already have on the battlefield, or the next best thing would be an Oath. There are 12 Planeswalkers with CC is X is less than or equal to 4 (I would use symbols but MTGSalvation won't allow it ). The chance of hitting a Planeswalker is 60 percent. Meh.
When you cast Hydra where x=5 the number of successful targets goes up to 29, and there is an 96.9 percent chance of hitting a target. The number of Planeswalkers hits goes up to 16, and there is an 80 percent chance of hitting a planeswalker. Also, there are 2 new Planeswalker at CC 5 cc to hit (two copies of each), so less chance you can only choose a walker you already have on the battlefield. This is considerably better than casting Hydra where x=4.
So... taking into account these percentages, I would rate a Hydra at x=3 a bad card with a low potential to be good, at x=4 a mediocre card with medium potential to be very good, and at x=5 a very good card with a high potential to be excellent.
Perhaps Hydra could be better in another deck, but I doubt it.
This is why I don't really want to be casting Hydra in which x is less than 5. Since 6 or 7 mana is a lot this means Hydra can potentially be stuck in our hand or we can cast it as a weak card for less, and we already go over the top with Planeswalkers, so I don't think it's necessary to have a lategame trump card. I was thinking about removing Hydra altogether, and after crunching the numbers I'm even more convinced, and replacing it with just a good ol' Kitchen Finks which combos with the +1 +1 counter plan. I have 3 of them in the sideboard and so that would free up 3 sideboard slots! I'm also considering Avatar of the Resolute since it's a 2 drop with 2 devotion and can be a big threat mid-late game, and also Undergrowth Champion which can grow to be a big threat and potentially be a invincible wall to protect our walkers.
Evenstill, it's fair to assume that casting Hydra as a poop creature early, that has potentially to be great if cast later, won't be detrimental to the deck. In certain matchups it very well may be just fine, but in many it won't be, so I'm inclined to think we need more out of an early game card. For now I will be using Finks, since I think it can be a good blocker against fast aggro decks including Grixis Shadow, and help in the burn matchup, it can have 9 lives in our deck, and can get aggressive early.
EDIT: Hydra is actually better after sideboarding, since we have low CC cards we want to hit Like Eidolon of Rhetoric and Wheel of Sun and Moon. Perhaps it could be a sideboard card . But right now I'm lacking Tron hate. Stony Silence would be great but it makes Ballista bad, I think it still may be worth it for all the artifact decks and R/G Tron.
Thanks for reading
DECK BELOW
3x Birds of Paradise
4x Walking Ballista
3x Kitchen Finks
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Oath of Nissa
Planeswalker (17)
3x Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
3x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Elspeth Tirel
2x Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2x Karn Liberated
2x Windswept Heath
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Wooded Foothills
3x Temple Garden
5x Forest
1x Gavony Township
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
3x Eidolon of Rhetoric
3x Stony Silence
2x Beast Within
2x Wheel of Sun and Moon
2x Path to Exile
1x Genesis Hydra
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
I was a HUGE fan of Maulfist Revolutionary when it was printed. It is a decent creature in its own right and the trample is a BIG deal when you start putting +1/+1 counters on it. She actually was created when they were still utilizing Proliferate in Aether Revolt. It was a mechanic in Aether Revolt for some time in development but was eventually removed. They liked her so much that they removed "Proliferate" from her (so as not to confuse anything I think) and left her in. I have tested her in the past, but not in this build. She actually fits better here than in any other build I've ever tested her in. I might have to give it a try.
I also REALLY like the idea of Avatar of the Resolute. Will have to test that for sure.
Gideon's Intervention or Nevermore - since we currently have no defense against All is Dust and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon and all of Titanshift. These cards would really help in those matchups, and can also help vs Combo. I'm not sure right now between Nevermore or Gideon's, but I'm thinking since speed is super important vs Storm, Nevermore is the right choice.
The single Elspeth, Sun's Champion in the main is kind of loose, I'll cut that for a single Genesis Hydra for now.
