One point I think your post drove home (without intending to) is the nature of divergent paths for the deck. For those decks using high-explosive openings, 4 Nykthos, BTE, and other early sources of Devotion need to be prioritized. For those decks focusing on Command, things like Devotion Druid along with powerful mid-game effects shine. For those focusing on long-game card economy, we need to be willing to cut more of the early plays that have the potential to be lackluster after turn 3, and focus on bigger creatures or variable plays instead.
This is important. I think Green Devotion can be played many different ways and with many different cards...but essentially we have four “Strategies” we can capitalize on:
3. Control/“Big-Green” - think Karn (and/or high density of walkers), Courser, Polukranos, Acidic Slime, etc.
Obviously this is not rocket science (Aggro, Midrange/Combo, and Control are the main ways magic can play played in general).
While we can play “Combo” (there a a dozen combos we can take advantage of)...the combo decks tend to have a combo “built-in” to one of the other three archetypes...although I would say that the majority of Devotion Combo decks fall in the Midrange category.
This could be an important way to differentiate our lists (and to help avoid misunderstandings).
**P.S. obviously some cards go in multiple archetypes...the above examples are just to give a “feel” for each style. **
I know I’m the only person to play Genesis Hydra and/or Reverent Hunter (in the past); but I am keeping my fingers crossed for some great +1/+1 interactive tools in Rivals (as I feel if a card is pushed enough we can make use of it).
This would simply go in the “Variable” slot (where Rosheen Meanderer, Thalia’s Lancers, Wolfbriar Elemental, TKS, etc. go). I generally have two such slots that can be whatever is best for the current meta within the deck’s shell.
Hey Curdbros, in this vein I would consider Hardened Scales. It's a decent devotion enabler and easy to fit in. Nobody has really played around with a +1/+1 counters-matter deck at all, but if you're exploring that, give it a go. You probably have already thought of it, but just thought I'd throw it out!
Also, I completely forgot... Guttural Response could be a great sideboard card vs. both Storm AND Jeskai Tempo.
Or maybe I thought of it but discounted it, and maybe for good reason.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Always wear protection kids, sleeve up your deck.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Will be posting a few results soon as well as questions/tidbits about the structure of the updated Primer!
No super major changes/ideas. I have been playing Kiora, Master of the Depths more lately (as my recent decks have tended to be a little less on the overrun plan; so the digging and untapping have been big)...but even in such decks I still play a few Wildspeakers I’ll let you know how it goes after more testing.
Hey guys, anthony skrzypczak here... I do not like making public posts that much, but I saw your discussion about 3x nythos and I could not stay silent.
Other notable results for me include a top8 in an IQ and a 1st place at a PPTQ (Just played the RPTQ this weekend, ended up 11th after missing 2 win-and-ins. Still working on tuning my play against humans.)
I play 4x burning tree, what you call the 'stompy' build. I would call it aggro/combo, but that is just semantics.
2x nythos is one of the best possible mana hands, as long as you already have green producing lands. You play 1, and then hold the other in your hand. When you want a massive boost of mana you can activate the one in play, and then immediately play the one in your hand and activate it. Playing lands and using mana abilities do not use the stack, and cannot be responded to by your opponent. They cannot path/push/bolt/ghost quarter in response, neither to the 1st nor to the 2nd nykthos activations. You get to go from 0-60mph without warning and make craterhoof mana out of nowhere. (2x nykthos also allows us to beat ghost quarter quite handily, which is nice since our opponent neatly strip-mines themselves to no effect).
Here is an example line to illustrate my point:
(Lets imagine that my opponent has tapped out, or maybe interacted with my devotion count on their turn, giving me a window to act.)
1. I enter my main phase with 3 devotion, a nykthos and 2 forests in play, maybe some random crap creatures (plants from nissa?)
2. Draw for turn is summoner's pact #2 or nykthos #2, leaving me with 4 cards in hand: 2x pact and 2x nykthos. Perfect, time to win the game.
3. Play pact, get burning tree and play it. (2 mana and 5 devotion)
4. Activate nykthos, play nykthos, keep new copy, activate again. 5 mana on 1st activation -> 8 mana on 2nd activation.
5. Play pact #2, get craterhoof, swing lethal.
To deny our mana, the only opportunity our opponent gets is in response to the come-into-play trigger on the burning-tree during step 3. When we only have 5 total devotion, the common reply from the opponent is to let you resolve the trigger.
You can sub summoners pacts for burning-tree or hoof already in hand.
With 2x non-summoning-sick creatures in play, +hoof +tree, you swing for 17 trample damage + the power of your starting 2 creatures.
With 3x creatures, you can swing 12 trample + starting power if they path to exile the hoof in response to the hoof trigger.
Based on how tapped out your opponent is, what interaction that they are representing, you have to think about whether you want to pull the trigger.
Obviously not all games work like this, but at least 1 game per tournament ends like this for me.
Half the time i just play a normal stompy game, the other half I get to play with explosive mana and fast pact+hoof or whatever big creature can win the game.
I am never unhappy to see 2 nykthos, it makes it really easy for me to bluff being mana screwed and then follow up with an explosive play.
Another example of this type of play could be having 4x devotion and 2x nykthos: when i play the 2nd nykthos I get 6 mana and therefore a primetime, ruric thar, or carnage tyrant. One of the main reasons I play this deck over other options out there is the explosiveness. Pact Devotion makes the claim that a quick premium threat is better than endgame inevitability, and my builds are based around this concept.
(Note: to avoid mulligans, i play 16 green lands. For a 7 card hand, this gives a 10% chance of not having any green lands, which kinda sucks but its livable. When I add a colorless land, I go up from 20x lands to 21x)
Hey Anthony!!! So glad to see you post here. Can't wait to dive into all of your info Thanks for being such a great champion of Devotion!! I may PM you if that is ok (as I'd like to begin posting on MTGO too but want to know the best way to go about it).
Thanks for the insights. They largely mirror my experience from playing a design rather similar to yours.
I know you don't post much, but I have one question if you wouldn't mind answering it: why do you opt for Nissa VoZ? I haven't had good luck with her, and I'm curious what you're seeing that I'm not.
Great advice on NOT holding back for the Craterhoof dump. That only happens if your opponent is not playing discard in the first 2 turns nor counters or is tapped out. On reaching your tourney placings, how did you deal with the grindy games. The ones where you had to topdeck for the win. Have you played ever with Kiora, Master of the Depths for the Rihanna Fighting Octopus (my corny pun from the Valerian movie)?
1. she provides 2 devotion
2. she is harder to kill than a creature (goes immediately to 4 loyalty and creates a chump blocker)
3. she slows down the game, as your opponent has to attack her
4. she threatens to win the game on her own, on a different axis than the rest of the deck (her ult lets you draw enough cards to win any grindy matchup practically on the spot)
5. she provides bodies for overrun effects
6. she threatens to reset kitchen finks post-board
In order to kill our turn 2 nissa, our opponent has to either have a counterspell, exactly dreadbore/abrupt decay/mealstrome pulse, or goyf/tasigur + kill our blockers. When we play Burning-Tree Emissary (BTE) + Nissa, it becomes very certain against most decks that nissa will survive for the next turn at least.
Nissa slows down the game. As soon as she hits the board, our opponent has very few turns to ignore her before she threatens to win, so the focus will shift towards her.
The default line of play is to +1 until she hits 7, and then immediately ult her. If we draw 4-5 cards we will almost certainly win the game. The lifegain is also a big threat against decks like burn.