DECK BELOW
3x Birds of Paradise
4x Walking Ballista
3x Kitchen Finks
1x Genesis Hydra
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Oath of Nissa
Planeswalker (17)
3x Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
3x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Elspeth Tirel
2x Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
2x Karn Liberated
2x Windswept Heath
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Wooded Foothills
3x Temple Garden
5x Forest
1x Gavony Township
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
3x Eidolon of Rhetoric
3x Stony Silence
2x Nevermore
2x Wheel of Sun and Moon
2x Path to Exile
1x Genesis Hydra
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
I'll test a bunch of games with this today and report back.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
I've played 3 matches so far with the current list, all decks I consider to be Tier 1.
VS. Creg Wescoe's Vegas Top 8 G/W Weenies I won 2-0 (Tier 1)
- It was tough, ultimately I outvalued and and overwhelmed them both games
VS. U/B Faeries which top 32'd Vegas I won it 2-1 (Tier 1)
- Couldn't deal with all my Planeswalkers and Ajani just got too much value. The game 2 I scooped on turn 4 because I got stuck on lands twice in a row!
VS. Grixis Control I won 2-0 (Tier 1)
- Any control deck is going to struggle immensely vs. resolved Planeswalkers and Ajani Mentor plus Finks is unbeatable here.
So far 3-0 in matches and 6-1 in games.
More matches
VS. G/W Vizier I won 2-1 (Tier 1)
- I actually won 2-0 at first because game 1 he missed a land drop or two, my start was super fast, and so he scooped. Game 2 I won fair and square, but I offered to discount game 1 and continue the match. He won the next game, and I won the game after. Ballista plus Ajani is too strong for any weenie deck unless they find removal for Ballista before I can pump it.
I entered a bigger prized tournament today with the deck after playing the matches above, and of course I get paired with the deck I think is our literal worst matchup. Bant Eldrazi. Displacer can bounce tokens, Ballista, Hydra and remove counters from nontoken creatures and clear the way to kill Planeswalkers, and Smasher is also great at killing Planeswalkers. I did win game 1 barely, although I think I could have trounced him if I didn't make a big mistake and nearly throw the game. Game 2 and 3 he had the best hand it can have of turn 1 Noble, turn 2 TKS, turn 3 Smasher. I still put up a fight. I'm going up to 3 Path to Exile from 2 because I think it's extremely key against any deck running big Eldrazi and also Grixis Shadow. Also minimizing the chance of losing to G/W Vizier before finding a Ballista.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
And I was wondering, before I do buy said deck, whether there are any changes I should make to beat the standard modern gauntlet, or if it is fine as it is.
6x Forest
1x Kessig Wolf Run
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Stomping Ground
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Acidic Slime
4x Arbor Elf
1x Courser of Kruphix
4x Eternal Witness
1x Hornet Queen
3x Kitchen Finks
1x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
3x Scavenging Ooze
4x Walking Ballista
1x Whisperwood Elemental
2x Banefire
1x Genesis Wave
2x Primal Command
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
3x Oath of Nissa
4x Utopia Sprawl
I'm so pumped to hear it is doing so well! You're outline is awesome!
You may be right on playing Genesis Hydra main...I do love it against control decks; but could just side it in. I'll give that a try.
I've made a few small changes as well and will rest them tonight. I currently have a kinda silly win rate; but I'm sure it will even put the more I test.
I'll post some more tonight.
http://www.mythicspoiler.com/ixa/cards/wakerofthewilds.html
The 3 toughness really hurts; but the ability is great.
Random thought; but thought it was worth mentioning as someone just asked me about it today. We'll obviously have plenty of time to actually discuss this (and other great card like the 1-drop enchantment, etc.) when Ixalan is actually spoiled for real 😳
I'd like to mention that I have turn 4 killed people numerous times with this deck by ulti'ing garruk.
@CurdBros what cards are you testing?
DECK BELOW
4x Arbor Elf
3x Birds of Paradise
4x Walking Ballista
3x Kitchen Finks
1x Genesis Hydra
Enchantments (8)
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Oath of Nissa
Planeswalker (17)
3x Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
3x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Elspeth Tirel
2x Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
2x Karn Liberated
2x Windswept Heath
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Wooded Foothills
3x Temple Garden
5x Forest
1x Gavony Township
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
3x Eidolon of Rhetoric
3x Stony Silence
3x Path to Exile
2x Nevermore
2x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
Since I now have 2x Nevemore, plus 3x Stony Silence, plus 3x Path, plus 2x Wheel of Sun and Moon, I have a lot of Ad Nauseuum and Gifts storm hate. Enough that I could remove 1-2 cards for a other sideboard options.
Matches Update:
VS. Eldrazi Tron, I Win 2-1
- He wins game 1 with too much aggression. I win game 2 with a turn 4 garruk ulti. And game 3 I out-Tron Tron with Karn and like 3 other Planeswalkers. He never pulls All is Dust or a timely Smasher.
A concern I have is playing againt Flyers, since they can just fly over our endless blockers to kill Planeswalkers. I haven't had a matchup vs Lingering Souls, but I can definitely foresee this happening. It why Smasher is one of the banes of this deck because it's the only real big Trampler that sees heavy play. This deck can usually win if we can keep our Walkers alive. I'm not sure how to remedy this issue. It makes Avatar of the Resolute more appealing because it has Reach, but the card is so much less resilient than Finks, ESPECIALLY IN THIS DECK. I've been looking at Arashi, the Sky Asunder and Cloudthresher. I'm wondering if Firespout could be good. If so, adding a Stomping Ground may be worthwhile.
I suppose Ballista can be enough to deal with Lingering Souls.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
This list looks great. I like the addition of Xenagos, and I've been eyeing that card recently wondering if it was possible to make a R/G Walker list. Your list has a total of 9 Planeswalkers making it nearly a Walker list. My G/W Walker deck has 16 Walkers for comparison.
I'm curious how Courser and Blood Moons worked out for you? It's interesting that you have 3 Courser and 1 Finks, because I've seen many lists with the exact opposite setup of just 1 Courser and 3 Ewit or Finks. I suppose since you have only 3 Pacts and no other tutor cards, being able to see the top card and know if you should fetch or keep it on top can be great, and get some card advantage over time (if it stays around).
I'm also curious about Dragonlord, because I find it to be the weakest card in your list. Out of all the Devotion decks I've brewed (a lot), I've never played Atarka. I just thought there were better options for that effect (e.g. Hornet Queen, Walking Ballista, Polukranos, World Eater). Though in a pact version it could be ok.
In regards to Prime Time. It's a good finisher because it ramps you, find the Kessig which can be used on your dorkier dudes, so it has an effect even it dies before it gets to attack, but IT DOES NOT hate on the opponents gameplan. When you fetch your fatty boom-boom, it makes sense that you want to be fetching something that can closeout the game and at the same time hate on our opponents gameplan. Prime Time is great in Pact decks because you can still have a lot of mana available the following turn to cast spells, since he effectively reduces the Pact upkeep cost by 2. The only time I would play Titan is if I'm in a Pact deck, and your reasoning to not include alongside Pact may very well be the right choice.
Your 75 is very weak to Storm, especially AD nauseum. I suppose Pact lists CAN have less hatecards for storm because they can win turn 3-4 as well. You have no way to slow them down, so it's basically a fast Ruric Thar, a turn 3-4 kill, or you lose.
And lastly, how did your white splash workout? I was worried that you wouldn't be able to get white man early consistently enough, but with 14 sources plus Oath maybe it's ok.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
What an AWESOME breakdown.
I actually really like your list. I know I've said it in the past; but I do think Burning-Tree Emissary and Summoner's Pact go well together. I believe the combination of the two really creates speed in a devotion list that can't be obtained other ways without the use of Simian Spirit Guide. Beyond that, however, the deck is very balanced.
I have always been a fan of Xenagos, the Reveler. Obviously, it was in my very first Walker Combo list (as Xenagos, Garruk, and a Cloudstone Curio give you infinite 2/2 haste creatures under numerous circumstances) and he has been a part of pretty much every Grull and/or Temur list I've made in the past. Spitting out 2/2 haste Satyrs is great, but his mana ability can also be abused in devotion shells. And he is at that magic 4-CMC number that works well for walkers
To be entirely honest with you, I don't think I would change much with your list. It is balanced, and the weakness in the main for certain match ups seem to be taken care of as well as they can be in the sideboard...all in all; I'd say it is one of the best Pact Devotion lists I've seen.