The only time we want to -2 her is if we are certain that our line to victory is through creature combat over multiple turns.
Most of the time she just makes 3-4 plants and then dies, but our opponent has spent resources fighting her and that has given us a window to do our thing.
Nissa's power is in what she threatens, not what she does.
She is rather weak against linear combo decks, but is very good against grindy decks that cannot ignore the threat of her ult.
She also provides a lot of synergy for the garruk ult line in our deck, adding extra creatures to the board and adding an extra anthem effect.
I play nissa simply because I consider her the best option over the other cards with a mana cost of 1GG
Other options for her slot:
* courser of kruphix
* kitchen finks
* wistful selkie
* leatherback baloth
* strangleroot geist
All of these options are fine for providing devotion, but none of them are as powerful in a vacuum as nissa.
Each of the competing cards in the slot are 'just' medium creatures that have a low impact on the board and die to traditional removal, especially push.
Also, we already have BTE x4, if we clog the board with creatures we end up being very vulnerable against board wipes.
I do not like courser, simply because it gives my opponent information about my hand, and since I am playing an unknown deck I prefer to keep my hand hidden.
Courser also does not have a high impact on the board the way nissa does. But out of all of these options, I like it the most and it for sure competes with nissa for the slot.
Its main advantage is the lifegain against burn, but finks wins in this category and so I always play 2 in the board.
Since I am playing 4x burning-tree, I prefer to play a card with 1GG over GGG, since the R mana from BTE can make them hard to cast in the same turn.
Between BTE and nykthos not producing green mana, it can be awkward to always cast a GGG card on turn 2.
Strangleroot Geist's undying ability conflicts with nissa's -2, and so I do not play it. But if we were to cut her then it opens up the opportunity to play it.
One thing I have not spent much time looking into is a deck with multiple geist, baloth and BTE. This could potentially be a stronger aggro deck, but I am not sure that losing nissa is worth it. Also, the current meta is full of death shadow, eldrazi and tall humans, and our creature options cannot compete with that.
In summary:
nissa provides resilient devotion, integrates well into our gameplan, and provides another axis of attack, all in 1 card.
Thank you very much for those insights. I had gathered that 1GG was the ideal cost for ease of casting and providing Devotion, as well as her redundancy with the Overrun plan. I had actually undervalued her resistance to removal (mostly because she dies to fliers) and the ultimate because it had never come up. However, your explanation makes it clear why she is preferred. I like Courser a lot, but I'm going to try going back to Nissa VoZ.
Another thing I hadn't really considered is the synergy with Finks. I'm actually not playing Finks, partially because I don't have them, and partially because I'm playing Ravenous Baloths. I'm not sure if this is enough to change which I use, but I'll certainly give it some more thought.
I have a few more questions, but I'll refrain from asking and try to figure them out myself. I appreciate you taking the time to clarify the use of Nissa VoZ, and I certainly learned a lot from your answer.
I’ve been refraining from posting until I had some more concrete results; but I did want to point out a few things I’m finding over my current play with a more “Big Green” take on Devotion.
To be entirely honest; the best options for an Aggo version are the options Anthony uses (Pact, BTE, Garruk, Nissa VOZ, etc.). Anyone wanting to focus on Garruk and CrTerhoof as your main win-cons should just start there. I know it is very similar to what many people have arrived at recently...but that is good news (as that means multiple educated/experienced parties reached the same conclusions after playing.).
Anthony I totally understand calling it “Aggro/Conttol”. Your list literally perfectly covers/crystallizes the idea that even Aggro decks must have some forms of interaction main...but it must be done in a way that doesn’t completely derail the deck. Your “Pact Bullets” fit this perfectly; and I love the 1-of Command. I don’t mean “Aggro” in a negative way by any means....it is likely the best thing we can do with Devition because it:
1. Turns the “requirement” of Devotion (needing green permanents on board) a positive aspect of the deck.
2. Makes the most of our best card (Garruk Wildspeaker).
3. Allows for the tutor to work well in both explosive and interactive situations.
I dont think you can do much better on the “Aggro” end (again just meant to define the main line of play/winning in comparison to other Devotion lists...the deck is still extremely complex...it’s just meant to categorize lists).
The only other card I played in my “Pact” list (I played a list extremely similar to this a while ago and will see if I can go back and re-post my results/findings) was Dragonlord Atarka....but obviously decks are going to vary by a few cards...the point/core of the deck remained the same.
________
In terms of my “Interaction List”; I’ve been playing Kiora, Master of the Depths and a few new cards. The main things I’ve found in an attempt to play a more “overwhelming/interactive” deck are:
3. I’ve like Field of Ruin as my “utility” land in my Simic build. It is land destruction that doesn’t put us down a land.
With the above; you really can interact with every permanent on the board with creatures...I’ve moved to more copies of each and removed the Karns (as Kiora and Oath can dig for Slimes and Ballistas).
I will post the remainder of the list, my findings in comparison to the white list, and my overall takes on this “style” of Devotion deck once I’ve got at least 50 matches in with the Blue version.
I’m down to “Garruk Green” and a yet-unnamed “interactive” list...as much as I love brewing; until they print new cards I don’t see myself competitively playing anything but these two lists (one where Aggro is better; and one when Interaction is a little better).
I will always try out new cards and new ideas from anyone and everyone in the Primer (so there will always be someone to discuss your Devotion deck/idea with no matter what it is :). Competitively; I just haven’t found anything better (and I’ve played a lot of Devotion lists/ideas).
Yes, her weakness to fliers is an issue. Humans for example can cleanly kill her with a mantis rider and a noble hierarch on their turn 2. This is a more recent development in the metagame and I am not sure that humans is prevalent enough to warp our maindeck.
I currently board all 3 out against affinity, merfolk, and humans. Against these matchups I do not think courser/finks are enough of an upgrade to warrant taking her out of the deck.
I often shave a few copies against lingering souls. But souls can be a little slow, and is not a large part of the current metagame.
One last thing...Garruk, Caller of Beasts is very good (even if used as a 1-of in the board) in Pact lists as it:
(a) draws a ridiculous amount of cards if you play 20+ creatures.
(b) can put a Craterhoof in play for only 6-mana (play it and immediately -2 it for Hoof in hand or Pact-ed for).
In Grindy games it essentially takes over immediately. It is great against control as well (however I tend to get them off of Genesis Hydra...so it probably isn’t a great card to keep in vs. control without a way to get it into play.
Rendroc can also add to this discussion...as we both play essentially the same style deck with two Garruk COB...I even moved to Pact a few weeks ago (which was essentially the only difference between our two lists).
It does change the list a hair in other ways; but I have found it to be quite powerful as both a “hand refill tool” when needed and a way to get a fatty in quickly in other situations. I’ve had many situations where I will cast a Garruk COB and -3 him to put in an Acidic Slime, Polukranos, etc. as it adds 4-Devotion to the board (and often there is another reason within the specific game)...the point is that often times the Garruk itself is somewhat reduced by the fact that it can immediately “cast” a Creature of 4+ CMC.
It may be more meta-specific; but it is a great option to be considered nonetheless. As stated before, however, the core lines/function of the deck remain the same. Having seen your results, however; I absolutely am going to test BTE in my Garruk Green list.
Yes, her weakness to fliers is an issue. Humans for example can cleanly kill her with a mantis rider and a noble hierarch on their turn 2. This is a more recent development in the metagame and I am not sure that humans is prevalent enough to warp our maindeck.
I currently board all 3 out against affinity, merfolk, and humans. Against these matchups I do not think courser/finks are enough of an upgrade to warrant taking her out of the deck.
I often shave a few copies against lingering souls. But souls can be a little slow, and is not a large part of the current metagame.
It’s tough; because having chump bodies can be really strong against some Humans draws (buys enough time for us to go over/through them)...but they do have fliers (and an early Thalia can hurt)...like you said, however; if it was truly found to be an issue they could just be sided out.
To be honest, I’m not certain how big of a chunk of Modern that Humans will take up. It’s a cool (and obviously powerful) deck; but I’ve found it’s weaknesss we’re pretty quickly found so I think it will end up being a lot like other Tier 2 decks in terms of prevalence.
@askrzypczak
One of the best write up's that i have read here in the last time. Thank You!
About Fliers and Aggro Decks: How about Firespout ? Maybe better as your Kozilek's Return in your Sideboard.
@CurdBros
Can't wait to see your Simic Decklist and your summit about the >50 Games.
I think we came slowly to a point, that we found the (very) best cards in the Standardbuilds. With every style we could play , the "best" cards maybe drastically change, but that's okay. With every new card and suggestions i think in the meanwhile in which "package" could fit it at best.
Great primer of Nissa planeswalker for the Devotion staples cardlist,it gives the strongest points for choosing her as the planeswalker alongside a playset of Kiora, Master of Depths, which I'm playing for the grindy Octopus emblem. One Nissa plant fights anything on the board and puts three Octopus fighters in play ad nauseum.
I also don't like Courser of Kruphix since the printing of Fatal Push makes a Courser an easy target for a one CMC spot removal spell. Nissa goes around that while adding blockers into play. I prefer Leyline of Vitality since it adds 1 life for each ETB creature, potentially offers infinite life for the Turntimber Ranger and Arcane Adaptation combo. And it is a turn one GG devotion already by itself, and makes your fatties, just that much bigger. I'm considering a Summoning Trap build like the old standard meta, even if the thing does whiff but it buries all the chaff at the bottom of the library. Counterspells are a pain too so if we bait a counterspell with some other creature and get a Ruric into play, then it should be a worthy early explosive play. In my other Modern deck, Bant Consciption, I've had a weak TRON player counter my Lotus Cobra, played Summoning Trap into Sovereigns of Lost Alara and got the Conscription next turn for GG. At least 3 maindeck and enough decent Fattys should help too.
Since @CurdBros is developing a UG variant, I'd suggest Kira, Great Glass-spinner as extra protection for any board threats and a flying beater. It's a staple of any UG build and Bant Aggro too.
I wonder if a Pact player can make a one-of Sovereigns of Lost Alara and a one-of Eldrazi Conscription make the cut.
Great primer of Nissa planeswalker for the Devotion staples cardlist,it gives the strongest points for choosing her as the planeswalker alongside a playset of Kiora, Master of Depths, which I'm playing for the grindy Octopus emblem. One Nissa plant fights anything on the board and puts three Octopus fighters in play ad nauseum.
Kiora is great, but what??!? My Games are never so long that i can use that emblem seriously. You must be very luckily if you got that much time to play the final. I did it only once and this was at that situation only a win more
I also don't like Courser of Kruphix since the printing of Fatal Push makes a Courser an easy target for a one CMC spot removal spell.
With 3CMC its not soooo easy. He must still loosing something to use Revolt. After that, Fatal Push kill any of our "support" creatures.
Since @CurdBros is developing a UG variant, I'd suggest Kira, Great Glass-spinner as extra protection for any board threats and a flying beater. It's a staple of any UG build and Bant Aggro too.
UU isn't easy to cast. That is imho not a staple in a UG Build. in a heavy removal game i would play Shapers' Sanctuary or Asceticism and only as a Sideboardcard.
It has the same problem like all auras. you can trade 1:2 if your opponent use a removal. Second Problem you need still a evasion effect. I would consider this in a enchantment heavy build , not in a pact build. In the last time green become some very strong Enchantments like Sandwurm Convergence. Something like with Eidolon of Blossoms and Courser of Kruphix (he is a Enchantment , too), you could brew a strong Green Enchantment Devotion List, because Echantment are permanents, that fits very well in a devotion list with Nykthos.
I’ve been refraining from posting until I had some more concrete results; but I did want to point out a few things I’m finding over my current play with a more “Big Green” take on Devotion.
To be entirely honest; the best options for an Aggo version are the options Anthony uses (Pact, BTE, Garruk, Nissa VOZ, etc.). Anyone wanting to focus on Garruk and CrTerhoof as your main win-cons should just start there. I know it is very similar to what many people have arrived at recently...but that is good news (as that means multiple educated/experienced parties reached the same conclusions after playing.).
Anthony I totally understand calling it “Aggro/Conttol”. Your list literally perfectly covers/crystallizes the idea that even Aggro decks must have some forms of interaction main...but it must be done in a way that doesn’t completely derail the deck. Your “Pact Bullets” fit this perfectly; and I love the 1-of Command. I don’t mean “Aggro” in a negative way by any means....it is likely the best thing we can do with Devition because it:
1. Turns the “requirement” of Devotion (needing green permanents on board) a positive aspect of the deck.
2. Makes the most of our best card (Garruk Wildspeaker).
3. Allows for the tutor to work well in both explosive and interactive situations.
I dont think you can do much better on the “Aggro” end (again just meant to define the main line of play/winning in comparison to other Devotion lists...the deck is still extremely complex...it’s just meant to categorize lists).
The only other card I played in my “Pact” list (I played a list extremely similar to this a while ago and will see if I can go back and re-post my results/findings) was Dragonlord Atarka....but obviously decks are going to vary by a few cards...the point/core of the deck remained the same.
________
In terms of my “Interaction List”; I’ve been playing Kiora, Master of the Depths and a few new cards. The main things I’ve found in an attempt to play a more “overwhelming/interactive” deck are:
3. I’ve like Field of Ruin as my “utility” land in my Simic build. It is land destruction that doesn’t put us down a land.
With the above; you really can interact with every permanent on the board with creatures...I’ve moved to more copies of each and removed the Karns (as Kiora and Oath can dig for Slimes and Ballistas).
I will post the remainder of the list, my findings in comparison to the white list, and my overall takes on this “style” of Devotion deck once I’ve got at least 50 matches in with the Blue version.
I’m down to “Garruk Green” and a yet-unnamed “interactive” list...as much as I love brewing; until they print new cards I don’t see myself competitively playing anything but these two lists (one where Aggro is better; and one when Interaction is a little better).
I will always try out new cards and new ideas from anyone and everyone in the Primer (so there will always be someone to discuss your Devotion deck/idea with no matter what it is :). Competitively; I just haven’t found anything better (and I’ve played a lot of Devotion lists/ideas).
Yeah, I agree that the list A.S. has provided is probably a fantastic starting place for the aggro-combo build. My only deviations were swapping Courser for Nissa VoZ (I'm back there now), one less Pact and one more Garruk R/VC, and replacing Slime, Witness, and an Oath with Atarka and 2x Polukranos. Plus a very different SB. Running 4 Oaths and Pacts created too many tricky situations for my taste.
Slime is a card that has not impressed me. The times that I'm getting closed out by something I can't work around, usually one such destroy effect isn't enough. Maybe I'm not using it properly. I have a Terastodon in the SB.