Spellskite is a perfectly reasonable card. It has applications that are very widespread. I think it used to be THE sideboard staple in the days of Infect, Twin, and even Boggles (when it was more popular) and thus has fallen out of favor from its height as likelly one of the most played cards in the entire format...but you are absolutely right that it probably should see more play than it currently does.
I tried some random sideboard cards (like Leyline and Worship) but not enough to say for certain they are needed)...although Worship was difficult for the opponent to win through so I will continue testing it. Right now, I'm really just testing sideboard cards to be honest. I feel like the main deck is in really good shape given the current meta.
I also tried a few of the other walkers just to see if there was any synergy there. I tried Ajani, Caller of Pride in particular (given its low cost, +1/+1 counter synergy, etc.) and while the double strike payoff could be outstanding....the fact that he doesn't do anything by himself (i.e. if played on turn two could really only give a counter to a dork if present) just didn't seem feasible...
There definitely is a G/R Walker list with walkers like Xenagos, Chandra (both the 4-drop and 6-drop)...I found it to be a little more "controlling" than the Selsnya version...but it is absolutely there. Xengos is certainly powerful though...I've played Naya in the past (as Oath really does make it very easy to cast along with Bird, Utopia Sprawl, etc.)
____
I know I talk about the fact that I play/test two different versions of Devotion at a time...I've been talking about the Selesnya one quite a bit; but for anyone interested in the other, I thought I'd post it below:
4x Arbor Elf
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Coiling Oracle
2x Duskwatch Recruiter
1x Eternal Witness
3x Courser of Kruphix
3x Wistful Selkie
2x Acidic Slime
4x Walking Ballista
4x Utopia Sprawl
3x Oath of Nissa
Planeswalker
4x Nissa, Steward of Elements
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
Land
7x Green Fetch
4x Breeding Pool
5x Forest
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
It kinda just follows the same ideas I tend to build into every Devotion deck:
1. Lots of card advantage/card draw (via ETB, Walkers, etc.)
2. A lot of mana-sinks to "smooth" things out
3. Focusing on a few individual cards (i.e. making the "best" Garruk, Ballista,
4. Trying to get answers in the main that are still synergistic (Ballista, Acidic Slime, etc.)
I've been focusing pretty heavily lately on the Selenya Walker list; but I do enjoy playing this as well. It is not quite a "finely tuned" yet (at least I'm not certain because I've been testing/playing the Selesnya Walkers list more lately)...but this deck really leads to HUGE Ballista's!
I know 4 copies of Nissa SOE is probably at least 1-too-many; but it is really good in the deck...it digs and works as a great win-condition as a "pseudo-fireball" with 10 haste/flying damage to the face...
** I can post my Selesnya Walker list as well; but Rendroc posted his above and it is VERY similar (as we've been tuning the list together since I originally posted it) so I don't want to waste any space. Rendroc has helped focus the list; and I think the list I'm testing is literally only 1 card different in the main...so there really is no point to post it again until any changes are maede. I will be adding them to my signature soon so they can be seen easily (and on TappedOut). **
I will cut the Coursers and finks and see how that works out. I may change your sideboard a bit too, and I'll report back.
Against Tron and Titanshift, I found Terastodon to be great, it's also just game winning against many decks if you blow up 3 lands on turn 3 or 4.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/711714#paper
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/710216#paper
Very clean, traditional genesis wave list - just the way I like it. He's only playing 1 Wave 4 Primal commands though, I assume in order to grind out games. Interesting inclusion of Polukranos (probably as a pseudo removal spell if he untaps with it) and a singleton Oath of Nissa
In Short a little Basics:
Which Decks need Disruption (Discard, Removal, Landhate....) ?
This answer is simple: All Decks need it (and i know there are always some exceptions). So we have only some Options. Even the old Infect that was a incredible fast Deck is using Apostle's Blessing.
a)We fight trough alle the Disruption against our Opponent can throw at us , and do this with Resilence Cards and abilitys like Hexproof, Toughness, CardDraw, Persistence and so on..... We build our defense and do whatever our deck do.
b) Beeing aggresive is all about to disrupt the deckplan from your opponent with removal, discard, counter and so on....
c) The Deckplan is soooo straight, you just doing only your way --> Tooth&Nail has only Ramp into Finisher and nearly nothing else.