Yes, her weakness to fliers is an issue. Humans for example can cleanly kill her with a mantis rider and a noble hierarch on their turn 2. This is a more recent development in the metagame and I am not sure that humans is prevalent enough to warp our maindeck.
I currently board all 3 out against affinity, merfolk, and humans. Against these matchups I do not think courser/finks are enough of an upgrade to warrant taking her out of the deck.
I often shave a few copies against lingering souls. But souls can be a little slow, and is not a large part of the current metagame.
Agreed on all points. No deck, much less Humans, warrants a serious MD shift (since no deck is more than 5% of the meta). One of the small issues is having 9+ vulnerable PWs is a lot to SB out. But the Garruks can make at least some immediate impact, so they're a bit better I suppose.
One last thing...Garruk, Caller of Beasts is very good (even if used as a 1-of in the board) in Pact lists as it:
(a) draws a ridiculous amount of cards if you play 20+ creatures.
(b) can put a Craterhoof in play for only 6-mana (play it and immediately -2 it for Hoof in hand or Pact-ed for).
In Grindy games it essentially takes over immediately. It is great against control as well (however I tend to get them off of Genesis Hydra...so it probably isn’t a great card to keep in vs. control without a way to get it into play.
Rendroc can also add to this discussion...as we both play essentially the same style deck with two Garruk COB...I even moved to Pact a few weeks ago (which was essentially the only difference between our two lists).
It does change the list a hair in other ways; but I have found it to be quite powerful as both a “hand refill tool” when needed and a way to get a fatty in quickly in other situations. I’ve had many situations where I will cast a Garruk COB and -3 him to put in an Acidic Slime, Polukranos, etc. as it adds 4-Devotion to the board (and often there is another reason within the specific game)...the point is that often times the Garruk itself is somewhat reduced by the fact that it can immediately “cast” a Creature of 4+ CMC.
It may be more meta-specific; but it is a great option to be considered nonetheless. As stated before, however, the core lines/function of the deck remain the same. Having seen your results, however; I absolutely am going to test BTE in my Garruk Green list.
I was going to say that I think Garruk CoB decks and BTE decks are a different animal, but I'm actually not so sure. Pact is the key here: it synergizes with both BTE and Garruk CoB. BTEs will primarily be in there to speed up the turn where Garruk CoB lands. I'd be interested to see what the result looks like.
The problem with Garruk CoB is that it's costly and conditional on creature-densities. If it's not reliably finding or playing something that's a Titan or better, you might as well just play the Titan.
@askrzypczak
Thanks for speaking up against what probably seemed to you as a rather ignorant comment from me about playing 3 Nykthos! The question arose from the fact that I've been trying to build a consistent devotion deck - with resilient devotion such as Rhonas, Oath of Nissa and planeswalkers - rather than an explosive devotion build that you have had success with. I think this comes from my personality in that I'm always thinking long term - top decking Burning-Trees turn 7 with an empty hand sounds fun! ... - but you've shown that devotion can work at a high level, and honestly I've never tried the Burning-Tree build before!
Here are my two current builds: one is the "consistent" devotion list (same as the one posted a few days ago), the other is the explosive (Burning-Tree) devotion list.
Kiora is a good card, if i was playing blue I would play her. Her -2 works well with Eternal Witness to find non-creature spells with it. My favorite tooth and nail build plays it. (master of the depths, i have not tested the crashing wave. 4x oath of nissa makes her extremely easy to cast.
Walking ballista is really really strong in creature matchups, the only reason I do not play it is because summoner's pact can only find green creatures. If i was playing 4x primal command I would play 4x ballista.
I love polukranos, I have recently moved to playing 1 main. It wins a surprising number of games by itself (easily a 7/7 that kills a blocker or two, maybe an important creature if we are very lucky) and is a good 'backup' pact target as it has the same casting cost as the pact trigger. It is really really weak to path/terminate and to a lesser extent dismember, but that is about it.
My current option for creature removal is Garruk Relentless. It seems more versatile, even if it does cost 4. There are plenty of cases where I am fine paying 4 for a main deck green lightning bolt, and the ceiling of the card's power level is that it finds any creature you want the turn after you play it. Against linear noncreature decks i kill my own creature to transform him, which is a lot better than ballista. The floor of course is that it dies to bolt immediately and the 3 damage is prevented, so I board it out against jeskai, but I would board out ballista/polukranos in that matchup anyway.
I have been playing with 4x ballista and 4x primal command, and I like it. The only problem so far is that it can be 1 turn too slow, especially against decks that do not lean heavily on creatures. There is probably a proper build out there to fix those issues. I like the idea of targeting ripjaw raptor with ballista, card draw is really strong in green devotion. In testing I found it to be a little expensive on the mana side, but it seems strong against grindy matchups. I played a list like that in the Cincinnati Open, and missed day 2, 3-3 drop (nowhere close). I then sleeved up my pact list for the Classic and got top 8. My takeaway was to play what I know and focus on pact.
I think that you might want to play 4x nykthos even in the slower builds, as the mana explosion is very strong and will probably result in playing an extra impactful card on that turn. If you are disliking the legendary downsides or the colorless mana, you might want to consider increasing your total land count instead. But that depends on the mana base, it is possible that without BTE 4x nykthos is not as strong.
Regarding BTE topdeck late game... yes it can suck. I board some number out against grindy matchups as a result (and is one of the reasons I play 2x finks in the board over 4 mana baloth). But there are plenty of times where I topdeck it late and it is the key to explosively playing out my hand after multiple turns of removal and discard filling my hand with expensive cards and stripping out my ramp. It is only really weak when you are hellbent.
I really like firespout, and used to play it. I want to go back to it again, but currently I am testing engineered explosives, and initial testing is really promising.
I find my list is very weak to tribal evasion/combo decks, such as merfolk, affinity, elves, and counters company. We beat creatures using combat, hornet queen destroys fair creature combat. But against creatures with abilities or evasion we can struggle to interact. Humans is a new contender in this area, and I want my board plan for that deck to be the same as for these other creature tribal lists. My answer here is to play wraths in the board, conceding that their creatures as a whole are stronger than our mana dorks. Another answer is perhaps 4x walking ballista, but my list does not play this and it does not handle multiple x/2 creatures efficiently.
When it comes to wraths, I am only comfortable playing cards that cost 1x red
Wrath options that I tested:
* pyroclasm
* bonfire of the damned
* firepout
* kozilek's return
* engineered explosives
- pyroclasm is great, but it does not hit anthem'ed creatures fast enough (2x merfolk lords, esp with a vial in play, can race it). Humans also have larger toughness creatures now, including mantis rider. (other notable x/3 creatures include eldrazi displacer, ramuncap excavator, baral chief of compliance)
- bonfire is too expensive for my build, it cannot 100% consistently get 5 mana on turn 3 for x=2, also x=2 turn 3 on the draw is too slow in many cases. pyroclasm will always do 2 damage on turn 2, and it is easy to hold back turn 1 mana dorks until after we 'clasm, and then it is essentially 1-sided wrath anyway.
- kozilek's return is an instant, and I cannot praise it enough for this reason. This offers a lot of surprise plays, as it is easy to bait out over-extension from our opponent as they will interpret holding up 3 mana as us not having the wrath. When the whole game 1 was played at sorcery speed, it is a great gotcha card. devoid is a nice bonus, letting us shave affinity cards in the board since it kills pro-red etched champion, and it hits activated man lands by playing it on their turn after they activate them. Also goes though burrenton forge tender for bonus points, and instant speed interacts favorably against collected company.
- firespout is the best standalone option right now, but it fails to kill mirran crusader (it is green), and is weaker against affinity. Also for a while the meta was such that 2 damage was enough, but right now I think 3 damage is better. I play 2 kozilek's return to recover 1 slot against affinity in my board. With death shadow on the (temporary?) decline, mirran crusader should fade away and firespout will get stronger. Used to be a lot of the top decks played multiple crusaders in the 75. The big downside vs the others is that it kills our 3/3 beasts.
BUT I really prefer engineered explosives. Its a lot harder to use but I like the potential. x=0|2 is very strong against decks which we board in wraths, and using birds and utopia sprawl (and finks + nykthos on white in an emergency), we can produce a 3rd color in rare cases. X=2 does not disrupt my build, as I only play 5 2-drop creatures (1 scooze and 4 BTW, and the nature of BTE is such that I can delay playing them for a turn since they refund their mana on ETB). Notable x=2 targets include meddling mage/thalia/merfolk lords/spreading seas/storm's creatures/leonin arbiter/tidehallow sculler/visier of remedies/melira, ect. Pretty much all the creatures which matter in the problem matchups. Unlike most of our other wrath options it hits the important humans targets even though anthems. I like that it hits both merkolk lords and spreading seas. I also like that it hits baral and electromancer while also sweeping empty the warrens tokens, which only firespout can do. It seems strong against affinity. I have no enchantment hate in my board since it does not cover enough 'real' decks, but this gives us free sideboard coverage against decks like boggles and another answer to ensnaring bridge. I do not have any results to back this up except for some testing online.
I am still bent on playing red for main deck ruric thar and sideboard spot removal, but it might be possible to splash a different color if we play engineered explosives as the sweeper. (path, gaddoc teeg, dragonlord dromoka? kiora, negate, dismember?)
Acidic slime is in the main for Gx tron and ensnaring bridge. Tron is very hard to beat without it in my pact list. It also hits phyrexian unlife and is one of our best cards against ad-nauseum as a result. It is also fine in grindy matchups, as it kills a man-land and can trade with any creature thanks to deathtouch. It also makes a weak 'timewarp' impression, sometimes killing a land can steal you a turn against combo. It kills eidolon cleanly against burn. It provides 2x devotion. It plays nicely alongside my 3x blood moon sideboard, killing a basic land or aether vial. It hits detention sphere against B/W control. It hits spreading seas against merfolk. It can sometimes sneakily hit an oblivion stone, engineered explosives or ratchet bomb. It is really good in the mirror and against ponza. It is a weak but acceptable interaction against affinity and boggles. It can hit blood moon, worship and bitterblossom. Additionally, it provides a hedge against random brews, which tend to play 'build-around-me' noncreature permanents and saves a board slot which would dedicated to this effect.
I'll board it out freely, but in many matchups I am able to find an acceptable use for it. For the longest time I hated playing it, but as I got more aware of my options when holding a summoner's pact, I kept finding lines where I wished I had access to that option.
It is a key card against a top deck in the metagame, and is medium against the field, almost never fully dead. For me that makes the cut for the main deck given that I have 4x 0-mana creature tutors in summoner's pact.
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This is important. I think Green Devotion can be played many different ways and with many different cards...but essentially we have four “Strategies” we can capitalize on:
1. Aggro/Stompy - think Burning-Tree Emissary, Pact, and Craterhoof.
2. Midrange - think Primal Command, Devoted Druid, Courser, and Prime-time.
3. Control/“Big-Green” - think Karn (and/or high density of walkers), Courser, Polukranos, Acidic Slime, etc.
Obviously this is not rocket science (Aggro, Midrange/Combo, and Control are the main ways magic can play played in general).
While we can play “Combo” (there a a dozen combos we can take advantage of)...the combo decks tend to have a combo “built-in” to one of the other three archetypes...although I would say that the majority of Devotion Combo decks fall in the Midrange category.
This could be an important way to differentiate our lists (and to help avoid misunderstandings).
**P.S. obviously some cards go in multiple archetypes...the above examples are just to give a “feel” for each style. **
Or maybe I thought of it but discounted it, and maybe for good reason.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
No super major changes/ideas. I have been playing Kiora, Master of the Depths more lately (as my recent decks have tended to be a little less on the overrun plan; so the digging and untapping have been big)...but even in such decks I still play a few Wildspeakers I’ll let you know how it goes after more testing.
Some of my lists (Including a top8 in a scg classic that I am happy with):
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/592479#paper
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/802639#paper
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/723521#paper
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/689832#paper
Other notable results for me include a top8 in an IQ and a 1st place at a PPTQ (Just played the RPTQ this weekend, ended up 11th after missing 2 win-and-ins. Still working on tuning my play against humans.)
I play 4x burning tree, what you call the 'stompy' build. I would call it aggro/combo, but that is just semantics.
2x nythos is one of the best possible mana hands, as long as you already have green producing lands. You play 1, and then hold the other in your hand. When you want a massive boost of mana you can activate the one in play, and then immediately play the one in your hand and activate it. Playing lands and using mana abilities do not use the stack, and cannot be responded to by your opponent. They cannot path/push/bolt/ghost quarter in response, neither to the 1st nor to the 2nd nykthos activations. You get to go from 0-60mph without warning and make craterhoof mana out of nowhere. (2x nykthos also allows us to beat ghost quarter quite handily, which is nice since our opponent neatly strip-mines themselves to no effect).
Here is an example line to illustrate my point:
(Lets imagine that my opponent has tapped out, or maybe interacted with my devotion count on their turn, giving me a window to act.)
1. I enter my main phase with 3 devotion, a nykthos and 2 forests in play, maybe some random crap creatures (plants from nissa?)
2. Draw for turn is summoner's pact #2 or nykthos #2, leaving me with 4 cards in hand: 2x pact and 2x nykthos. Perfect, time to win the game.
3. Play pact, get burning tree and play it. (2 mana and 5 devotion)
4. Activate nykthos, play nykthos, keep new copy, activate again. 5 mana on 1st activation -> 8 mana on 2nd activation.
5. Play pact #2, get craterhoof, swing lethal.
To deny our mana, the only opportunity our opponent gets is in response to the come-into-play trigger on the burning-tree during step 3. When we only have 5 total devotion, the common reply from the opponent is to let you resolve the trigger.
You can sub summoners pacts for burning-tree or hoof already in hand.
With 2x non-summoning-sick creatures in play, +hoof +tree, you swing for 17 trample damage + the power of your starting 2 creatures.
With 3x creatures, you can swing 12 trample + starting power if they path to exile the hoof in response to the hoof trigger.
Based on how tapped out your opponent is, what interaction that they are representing, you have to think about whether you want to pull the trigger.
Obviously not all games work like this, but at least 1 game per tournament ends like this for me.
Half the time i just play a normal stompy game, the other half I get to play with explosive mana and fast pact+hoof or whatever big creature can win the game.
I am never unhappy to see 2 nykthos, it makes it really easy for me to bluff being mana screwed and then follow up with an explosive play.
Another example of this type of play could be having 4x devotion and 2x nykthos: when i play the 2nd nykthos I get 6 mana and therefore a primetime, ruric thar, or carnage tyrant. One of the main reasons I play this deck over other options out there is the explosiveness. Pact Devotion makes the claim that a quick premium threat is better than endgame inevitability, and my builds are based around this concept.
(Note: to avoid mulligans, i play 16 green lands. For a 7 card hand, this gives a 10% chance of not having any green lands, which kinda sucks but its livable. When I add a colorless land, I go up from 20x lands to 21x)
Thanks for the insights. They largely mirror my experience from playing a design rather similar to yours.
I know you don't post much, but I have one question if you wouldn't mind answering it: why do you opt for Nissa VoZ? I haven't had good luck with her, and I'm curious what you're seeing that I'm not.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Great advice on NOT holding back for the Craterhoof dump. That only happens if your opponent is not playing discard in the first 2 turns nor counters or is tapped out. On reaching your tourney placings, how did you deal with the grindy games. The ones where you had to topdeck for the win. Have you played ever with Kiora, Master of the Depths for the Rihanna Fighting Octopus (my corny pun from the Valerian movie)?
1. she provides 2 devotion
2. she is harder to kill than a creature (goes immediately to 4 loyalty and creates a chump blocker)
3. she slows down the game, as your opponent has to attack her
4. she threatens to win the game on her own, on a different axis than the rest of the deck (her ult lets you draw enough cards to win any grindy matchup practically on the spot)
5. she provides bodies for overrun effects
6. she threatens to reset kitchen finks post-board
In order to kill our turn 2 nissa, our opponent has to either have a counterspell, exactly dreadbore/abrupt decay/mealstrome pulse, or goyf/tasigur + kill our blockers. When we play Burning-Tree Emissary (BTE) + Nissa, it becomes very certain against most decks that nissa will survive for the next turn at least.
Nissa slows down the game. As soon as she hits the board, our opponent has very few turns to ignore her before she threatens to win, so the focus will shift towards her.
The default line of play is to +1 until she hits 7, and then immediately ult her. If we draw 4-5 cards we will almost certainly win the game. The lifegain is also a big threat against decks like burn.
The only time we want to -2 her is if we are certain that our line to victory is through creature combat over multiple turns.
Most of the time she just makes 3-4 plants and then dies, but our opponent has spent resources fighting her and that has given us a window to do our thing.
Nissa's power is in what she threatens, not what she does.
She is rather weak against linear combo decks, but is very good against grindy decks that cannot ignore the threat of her ult.
She also provides a lot of synergy for the garruk ult line in our deck, adding extra creatures to the board and adding an extra anthem effect.
I play nissa simply because I consider her the best option over the other cards with a mana cost of 1GG
Other options for her slot:
* courser of kruphix
* kitchen finks
* wistful selkie
* leatherback baloth
* strangleroot geist
All of these options are fine for providing devotion, but none of them are as powerful in a vacuum as nissa.
Each of the competing cards in the slot are 'just' medium creatures that have a low impact on the board and die to traditional removal, especially push.
Also, we already have BTE x4, if we clog the board with creatures we end up being very vulnerable against board wipes.
I do not like courser, simply because it gives my opponent information about my hand, and since I am playing an unknown deck I prefer to keep my hand hidden.
Courser also does not have a high impact on the board the way nissa does. But out of all of these options, I like it the most and it for sure competes with nissa for the slot.
Its main advantage is the lifegain against burn, but finks wins in this category and so I always play 2 in the board.
Since I am playing 4x burning-tree, I prefer to play a card with 1GG over GGG, since the R mana from BTE can make them hard to cast in the same turn.
Between BTE and nykthos not producing green mana, it can be awkward to always cast a GGG card on turn 2.
Strangleroot Geist's undying ability conflicts with nissa's -2, and so I do not play it. But if we were to cut her then it opens up the opportunity to play it.
One thing I have not spent much time looking into is a deck with multiple geist, baloth and BTE. This could potentially be a stronger aggro deck, but I am not sure that losing nissa is worth it. Also, the current meta is full of death shadow, eldrazi and tall humans, and our creature options cannot compete with that.
In summary:
nissa provides resilient devotion, integrates well into our gameplan, and provides another axis of attack, all in 1 card.
Thank you very much for those insights. I had gathered that 1GG was the ideal cost for ease of casting and providing Devotion, as well as her redundancy with the Overrun plan. I had actually undervalued her resistance to removal (mostly because she dies to fliers) and the ultimate because it had never come up. However, your explanation makes it clear why she is preferred. I like Courser a lot, but I'm going to try going back to Nissa VoZ.
Another thing I hadn't really considered is the synergy with Finks. I'm actually not playing Finks, partially because I don't have them, and partially because I'm playing Ravenous Baloths. I'm not sure if this is enough to change which I use, but I'll certainly give it some more thought.
I have a few more questions, but I'll refrain from asking and try to figure them out myself. I appreciate you taking the time to clarify the use of Nissa VoZ, and I certainly learned a lot from your answer.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
To be entirely honest; the best options for an Aggo version are the options Anthony uses (Pact, BTE, Garruk, Nissa VOZ, etc.). Anyone wanting to focus on Garruk and CrTerhoof as your main win-cons should just start there. I know it is very similar to what many people have arrived at recently...but that is good news (as that means multiple educated/experienced parties reached the same conclusions after playing.).
Anthony I totally understand calling it “Aggro/Conttol”. Your list literally perfectly covers/crystallizes the idea that even Aggro decks must have some forms of interaction main...but it must be done in a way that doesn’t completely derail the deck. Your “Pact Bullets” fit this perfectly; and I love the 1-of Command. I don’t mean “Aggro” in a negative way by any means....it is likely the best thing we can do with Devition because it:
1. Turns the “requirement” of Devotion (needing green permanents on board) a positive aspect of the deck.
2. Makes the most of our best card (Garruk Wildspeaker).
3. Allows for the tutor to work well in both explosive and interactive situations.
I dont think you can do much better on the “Aggro” end (again just meant to define the main line of play/winning in comparison to other Devotion lists...the deck is still extremely complex...it’s just meant to categorize lists).
The only other card I played in my “Pact” list (I played a list extremely similar to this a while ago and will see if I can go back and re-post my results/findings) was Dragonlord Atarka....but obviously decks are going to vary by a few cards...the point/core of the deck remained the same.
________
In terms of my “Interaction List”; I’ve been playing Kiora, Master of the Depths and a few new cards. The main things I’ve found in an attempt to play a more “overwhelming/interactive” deck are:
1. Acidic Slime is amazing!
2. Walking Ballista and Polukranos, World Eater are amazing!
3. I’ve like Field of Ruin as my “utility” land in my Simic build. It is land destruction that doesn’t put us down a land.
With the above; you really can interact with every permanent on the board with creatures...I’ve moved to more copies of each and removed the Karns (as Kiora and Oath can dig for Slimes and Ballistas).
I will post the remainder of the list, my findings in comparison to the white list, and my overall takes on this “style” of Devotion deck once I’ve got at least 50 matches in with the Blue version.
I’m down to “Garruk Green” and a yet-unnamed “interactive” list...as much as I love brewing; until they print new cards I don’t see myself competitively playing anything but these two lists (one where Aggro is better; and one when Interaction is a little better).
I will always try out new cards and new ideas from anyone and everyone in the Primer (so there will always be someone to discuss your Devotion deck/idea with no matter what it is :). Competitively; I just haven’t found anything better (and I’ve played a lot of Devotion lists/ideas).
I currently board all 3 out against affinity, merfolk, and humans. Against these matchups I do not think courser/finks are enough of an upgrade to warrant taking her out of the deck.
I often shave a few copies against lingering souls. But souls can be a little slow, and is not a large part of the current metagame.
(a) draws a ridiculous amount of cards if you play 20+ creatures.
(b) can put a Craterhoof in play for only 6-mana (play it and immediately -2 it for Hoof in hand or Pact-ed for).
In Grindy games it essentially takes over immediately. It is great against control as well (however I tend to get them off of Genesis Hydra...so it probably isn’t a great card to keep in vs. control without a way to get it into play.
Rendroc can also add to this discussion...as we both play essentially the same style deck with two Garruk COB...I even moved to Pact a few weeks ago (which was essentially the only difference between our two lists).
It does change the list a hair in other ways; but I have found it to be quite powerful as both a “hand refill tool” when needed and a way to get a fatty in quickly in other situations. I’ve had many situations where I will cast a Garruk COB and -3 him to put in an Acidic Slime, Polukranos, etc. as it adds 4-Devotion to the board (and often there is another reason within the specific game)...the point is that often times the Garruk itself is somewhat reduced by the fact that it can immediately “cast” a Creature of 4+ CMC.
It may be more meta-specific; but it is a great option to be considered nonetheless. As stated before, however, the core lines/function of the deck remain the same. Having seen your results, however; I absolutely am going to test BTE in my Garruk Green list.
________
It’s tough; because having chump bodies can be really strong against some Humans draws (buys enough time for us to go over/through them)...but they do have fliers (and an early Thalia can hurt)...like you said, however; if it was truly found to be an issue they could just be sided out.
To be honest, I’m not certain how big of a chunk of Modern that Humans will take up. It’s a cool (and obviously powerful) deck; but I’ve found it’s weaknesss we’re pretty quickly found so I think it will end up being a lot like other Tier 2 decks in terms of prevalence.
One of the best write up's that i have read here in the last time. Thank You!
About Fliers and Aggro Decks: How about Firespout ? Maybe better as your Kozilek's Return in your Sideboard.
@CurdBros
Can't wait to see your Simic Decklist and your summit about the >50 Games.
I think we came slowly to a point, that we found the (very) best cards in the Standardbuilds. With every style we could play , the "best" cards maybe drastically change, but that's okay. With every new card and suggestions i think in the meanwhile in which "package" could fit it at best.
@Brewers (, with too much time )
My idea for today
A Simic Devotion Deck with a big +1/+1 counter subtheme / activated abilitys
With Experiment Kraj , Heroes' Bane, Sage of Hours. Of course with the very strong Nissa, Voice of Zendikar, maybe some other strong Hydras....
And other all Stars like
Kitchen Finks , Polukranos, World Eater , Walking Ballista that interact with counters.
Great primer of Nissa planeswalker for the Devotion staples cardlist,it gives the strongest points for choosing her as the planeswalker alongside a playset of Kiora, Master of Depths, which I'm playing for the grindy Octopus emblem. One Nissa plant fights anything on the board and puts three Octopus fighters in play ad nauseum.
I also don't like Courser of Kruphix since the printing of Fatal Push makes a Courser an easy target for a one CMC spot removal spell. Nissa goes around that while adding blockers into play. I prefer Leyline of Vitality since it adds 1 life for each ETB creature, potentially offers infinite life for the Turntimber Ranger and Arcane Adaptation combo. And it is a turn one GG devotion already by itself, and makes your fatties, just that much bigger. I'm considering a Summoning Trap build like the old standard meta, even if the thing does whiff but it buries all the chaff at the bottom of the library. Counterspells are a pain too so if we bait a counterspell with some other creature and get a Ruric into play, then it should be a worthy early explosive play. In my other Modern deck, Bant Consciption, I've had a weak TRON player counter my Lotus Cobra, played Summoning Trap into Sovereigns of Lost Alara and got the Conscription next turn for GG. At least 3 maindeck and enough decent Fattys should help too.
Since @CurdBros is developing a UG variant, I'd suggest Kira, Great Glass-spinner as extra protection for any board threats and a flying beater. It's a staple of any UG build and Bant Aggro too.
I wonder if a Pact player can make a one-of Sovereigns of Lost Alara and a one-of Eldrazi Conscription make the cut.
With 3CMC its not soooo easy. He must still loosing something to use Revolt. After that, Fatal Push kill any of our "support" creatures.
UU isn't easy to cast. That is imho not a staple in a UG Build. in a heavy removal game i would play Shapers' Sanctuary or Asceticism and only as a Sideboardcard.
It has the same problem like all auras. you can trade 1:2 if your opponent use a removal. Second Problem you need still a evasion effect. I would consider this in a enchantment heavy build , not in a pact build. In the last time green become some very strong Enchantments like Sandwurm Convergence. Something like with Eidolon of Blossoms and Courser of Kruphix (he is a Enchantment , too), you could brew a strong Green Enchantment Devotion List, because Echantment are permanents, that fits very well in a devotion list with Nykthos.
@MirageJenius
Hope i helped a little bit.
Yeah, I agree that the list A.S. has provided is probably a fantastic starting place for the aggro-combo build. My only deviations were swapping Courser for Nissa VoZ (I'm back there now), one less Pact and one more Garruk R/VC, and replacing Slime, Witness, and an Oath with Atarka and 2x Polukranos. Plus a very different SB. Running 4 Oaths and Pacts created too many tricky situations for my taste.
Slime is a card that has not impressed me. The times that I'm getting closed out by something I can't work around, usually one such destroy effect isn't enough. Maybe I'm not using it properly. I have a Terastodon in the SB.
Polukranos and Ballista are always fantastic.
Agreed on all points. No deck, much less Humans, warrants a serious MD shift (since no deck is more than 5% of the meta). One of the small issues is having 9+ vulnerable PWs is a lot to SB out. But the Garruks can make at least some immediate impact, so they're a bit better I suppose.
I was going to say that I think Garruk CoB decks and BTE decks are a different animal, but I'm actually not so sure. Pact is the key here: it synergizes with both BTE and Garruk CoB. BTEs will primarily be in there to speed up the turn where Garruk CoB lands. I'd be interested to see what the result looks like.
The problem with Garruk CoB is that it's costly and conditional on creature-densities. If it's not reliably finding or playing something that's a Titan or better, you might as well just play the Titan.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Thanks for speaking up against what probably seemed to you as a rather ignorant comment from me about playing 3 Nykthos! The question arose from the fact that I've been trying to build a consistent devotion deck - with resilient devotion such as Rhonas, Oath of Nissa and planeswalkers - rather than an explosive devotion build that you have had success with. I think this comes from my personality in that I'm always thinking long term - top decking Burning-Trees turn 7 with an empty hand sounds fun! ... - but you've shown that devotion can work at a high level, and honestly I've never tried the Burning-Tree build before!
Here are my two current builds: one is the "consistent" devotion list (same as the one posted a few days ago), the other is the explosive (Burning-Tree) devotion list.
4x Arbor Elf
2x Birds of Paradise
4x Walking Ballista
1x Scavenging Ooze
3x Ripjaw Raptor
1x Chameleon Colossus
1x Whisperwood Elemental
1x Primeval Titan
1x Hornet Queen
1x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
Planeswalkers (9)
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
2x Garruk Relentless
2x Nissa, Steward of Elements
1x Nissa, Vital Force
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Oath of Nissa
Instants (2)
2x Summoner's Pact
Lands (21)
7x Forest
4x Windswept Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Stomping Ground
1x Breeding Pool
3x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Kessig Wolf Run
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Grafdigger's Cage
3x Blood Moon
2x Kozilek's Return
2x Obstinate Baloth
2x Creeping Corrosion
1x Polukranos, World Eater
1x Acidic Slime
1x Carnage Tyrant
4x Arbor Elf
2x Birds of Paradise
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
2x Walking Ballista
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Courser of Kruphix
1x Primeval Titan
1x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1x Dragonlord Atarka
1x Hornet Queen
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
2x Garruk Relentless
1x Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
Enchantments (8)
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Oath of Nissa
Instants (4)
4x Summoner's Pact
Lands (21)
7x Forest
4x Windswept Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Stomping Ground
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Kessig Wolf Run
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Grafdigger's Cage
3x Blood Moon
2x Kozilek's Return
2x Obstinate Baloth
2x Creeping Corrosion
1x Chameleon Colossus
1x Acidic Slime
1x Carnage Tyrant
Walking ballista is really really strong in creature matchups, the only reason I do not play it is because summoner's pact can only find green creatures. If i was playing 4x primal command I would play 4x ballista.
I love polukranos, I have recently moved to playing 1 main. It wins a surprising number of games by itself (easily a 7/7 that kills a blocker or two, maybe an important creature if we are very lucky) and is a good 'backup' pact target as it has the same casting cost as the pact trigger. It is really really weak to path/terminate and to a lesser extent dismember, but that is about it.
My current option for creature removal is Garruk Relentless. It seems more versatile, even if it does cost 4. There are plenty of cases where I am fine paying 4 for a main deck green lightning bolt, and the ceiling of the card's power level is that it finds any creature you want the turn after you play it. Against linear noncreature decks i kill my own creature to transform him, which is a lot better than ballista. The floor of course is that it dies to bolt immediately and the 3 damage is prevented, so I board it out against jeskai, but I would board out ballista/polukranos in that matchup anyway.
I have been playing with 4x ballista and 4x primal command, and I like it. The only problem so far is that it can be 1 turn too slow, especially against decks that do not lean heavily on creatures. There is probably a proper build out there to fix those issues. I like the idea of targeting ripjaw raptor with ballista, card draw is really strong in green devotion. In testing I found it to be a little expensive on the mana side, but it seems strong against grindy matchups. I played a list like that in the Cincinnati Open, and missed day 2, 3-3 drop (nowhere close). I then sleeved up my pact list for the Classic and got top 8. My takeaway was to play what I know and focus on pact.
I think that you might want to play 4x nykthos even in the slower builds, as the mana explosion is very strong and will probably result in playing an extra impactful card on that turn. If you are disliking the legendary downsides or the colorless mana, you might want to consider increasing your total land count instead. But that depends on the mana base, it is possible that without BTE 4x nykthos is not as strong.
Regarding BTE topdeck late game... yes it can suck. I board some number out against grindy matchups as a result (and is one of the reasons I play 2x finks in the board over 4 mana baloth). But there are plenty of times where I topdeck it late and it is the key to explosively playing out my hand after multiple turns of removal and discard filling my hand with expensive cards and stripping out my ramp. It is only really weak when you are hellbent.
I really like firespout, and used to play it. I want to go back to it again, but currently I am testing engineered explosives, and initial testing is really promising.
I find my list is very weak to tribal evasion/combo decks, such as merfolk, affinity, elves, and counters company. We beat creatures using combat, hornet queen destroys fair creature combat. But against creatures with abilities or evasion we can struggle to interact. Humans is a new contender in this area, and I want my board plan for that deck to be the same as for these other creature tribal lists. My answer here is to play wraths in the board, conceding that their creatures as a whole are stronger than our mana dorks. Another answer is perhaps 4x walking ballista, but my list does not play this and it does not handle multiple x/2 creatures efficiently.
When it comes to wraths, I am only comfortable playing cards that cost 1x red
Wrath options that I tested:
* pyroclasm
* bonfire of the damned
* firepout
* kozilek's return
* engineered explosives
- pyroclasm is great, but it does not hit anthem'ed creatures fast enough (2x merfolk lords, esp with a vial in play, can race it). Humans also have larger toughness creatures now, including mantis rider. (other notable x/3 creatures include eldrazi displacer, ramuncap excavator, baral chief of compliance)
- bonfire is too expensive for my build, it cannot 100% consistently get 5 mana on turn 3 for x=2, also x=2 turn 3 on the draw is too slow in many cases. pyroclasm will always do 2 damage on turn 2, and it is easy to hold back turn 1 mana dorks until after we 'clasm, and then it is essentially 1-sided wrath anyway.
- kozilek's return is an instant, and I cannot praise it enough for this reason. This offers a lot of surprise plays, as it is easy to bait out over-extension from our opponent as they will interpret holding up 3 mana as us not having the wrath. When the whole game 1 was played at sorcery speed, it is a great gotcha card. devoid is a nice bonus, letting us shave affinity cards in the board since it kills pro-red etched champion, and it hits activated man lands by playing it on their turn after they activate them. Also goes though burrenton forge tender for bonus points, and instant speed interacts favorably against collected company.
- firespout is the best standalone option right now, but it fails to kill mirran crusader (it is green), and is weaker against affinity. Also for a while the meta was such that 2 damage was enough, but right now I think 3 damage is better. I play 2 kozilek's return to recover 1 slot against affinity in my board. With death shadow on the (temporary?) decline, mirran crusader should fade away and firespout will get stronger. Used to be a lot of the top decks played multiple crusaders in the 75. The big downside vs the others is that it kills our 3/3 beasts.
BUT I really prefer engineered explosives. Its a lot harder to use but I like the potential. x=0|2 is very strong against decks which we board in wraths, and using birds and utopia sprawl (and finks + nykthos on white in an emergency), we can produce a 3rd color in rare cases. X=2 does not disrupt my build, as I only play 5 2-drop creatures (1 scooze and 4 BTW, and the nature of BTE is such that I can delay playing them for a turn since they refund their mana on ETB). Notable x=2 targets include meddling mage/thalia/merfolk lords/spreading seas/storm's creatures/leonin arbiter/tidehallow sculler/visier of remedies/melira, ect. Pretty much all the creatures which matter in the problem matchups. Unlike most of our other wrath options it hits the important humans targets even though anthems. I like that it hits both merkolk lords and spreading seas. I also like that it hits baral and electromancer while also sweeping empty the warrens tokens, which only firespout can do. It seems strong against affinity. I have no enchantment hate in my board since it does not cover enough 'real' decks, but this gives us free sideboard coverage against decks like boggles and another answer to ensnaring bridge. I do not have any results to back this up except for some testing online.
I am still bent on playing red for main deck ruric thar and sideboard spot removal, but it might be possible to splash a different color if we play engineered explosives as the sweeper. (path, gaddoc teeg, dragonlord dromoka? kiora, negate, dismember?)
I'll board it out freely, but in many matchups I am able to find an acceptable use for it. For the longest time I hated playing it, but as I got more aware of my options when holding a summoner's pact, I kept finding lines where I wished I had access to that option.
It is a key card against a top deck in the metagame, and is medium against the field, almost never fully dead. For me that makes the cut for the main deck given that I have 4x 0-mana creature tutors in summoner's pact.