Walking Ballista is great, because he doing something from all:
a) with 2 he is a cheap chumpBlocker, with more Mana a Raodblocker
b) to shooting Damage is great and destroy all this perky support creatures from our opponent.
c) The X is in a ramp Deck always interesting and follow our Deckplan
To add the Walking Ballista in your Deck you did never a mistake, but i'm not sure if the Ballista is really the best choice. This need to be effective at minimum 4 Mana and sometimes you need against Combo and very fast aggresive Decks an early answer asap .
P.S.:
eek, why the heck i can't write a short text ?!? ...Nevermind
I agree here...At least in the builds I've played recently in the meta; Walking Ballista has been incredible. It is my prime source of removal, a perfect mana-sink, and often deals the last few bits of damage to win the game. I can't count the times I've attacked with a Ballista and then second main removed counters to deal damage to close out the game.
I do think we have to have other forms of disruption available to us (as Ballista struggles removing bigger creatures early and of course doesn't affect most artifacts/enchantments); but I do think it is the best option we have for "general" creature removal in the main deck of most Green Devotion decks.
This is truly awesome! While we work hard to develop new and competitive builds of devotion...its always nice to be reminded that the tried and true "Traditional" Devotion deck is still a viable deck in many environments. This is just straight up Traditional Devotion and looks great Hopefully he/she is on here every once and a while to know how much we appreciate them doing so well and keeping the Green Devotion archetype alive in the meta. I don't know why they called it "GR" instead of Green Devotion; but I'll see if I can write Seth/Saffron Olive to see if we can get it re-named.
I see what you are saying. You are right about how certain decks maintain certain strategies to deal with disruption:
1. Some (like many tooth and nail decks, some combo, etc.) have a very linear plan and focus on executing it as quickly as possible with as many "interchangeable" cards as possible to ensure they "get there".
2. Some (like the decks I play) focus on having as much "resource advantage" (card draw, card advantage, walkers, etc.) to play through the opponent's removal and simply overwhelm their answers (i.e. have more questions than they can answer).
3. Be so aggressive that the opponent can't cast all of their answers before they lose. This can be things like Stompy where the creatures are so efficient that even if the opponent is able to remove a few of them, they die with cards/disruption in hand.
I think all of the choices have merit. It really comes down to play preference. Green Devotion is built as a mechanic on having permanents on board (as devotion requires green mana symbols); so the strategy is constrained by this need of the mechanic...but all of the above can work. I of course think the seoond option is our best (having ample resource advantage and a little disruption of our own); but obviously the others have historical data to back up that they can and do perform as well. This is a good way to break down each devotion deck into a "Macro-Strategy" however....good discussion.
But it is G/R Devotion, because it has a Red splash. It should really be named G/r Devotion to indicate the splash.
That deck isn't exactly the true traditional Devotion deck, but it's definitely a more basic version. The original Devotion decks I saw had 3 Genesis Wave which is too much because it's super expensive. If you want to go with a basic version, this list looks solid, except I'm not sure about the sideboard card choices and it doesn't seem balanced. He has 6 artifact hate cards! That's a lot.
It actually does have disruption maindeck with 4 Primal Command and 4 Witness, and a tutorable Ghost Quarter in a Tron matchup.
You could even add a Bojuka Bog in the sideboard.
Because it did well I'll have to test it xD.
EDIT: @CurdBros
If you wanted to splash red, you get the option running Ancient Grudge, Crumble to Dust, and Bonfire of the Damned as well as Chandra, Flamecaller.
Chandra could replace Karn, which I don't think is right, she could also just go in the sideboard, or maybe she's just not worth it altogether.
I could only imagine replacing Gideon with Xenagos, and Gideon is great because he presents a lot of aggression. But I'm down to a single Hydra maindeck and 1 sideboard that I could see potentially removing for Xenagos.
Btw, it's too bad Hour of Devastation came out because that card would get us good. Hopefully that doesn't start popping up in Modern.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC